The Quiet Ones in the Room - Leadership & Workplace Culture with Sarah Horton

Sarah Horton, a senior leader at Mars, is an inspiring leader, a culture shaper, and a natural story teller. Her leadership journey has spanned continents, cultures, and challenges. Sarah shares insightful leadership lessons and her reflections on the dynamics of workplace culture in a riveting conversation that fosters learning and sparks self-reflection. 

Sarah's enchanting experiences from training in Switzerland to leading a team in Korea, and her current role at Mars, all contribute to the rich tapestry of her leadership journey. Her story underscores the value of investing in training, embracing the challenges of leadership, and the critical role of adaptability in varying cultural environments. We discuss the importance of including quiet voices in decision-making, creating a psychologically safe environment, and the family-like culture within Mars Petcare. 

We also highlight how understanding the intricate data behind an organisation's culture can paint a comprehensive picture of the work environment. And for those eager to further hone their leadership skills, we chat about Real Learning's smorgasbord of events and programs that promise intellectual stimulation and growth. Join us in this enriching journey that explores leadership, workplace culture, and so much more!

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Before we get into today's episode, we want to acknowledge the privilege of living and working on Aboriginal land and we pay our respects to the elders, past, present and emerging. Hello listeners, and welcome to another episode of Authenticity Transforming Workplace Culture. I'd like to welcome my co-host, simon Tyson, who's with us today. Hello, carol E. How are you? How?

Speaker 2: 0:31

are you? I'm really good. I'm really good. I'm having a wonderful week. This week I've been working with one of our clients. We did a big culture survey for them and I spent a lot of the last fortnight unpacking the information. But this week's been super exciting because I've actually been travelling around their various sites and presenting the results to the team. It's always great just to see the look on people's faces as they start to understand their culture and see what's great about it and see what needs to be worked on. I really love the engagement that drives because all of a sudden, culture goes from being something that people are a bit passive about it's something over there to something that they understand and they can see their bits of and all that sort of stuff. So I'm having a wonderful week. And it's only Thursday. The long answer to it was a simple question, wasn't it?

Speaker 1: 1:36

I was just going to say. Anyone that knows us loves knows how much we love working in the organisational culture space, but these types of projects are absolutely what sets your soul on fire, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 1:48

I am a culture nerd. I love it. I love I just love the understanding, what sits beneath it. It's something that looks so complex for people but really it's quite understandable once you get in there amongst it. And you know I'm a big picture person. I love thinking about the big picture. But even for a big picture person, I love diving into the detailed data that sits beneath an understanding of workplace culture. There's just something here and I guess for me it is the big picture emerges by looking at that data and seeing the patterns.

Speaker 1: 2:28

You do have a gift, simon, for taking the data that we are given when we run one of these projects and putting it into words that really make sense to the organisations, and I love when I am able to be there when you're presenting the data, because you just see everyone start to nod and go yeah, that's exactly what happens here, so this is definitely something that I know you're very passionate about, but I think you are very good at projects.

Speaker 2: 2:56

And there's just nothing like I think, for someone sitting there. They're in an organisation and someone starts to show them things that, in their minds, they go huh, this is real. For me, this is what it's like, and now I'm understanding what it is, but, really importantly, I'm understanding what we could do about it to make this different. If it's not optimal and culture is never optimal there's always work to do. So anyway, that was do you want to go back to? How are you Simon?

Speaker 1: 3:32

I knew, as soon as you started talking about the project that you'd been working on, that we were going to get the long version.

Speaker 2: 3:39

Yeah, it wasn't really the long version. I only have one version. That implies there's a short version out there somewhere and there's not. Tell us about our guest today, kira Lee, we have already recorded this interview and it's a little longer than some of the others, but it's so good we don't want to cut anything out. So we agreed we would keep the introduction short, so I've already blown that Over to you to talk about our guest.

Speaker 1: 4:07

Our guest today is someone that I met a little bit over a year and a half ago, and I actually met her in my son's cricket club. Her name is Sarah Horton, and, as I had gotten to know Sarah a little bit better, I have seen what makes her tick. I've recently joined the committee, I'm holding an executive role at the cricket club, and so I've been working with Sarah a lot closer, and there's certain things that she says and certain things that she does that make me go gee. There's more to her in a leadership role that I really want to have a discussion with, and so I said to Simon oh, there's a person that I'm on the cricket committee with that I'd really like to have a chat with on the podcast, and so Sarah is very involved in the cricket, but she works for a global company, mars, and, as you will hear, it's her role now, but also roles previous to her working with Mars have taken her all around the world Great story In her leadership journey.

Speaker 2: 5:12

Right, and she's a story teller too, she is.

Speaker 1: 5:17

I often joke and say that we're spirit animals because we're very similar in a lot of ways, so I'm really excited to share this with our listeners.

Speaker 2: 5:23

Let's hit it.

Speaker 1: 5:35

Welcome, sarah, thanks.

Speaker 3: 5:36

Kira Lee. Hope you're doing well today.

Speaker 1: 5:39

I am. We might start off today with a big picture of your leadership journey and where it's taking you all across the globe.

Speaker 3: 5:47

Yeah, okay, so my leadership journey is an interesting one actually. So I started, I started chemistry at university and really always thought I'd be a deep technical scientist kind of person, and I realized pretty quickly that that really wasn't one what interested me or too much strength. So I moved into people leadership quite early in my career. I think I was probably mid to late 20s when I took on my first leadership role, and that was in Melbourne in Australia. And then I started off with just a very small team, a couple of associates, and my second proper leadership role was actually in Asia, where I was leading a multicultural team in the quality systems area. So I was leading a team of associates, primarily based and from Malaysia. And then I moved into a rolling career with a stopover in Switzerland, but my role in Korea was again leading a bigger team.

Speaker 2: 6:56

I think that was naturally on the way from Switzerland's, naturally in the middle of it's, a natural stopover from Asia to Korea.

Speaker 3: 7:05

Well, I went to Switzerland for a little bit of training to set me up for success in my role in Korea. Yes, it was a nice little.

Speaker 3: 7:13

I think I had six months there just learning a little bit more about the technology that I was going to be installing when I got to Korea. But it was actually also a central head of engineering, because I was with Philip Morris at the time and that's where our engineering head was. So I went there for training in primarily customer consumer care, but I spent a lot of time in the facility over there learning the equipment as well, but I really didn't have any responsibilities, it was just training and it was really actually fun A lot of basically six months of self directed learning in whatever took my fancy, and it was fantastic. And then I went to Korea.

Speaker 2: 7:55

That's a massive investment in training. How many companies actually invest six months into someone? That's amazing.

Speaker 3: 8:04

Yeah, it was pretty.

Speaker 2: 8:06

Normally we'd have to do a week of induction.

Speaker 3: 8:08

Yeah, I was really lucky and I think it was one where we were going to be the first to implement the technology, so that was important. But I think the other was that I hadn't done very much with consumer care at that point, so I got to spend some time there. But also I was going to a factory that had different technology to the factory I had come from, so I got to look, see all that technology. But it was a relationship company too, so it was network building as well. So, yeah, it was pretty. I never thought of it like that. Actually, it's a really great point, and it was. I learned a lot, but I also had a lot of fun. Switzerland's a pretty nice place to have to go to for six months of training.

Speaker 2: 8:49

Pretty good. That sounds like K. If you've got to go somewhere, that would be where I'd choose to go.

Speaker 3: 8:56

Yes, it was nice. So then I moved to Korea and I was the quality manager of our plant in Korea, which was a really interesting experience from a leadership perspective. So I had a team there, I think, of about 15 to 20 people who were all Korean, with various levels of English. They could all speak some English, but the level of their English and you know, especially spoken English so quite good in written English, but spoken English was more of a challenge. And then, from a personal perspective, there were only two other expats in that factory, so myself, my boss, who was Dutch, and my colleague who was from Turkey.

Speaker 3: 9:41

So I got thrown in the deep end from a leadership perspective. It was my first time leading as a quality manager in a plant and I think I said to you all when I look back on my time now I really feel a bit sorry for those people because I'm not sure I was the best leader for them. I feel like I've learned a lot since then and I would probably do a lot of things differently, but they were very forgiving and you know we had a lot of fun together. Tell us about some of those, sarah.

Speaker 2: 10:12

What might you do differently, like when you look back as an experienced leader on that new and emerging leader. What would you do differently?

Speaker 3: 10:22

I probably look back on one thing that happened while I was there in particular. So we had an issue where one of the people who worked for me had been running a trial and after the trial we got a consumer complaint for mixed product and basically it came back to after he'd done his trial. He hadn't cleared the line properly and I was told by my boss to give him a written warning and I didn't agree. I didn't agree at the time, I still don't agree and I just don't think I fought hard enough for him. But I also don't think I spent enough time with him to understand the problem. I think he told me what happened. I told my boss what happened. I think I was very much still finding my feet as to what my job as a line manager was, and I think my job as a line manager now and as a leader of people is. I always tell my team I run interference for you. My job is to give you the freedom to do what you need to do within particular constraints, with my support and also because we're a big company. We have a lot of there's a lot of weight above us. But you know I run the interference for those guys and I handle that and you handle this, and then I only filter through what needs to get to you, and I don't think I did that well at that time of my career. I think I was just almost an open pipe, so what came down from the top, I just shoot straight down, and I would not do that now. It may still as my boss there was quite tough he may still have said you know, well, bad luck, you're doing it, but I would give a much bigger fight now and in the end that that person actually left the business and I think I don't think it was all because of this, but I think it had a big, a big part in. You know, I just think he lost trust in me and I would definitely not do that now. I think the other piece that I focus a lot more on now is really building succession and basically putting myself out of a job, something I'm really passionate about, so building a very strong network.

Speaker 3: 12:38

I always tell my team I'm really lazy, I don't do anything, and they all laugh at me and I, you know, I go to them. I'm like, oh, I've got a development opportunity for you and they all say what don't you want to do now. They also come back and say you know, you were one of the best line managers for me because you pushed me to do things that I wouldn't normally get the opportunity for. And I've had lots of people who have worked for me who say you gave me so much opportunity I didn't even realize. So you know, it's never really been about me and I laugh and I tell people I'm lazy, but I'm not lazy.

Speaker 3: 13:18

I have just been fortunate in my career that people have always given me opportunity and I absolutely pay it forward. So you know, if we have to do a presentation leadership I don't get someone to prepare the deck and then I go and present it. I bring the person in who prepared the deck and I'm sitting right there. You know I'll answer all the really nasty, hard questions, but it gives them an opportunity because that's what people did for me and I didn't do that very well early in my career. I would be the one right, I'm the leader, I need to talk. And now I'm more well, I'm the leader. I shouldn't talk, yeah, unless you're getting hammered in which way? Great, what a great sportsman perspective.

Speaker 3: 13:58

Yeah, and I think someone once asked me what, what's my vision of a great leader? And my perspective of a great leader has changed a lot. But I think, if you ask me what I think a great leader is, a great leader is someone who puts you up on a tightrope, tells you you can do it, says you've got this off, you go, go. But they're underneath you the whole way with a net so they give you the confidence you can do hard things. Yeah, they give you the belief you can do it, but they're there if you fall. And if you fall, they go. All right, I've got your net, we're good, it wasn't a big deal, let's go again. And that's sort of what I try to do and I've been really lucky. I have Really probably I've never had a really bad line manager. I've had absent line managers, but I've never had a bad one, and every single one of them I learned something from Including the absent one, because I learned I didn't like that, like I think, yeah, perception that strong people don't need strong Leadership, and I actually think it's the opposite. I think strong people need really strong leaders to say stop. So yeah, it's been quite the journey.

Speaker 3: 15:02

So I look at my time in career. I was. I was a baby, I was playing, I was messing around. I don't think I did too bad a job, because most of those people are still in touch with me, um, but I look back now and I think, oh gosh, I'd love to go back in now to that factory and have my time over, because it'd be a very different place. But, but I still left a success that we developed, you know, in situ, and you know the factory continued to perform. We were number one for quality in the globe and they continued that after I left. So that was good, and so then I left there and you're probably back.

Speaker 2: 15:40

You'll probably look back at yourself today, in five years, and say, oh gosh, I wish I'd done. You know, I think that's the. I think the the strength of great leaders is they always look back at former iterations of themselves.

Speaker 3: 15:56

I'm seeing and I think that Absolutely. I mean, I think that, yeah, I mean I'm really passionate about lifelong learning, always have been, because I get bored easily, I have very short attention span, so I'm always looking for new and interesting. I think the self-reflection piece is probably the biggest change in my entire career and I would say Really leaning into self-reflection, probably when I came home, which was about six years ago, where I really I sort of you know we may maybe I'll talk about my, my foray into the US and then back home and then I'll come back to that, because it was kind of a real Pause. Have a think, what are we doing here? So, anyway, I left career, we went to, well, I went to the US, which is where my now husband is, and that's why I went to the US and and I moved to a different company and I lived in the south in the US and it was a very patriarchal society which I really wasn't used to. I went to a company where I had no network, which I also wasn't used to, and I went, I took a step back, so I went back into an engineer role. So I was out on the floor a lot, which I love. I love being out on the floor in the factory, with where stuff gets done. It's when you meet all the I always say this way you meet all the real people. It's they actually Do the stuff that makes the product, that makes the money. Um, but it was just a.

Speaker 3: 17:36

You know, I had a lot of experience going in there and really from the beginning I've I struggled to find my voice and and to have people listen to me, and I found that really hard. I also, I think I told you I made an assumption when I went to the US that I knew what the US called me to the US, that I knew what the US culture was, um, and actually I just assumed it was very similar to Australia and it's nothing like Australia, um, so I think probably for the first 18 months I was fighting with an idea in my head of what it should be like versus what it was actually like, and I, I I just found that I found it really hierarchical, which I wasn't used to, um. I found it very formal, which I wasn't used to. I found people didn't like it when you disagreed with them in meetings, which I wasn't used to Like. It was a big adjustment in ways of working Um. And then just leadership styles, like I certainly found people who you know were really good leaders and I was fortunate I had really good leaders there, um, but it was finding those good leaders, um, rather than they were just there, and it was a very different culture. Um, the business culture was very different. Um, I mean, I was just fortunate I.

Speaker 3: 18:50

I got multiple jobs. I picked up line management, I think probably a couple of years into the piece, just a small team Again, I was a better line manager to them than I was. My team in Korea, um, but it was a totally different team. So my team in Korea were all pretty young. You know probably my age, maybe within plus or minus five years of me when I managed my team in the US, all of them were older than me, um, by 10 years or more, which was really interesting. I'd never had that before, um, and Did that bring challenges?

Speaker 3: 19:28

I actually found that to be okay because I'm the youngest of eight children. I have lots of older brothers and sisters, so I actually found that okay because I'd just go to them and say, okay, um, um, you probably know more about this. For me, this is the problem We've got. This is what I'm thinking. What do you think? And as I say that sentence to you, I just think I would never say that now, but I know that's what I said then. So now I would go to them and say I've got this problem, what do you reckon? I wouldn't tell them what I thought, because they know the answer.

Speaker 3: 20:01

Um, and I think that's an evolution, right, I've gone from, I think, when you're younger. You think if you're the leader, you should have all the answers. And then you, it's it's sort of like this I learned about this five steps to empowerment, right. So there's, you know, utl, I do, and the, the various levels. But you know, I think, as a line manager, initially I thought I had to tell everyone what to do, and then I got to the stage of Well, I mean to help people what I think and then ask for their opinion. To now I'm like, well, what do you think we should do? And then, if no one's got any ideas, I might give my opinion. But I'm always last and sometimes I don't speak at all because they've got heaps better ideas than me. And I think, like that's the journey of my leadership and my career. To be really honest. Um, I think it's just me realizing that actually really strong leadership is quiet and it's a lot more behind the scenes and it's about letting your team come forward, and I've never really thought about it until I should be writing this down. You're recording it. This is good. That that's kind of what what I've learned. I've. I've just learned that leadership is actually not necessarily the one who's out there, you know, out the front, and I think, what was I going to come back to? Something about Australia. So so then I left.

Speaker 3: 21:27

I was in the US for eight years. I had multiple jobs, um, from small teams. I think they were all pretty small teams. I think the biggest team I had was probably five people. But I really wanted to come home. I was homestick.

Speaker 3: 21:40

So we decided to move back to Australia and it was actually a really hard move, um, probably the hardest one I've done, because all the other moves that I'd done in my career I was single, so I was like I don't care if it doesn't work out, it doesn't matter, it doesn't impact anybody. But moving back to Australia was really difficult because really the only person who wanted to move was me. The kids were happy, the kids were settled. My husband was happy, he was home, but I was really unhappy and I didn't want my kids to grow up in the environment I was working in. I just didn't. That was not what I wanted for them or for my family. So we decided to move home.

Speaker 3: 22:19

We and we moved home for lots of reasons. One was the environment, um, and the culture. One was lifestyle. I mean, we, we, just I we were working long hours, you know, you were just going to work. It's really all you did Monday and Friday, just went to work in the weekends. You're really tired, there was no time for any fun and that was not what we wanted. So, you know, I was lucky. I found a great role at Mars in my hometown, which is even better, um, and we moved back here.

Speaker 3: 22:49

But it was, when I say it was, a moment of reflection. It was really a time where I sort of stopped and paused and thought about what really matters to me, um, and up until that point, career was really important to me. I think you know you get caught up in. I've got to do the next best thing and I've got to be the best, and I really the best at everything I do, and I've always got to be on top. And when I came home I was like well, I'm pretty good at what I do. I'm doing okay. Do I need to be the best? I don't think so. I think I need to be the best. I just want to enjoy it. I want to be challenged, but I don't have to be the best.

Speaker 2: 23:29

Well, that's comparing yourself to you, isn't it, rather than comparing yourself to others.

Speaker 3: 23:35

Yeah, but it's not even. I just want to be happy, and that was. I think that was the switch. I moved from being wanting to be the best to just wanting to be happy Happy in what I was doing and happy in how I was doing it, happy in, you know, all of the things that I wasn't enjoying about the US. I sort of wanted to come home, and when I was coming into a leadership role I knew that.

Speaker 3: 24:01

So I came in leading a team of 12 people, but I didn't want to create the environment that I'd just left, and you know they always say people leave. They don't leave jobs, they leave leaders. I left a company of leaders, to be honest. So anyway, we came back and it was a little bit of a fresh, a fresh start, a fresh sort of perspective. And I walked in and had a team of, I think, 12 people and I think within two or three months of me starting, half of the team moved into new roles. Now they weren't leaving me because pretty much all of them had the jobs. When I got back, they all got promoted within the business. So I had an opportunity to build my team half of it myself which was that's quite a gift, because sometimes you get gifted a team and it's not always what you want.

Speaker 3: 24:57

So I really I called it my listening tour when I first started and I can still remember probably my first conversation with my line manager and I said to her I said I've got to be really careful and she said why? I said because I feel like I know this company, because it felt like Philip Morris, which was the company I worked for prior to the US. I felt like I knew the culture, I knew the norms, I knew the behaviors. It wasn't hierarchical. You were free to challenge anybody at any time for anything. People listened. You weren't judged by your gender, which is what I had experienced in the US, and you weren't judged by your job level.

Speaker 3: 25:38

I'm not sure if you're familiar with Mars, but at Mars nobody has an office. Everybody sits at a desk and the desk is the exact same size, the exact same shape. Everyone has three drawers and I don't think right now we even have a signed desk. So there's this and all of our meeting rooms last, so you can see in, and they have this real belief system in transparency and equality. Nobody has designated parking. So I loved all of that, like I walked in and asked to say, yeah, this is right, I like this. I did miss my front row park that I used to have, though that was quite good, especially when it was raining, but the rest of it I really liked. So, yeah, walking into Mars was. It was like this big sigh. You don't realize how challenged you are with an environment until you get into the one that you should be in. And I got to Mars and I just went yeah, I'm home.

Speaker 3: 26:40

And Mars is. It has all these values. It has the associate principle. We have our five principles that we really do live and breathe every day. So the five principles are quality, responsibility, mutuality, efficiency and freedom. We use them in most of the decision-making processes, if not all. They guide what we do from a financial perspective, from a people perspective. They guide, you know, how we respond to crises and they're just really hard of the fabric of what we do. I work in the pet care division and now our motto is a better world for pets. So you know I work in the quality department and often when we're trying to make decisions about product, you know we'll ask the question is this gonna make a world for pets? And you know, it's just. It's so easy when you have such a strong fabric that supports everything that we do.

Speaker 3: 27:41

And I just felt, when I came to Mars, I was like, okay, this is something I can stand by because it aligns with my values.

Speaker 3: 27:52

I don't feel like I go to work and have to be someone.

Speaker 3: 27:55

I'm not. This is who I am. I go to work and I'm me. You know, if I'm having a bad day and yes, I was having a really bad day and I lost it at work and someone came up to me and said Sarah, do you wanna come and get coffee? And I was like no, I'm done now. And they went okay, cool, and you know it's okay. Like you know, I think I can be me. I don't have to pretend. You know, I can go into the leadership team and you know, sit there and talk to them like I would talk to someone in a factory. I don't have to go in and say well, yeah, my name's Sarah Horton and I'm going to talk to you about quality. I can go in and I can be me, and I think that's something we really value is authenticity and I fit Mars. I really like it. I feel like it's home and I think the culture that we have built is something really special and it's a family business and it feels like a family.

Speaker 1: 28:52

How do you think that happens? Because most workplaces have their values, have their mission, and some workplaces are like yours and they live and breathe them. Others, you ask people what their values and mission are and people can't tell you. So how do you? What does Mars do so? Well, that embeds the values right through the organization so that everybody feels them and everybody and everybody makes a choice to live them. How do you think they do that?

Speaker 3: 29:23

So Mars is a storytelling culture and company, which is one of our most amazing strengths. Also one of the frustrations from a quality perspective, because we don't tend to document things. But we're really intentional about storytelling and I think I mentioned I had a team meeting with my team today, so my direct reports and we have five minutes every meeting where we share a story about the five principles in action. So who'd like to share a story from the last week? Like in the last week, how have you seen the five principles come to light and some of those stories talk about all five principles in one. Some of those stories might focus on just one principle, but we're intentional about it. We're really intentional about it. It's on, like, if you looked at my team, the outlook agenda number one, five principles story it's the first thing we do. So we ground ourselves in that in our meetings and we are intentional. They're visible, like you walk into every meeting room at Mars. On my wall in my office they're written down, they're right there. So if you're sitting in a meeting room, sometimes you're sitting and you're thinking what am I going to do here? And you sort of turn around and they're there and you're like, ok, and you read them and you go OK, all right, I'm good. They are so embedded into our language that they just become part of what you do Now.

Speaker 3: 31:01

When I first joined Mars, I actually found it really challenging to take it on, because I wasn't you know, I just started at Mars Like there's a lot of people who've only ever worked at Mars and they live and breathe it every day. But as a new associate, I was a bit uncomfortable and I said to someone I actually took one of the I took my life manager. I said how do I talk about five principles in a way that doesn't seem like I'm just putting it on? And she said well, you don't like read the principle and then share a story where you've seen it? And she said the more you talk about it, the more it become really natural to you.

Speaker 3: 31:38

And she said you don't have to do everything all at once, choose one. Like she actually said, have you got a favorite principle? And I do. My favorite principle is mutuality, which is, you know, a mutual benefit is a shared benefit and shared benefits will endure. I'm just reading it. The writing's too small, but you know so when we make decisions, mutuality is such a good one because I love it right. It's about compromise. You know, if we can have mutuality and what we do, I just I really like that and it's always spoken to me. She said, ok, so if that's the one you really tap into, use it.

Speaker 2: 32:19

What does it look like? Because it was interesting, as you, first of all, I love that you, that Mars hasn't felt the need to put these into some sort of acronym, because it sort of makes quirk for something like that. So, rather than you know, you've picked authentic, authentic principles, rather than shoehorning them, these are the real, or an authentic principles for you, and I was just looking at them, I wrote them down, as you said them, and there were two that I put nastress next to because I want to ask you about them, and one that was mutuality. So I'm really glad it's your favorite, it's my favorite. Tell our listeners what that looks like in action.

Speaker 3: 33:01

Now it can look like lots and lots of different things. So I mean, first of all, I'd encourage your listeners to go and Google Mars five principles. There are on YouTube some fabulous videos on every principle individually and in typical Mars style. They have a video of an associate at Mars, usually explaining an example of the five principle they're talking about in action. And it's a story, a real story. So that would be my first protocol. But mutuality in action would mean. So, let's say, I'm trying to think of an example that I can share Just bear with me or maybe a personal example.

Speaker 3: 33:51

I used to be the Q and F? S, the quality and safety director for Asia Pacific, and that region was split into two regions. So my job was split into two roles, and those roles were smaller than the one that I was in. So my line manager at the time came to me and he said look, your role no longer exists in the business. So unfortunately, you don't have a role anymore. He said but you bring value to the business. We're going to work with you to try and find a different position for you. So he said but that position that we come up with has to be mutual. Like he said, we're not going to create a position for you. That's not a position we need, so you know it has to.

Speaker 3: 34:40

So when we talk about mutuality, yes, they're going to look after me as a person if they could, but it had to benefit the business. So you know, if we're looking at people decisions, we'll say, right, what's best for the person, but what's best for the business, because you have to have both. So mutuality when it comes to people decisions is okay, we're going to look after the people, but it has to make business sense to. So that would be an example of mutuality in practice. So if you think about relationships between, you know, our sales group and our customers, we look for mutual solutions. So you know we believe that if our key customers are succeeding, we also succeed. So that's why we believe in, you know, trying to get to mutual agreements. So the Norris perfect. Yeah, we do believe in growing together, not growing at the expense of someone else. So that's what you'd rather be would look like in person.

Speaker 2: 35:38

It's very much like our why, Kiralee. That our why is because people deserve great workplaces and workplaces deserve great people Absolutely, and that's that mutuality.

Speaker 3: 35:47

Yeah, you had a perfect example, you didn't need mine. And we see the other one that you had to start against. Was it freedom? Exactly yes. So I'll read you the freedom principle. So freedom lets us shape our future. Performance allows us to remain free. So if you think about Mars and I'll talk about pet care, in pet care we have more than 60 factories and probably more than that markets, but they operate as individual business units.

Speaker 3: 36:25

Mars believes in the entrepreneurial spirit and our general managers own their businesses. So the general manager of Australia owns the Australian business, that's, you know, his business. The New Zealand general manager, she owns her New Zealand business. So they have the freedom to do what they want within their region. If they're performing, so you're free. If you're performing, if you start not to achieve your targets, then you lose that freedom. So again, it's mutual. You've got freedom while you perform, but if you start to lose your performance, then that, that freedom, you know, gets a bit tidy. You're going to get a bit more constrained. So again, and I think that's a great example of how the principles generally don't stand alone, there's always more than one. So, you know, we talk about freedom, but I come back to mutuality. You know, if we talk about quality, I'm going to come back to efficiency In general. They don't stand alone, they're interleaved, but sometimes you know, you've got a story for one person and another.

Speaker 2: 37:27

Yeah, I love that. I love that we often talk about.

Speaker 3: 37:32

That's how we use them in the business. We just we'd start talking and you know you naturally weave into a principle.

Speaker 2: 37:40

We often talk about. Organisations don't have rules, have values, and the only time you need rules is when people don't want to live by the values, and so you know they're almost the consequence of non-value. You know non-value alignment, but most of the time people are really happy living by the values and they recognise the mutuality of that. So, lovely Kirill, you're going to ask a question.

Speaker 1: 38:02

Yeah, sarah, you were speaking before about how Mars feels like a family, and, hang on, I'm going to start that question again. You were saying before how Mars feels like a family, how, given they are a global organisation and there's so many moving parts to it, how do they keep that feeling at the core, given the bigger picture of such a global organisation? We've seen a lot of and my husband works for one that has started as a family business and has moved into the corporate space, and that's a constant challenge, and where my husband works, they do it really well, but it is a constant challenge to have to do that, and they're Australian based, though they're not global. So I love that you feel that Mars has that family feel to it. What are the things that they do to make it feel like that, even their size, because it would be really easy to just go for corporate, wouldn't it?

Speaker 3: 39:03

Number one the family is still really heavily involved and they visit the site. So I don't know how much you know about the history of the Woodonga site, but it was actually started by John Mars. He and his family came out into Australia and they started this facility. But the family still come and visit the sites. They're very private, the family, but they do come and visit the sites. They still work within the business, but we? It's actually a hard question to answer.

Speaker 3: 39:41

I think one of the things that we're trained in is you know, you look at the cans that we produce, you look at the trays we produce, you look at the bags we produce. And it's been sort of trained into us that Mars name that's not a company name, that's a family name. And you know when we're making decisions. If that was your name on the bag, would you put that out there? You know, would you be proud of that if that was your name? Because that's that's one of the things we learn when you join Mars. You do a training called the essence of Mars and it's really about teaching you about the company culture. And one of the family members I can't remember which one comes up and they say you know that's my name on the product you're putting out there, but I want you to treat it like it was your name. If it was your name, would you want that out there, and I think that's one thing. Like this, they're. You know this. It is truly a family. The family are still involved and we still.

Speaker 3: 40:42

There are some decisions that we have to take to the family, and then I think we have our own language and I think the five principles are the language that we use, that really thread through what we do. So you know, I was in the US for five weeks, primarily for work, some time back, and you know what I said about every meeting room being glass and every meeting room having the five principles on the wall and people using that language to make the decisions. It doesn't matter which site you go to, that's true, and they all. You can almost walk into a Mars site and you know. You know how things work, because there's just certain things that everybody does and it seems sometimes you think, oh well, they're just building it, it's just branding, it's not just branding for us, we really do live it, and one of the factories I visited while I was in the US, we've actually recently just tweaked the five principles. I wouldn't say they were redone, but they were tweaked because the five principles were actually developed a long time ago when we were primarily a manufacturing business. But now we have quite a large service division, so we have a lot of vet health as part of our business now. So the wording of the principles has been changed to encompass the service provision that we also provide. But in their morning panel, where we review product every morning, they were reciting it like it was on the wall and they were reciting it together just to get familiar with the new words.

Speaker 3: 42:17

So you know it sounds, you know, like a muscle If you're not exercising it it won't get stronger. And you know we vary. That's one way of doing it. I haven't seen that before and I thought it was a bit funny, but it was funny. But then I listened I actually was listening to the words. I thought, oh, that's interesting. That word was there Because saying it out loud is different, right? So you know, different people do it different ways, but there's the intentionality to bring it to life. It becomes our language, it's our common language. So you know, even when I go to Asia to travel around, we still talk in terms of five principles when it comes to decision making.

Speaker 2: 42:59

Sarah, it sounds like your experience working in the US may have been very different if you'd been working with Mars there rather than with a different organisation. It sounds like that might have been a very organisation. Do you think it was organisation-specific or do you think it was more broadly US?

Speaker 3: 43:19

I think most of it was organisational-specific. I think a lot of it came back to me and my assumption about culture. When I travel to different countries, I usually do research and seek to understand what are the norms of behaviour? What are the drinking rules? What are the eating rules? What should I wear? What's the right thing to do at the right time?

Speaker 3: 43:51

I didn't do any of that when I went to the US because I just assumed I knew I was like, yeah, I think for me part of it was I just hadn't done the work. Part of it was I was working for a company and that could happen in Australia. I could go and work for a company with a very different culture and I'm like I don't like this. You're right, I have, like I said, I spent five weeks in the US and I had a fantastic time. There was one factory in particular that I went to that I said to the plant manager I said if you were in Australia, I'd work for you. It was an awesome factory. I just had a really fun time there. So, yes, I think my experience would be very different.

Speaker 2: 44:32

It sounds like the Mars principles would mean that you would be free to challenge ideas and disagree with things in meetings and all that sort of stuff. It sounds like it's so embedded in the Mars DNA that it wouldn't matter where in the world you were.

Speaker 3: 44:49

I would agree with that to some extent, I think I still think cultural norms of the countries that you live in will prevail. So the way that you might go about disagreeing with someone might be, you might do it in a one-on-one conversation, but the ability to do the speaking up would be common, I would say.

Speaker 2: 45:11

Yeah, that's a great insight. That's excellent.

Speaker 1: 45:14

Sarah, the other day when we were talking, you said something to me that I wanted to dig a bit deeper into. We said something to us, and it was thinking about diversity and inclusion. You said I think about the quiet people in the room. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Speaker 3: 45:31

Yes, I can. I'm quite a loud person and I'm commonly the first person to speak, and I think it's part of my leadership journey. I've really learned that that's actually not how you get the best out of people. If a leader gives their opinion first, people tend to step in and agree because they think that's what you want to hear or because they think that's actually better than their idea, which it may well not be. So I think early in my leadership career I probably figured out I shouldn't be speaking first and then I used to throw the floor open to everybody and say right, what ideas have you got? But again, you tend to get the loud people who come forward and say they're confident, they'll speak up and they'll give you their ideas.

Speaker 3: 46:25

I think what I shared with you is when my team split from Australia and Asia and I had a team of mostly Asian associates. I started to hear from them for the first time and I thought, prior to that separation of those two teams, that I was including everybody. But it wasn't until I had removed the Australian element and they weren't particularly extroverted loud, dominating people. But when they went away altogether, then I started to hear from the quiet people in the room and what I heard was phenomenal, and it was a real wake up call to me that, even though what I thought was being inclusive by saying what does everybody else think, they still weren't comfortable in speaking up for all sorts of reasons. So it really made me start to think about well, how do I really make sure I get everybody included and making sure that I have the space for everyone, and what's the best way to get everybody's input, and also made me realise just because people aren't speaking doesn't mean they haven't got anything to say, and so I work really hard now to make sure you get everybody to speak. It's still challenging because the easiest way to do it is just to go around the circle and say, right, what have you got to say on this topic? Right, simon, what have you got to say on this topic? And you know, do that, and that can be really intimidating too for some people. So there's the whole concept of psychological safety and building that within the team. So you can do that and people do speak, but that can take time. So sometimes you've got to go and get people go away and come back to me with your ideas, or go away and we'll talk about your ideas in our one on one. You've got to figure out the dynamic of the team, but everybody should have something to say and even if they, what they have to say is you know, I've thought about it and actually I've got nothing. I've got nothing. I've got nothing to add. That's OK. But at least they said I've got nothing rather than said nothing. So it's probably something I'm still learning and still still really conscious of.

Speaker 3: 48:58

I do one particular training. I actually run across the globe and we do a lot of all right, everybody has to say something and I used to think that was really awkward and now, having run it and facilitated it, it works really well. But it's six days of training, so on day one it feels really awkward. By day three Everybody's doing it. So what I've learned through these people can get comfortable with it. So you've got to get a little bit uncomfortable in the first place and just go. You know this is going to be really awkward, but this is how we're going to run our meetings and sometimes just acknowledge this is awkward. But I'm going to do it because I want to hear everyone's view, not just me.

Speaker 3: 49:42

I always use many examples, because I'm always the loudest. So you know, just so that you're not dominated by me, I'm going to go around and I'm going last.

Speaker 2: 49:55

So a strategy I learned from a leader I worked with a few years ago was that if you tell everyone what you'll be talking about tomorrow, the extraverts will forget and just deal with it when they get to the meeting. The introverts will process before they get to the meeting and they're then ready to say something. And it's all about the way we process things and I've used that a lot. If I pre-warn some people, then I'm giving them the time they like to mull things over so that they feel comfortable speaking up, and that's one strategy. But I think some of the other things you've talked about there are fantastic. I think normalising it, making that culture in the room of this, is how we do it in our team. Then it just becomes accepted after a while as well.

Speaker 3: 50:45

Yeah, it's interesting what you said, because we do a lot of work with the MBTI Myers-Briggs profiles at Mars. We love Myers-Briggs. Yes, I'm an ENTP, by the way, just in case you hadn't already figured that out.

Speaker 1: 51:05

I'm pretty sure that's what I am too.

Speaker 3: 51:11

But I had an associate who worked for me, who I can't remember which one was on the spot versus off the cuff. Anyway, we did MBTI and we figured out between us he'd been driving me crazy because he didn't respond fast enough and I'd been driving him crazy because I wanted him to answer straight away. And MBTI was the language that we were able to use to say you're driving me crazy, he's like, and you're driving me crazy.

Speaker 3: 51:42

And I went okay. So how are we going to do this? He said right, so when you want something from me, come and see me about 3.30 in the afternoon, tell me what it is and then come back for my answer tomorrow. I went okay, yes, and we used it. We actually had these heads printed up with our profiles and whenever we behaved in the way that annoyed the other one and we didn't like it, we just hold the picture up and I'll come see you tomorrow.

Speaker 2: 52:13

It's funny enough.

Speaker 3: 52:16

It gave us a language.

Speaker 2: 52:19

It was actually an MBTI context where I had that discussion with this particular leader because I was facilitating some MBTI for their team, and that's exactly the context. So the other thing that we learned out of that well, that really came out of it and Kirily knows this about me, that I speak a lot in draft mode, so don't necessarily take too much of the first thing I say, because I'm just figuring stuff out, but my way of figuring out is talking about it, and I think that's another thing is to recognize that with those different people in the room I love that the quiet people in the room. I think it's a really important philosophy for our listeners to make sure they're getting value and giving opportunity to everyone in their team.

Speaker 1: 53:08

And not only that. When people don't speak up, ask yourself why as a leader, and ask yourself what I can do. More of that creates an environment where that happens. I think, instead of throwing to them and going why don't they speak up, I think we need to exactly what you said before, sarah think about what else can I do here to make this safer? What can we implement? What strategies, what team building can we do so that people know when I ask for their opinion, I genuinely welcome it. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 53:41

Well, I think there's an easy assumption for managers to make that if people aren't saying anything, it's because I've got nothing to say. And that may not be the case. I can guarantee it's not.

Speaker 1: 53:51

I just have one more. I have one question to finish, Simon. Do you have any more?

Speaker 2: 53:56

No, I've asked enough and talked enough.

Speaker 1: 54:00

If you were to say to your give some advice to your younger self starting out on their leadership journey, reflecting and you're a very self-reflective person, I love that what advice would you give them? As Sarah is about to fly out of the country and head on this journey that's taken all around the globe, what would you say to her?

Speaker 3: 54:21

I actually would give her the same advice that my mother gave me when I was 10, which is get two ears and one mouth, because you're supposed to listen twice as much as you speak. I love it, it's actually that simple.

Speaker 1: 54:40

Yeah it is.

Speaker 2: 54:41

Life often is, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 54:43

We either complicate it, but Well, Sarah, thank you so much for your time. I know it's been crazy your day ended at midnight last night and started at 4.30 this morning with the global times that you run on so really appreciate the time, and I'm sure our listeners will get lots of insights into some leadership tips that they can take from this.

Speaker 3: 55:03

It's been fun. I've enjoyed it.

Speaker 1: 55:17

So I'm going to throw to you straight away, and we'll wrap up this episode with a few takeaways from Sarah's the discussion we had with Sarah.

Speaker 2: 55:26

Yeah, and for me I don't. There's not much I can add to what Sarah said. There is so much gold in there. There are so many principles, there are so many understandings, there are so many approaches.

Speaker 2: 55:39

The thing that just kept leaping out at me was her journey as a leader, and I think it's a great lesson for me as a leader, for our listeners, as leaders, never rest on your laurels as a leader, constantly be challenging yourself, and that conversation we had about.

Speaker 2: 56:01

If we don't look back today on what we were as a leader a year ago with a little bit of cringe, a little bit of oh yeah, I was still a work in progress, then, I could have done that a bit better then we've stopped learning. The minute we don't look back and think, oh, I wish I knew them what I knew today, we've stopped learning. So what I loved about the interview with Sarah and all of her stories is that she's never stopped growing, she's never stopped becoming a better leader, she's never allowed herself to become complacent. And I think if that's the, I think if people can take some specific pointers from what Sarah said, but take that overarching message of constantly challenge and grow by reflecting, by hearing feedback, by challenging yourself to become a better leader every day, every week, every month, every year, then our listeners are going to grow into the best leader they're capable of being. That's all I feel the compulsion to say, partly because I was in so much trouble for waffling on in the introduction.

Speaker 1: 57:21

Yeah, look for me. I'm very similar to you. I've got three key takeaways from that. The first one was Sarah's ability to self-reflect and to be brave enough to do that, because when we are brave enough to look back and really go, how could I have done that better? What did I do well here, or what could I have learned? We have a saying that when we have a failure, when an outcome isn't the way we had expected it or liked it to be, the first question we ask ourselves is what failure of leadership got us here, and I think that she just lives that time and time again.

Speaker 1: 58:00

And that takes a lot of courage and to be brave, to really go. I'm really going to look hard at what's happened.

Speaker 2: 58:08

And that doesn't have to become self-flagellating, that doesn't beat yourself up all the time, but it is asking that question first. Before we look around and blame the people around us, we look and say how could I have changed that outcome?

Speaker 1: 58:21

And just really, I often say to the people I coach and I'm working with, it can be as simple as what did I do well and what could I do differently next time? What did I learn from? We've been learning a lot. I remember thinking when she was talking about was a lot of what we say through our programs and when we're working with people is that if we think we've learned enough as leaders and perhaps our leadership journey is over and that just highlights what you said is she's constantly hungry to learn how can I be better and how can I be better for my people that I lead?

Speaker 2: 59:01

And I just think that the hunger to know I'm not done yet and I want to learn more and I can learn more, I think is a really big strength of hers and the coaching stuff Before you give us your third one and I know I said I had said all I needed to say, but we knew that wasn't true I'm going to pose a question to you based upon that insight that you just shared. By definition, can you still be a leader if you've stopped learning, or are you no longer a leader once you stop learning?

Speaker 1: 59:40

I think it's challenging because if you don't think you have anything to learn, there's no room for growth.

Speaker 2: 59:48

Absolutely, and what kind of leader?

Speaker 1: 59:50

are you? You can be a leader, but what kind of leader are you? Is what I would say. What are you giving your people and your team?

Speaker 2: 59:58

And it's not the fact that you may know a heap, you may have learned so much as a leader, but the mindset that says I've got nothing left to learn. Then you've probably transitioned away from the mindset of a leader and over to you for your third one.

Speaker 1: 1:00:18

My third one was the coaching style of leadership that she's really adopted, and especially when she spoke about she feels like she now lets they're the tightwarrer walker and she walks under them with the net, and when we fall.

Speaker 1: 1:00:32

Her job is to help them get back up there and go again, and I thought that's brilliant. That is exactly what a coaching style of leadership is, and I think when you have had to be wear those different hats of different styles and I'm sure that the role that she's in she cannot be a coaching style of leader all the time and sometimes that needs a change of style. But when we know that a coaching style of leadership brings out the best in our people and also brings out the best in ourselves as leaders, how lucky are the people that she leads.

Speaker 2: 1:01:05

And.

Speaker 1: 1:01:05

I think that analogy of the tightwarrer walker. If you are someone that leads a team, ask yourself am I walking under them with a net and when they fall, do I help them get back up and give them the confidence and tell them I'm there to help them, or do I go? Don't worry, I'll walk the rest of the way for them?

Speaker 2: 1:01:25

And am I showing enough faith in them and belief in them that they?

Speaker 2: 1:01:29

want to get up there to begin with that they want to get out in that tight rope, but also that expectation. People sometimes put a lower limit on themselves than a great leader can say. I've got great belief in you, but I've also got high expectation, so how do you go on the tight rope? I'm not going to let you stay in here and be less than you're capable of being, but you know what, if I get out there, I'll be the one there to catch you. So it's like we often say don't throw people in the deep end. That's unfair. Throw them in the shallow end, make them get wet, then nudge them towards the deep end. So don't let them get comfortable and stay at the shallow end. Nudge them towards the deep end as you teach them to swim, and it is. It's expecting people to go out of their comfort zone and grow to become what they're capable of being, rather than staying safe and comfortable all the time.

Speaker 1: 1:02:19

That's all from me.

Speaker 2: 1:02:21

And I genuinely mean this time. That's all from me. I know we've said it before, even in this episode and, in fact, even in the last few minutes, but that is everything from me for now. Listen before you go. There's one more thing If you love what we do, get on our website, check out our events. There are a lot of events there. There's a lot of free events there are plenty and 20 series of really topical topics for leaders Is a 20 minute sharp shop at providing information in webinars. We've got about one a month and they are free. We've also got some paid events there. We've got half day workshops. We've got an ongoing six month leadership program. That's entirely online. So, if you love what we do, get on our website reallearningcomau and check them out.