140 How Examined Weakness Becomes Formative (Voices from the Kellia—with David Clayton)

Geoff Holsclaw and regular guest David Clayton continue their monastic series, exploring how “unexamined strength becomes brittle” while "examined weakness becomes formative." 

Using desert monasticism as a “laboratory of revelation,” they describe how removing distractions exposes deeper emotions, thoughts, and disordered attachments, all of which invite humility, integration, and grace. They also address caricatures of asceticism as self-striving by framing the practices as the stripping away of self-reliance in order to receive everything by grace.

Dive deeper in our new book, Landscapes of the Soul: How the Science and Spirituality of Attachment Can Move You into Confident Faith, Courage, and Connection, and learn about our trainings and other resources at embodiedfaith.life.

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Transcript

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Welcome and Series Setup 

Geoff Holsclaw: Welcome back to the Attaching to God podcast. I'm Geoff Holsclaw. We are exploring a neuroscience informed discipleship and spiritual formation. As always, this is produced by the Center for Embodied. Faith. This episode we're gonna be looking at how examined weakness becomes formative for us, how examining our weakness becomes formative.

We are continuing our monastic series where we are looking at the roots of Christian monasticism and Eism as resource for discipleship and formation today. And as always, we are. Joined by our regular guest, David Clayton. He's kind of like our field reporter for spirituality, or as we say, the voice from the kill, uh, which are the monastic cells in the desert.

That was like a region in the innermost desert. David is a spiritual director, a supervisor of directors, a trained behavior analyst, and a facilitator of psychological safety among many things. But so David, welcome. We're so glad that you're here again today.

David Clayton: Hi Geoff, really real joy to be in conversation with you again and with all your wonderful listeners. Yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: we had talked previously about the place of humility. And we're kind of going to continue that humility, honesty. But you often say that unexamined strength becomes brittle, but examine strength becomes formative, becomes. Or I said that wrong. Unexamined strength becomes brittle but examined.

Weakness there, I got it right. Examined, weakness becomes formative. Did I get

David Clayton: a bit of a mouthful, eh? But, yeah, I mean, this, this, comment came out of an experience after doing a, keynote for a theological seminary recently. And, working in a different context, working with different people, and it reminded me of, an experience of, putting an old shed together. When you, when we moved the shed.

The, you know, we took it apart in one place and put it back together in another, and the panels had warped, there were rotten bits that we hadn't noticed, the nails were rotten through, you know, there was, there was things that we noticed, so context makes a difference. And I think utilizing the analogy of the desert fathers and the statement unexamined strength becomes brittle examined weakness becomes formative.

This is not a motivational rhetoric, although it does sound very much that way, you know, super coach that I am. Uh, it's really an anthropological diagnosis, I think. And the desert points. 

Desert Removes Illusion

David Clayton: Through the desert fathers and mothers, in their theology, that, human beings are not transformed by performance, but they're transformed by truth.

So if we access the truth through our experience, which is the desert tradition, really. So it brings us today and this is, this is really, uh, the desert tradition. I suppose we could look at it in one way doesn't set out to produce heroes. Um, you know, there, there is like, oh, the, this person's a great saint or they're a great saint, you know, that kind of hero aspect of that, and there's nothing really wrong with that because, you know, great faith deserves respect. But the desert set out to remove illusion. So Athanasius described Antony the Great, talking about when he withdrew. His temptations increased the, the whole experience of being human intensified. Not because his holiness failed, but because the distractions were removed. And

think, you know, in this day and age where distraction is easy, information is overload, you know, media bombards us with. Information to, to disaffect our perspective, shall we say, without diving into that whole M -A - U

Geoff Holsclaw: We can

David Clayton: Sorry,

Geoff Holsclaw: We can get to the cultural critique in a second. For sure. You had talked about how the desert is a pressure cooker, which I think is what you were alluding to. But could you fill out a little bit about that? That, like first side of that phrase, how, um, unexamined strength becomes brittle.

'cause that sounds counterintuitive, right? That like our strengths are our strengths and so they should be strong. So how is it that they become brittle or maybe set a different way? How do we create our identity around strengths, but that long term becomes a problem.

David Clayton: Well, if we stick with the analogy of the moving the shed, I think that's on LinkedIn, just anyway, by the way. The, the, the shed seemed okay in its context. You know, sat there looking strong, looking sturdy, until it was, examined, uh, taken apart, relocated. You know, so when we say, for instance, move to a formative aspect of desert, You know, and we could say the desert is a laboratory of revelation, but we'll come on to that, shortly.

But we can expect, according to Antony, our temptations to our last breath. We can't, you know, we, if we're in a context, if we're in the same job, if we're in the same social context, if we're in the same culture. Um, then therefore we will feel our brains are designed to work that way. Neuroscience says that, you know, we'll feel safe, we'll see.

So, put ourselves in a different context, we feel a little bit wobbly. You know, so this is really what we're looking at is, is being able to accept with humility that we haven't got all the T's crossed and the I's dotted. However, you know, however many certificates we've got, however, you know, which income we've got, however, which strong culture we're part of, you know, as a human being.

It takes examination, and the desert presents that, so, so it would be like modern stress physiology confirms, this is Robert Sapolsky, if I remember rightly, demonstrating that an organism revert to dominant regulatory patterns under stress. So if we are tested, then often our brittleness is revealed.

So if we go into a process, you know, I mean, strength is not virtue. It's a reliable regulatory strategy. It may, you know, like a intellectual mastery. Emotional Composure, Relentless Productivity, Disciplined Spirituality or Charismatic Leadership. I'm sure you have seen this within church patterning and, you know, some of those within the business patterning, within the world in general.

Um, you know, when strength becomes identity, it fuses with the self. So, John the Dwarf, one of, what, from the Abbot of Agmatra, Batram, says, I've seen monks who labored greatly and fell because they trusted their own works. This is about realizing our own frailty and that failure is good, helpful, being, you know, neuroplasticity, you put it, you know, that we're not putting our strength in performance or misplaced trust in performance, to be more clear. Neuroplasticity research shows that repeated strategies strengthen neuro -efficiency. but reduce flexibility. So under stress, rigid pathways dominate. is a kind of brittleness. 

Scripture on Weakness

David Clayton: You know, we could look at, two biblical themes. Since we're on the theological thing, let's, let's put some scripture in there.

Hey,

Geoff Holsclaw: let's do it.

David Clayton: So first, um, Genesis 11, Babel, the tower, human strength organized, without a self -knowledge collapses under its own ambition.

Was great tower. But not the self -knowledge of reverence of God in that aspect. Second point, maybe something like Paul's thorn in 2 Corinthians 12, 7, 9. Paul doesn't deny the weakness, he accepts it. It has become an integrated part of his experience. He pleads for its removal, but God's response is simply His grace is sufficient for him.

That power is made perfect in weakness. Grace does not remove the weakness, it integrates it. So this strength unexamined resists grace. Maybe.

Weakness examined invites it. Maybe.

Grace Effort and Asceticism

Geoff Holsclaw: All right, so I want to jump in because sometimes there's a misperception that monasticism or asceticism that the Christians in the desert, had this really high bar that there's maybe even it's faulted for kind of a self striving for a relentless pursuit, that it's under their own power, that they're not relying on grace.

So these are sometimes the caricatures of the desert fathers, or just maybe some people's understanding asceticism as a kind of a self-righteousness or a works righteousness that doesn't just rest in the accomplished grace of God. But I know you're, you're trying to tell a different story. So in one sense how does that kind of fit with the strength and the kind of weakness as well as the receiving grace or striving under our own power?

Could you kind of, I know maybe we're a little off topic here, but like, I know sometimes people wonder about that.

David Clayton: That's beautiful. And it does fit. And hopefully it'll be a short tangent. Leaning.

Geoff Holsclaw: Before we hit record for all of you listed before, I was like, David, how long do you think this is gonna, he listed all these times and it was not short. And then he is and that's if we don't have tangents. So here we are on

David Clayton: Ten minutes in. Tangent. Grand.

Geoff Holsclaw: so here we go. So yeah, grace, effort, striving.

David Clayton: I'd go forward in time from the Desert Fathers a little to lean into a contemplative, well, the doctrine of the church relating to prayer according to the Catholics, centuries of Avila or centuries of Jesus. One of the key statements is all is grace. And I think the recognition of the, the monastic, the monos, is stepping aside from distraction to know god therefore their aim is to enter into small deaths to learn to die well to end well so so it is a matter of coming to the end of self i mean that's very much an evangelical charismatic principle you know when we come to the end of ourselves you know we enter into revival when we press into that point beyond the self so, so that's where grace and mercy activate, where one actually becomes operating out of humility and not out of strength.

That doesn't negate the reality that we have a capacity and a mind, and we should do all that we can with what we have. for the glory of God and then believe that God will do all that he can because he is God and loves us. So I think that would be, to frame it in the Desert Fathers, many of them ran to the desert to get rid of the hindrances, get to, to let go using the Ignatian pattern of disordered affections, to use that kind of frame, um, so that they could experience grace, that they could face.

the raw reality of leaning into God. you know, and, and so really, so assesis towards apatheia is, is the stripping away of the strength of self to receive the grace of God.

Was that okay? Please

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah I think so. I just trying to connect the dots, for us, Amer American evangelicals who, you know, are living very far away from any of these kind of, like, ways of thinking and, and I think. So what I was hearing is that in, in a sense, like ais asceticism is a training or an exercise you think of like a gym or like a gymnasium, a discipline.

And it's really, it's a, it's a training to come to the end of yourself or to come to the end of yourself striving. And so sometimes it can, and of course, you know, sin takes advantage of anything, but so sometimes this. The striving can become its own self-righteousness. And this is where like the talking about pride and, and humility, uh, and all these things come in, but really the goal is to then come to the end of yourself.

So we're just like training ourselves to come to the end of self striving. It's not. Something we glory in, but it's rather something. I liked what you said about it's, learning to die over and over is, is what, uh, the desert is supposed to do. And when we rely on our strengths, we very much are protecting ourselves against that death.

And so that's why, and then it becomes brittle over the long term. 

Desert as Revelation Lab

Geoff Holsclaw: So can you just as we keep going then, can you then talk about this idea of the desert going into the desert as a lab or a laboratory of revelation?

David Clayton: to dive in there, because that dovetails perfectly. So, it's not an anti -social withdrawal. You know, people go all, they ran from. Well, yes, some did, because some were avoiding tax. Which is, I do find that amusing. But, the general pattern was... a methodical simplification and i think if we we you know look at what we're talking about with that small deaths um so for instance abomasis um one of the worst villains in the area who became a monos and one of the the most acute uh understanders of specific wisdom said go sit in your cell and your cell will teach you everything So, so this is a removal of external reinforcement systems. So, stepping away from, your vinyl. Stepping, hey! Ha ha! Stepping away from your phone. You know, all of that kind of dopamine kicks and all that. But what, what emerges when, when, I mean, joking apart, when you step away from your vinyl, what emerges? boredom, agitation, fantasy, anger, despair, these deeper emotions bubble up.

So it gives us, a clearer view of internality of, of, you know, from an IFS point of view, the parts and what's happening, you know, from Rajesh's perspective, the legismoid, here we go again, the gizmoid, how to get it in. So. So in, in Praktikos, Evradius Pontikus talks about, if you wish to know God, first learn to know yourself. This is what the desert does. This is what, this simplification process does. So, you know, he maps eight reoccurring cognitive distortions. We've talked about before, I'll probably not dive into that too much. But, but the brilliance is this, He doesn't moralize thought. He just simply observes it.

There's no judgment involved. It's like, that is a thought, that is disordered behavior and, and thing is attached to that thought. So, it requires a detachment. know, neuroscience would call that integration. IFS would call that self -led systems. Polyvega will call that a regulated nervous system. Science backs up what Desert Fathers understood by simplicity. And that, that was a key theme of my, my recent keynote. So in, in a way, you know, we now measure what they were experiencing with an FMRI machine. You're going to Aristotle

Know Yourself Under Pressure

Geoff Holsclaw: So the desert as a laboratory of revelation, it's not. Just a revelation of God, although that did happen, right? So you have contemplations, you have visitations, you have words, right? So there is a revelation of God, but you were talking about this revelation of the self and like the ancient dictum was, know yourself like that.

Was that over

David Clayton: and over the temple. Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Aristotle. But in, in this sense, the desert. You know, the Desert Fathers and mothers, it's not just a know yourself through kind of introspection of a philosophical kind, but it's much more of a rigorous, kind of like a well, what came to mind is setting traps for yourself, but that's not quite right.

But it is, it is setting that up to see, who am I really? When I'm under pressure, I remember, and maybe I shared this before, we, uh. You know, I, I grew up in California. I was in the Central Valley. But I went to college on the coast where the, and there were like the big surfing town, Santa Cruz, California.

And I lived right by one of a very popular surfing spots, which was very, um. Guarded by the locals. We could say the locals and people would tell stories about getting really mad at other surfers for dropping in on them or kind of having bad etiquette and, and they would always pan it off as something like, but that's not how I always am.

I'm a much better person than that. And my thought always was something like, maybe that's who you really are when you're in that pressure cooker. And then something springs out of you. What if that was more, not that your true self, but it's a revelation of what's really in there. When it kind of pops out.

And so the desert is something kind of similar and where they're going to try to really, grapple with the depths of sin in, in that real sense in their lives.

David Clayton: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: So that's a laboratory of. Revelation and what they find is weakness. So how is it? 

Watchfulness and Integration

Geoff Holsclaw: So we kind of went from the unexamined.

Strength becomes brittle. We have to protect it. We have to avoid the weaknesses in our lives. Uh, we create some f kind of salt, false ego or sense of self or all those things, however we want to fill that out. Um, but then the second half is. Examined weakness becomes formative. So let's start pressing into that.

You have thoughts about how failure is diagnostic, how it doesn't disqualify us. We got lots of little beachheads here that we could go

David Clayton: Well, the nepsis, the watchfulness, is what we can call a continual fixing and halting of thought at the entrance of the heart, according to the Philogalia. So, if we're looking at this, from, say from a neuroscience point of view, that, If we are recognizing these things that are popping up, that's effect labeling and reducing amygdala activity and increasing prefrontal regulation.

So becoming known of Self is an integrative, you know, if someone were to observe a disturbed surfer, or a disturbed surfer were to observe himself, then he would be able to integrate that, yeah? Prefrontal regulation. Abbapoman teaches that, teach your mouth to say what is in your heart. This is not a confessional theater.

This is a, uh, an integrative, so silence though when rooted in fear strengthens distortion. 

Psychological Safety and Shame

David Clayton: Um, so Amy Edmondson, well -known Harvard Uh, business, school, person, and amazing author. Her research in psychological safety demonstrates the belief one can speak without relational punishment is essential for learning.

So if your surf dudes were to confess that they had Ah man, I was a real idiot then. To somebody else, in a safe environment, they would recognize that and that would be a growth and integrative thing. However, modern society tends to particularly, hold the Greek aspect of perfection or Greco -Roman aspect of perfection.

And therefore, there is a negative bias on failure. You know,

A ritual point of view, the Roman aspect of ritual is why we think when we're doing liturgy and things like that has to be done perfectly. That's where that comes from historically from the Greco -Roman pagan behaviors of religion. So it's just a little tangent.

Sorry. Um, but so, so it's about learning to become non -reactive. but observing what those responses are and that doesn't mean that one, you know, particularly because we're all different personality types, you know, uh, I mean, recent example dealing with different cultural things is like, say for instance, a, an Italian individual having a conversation with, I don't know, high impact, low impact.

So UK, You know, their, their confrontation styles are different, but even if they're just having a normative conversation, the, the Italian will be, gesturing louder volume, more intense, leaning in, slower. Um, body proximity, whereas the English person would probably be more reserved and step back. And I know obviously globalization has disaffected that cultural, um, and try to norm it.

But I think there are, there are, you know, Erin Meyer teaches wonderfully on that sort of thing. So what we're looking at, shame narrowing cognition, basically. Thank you. And moving through that, and safety expanding it. So, I'm a Sintillicate Sincletica. I always struggle with that one. Says there is a I'm not an academic, you know, there is a sorrow that leads to life and there is a sorrow that leads to death unexamined weakness leads to death shame isolation examined weakness leads to life clarity humility freedom so there is something in this confessional reality that that really I suppose leads me on to the sort of power authority and the risk of virtue You want to speak on something 

Geoff Holsclaw: before we do that,

Confession Without Condemnation

David Clayton: ask questions.

Geoff Holsclaw: was thinking about, you know, the safety to confess. Um. You know, in my context it's, oh, you have to confess your sin so you could be forgiven. You know, first John one eight, which is true. And then, which is great, but the, what I think you're kind of showing us is in the desert, the safety to confess isn't just for forgiveness, but it is it's the honesty and truthfulness in community.

A lot of times, again, back to some biases against, like I said, Christian asceticism is, a lot of times they. There's a sense of like, oh, they hate the body. Like they, you know, they're, they're being so regimented about the body, but when you read the desert sayings, you actually, there's way more sayings about not condemning your brother.

And so I kind of wanna link that, that it's actually, it not condemning your brother and then the humility. That then leads to not condemning others for their sins. Is part of that kind of communal sense of it's safe to say, what is real here? We don't have to lie about ourselves and our actions and you won't be condemned for it.

But we're seeking healing and transformation through our weakness, and if we can't speak our weakness in a safe way, then that's never gonna, that transformation will never happen. Is that is that kind of right, that idea that. That we're not supposed to condemn our brothers. There's all these stories about how someone's gonna go and condemn their brother about such and such, but then a ABBA steps in and then they do this object lesson,

David Clayton: yoke on his shoulder, leaking water out, yeah, and stuff. I think, I think you, you've nailed a key, um, key principle in the desert and, uh, you know, I, I understand it as, always putting others above yourself. I mean, the, uh, I can't remember which, however it was, but talks about If somebody sins against you, recognize that you have sinned more, that you have done that historically more.

This person you know has only done it this once, and therefore you are a worse sinner than them. You know, and that was even embedded in the architecture of the churches. In the Coptic tradition, the, the altar, area where the priests stand is, uh, an inch lower than the floor.

Geoff Holsclaw: Really interesting. Ah, that is so fascinating. So they don't stand above, they actually stand below

David Clayton: yeah, I mean, even if it's, if they're huge tall people, but yeah, but so that's the premise that, that, that, you know, this isn't just, oh, I'm ever so humble, kind of Uriah Heep, this is, this is, you know, we can be honest, there is safety in humility. And. None of us are better than anyone else. You know, whether they be deemed presbyter or diakonite and serving at the tables, they're, you know, all are equal.

I think there's some scripture somewhere about that somehow. Uh, and don't call yourself a teacher because you need to be, Better than everybody else if you're one of those. So That's yeah I think you you you nailed that point.

Geoff Holsclaw: let's go on to, you were about to shift into the power and authority, and

David Clayton: just

Geoff Holsclaw: how does that

David Clayton: on to that because I think that that dovetails and it all kind of dovetails because there isn't that you can see from that Well, I hope it presents That the power dynamic isn't hierarchical here The power dynamic is a dynamic of love and that love of God, love of Buddha, love of self, care of self.

There's, you know, we could go on, maybe we'll talk about, body and the desert, you know, I know there's some really great books out there on that sort of stuff, but it is, isn't how a lot of people perceive the asceticism. You know, I will beat myself and stuff like that. That's discipline to achieve these things.

realities.

Delayed Leadership Formation

David Clayton: So, let's look at it from a kind of an area that I know you have an interest in in church leadership. So in the desert, they delayed leadership appointments. Why? Well, because power magnifies structure. So Cassian records in his conferences that the elders warned against premature elevation of monk.

A monk must first know his thoughts before governing others. So this knowledge of self is, is absolutely necessary. How can you lead others if you don't know your own internal dialogue? You know, that's why IFS is, is a really useful system. And a lot of the neuroscience and behavioral stuff that I kind of look into and you look into, obviously because you've written on it.

Um, you know, this is so necessary. You can't, you can't, you know, you can't be a leader if, if you haven't dealt with your own pressure cooker, shall we say. And that doesn't mean a person has to be perfect, because I think those that are presenting perfect, they're the ones, you know, I like people who are, um, I think you like to use the term raw, but, but, you know, because of my personality type, I like people who are transparent, um, who their integrity is. There, you know it, you can discern it, I mean obviously I'm a behavior analyst, I can see it. Um, when that veneer's there, of, you know, that's when, you know, you tend to get worried, because what are you hiding? Why do you need to be very reserved and risk -averse to that level? Is there, is there something political, you know, and obviously there are places where political and other sort of negotiative strategies that that's required, but this is community. is human beings we're talking about here. 

Knowing Your Thoughts First

David Clayton: Uh, so this adaptive leadership theory echoes leaders must regulate anxiety rather than discharge it. So coming back to the original statement, unexamined strength in power becomes domination. Integrative

weakness in par becomes... containment in some way.

Isaac Sirian writes, Where there is humility, there is no disturbance. Now, what does that say of our world? So, humility meaning, at this point, psychological integration. No hidden fractures demanding defense. But being able to go, Yep, that's okay, I know I am not perfect. And that's

Not standing up there and going, Yep, that's okay.

I've got it all sorted. Yeah, and that would lean into more

Geoff Holsclaw: We could probably spend lots of time talking about the leadership. Philosophy and theology of the desert. We probably should, we

David Clayton: do a session on it.

Geoff Holsclaw: a whole

David Clayton: Yeah, that's a good one.

Geoff Holsclaw: about that where but I liked what you said, you know, and there's lots of different kind of modalities we could kind of look at, but is it nervous system regulation?

Is it. IFS and integrating our exiles and calming down our managers. Is it non-anxious leadership, right? So these are all just kind of different ways, but, I liked what you said is that a monk should not be elevated unless, uh, he knows his thoughts and. It kind of like the hidden thoughts and the, um, compulsive thoughts and the thoughts that cover over for the other thoughts.

You know, like unless you kind of are aware of all those different things and the permutations and strategies and personas that you adopt, then you shouldn't be elevated. And I've had lots of other conversations in other realms. Again, this is why it's like a different. Whole different episode of just, you know, how in the church we elevate, and not just the church, but often even in business, you know, we elevate people too fast.

And then that just kind of creates this vicious cycle of their vices and adds fuel to those character flaws. But we. Prioritize productivity and efficiency and decisiveness and growth and profits. And so it just covers over those things and the desert kind of takes a different view to that, which I think is great.

Contemplative Balance Explained

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, you had mentioned kind of in our pre-show kind of, uh, uh. Not debrief because that's afterwards a planning session. You had this

David Clayton: Is that what you call

Geoff Holsclaw: contemplative balance. So how do we, yeah, if you call herding, if you call herding cats preparation, but you mentioned contemplative balance.

So how does contemplative balance fit into this, the laboratory as a, or the desert as a lab of, of revelation of weakness. You know, as being this formative opportunity, what does contemplation and contemplative balance add here?

David Clayton: I think it ties in clearly to that point you mentioned, and I think, yeah, a session on looking at, tension of, I thought you used introverted, but introverted and extroverted style. Comparison with humility and how psychopathy, narcissism and other power dynamics operate within systematized and hierarchical systems to bring about outcomes.

Here we're looking at those outcomes, but we're looking at the way those outcomes are achieved rather than those outcomes. There's a key difference there. So, it does it. does doesn't stand alone in looking at its sort of contemplative, balance. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of, epic Tarsus. Now again, not an academic, so I may have said that wrong.

That's okay. But this is basically the perpetual growth. So if we're looking, you know, at looking at ourselves and those who are influencing us, if we, if we define leadership as those who influence, because you can have those who lead without having a position. Um, it's that perpetual growth into God that there is no static perfection.

Well, there is Jesus, but I don't think I'm, you know, I'm always at the beginning. I am nothing, you know, and I just know one because Christ is awesome. So maximum, the confessor teaches that passions are not annihilated, but trans. Weaknesses not eradicated. It's a reordering. So this is, this is, you know, if we were the, the integrative aspect of, neuroscience or, for your IFS, the parts becoming part of a self -led system. Um, No, no expert. So, is not an escape from weakness per se. And when I say that, I mean I'm leaning into what the Desert Fathers would utilize as contemplation. 

Prayer Anchors Truth

David Clayton: Currently doing some work around mental prayer. And the mental prayer is the stage of a cesis. or ascetic theology before mystical theology the mystical theology is the contemplative in my understanding so but we'll use it as contemplation as a prayerful point of uh adoration worship prayer towards god a movement of the heart towards god shall we say to keep it simple but this is sustains an attention to truth and if you're going to be learning of self and doing the internal work then truth needs to be the guiding principle, otherwise you become, an illusion.

Really, you know, prayer without, prayer without holiness is just an illusion. So, you know, I, I, I often come into systems and, and, and people are going, Oh, you know, we have a great prayer system and this is up now. And I just look at the people's lives and listen. Now it doesn't mean they have to be veneer holy.

Let's be clear. There's a difference. There's a difference. There's something of depth. So Dan Siegel's work on integration defines mental health as linking of differentiated parts into a coherent functioning. So that's the classical contemplation under scientific description. That's the point of being in the desert. To face the truth of the disordered self and allow the silence. And God's mercy and love to order the self, if we're using this desert framing.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. The, coming back to just the, the theme and topic of this podcast, the Attaching to God podcast, those who go out into the desert, there's a lot of negations, right? So a lot of against things. But it is the pressure cooker of the desert is it reveals to use that language of it's a laboratory of revelation.

It reveals our disordered attachments so that then we can, by God's grace, create a more. Secure attachment with God, and they went into the desert seeking a more robust experience and expression of God's love and then God's love for others. Uh. All these things we've been talking about is kind of the, the truth emerging the strengths being stripped away as these disordered, or false attachments so that we can, in a sense, truly attach to God.

Not that we do that work, but that we can then. Come to the truth that God is attaching to us, that God's love is coming to us. God's grace is coming to us. If we were just be honest, like you were saying with our weakness, is that as, is that

David Clayton: it, I'll get my coat. Job done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'll get my coat, mate. Job done.

Geoff Holsclaw: So you had this

David Clayton: I've got a few, yeah, no, no, there's a few bits we can, we can

Failure As Sacrament

Geoff Holsclaw: But you had this idea of failure as a sacramental event. So why don't we

David Clayton: well, I think, I think,

Geoff Holsclaw: landing the proverbial plane.

David Clayton: think, I think that follows on nicely from what you said, you know, if we look at, if we were to look at what you just said and coin it as a sacramental event. event sorry and hold it in the context so i was thinking about the cross then it was hard to hold speaking and thinking about the cross at the same time my goodness me so if we were to think about the context of the passion the cross you know we're moving into into lent now you know and it will soon be easter so the cross It's a big failure, but it's, it's the high enthronement of the Son of God in his victory. Uh, I think it's Raymond Brown, a, uh, Catholic theologian, describes the imagery of the death. The three crosses with the two, two thieves either side and Christ central and holds that as an imagery of, royal enthronement.

 so, but it's, it's, you know, it all seems to go wrong at that point. Anyone who's done the Ignatian exercises know they come to that point and, and, and they have to switch their head off of what comes next.

so that they can enter into the where's where is god now what has happened i thought this was going to be this and then it isn't because often in our lives we have this cognitive dissonance of i'm you know i'm going to go and build a barn because i need to expand my farm and i've got all this wheat and then god has a different idea and he takes the farmer's soul that night we are faced by daily aspects of survival, which brings in our limbic system, our survival processes, but Christianity goes against that.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

David Clayton: So, I've just got a little sign flash up. I don't know if you've got that, Geoff. No? We're good. Okay, as long as we're good. So, the desert normalizes our repeated confessions, our failure, after failure, after failure, after failure, after failure, because the desert just doesn't. doesn't care it

is it's it's a hard coal face it's not shame but to prevent concealment small frequent exposures prevent catastrophic collapse So if we face this actual reality of not perfect and that's okay, to the point of growing, not just going, Oh, that's just me.

No, it's not just you. You can, any of us can be better. So modern resilience theory shows that a system that fails to safely adopt, sorry, adapt our systems that suppress error, fracture for the desert. built resilient souls so there's that wonderful modern world of resilience everybody wants to be resilient now well they need to pray they need to learn to contemplate and pray properly and have good spiritual direction obviously so I don't know if I said that clearly.

I'm going to read it again. Modern resilience theory shows that systems that fail safely adapt. Systems that suppress error fracture. So therefore, it comes back to the original statement of observing. Integrating, denying, fracturing.

Geoff Holsclaw: so the desert and all really spiritual formation is supposed to be that safe place to fail so that we can grow rather than hiding our failures and creating a long-term chain reaction where we become. The opposite of resilience. And we live outside of God's grace. We're not connected to God's love for others and for ourselves. So we gotta go into the desert. Gotta go in the desert.

Nepsis Watchfulness Practice

David Clayton: yeah, not everybody has that opportunity, but what is the desert? You know, it's this simplification, this stripping back, this apatheia, this nepsis of continual... You know, the key thing I always encourage, and it's been in, a retreat I led, for the Methodist leaders. over here in the uk and then it was in the the keynote for the theological seminary is nepses nepses nepses nepses watchfulness um an actual not what because there's i mean we haven't really got time to go into it but it's like thought but it was what's attached to that thought and what is the behavior after that thought you know this is deep slowed down um reflective discernment that requires a good spiritual director to walk alongside to go and go well i noticed this this and this does that sound right and you're going well if it's this this and this how is that happening you know the the who the why the where the what the the aristotle in questioning you know That kind of thing. So unexamined strength becomes brittle because it fuses identity. It resists feedback. It collapses under pressure. Examined weakness becomes formative because it invites attention. It permits integration and it creates space for that wonderful word grace. So

the desert fathers were not fleeing the world and you know this is something that people go I need to go to desert I need to run off I need to go to burning man Yeah, it's not it's they were conducting the most sustained study of human formation in christian history they discovered grace does not bypass structure it inhabits truth so the question is not whether weakness appears it's whether it is examined in silence in safety In community and above all before God. So there has to be that good relationship with God or bad relationship with God. I mean, you look at Mary of Egypt, what an example. You know, couldn't cross the threshold of a church and took the rest of her life learning to know God.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm. Mm-hmm. In your opinion, it's not just your opinion, this is the. The gleaned wisdom coming out of the desert over many centuries. We've kind of covered a lot of ground through strength and identity becoming brittle the desert at a laboratory of revelation, the need for balance. And we just wanna, especially for those who are gonna be listening to this during the season of Lent and the sacrament, the failure as a sacramental event.

That, you know, this is a time of stripping things back so that things can be revealed. It's not that we glory in stripping back and we're so good at fasting, or we're so good at being generous or, you know, all those disciplines, but rather they're just supposed to then create this opportunity for truth to emerge, which then, allows God's grace to then fill us up again. And so that's the goal and the hope for all of us. Do you have any one last sentence or two as we finish up?

Read The Desert Sayings

David Clayton: think, I think it's important. Um, to, to recognize that, as, as you've mentioned previously, that the Desert Fathers are not this kind of, scary weird blokes who've just cleared off to the desert and are beating themselves up and doing stuff like that. That, that the actual, High end of science shows that neuroscience in particular, and behavioral science and all of this emotional intelligence stuff, it shows that these principles.

that they were intuitively living. So, so, you know, it's well worth reading the apothagmatropatrum. It's what the, the sayings of desert father, you know, and the fathers and of course the desert mothers as well. But, there is, there is something to glean and learn from just reading and what I would describe and you, you know, I'd use this regularly in spiritual direction from the direct teases is just walk with the sayings.

Walk with these historic members of the Christian family and learn, learn what you learn, learn when you're out with the ground under your feet with your experience and pray as you can, not as you can't. Pray as you do, not as you don't, you know. So, so maybe this might be, or, you know, however, whenever this gets released, it might be an opportunity to just read and go, what, what, what have, what has this got to say, but read it slowly, you know, and take into consideration silence, safety, community.

And the presence of God,

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm. Yes. Amen. 

Closing Thanks And Next Steps

Geoff Holsclaw: Thank you all for being here with us for listening to this extended field report from the Voice From the Kill You with David Clayton. Thank you for being on with us. David. Please, uh, if you have questions, you know, throw them onto the post on Substack for the Center for Invited Faith.

If you have any questions follow up or other things you'd love to hear us talk about, we'd love to get that feedback. David, thank you for your time. Thank you for being on

David Clayton: not a problem. Geoff, it has been an absolute joy and I hope your leaders, not leaders, your readers and listeners, enjoy, enjoy this conversation. And I'd be really interesting to hear, people's thoughts and feedback. And if anyone wants to pick up the conversation, please, feel free to get in touch.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yes, and all that will be in the show notes for how you can contact us and contact David. Well, thank you so much and we'll be talking soon.