ICF in the NEWS!

In this conversation, Natalie Hood and Manny Sanchez delve into the world of ICF (Insulated Concrete Form) pools, addressing common misconceptions, discussing design flexibility, construction processes, and the advantages of ICF pools over traditional methods. They explore the speed of construction, maintenance requirements, and the environmental benefits of ICF pools, while also touching on finishing options and the future of this innovative building method.

takeaways

• ICF pools are often misunderstood and seen as a trend.
• They offer significant design flexibility without limitations.
• Waste management is more efficient with ICF pools compared to traditional methods.
• The construction process for ICF pools can be faster due to fewer subcontractor dependencies.
• ICF pools require less maintenance due to their waterproof nature.
• They are resilient against thermal stress and environmental factors.
• ICF pools can be built in areas lacking skilled subcontractors.
• Finishing options for ICF pools are versatile and can include various materials.
• ICF pools provide a controlled environment for concrete, enhancing longevity.
• The future of ICF pools looks promising as awareness and technology improve.

Sound Bites

• "ICF pools take longer to build?"
• "ICF pools are forgiving."
• "ICF pools are waterproof."

Chapters

00:00
Design Flexibility and Construction Efficiency

01:45
Design Flexibility with ICF Pools

05:34
Integrating Traditional Methods with ICF

10:56
Comparing Build Times: ICF vs. Shotcrete

17:23
Maintenance Considerations for ICF Pools

20:10
Durability and Environmental Resilience of ICF Pools

24:36
Compatibility with Modern Finishes

Revdup Apparel
a custom apparel company built for the pool industry. Founded by pool professionals

The Grit Game
The Grit Game, is not just playing the game, we’re changing it. 500+ years industry experience,

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Welcome back to Myth Busting Wednesdays. We now return to our host, Natalie Hood of the Grit Game, for the conclusion of her chat on ICF pools with industry guru Manny Sanchez in progress.

SPEAKER_04 1:15

I've talked about it before, but growing up, my dad did a lot of construction and landscaping. And anytime there was a massive storm, and there's the rainy months in California where it just rains and rains and it washes out all of that irrigation and you know washes out all of those freshly planted, you know, bulbs and things of that nature. But that's such a good point that with ICF, it's oh it's easy to dispose of, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Like it's you're gonna like well, what I tell people to do all the time is right, we you know, we go we go out with a design plan where hey the pool is 18 by 36, right? And we find out that wow, we gotta cut a uh foot off of each side of the pool, right? I said if you didn't over dig, give the customer the extra one foot of pool, right? And guess what? You have no waste, right? You know, if you have an extra block, then you take it back with you and you use it on the next job, right? Whereas, you know, where on other installations, that's like, wow, that's we gotta we gotta be right on, right? And that's not necessarily the case for ICF. So, yes, to ask your question in reference to waste, there's much less waste because the product is getting used, it's putting in. What doesn't get used, you reuse it, and the waste that is there again, it's just foam. What do you do with it?

SPEAKER_04 2:34

Yeah, minimal. Would you say that ICF limits design flexibility?

SPEAKER_02 2:40

No, you build anything with it.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

So you have curves, steps, benches, vanishing edges. No issue there.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

So there's no design limitations.

SPEAKER_04 2:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

When you think about first, what's the first thing that comes to mind? Like, hey, if I gotta modify this block, can I cut it? Well, unlike your CNU block or a paver where you need a special tool, right? ICF block, you just go out with your handsaw, you can cut it. So let's just say you need a radius. We have a form that'll tell you how much of the block you gotta cut so you can be able to bend it, right? Okay, some manufacturers sell blocks with the radius already built into it. Okay, some manufacturers will build you an entire pool made out of foam. Okay, and that's a whole other concept, a whole different process for a whole other different discussion.

SPEAKER_04 3:32

Think of me like diving into like a foam pool where like I sink in and you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 3:37

It's not like going to your local Burger King, right? Yeah, there you go. Right. But uh, but you know, there's just it it's literally it's just it's limited by your imagination, right? If you're willing to put the work into like cutting the blocks as to how you have to form it, it's just like you can do anything with concrete. You you go anywhere, you you go to Disneyland, you see all the concrete products that are there, right? Yeah. Most of the things that are made out of concrete. It's just it's what you can form. But the difference is like, well, if you're forming with lumber and uh or you're buying pre-engineered forms, you know, it's you still gotta form it. Well, it's it's kind of the same thing with ICF, but you were modifying a foam block, which is easy to cut and easy to brace.

SPEAKER_04 4:20

So then it sounds like you know, module shaping uh and it's really well it it's cut to fit capacity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

You just you know what? If you end up with a spot right there, you just it's four foot spot, you're gonna go get my little knife. I'm gonna show you what knife looks like the only one right here. Okay, it's and you cut it. And you you you slide it in. We have an adhesive that glues the block back together. Very familiar. One product is very similar to you go to Home Depot, you buy something, everybody's bought it. It's called the Great Stuff, egg snatching foam. You spray it.

SPEAKER_04 4:57

That is I remember that spray. I remember the commercials for that spray. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Well, if it's gap fills gaps.

SPEAKER_04 5:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Um, so that is what we use to in in situations, most of the blocks, almost all the blocks, all the blocks out there that are so depending on regardless of manufacture, they're all interlocking. They got ways or, you know, like a Lego, right? You sit it and it goes into place, right? And you stagger them and they lock in, right? You eventually reach a joint where you're gonna we we call it a marriage joint, where it's basically a place where the blocks don't meet right, right? So you'll have a marriage joint. So, you know, so there's there's there's he and there's she, right? And you use the you use the foam to bond them together. Brace it, then it's ready for the poor.

SPEAKER_04 5:44

Okay, that makes sense. So I guess when I, you know, and you know, we talked about back in the old days, so I do imagine that there are still some traditional methods that are probably still preferred.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Um preferred? Like um, absolutely. So, you know, there's there's ways where we can utilize ICF with traditional construction materials, right? Like, well, we'll build an ICF pool. Um, we'll you know, well, sometimes it's just easier to use lumber and the form step, right? Use CMU block. Okay, or or form a step with rebar and and shoot it with shock creek. In fact, they work very well together. So, in instance, a shock creek cool crew could potentially form floors and steps up the time after pouring the concrete, saving a lot of time, right? They can be used together, I guess essentially what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_04 6:39

So, are there any limitations when you're working with ICF pools or in pool designs, if you will? Well, I'm gonna think long and hard about that one.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

No kidding. No.

SPEAKER_04 6:49

Short answer. Short answer.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

There is no real limitations. In fact, it's substantially easier to form with ICF than it is traditional lumbar products, you know, and just kind of you know what we've been talking about. The foam is easy to cut, the foam is easy to hear, right? You you you know, I'm sure there's some applications out there. You know, if you're if you're putting in um a Lexin window or something, right? You need some more reinforcement there, right? I mean, the foam is not holding the water in. That's that's the main thing we gotta tell people here is you still got a concrete wall, right? Yeah, we just we just utilize the foam to form the concrete, right? And so, you know, it's it's there's a lot of examples we can use in the pool world. Foam is used in the construction and the things everywhere, everywhere.

SPEAKER_04 7:42

No idea. No idea. Well, so let's talk about this. Do ICF pools take longer to build?

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Well, you can fold it.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

Come on, man. Give it to us.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

You know what time it is? Wednesday vibes on the fucking pools.

SPEAKER_05 9:04

It's a few start and stay start. Check out receptors.com.

SPEAKER_04 9:10

Well, so let's talk about this. Do ICF pools take longer to build?

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Well, you can pull it out.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

True raw, honest answer. Come on, man. Manny, give it to us.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

So it's all gonna depend on who's doing the work, right? Like your typical ICF installation kind of goes like this. So we're gonna excavate, we're going to form, rebar, floor, right? Somewhere in there's plumbing and electric, but we're not talking about those.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

We'll talk about that later.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Okay, but you know, with Shock Creek, you excavate, rebar, shoot, right? If you if somebody's doing that in-house, which is not a lot of companies out there, right? Like, you know, that's one, two, three days. Okay, where, but that's not the case. You know, most people don't have their own shop creet rig. So usually there's a schedule that you kind of have to abide to. Right? So let's just say, hey, so if you have an in-house crew and they're doing ICF pools, hey, I excavated today. It didn't have to be perfect. I excavated, we started forming our walls. Maybe it takes two to three days to form this pool, depending on the complexity. But it's not brack breaking work. Each block weighs about 15 pounds, right? And it's a good workout. And yeah, and they over a course of a week, a couple days, depending on the size of the pool, the complexity of it, they can have the walls up, they can have the plum, they can have everything with it. The only way traditional build builds that is if you have all those contractors ready to go, right? But that's not normally the case. We excavate, we got the rebar guy's got to come out, he ties a rebar. Okay, we know he's done, right? Well, somewhere in there too, we have inspections, right? But you know, we gotta wait for inspection. We don't dare call the shockri guy until we're finalizing our inspection, right? So is that two weeks, three weeks, four weeks? Well, that's probably where the big difference right there happens. We just call for inspection. So we just had an ICF block inspector here, right? Or, you know, and he's he's inspecting that wall, or he inspected the shock re pool. Well, the thing about the ICF contractor, he's gonna call a concrete pump and some and some concrete, it's gonna show up at the job site, and somebody's gonna pour it, right? Where with the shock creek guy, we're all like, well, we're three weeks out. So now we're waiting three weeks for the pool to be shot. Where during this whole time, this ICF pool has gone through waterproofing. You know, maybe we started the deck, we put in an auto cover, we we've done all these things, and we're we're ready for plaster. Where on the shock creep pool, maybe we're just getting a shot in three weeks. Heck, longer if it rained, right? You know, if it rained, then it eroded the walls, and now we somebody's got to go back in and clean up under all the rebar or things of that sort. I mean, every pool builder has that horror story where right, especially in areas where it rains. I mean, I live in Arizona, it don't rain like that. But where now it's hot where you guys live. Yeah, right. But you know, in other areas where it rains more frequently, like you you tie your wall, it's time to go. Because, you know, it's gonna rain in about four days. Somebody better be over here to shoot that pool. So that's something I don't have to worry about.

SPEAKER_04 12:24

So when we're talking about actual build time, what does that look like versus let's say Shock Creek?

SPEAKER_02 12:29

So again, part of this is like right now, it's not a strong pool economy, right? People are waiting for work, right? So it's like, hey, somebody's available in the next couple days, they come in a week, and typically I've seen pools built right now in 2026, four to five weeks, right? And that's people are flying through that. Okay, when we're busy like we were during COVID, you're people waiting for Shock Creek six months. Well, the ICF builders that I worked with during COVID, they were still finishing their pools in four to five weeks, okay, because they weren't reliant on those subcontractors, right? And you know, and ICF is very forgiving, very forgiving. So let's say, like one thing about Shock Creek, you you can't you can't mid-shoot, right? Like, it's gotta go, or else you get cold joints, which interferes with the strength of the vessel. I, you know, an ICF build, this is on the wall. Cold joints in the wall are irrelevant. They're not as important as they know. We want you to pour it all together. We want it all to be together, right? But a common vessel for us with ICF, and and I know I'm I'm going to left build, right build, and I'm doing all these things right now.

SPEAKER_04 13:44

No, I love it. I'm loving this.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

We could pour a floor with the ICF wall, right? Put up our dowels, our rebar, stack our wall, right, for the wall, and waterproof the inside of that, and we have a pool and it'll hold up. Right? Where with with with Chakri, it's it's the strength is in the monoport. It's all together and it's strong together, right? So back to answer your question, you know, what's faster, right? It's it's all gonna depend on who and what's available, right? I like uh an ICF pool because you are in control of your destiny, right? Like I know you want that. Yeah, you know, and it's let's talk about draws too, right? You know, yeah, so you know, it's uh I had a builder tell me he he loved this concept, and it this was one of our initial like um guinea pigs. He um, you know, he goes, he he told me he goes, well man, he the cost was pretty close to what my normal shock creep was. But what I loved about this is like draws in Arizona, they get they get money after the poor. Right? I excavated, I paid my excavator, right? And I've had all these people going and I was able to collect it where it's it's it's Monday, and by Friday, I'm collecting my concrete draw. Right? So anybody that worked that week was able to get paid, right? Or it they didn't necessarily stress their their bank account. For like if when you're reliant on a subcontractor, um and uh and and nothing against shock creators, they're amazing what they do, they're amazing, right? But you know, here's the thing, right? If you gotta wait five weeks to get paid, because we're waiting for the next phase of construction, right?

SPEAKER_04 15:32

What what motivation that would not motivate me to wait for it?

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Well, and and most builders build more than one pool at a time. Oh yeah, for some going on. Yeah three, four, five, what if you you you got ten pools? And you're you're you're out all this cash before you get the next draw. So where ICF like and reference the speed, who cares about all the other benefits, right? I mean, which to me are a no-brainer if I'm a consumer looking to buy a pool. It's just like, hey, for a builder, it's wow, I can get through this, I can train my in-house guys to stack these blocks. I can get up to here. And by the time I I just need one person, right? One person who knows what they're doing to make sure everybody's doing everything else right. Where where with all these with all these other skills, everybody's gotta have it down. Ross, you you know which guy that doesn't do anything that worked on that side of the wall, you know, yes, right? Yeah, you know, John was on this side, Rob was on this side. John has 25 years experience. Rob started six months ago. Like Mike out in left field doing whatever Mike's doing. You know, and and Junior chasing butterflies. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so it's it can be faster and it should be faster if you if you if you apply those kind of variables to it, right? Yeah, and exactly.

SPEAKER_04 16:56

I mean, it sounds like you know, again, reduced curing delays and fewer subcontractor dependencies, right? That's kind of what all you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

You know where I've had a lot of luck with this? It's it's not necessarily like the markets where they have like if you if you're like in in Texas, like one of the big cities, there's dozens of shock creek companies, and there's it it flows, it turns, it turns, right? But you know, we get we get calls, they'll be like, I am in so-and-so, Wyoming. There's not a shock creek crew within three states, right? And you know, and it's just I don't want a vinyl liner pool, I want a taunt tree pool, but nobody knows how to build one. Well, you know, it's a pool builder. I go, well, Mr. I talked to the vinyl guy, I want a concrete pool. He said, I talked to the vinyl guy for him. I said, hey, very similar, you got a crew, let's talk about ICF. Well, now he doesn't have to go find a shock creek guy, doesn't necessarily have to go find a plaster guy, right? He's able to get these walls up. The homeowner has a concrete pool that's insulated and waterproof. Yeah, and and it's in areas like that is where we've had the most success because those areas are extremely stressed for knowledgeable subcontractors. Yeah, and and and so what happens a lot of times is they need that expertise, so they fly them in. That might be one of the reasons where some of these pools are a lot of money. Some of the pools are worth more than the homes.

SPEAKER_04 18:25

Gosh, yeah, some of those pools are outrageously expensive. I mean, they're gorgeous, but I'm just like, ooh. Certainly worth more than my home. Yeah. Well, let me ask this do you think ICF pools require more maintenance? No.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

Yeah, so they they're gonna require less maintenance than traditional pools, right? And the main reason for that is all ICF pools must be waterproof, right? Like an ICF block is that's the caveat here, right? It's like unlike concrete pools, everything should be waterproof, but it just isn't. So people just don't deem it necessary. We got pools that are 100 years old that were never waterproof. They still hold water, right? So, but in today's age where the concrete's not made as well like it used to be. There's all these issues with ASR and where concrete's degrading and stuff like that. It's just not as strong as it used to be. And and if we we we're talking about maintenance, right? Is when you're waterproof, basically you're you're keeping stuff from going in, you're keeping stuff from going out, right? So we know with as you as a THTA maestro, right? Yeah, what's the main thing that affects water chemistry, right? It's it's whatever's precipitated from the concrete.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Well, what if nothing's precipitating from the pump concrete, right? So that's kind of where your maintenance goes there, right? Like, much like how people talk about there's less maintenance with vinyl liner and and fiberglass, right? We we kind of have the same caveat with with ICF cools, barring the pool finish you put on. If you put a concrete pool finish, you still got some issues there. But um, but in terms of like that's just basic water chemistry in reference to managing pH, alkaline, things of that sort. But if we're looking at maintenance on the vessel, you shouldn't ever have to maintain an ICF vessel just because it's encapsulated. We've kept water from coming in and out, right? It's continually curing in a controlled environment, right? It is optimum setting for country. So in reference to like, hey, you know, you're not gonna have rebar popping out, your rebar is not gonna degrade, you know, that kind of maintenance, you should be wanting done, right? Or like with your traditional vessel, you know, you it's all all these things we've talked about on this, right? Is the rebar sitting half an inch thick, deep, right? You know, is my floor half an inch thick, right? You know, or is my wall half an inch thick, right?

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Because somebody ran out of concrete, they got lazy, they or you know, things of that sort, they had a bad batch and they stretched it out, or they had a rebound, right? You know, and they're using concrete they shouldn't be using. We're we're using straight concrete, right? But anyhow, I I I I think I answered your question on it. I hope I did. You did. You did.

SPEAKER_04 21:08

So let me ask this with ICF, you know, walls, what happens if like they're exposed, and I guess are they vulnerable once the pool is finished?

SPEAKER_02 21:18

So this there's two answers to this.

SPEAKER_04 21:21

Let's think we'll be doing that to you today, giving you.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

A lot of different ways with this, right? So let's say like in a home, right? We're building an ICF home, it doesn't get finished in a week. You know, the phone will sit out in the elements for a year, right? It doesn't degrade it. Okay, it's it might discolor a little bit, right? But you know, all we do to like, let's say, on this ICF home, and if it's been sitting for a year because it's four stories tall and it's five thousand square feet. I mean, this is the kind of stuff that they build with ICF, right? It it takes a while before we get to the point where we're gonna we're gonna put the exterior of that wall or whatever, uh what whatever we're gonna decorate it with, right? We'll we'll call we'll call it decoration. All we do is we rasp the surface, scratch it, put like something that looks like a cheese grater, right? And it's it's ready to stuckle, it's ready to tile, it's ready to put stone on. Well, inside a swimming pool, right, you could essentially take as long as you want to build it, right? It's it's not gonna get hurt in that capacity, okay? Because when a wall's already up, it's already poured concrete. The concrete's in the wall, right? The foam at that point I hope so. It's not structural no more. Yeah. It's not structural no more. So the next question is is like, well, I see a pool is done. Now I got this foam wall inside the pool, and somebody is gonna blast something through it, right? They're gonna kick a hole in the wall. I hear that all the time. Okay, it's it doesn't really happen, right? It's it's intentional, right? Because um every so you you have a wall, right?

SPEAKER_04 23:03

Well let let's let's scale let's scale it back, right? So I grew up in California, right? Earthquakes. Earthquakes are a thing. How can they stand up against earthquakes?

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Okay, so because ICF pool wall is constructed of polystyrene foam, there's that word again, right? Polystyrene. The foam walls act as a cushion, absorbing the expansion and contraction. So what what happens when there's an earthquake? You know, and we're still gonna recommend you you you put you get rid of the expansive soil and stuff of that sort, right? But but you know, if you're having that kind of movement, the ICF block is going to absorb that, much like it does in a basement. Okay. Okay. And and think about this, right? In a basement, you only have one side that's supported. So if we have an issue with this, right, it's still does, and the wall's still fine. Imagine in a pool where you have um pressure on both ends that are basically balancing themselves out, right? So if you got movement over here, nothing's happened to that. That's the only problem. It acts as a cushion. Again, back back to like our appliance, right? It's getting delivered, and there's foam in the box.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Right? We kick the side of the washer, nothing happens to the foam.

unknown 24:16

Right?

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Well, the foam gets a little dent in there, but nothing happens to the washer. Right? Think of that happening to your pool.

SPEAKER_04 24:21

Got it. Okay, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Okay. Now, if you have like a 9.0 earthquake, I can't guarantee that.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Well, I'd be concerned about that. Yeah, but yeah, but you probably have different problems at that point. And and this this leads to the question as well, like cold climates, right? I just thought about this when you're talking about um soil and stuff and and movement. Well, this also works for frozen soil. Okay, so there's like there's expansive soil, right? And you know, this prevents the crush effect from the soil expanding. So part of part of the like the cost of like concrete pools in the snowbelt is the amount of rebar reinforcement and concrete that you need. I mean, I was I was I was talking to a guy that he said that he had like 18 inches of concrete on his tool because the world's cold. Right? We talked about ice. Oh man, that is a great idea. Because you know, it's like the phone's gonna give before anything else.

SPEAKER_04 25:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Right? Okay, so that's just I just wanted to touch on that since we were talking about the crush effect, right? Yeah. And and seismic activity, while a lot of the same phenomenon happens with cold weather.

SPEAKER_04 25:33

Yeah. So what about if we were to compare two traditional pool shells, if you will? Well, I'm gonna have three touch points.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

So I guess uh in my opinion. I jumped around a little bit just now. So Yeah, I know. Bounce around a lot. So ICF, in my opinion, right? ICF shells are generally considered stronger and more resilient than concrete shells. Okay, especially if they're poured monolithically. Okay, and that's a uniform pour. Um, ICF pools are great against thermal stress. They provide thermal protection that reduces thermal stress on the concrete. Hot, cold, hot, cold. It's one of the reasons we have tile and pools, right? Because concrete cracks. Environmental resilience. Resilience. That's a word I have a hard time saying. Resilience. Okay. The combination of foam and reinforced concrete are better equipped to handle external pressures, such as shifting or expansive soil, frost heave, and even seismic activity. So, you know, and I referred back to a note on that, so that sounded a little scripted, but it's okay, but it's again because of that foam, right, it's good for the environment, right? I mean, not necessarily good for the environment, but the environment is gonna be less of an issue around the pool. And most importantly, moisture barrier, right? The foam blocks act as a moisture barrier shielding the concrete core and internal steel reinforcement. So that means no water's gonna go into the corridor steel, right? Because it's the steel is a strength of the pool. The concrete just kind of keeps it all together, right? So this is you know, and uh and that's probably the most important thing. It's like hey, it's it's waterproof, right? So you're not gonna have an issue because of love it.

SPEAKER_04 27:21

Gosh, sign me up, put one in my backyard, not here in Tennessee, maybe my next location, but five days. No, five days. I love it. Yeah, my husband would be like, You're taking care of that the same way when I got our cats. Those are yours. Now he like secretly loves them. Well, God, my gosh, we've covered so many myths today. And my man, you have been on the spotlight for a hot minute, but what about when people talk about how ICF poles aren't compatible with modern finishes?

SPEAKER_02 27:52

Oh, so this was big, you know.

SPEAKER_04 27:58

I saved the best for last, my man.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

So so it was Manny, is it gonna hold pebble? I'm a I'm a pebble dealer, right? I do I do all these things, and you know what? And the the bottom line here, no matter how great your foam pool is, it it looks like a cheap pool, and that's not what I sell, right? That's a cheerful. So part of the project was like, hey, you know, we need to find something. Like, let's just talk about stuckle on a home, right? Like, you know, homes are there's there's stupid, you know, stick frame homes, there's foam, and then there's stuckle, right? How is that sticking to the wall? Right? I mean, you know, sedentitious finishes are the same thing in essence. I mean, obviously the full stuff has got some pause lens, it's got some modifiers in there, you know, some so special like fairy dust to make that stuff work, right? I love it.

SPEAKER_04 28:51

Unicorn dust.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Dust, right? Yes, or uh uh lacing Johnny would say sprinkles, right?

SPEAKER_04 28:58

Yes, sprinkles, yes, sprinkles.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Okay, well, so yes, traditional cool finishes will not bond to the foam, right? However, utilizing cemetitious waterproofing, and there's lots of manufacturers that are out there. I've done a lot with base screen, I know that works, right? The main thing is rendering in a way where there's a mechanical bond. You need it rough, right? So now you have a waterproof with a bond coat, we apply the plaster to it, and it stays. It stays so well that we have testing that shows that it's an actual better bond with that process to foam than plaster to shock treatment. So on top of all that, we encourage you to use a pebble finish, right? Or a foam finish, right? Because it sticks better to it, right? So, you know, we can continue to build pools exactly the way we've always designed them. So there's your answer.

SPEAKER_04 29:53

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

I'll put any pool finish on it.

SPEAKER_04 29:56

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

As long as we have the right waterproof and bonding material. Now it doesn't have to be base creatures, there's a lot of them out there. That's just the one I'm familiar with. But you know, if you're if you're looking for testing on that, they're one of the companies that have done that and they have all that information. And we have pools in the ground. Right? And they're they're working.

SPEAKER_04 30:18

I love it. Well, Manny, I cannot thank you enough. I have certainly learned so much from you on ICF pools. Now I definitely want one, and I will definitely be looking at that tarmac differently when I'm out there getting ready to go to Atlantic City. But you know, if anyone had any questions or they wanted to follow up with you, how would they get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Well, um, I'm on social media. I'm pretty easy to find.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

Um are you Magic Manny?

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Yeah, no, I'm not Magic Manny, but I should be. You should be. I uh I work for the grit game. You can find me with the grit game, right? And uh that's uh www.gritgame.com. And uh right, and um it's uh I'm pretty easy to find. Um they can reach out to you. They can.

SPEAKER_04 31:04

They can reach out to me as well.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

That's how you find me.

SPEAKER_04 31:07

Well, buddy, I can't thank you enough for being here to all of our listeners. If you have any questions, again, you can reach out to Magic Manny um at thegritgame.com. You can also reach out to me, but I'm definitely walking away with a lot more information than I expected to walk into this. So, Manny, I can't thank you enough, my man.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 31:26

Thanks, guys. Till next time.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Till next time.