On this very special edition of OneLeg Up, the OLU hosts find themselves together, in Dallas, during an ice storm. What better time to do a podcast?!
In this episode we go deep into content and explore the reasons why certain content works, and why certain content gets no love. We also take on the objections clients have to generating new content and why they are likely doing not only their customers a disservice, but also their businesses.
On this very special edition of OneLeg Up, the OLU hosts find themselves together, in Dallas, during an ice storm. What better time to do a podcast?!
In this episode we go deep into content and explore the reasons why certain content works, and why certain content gets no love. We also take on the objections clients have to generating new content and why they are likely doing not only their customers a disservice, but also their businesses.
KC Urias
Hey, welcome to one leg up, where we discuss how you can deliver the very best customer experience and how you can achieve zero marketing waste. I'm Casey, your eyes, the Tech Alchemist here at one leg. And if it seems a little bit different, well it is we're recording a very special podcast today from Dallas, Texas. I'm joined by Ed Davis, our Chief Operations ninja and Vixen, our CEO and mastermind, guys. How are things more importantly, what are you doing in Dallas?
Edward Davis
Yeah, what are we doing in Dallas Vic?
Vic Sun
We're doing a number of things. We are doing a number of things.
Edward Davis
Yeah, we are. We are, you know, the world's opening up KC. And in a slight twist than what we've experienced last couple years, we were invited to do an in person business pitch. And so we've just been here since last night, working on getting acclimated because it is really cold out. In fact, it's snowing, which is weird to say about Dallas. And then tomorrow, we'll go and meet with hopefully, a future new client of one next.
KC Urias
Wow, that's really exciting and fantastic news. And I guess only you guys can make it snow in Dallas. Right? It's your appearance that's making it you know, snow is somewhat precipitous?
Vic Sun
Yeah. I brought in the cold weather. Yeah. Is steely resolve and made it presence made it is called the whole face, right?
KC Urias
That's what I was saying. All right, so with this special episode of OneLeg Up, we want to discuss killer content and how it is the unsung hero of lead conversion. So we hear a lot of clients say that there is that they have content, like brochures, websites, and they had to invest in content videos are creative, and they're still getting leads. Why do I need to even think about doing something that I haven't done before? And why is it that this is for Vic? Why can't companies just do promos, coupons and different sales? Or discount sales? Rather?
Vic Sun
I think you mean, if you want to do what everybody else is doing, I think yeah, sure. Have a ball. Yeah, it's I mean, that's pretty much the status quo in a lot of industries, including Home Improvement manufacturing, you know,
Edward Davis
yeah, you name it. And I think that, you know, just because it's the way that it's always been done doesn't mean that that's the way that it should be done moving forward. Right, the world's constantly evolving. So that's that's sort of the short answer. I think, more importantly, really, what happens is, people have built a business based on a certain way of operating, right, and that's, that's made it comfortable. But what you see in a lot of companies is, you know, if you really want to have accelerated growth or outsized growth, you really have to look at things differently. And so, you know, one of the things we do run into, from time to time, more often than we care to admit, whether it's home home improvement, whether it's manufacturing, whether it's some of the the b2b, some of the companies in the b2b space, it's really about, well, I've got the stuff that I've always had, and it works. Why on earth do I need to think about apps and videos? And, and, and user generated content and reviews and whatnot? So like, how do we tackle that with them? Why do they how do we convince them to to go a different route?
Vic Sun
I think we convince them when when by not convincing them and saying, Well, look, I mean, the question is, if you if you decide not to do anything, and clearly when people speak to us, they have a need to have some form of desire to make some improvement. And then we say, well, you clearly think that there's room for improvement when you don't do anything different, and you just keep going, will things improve? Right? And if the answer is no, which is, you know, kind of a rhetorical question, you know, in this in a certain degree, then you have to do something different, right? That really is not just about standing out. But I think it's, I think a lot of the times it's it's a decision for a lot of the companies who who would no longer want to be just part of challenging the other people who are doing the same thing. They want to really dominate or at least start working on being the leader in that particular space.
Edward Davis
Yeah. And I think I think it probably goes to some other fundamental challenges that companies typically have number one, what's our idea how you want videos and you want content you want I don't even know how to wrap my head around that you want me to just go, you know, film the guys out on the manufacturing line or whatnot. The other bit that always we always run into is the price? Well, I can pay $1,500 and get a brochure made? Well, sure you can. And it was probably done by my 17 year old nephew who's decent at, you know, Microsoft Word. But is that really what you want the experience? Right? And that's what this podcast is about? Is that what you want your customers, your potential customers? Is that what you want their experience to be? Just some sort of brochure that you could get printed up at FedEx Kinkos, or something like that?
Vic Sun
I think the challenge really, for a lot of the companies is they see what other people are doing. And they can't get out of it. Because it's like, well, that company's doing well. Let's copy what they're doing. Let's just slap on our logo and maybe some colors.
Edward Davis
And what do I say to you, Vic? When you say, when we're sitting around, and we're strategizing, we're thinking about things, you bring up this competitor in the marketing space, there's what do I say to you? Go ahead, what do I say? I say it's a fuck about what they're doing. I care about what we're doing. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's the answer to these companies who bring up while such and such, you know, company that we compete with, and this geography does this, and it's working for them. There's all sorts of other reasons that go into that. So yeah,
Vic Sun
and I think them, I'll add the logical bit, the math side of things, is that a lot of the times, you know, the challenge really here is that there is some level of success, right? There's going to be, okay, well, I'll buy 100 of these leads, and I will convert 20% of them just by phone call just by trying and will not several phones, right? Yeah. And then out of that, you know, I'll sell five to eight. Sure. And so now you're at 5%, conversion, 8%, if you're lucky, from 100 leads, and then the 9592 to 95 of them, really were just a waste of time. And so a lot of the times they get stuck in this math where they go, Well, how can I just get one more sale? Because it you know, that provides profit, not thinking the other way, which is I think this is the asymmetrical way of how we do things is there's 92 of these that you didn't they? What if you sold one out of every? Sure? And and the answer to that is, well, you can't solve the problem at the level you created it, you've got to go about it differently. And in this case, it's really what is it that you are showing people, right, because the majority of the people that 92 That don't convert, they're the people who aren't ready. And so you can provide a promo every frickin month, right? And you can go and describe, well, we're not high pressure sales, we'll get an estimate anyway, everybody's doing it. And the money need to continue to not convert, because let's face it, they're not ready for No, no amount of convincing will take place. And so I think that's really the the challenge. But I think it's a challenge. And I think maybe you and I can debate this, you know, to it. But it's a challenge that's based more on the philosophy. Because if you do the math, and you look at the outcome from the companies that are doing it, there's really no debate, it's like it is more effective.
Edward Davis
Yeah. And I think we got into that in one of our podcasts, we talked about serious versus curious and how you have to, you have to talk to everybody on a spectrum. But KC, you clearly have a job to do in managing. I don't know how I do when I'm on a podcast managing just him. And now you got to manage both of us what we're gonna stop.
KC Urias
It's okay. No, it's all right. No, what I wanted to ask you, because we've clearly talked about the pain points of doing the same thing as everybody else. So the next thing that I wanted to get from you both is, what should companies do if they do want to pursue this genuine content? First strategy? Where's it? What's the first step?
Edward Davis
So the first step, I'd say this jokingly, is to recognize that you actually have a problem, right? And as soon as you can do that, and acknowledge that, then you're ultimately open to what comes next. And realistically, what then comes next is, if you let's not just do content for the sake of doing content, yeah. Right, because then we're just doing stuff to make ourselves feel good. And go, Well, I'm you. Well, one lady told me I need to content so we've done a video when we, you know, we didn't explain her and we know, it needs to be organized, right? We need to be it needs to make an impact. It needs to be consistent. It needs to tell a story it needs to encapsulate not only what it is that you're about as an organization, but what your customers or potential customers expect of you in terms of their their their engagement of you and So, you know, the very first thing that we would always say you need to do is we need to do a bit of discovery in service of coming up with a big idea, a campaign double idea. And that's a bit of a process, right? That's not something that you can just go, say to your agency, whether it's us or anybody else. Hey, guys, I need a campaign a ball idea. And then that, you know, they don't just go lock themselves away in a room, and come back a week later and go, AVIs, we try harder. And that's not an intentional plug for Avis, it was just the very first one that came to mind. Really, what needs to happen is there needs to be some discovery work, there needs to be some research, we need to ideally talk to some of your customers, and even better some of your customer or potential customers who haven't yet purchased yet, right? Because we can ask them questions about what is your expectations? What's been your impression so far? What did you like about your experience? What didn't you I mean, there's so many different things that we can uncover in a short span of time, then, you know, we really want to put all of that in contrast to what are your actual competitors doing. And this is the only time in which I'm going to give a crap about what a competitor is doing. I want to know what they're doing so that I can go, I don't want to do that, I don't want to, to look or sound similar to what they're doing, I want to find that clear ocean that clear whitespace, in which to position my client to win, right. And then once we've got all of that, I can come up with a proposition, I can come up with a call to action. And I can come up with the graph the visuals and and you know, the look and feel of a campaign and then I can present that to a client, not me, we have smarter people in our organization are able to do that. But but then we can present that to the client and say, This is what this looks and sounds like. This is what we think it'll have an impression on this is how it hits on the emotional and the rational side of the thinking process when when somebody is in the mood to buy, or if they're not right. And that's the really, that's, that's one of the huge benefits that you get, when when you actually are deliberate about the idea that campaign herbal idea that you come up with, is it not only accounts for both sides of how somebody might make a decision, emotional and rational, it accounts for wherever they might find themselves on the spectrum of buying, right if they're just curious and kicking around and tires and, and whatnot and just long just gonna go see whatever, we can talk to you. Right, we can talk to you where you're at in your journey. If you're ready to buy and you want to estimate right now because you need somebody in tomorrow to clean up. You know, your air conditioner that crapped out. Great. We know exactly what to say to you, too.
Vic Sun
Yeah, I think part of it. So it's a little bit of undercover boss and then revamping it sounds like that's right. Yeah. And then there are players in there. Let's face it, right, let's talk about some of the challenges is a lot of the times and we've come across competitors at this point, but agencies will be like, well, we can do this. And really what they're doing is the creative without the research, without the thought into it, you know what I mean? And and then the the challenge as well, I think which, you know, we have been solving for our clients and for the people that have been hitting us up has been? Well, we do have creative director and photographer, videographers, actual creatives, whereas a lot of agencies are just kind of, well, we can execute on it without that full planning.
Edward Davis
Sure.
Vic Sun
The thought into it.
KC Urias
And Vic on that know, How will all this new content videos and creatives actually helped them sell more like, is there evidence of that?
Vic Sun
Absolutely, I think it's, it's not an either evidence of that, like, you know, how much of that are you going to now start leveraging to continue calibrating because whenever you do the content, one thing that's being missed, because it's a it's a big first step, but once you do take that step, a lot of people don't realize you're collecting more data now or a B testing. And now you're calibrating it's the Kaizen methodology, and your creatives and the messaging can end the positioning, improves over funnels, which now affects all of your campaigns. And again, when Ed was talking about a big long idea, campaign double idea, it trickles down and then you can really calibrate that messaging. As you collect the information is that you do a lot of we do a lot of AD.
Edward Davis
Right. And I think that it is a a good catalyst to and we should probably do a podcast on this. It's a good catalyst to organizing your sales and marketing, right? Because we know outside of what somebody might put into a CRM or something along those lines, fundamentally, companies are fairly random and chaotic in terms of how they manage and what assets they have. And, and when they go to market and how they go to market and all that kind of stuff. If you actually put some deliberate thought process into developing a campaign platform, right, and then methodically developing the supporting assets, no matter where they are based on, you know, the customers, potential customers, what you want to say, and when it just inherently means you're far more organized. And you can get into the attribution models, and it'll be easier for you to understand, Okay, where is this piece of content, most impactful in the conversation with somebody about X, you'll be able to make the understanding
Vic Sun
when you start doing that the impact really is twofold on the marketing side, on your marketing, qualified leads, conversion increases, simply because it's the right messaging now. Now for the people who are serious, right, and we've talked about those a sales qualified leads. Here's the one thing that I think a lot of salespeople sometimes don't like hearing about this, right? Or sales managers or gurus or trainers, right, wherever you want to call those experts is that well, that salesperson does all the job and it and you're what you're saying is, and I've said this many times, what happens to the sales qualified leads you're taking in order, you still need salespeople, you still need people who, you know, who are trained in customer service and being able to deliver a pitch. But the difference there is really, you know, you're increasing the potential of scaling your sales without having to scale the costs of hiring, training and relying your salespeople because now you're moving to the model of taking an order. Because those individuals are in fact, serious people, they've aligned to your values. The messaging is right. They're consuming the content when they need to be. And so now you're taking that order. And there's really nothing wrong with that. Sure. I mean, you know, the biggest companies in the world, they take orders, they do they don't sell they don't persuade athletes.
Edward Davis
We don't take orders. We're not order takers.
Vic Sun
Exactly. So yeah, I think that's one of the major impact is really it's going to be on your bottom line, you may not get more leads, because it's not lead generation. And but you're going to generate more revenue, because who cares about producing one more lead? I mean, I think most people want to produce one more sale?
Edward Davis
Sure.
KC Urias
Yeah, on that same vein of being able to directly correlate your creative to your sales, the what's the best way for clients to track their invest investments and attribute it to the creative directly? Because, as you've said, in other podcasts, there's a lot of different factors a lot, a lot of different key players that goes into making a sale, how can business owners and business developers actually attribute that creative investment to a bottom line to making that sale?
Edward Davis
Sure, I think I think where it starts is, is that you can now put in, you know, if it's digital, obviously, you can use tracking codes and things along those lines. And with the pandemic, one of the really interesting things from the pandemic that has come about from a marketing standpoint, things like QR codes have been around for what decade longer? Technically, you start thinking about longer. Yeah, I mean, you know, barcodes are the precursor to QR codes. But but they just never really went anywhere until the pandemic, right? And everybody, well, how are we going to get people to, to look at our menu if they, you know, and so that was the precipitous of that. And so think about that now, right? If you if you combine, if, let's say you're a restaurant, right, and you really want to understand what people really like about your restaurant, right? Certainly, if you have any sort of, of restaurant management software, you're gonna be able to pull reports about, you know, 50 people a night order the ice cream sundae and 20 people order the pie or whatever. But think about where you're, you're really at now, in the sense that you can, because now it's digital, your menus digital, you can install hot jar, on your on your digital menu, use the QR code to get people to go to that landing page. And now we can actually track how they go through the actual fucking menu, excuse my language. And now we can actually start manipulate manipulating it. It's the wrong word, but it's the right word. We can actually start manipulating people into choices that we really want them to get into
Vic Sun
with regards to The attribution part, just think about it this way, right? Companies are always saying, Well, it's a salesperson that's making a sale, they can't attribute that correctly. Because, well, what if it was a promotion that you had, and there's all kinds of variables, right? So this is really a very simple way, all you have to do is take a look at the content and the creative. And then you start looking at the behavior from from from each of those funnels or from your, from your audiences, right, that people who aren't ready or not, and you will absolutely be able to attribute that fact that look, when I did this, there were more views, there were more conversions, right, there were more follow ups. And for the ones who were serious, you will see that your sales team themselves without even tracking, you can, will have higher close rates for and this is the this is the dirty secret of a lot of sales organizations who who peddle these 1000s of dollars worth of sales. They insist that it's a salesperson, and only the salesperson doing delivering the sale not keep in mind that there are hundreds of elements, including the fact that when you get the right person, right, it might not be the salesperson they get they're buying the company, they're buying the messaging they're buying, whether it was my wife correctly excited about this, you know,
Edward Davis
I mean, it's right. And you know, my favorite one of my favorite stories ever, about sales versus marketing, right? Because somebody tried to a former client of mine tried to make it really simplistic, because we're trying to figure out how we can, how we could impact the sales side, because they just weren't joined up very well. And, you know, we pulled this report. And the bottom line of the punch line of it, I should actually say, is, you know, we get into the room and the VP of Sales essentially said, Well, every everything that we win, it's because of my sales team. And if we lose a deal, right, because we were talking about deal when when one deals and lost deals, and if we lose it because marketing didn't do its job. Wasn't that convenient? Well, if you think about it, it sounds a little narcissistic.
Vic Sun
And this is this is my my thing to the sales managers out there is thinking about it this way, if you're having trouble scaling, recruiting people, are you really going to be able to recruit them, because you're such a great sales trainer, they know you or because you got a sales training program, or you go to them and say, we have the highest buying intent leads, you bet you basically take orders, and oh, by the way, we've got a great culture. Exactly. This is the point is they you, if sales managers, you know, there was there was maybe half a dozen last year that reached out to me and say, oh, you know, one call closes the way it is. And I And one thing I asked him to like, are what are you doing with your scaling your recruitment? And all of them have basically said, it's been hard hiring salespeople and training and firing and going through that? I say, Well, why would that awesome? It wouldn't be hard. Yeah, exactly. If you think about it, the biggest companies, right, and in home improvement, the ones that can scale, it's their close rates that are going up not the team. It's because here's here's the thing, right? They have high buying intent, leads that people go to go to their websites, see their their their, their their content, you know, consume it over a period of time. And when they're ready, guess what, you're just there to take an order? Yeah. Right. And so I think the part there is, is which which really is is sad is that there's this marketing in sales, it shouldn't be it No, you marketing and sales should be one in terms of you know, that that comparation, the marketing team has to produce a high buying intent leads, right, and the sales team doesn't have all this pressure to one call close, they will close, they will ask for the order. But their conversion is so much higher, because of the fact that these people are ready, or at least they know they've aligned their values to the company, not because you're trying to go in when through a sales plan, and all underpinned by the fact that you have a really high quality idea.
Edward Davis
Yeah. That, that you were able to build some great assets and content off of that then got leverage in the appropriate ways.
Vic Sun
I do have one quick question.
Edward Davis
No you're not allowed to ask one question, KC.
Vic Sun
Well, what's the I mean, we get asked question how long does it take big idea? Get me from here to here. I've been doing this for 20 years. What's usually the answer to that?
Edward Davis
Well we're marketers and creative people, typically they want as much time as you'll possibly have. But you know, we we've got some really good people and you know, most agencies worth their salt. You know, if you gave him a brief, you know, within eight weeks, I think is a fair, within eight weeks is a fair sort of timeframe to go from brief to, I'm looking at three potential possibilities for a campaign. And then you refine that over the course of another month. And then you get, and then you can start actually building the assets and the content that are on the on the back of that. So, you know, a good business quarter is fair to me, you can do it in a shorter period of time. I've seen some companies take six, eight months to do it.
Vic Sun
The why is that so terrible when they've been doing things for 20 years? 10 years, even small? And what do you think it's
Edward Davis
because people are inherently impatient. Right. And so it goes back to one of the things we're talking about on previous podcasts, if you are lead motivated, if you are sales motivated, all you care about is how many sales did I make today, this week, this month, this quarter. So therefore, you don't have time for anything else. If you are business motivated, if you are interested in relationship building, this is a drop in the bucket because you plan to be doing this shit for years and years to come. Isn't that the same thing though? I'm in relationships, I'm gonna.
KC Urias
It's not the same thing. Because it's something that you're putting out at the end of the day that you're genuinely excited and proud of. And when you're you and your team know, you got something good, that attract people in? That's a completely different feeling.
Edward Davis
Yeah, you're right, Casey. And if I'm interested in a relationship, I'm open to hearing No. From a potential customer. Yeah. If all I give a shit about his sales, I hear no, but I'm still driving to Yes. Yeah. Right. So there's absolutely a difference. And then a 10.
Vic Sun
But I think the thing that a lot owners, but does that translate to sales, it's just not right this very minute, but over a period of time, it always went correct. If they think it's the context of, well, this is where you need to be living because you intend to actually be around versus I just want to do here. I don't know what's going to happen here. Right.
Edward Davis
And I like Like I've said before, I think it really just depends on what it is you're trying to build. If you've got a lifestyle business, you've got bills to pay in terms of my my, you know, Mercedes Benz 3 million SL or whatever brand it is, I got to make that payment in a week. All you give a shit is how many deals that they close? Yes, yeah. Right. And when am I getting paid?
KC Urias
Yeah, I encourage anybody who's thinking of jumping on the boat for building these creative and innovative campaigns to have sort of a timeline in mind in how much time you're willing to be putting into this campaign. And when you need to have be reaping those benefits for that campaign. It's always good to approach an agency or any kind of marketing with that in your mind before you start coming up with the ideas. Alright, well, thank you very much for talking with me today. Thank you guys for attending, even though I know you're out and about. As always, I hope you enjoyed our chat and learned a couple of things. And here at OneLeg we believe in poor marketing pollutes the planet, and that business is full of tired, outdated, indistinct, unremarkable underperforming marketing that sucks. But what sucks even more is that many companies have forgotten what the most important thing is of all, which is the customer and we're on a mission on behalf of our clients customers to change that. To learn more, go to zeromarketingwaste.com, or you can subscribe to our blog and this very podcast. You can also find us and follow us by looking for the flamingo and OneLeg handle wherever you socialize online. Thanks and have a wonderful rest of your week.