📰 Front Page Leadership - Bunnings are Unlocking Employee Potential with a Four-Day Work Week

Are you ready to revolutionize your work-life balance? Discover how Bunnings' landmark agreement to trial a four-day work week is shaking up the corporate world and potentially benefiting employees and employers alike. We dive into the research behind this agreement and explore the myriad of advantages it brings, such as reduced absenteeism, improved work-life balance, and enhanced overall well-being.

But what about striking the perfect balance in our daily lives? Join us as we tackle the concept of life balance and how it differs from work-life balance, along with discussing the importance of trust and faith in the workplace. We also highlight a fascinating study conducted by the University of Reading, revealing a 71% productivity boost after reducing meetings by 40% - and how this small change can have significant impacts on employee stress levels and overall happiness.

Finally, we take a deep look into the implications of inflexible workplace structures and how challenging traditional norms can lead to a more inclusive and authentic environment. Offering a variety of working styles not only benefits employees, but also ensures organizations don't miss out on the very best talent. Don't miss out on this eye-opening conversation as we explore the future of work and the incredible potential of flexibility in the workplace.

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Transcript

KIrralea: 0:00

Before we get into today's episode, we want to acknowledge the privilege of living and working on Aboriginal land and we pay our respects to the elders, past, present and emerging. Hello listeners, and welcome back to another episode of From Page Leadership. I have with me my co-host, Simon Thiessen. Welcome, Simon.

Simon: 0:28

Hello, Kirralea, good to be here and, of course, this is a member of the authenticity transforming workplace culture family of podcasts. but another one of your favourite episodes.

KIrralea: 0:40

Yes, I love when we take something that's in the media and we can apply it to what's going on in everyday organisations that we speak and work with. So I guess we get into it.

Simon: 0:51

Let's hear it, because you've done a lot of research on this one.

KIrralea: 0:54

This actually follows a front page leadership episode that we did back in February 2023 called Truth and Trust, and we will drop the link to this because there's a lot of back story as to where the subject of this originated from, so for anyone that hasn't listened to that, i'd suggest having a listen, but basically-.

Simon: 1:14

And my question is what's wrong with you?

KIrralea: 1:17

Yeah, if you haven't listened to it, get with the program. A new article came out on Friday which was Bunnings agrees to trial four day work week and more holidays for its workers. So it is about the four day work week and that was very much what Truth and Trust was about. It was about it was being trialled overseas and we spoke a lot about where it originated from from the stone masons. We won't go into that too much because it's all in that. But basically Bunnings will be the first Australian retailer to trial a four day week for thousands of its full-time workers, with the hardware giant announcing it has made a landmark agreement last Friday. The deal will allow full-time workers the option to request to work 38 hours over four days. The Bunnings deal is defined as a significant breakthrough for work-life balance for retail workers and could set a precedent in the industry. The package is good for workers and for this major retailer, like setting Bunnings up as a preferred employer in a tight retail market. According to the newspaper, bunnings will now trial four different models of the four day work week or nine day fortnight and test the benefits for workers. Full-time employers who opt in could spread their 38 hours, the 38 hour week over four days or over 18 or 16 days per four week roster cycle if they work some weekend shifts. So Bunnings with the big hit has come out and said that they are going to move to a four day week, and this was on the back of some research that has been carried out and the research was released in December last year.

KIrralea: 2:54

Australia was one of the countries involved in the study and it also included New Zealand, the US, canada, uk and Ireland. So over 10 months nearly a thousand employees at 33 different companies took part in the trial. Their hours were cut down by an average of six hours and they worked one less day in a week while still receiving their regular full-time salary. The report found that revenue rose 8% during the trial, but it was up a whopping 38% from the same period and a year earlier. The absenteeism dropped, as 67% of employees said that they were less burnt out. Staff also reported less fatigue, with levels going down from 66% before the trial to 57% after the trial, and insomnia and sleep problems in employees also went down by 8%. It was such a success that two thirds of the firms decided to retain the four day working week, including Australia And other than the US.

KIrralea: 3:50

Australia was the largest participant in this study And some of the businesses in Australia. So we've got a family owned business called EAS Shipping in Perth who jumped on the bandwagon. They wanted a 100% output for 80% of the time but 100% pay. The team rotates through the week with one day off on either a Tuesday, thursday or Friday, and the CEO has said that staff morale is up, productivity is up. There's been less sick days since a new roster was implemented And this, i think, is an integral part of this. I believe this is the way forward and we're just jumping the gun.

KIrralea: 4:27

So, I absolutely believe that this is the way forward, and I would urge people who are considering this don't be someone that waits until it's the norm. Do this now and jump the gun. Be a leader and have this as an attraction to your workplace.

Simon: 4:44

So I'm just going to jump in here and say This is purely off the cuff, but I think we can summarize this Managers manage attendance, leaders lead performance Absolutely. And that's the key distinction here the false securities we create for ourselves by saying my people are here, therefore I'm getting more productivity. It's gone. The gene is out of the bottle. Get used to it.

KIrralea: 5:17

That's something that you say, which I often repeat to people. is you buy attendance?

Simon: 5:22

Yeah, that's all you do.

KIrralea: 5:23

That's all money. Does You buy someone turning up? That's right.

Simon: 5:26

Buy attendance, And if that's what you value in your business, then keep measuring that. But if you value performance, if you value outcomes for the people you exist to serve, if you value employee experience, if you value quality, if you value so many other things, if you value genuine results, then this is the way to go. Kirillie, it just struck me as I was listening to that. So Bunnings, bloody big employer, only getting bigger. And we recently published a blog on our website about fishing in a shallow pond, about the difficulties in attracting people. We recorded a podcast which is either going to be released shortly before or shortly after this one on the same topic. Gee, it's just got a lot harder for those people, hasn't it?

KIrralea: 6:20

The pond just got a lot shallower And at the last week's front page leadership episode where I had to physically go stop talking about this. We're talking about this in the next class, So it's like the quality that you were talking about Absolutely.

Simon: 6:34

Bunnings have just rocked up to that shallow pond with a bloody big rod and very nice bait, and that's what you're complaining against.

KIrralea: 6:42

Absolutely, and this then creates the situation where I could go somewhere else other than Bunnings and I might get through a $4 more an hour, but I'm not going to get a four day week.

Simon: 6:55

And you might not even look, you might not even know. So when people leave for money, 99% of the time they don't leave for money. They looked around for a whole bunch of other reasons and then money might have been one of the clinching things. but they weren't looking because of money. They were often looking because of dissatisfaction with something else, with how they felt at work, with the flexibilities they got, with the respect that the workplace shows for their broader life, et cetera. So often people managers honestly, they hide. It's an excuse. They hide behind the excuse that I'm losing people to money. Why were people looking in the first place? And I'm not going to suggest for a second that it never happens, but I don't think it's the explanation all of the time that some managers seem to believe it is.

KIrralea: 7:53

Well, we live in a world where flexibility has never been so important to the modern day workforce Absolutely So. The ability for organisations to grant individuals the freedom to establish their own schedules, the trust to be able to do this, can be seen as companies taking that next step forward of how they can transform the way we work to really foster that work-life harmony. And I was talking to someone earlier in the week who said that the reality is that not everybody can go to a four-day work week And look, bunnings has. There's a lot of retailers that says we can't do that. Well, bunnings has just come out and smacked the ball out of the park and said, yes, we do and we're going to make this work. The reality is that this will not work for everybody And there's different avenues that you can go down.

KIrralea: 8:44

People can offer flexibility through work from home. People can offer flexibility through the four-day work week. There just needs to be the willingness for flexibility. I think because flexibility in all the research and studies that I read and the feedback I get from people with retention and recruiting and exit interviews and things like that, is that flexibility is a top priority for people. So, being able to offer something like a four-day work week or a day working from home. It does make a difference. And someone said something to me during the week and they call it because they've said you know, they can't offer a work from home model at the moment. They can't offer a four-day work week at the moment. So what they have introduced is it's called moments that matter And that's the policy.

KIrralea: 9:32

It's a moments that matter. policy Employees can come and say I have a moment that matters happening.

Simon: 9:40

Love it And I need some.

KIrralea: 9:41

How good is it? I've held on not telling you that all week because I wanted to tell you that, but and because when I was talking to this person, they said you know, often, a lot of the time, the reality is that dads don't feel like they can take time off to go and watch their kids in in, you know, do sport or watch an assembly, and you know there were sometimes mums as well, but I am someone that goes to a lot of assemblies and the reality is there's not a lot of dads there.

KIrralea: 10:12

And that's because often in workforces that's not seen as an important thing.

Simon: 10:18

And to take time away from work for The privilege of seeing my sons cross country yesterday, and you know the fact that I could do that if I was sitting at work thinking, oh gee, he's running today, i'd love to see him, i can't Then that breeds resentment about my work. It certainly doesn't breed, and I, you know, i'm in a fortunate position of running a business with you And I would still be resentful about it. So imagine someone that doesn't have quite that same control over their working arrangements, and we don't want people resenting being at work.

KIrralea: 10:56

No, and we want people to feel safe And and I thought how good is moments that matter.

Simon: 11:01

And that moment.

KIrralea: 11:02

those moments that matter might be I have an elderly parent, or I have an elderly relative or grandparent in a nursing home and I want to go sit with them and have lunch. That is a moment that matters in someone's world And to create a policy and create a space for people to step into that and know that they can go to someone with the backing of a policy behind them and say, hey, i need to take an hour and a half moments that matter And they go. yep, no worries.

Simon: 11:28

Do you know what I can hear out there already? I can hear the feedback that we're going to get. I can hear the gringes going yes, but what about when people abuse it? You know some people will take it too far. They'll think a moment that matters is they want to do something trivial. Who thinks I want to sideline First of all, maybe that is a moment that matters to them, so it's don't have a value judgment about what moments matter. The second thing is don't it's lazy, lazy, lazy leadership to manage everyone in an uninspired way to prevent the poor exception rather than just dealing with the poor exception, because what we then do is treat everyone like someone who doesn't deserve a moment that matters, rather than having the courage to have the honest conversation with the person that might be taking it too far.

KIrralea: 12:24

Yeah, and look, i'm sure I didn't go too far into the policy, so I'm sure that there's some restrictions around the fact you can't have 20 moments that matter in your week and things like that.

Simon: 12:32

Or maybe it's just left to a leader having an honest and respectful conversation with someone, which is what leaders need to do.

KIrralea: 12:40

And I think by having those like, we don't have to delve into the details, but if someone comes to you and says you know, i have a moment that matter and you say you know worries, you know, and there might be a discussion that follows. There might be nothing but there might be a discussion that follows that says I'd like to go and sit with my grandmother and have lunch with her. She's in a nursing home, she gets on the. You've just taken that relationship with that person to another level of learning of what goes on in their world outside of work. And maybe they have to try to juggle that after work and maybe that's hard because in a nursing home, you know, night time isn't a time where you can go visit and sometimes weekends are restricted and things like that.

KIrralea: 13:17

You know, you extend that olive branch and you learn about the people and you create a relationship with your people on the next level that makes them feel safe to come and go. Yeah, you know I'm having a really tough time at the moment. You know my, my grandmother is, or my grandfather's sick in hospital or whatever that might be. That's going on in that world. I think it just creates that ability for people to not feel they have to front up to work and not be able to share that part of their world.

Simon: 13:44

I'm going to share a moment that matters in a minute, but before I do, for the, for our listeners, you might not be able to offer four day work weeks. You might not be able to offer moments that matter. You might not be able to offer some of the things that I found something else that could be right here.

Simon: 14:00

Well, good, let's come to that in a second. But you can offer something. Absolutely What I think, what I think some workplaces do, is they say we can't do those things, so flexibility is not for us, and I think that's a massive opportunity missed. And again, i just think it's we're letting ourselves down as leaders. We had a moments that matter situation quite recently, didn't we? So we were working interstate together and I won't go into the details, but one of your kids got their teams exceeded and they went on to the next round and you looked at our diaries and said gee, where I've got a clash with this. And I think something we can be proud of as an organization is. Our conversation was can we make this work? It was okay. Well, you need to be there. It's a moment that matters. We didn't use those words, so how do we facilitate that? What does that look like? And so the question wasn't how. The question wasn't whether. The question was how and that was. We just assumed that it was just the way we work, and I think I think when you start to change those paradigms in a workplace, then you start asking different questions, not is this possible, it's how do we make this happen And for me it comes down to the difference between we're letting go of the the bullshit we tell ourselves about work-life balance.

Simon: 15:27

It does not exist, because that implies that work and life are different things. What we need to move to is life balance and accept that work is actually one part of that balance. But and I know it sounds pedantic, but when we talk about work-life balance, we set them up as the enemy of each other. I can't have a life because of work or I can't come to work because of life. When we say, when we just see it purely as life balance, we start to say okay, to keep this life in balance, i've got to move some of these bits around.

Simon: 16:03

And if I've got some bits of it, particularly work, that are rigidly locked in place and can't be moved to create balance, then work's always going to be a problem, whereas when we see all those bits as moving, there's always a bit of give, there's a bit of a trade-off, there's a bit of a take. All the bits move and we can move them into a position to balance. It takes a leader that's prepared to exactly as we said in that previous episode, that is prepared to put the faith in people and say I trust people, i'm surrounded by good people, and they will step up to that. And I actually think when you create that sort of environment, people respond to it by becoming better versions of themselves and it's almost self-fulfilling. So you said you've got another way that organisations can do this.

KIrralea: 16:55

Yes, so I was reading. There has been a study done by the University. I was reading a study done by the University of Reading and it's called The Surprising.

Simon: 17:06

The Reading in the UK, I gather.

KIrralea: 17:08

Yeah, the Surprising impact of meeting free days And the study has found productivity was 71% higher after reducing meetings by 40%. Removing 60% of meetings increase cooperation and improved employees stress level and well-being. And I read that and I thought, well, if we talk about this on the podcast, then we're going to have listeners that go. We can't remove our meetings like that just doesn't work. We need to have meetings. But then I thought sometimes we have meetings for the sake of having meetings.

KIrralea: 17:35

And I went on to read a few of the comments underneath and someone had linked to a story where in their office they have a rule If you get invited to a meeting and that meeting invitation doesn't have a purpose and agenda and an intended outcome, you don't have to go. Think of meetings that go for one hour. So think of your one hour meetings and instead they go for 30 minutes. You're reducing that and you're forcing accountability, but you're also freeing up people so they're not having just meetings for the sake of meetings and meetings that go on. And so, whilst if you're an organization that can't go to a four-day week straightaway and that's thinking, you know, maybe moments of mannerism for us maybe there's ways that you can think about this type of flexibility.

KIrralea: 18:22

And another person then there was like a comment section that said they have in their office where they can they get to rule like completely make themselves unavailable for three hours So they work out whether they're more productive in the morning or the afternoon and then they rule themselves out. No phones, no email, no one can interrupt them And the productivity is skyrocketing because these people have interruptions. So I challenge you that if you're listening to what we're saying and going, that's not going to work, that's going to work. There is something that will work. There is some flexibility you can bring into the way you do things now so that your people aren't have a little bit more well-being and a little bit more balance and a little bit more reduced stress in their everyday life.

Simon: 19:07

It's the rigidity that's the problem. We do it this way. We have this meeting this time because that's what we've always done. We all need all those people there And what we find is we put so many boundaries and rules and parameters in place that it then becomes hard to be flexible. So, i agree, don't ask yourself can we be flexible? Ask yourself, how does flexibility work for us? What does flexibility look like in our workplace? Yeah, yeah, and that might be really small in some workplaces because there are such strong restrictions. I'm thinking of organizations that have very set trading hours and very set peak demand times, or in organizations where there's a legal requirement to have a certain ratio of people or whatever. So if you find some flexibilities in those workplaces, people know that you're working within really strong boundaries that are imposed externally and they're grateful for them. That's what sets you apart from the person in the same industry down the road who's competing for those great people.

KIrralea: 20:20

And that was what you were speaking about in the previous episode where I had to cut you off.

Simon: 20:23

Well, you cut me off. Yeah, i love this example you told me about and share it with our listeners.

KIrralea: 20:29

Well, i was actually going to refer to something that you were talking about, but we can move on to. That is when we had that discussion with one of our clients is what flexibility could look like. And they have a retail store and they need to open at a certain time and they need to close at a certain time And there's certain things that need to happen during the day, and you actually said to them what would happen if someone came in over the busy time. So if you had someone that maybe wasn't full time and you had someone that was part time and they worked 10 till 2 or 11 till 3 or something, what does that And I don't think that's something that they're going to go away and implement, but it was certainly something when we were actually thinking about that person was like huh, you know, and it's probably something that they thought about.

Simon: 21:10

But when you hear it again from someone else, you're like, you know, maybe this does have legs and maybe this is something that we can consider, and the only limitation there was there was that particular organization has multiple, multiple outlets and they've got a pretty standard structure And this is what it looks like And it's saying well, that's great And it's worked really well, but does it work as well today? Or if we did something else, could it work better Or could it actually just work just as well? And it's it's letting go of those boundaries And you know how many people out there might want to work 9 to 12 and say that's actually, if I could do that three days a week. Or how many people out there want to work and we know this want to work school hours And that just might suit some businesses. If we can get away from the traditional model, do you know what We might have to rearrange our business slightly And I know again that won't work for every organization But maybe we slightly reorganize the way we do business to meet the way people like to balance their lives these days.

Simon: 22:16

And we can rail against that all we like and say yeah, but you know where's the commitment. This is reality, this is what's happening with people. This is how people are choosing to live their lives And if we can show them how our workplace can be a meaningful part of that. It just takes some imagination, it takes some letting go It. It challenge everything and then only keep what you need to keep And without the extra rules that we imagine and we put in place out of habit or out of personal preference and all that sort of stuff. Once we remove those, there's a lot less restrictions than we think there are.

KIrralea: 22:53

That's right, what is possible, instead of thinking, well, we can't do that because we haven't done it all, that won't work. What, what would work, what is possible, what could we do? Yeah.

KIrralea: 23:02

And I think a lot of a lot of and I've had this conversation with. I've lost track of how many people we've had this conversation with and a lot of the feedback we get from it is our people won't like the change and and and I say I get that, i understand, i hear that, but Ask yourself how hard is it to recruit? how hard is retention at the moment? How hard is it to fish from that shallow pond? Sometimes people just have to accept that this is the reality we live in and these changes have to occur. And you know what people aren't going to be happy. It might mean that people's Times change. It might mean that something that they have done a certain way for a certain period of time is no longer like that. But the reality is that something needs to change.

Simon: 23:50

And you know what, maybe you can't do the same thing for everyone, and we just have to have the courage to live with that. Because you know, i'll give you an example. I I, at one point in my career, was seconded to another organization in a senior executive role. It was in childcare. I Didn't know much about childcare but I was. I brought, i guess, executive and leadership experience to it. That was what I was there for. I was actually the first ever non childcare to work there and they had between Contractors and staff they had nearly 300 people and I was the first ever non child care to work there and All the habits that developed were around childcare.

Simon: 24:33

So in childcare you need ratios if you've got x number of children and you need x number of staff, and so working hours are fairly rigid, fairly set. For that reason although they're having to challenge that now because there's such a massive shortage in the admin area, which was fairly, you know, 20 odd people, all ex-child carers Every time they I had one. What tweaked me to this was I had one team member Who I would get. She would accrue toil, so additional hours, and then she would send me applications to use some toil and I would get about four a week. Literally. She needed to go and pick a daughter up from something and I'd get a an application to use toil for 35 minutes, or she wanted a longer lunch break and I just looked at that.

Simon: 25:24

I couldn't work out what was going on at first and I realized that they had the same mentality To administration work, where there's none of that requirement that they had, to childcare, where there's a ratio, and I Implemented a process where we said You just manage your own hours. You can't be late for work because there's no official start time. We need people on deck at a certain time. So as a team, you work out what that looks like and as long as one of you is here, that's fine. So we left it to the seams to self manage that.

Simon: 25:55

And one of the biggest bits of pushback I got was it's not fair because we can't do that for the child carers and I had to say the fact that we can't do it for everyone doesn't mean we shouldn't do it for the people that we. And it was just such, it was such set thinking and it was costing me so much administration time and it was causing so much grief and so much resentment and As soon as we abolished it. It took a little while, maybe two months, and all of a sudden people couldn't believe would ever live that way before.

KIrralea: 26:26

This is so prevalent in organizations that have different departments, isn't it Like? absolutely?

Simon: 26:30

I just think.

KIrralea: 26:33

Factory office. Yeah, that that kind of situation like it and the reality is that it You get what you get and you don't get upset sometimes. You know what I mean And it's not. It's not our job to every. You get what you need is more, probably more to the point. No, you get what you get, you get what you need, and that means of different teams and the organization are different And the need is not for the admin stuff to be there at the same time as the childcare staff and absolutely, it's give and take, and so, whilst you might not get exactly the same as what one department is getting, you may get something different in another way.

Simon: 27:11

That's what you need, you know if I do build, if a bill didn't get processed at 9 o'clock in the morning, it didn't matter if a child sitting by themselves in a childcare center It did matter. So, but it took. It took more courage to say we're gonna do something that's not equal for everyone. Now I think it comes down to that whole distinction between equal and fair.

KIrralea: 27:32

Doesn't know, you know.

Simon: 27:35

It's If we were being fair, and we tried to be. We asked the question What's the flexibility we can offer each of our teams? Yeah, what can we do to help them balance this complex life They've got. What can we do To have? what was the moments? the magic moments, the memorable moments?

Simon: 27:55

that matter moments that matter. What can we do to help them Engage in those moments that matter? and we could do that with people who had more rigid hours. We could still offer the moments that matter. So it's that's the fair thing is saying what can I do for them? The crazy thing is trying to say, well, it's got to be equal if one, if that applies to them, that's it. It just doesn't work. That's not the world we live in. It's fanciful. So I love it. Clearly, that's that's. You've made my day with the moments that matter. I'm glad you.

Simon: 28:27

I'm glad you held that back all week. It must have killed you. Tell our listeners about the situation you explained to me yesterday that led to a a Lower quality candidate getting a job Because of their ability to work with rigid rules.

KIrralea: 28:51

Oh, this was a conversation I had earlier in the week but it actually the more I thought about it the more I reflected on that. I've had Other like. I've had so many conversations like this with not just people we work with but people that I know that working organizations. It was a position that they had going and it was a set start time, so it might have been five to one or something like that, and There was a person that applied for it that they had a pool of candidates that they were like Not really great, not really great. And then a person applied for it that could work school hours nine till three and or whatever it is. I don't quite be on the hours, but it was the same amount of hours, but it was an adjusted time.

Simon: 29:43

And with no real reason they had to work the other hours other than that's what their predecessors are done.

KIrralea: 29:48

Yeah, and That person was the higher candidate, like the more qualified. Perfect for it. But the norm in that organization was we start at this time, this is the time we're recruiting for, or what people are gonna say why does that person get to start later and not us? Oh, we'll just go with the lower candidate. Yeah and that's what happened and, like I said, i reflected on that and it was yesterday, when I was actually driving into town to take my kids to sport, that I thought I could recall.

Simon: 30:17

Off to a moment.

KIrralea: 30:17

the matters Off to a moment the matters, yeah, but I could recall two or three conversations similar to that, where someone had said to me they're in the process of recruiting and it was actually a single mum that had applied for it and they were absolute front runner That they could only work 8.30, the same amount of hours, but couldn't start to 8.30 because they put their kids on the bus and got there And it was like, oh no, we need someone 6 to 3 or 7 to 4 or whatever it was.

Simon: 30:48

And is that based on a real rule or someone's preference and an imagined thing?

KIrralea: 30:53

And a hesitant to lean into the uncomfortable and say to people it's not even worth it.

Simon: 30:58

Oh well, open a can of worms.

KIrralea: 31:00

That's exactly right And you know this is a lesson I teach my kids, all the time.

Simon: 31:05

Open the can of worms and have the conversation, because maybe some of the people who will say why do they get that? maybe you're about to lose them, maybe someone else out there will offer them the flexibility that they need, or maybe just the flexibility they want. And if you literally cannot offer that flexibility, well that's just, it's going to happen. But if you can and you don't, that's a little bit tragic because you lost someone you could have kept, because you weren't prepared to look past down.

KIrralea: 31:36

I just think about the amount of people I know, and whether they be friends, acquaintances, people I know that are single dads, single mums. That could absolutely be such a great asset.

KIrralea: 31:52

An incredibly grateful and engaged Their ability to only work school hours means that they don't get the opportunities, and I think that this is what employers are missing out on. Become an employer that stands out from other people because of this flexibility, because you know what you might have. Someone that goes, you know, oh yeah, i actually know two or three people that are looking for work like that And suddenly you're no longer fishing in a shallow pond, you're fishing in a bigger pond because you've got that bait. People suddenly go oh, not only do they offer flexible hours, but they value that people can. Only you know that I don't have the ability. I don't have anyone else to rely on. I have to get my kids off to school, or I have an elderly parent that lives with me, or I have someone that I have to care for that I can't physically leave until certain time, but when you have me there, you will absolutely have me there. And there's just so many follow-ons from this the discretionary effort. You know the performance and the hearts that people reach like I.

KIrralea: 32:49

Just organisations need to challenge their norms and ask themselves why do we do this?

Simon: 32:56

And if we?

KIrralea: 32:56

only do this because we don't want the pushback. What are we missing out on? How can we make this pool bigger?

Simon: 33:02

This is how much of a no-brainer. I think this is Many years ago and I'm talking a lot of years ago we did some work with a major fire service And people go. Are you serious? Was this really like that In those days? they would not hire someone that was female. They would not hire someone that had different sexual preferences. They had so many boundaries around who they could recruit And they constantly bemoaned the fact that there weren't many good recruits around And what they were doing was eliminating well over 50% of the potential candidate pool based on stupid stereotypes and dated ideas.

Simon: 33:57

And this was when I say it was a long time ago. It wasn't long enough ago for us to look at it and go well, that's what it was like in those days. It had gone way too long. This is going to be the same. We're going to look back and we're going to say did we really once upon a time expect people to turn up with no control over their working day in circumstances where that wasn't justified, in circumstances where it was just habit?

Simon: 34:28

I think this is going to be as big, because that whole shift to flexible working arrangements is a tsunami that we're signing and it's going to overtake businesses that aren't prepared to adapt, and I really think we'll look back and it will be the same. Are you serious? We had that attitude because, to be honest, the lack of flexible working arrangements is discriminatory. It definitely impacts some groups in society more than others. It absolutely means that organisations are putting themselves through a struggle to find good people that they could not solve in a heartbeat, but they could make better in a heartbeat simply by thinking differently.

KIrralea: 35:13

Yeah, challenge those norms. leaders, challenge those norms.

Simon: 35:18

Kerala. as usual, you've been provocative. You've found something that's got the passions flowing. I love it when you bring as a front page leadership, So looking forward to the next one.

KIrralea: 35:30

Me too, thank you.

Simon: 35:32

In the meantime, listeners stay authentic.