In this episode we chat to Miguel Diaz, CEO of Parkinsons Australia.
Join us as we uncover the secrets to creating a thriving workplace culture in the age of remote work, and unlock the potential of purpose-driven organisations. Our insightful discussion will leave you with valuable insights on how to balance financial sustainability with mission-driven success, and how to navigate the challenges and opportunities that come with working for a greater cause.
Change is inevitable, and it's never been more important to master the art of change management. Miguel shares his experiences on how to bring people on board with new initiatives, create buy-in, and leverage purpose-driven motivations to power your team through uncertain times. Discover the resilience he gained from the pandemic and how striving for positive change can make a lasting impact.
Miguel talks us through how we shift, rather than pivot. He talks us through the power of planting your foot and changing direction without losing sight of your goals.
We are so grateful for Miguel's time, and listeners can connect with him on Linked In here
For more resources, check out our website, and find inspiration to fuel your journey towards a high performing culture of Authenticity.
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Want to check out how Authentic your organisation is? Take our free online Authentimeter Assessment tool here
You can find full shownotes for this episode and more here
Visit our website The Real Learning Experience
Follow us on instagram or Linked In
Got a question for the Podcast? You can drop us a voice message via instagram or email us at: theculturenerds@reallearning.com.au
Thanks to our Podcasting producer, Josh at Deadset Podcasting for all his work behind the scenes.
Thanks for listening!
In this episode we chat to Miguel Diaz, CEO of Parkinsons Australia.
Join us as we uncover the secrets to creating a thriving workplace culture in the age of remote work, and unlock the potential of purpose-driven organisations. Our insightful discussion will leave you with valuable insights on how to balance financial sustainability with mission-driven success, and how to navigate the challenges and opportunities that come with working for a greater cause.
Change is inevitable, and it's never been more important to master the art of change management. Miguel shares his experiences on how to bring people on board with new initiatives, create buy-in, and leverage purpose-driven motivations to power your team through uncertain times. Discover the resilience he gained from the pandemic and how striving for positive change can make a lasting impact.
Miguel talks us through how we shift, rather than pivot. He talks us through the power of planting your foot and changing direction without losing sight of your goals.
We are so grateful for Miguel's time, and listeners can connect with him on Linked In here
For more resources, check out our website, and find inspiration to fuel your journey towards a high performing culture of Authenticity.
******************************************************
Want to check out how Authentic your organisation is? Take our free online Authentimeter Assessment tool here
You can find full shownotes for this episode and more here
Visit our website The Real Learning Experience
Follow us on instagram or Linked In
Got a question for the Podcast? You can drop us a voice message via instagram or email us at: theculturenerds@reallearning.com.au
Thanks to our Podcasting producer, Josh at Deadset Podcasting for all his work behind the scenes.
Thanks for listening!
Before we get into today's episode, we want to acknowledge the privilege of living and working on Aboriginal land and we pay our respects to the elders, past, present and emerging. Hello listeners, and welcome back to another episode of Authenticity Trent's Forming Workplace Culture. I'm here with my co-host, simon Tyson.
Speaker 3:Hello Kirillie, How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm good, it's Friday. What's not to love?
Speaker 3:about Friday.
Speaker 1:But we love work. We do, we do. But we also love the end of the week, which means there's a day off of sport and craziness and organizing kids and all that. So that's what Friday means to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it does, and I love work and I struggle to call it work, but I do enjoy knowing that tomorrow I don't have to move quite as fast.
Speaker 1:Simon, do you want to talk to us a little bit about today's guest?
Speaker 3:I do. But before I do that, can I talk to you about a meeting I had today?
Speaker 1:Yes, you can.
Speaker 3:In fact, i'd like to talk to you about two meetings I had today, one of which was with you And listeners. I haven't told Kirillie what I'm going to talk about, so that's why she's sounding surprised.
Speaker 1:That was my nervous laugh that everybody just heard, then We've been on three more days today, so I'm wondering where you're going and what.
Speaker 3:Yeah then, that's my point, I only just thought of this. This morning I had a meeting with a lady who works in an organization very close to where I work and live. And lovely lady, fascinating lady, i love some of her ideas about the workplace and she's got very strong ideas about flexible work arrangements etc. And we were talking about how much she loves going into the office and she mentioned that they haven't had anyone quite a big organization who has asked to work purely from home. And it occurred to me during that meeting because we have people we work with that embrace flexible work arrangements, we have people we work with that struggle with flexible work arrangements.
Speaker 3:And it just really occurred to me that if we've got people who are saying I don't want to come to the office at all, we should be asking why. And I don't mean we should be asking the team member why. We should be asking ourselves why And I fully accept there will always be that odd one or two And I don't mean odd as in peculiar, i mean the occasional person who just wants to work from home all the time. But if people don't want to be in our workplace, i think there's got to be a reason, because the reason we work is because we want to make some money. I know that. But the reason we choose a particular workplace is far, far more complex than that. So we might go to work because we need to pay the bills, but we choose a particular workplace because we get so much other stuff out of it. Classic example and this brings me to the second meeting How long have you and I been on zoom today?
Speaker 1:Approximately five hours, five minutes and 24 seconds Excellent. I'm counting how much time I've got left, by the way. No, just kidding. We've been on zoom for about five hours.
Speaker 3:Yep, five, five and a half hours, and the only reason we got off zoom was to get on to Zencast to record the podcast, and when we do that, finish that, we'll be back on zoom. People like to connect. We enjoy, even though we're in different offices, we enjoy working together. Now we've got a lot of projects we're working on together at the moment, but we leave zoom often in the background while we're working away And then we can ask each other questions, we can have a chat, we can talk some rubbish, we can go back to work.
Speaker 3:My point is that people want to be with other people. So if we've got a workplace culture where a lot of people saying I just don't want to be there, then I think we should be asking why? Because it goes against human nature. It goes against a lot of the reasons people choose to go to a specific workplace. Yes, we want to pay bills, but we also work for so much else And some of that comes from working together. So it just really occurred to me talking to this lady today that that workplaces do have people saying I just don't want to come in. And, as I say, my question is why?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's a valid question. But, to be honest, working in an office environment with 30 to 40 people doesn't really appeal to me either.
Speaker 3:No, but would you want to be isolated all the time? I mean, you've got the great privilege of having me at the other end of a zoom call.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, i agree, someone saying they don't want to come in at all, then absolutely you need to be asking And if it's a theme of people not wanting to come in, but I think the reality is COVID changed the way people are and the way people view the work from home aspect And I think people are quite comfortable, like I know. For me I don't need that. Like it's great that we are on zoom, but I don't thrive or need that interaction of 15 different people in a day to be able to do my job well.
Speaker 1:Do I want to sit here on my own and talk to no one Some days?
Speaker 3:yes, Well, to be fair, i have come back into the office when we've been on zoom and seen you there working by yourself, and I actually walked into my office thinking there were people in here having a meeting, but it was just you having a chat to yourself. So the consequences of you working alone for too long are not always great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, but I agree, Big picture level, you should be asking a question, but I do think that COVID has changed the way people view about being in a big office, like some people just feel like they're really comfortable.
Speaker 3:And this is coming from someone in my case who for a large part of the last 30 years has worked from home But I do believe if people don't want to be connected with the team at all, they're either that very unique individual or this industry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're very connected with the team. We have lots of zooms and lots of communication and things like that. So I think if you feel that someone is disconnected or by not coming to the office is because they want a disconnection from people, then that's absolutely. I agree. It's a valid point that you've raised. I think that very often, especially in a post-COVID world, we start to think that it's because of COVID and people are used to working at home, but maybe the question isn't asked enough why And dig a little deeper into why.
Speaker 3:I don't want to sit in traffic, i don't want to spend time commuting. I'm too busy as it is, so I get all of that. I want the convenience of just getting up and putting some old clothes on, and I want to have the ability to focus on tasks without interruption and all that sort of stuff. I want the extra time with my family and the extra life balance that working from home gives me, but not at the exclusion of everything else. We are seeing some organizations where that's a bit of a pattern And, as I say, if it's just one person, well that just happens, and if there's a pattern of it, then I think it's worth looking at One final thing.
Speaker 1:The problem that you could have is you do have a toxic workplace culture and people aren't coming in And you think it's because of their need to work at home, but really what he's also driving it is, yes, the ability and the benefits of working from home, but also the workplace is not where they want to be.
Speaker 3:Because if people are happier purely alone than they are with the team, then there's an issue, because most people, even you, need a mix. You need a mix of the two. One final one before we move on to our guest. I just want to give a call out to HR Plus. Had an awesome time delivering a keynote at their conference yesterday morning And I hope the rest of the conference was fabulous. But what a great crew to work with. We're a group of practice managers and allied health professionals and really love talking to them about a specific aspect of workplace culture, so just wanted to mention that while we're here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we love working with HR Plus. It's a great thing that we do annually Hey.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly Now. Today's guest is someone that I met many years ago. We actually had some conversations around the work we do And we sort of kept in touch over the years not particularly closely, not particularly often, I should say. We live in different states, but every now and then our paths have crossed And we invited him to join the podcast. As always, we'll let him introduce himself, But I really, in chatting with him beforehand and leading up to the podcast, I loved some of his insights and some of his takes on things And I was really pleased that he shared those with our guests. So how about we let him introduce himself?
Speaker 1:Sounds good to me.
Speaker 3:Over the interview.
Speaker 1:Welcome, miguel, to today's episode. We're really grateful to have you here and for you to give us some of your time. We think a really good place to start would be talk us a little bit about what you currently do in your current role and, i guess, the road that led you to there.
Speaker 2:Sure, thanks, curly, first of all, and it's a pleasure to be here joining you for this podcast. So look to tell you, i guess, a brief summary of my story. My current role is that I am the CEO of Parkinson's Queensland, which is the peak body for Parkinson's disease across our state, established in 1985 and currently supporting about four and a half thousand Queenslanders across the state, of the 18,000 Queenslanders that we believe are affected by Parkinson's disease at the moment. So man's job, and I've been in the role now for almost three and a half years. I guess what led me to this role was initially a career in corporate services. So I was in professional services for a number of years and that led to an opportunity to serve on an offer profit board.
Speaker 2:Back in 2005, i was invited to join the board of RSPCA Queensland whilst working for one of the big four professional services consulting firms. That, i guess, gave me the taste and the desire to do more in that space and to really make a difference to the lives of others. And I guess that was the beginning of my journey, which ultimately led me into operational roles within the for-purpose space. Over the last probably six years I made the move across into those operational roles. So I could really, i guess, capitalise on the commercial skills that I'd developed over all of those years and bring those to bear within the for-purpose sector for the benefit of others. So I mean, that's a very short summary of my career.
Speaker 3:The long journey.
Speaker 2:It has been a long journey and, if I'm honest, i have to say the last three and a half years have been a really long journey through the pandemic, which I'm sure a lot of us can relate to.
Speaker 3:And I think the learning curve going from corporate to purpose driven is steep enough anyway, without it being accompanied by all of that. What, for you, has been the And this is a journey I think a lot of leaders who listen have either been on, currently going on or will at some point in the future go on is that transformation from a corporate background to a for-purpose background, whether it be not for profit or charity, whatever it might be, but a purpose driven organisation. What's the difference, what's the big change you've had to make?
Speaker 2:Look, i guess the fundamental difference is that when you're in the for-purpose sector, you're driven by a mission, and so that is probably and that's probably something I guess, that a lot of us, when we make the transition, initially struggle with. I was fortunate enough that I had had a number of these experience on for-purpose boards, so I had had the opportunity to look at things from a governance perspective, but always with that mission in mind. I think when you're moving into an operational role and you come from a corporate background, in corporate we're driven by profitability, we're driven by efficiency, we're driven by a whole range of metrics. Now, i have to say that that doesn't necessarily have to change when you're moving to a for-purpose role, because I'm a firm believer that we're in the business of running a charity And I keep saying that to my team, i love that phrase And so, yeah, some of those business imperatives are still there.
Speaker 2:You need to just overlay that with the mission of the organization and ensure that you're staying true to that mission while at the same time still being sustainable financially and commercially, because if you're not, you can't continue to deliver the services that support the people that you're trying to support. So it is finding that balance, and that can take a little bit of time.
Speaker 1:I really love that. I really love we're in the business of running a charity. If we've got some people listeners that are in similar roles to you and they're thinking right now but how do you do that? What would be and I'm sure you could talk about this all day with your experience but what would be? maybe two main things they could concentrate on to start to do that.
Speaker 2:Look, i think the two things for me are efficiency, finding efficiencies and improving processes to streamline costs, save those kind of things. One of the and this isn't just exclusive to the full purpose space right, because we've seen it. We saw it during the GFC, for those of us who were around then, and we've seen it during COVID One of the easiest things that leaders can do when they're trying to cut costs is to get rid of people. Now, anyone can do that. That's the easy bit. Let's be honest.
Speaker 2:Our resources, our people, our human capital is one of the most important things we can have as an organization or we have as an organization, but it can also be one of the most costly. That's an easy lever to pull, but it's not always the most effective. We saw it during the GFC and I was part of that of an organization that jettisoned a whole lot of people and then struggled to recruit those skills back when things picked up again. That's not necessarily always the right lever to pull. Sometimes it's one that you have to pull, but it's not always the most effective one.
Speaker 2:For me, as an off-a-profit organization, it's about finding efficiency, finding improving processes, looking at everything from your procurement to looking at how you can reduce costs through procurement practices, all of the things that as a business are commercially important, you've got to do in an off-a-profit space. Then the other side of the equation is not being afraid to really leverage and drive the brand's worth for commercial benefit. What I mean by that is I've seen it all too often with charity sale. But we're a charity. We can't really go out and push for commercial outcomes in this space or that space.
Speaker 3:It's almost apologetic, isn't?
Speaker 2:it. It's almost apologetic. I was in a situation in a previous off-a-profit which I won't name, but I had staff tell me when I questioned why we were paying full price for services related to various events and activities that we were undertaking we're afraid to ask, to say that we're a charity and that we need special consideration. My message was well, that's exactly why we should be asking for special consideration. Not be afraid to say, hey, we're a charity. We need you to work with us to be able to deliver this outcome at the best possible commercial rate, whatever that might be, for whatever service that might be. Not being afraid to leverage that and, equally, not being afraid to attach value to the brand of the organization when you're looking for sponsors, partners. There is that bit of an apologetic. Well, we can't ask for too much because we're a charity, we'll. Actually, what is the value of an organization aligning to your brand and how you maximise that value so that you can deliver more services to the people that you're helping?
Speaker 2:Ultimately that's the mission, right.
Speaker 3:There's a cultural shift, of course, that goes along with this, isn't there One of the phrases that really stuck with me when we spoke last week? you described yourself as having joined a 36-year-old startup, and there was obviously a bit of a cultural journey that you need to take people on here as well. Talk to us a bit about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, it was very much like that, everything from a business process perspective. We were a very heavily paper-based organisation. Very much every record was paper-based. We had no ability to work remotely, so when the pandemic hit, we really had to scramble. I joined the organisation as its CEO three weeks before the pandemic was declared. At the time we had one laptop in the entire organisation. Everything else was office-based PCs and everything was paper-based.
Speaker 2:I guess one of the things that COVID did which was really positive is it fast-tracked a lot of that which I had already identified I wanted to do over a period of time. We just had to fast-track it during that initial COVID period. It was finding those efficiencies, looking at even simple things like we had a massive office space and about a third of it was taken up with archive boxes with paper files. That has a cost, not only a material cost, because you're putting all of that paper into boxes, but we were paying for office space just to keep those boxes in storage Instantly that reduced cost. It was also about questioning some of our existing service contracts, arrangements that have been in place for a long time and finding new providers that could do it better and more economically. It was just systematically working through all of the operational elements of the organisation and trying to find efficiencies wherever we could, streamlining reducing costs. In the first 12 months we were able to reduce costs by 15%.
Speaker 3:Without losing any staff.
Speaker 2:COVID forced us to make a couple of adjustments, but they were minor. We lost one staff over that whole period, so it was minimal.
Speaker 3:Yeah, fantastic. How did you bring people along with that, because they'd obviously been doing things a certain way for a long time And you walked into this 36 year old startup. How did you convince people that it was okay to change all these things?
Speaker 2:For me, it's always about finding what makes people tick So why are they there? What are they hoping to get out of the role that they're in, how do they fit into the organisation? and then bringing them along on the journey. In this case, it was about bringing people on that journey that, hey, this is going to make our job easier because we're going to be able to streamline things. The other important element was that people could see that by doing this, we were going to be able to free up some of our capital to improve our service delivery at the back end, and so they could see that that was actually ultimately going to make a difference to the people that we were supporting on the ground, and that was a big driving factor for a lot of them that they could see that it would make a difference.
Speaker 3:Brings it back to that purpose driven, doesn't it That we might be changing some of our habits, but we're staying true to our purpose and potentially delivering on that purpose more effectively.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, and I guess one of the real privileges of working in the for purpose sector is working with people that are really passionate about what they do and very passionate about the support they provide the community that they're serving. I feel really privileged to be in that environment and to lead a group of people that are very passionate about that. It's being able to capture that, nurture it and really build on it to maximise the outcomes for the organisation.
Speaker 3:Fantastic, Miguel. you mentioned one thing when we spoke last week you talked about was a big lesson you took out of COVID and coming into that role was you talked about how you were more resilient than you thought you were. But another big lesson was that how quickly things can be achieved in a short space of time if there's a driver for it. I think there's such an important lesson there for all businesses about change. Talk to us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, i think well, definitely And personally, covid taught me a lot about myself and about our organisation.
Speaker 2:I think personally, i did realise that I'm a lot more resilient than I even thought I was myself, because we went through and we all went through some really challenging times And certainly I think, personally and as an organisation, we've actually come out stronger at the other end. I think I said to you also last week, simon, that I'm not big on the term pivoting. When that became a catchphrase back during the height of COVID, i was speaking to a few of my former colleagues from professional services and I actually, who were big on that pivot word and I actually said to them that I found that word incredibly limiting, because when I think of pivoting, i think of me standing in the same position, but just changing my direction slightly. So all I'm doing is I'm not actually changing my position, i'm just changing my outlook. Now, that's important up to a point, but I think what COVID taught me is that you've got to be prepared to change your position and you've got to be prepared to do it quickly And really quickly, in that you try something, it fails, you drop that, you move to the next thing. I think if COVID taught me anything was to not be afraid to try and fail and then move on. Because if we, if we didn't, and if we didn't change and the men does, and you know, let's face it, covid was was the time when there was so much uncertainty that, you know, we didn't know from one day to the next, were we going to be locked down, were we not? what was going to stay open, what was going to close. So we had to adapt really quickly And so we had to change position on a number of things very, very quickly. So I think it was a great lesson.
Speaker 2:I would hate to think that you know now that we're at the other end And whilst COVID is still around, we are at the other end. You know, we're not no longer in lockdown and all those kind of things, but I'd hate to think that that we would all just go back to the way things were. I really do hope that. Yeah, i do hope that we've, you know, stick to the lessons that we've learned and we continue to do things like we have done, because the reality is that there'll be something else that comes up in the future that we'll need to adapt to, and I think you know we need to be able to do it quickly.
Speaker 2:So you know we were able to develop and roll out new services in line with, you know, with COVID, with what was happening with COVID, in a matter of months. You know things that might have taken a couple of years we were able to do. You know we. To give you an example, we have approximately 32 support groups across the state. Obviously they're face to face. During COVID that all shut down Within the space of four months. We put together a telephone peer support program from scratch, built it, went to government, secured funding and rolled it out all in the space of four months.
Speaker 2:Yeah ordinarily that should probably take 12, if not 18 months to do, but we fast tracked a lot of things And we also built as we went. So we didn't wait for everything to be absolutely perfect, because we couldn't we just had to do it really quickly.
Speaker 3:Isn't that a great lesson for businesses?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I was going to say is that something that you've continued to do? Like obviously we don't have the same urgencies that we did during the pandemic, And it made me think of when we spoke to some people that work in Silicon Valley. They often have moved fast and break things, which is building with that same urgency. Is that something that you've continued to do now, knowing what's possible If something else, your projects now. Is that something that you now go? OK, we can move with this urgency and achieve great things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, absolutely, and we're doing it again. We're doing it again now with a new project that we're rolling out, hopefully at the end of this year. But look, and I've always been so, i guess for me I've always instinctively believed that if you're 80% there, you're there, just do it And then build the rest as you go, because the reality is that you'll probably need to tweak things anyway. I've never been one to wait until everything was absolutely perfect to move on something. I think you've just got to go.
Speaker 2:I think what COVID did was it just accelerated that at a rate of knots, because we were in a situation where we had 4 and 1 half thousand people left without any support because they couldn't attend those really important meetings that they all looked forward to on a regular basis, and so we had to move super fast. And that was the driver. But, yeah, we've carried that on. Kerala, lee, absolutely. And I guess I temper that by saying we don't just make decisions on the spur of the moment without having the data behind us, and you've got to do the right analysis and have the business case. But you can fast track that absolutely.
Speaker 1:And it's easy for businesses and leaders to slip back into that pre-pandemic way and not carry forward the lessons and the great lessons that we've learned, in that when we have got a well thought out and planned idea, we can move forward with urgency and achieve great things. We don't want to always slip back into the ways of the world before we want to take what we've learned and really capitalize on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, and I think, as leaders, I guess there's always the risk that we want to be right every time and we want to have the answers to everything all the time.
Speaker 2:And I'm a realist My view is that, hey, I don't have the answers to every question And I'm not going to get everything right all the time, But if you don't try and you don't push ahead and you've also got to rely on the people around you you've got to have the confidence in your teams and their ability to deliver And you've got to empower them to be able to do that. So I think for me, that's the other important lesson And it's not just from COVID, But I think the other really important lesson that was, I suppose, amplified during COVID is the need to have the right people around you, the right team around you, the right skills, the right support. Even As a leader, you need to have support yourself outside of the organization, whether that's someone that you can use as a sounding board or a mentor or whatever it is. We can't sit in isolation. So I think that was probably the other lesson that I think we all know, But sometimes we just get caught up in things and we don't stop to take stock.
Speaker 1:And for the leaders that can embrace that uncomfortability of always. We feel like we have to have the answers And we feel like we have to appeal that we're in control. But when we can embrace that, that actually becomes one of our greatest strengths as leaders And it's when we're at our most vulnerable. But it's also when we create those great relationships with the people that we work with And it just goes. It becomes that snowball effect of the positivity that moves forward The foundations with the team.
Speaker 2:Look, i can honestly say it's liberating in certain respects, but you're right, it does create a much stronger relationship within your teams where people can see that. You know what? I remember talking to a psychologist and she'd done a presentation I forget where it was, but she talked about. We are human beings, not human doings, and I think, as leaders, we have to remember that we're human beings And so are our teams, and it's not just about the role that you do or the skills that you have or the qualifications that you have. We're all people And we have to treat each other as human beings And acknowledge that we have strengths and weaknesses.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i'm a really big believer in that human being before human doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, that's the human being drives the human doing, don't they? That's so, miguel, something you said about the importance of being surrounded by good people. Some people seem to be incredibly fortunate or incredibly lucky to be surrounded by good people, but the question for me is is that luck, or are some leaders incredibly skilled at bringing the good out in the people around them, so they seem to be surrounded by good people? What do you think comes first?
Speaker 2:Look, in my personal experience I've had to work at finding the right people to complement the skills within a team. I don't think you can just rely on luck. I do, and I guess in previous roles and previous experience that I've had working with other leaders. Sometimes there's a tendency for us to try and recruit people that are like-minded or promote people from within who we feel are almost a reflection of us as leaders. Exactly, i try and avoid that at all costs. I always try and look for the skills that will complement the broader team, and culture is really important in that, obviously, because well, maybe not, obviously, i don't know For me, the skills and experience and qualifications that someone might bring to the role are just as crucial as their attitude and the way that they will fit into the culture of the organisation.
Speaker 2:There's quite a number of things that I look for, but I don't think you can rely on luck. I think you actively have to go out and identify where your gaps are and then go out and look for those people that are going to support what you're trying to do. I wouldn't want to leave it to luck. There are leaders, i guess that can attract the right people.
Speaker 3:I guess my question was more about do some people look lucky because they're actually skilled at bringing the good out in the people that are around them and whereas another leader may not bring the same value out of that same person and may look unlucky? In other words, is there a fair amount of the leader being responsible for their own outcomes and finding the best in the people around them and all of a sudden they seem to be surrounded by good people?
Speaker 2:Yes, look, i would absolutely agree with that. I think it is something that some people can do and do really effectively. As I said, i think it's something you have to work at and you've consciously got to do. It may appear that some people are lucky, but I think if you dig behind it, i think you'll find that there's probably in the majority of cases they've worked at it to get to the point they're at, but it's something you also need to keep working at. You can't just bring the people in and think, oh well, that's it, i've done what I need to do. You've actually got to continue to nurture that, continue to empower people and give people the opportunity to shine and to really demonstrate what they can do.
Speaker 3:My mother-in-law says that you're the average of the people you mix with, and so you want to surround yourself with people who bring your averages up. But the other question is, of course, what am I doing for their averages? Am I good for their averages? I have one final thing I'd love to ask you, and I'm going to put you on the spot here a bit. I love what you said about pivoting. I've never thought of it before Me, neither.
Speaker 1:I've never thought of it like that, but it's so true.
Speaker 3:It implies that I'm willing to change, but only within my comfort zone. I'm willing to stay where I am and look around. I really like that. So here's the question without notice and maybe you've seen this coming and you've already prethought it What would you use instead of pivot?
Speaker 2:Look, i would just simply use the word shift. I think it's as simple as that, because I think, if we really analyse what we've done during the pandemic, i think very few of us have just stood in the same spot and just changed direction. I think most of us have had to shift our position on any one of a number of things, and so I would just simply use the word shift.
Speaker 3:Fantastic And I think about. You've made me really think about our own business. And if someone said to me, did you guys pivot during the pandemic? I would have said yes, but now I won't. I'll say no, no, we were much more imaginative than that. We shifted, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And, i think, my colleagues in other for-purpose organisations that I speak to, we have all shifted Yeah, we've all. Our view of things has shifted, marketly, i think. Even simple things as human beings about what's really important in life. I think our view has shifted. We haven't just pivoted, it's actually shifted to what's really important in life Brilliant.
Speaker 3:I think that's a great note to wrap up on, carolie, unless I'm cutting you off, have you got any other final questions?
Speaker 1:No, my question is similar to yours.
Speaker 3:It was very. I saw your face light up when Miguel said that. So you know I've been fascinating chatting with you, mate. I really appreciate it and all the best. And look, something else you've taught me today is just the scope of the organisation. I had no idea how broad the need was and how many people you supported. So thanks for sharing those insights invaluable for people in similar roles, but I actually think, invaluable for leaders across all sectors. So thanks very much for your time today.
Speaker 2:No, look, my absolute pleasure. Thank you for that, Thanks for the opportunity to chat And, yeah, thank you, and I wish everyone every success.
Speaker 1:Simon, let's chat and unpack some of the great topics that Miguel discussed with us in his interview.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like I said in the introduction, some of the things he mentioned when we've been chatting over the last few weeks. I was so glad that he picked them up And there was a theme there that I think is so important And that's about how quickly we were able to change because of COVID. I think one of the greatest frustrations for leaders is implementing change and the resistance and the grind that has to happen for positive change to occur. And what we absolutely saw and I had this experience as a leader myself in COVID that things that were going to take a long time, that were going to get a lot of resistance, all of a sudden happened overnight because they had to happen, and I really love that. I love the fact that we now know that's possible And I love the fact that leaders now know that if we can just create the catalyst, we can get important change to happen so much more quickly than we used to.
Speaker 3:If I may, right before COVID, i was working extensively with an organization, one of our clients. I was contracted to them And there was a major ICT plan that was going to be rolled out over two years. There was going to be a lot of difficulty getting the funding for it. There was a lot of resistance from the team because they were doing things in such an old fashioned way. This was in January 2020. We were two months into this laborious, horrible process of getting it to happen And I was. I have no expertise in the subject, i was simply helping lead it.
Speaker 3:Two months later, covid hit And four weeks later, 90% of that whole plan was in place because there was no choice but to get it in place. And I think in organizations the realization it's amazing what we can achieve when there's a burning platform that we've got to get off. And I think for leaders, if you want to create change, the lesson is find some catalysts, find some burning platforms, find something to give it impetus because fast, rapid, positive change is possible. And, as Miguel said, sometimes that happens because we're not paralyzed, waiting for everything to be perfect. We get it at 80% right, we have a go and then we tweak because we were going to have to tweak anyway. I really enjoyed that aspect of it, possibly because I related to it so much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i really liked when he spoke about pivoting and he doesn't like it, i knew you'd love that.
Speaker 1:Because I use it all the time And I was like this is so true What he's saying. And I was a netballer. I played netball up until Eight years ago and my daughter has just started playing netball, so pivoting is something that I've been actually teaching her, and as he was talking about it, i'm like it's so true, that's what I tell her to do Plant your foot, change direction, but don't move. Don't change where you are, but don't move where you're positioning. And so for him to say that he doesn't like the word pivot because it's limiting and your position doesn't change, only your outlook changes, i was like that is so true, i love it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i'm going to have to, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's going to be a real learned behavior that I'm going to have to change when I say we need to pivot because it's not really.
Speaker 3:That's not what we want to do, well, you taught me the word.
Speaker 1:I know, i remember the person. We did it really well during COVID, but we were pivoting.
Speaker 3:I don't think we pivoted.
Speaker 1:If he likes the word shift. We were shifting.
Speaker 3:I think, extending the netball analogy, in COVID our pivots we would have given away free throws, wouldn't we? Because we were moving that back foot all over the place. Is that allowed in netball?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we do have to say where you are. There was advancing penalties and everything through COVID.
Speaker 3:So often, people want to change without actually changing, or they want to change without letting go too much, and I totally agree with him. The word pivot sometimes it's enough, but the word pivot implies yeah, i'm actually going to hang on pretty hard here. I'm prepared to make some little adaptations, but I'm not going to make wholesale change. And sometimes that's enough, sometimes that's what we need to do, but sometimes we need to make a few leaps and bounds and we need to actually shift. Yeah, great pickup, really like it.
Speaker 1:And not only that, when he said be prepared to change position and move on after failure. Don't get stuck in the failure, be prepared to go. Ok, that didn't work out, What can we do? And we have the same winning and learning that we've adopted from people that have said that In our organisation there's winning and there's learning. But I think sometimes we can be really paralysed in failure and hesitant to shift and change the direction that we're going And make some fast decisions to change and have another crack at it. We can kind of go oh, that didn't work And that that leads us to hold back a little bit. So I really liked when he said be prepared to change position and move on after failure, because I think a lot, of, a lot of us can become really stuck in that failure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, one final thought from me, and this is something I'm going to pick up a bit in our next episode, because we've already recorded the next episode. Wonderful interview. Can't wait to get that one produced and online as well. But the business of running a charity I love that mix of words. We're in the business of running a charity and having been a senior leader in a not-for-profit, i think there is and particularly not-for-profits that haven't gone through a bit of a growth phase. And this not-for-profit had close on 200 people, in fact more if you include some contractors. They were only just going through that growth phase of not being ashamed of making money. And I think it's madness when a not-for-profit aims for break-even, because that's very short-term thinking. That's going to go barely up very quickly. So the phrase that I used a lot there was not for loss, and I think it's really important for leaders out there.
Speaker 3:In charities, in not-for-profits, you still run a business. The only difference is what you do with this surplus, with the profits. In a corporate environment, the shareholders make the money, they divvy up the profits. In a not-for-profit, in a charity, those profits, they enable us to do so many great things for the people we exist to serve and they create stability. So something I will pick up on a bit more in the next episode because I'm really, really passionate about it.
Speaker 3:But I actually did a roadshow for all the staff in that organization and talked to them about why the not-for-profit was actually a destructive mentality and talked to them about why profit was important and what it enabled us to do for the organization and for the people we were there to serve. And their honest feedback to me was no one's ever spoken to us like that before, no one's ever told us this stuff before, and they really bought into it and they really understood it. So that's something I'm a bit passionate about. For anyone out there running a not-for-profit or anyone out there working in a charity, i think it's important to think of it like a business, run it like any other business, just do different things with the surplus.
Speaker 1:My last discussion point is when he spoke about when he had a psychologist mention. We are human beings before human doings And this is something that I absolutely believe in, and we have a previous podcast episode that we will link in this episode that is called Human Being Before Human Doing. It's very much about what Ben Crow, who I love listening to, i love what the work that he does is about, and he says that the human being before human doing is the shift to what is important in your life. It's not I will be happy when I get this, it's, i will be happy when I am this, when this is the person I am Very much about live who you want to be before what you want to be, and in doing that, you let go of other people's opinions, which is really hard to do, i know. But I really love that, miguel, that outlook of the human being before human doing, and I think that was really reflective of the type of leader that he is.
Speaker 3:I agree, i have a slightly different take on the human being or not, i'll be happy when I get and not when I'm happy. When I am Just, i will be happy, and I've got a personal philosophy of trying to always be happy but not necessarily satisfied. So for me, happiness is a choice in the moment, and I wish everyone would make that choice in every moment, and I know that we can't do that. If you're happy in every single moment, you're probably mad. You know that would deny the range of human emotions. But I like the thought of being happy now because we choose to be, but always striving to be something more. So for me, it's often about always happy, never satisfied, so always striving, but being happy in the moment. But I think it's versions of the same thing, isn't it So, kirill, as we wrap up, i just want to tell our listeners if you like what we offer, if you like our material.
Speaker 3:There is so much good free stuff on our website, reallearningcomau That's one word to El's reallearningcomau. We've got a blog, we've got all the back episodes of the podcast, we've got some free downloadable resources And we've also got some courses that might interest our listeners and our range of services. So if you love what we do, whether you want to pay for it or not, our websites are great place to go. Final word to you, kirill Lee, just by tradition.
Speaker 1:I don't have anything to add to that.
Speaker 3:Wow, Over an hour On that note, then it's a wrap.