What if the path to a more inclusive, diverse, and fulfilling workplace culture was just a conversation away?
Archie Beetle (they/them) is the Founder and Director at Queer Town (IG: @queertown.workshops), a queer-led business delivering educational workshops and training in workplaces and schools across Australia, with a focus on LGBTIQA+ inclusion and allyship.
We talk to Archie about how leaders can approach a topic that many of them have no lived experience of, that they are confused by, and that often makes them outright nervous about getting it wrong.
Some of Queer Town’s clients include: The Australian Ballet, Cotton On Group, Federation Square and GMHBA.
During their career, Archie has led the establishment of LGBTIQA+ advisory boards and working groups at a number of Victorian institutions, including: Melbourne Museum, The Immigration Museum and Scienceworks, and has served as a board member at Proud2Play, a not-for-profit increasing LGBTIQA+ engagement in sport and exercise.
Archie's mission is to ensure all workplaces and schools in Australia provide safe environments for LGBTIQA+ people to live and work authentically.
If you would like to connect with Archie:
Website: Queer Town | LGBTIQA+ Allyship Training and Educational Workshops
Instagram: @queertown.workshops
Linked In here
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Want to check out how Authentic your organisation is? Take our free online Authentimeter Assessment tool here
You can find full shownotes for this episode and more here
Visit our website The Real Learning Experience
Follow us on instagram or Linked In
Got a question for the Podcast? You can drop us a voice message via instagram or email us at: theculturenerds@reallearning.com.au
Thanks to our Podcasting producer, Josh at Deadset Podcasting for all his work behind the scenes.
Thanks for listening!
What if the path to a more inclusive, diverse, and fulfilling workplace culture was just a conversation away?
Archie Beetle (they/them) is the Founder and Director at Queer Town (IG: @queertown.workshops), a queer-led business delivering educational workshops and training in workplaces and schools across Australia, with a focus on LGBTIQA+ inclusion and allyship.
We talk to Archie about how leaders can approach a topic that many of them have no lived experience of, that they are confused by, and that often makes them outright nervous about getting it wrong.
Some of Queer Town’s clients include: The Australian Ballet, Cotton On Group, Federation Square and GMHBA.
During their career, Archie has led the establishment of LGBTIQA+ advisory boards and working groups at a number of Victorian institutions, including: Melbourne Museum, The Immigration Museum and Scienceworks, and has served as a board member at Proud2Play, a not-for-profit increasing LGBTIQA+ engagement in sport and exercise.
Archie's mission is to ensure all workplaces and schools in Australia provide safe environments for LGBTIQA+ people to live and work authentically.
If you would like to connect with Archie:
Website: Queer Town | LGBTIQA+ Allyship Training and Educational Workshops
Instagram: @queertown.workshops
Linked In here
******************************************************
Want to check out how Authentic your organisation is? Take our free online Authentimeter Assessment tool here
You can find full shownotes for this episode and more here
Visit our website The Real Learning Experience
Follow us on instagram or Linked In
Got a question for the Podcast? You can drop us a voice message via instagram or email us at: theculturenerds@reallearning.com.au
Thanks to our Podcasting producer, Josh at Deadset Podcasting for all his work behind the scenes.
Thanks for listening!
Before we get into today's episode, we want to acknowledge the privilege of living and working on Aboriginal land and we pay our respects to the elders, past, present and emerging. Hello listeners, and welcome to our latest episode of Authenticity Transforming Workplace Culture. I have with me my co-host, simon Tyson. Simon, people will have noticed that we've been MIA off their chosen podcast platform. Do you want to talk a little bit about where you've been over the past month?
Speaker 2:Well, kirale, when you say it will have noticed, I mean, obviously we've been flooded by emails, social media messages just begging us to. I just want to say where are you? Come back? Yeah, like all of those people, and I want to thank him Because it made- me feel very loved.
Speaker 3:He knows who he is.
Speaker 2:He'll be listening, right now yeah, look, I've had a wonderful month or so and it's been longer since we recorded. Since I got back. It's been crazy. We have so many exciting things that will tell our listeners about overcoming episodes happening in the business. But yes, I had a month away, which included three weeks in the United States for my eldest son's wedding, which was wonderful, and I know you pined for me. Yes.
Speaker 1:And so the wedding was in San Francisco. Simon, In San Francisco, yeah, which is one of my favorite cities in the world.
Speaker 2:I've been there many times because Nick lives there and it actually links in a little bit with the topic of today and you'll hear in the interview that I actually mentioned San Francisco.
Speaker 2:A bit of an observation on culture workplace culture, culture in a country, whatever. I think one of the really defining characteristics of any culture is what's remarkable. So if something is unremarkable in a culture, it's become normal, it's become normalized and we often talk about culture as being it's really the norms and the expectations. So one of the things in San Francisco there are so many examples of things that are completely unremarkable, they're just everyday behaviors, they're everyday occurrences that in Australia we would still find remarkable. And what I mean by remarkable is literally that that people would remark on it because it's not yet been fully accepted. And I think sometimes in cultures we kid ourselves that we've made more progress than we actually have, that we have a higher level of acceptance than we actually have, and it's when we find something remarkable. Then that is almost the proof that we haven't made the progress. Now I'm being a little bit cryptic because it will become apparent with our guests say don't bore us get to the chorus, I'd like to say I've missed you, bud.
Speaker 2:I think we'll find that in Australia it's really easier for us to pay lip service to what our next guest will talk about and pretend that we've made more progress. But in fact, what our guest will talk about is largely unremarkable in somewhere like San Francisco, but still remarkable in somewhere like Australia, and I think that's. I'd love our listeners to listen to the interview with Archie, and I'll let you introduce Archie in a minute, but with that in mind, with that context in mind. So that's the course I'm done.
Speaker 1:Well, a little bit of background into how our guests came around to being with us. We have had some requests when we've spoken to current clients and also clients that have come to us with workshop needs and culture needs, and part of it has been around leadership and their workplace culture, but some of those needs have been around diversity and inclusion, and we're both really passionate. I love that the clients have been coming to us and knowing what an important role in their culture that this plays, but we're really transparent on this topic that we simply don't have the lived experience to be able to deliver the content that workplaces need and it was a real gap and, simon, I remember you and I spoke about this when we were in Adelaide about three months ago and we just hand on a heart new.
Speaker 1:We couldn't do it, but we're like how do we like this is something that's out there.
Speaker 2:We wanted the clients to get what they the outcome they wanted, because their intentions were so great.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and it kills us to say we can't help you in this space.
Speaker 2:This is not what we feel totally inauthentic in trying to do it.
Speaker 1:Exactly right. So I had been following Archie for some time now on Instagram and following their journey of founding Quirtec. So Archie is the founder and director at Quirtec and we'll drop the links of how you can contact Archie Mentioned at the end of their interview how to contact them, but we'll also drop it into the podcast notes. Quirtec is a Queer-led business delivering educational workshops and training in workplaces and schools across Australia, with a focus on LGBTIQA plus inclusion and allyship. Some of Quirtec's clients that they've been working with over the past year or so have been the Australian Ballet Company, cotton On Fed Square and, just last week, when we spoke with Archie, gmhba. During their career, archie has led the establishment of LGBTIQA plus advisory boards and working groups at a number of Victorian institutes, including the Melbourne Museum, the Immigration Museum and Science Works, and has served as a board member at Proud to Play and not-for-profit increasing LGBTIQA plus engagement in sport and exercise. Archie's mission is to ensure all workplaces and schools in Australia provide safe environments for LGBTIQA plus people to live in and work authentically.
Speaker 1:So I reached out to Archie on Instagram and we had a really great chat and I just felt that what they do aligns so well with what we do and it's often a part of culture. It's so important, but it's a part of culture that leaders can often shy back from, simply because we don't know. We don't know what we don't know, but we also we're a bit scared of it Absolutely. And I know when I emailed Archie and I had some outline for the episode and I wanted them to let me know if there was anything that we could rephrase or we could word better, they said no, that what was there was really good. But they really appreciated that we were willing to hear if there were better ways to do things.
Speaker 1:And I think as leaders and Archie talks about this better than we can just how important it is to lead with kindness. I guess initially Lead with kindness but also understand that sometimes it can be really scary and feel really unsafe for someone that is a part of the LGBTIQA plus community and I guess, just leaning in to something that sometimes as leaders or as managers or as people, sometimes we can shy away from and lean back. I really loved recording this episode with Archie. They have so much to share and I just think every organisation needs to hear the message that they are, that they can come and convey and the difference it can make in a workplace culture.
Speaker 2:Bring it on Archie.
Speaker 1:We would like to welcome Archie. Now to our podcast episode. Welcome, archie.
Speaker 3:Hey, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Thank you for being here, someone. I thought a really good place to start with you would be just a little bit of a snapshot around who you are and your journey to founding Queer Town.
Speaker 3:Cool, okay, just like a really casual, easy start. Yes, hello, my name is Archie. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be involved. I use they them pronouns. I'm very proudly the founder and director at Queer Town and Queer Town where an Australian based business running educational training and workplaces and schools all around LGBTIQA plus inclusivity and allyship. So essentially we help teams kind of figure out how to make their workplace or their school and even more inclusive, even more welcoming, give teams a basic understanding of language around LGBTIQA plus and look at really practical ways we can be allies and implement that in our day to day roles. So that's what we do really lucky to work across all kinds of industries and we're a young business but we're growing pretty rapidly at the moment, which has been exciting.
Speaker 1:And, as I spoke about when we were introducing you to you and Simon and I, which had in, there's a real importance around diversity and inclusion. When we talk about workplace culture, can you tell us a little bit about the role that that plays when you go and work with organisations around the greater picture of their organisational culture, the role that this area plays?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I think you know what I'm learning more and more doing this work over the years is that diversity and inclusion. We're really talking about the differences between human beings, the differences that take place within our teams, and it's a matter of acknowledging those differences, embracing those differences, celebrating those differences. You know, in the same way, that our organisation isn't made up of 100 of the same role, where all different roles, different skill sets, different experiences, and you know, for me at least, the core of diversity and inclusion is acknowledging those differences and how can we really support them. So it's been really fascinating working in the LGBTIQA Plus space, because it can feel like a new space for a lot of businesses, a new conversation. However, lgbtiqa Plus people, we are not new. You know, there's evidence of our existence since the beginning of humanity. So it's been interesting having these conversations. How do we embrace these cultures and identities that have always been here? By just trying to make more room for them in a workplace setting.
Speaker 2:Ah Chief, tell me what led you in, what led you to start this organisation, what was your inspiration?
Speaker 3:Well, queer Town originally was a very different format. The idea originally was to create actually a content hub, and I was really passionate around content podcasts like your own, and online video series and so the idea was to create a platform where queer people could come and access content designed and developed by other queer people. And that was the initial concept. And so I kind of left my full-time job with this idea and I started speaking to people about it and people were getting excited. You know. They were saying there's nothing like that out there and I'd love that. So kind of got started.
Speaker 3:I applied to take part in a business accelerator and was successful. So that was run by Acme and the State Library of Victoria and so did this business accelerator and got some initial seed funding and, yeah, things were kind of taking off and I brought a co-founder on board and they were really heading up the technical side of what we were doing and sadly, we were part way through a lot of our production and they became quite ill and had to completely step back from work altogether. So I kind of left with this sort of half finished content. Covid hit and I was heading up this business, thinking what am I going to do now and for me, my background is in training and education, so I thought how can I use that to my advantage right now?
Speaker 3:So I designed a really simple workshop around LGBTIQI plus inclusion, because I knew that that was within my skill set, and I just started pitching up to different schools and businesses and immediately saw that there was a real hunger there for this kind of information and training and it just really took off. So what was supposed to just be a kind of side income and revenue stream to keep us afloat has now turned into the main business. So I've just organically followed that and, yeah, things have sort of taken off. Last year was really out sort of big year of training taking off. This year, really excited to say, we've been lucky to work with people like the Australian Ballet and Cottonon Group and Federation Square and GMHBA and some awesome partners and local community businesses too, that are just looking to create safer spaces for their team.
Speaker 2:So you really moved from the original concept of sort of quite a passive content that people could access when they wanted to to something that's much more personal, something that's much more there's a human being standing in front of them conveying the same messages. Do you think that's been important?
Speaker 3:I think so. I think what's been really interesting for me is how our audience has completely changed, like our. Yes, our product and service has definitely changed, but I think the biggest shift has been going from what felt like serving a queer audience specifically to now, typically speaking, a non queer audience. You know we're providing education and so that's been a huge shift, but it's been a really exciting one to kind of see that there are so many people who are wanting to learn and wanting to engage. I think you know, when it comes to diversity, inclusion as a topic in the workplace, a huge barrier is just fear and a lack of kind of current understanding, and something I try to do through this work is just really eliminate that fear, break down the barriers so that people feel comfortable to engage, to ask questions, to make mistakes in these chats, because otherwise it doesn't work, in my opinion.
Speaker 2:Fantastic, I've got, I've got. I'm going to earn up to something here. I like to, I'd like to think myself as very progressive, and so on. I reckon I'm like a lot of managers out there and Kearley was laughing at me before because every time I get halfway through saying and I had to write it down here every time I get halfway through saying LGBTQI plus, I panic and I go, oh shit, and I stop and and I think there's probably a lot of people out there who genuinely want to be good, people, genuinely want to do the right thing, genuinely want to be inclusive, but it's what does that look like? Because it's not part of our world until it is part of our world. And then all of a sudden there and I love that perspective, you've got that. Take away the fear of doing that. You know not getting it right, because I think that is the case for a lot of our listeners out there, that they want to do the right thing. But what does the right thing look like?
Speaker 3:Totally, and I think you know it can be intimidating. Like anything that's new, it takes a bit of learning, sometimes it takes a bit of practice and inevitably it means making some mistakes. But the thing that always shines through is motivation and intention. And if you're coming from a good place, if your intention is to learn to be respectful, to engage, it's so much better to do that and make an honest mistake than to avoid, ignore or disengage. And the research shows that. You know that experience of feeling isolated at work because nobody's wanting to engage with LGBTIQA plus it leads to poor mental health, it leads to poor productivity, it leads to some pretty scary you know content warning some pretty heavy things around suicide rates as well. So you know, if there's so much power in just saying look, I'm not an expert, I might get this wrong, but I want to engage because I know this is important.
Speaker 1:And also welcoming that feedback of teach me how you know what I mean, like being able to say if I don't get it right, I'm really open to hearing how do I get it right and what's the best way forward with this, and really having that open communication and that honesty from a respectful point of view of going. I want to learn. I might not get it right, but please, when I don't get it right, let's have a chat about that and so and teach me how I can get it right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally. It's definitely a two-way engagement and we have to acknowledge that. You know people will make mistakes along the way and we want to feel supported as we're trying to engage in something new, in the same way that someone wants to feel supported in who they are and coming to work and being able to feel authentic.
Speaker 1:We talk a lot when we talk about organizational culture, when we work with our clients, but also when we record episodes like this, we talk culture being the way we do things here and the norms that are formed. And when someone new comes into the organization, the way things happen is the way we do things. That's the way we do things here. I feel like and not having done being involved in a queer term workshop or anything but I feel like when organizations are embracing this inclusion and diversity offered by the workshops that are offered by Queertown, it sends a really strong message through the workplace culture of the way we like to work here and the way we like to do things here. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3:Big time? Yeah, absolutely, I think it's always. Often, when workplaces engage with me, it's typically the HR team reaching out. Yeah, it's typically people kind of on the ground saying you know, our team really wants this or we feel like we need to have this training, and sometimes, unfortunately, the barrier can be the leadership team. It can be leaders who think perhaps it's not particularly valuable or it's not worthy of the time investment or the financial investment, and that does send a really big message to the company to say we don't take this seriously, it's not something we prioritize and it's not just LGBTIQA plus specific. That sends a message that our team, their identities, who they are, you know we're just not willing to really invest in those conversations.
Speaker 1:And that's a barrier that we come up against as well. Like we will have HR people or culture come to us and we'll have those early discussions and then it's oh, we didn't get, you know, we didn't get buying from the leadership team on this. And I think it can be and, simon, you could probably talk a little bit more on this but it's a real downfall in some organizations to not understand what an important lever culture pulls in high performance results. Like it's just, it's one of the major, it's one of the major wins that you can get on the board is working on your workplace culture to get that high performance output, whether that be results, client satisfaction, staff satisfaction and it's 100% agree with you, archie, because that's a barrier we come up against as well. Simon, you could probably talk a little bit more about that.
Speaker 2:Look, I think whether you're part of and I'll go to my checklist here the LGBTIQA, and I'm missing an A, aren't I Archie?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the A name there yeah.
Speaker 2:Whether you're part of that community or not. I think if you work for an organization that you see openly and vigorously embracing that community with education, with initiatives, with open mindedness, it tells you something about the company you're working for or the organization you're working for, and I do think the majority not all people, but the majority of people today will say well, that's the sort of organization I want to be part of. So I do see, obviously, a massive benefit specifically around that initiative, but I also see that spillover message about this is the sort of organization we are, this is what we pride ourselves on being.
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally, and I think sometimes, as part of this barrier, leaders think, well, this isn't particularly relevant to us. I hear people say, oh, we don't have LGBTIQA plus people on our team. Or they say, oh yeah, we've got a gay guy, jared, and he's really happy. He comes to our work, social events with lipstick on and no one that's an eyelid.
Speaker 1:And if you've got a hundred staff and no one's openly identifying.
Speaker 3:It's not because they're not there, absolutely. There's going to be two issues. It's either one they're there, which is very likely, but they don't feel comfortable or confident to openly identify, or LGBTIQA plus people are looking at your business through your website or your socials and saying I don't see myself a fling in there or that doesn't look like a place for me, so I'm not even going to put in a job application. Hopefully it's not a matter of the hiring process itself prioritizing certain people over others, but we obviously want our workplace to reflect our society. So, yeah, having that workplace culture that's inclusive, embracing and I don't think anyone's ever gone to a workplace that was LGBTIQA plus, positive and embracing and said, well, that's about them, you know. Well, that's not a good way to place culture, to be celebrating and welcoming people.
Speaker 2:We actually had this conversation and we talked about some of our clients and I'm not gonna mention them, but some of them if you're listening, you probably will know we were talking about you because I'm gonna mention some numbers here. But there's an organization we work with that's got 400 other employees, almost all men, not a single, as far as we know OpenLiGayMam amongst that group. That's just not statistically possible and I completely agree with you. It's gotta be for one of those two reasons that either it doesn't feel right to speak up or it doesn't feel right to decline. And we also talked about and I'm happy to name this one there's not a single and I might be wrong because I'm often out of date with football, but there's not a single OpenLiGay AFL footballer is there current footballer.
Speaker 3:Football's also not my expertise, area of expertise, but yeah, as far as I know which, again, statistically it's just not possible.
Speaker 2:That's reflective of the culture and I should say in the elite competition, because there are one or two in some other leagues, but one or two if the exception rather than the norm.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and something that's been really exciting through doing this training, I recently worked at the start of the year with a workplace and we worked with all of their teams and departments and then afterwards I've stayed in touch with their HR team and they said a number of staff members came forward afterwards and said after that training, I want to open up about who I am and actually I use Baybam pronouns in my personal life and I'd like to have a conversation about what that looks like at work and I've heard that a number of times people feeling confident to come forward because suddenly they know that their colleagues have a basic understanding, have some foundation of language that they can use. So it doesn't land on this one person to educate the rest of their team or justify their existence. So that's a really powerful thing. Teams will start to see that.
Speaker 3:Team members coming forward and opening up, which is really positive.
Speaker 2:In the spirit of something you've taught me today, I'm gonna ask you a question because I don't know the right answer, and this is to help me ask the next question. When I talk about LGBTQIA+, do I talk about it as a community? Do we talk about? Is that correct, or?
Speaker 3:It's a really good question. It's actually something that I've been talking more and more in sessions because, as in a session, what we kind of break down, what is the difference between a person's sex, a person's gender and a person's sexuality? Because they're three separate things and people start to realize in sessions well, if it's so different, why are they all grouped together in one acronym? And so something I like to say is, yes, we are different communities. The experience of a trans woman is very different to the experience of a gay man. They're actually totally different. The similarity is that we're othered from the norm. The norm is we expect everyone's gonna be heterosexual, everyone's gonna identify strictly as a man or strictly as a woman. Anything else is unexpected or surprising or different. So we're all lumped together.
Speaker 3:So it's kind of hard in a way. Yesterday I was speaking with a team of leaders and someone was saying there's so many labels now Like, is it making it more difficult for yourselves, in a way, having all these labels? And I kind of had to say the irony for me personally is that the only reason I have this label, we have this label because we've been labeled as different. So we've kind of been given these labels and now suddenly mainstream society's saying, oh, there's too many of them, Like, why do we need them all? So yeah, we are very different communities lumped together as this rainbow group, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think anytime. We think we're progressing. In Australia I spend a lot of time in San Francisco because my eldest son lives there. So at least once a year I'm in San Francisco, often there for three or four weeks, and just the integration into everyday life of people from any one of those groups is just so much more advanced.
Speaker 2:And people and this leads to the question I want to ask it's like there's not a barrier to being the person I am. I can be the person I am without having to wonder what that means. And you talked before about you know this is what I am outside of work, or this is how I identify or how I describe myself, and what would that look like at work? And so I'm assuming one of the major costs if I'm a manager, one of the major costs for someone in my team who's not sure whether they can say this is who I am, is that they've had that whole act of having to hold back on their full identity, of having to suppress some part of themselves and constantly questioning is who I am okay here? What are the other costs that, as a manager, what should I know those people are experiencing if I'm not making the workplace, a place where it's okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that is a really big one and it's hard to name because it's often unseen and intangible. That sort of compounds over time, day to day, having to hide who you are, you know, check the language, make sure you're not saying the pronouns of your partner if you don't want them to know their gender, or avoiding conversations altogether, is really an exhausting process. I think another thing that can flip by managers is workplace banter and conversations that are happening behind the scenes, where jokes are being made and it might not be upfront, but this person who's not open and out yet is privy to this kind of culture or banter or conversation or jokes being made. So that can be a really tricky one to address. So empowering your staff to feel confident to call that out and you know, banter is great, we love it and we don't want to be overly sensitive if we don't need to be, but, you know, not at the cost of someone's identity yeah, I think really.
Speaker 3:I think one of the biggest barriers is having a channel of communication that's open, and yesterday I was speaking to some leaders and I asked them. You know they were sort of saying, oh, I reckon our team would be okay to manage these conversations not quite sure. And so I said you know, are you confident that your team, do you know that they would feel confident to come to you and ask you these questions or have this conversation? And they said you know, we're not sure. So I think asking yourself as a leader, would my team feel comfortable to have this conversation? Would I feel comfortable to have this conversation? It doesn't mean you have to be an expert and know everything, but do you feel comfortable to engage?
Speaker 3:Because recently I had a CEO say of a very big company say to the team I'm always the last to know, I'm always the last to find out these things. I didn't realize that there was so much going on in this space and there was such a need. And you know, in my mind I'm thinking you know the leading, you don't want to be the last to find out. You know you want to have that open channel of communication. It means kind of naming it, potentially be out of touch with your team and your company. So if you're wanting to kind of get started, a great place to start is an anonymous survey. You know, try to get some really accurate, open, honest information from your team and that might give you a snapshot of where you're at, where some gaps are. Okay. How can we start to open those channels of comms a bit more?
Speaker 2:We often find people don't in the workplace, don't have the courage to speak up about having a different idea, let alone a different identity. So when someone won't say to their colleague, I disagree with that, you know, that's a pretty light level of vulnerability. When they've got to say that you know my identity is completely different to the one that you think it is, that's a pretty massive level of vulnerability. So as leaders, we shouldn't be surprised when people don't feel safe. No matter how much we see our workplaces through rose-coloured glasses and so on, we create a lovely, safe space, the reality is it's probably less safe than most leaders think.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it can be, and I think sometimes we prioritize the reactions that we're expecting. You know how the rest of the team going to react, how people are going to feel. Sometimes the conservative voices in a room are the loudest voices in a room, and something I talk about through Training at Queer Town is all voices need to be heard and the purpose of this work isn't to change people's belief systems and cultural backgrounds that have spent decades growing and building. You know, it's about creating a space where people can be honest, bring themselves to work. So we need to have a balance where people can have their cultural beliefs and their religious beliefs and, whatever it might be, their personal lived experience, but someone else in the room can be authentic and be themselves as well. So, yeah, it's a tricky space because it is a personal one. It's not just about professional work and KPIs. We're talking about personal beliefs and personal lived experience.
Speaker 2:I think in workplaces we often see and to be honest, we don't see it very often because I don't think there's enough visibility but when there is, there's just this fixation on details that should be secondary to this humanity. So you know, which toilet will they use, you know, becomes the focus rather than are we making it okay for this human being to be okay at work? And I think if they started with that bigger issue, then the details tend to take care of themselves.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you for naming that. I sometimes say it often comes back to the three B's when we have these conversations, people think about bathrooms, bodies and bedrooms. That's where people's minds go to. It's like a human curiosity and because the reality is there's been so much fear mongering over many years and it's very easy to use those things against a community.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so unfortunately, there is a lot of emphasis put on that, and bathrooms is a massive one in schools, in workplaces, in public, and the kind of conservatism mongering is this idea, just to name it, that trans people will be a threat to others in bathrooms?
Speaker 3:Yeah, accessing a bathroom that isn't aligned with their sex assigned at birth. What I always name is the fact that research tells us that, from what I've seen and read, there hasn't been one case of that happening, so trans person being a predator to someone else or threatening them in that way. However, there is so much evidence of trans people being assaulted in bathrooms yeah, just for being in there. So the conversation is just very biased at the moment and, yeah, we're kind of losing sight of the bigger issue here and the fact that we're talking about people's mental health, we're talking about people's safety. You know, it's so much more than that, so it can be a tricky one. It is a really big barrier. So I think a big piece of this conversation, to be realistic, is as a leader, how do we make sure our team feels comfortable? Confident, you know we can't tell them that they're being irrational. We have to listen and, you know, try to come up with a solution that makes everyone feel comfortable.
Speaker 1:And that's a really important point you make, archie is where do they feel safe? Because I think when people are in fear, it often goes to our own safety and we forget about why they're there. And it's there there because they feel safest there. So it's really got nothing to do with us. It's about allowing someone to be in a space where they feel they're at their safest when they're at their most vulnerable in some instances.
Speaker 1:Simon actually sent me an image of a sign in a restroom that he saw in San Francisco, and it was the words at the end of it that it basically said if you think someone's in the wrong restroom, it's none of your business, but I really like the end that said we are all choosing the restroom that makes us feel safest. Please don't take this away from anyone. And I think that lost we're trying to remind ourselves to lead with humanity. I think that that's a really important thing to remember is something that's making us feel uncomfortable. Imagine how uncomfortable it is for that person and let's just let them feel safe. If that's, if this is where they are, let's let them feel safe.
Speaker 3:Totally, and I think it's unfortunate because you know the reality is is a conversation around safety, and people feeling uncomfortable or unsafe is very important. It's very important knowledge and it doesn't come out of nowhere. You know. It comes from the experiences or whatever it might be, but it's not an issue of trans people making people unsafe. It's a projection of fears on to trans people. The trans people are not the perpetrators of that, so that's a really unfortunate thing.
Speaker 2:It's over dressing some, some outdated taboos to hide limited thinking behind. Really it's. I can't justify the fact that I'm narrow minded and and not compassionate, so I'm going to hide behind this you know little taboo and make it all about that, and that's it's lazy thinking, really isn't it? We've got to call it out for just being invalid and like that, like that time that I think clearly does.
Speaker 3:I think I think a big reason behind it is often just a lack of knowing someone who's in that community, lack of personal connection to it. They're kind of just going by what they seem in the news or the media. And it's interesting running workshops. What has become now probably the thing that gets the most feedback and the biggest response is when I deliver workshops. I share my personal story, identifying as queer, as non binary, and people always at the end of the session say this is the thing that's going to stay with me, or now I understand, or now it makes sense because I've just heard a personal story about it. If you don't understand what that experience is like, it's so easy to reject. But as soon as you've heard some emotion behind it and a personal experience, you can suddenly identify with it, empathize a bit more. So that's a really important part of training and education. It's that empathy piece. So as a real balance of the workshop we're educating, we're building empathy so we can relate to it.
Speaker 2:And that's what I meant, archie, before, that it wasn't the ideal circumstances to transition in the business, but you went from passive content, personal story, personal experience, and I think that's going to be so powerful. Listening to you film managers out there, one of the things that I'm taking from this is that if I'm a manager and I've got a team and they've got these concerns the petty concerns, what does it mean, etc. I can't tell them their concerns are invalid. But potentially, what I can do is say I understand that's a concern, but let's just pull back a minute and think about the human perspective here. And we're talking about another human being and you've got the right to come to work and be who you are and be proud of that.
Speaker 2:Why would we remove that from someone else? So maybe, instead of getting caught up in a debate about the trivialities, pull back to that bigger picture. And because I always think, if I won't name the person I've got in my mind, but there is someone I know quite well who is racist about every country they've never been to. But as soon as they go to that country and experience the people, they're no longer racist about that country because they've experienced them as other human beings and genuine human beings and so on. That's what we're really talking about here, isn't it? Create a space where people can be themselves. Let the other stuff take care of itself We'll deal with it but, as a manager, pull back to that bigger picture. Is that valid?
Speaker 3:I think so. I think looking at the big picture definitely does help. So, yeah, I'd agree that it's about that big picture. We're talking about people which are Mac humans. We're talking about people you know, unfortunately it does get dramatized and sensationalized when we're really just talking about people being able to be themselves and be happy. You don't have to come to Pride March. We don't have to do Pride March. I just want to be able to come to work and talk about my weekend, where what I want to wear to make myself feel comfortable and not feel as though my job is threatened or I feel comfortable in a tea room or whatever it might be. So, yeah, that big picture. We just want to feel happy and comfortable at work.
Speaker 3:It's not a real big ask, is it? No, I know especially. I mean the KPI's are the big ask.
Speaker 1:We just want to be comfortable while they're doing it.
Speaker 1:That is so true.
Speaker 1:Actually, I'm just going to go back to something you said, because I think it's a really good tip that you've given our leaders on where they can start.
Speaker 1:So I read on your website that in 2022, 97.5% of workshop participants said they felt better equipped to create a safer environment for their LGBTIQA plus peers after having one of your workshops.
Speaker 1:So the obvious answer to my question right now is getting in touch with Archie and have a workshop with him, with them.
Speaker 1:But our leaders, listening to this conversation and thinking what can I do to start today, or what can I do to start tomorrow or when I get back to the office, to feel more confident in both myself leading my team, but also to know that we're working towards creating a safer environment for our peers. Because I feel and I know and I know from speaking to people, but also know from talking to you that a lot of times, leaders don't lean into this area because it's that lack of confidence on where the best approach or where to start is, or how we begin to navigate. So I think that, before running an anonymous survey and I think that that's a really that's a great tip to give our leaders but for people that have listened to the conversation today and think, oh, this is what we need, and if contacting you isn't what they can do right now, what's something that they can do, that they can begin to get to make those steps forward?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, as I said earlier, asking yourself some questions is a really helpful place to start, to give yourself a bit of a temperature check. You know, do we have people on our team identifying as LGBTQA+, do we not? Do our team members feel comfortable and confident to engage with this or not? Do I feel comfortable to engage with this or not? So having that initial conversation is really helpful, obviously touching with the HR team to say you know where's the team at, how's everyone feeling? Trying to get that gauge, I think, if you're looking to kind of show the fact that you're engaged or involved, because you know we can't just say, oh, I often hear leaders say, oh, I've got an open door policy. You know, come and touch me whenever you want. And realistically, you know, the person who's potentially doing marketing isn't going to knock on a CEO's door to say, hey, you know I was thinking about my identity. So to show and reflect through your behavior, little little things go a really long way. Getting a pronoun, badge, pronoun pin with your pronouns on it, putting it on your landed or your shirt, is a beacon to say I get it, I'm interested, I'm engaged, this is who I am. You're welcome to share who you are. It's a really simple thing to do. Another thing could be maybe you attend a seminar that's LGBTQIA plus specific, or watch a documentary and you share with your team hey, you know, I watch this or I listen to this or I engage with this and things with some of my takeaways, would love to engage in some conversation around it. So it's just some active steps to engage.
Speaker 3:A big thing that I recommend all workplaces have is some sort of pride network or employee resource group around LGBTQIA plus. So it could start small. When I was in workplaces I would literally get a little informal group together of people who's interested in getting involved. We'd have a little group, would say, okay, what do we want to achieve out of this? And then we'd pitch it to the leadership team so it could start informally and just having a space where people can talk about these topics, and that is a great platform to get things moving, build some momentum, so to show your support for that group and, even better, to show up.
Speaker 3:You might not get to every meeting, but if you get to a few, that's great. So you know, that's kind of like more of a maybe medium term. Another great easy thing to do is to pick a date next year, 2024, we're going to celebrate where it purple day or International Day against homophobia, biphobia, transphobia and pick a day, work towards it, get a couple of people together who can help coordinate it, and that builds momentum. So that's maybe more of a longer term goal. So hopefully that helps, just taking some little steps to show.
Speaker 1:I think it does, and it's all. We talk a lot about the micro choices that we make. Every decision we make at work, everything we do, say, think and decide contributes to how we impact the culture and the overall culture of the organization, and this just aligns with that so well. It's just those small choices of having your pronouns so that when someone walks into your office or someone receives an email or someone gets on the Zoom with you instantly they see that there and it's almost like, oh, like, this is safe, this is a safe space. They get it, and so I think that's so. There's some really fantastic tips. I think there's some short term tips. There's some medium and long term tips for our leaders on how we can begin to do, say, think and decide things to create a more inclusive safe space for the people that we know, but also the people that we may not know, that feel safe in our teams.
Speaker 3:Yes, totally, and I'll continue reiterate, as I do in workshops is so much better to engage and make an honest mistake than to avoid or ignore disengage. So you know, it does take a bit of courage, but people will see that. You know, and as a member of the community I know, without a doubt, if my leader was trying and made a little mistake, I'm not going to be focusing on that mistake. I'm going to be grateful that my leader is getting engaged and trying and making an effort, rather than feeling as though they're not even interested.
Speaker 1:you know not even relevant to them.
Speaker 3:So, please be brave, give it a go.
Speaker 2:What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say, and you know. So if we've got a leader who's saying I'm really open, approach me, but there's no follow through, there's no action, some of the things you recommend it or we only have, we only have a day that's anti homophobic when we've got an openly gay person in the workplace. So you know, or we, you know, we talk about the person that comes to the Christmas party and wears lipstick and they're fine, and that's the person we get to do all this. It's very marginalizing. I've got another question. Again. You've given me permission to date up, to make mistakes, so I am I correct in thinking a couple of times you've used the phrase queer. Is that almost a if? If I wanted to describe all of these things collectively, is that a good collective term? If I said if you've got people in the workplace who are queer, does that, is that like an umbrella for everything, or no?
Speaker 3:It's always a conversation that I have in the workshop. The term queer, because it's a very complex and nuanced term. As many people know, it has a very dark history. It was used very violent, discriminatory ways against our community. So there's a lot of people.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, some people still don't feel comfortable identifying as a term queer, particularly if you're of an older generation, experienced that directly or witnessed that there's a good chance you don't feel comfortable identifying with that term. So I always say in workshops use it with caution, you know, try to be aware when you're using it. If you're not sure, then I would say LGBTIQA plus. I know there's a lot more syllables, but it does avoid some of that risk. And in remote regional areas sometimes the term queer can still be used in those discriminatory ways. So I don't think it's a perfect umbrella term, unfortunately.
Speaker 3:I know everyone's always looking for the easy umbrella term and, to be honest, not everyone feels as though that reflects them. You know we don't have time to run a workshop now, but those in the intersex community, for example, don't necessarily feel as though I'm a queer person. It's just someone living with an intersex variation. So I don't think it's a perfect cover all. However, I would say in personal life, putting my personal hat on, I use the term queer all the time as a collective term Queer, community, queer, mate. You know it's my favourite word in the dictionary. I've named my business Queertown because I think there's a huge power in embracing that term and using it in a business sense. I think it's maybe not always a perfect fit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's great advice and I guess one of the things there's two things that leap out for me today. I love that concept of make an honest mistake rather than not engage, and the other thing that really leaps out at me is that if you're leading a business, if you're in a leadership team out there leading an organisation, and you've got a couple of dozen people and you've only got people that, as far as you know, identify in a binary way and are heterosexual, then statistically that's not quite right. Something is going wrong, and that's one of the things I hope our listeners do is they challenge themselves and say, well, if that does describe us, and if we've got 200, 300, 500 and we've got that circumstance, then one of two things is happening Either people aren't speaking up, and we've got to ask ourselves why, or people are not drawn to our organisation, and we've got to ask ourselves why. But either of them should prompt that reflection.
Speaker 3:Nice. Wow, I wish I felt like that. Really welcome on.
Speaker 1:He's going to live up. You're telling him that for a long time.
Speaker 2:Thanks.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for your time today. I love what you do and I think that it aligns with what we do so well and, like I said when I was introducing you, that I think it's really important. We've had people come to us, clients come to us and ask if we do this aspect of training and I just think I'm so passionate about learning from lived experience and exactly what you said before. When you stand up in front of people and you share your story, it just it lands with them in a way that they begin to have even a little bit of the understanding that they didn't have before they came into your workshop. So we will. I love that we've connected now and so, like I said to you, when we have clients that need that aspect, but we'll share in our notes how people can get in touch with you. Do you just want to share, for our listeners listening now, just how people can reach out to you if they want to?
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure, thank you. And thank you for this opportunity and platform and I'm excited for our connection as well. And it's a very small business, so to have support is really powerful. To invest in a small business, a queer business is really powerful. So queertowncomau is the best place to go. You can learn more about our workshops. You can get in touch with the website Very excited that we're also going to have a new website soon.
Speaker 3:It'll be looking sexy and schmick. So, yeah, please reach out there. Otherwise, hello at queertowncomau. You can email, you can reach out directly. But if you would like to support us, maybe it's not your business, maybe you don't have the time or the budget or the capacity. A great thing you can do is tell other people about queertown, share it with a business that you do think would value this type of training, because that's how we grow and my dream is for LGBTQIA plus inclusive training to be in every business, to be part of combined training, for people to come on board and get that basic language and understanding so they can feel more confident. So, yeah, any support is always much appreciated.
Speaker 1:So great to chat today. Thanks, archie, thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 2:So I clearly loved interviewing Archie, loved their message and loved the insights. I actually loved the fact that I needed to feel a bit uncomfortable in terms of my ability to effectively lead in a situation like that and that Archie left me so much better off for that. So as we start, you know I'm going to let the listeners see a little bit behind the curtains here. We had a long discussion this morning before recording this about whether I should share a couple of experiences, and part of our concern was all those fears and all those concerns that Archie talked about in the interview and whether we'd say the wrong thing and whether we'd get it messed up and whether it would be framed poorly and people would take exception. And what we concluded and I really like where we got to is that actually, by avoiding talking about it, we were exactly part of the problem that.
Speaker 2:Archie's trying to address. So do you want me to dive in and talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 1:Go for it.
Speaker 2:Because, really, for our leaders out there, we want them to be able to take Archie's insights, what they shared with us, and use that to be more effective leaders for LGBTQIA plus people in their workplaces. So the first experience I had was 20 odd years ago and as a founder of a sporting organization and I'm not going to mention the one because not for fear of the sporting organization's reputation, but because I don't have permission from the person I'm going to talk about I was approached by a person who was transitioning from male to female and they wanted to compete in the sport as a female, and they asked me whether that was acceptable. And, of course, as I said, I'm talking 20 years ago and this was very early days and it wasn't even really being discussed by major sporting organizations around the world, and I asked permission. I said, look, this sounds like the appropriate thing for me, but can I talk to the committee? And they said to me no, we want this to be completely private. And so, after a bit of conversation, they agreed that I could talk to one other person, because I just needed a sounding board. I needed someone, and this was a person that I strongly respected and knew would keep it confidential.
Speaker 2:So we worked through it and I'm really struck now by how we were so impacted by the fears of other people and by the narrow minded perceptions of other people, because the whole conversation was what's the reaction going to be if they compete as a female and then completely obliterate them in the sport? And that was the wrong conversation. We arrived at the right outcome that we had the wrong conversation Because what we eventually came to was there was no one we could Google, there was nothing we could look up. That was some sort of precedence here. We just basically agreed that if someone identifies as a female, then they should be allowed to race as a female and it wasn't our right or our position to deny them that.
Speaker 2:And particularly at the level of the sport, we didn't have the whole international complications. This was more a community level. But I look back and think that was the conversation we should have had and, as I say, we got to the right outcome through having that conversation. But we spent way too much time caught up on other fears and trivialities and I'm really proud of where we got to. I think it was really enlightened of us to get there as an organisation without any reference or guidance or and so long ago, but I'm a bit annoyed that we wasted so much time thinking about things that weren't relevant to the wellbeing of the person we were talking about.
Speaker 1:And that was very much what Archie spoke about. A lot of the places that they've worked with and I know clients that we've worked with previously who have been through a process like this where they're managing the needs of the person but also managing what that looks like with the rest of the workplace. It's very much. What Archie said is sometimes we concentrate on the things that aren't the most important and sometimes we concentrate on those questions and Archie referred to what toilet will they use? And that becomes like the biggest thing that everybody's doing and everybody wants to know. But it's really got nothing to do with that.
Speaker 1:That's so far down the track and it's an important question because people that they're questions that people want to know and sometimes, exactly what you said we get caught up on focusing on the wrong thing instead of going. Hang on a minute. How do we make this workplace safe to start? How does this person feel? How can we educate the other people in the working environment so that they no longer are fearful of what do we want to be or something like that? How do we get everybody understanding that bigger picture? And it's not easy.
Speaker 1:And the reality is that those are the things you know it's. People change offices and they worry about where am I going to sit in if I'm not there, and what about if I have to walk an extra 50 steps to the lunchroom and what does that look like? So these are concerns that happen with any type of change or any type of new environment, but I think even more so when it is the welfare of a person and the statistics show that there are some really damaging experiences that people. It's really quite frightening when you think about it and I always just think and I've used this in a couple of my recent coaching sessions and it really lands well, I was thinking, if that was my son or my daughter, or if that was my niece or my nephew, or if that was have kids, if that was my best friend's son or daughter, if that was a child or a young adult that I really care about, how would I want them to be treated?
Speaker 2:Or if that was me.
Speaker 1:Or if that was me and it's hard to imagine it as you use it.
Speaker 1:So from ever feeling those feelings and you can't imagine it ever being yourself. But the reality is it could be your child, it could be your niece or nephew, it could be your grandchild, it could be your best friend's child. I just think about that and think about how would you want them treated and how would you want leaders to lean into that situation? And I think always, first and foremost, it's how can we make this a safe environment for everybody, first and foremost, but how do we make it safe for everybody else so that they feel that this isn't something to be fearful of. It's really.
Speaker 2:Sometimes, in getting caught up on the trivialities, we focus on almost irrelevant welfare for a noisy group and ignore or override massive welfare concerns for the people who are really vulnerable in that situation.
Speaker 1:So also something I thought about was, as a leader, think about if there's other people sitting back watching the Sun Fold. You may have other people that haven't openly identified as part of the LGBTIQA plus, that haven't identified as that openly to you, and they're sitting back, especially if you have a big workforce. We heard the statistics that Archie spoke about. They're sitting back watching and they're seeing this person, how that's rolling out for them and this will be how safe they feel to go. I have to keep this hidden or this is something. I'm safe here. I can trust that I can come to work and be who I want to be.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And after the interview last week because I thought I just wonder we talked about, if you've got a reasonable sized team and you don't have anyone who openly identifies as one of those groups, then there's only two possibilities. As Archie said, and that actually led me to do some Googling and some research Around about one in 10 people identify as one of those groups and so if you've got 10 people and no one identifies, then statistically you're an anomaly. So as organisations grow, it's just not feasible. So, because workplaces are complex, I want to share one other story, and this was in a role more recent as a senior executive, and we had someone in the workplace who let us know they were transitioning and it was quite a progressive workplace in many aspects and that I go back to what I said in the opening.
Speaker 2:That was fairly unremarkable in this workplace because we had accepted people's choices, we'd made it more comfortable, we hoped although I'm sure that person's real experience was. It was still uncomfortable because we were still at work in progress at that organisation and they still are. But it got complicated because there were issues with some of the people that we were there to work with. So some of the customers, including Some of the customers and there were issues with some of the staff and some of them were outright hostile and some of them were unsupportive and some of them were just clumsy and some of them really struggled to get their head around what they should be doing just as Archie talked about and it really became complicated as a leader to have discussions that were supportive with them, with the person who was transitioning, but at the same time addressing some of those things around. We have to recognise that people are making really They've got good intentions, they're trying to do this and they're just messing it up. So how can we support them to do it better versus some people who are out now unsupportive and hostile? It was a really complex issue. That supporting and accepting that someone was transitioning was really easy because we were already in that headspace but dealing with what that looked like in that workplace and for everyone around them and how it must have been really frustrated for the person who was transitioning when they weren't addressed the way they wanted to be addressed, etc.
Speaker 2:But it was also really challenging for people who were trying to do the right thing and just kept getting it wrong and trying to navigate that as a leader. We really had to do two things. We had to be courageous about it. We just had to be prepared to have conversations with everyone and say we won't accept anyone who's got bad intention and who is deliberately doing things. We will support everyone who's trying to work through this and we'll try and help you do that as smoothly as possible. It really took a lot of strong communication.
Speaker 2:It took a lot of courage as leaders to not just hope it all sorted itself out, to actually get in there and deal with it, and it really made me as a leader. It really challenged me because I was constantly asking what's right here, and for me, the only thing I could come back to is what are people's intentions? Are they trying to do the right thing? And if they are, how can we support them to do it better? And if their intentions are bad, then deal with that differently. And that was the way I navigated that one. So I hope that's useful to the leaders. I have no lived experience of representing or being a member of one of the groups we're talking about and what that must be like, but I do have a little bit of lived experience as a leader trying to navigate that complex issue in the workplace.
Speaker 1:I'm going to put you on the spot here. It's not going to be a hard question. What is one key takeaway from when we spoke with Archie that you are going to take away now?
Speaker 2:Number one for me is I loved Archie's perspective that, rather than not engaging out of fear, we don't engage in the issues engaging them, but genuinely with the intention of doing it well. I've got to talk about that particular example with the intention of doing it well and accepting I might make mistakes, but when I'm not sure, ask, which is what Archie gave me permission to do in the interview and I took them up on that. And again, that's the classic of the exactly what we're talking about, isn't it? I'm trying to do my best and that's part of my process. I took them up on that two or three times in the interview because I thought this is an opportunity to learn. So that was my number one takeaway.
Speaker 1:I love the message that it sets. When an organisation works with Queer Town, it just sets a clear message in the culture of this is the way we do things. And for people that may be thinking, where do I fit here? Can I come to work and be my authentic self? Is this a safe spot? Is this a safe place to do that?
Speaker 1:I really think that the organisations that work with someone like Archie and their team we talk a lot about the micro decisions we make everything we do, say, think and decide contributes to the workplace culture that we have, and I think working with a team like that and the message that sets, but also the education it shares, it gives people an understanding. You're learning from someone with that lived experience. You can ask all those questions. I loved talking to Archie and hearing some of the questions that executive teams, but also workplace teams ask, because they create a safe space. They invite the questions. They say ask me anything, as long as it's from a place of kindness and wanting to learn. And so I guess my finisher for this episode is if you are a workplace that is thinking, this is an area that we could really work in. I urge you to reach out to Archie and have a conversation with them, because I just think it is transformational what the message that it brings to your people, but also the elevation that it brings to your workplace culture.
Speaker 2:I'm a battle leader for a 45 minute interview. Oh, so am I. So you know what can Archie contribute? What can Archie and his team contribute in a whole workshop with the team? Well, I think they'll leave your workplace a better place.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that, Simon.
Speaker 2:See you next time, which won't be as long. Bye, bye.