A commercial head and a people heart - with Alison Geale, CEO of Bravehearts

Is it possible to lead with vulnerability and authenticity while maintaining a strong, commercial approach? Our guest, Alison Geale, CEO of Bravehearts, says "Yes." Transitioning from the media sector to a non-profit organisation dedicated to preventing and treating child sexual abuse, Alison takes us through her remarkable journey. From discussing her initial caution approaching such a sensitive subject to how the words of her daughter sparked her determination, Alison's story is as inspiring as it is insightful.

Navigating the for-purpose space entails a different energy and dynamic compared to the corporate world. Alison opens up about the unique challenges and rewards of working in this sector. She sheds light on the implementation of KPIs and scorecards to evaluate performance based on skill rather than just devotion. 

Leadership, at its core, is about collaboration and authenticity. There's no room for silos when your mission is to make a difference. We discuss the importance of active listening, managing a remote workforce, and the art of balancing a commercial head with a people heart. Alison’s experiences and insights remind us that it’s not just about being acknowledged for our work, but recognizing that when we partner with others, we can achieve more. Tune in for an episode filled with valuable leadership lessons, and discover how vulnerability and authenticity can transform the way we lead.

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Thanks to our Podcasting producer, Josh at Deadset Podcasting for all his work behind the scenes.

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Transcript

Kirralea: 0:00

Before we get into today's episode, we want to acknowledge the privilege of living and working on Aboriginal land and we pay our respects to the elders, past, present and emerging. Hello listeners, and welcome to Authenticity Transforming for Playscope, please. I have with me here my co-host, simon Tyson. Welcome, simon.

Simon: 0:28

Thank you, kirillie, good to be here again.

Kirralea: 0:31

Yes, and we have a very interesting guest with us today.

Simon: 0:35

We do. It was a fantastic interview that we recorded a few days back now and it was wonderful. It was a slightly longer one and because we're committed to making the episode shorter, we're going to make this introduction super short, aren't we? So we can play the interview in full without extending the episode too far.

Kirralea: 0:56

Did you want to introduce our guest?

Simon: 0:58

Yes, i would thank you, kirillie. Our guest is Alison Gill, who is the CEO at Brave Hearts, and it's an organisation that I knew of because my kids had been through a Brave Hearts program at school It was part of the entire school did it and they came home and talked about it and I hadn't actually made the connection. I've known Alison for many years. She worked with organisations I've worked with in the past. I've worked with her as a consultant, not as an employee. She was employed there and I worked there as a consultant.

Simon: 1:33

So I knew of Alison and when I reconnected with her I made the connection with Brave Hearts. So she's got a fantastic story. I really love her journey from a corporate I'm not going to say a corporate animal, laura, although I just did, she was a corporate beast, she was right-mack corporate mode to someone who's really made a journey to working with purpose. I won't say any more because I don't want to spoil the interview, but for me that was actually absolutely one of the highlights and not something I expected when I first started talking to Alison about being our guest.

Kirralea: 2:20

Great, let's get into the interview.

Simon: 2:33

So I'd love to welcome a guest. Today. We've got with us Alison Gill, who's the Chief Executive Officer at Brave Hearts. I was excited to have Alison here, because I've heard about Brave Hearts primarily from my children my two youngest children coming home from school and telling me that I've been through the program. Welcome Alison, first of all, and secondly, tell us a little bit about what you do.

Alison: 2:58

Yes, thank you. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. Brave Hearts is an organisation for a quarter of a century that has focused solely on the prevention and treatment of child sexual abuse. So that is our dogged determination each day that children get appropriate personal safety education, that adults around them are trained and motivated and aware and know what to do should a child disclose, and we provide counselling services, therapeutic and support services to family members when this crime impacts their family. So it's incredibly worthwhile, important work that I'm excited to get out of bed every day and do, and an enormous shift from what I'd spent the most part of my professional adult life doing.

Kirralea: 3:51

Absolutely. Can you talk a little bit about how you ended up at Brave Hearts and what you did previously before going there?

Alison: 3:58

Yes, so I had a career in media, working for Australian media corporations across radio and television behind the scenes. So don't expect anything marvellous coming out of the speakers in an audio sense from me today in terms of radio quality. But behind the scenes in a sales management first a general management and then a group general management role across many different functions And I think radio and TV and media generally is just a collection of people that are slightly mad, not enough to be confirmed, but kind of. No one puts their hand up at school and says, oh you know, i just want to work in radio or TV. They might want to be a TV star or something, but certainly, you know it's not a coveted role to work behind the scenes And not a lot of people understand what goes into that. So it's a bunch of people that fell into that profession And I fell and stayed for a couple of decades and working in Not For Profit was never on my radar because of the two words not and profit. So in my previous life they never went together.

Simon: 5:18

Especially funny not if you know, Alison well.

Alison: 5:24

You know they don't go together. That's like an oxymoron. That doesn't happen. So it always has to be that they're nicely the for and the profit are nicely snug together. So I like to work for purpose And what? what we do isn't, i often say, for deficit.

Alison: 5:44

But I came, a board member of Braveheart's introduced me to the organization and I started talking to them about two years before I actually came over. So the topic of child sexual abuse, interestingly, is a difficult one to talk about And if I think about myself as a parent, one of the concerns about coming across was leaving the longest relationship of my life, which was my career, in a way the most consistent thing, which had in part defined me. You don't realize that until you leave, you don't realize how much of you is made up from experience in a place that you work in. So it's much more than just a name on a CV. I took a while because of the content and then you know, i kind of waxed and wane with regard to how much of that I might be exposed to. And as a CEO, you're an operational lead, so I'm not at the cold face and I can see and hear no more, no less around the crime than I could on the internet if I didn't work at Braveheart's.

Alison: 6:48

So I thought, if not me, who? and in fact it was my daughter that said that to me. If not you, who? So I was ready to wake up and I mean, it's good, making money is great. I think making money for purpose is even better. So I don't want to discredit anyone who's out there making a bucket of money on a product. Go for it, in fact, contact us and give us some of that. So, yeah, that's how it came to be. It came to be and it's been five years, almost next month.

Simon: 7:24

Yeah, that's it, it's. You really resonated with me when you talked about if I was in your shoes and asked to do the same role. It's exactly what would happen to me. Honestly, it would be. Can I cope with the content of this? Yeah, i think it's really insightful that, first of all, you recognise that and, secondly, you're prepared to just put that out there honestly, because I'd really struggle with it. I'd struggle with the fact that I was struggling with it.

Alison: 7:56

Yes, and it's you, yeah, correct. Why am I struggling with this? It makes complete sense And I think, over the years and years, the way this crime works is in the shame, secrecy and silence place. So we don't, actually we don't even understand our own paradigms as people, as parents. We don't talk about that because that's not happening here. So therefore it's not happening anywhere. And you don't realise. I consider myself a reasonably progressive, open parent And yet there I was thinking the crime type was the reason. I might not want to go on. You don't realise that.

Alison: 8:37

And we see that with parents all the time who, when it comes to personal safety and they're introducing this topic to kids, they feel they're introducing this topic to kids and they're not The kids. When I mean, simon and I are only 35, of course, aren't we, simon? But no, but back in the day we, our kids, kind of held us as peers a little bit longer than they do today. You've got children, as they did, all natives, and we're the tourists. You know, you're handing your phone to your kid to say, look, can you sort that out please? I can't open this or something. So they know what's going on and we're just yeah. So it's good, important work And I had to shift a number of paradigms, both around the topic but also around my leadership style. That was an interesting yeah, that was an interesting shift too.

Kirralea: 9:28

Talk to us a little bit more about that shift in your leadership style.

Alison: 9:31

So it well, for a start I'd been in an organisation and I was a company girl. You know, i I won't call it a cult, that's not fair, but it's the same kind of dogged determination and devotion you have when you with an employee for 20 years and you progressed materially through that organisation and started off, you know, and was, you know I was held up as the, i started here and then I went to here and this too can be your journey And you know it has its own titles and you progress in advance to this role and this role And it's, you know, when you look at it it's kind of cold here. She, you know, like I used to bleed whatever colours of the logo depending on whatever merger or acquisition was happening at the time, like that, you know, and I was there all the time. So the, the way the organisation operated, was by and large the way I operated, and I do believe that the idea that someone doesn't bring themselves to work for me is I authentically can't manage that. So a lot of those lines blurred. You know how am I? you know, would I treat a problem that a friend brought me the same way I might treat a problem at work and invariably kind of yes, you know, if I was reading, you know, a book on failure or success, i'd apply it at work equally as I would at home. So when you're in the for purpose space, one of the things that is really. I mean, i worked in an organisation that made money out of air like the idea around that is crazy, right, that's insane. His little bit of air and your stock just doesn't hang around, right, like that's, that's gone, that moment's gone. You don't, you can't. Well, you can fire sale, but you can't retrospectively fire sales stock from a few months ago. So it's heavily driven, timely, you know.

Alison: 11:39

So the energy that goes in that kind of leadership vibe, you know, don't bore us get to the chorus. I just want to know what's going on. I'm not interested in the peripheral. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And then you hire people that just have exactly that same view and you're all there just being this D style with each other and winning and winning and very little. It's not a reflective kind of role, and that's the same in a lot of high energy corporate. You know whether it's airtime or you know products and for purpose or not, for profit, but not for deficit. World is But the paradigm I had. But I would walk in and there'd be a lot of very, very well-meaning people who are very, very quiet and Who would not have any of that energy. Now, in part, some of that's true, because what is held most dear when you're working in charities and for purpose You know it falls into it's the third sector. There's government, there's private, and then there's charities, often doing work that governments Can't do. They fund us to do.

Alison: 12:50

Yeah you know, having tenure, being there for a hundred years, meant the most Being cause connected. That was really important. So the shift came to let's take cause connected as a given. Of course, your course connected. So take that as a given. That's not a pre, that's, that's just a given.

Alison: 13:10

And The tenure piece can be as problematic as it can be wonderful. So if, if someone is in that role, the level of measurement of How well they do is about their devotion and turning up every day, not necessarily their skill set. So there was literally a shift between introducing language that People kind of went what, what, what do you mean? like a kp? what a kp? what? so if you looked at it, like Scorecards are good too, because they tell us when you're doing a great job like the absence of, the absence of Measurement was the biggest thing, because measurement was about direction and and this is where we're going and we're all going together And like you, you, you me, follow me, let's go, not you go ahead, i'm right behind you guys. So I I think the introduction of that was a big, a big Shift.

Alison: 14:14

From memory, you know, shifting my own internal paradigms. It wasn't an enormously quiet place, though I will say that was the biggest shift. Is it still? hmm, that's hard, because You know when you've been in a relationship with someone and I won't go off into any digressing weird stories But you know when you think I can't remember my day-to-day with that person anymore.

Alison: 14:36

Like, how did they like their? you know how you have rituals, right, like in relationships. I just can't remember any of mine, which is a good thing, but It's a bit like that. I can't, i struggle with the rituals because they've all become now what this is. Is it still quieter? I venture, yes, because Media, as a comparison or as a you know, from relating it back to that, you know someone would be sliding down a hallway in their underwear on a slip and slide, with a fairly What would have been mix of profanity and joy, and someone famous is walking in and someone else is upset because Something else has happened. I mean, from memory, i'm gonna say yes, i think it is. Maybe once I've been on a slip and slide, they're scary and certainly not down the hallway.

Alison: 15:34

But, No, i did not. No, i did not. So I'm gonna reserve my comment on that one. But I Think the profanity was a big difference. There's a lot more of that, you know a lot more in Like the corporate world.

Simon: 15:52

I think it kind of feels like there is, but it's a quieter one, you know, because it's a work maybe, i don't know the energy and the measurement that you talked about, because, having had some experience with some of the iterations of the, the media company that you were involved with, measurement was Everything, and I mean I remember periods of years where it was about EBITDA and I wonder whether a lot of the energy was related to achieving a really like. We got that outcome, we measured that, bam, whereas now maybe you're in a world where the energy is around why they're doing what they're doing and, yeah, that's the purpose. Is that true?

Alison: 16:35

Yeah, so it's really interesting that you say that, because and I You know, ebitda it probably should just be tattooed somewhere on me. You know, like it. That's all we lived for.

Simon: 16:48

So the members of that organization woke up in the middle of the night.

Alison: 16:55

Terrible, you know, but you do. You know if I'm faced with some really challenging positions now people think you're challenging. I'm like is that all you got? because really I could be a lot more stressed about stuff in the past. You know that feeling like you're, you know, dangling over a 10-story building balcony by your feet is kind of how Committed you know you were to profit. Now the drive is similar in that Some you know, if you don't get funding, you can't continue the work. So you are constantly a lot of the same principles. You know it's interesting When I think of Things that I used to talk.

Alison: 17:38

You know a reward for a job well done was a bigger job and that's all your life was, you know. So if you got that target, thank you, congratulations. Here's a bigger one now. I apply the same principles here and And it has grown I mean Braveheart's has grown significantly. So I feel that You have to treat when we were my successful in getting a program funded, the getting the programs funded, a paramount. If you switch out The overlord saying you have to get budget, you have to get target, you never once said, well, what if we don't? like? that was never an option but converse of not getting it in this role means The service doesn't exist, so you are even more driven. So creating a collective energy around This is what we're doing. It's almost, it's a perfect, perfect storm. I mean, from a sales perspective It's more difficult because you're not selling a product. So if you're looking for sponsors to partner with Braveheart's on any of our activities, you are almost asking them to feel good and Lies straight in bed at night because of the work that we do.

Simon: 18:57

You know I'm not selling my business case. You're selling them up, an ethical case almost.

Alison: 19:02

Yes, you are. We're not asking them to do the work, but we're asking them to. You know we'll do all the yucky heavy lifting, you just help us get there. So it's really similar in a way, in that you do need that energy and things are Time-stamped and they're not time stamp for every 30 days. But you know, a year goes by quickly and you have to be, you have to be Planning what happens if we can't continue that funding. Where else we're gonna get that money from? so same drive, which I'm Used to. I'm kind of like the only part of cricket This makes me really un-Australian that I'm interested in is the last 10 innings and there's a bit of a mathematical chase going on. So, like at the end of the financial year, i'm kind of at my best.

Simon: 19:44

But What did people in the organization make of this creature who arrived that, yeah, from from outer space somewhere. How did how did you land and what was that like?

Alison: 19:59

Yeah, i think cautiously, like cautiously at first, one of the I know the things that I do really well and authentically and I know The things that over the years has been lots of workarounds developed for me on the premise that you're gonna get 10 times More out of me if you do this than the tiny 10% you're gonna improve if, if you make Alice and do this. So I worked on that and one of those things was I Authentically connect with people. So I I remember an old boss saying to me like if you understand what the soldiers are doing, then you can win the war, if you understand what they have to go through each and every day. So I think they heard about me and it would have been on Paper. I would have seemed a little bit like this is an affair, obviously, but I'm still there, and not because nobody that was there isn't there anymore. There maybe was a bit of that, but that that was whatever, for whatever reason.

Alison: 21:06

But I mean I I understood I had some work to do, because in media, how do you know if you like someone? Oh, we've just met, now We're besties and that's it. You know, there's this whole idea that these relationships have formed over a really quick period of time is thrown in together a range of heightened emotions and There's a lot of people in the generation that you know a friend's on Facebook or Instagram and therefore, see it may, even showing my age, forget Facebook. Just you know, quick, easy kind of friendships. I I understood the brief in terms of what it took to try and get to know the people, and it was. It wasn't easy, i have to say wasn't easy.

Simon: 21:49

Yeah, because you, you came from a world that would possibly have seen threatening to them.

Alison: 21:55

Yeah, it, it, um, and also, i'd never worked in child protection and And the idea that and you know there was a number of CEOs in quick succession before me that had, in some way, shape or form, and there is, you know, getting across the idea that you are and I think we spoke about this that you are leading, you know, with a commercial head and an ethical family, and the purpose What I want to do is protect more kids than ever, like I'm my intent had to shine ahead of Anything else.

Simon: 22:32

So, yeah, I'm glad you raised that because I'd written down that phrase when we spoke. So a commercial head and a people heart is what you said, and I thought what a wonderful way to blend the two to bring that that commercial rigor To help a purpose driven organization achieve its purpose more effectively.

Alison: 22:53

Yeah, it was interesting the collection of Silo's that exist in. Well, they do in ours. I'm not going to suggest that they do in everybody else's, not for profit, but if you've got a therapeutic team or you've got this team or that team, people are funded differently. You, you know automatically you. There's a connection that needs to be made. So, bringing people together, understanding the strategy which is like if people just came to work and did their job, of course and the absence of KPIs or the absence of any measurement, like how do we measure our impact? How do we know we're doing a good job and what we can do better? The introduction of that was prickly but successful, yeah, great.

Simon: 23:42

Kirill, I'm going to start you here.

Kirralea: 23:44

I've got two questions. I've just written them down so I don't forget. The first one is what do you think was key When you said there'd been a few CEOs in quick succession, so you've joined an organisation that has a little bit of instability in that area? What do you think the key was for you coming in as the CEO in that environment, Or what was the biggest lesson you learned, I guess, coming in for that?

Alison: 24:11

Yeah, i had a bit of understanding, of course, on what had happened prior and wasn't working, which was interesting because a lot of people come in, there's a real and because I grew up in media, your bread, this ego is bred into you And if it's already naturally there, i mean no, it's full of people, mega egos, because you're amazing for all these weird things, you're amazing because you do this or you're amazing because you do that. So I had to and I have reasonably good self-awareness and that was a good thing. So I know that actively listening so asking a series of questions of people before I made any kind of statement about myself, which is difficult because we all want to. We think connection is someone comes and says I went to Bali. The first question is oh, i love Bali. Statement about yourself, like it's never kind of, what was the thing you liked the most about it? So I kind of said to everybody let's install this kind of weird rule where you've got to ask someone three questions about themselves before you make a statement. So I did weird stuff. So they were probably, like this girl's, very weird, but it was a bit of fun. I really listened to their issues and amplified the stuff that was already doing well and gave credit to the people who started that. Awesome.

Alison: 25:46

Yeah, also one of the things that was and I still struggle a little bit with this today is I don't struggle on my end, but it's hard a little bit to get the staff to do it, because you never had a chance in my previous professional career to ever lead with any vulnerability right. That just wasn't. You'd get eaten alive If I was to even show an ounce of it. It would be. We now have Brené Brown, whose vulnerability is strength, and we have this world where, like you're daring, dare greatly with your vulnerability and forget it works in all this shame management space. I mean, it was like Gordon Gekko, but a couple of decades after Gordon Gekko And it was Tostarone, wasn't there?

Alison: 26:43

A lot. Oh yeah, I can't. Well, I've got to converse. I think we've got about three people who identify as bloke, So like there you go. I've gone from one to the other And as healthy a mix of all as I can would be ideal, but it's just that's the way it is.

Alison: 27:00

But it's, you know, no vulnerability. So I've developed because someone has to be accountable, right, like if you're going to teach people accountability and responsibility and the difference, and because if the person at the top doesn't allow for that, then you'll never get it anywhere. People underneath will never say hey, listen, i'm just, I'm coming in hot with, i missed this, this is on me. And then being able to do that without being punished, because so I do a lot of that And at times I've done too much. I've actually sat in a meeting gone. Actually I'm kind of amultimately responsible because that's what the org chat looks like, but really I'm opening a door for someone else to come and join me on the boat here.

Simon: 27:49

Yeah, it is.

Alison: 27:51

But it feels like you're going. Good-bye, then.

Simon: 27:56

Thanks for taking that one for me, Alison.

Alison: 27:58

Yeah, i kind of and I won't say that that's, it's not a whitewash, that hasn't. That still happens. You know I still have to go come on Like, yeah good, thank you, because really you're great with me. It is your fault. I'm thinking. Well, you don't want to be defensive, right? Because in my previous life that's what it was. You know, let's deflect, let's defend. You know it's the greatest form of, you know, whatever, So you're not modelling that ownership and accountability.

Simon: 28:30

The challenge is now having that transferred. Other people are saying, oh, this is actually what we do and it's a safe thing to do, and maybe it's a matter of time. Maybe it's a matter of more proactive coaching. I don't know.

Alison: 28:43

I think that by and large it's pretty good. In certain cohorts it's really good. Like, at the end of the day it's like slow down, ok, slow down, you haven't like stopped. Like you know, i can't come back to work ever again because I did like you know, come on, that's all right. And then in others and it's interesting proximity plays a really big part. So when you have a remote workforce and we're all over Australia in different services, proximity really matters because when you're trying to lead and demonstrate vulnerability and encourage stuff, it's difficult. when it's all remote, it's a totally different skill set And the narrative becomes whatever they can see. So it's very like sliding doors. you know from this, not sliding doors, actually a movie where they do it from different perspectives. you know, like you know you kind of go wow, so that you know you can have this is how it is, this is how it always is. And you know there's nothing countering that narrative because you're not in the chat.

Simon: 29:56

Yeah, it's a reality of you is much less scary and much more engaging than the concept of you, true? You actually mentioned to me last week that you like yourself more now, which I thought was interesting as a result of the transition. I want to unpack that a bit with you more, but before we do, do you find it confronting when you realize that some people see you differently, when, perhaps because of proximity?

Alison: 30:29

Yeah, it's really. You know, the people that are near me see me like, really see me, and I think that that's part of the ego bit too. Everybody wants to be liked, you know it's. Don't ever read anyone's, you know, don't ever read things about yourself, because you're bound to hear something that someone doesn't like. And because I am of strong character, i will say that about myself. But sometimes people have shared correspondence because they think that, oh, that's going to be water off a duck's back, because Alison might have said I don't care, it's water off a duck's back. And then you see it and you're kind of like not necessarily like that, like that's pretty awful. Yeah, sometimes it's because this is the role where big decisions have to be made And some of those are tough and some of those is never about one individual. And that's an interesting shift, because in media you often like a good media centre won't necessarily promote all the athletes because they're crack coaches, right, they're really insular, they are like about their own success.

Alison: 31:52

Yeah, Not for profits different. One of the certainly again, i'm not speaking on behalf of the sector, but in the history of this or if someone did a job, then therefore, if you do that very well, you can then manage a team of people doing the same. Now it's a completely and entirely different skill set, absolutely, and part of that is what is best for the greater good. I have to pass everything through the filter of protecting children, and the organisation can't do that unless we make this change And there's certainly been, certainly since COVID, i mean that was we had this unprecedented way where services couldn't be delivered, some couldn't You've got. You find yourself having to have, like quite a quick succession, those uncomfortable conversations that everybody gets the chance to have a little bit of planning on. Yeah, or you know, and you never get used to it. I've never once walked into having to make someone redundant or finish their employment at any organisation and go, right, oh, let's go, yeah, like it's awful. And the minute it becomes easy, you need to kind of get yourself checked Because, no matter the mission, it's not a nice thing to do. So, yeah, i know my intent.

Alison: 33:14

I probably check in on myself and evaluate myself differently than how I did when I was working in media, because you mirror how everyone else evaluated you. So how you looked was an evaluation. That's really interesting. Yeah, how you, yeah, how many friends you had, or certainly how much money you know, yeah, exactly, and I'm not sure Like what's your type, what are you, what are you? Are you a GM or you know, like it was. The evaluation of me is totally different, that I look at myself differently than I did before And I quite, i quite like myself, like I'm okay. I didn't even consider that I'd be a likable kind of person before. I mean that sounds weird, but yeah.

Simon: 34:02

Wow, that's pretty profound, isn't it?

Alison: 34:05

Yeah, function of age too. I think It really does happen Your eyesight does deteriorate.

Kirralea: 34:11

Gerrilee, i'm telling you, i know I actually don't have my glasses on right now and I'm struggling, so I'm feeling yeah, You feel me.

Alison: 34:18

So we had a really big ball on the weekend. It was massive. We had like 500 people at Brisbane City of Orleans. I print every year I print out a speech and I methodically, you know, I try and get it all right And I look at the year before and then I take it. You know I leave in some salutations and I make it about this year, But last year's was in 26 font and this year's was in 32. So there was like 40 pages. That's bad.

Simon: 34:49

You know walking there with war on peace in about five years and people are going to think that you know, on each page we'll only have one word on it.

Alison: 34:58

I'm just going to say look, i'm just going to wing this Talk of dignitaries. Thanks, yeah, have a great time. I think that age just encourages reflection. I think with most people, i think you cross the halfway mark. I'm big of me to say I'll live to 100, but you're closer to one end than you are to the other And you start reflecting on things. And I'm certainly in a sector where you've got to consider so much more. I mean the idea of self care, like that just didn't exist.

Simon: 35:35

I mean, you know I was achieving your project, wasn't it?

Alison: 35:39

Correct, keeping your job. Congratulations, you will not be fired this week, so we've been joked about it.

Simon: 35:48

It's only funny because it's a bit true.

Alison: 35:51

It's true, it's totally true, and that's not a sore on the organization. That's just how it was. All media was like that. So, yes, a lot of reflection, because that's the environment too, you know, everyone's considering.

Kirralea: 36:05

I've got to consider a lot more things than I've ever had to do, so Alison, I'm looking at your leadership team on your website and you spoke a little bit about how much growth that you've had. Talk to us a little bit about what you think the greatest strength of your leadership team is.

Alison: 36:25

I think safely coming together. When I talked about having silos or operating independently, each of you know each leadership member over a department might have, you know, might be individually excelling. So I one of the things that is really important when you look at growth is not about replication or duplication, because there's a lot of people that do very similar and good work to break out. It's across Australia, in part as a part of a broader emit. We do just that, though, but so how do we grow through innovation and collaboration? So if you're going to outwardly be a collaborative organization, you have to start modeling that and doing that.

Alison: 37:17

So how does research intersect with our strategy and where we want to go in a therapeutic sense, we're going to build all these programs that other people are really delivering. Like how do we grow together? So I think having a collegiate cohort was really important. That was the first step, and that took a while, because trust you have to build trust, and that can't happen quickly. So I would think the greatest strength of that is absolutely the collective ability of the cohort. Like there are enormously qualified people on that team Mishing the next.

Kirralea: 37:56

It's really easy, like looking at the sections of the organization they come from. It will be very easy for silos to form, wouldn't it? Because it's polar opposite, like you've got someone from therapeutics, someone from finance, research. So the fact that you're able to nurture and grow that collaborative environment is such a asset to you all that are part of that executive.

Alison: 38:22

Yeah, we're very proud of that And we're missing one. There's one person missing there And that is, of course, community engagement and fundraising. So they're out. Trying that role is almost it's not that odd with therapeutic, but you've got someone who's out in this. We're going to partner with this person. Oh, that's not really like. You know, partners aren't swimming in the street and we just go fishing for them.

Alison: 38:48

It's really hard to find great because you know, ultimately you want them aligned to our vision and our mission. So that's a purely commercial undertaking It is. It's just purely commercial, almost selling off the work we do. So that's a natural misfit. Yeah, like you know, you're not going to have a commercial based heading our therapeutic and support services, having someone that has enough reciprocity and understanding. you know, getting everybody to go. it's the soldiers understanding what the soldiers do, what do they do every day in their job. And my job is to clear the path for everyone. That's all my job is Like. my job is to clear the path so everyone else can do their job. And that sounds easier, but it's. it's fought with a lot of pebbles, but you know.

Kirralea: 39:41

I love the way you describe that, but anyone that's been in a role like yours will understand It's definitely not easy. No, Yeah.

Alison: 39:49

It's interesting Yeah.

Simon: 39:51

You're that focus on collaboration, because Kirilee's question was very similar to the one I wanted to ask. Kirilee was talking about the internal team and you responded by talking about collaboration. I wanted to to lead you to. I know that you're speaking soon at a conference on collaboration. I am And I know that you know the sector is not always compare always collaborative. You're competing for a government dollar, but you also have a very strong passion about making it collaborative, which is a really interesting. A lot of organizations don't think of collaboration beyond their four walls, which and I love that. when we spoke last week, tell us a bit about that.

Alison: 40:36

I think it. It took me back the other day after we were speaking, because I remember years ago, when I was the GM of a radio station and one of the competitor radio stations, i got this call from their promotions team And this young girl rings me and says look, we're doing a bonding day And I would like I think you know we've got this list in this adventure hunt that we have to get, and could I borrow your promotions vehicle and turn up at our like? that would be the ultimate. And of course I said no, i might have quickly gotten off the phone. I said no, that's ridiculous, you know, such was the inbred distance that I. What would I do now? Of course, darling, come and get it. I'll meet you in the car park, you can have it. What a great thing. I hope you win, because I understand that her experience with us would have been with us, would have been marvelous and could have changed, you know, but I didn't get that. I didn't get that then right, like you, don't get that. That just comes as a function of reflection, etc.

Alison: 41:44

The way that sectors are often, or this sector is often there is still a bit of ego about it too. I've got to be fair in that people want to make a difference, but I also want to be known to be making that difference and heralded for making that difference and applauded and recognised and therefore, for some, the difference is made. That's the work, and all organisations have a little bit about that, a little bit. I think that what changed me was, if we go through the mission and vision of the work that Brave Hearts does, things aren't changing quick enough for me And I've got a real issue with brevity, like I, my mum, used to say, like it's alright, like just can't hucky, chill out, i'm like can't do it, need it now. That's what happened In this sector. This crime is still happening and the definition of insanity rang true for me in a sense that you know we don't have to be first and better. That was a paradigm shift, because to the point where I said no to some 18 year old taking the car because that you'd be taking something from us and therefore we are less or you know, and no, i'd probably get fired if I gave it to her anyway, because certainly if I wasn't feeling collaborative, no one above me was, even if they touted it right Like let's partner with this organisation and then have a 70, 30 split. Now that's not a collaboration, right, that's an merger.

Alison: 43:25

So I feel that the cause and the best way to gain traction is to just band together. So why? it doesn't make good business sense to replicate things other people are doing well either, just to add to your own kind of repertoire. I think you know I want one and one to be three. Now that's prickly still, and we've formed great collaborations. But part of our strategy is whose work can we promote? Because eventually that gets the job done. We can't do no one individual, no government, no person. So you can't do it alone. And the definition of insanity was true. Like, well, we've got all this mantra about, we are at that. You know, we used to call ourselves Australia's leading child. But well, who says that And you know from your history and media there's can't actually make unfounded claims, immeasurable claims like that, like it's like having the most proven weight loss drug in the world, like you can't do that, you know, and we're one of, and we're at the forefront, undoubtedly. But that doesn't make us leading.

Simon: 44:43

We're one of. Tell us about the village. You talked about the village the other day. Yeah, i love that analogy.

Alison: 44:49

So the village, when you think about you know it takes a village to raise a child and protect a child, it professionally and in in a sector sense, if that village is working against, like we're working against each other And in a way we kind of were, and that's suited, like you know, the government, you know they don't actually want us coming there on mass, right, yeah, it's, then that's a bit of a voice. So we're excited about coming on mass, by the way, but, like you actually get, i remember one particular minister who saw a number of our organisations together at an event and said I don't know whether to be applauding this or to be very, very frightened. And I said a bit from Colomay and a bit from Colombe, i think is in order, but you can't. I think it's about bringing to life all the stuff you say.

Alison: 45:46

You know, if you, and it's a leap of faith, my goodness, it's a leap of faith because some of these programs are kept alive because you know you've got IP, you've got the commercial aspect of it And it's not. I don't sit there and I do it more easily now, but you've still, i've still got that person, that cynic in the back of my head. Yeah, because I bet they take it and they run that themselves. Of course I mean, that's what happens, right, but you've just got to temper her a little bit Yeah With that ultimate outcome, isn't it?

Simon: 46:17

You talked about the mayor of the village the other day as well?

Alison: 46:20

Yeah, did I? Did I anoint myself Because that's who I'd want to be the mayor of the village? You can see that collaborative tone right there. I might have been referring to myself. I don't recall that, but I will use it. Yes, i well. maybe there's a collective mayor, but at the end of the day, someone's got to drive it because there's different, there's different levels of collaboration. What do I see as collaboration? I remember attending one meeting as a gumball machine. We're all in this together. I'd left the gates, i was off. We are going to completely and utterly empty out our wardrobe and show everyone our clothes right, except if I'm speaking that language and someone else isn't. I left feeling have I missed the brief?

Alison: 47:06

Because they didn't really you know it depends on who you're talking to, but there is a. The best way to do it is a collective council, i think, but there is always someone who's a little bit more. Come on, we can do this And you have to establish trust And that just takes time, so much time.

Simon: 47:29

And it's for them to see that you've got good intention. So I think that I really enjoy that shift in paradigm, that shift in perspective of we've got to be the first to do it, we've got to be the best to do it, to make sure somewhere it's done and it's done well. It's a real shift And I think obviously it's obvious how important it is to your sector. It's not easy to do. I don't think it applies to the corporate world.

Alison: 48:00

Oh, absolutely, like you know, if you think of great partnerships, like years ago, i remember an advertising campaign between Pepsi and Doritos, right, because what goes better with Doritos and Pepsi? So let's pull our resources and do an ad around who is, you know? and I've turned up to Braveheart's meetings and said, well, who's our Doritos? right? Like that, you know, who do we go hand in hand in and that model around the structure that, okay, we'll be here, we'll do the service, we'll put our hand out, we'll get the funding. You know how do you create innovation?

Alison: 48:35

And it's hard Yeah.

Simon: 48:39

There's a philosophy for our listeners to take away. I think Who's our Doritos? I'd love to have leadership groups sitting down and someone saying hey, i listened to this podcast and I need to ask you who's our Doritos.

Alison: 48:55

Simon the benefit for you is that I'm not on the board or work for Doritos or Pepsi, so I've just said that to you, so you can have it Like. I don't have any copyright claim on that. I saw the ad. You've seen the ad. Now, That's it.

Simon: 49:10

It's a good question She's talking to Filiate. Lincoln makes some money for Braveheart's out of it somewhere. Yeah, How about that?

Alison: 49:16

How about that? But we see more and more of that collaboration in the corporate world. Uber will do an ad with someone else. You know a water company And you see it's just different too, like people they've zoned out to that. You know traditional. I know I'm talking about advertising, but there's so many that's been innovated, and why shouldn't our sector?

Simon: 49:39

Yeah, and there's so many ways we can do it. We're big fans of not asking the question. Can we do that? We ask the question. How can you do that? How can we?

Alison: 49:48

do that.

Simon: 49:48

What does that look like if we do that? So, alison, it's been a wonderful conversation. It's no. sometimes you interview someone and all you need to do is ask a couple of, so just a couple of words, and they take it and run with it, and it's been very interesting.

Alison: 50:06

I'm a talker, sorry about that. Yep.

Simon: 50:09

I'm a talker, but you're also a listener, i think, and I think that's a very wonderful combination. Kierri Lee, do you have any final questions?

Kirralea: 50:16

I don't have any questions. It's been really great talking. I can't wait to get this episode out to our listeners.

Simon: 50:21

It's been a lot of fun So yeah, awesome.

Alison: 50:23

Thank you so much. I'm going on a week's holiday as a Friday and I can't freaking wait, so I'm so excited that we were able to do this.

Simon: 50:31

I hope you come into your spiritual home in Tasmania, but I suspect you're going somewhere warm.

Alison: 50:36

And next time I'm in Tassie I'll shut up and we can catch up. That's great. Thank you so much.

Simon: 50:41

Good to meet you.

Kirralea: 50:42

Kierri, yeah, good to meet you too, and I'm going to call it now. I think we have to have Alison back for a later episode, because I just think that you've got so much to share.

Simon: 50:50

She's got a lot there. Thanks, Alison.

Alison: 50:52

Awesome. See you guys, thank you.

Simon: 51:04

Thank you. So, Kierri Lee, I hope the interview lived up to the promise I made in the introduction. That's great.

Kirralea: 51:13

What a great decision they made the day they made Alison's CEO. She's fantastic.

Simon: 51:18

She's a live wire, isn't she? Lots of energy. What were the biggest things that really struck you about that interview?

Kirralea: 51:27

I really liked when Alison spoke about the importance of authentically connecting with people when she went into the organisation And I think that that is a lesson that doesn't matter if you're going in as a CEO or you're going in somewhere within the organisational structure. I think the awareness she had that on paper she wasn't the greatest fit for the role when she made that comment from where she'd come from and she knew she had some work to do. But to know that she needed to lead with that authenticity of connecting with the people, I think how can you not win people over when you lead?

Kirralea: 52:06

like that, like when people know that who they're seeing and what they're getting is the true person, that's always going to be a winning strategy.

Simon: 52:15

Yeah, i loved it very closely related to that. I think a lot of us hide behind facades. I think all of us hide behind some facades. It's just how big and how many of them we've gotten, how vigorously we cling to them.

Simon: 52:32

And I think when I first met Allison and knew of Allison she was, there was a facade for Allison.

Simon: 52:41

She lived a persona that fitted the industry she was in.

Simon: 52:48

I remember and it's actually another guest who's been on this podcast talking about asking Allison to take up a specific role because he needed someone who could just cut through and get it done and all of that sort of stuff He knew that she would be the tough one that went in there and dealt with a situation that was not working and that others hadn't made effective And yet she's evolved into.

Simon: 53:18

She said something that really struck me. It was almost so admirable and a bit tragical at once that she didn't ever consider that she'd be a likable person. And I think that's what a journey as a leader to come out from behind that facade, that tough persona that she definitely had And where she probably didn't see herself as someone that others would find likable to this really natural, vulnerable human being that we talked with and that was so easy to connect with. I'll bet there's people that worked with Allison years ago that will listen to that interview and go, wow, that is not the human being that I remembered, to the surprise to know that that person was always there, because she hasn't made that person, she's just let that person emerge.

Kirralea: 54:18

Yeah, and having worked in an industry different to Allison, but one that also required you to have a certain persona and not show weakness and show up with that facade every day, it is really nice once you come into an organisation or a change of field where you know you can lead with that vulnerability and lead with that authenticity and you don't have to be defensive all the time, which is, i think, a big change for her and one that she touched on in the interview as well.

Simon: 54:52

And I think that allows her something that I really struck me and that I'm going to be voting for as the title of the episode. So, listeners, you'll know when you look at the title of the episode whether I won or not. But I think that balance, that facade and the genuine human being that sits behind it, allowed her to have that mentality about a commercial head with a people heart, and I love that, because you can't go into a not for profit, you can't go into any organisation without taking a somewhat commercial head, but it doesn't mean you've got to let go of the people heart. And that's the wonderful balance that she's found the way to make both those things fly at the same time.

Kirralea: 55:47

I also think it's when we talk about leading authentically and leading in a vulnerable way, some people say you know how is that And when she when Alison spoke about actively listening and that she encouraged people to ask three questions before you made a statement. How simple that is, but how effective. and Alison said herself it was a bit of a joke at the time like you know, have to ask three questions for a statement, but it created that culture of actively listening and hearing what people had to say.

Simon: 56:17

And so often people tell us they're great intentions And as coaches, what we say to them is that's nice, that's a nice intention, but how will you do that? Well, she's gone beyond the great intention and come up with a really specific strategy that she can hold herself accountable to. She can, in the moment, say this is actually how I'm going to deliver on that intention.

Kirralea: 56:39

My last I had.

Simon: 56:41

Well, i'm glad you say your last, because I was about to use some more words from from the interview from Alison. Don't bore us, get to the chorus.

Kirralea: 56:53

My last one was when she spoke about her leadership team and the strength within her leadership team, and she spoke about how there can often be a collection of silos when it comes to a leadership team, because everyone is there representing different areas of the business, different skill sets, and often in their case, they're funded the different sections of the leadership group are funded very differently, and so I think when she spoke about the open door for accountability and vulnerability and she finds that creating a space for them to safely come together, i lost. I've lost track of the amount of organisations we've worked with, when one of the biggest issues leadership teams have is not everyone feels safe when they come together And then it is in a safe environment for everybody, and I think that, because that is at the core of what she wants to create with that leadership team, it's no wonder that they are achieving what they're achieving and just going from strength to strength.

Simon: 58:00

And what a what an important role they play.

Kirralea: 58:03

So And not only that credit where credit's due, because it's it's hard to come when you're representing your own department. It's hard to take that hat off and look through eyes of what is going to be beneficial for the greater good, because at times that's a detriment to yourself and your team.

Kirralea: 58:21

So for them to be able to come in that group and safely know we're all going to take our own hats off. We're not in it for our individual teams or individual divisions. We're here to make, to create worlds where kids are safe and we want to save as many kids as we can, which were the words that Alison used. You know, for that to be their driving force is fantastic for a leadership team to be able to make that shift.

Simon: 58:47

And that's all part of being purpose driven, isn't it? And she extended that to the collaboration with other organisations. It doesn't matter whether we do it, as long as someone does it. So if there's some, if there's an initiative that could make a difference, the ego says we've got to be the ones doing this, we've got to be the best and the greatest and the first and all that sort of stuff. But ultimately, that collaborative mindset of it actually doesn't matter as long as someone is doing it, because then we're delivered, then the service that's necessary is being delivered.

Kirralea: 59:20

I won't bore you anymore My chorus.

Simon: 59:22

The song it's yours, Yeah, I was going to say, was that the chorus? because you sang it beautifully. Now, before we log off, i just want to point our listeners to our website. We, in the spirit of brevity, we have got a really exciting new initiative which we've called Plenty in 20 and their short, sharp, 20 minute webinars packed full of great information for leaders on specific topics. You can find the latest Plenty in 20 topics, along with all the other events we offer on our website under solutions and then public workshops and events, and please go there and check those out and see if there's something we're running that helps you dive deeper into the world we explore in the podcast.

Kirralea: 1:00:13

And if you're listening from the Northern Territory, you have some really exciting workshops coming to Darwin and Catherine, so please jump on and check those out.

Simon: 1:00:20

Absolutely, and if you're listening in Hawaii would really like to come there because it's the middle of winter in Australia at the moment, so we're happy to run anything you like there.

Kirralea: 1:00:35

Okay, so I think we should wrap this up, and I'll see you soon.

Simon: 1:00:39

On the other side, stay authentic.