Weight Loss for Life

Food as Medicine with Dr. Khush Mark PhD

February 07, 2023 Keri & Matthea The WLCC Season 1 Episode 100
Weight Loss for Life
Food as Medicine with Dr. Khush Mark PhD
Show Notes Transcript

When it comes to nutrition, we often find ourselves looking externally for the answers we want. The reality is that we really have to start listening to our bodies a lot more than we do. What the studies show will continue to change, and new diets will continue to emerge. No one has the perfect answer and there is not one diet out there that is designed specifically for your body. It’s about learning to listen and trust your own body's wisdom.

In this episode, we are joined by a very special guest, Dr Khush Mark PhD, who is the founder of the New School of Nutrition in London who believes that nutrition is not just about what you eat, but also how you eat it, where you eat it and what your body does with the food.

We cover a range of topics, including:

  • Brown fat, white fat and leptin resistance
  • Protein intake and plant-based proteins
  • Gluten free diets
  • Meal replacement products
  • Hunger hormones
  • Blood sugar levels

And much more!


  • 09:48 - “Diets are always there. People see diets as restrictive, and as temporary. Until they achieve that goal, then they can come off it and go crazy again. And really, it never works.”
  • 21:38 - “Food is like a form of love, isn't it? So why would you restrict something that actually is making you feel better and making you feel loved?”
  • 38:26 - “As a nutritional therapist, we really do believe that autoimmune conditions stem from the gut. So if you can support the gut, if you can heal the gut, we can reduce the symptoms.”
  • 43:16 - “It's not just food. It's also our diet of the books we read, the TV we watch, the people we listen to, our friendship circle, it's everything. It's not just the food on our plate, it's beyond that.”
  • 47:31 - “It's so much better to do two lots of 15-minute walks than one walk of 45 minutes. That helps regulate your blood sugar after a meal.”

Time Stamps

  • 00:45 - Khush shares her background and her journey to nutritional therapy and becoming the founder of the New School of Nutrition in London.
  • 7:03 - They discuss how diets have changed over the years and how we evolve our own biochemical individuality.
  • 12:22 - Khush discusses the link between brown fat, white fat and leptin resistance.
  • 15:41 - We hear Khush’s philosophy on nourishing your body through nutrition and optimal wellbeing when it comes to food intake.
  • 19:01 - Khush answers a member's question: “how much protein should I get?”
  • 26:35 - Matthea asks what some good sources of plant-based protein are.
  • 30:40 - We learn how often we should be getting hungry.
  • 34:11 - Khush gives us her thoughts on meal replacement products.
  • 37:30 - Khush discusses gluten-free diets.
  • 42:32 - We find out why we need to look at the whole picture and not just food.
  • 44:58 - Khush gives us her take on the hunger hormones like ghrelin and leptin and tells us what we can do with food and nutrition to support them.
  • 48:48 - Khush gives us two top tips for someone working on nutrition or trying to support themselves better.
  • 51:34 - Khush tells us where you can connect with her and find her work.

Read more + connect with Khush: http://www.thewlcc.com/100.

Keri Williams:

Welcome everyone. We are here today with a very special guest. We have Khush Mark, who is the founder of the New School of Nutrition in London. So Khush welcome. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Your work? Yeah. Well thank you for having me. I just thought A little bit about myself. Gosh, I, I think I came, got into this the long way round, which you probably all are familiar with. Mm-hmm. But, you know, initially trained as a scientist. I was working in a laboratory for very long four years on my PhD, which was in pancreatic cancer research, and I. And you know, although I loved it and I was really quite naive, thinking, yeah, we're gonna find a cure for cancer, we're gonna be, you know, King's College, he's gonna have a big, all that sort of stuff. It was not what I expected. I mean, I was working with DNA samples, not working with real humans, but I would go with my professor and when he'd do the operations, I would take the cancer sample, put it in liquid liquidation, bring it back to the lab, take out the dna, look at what genetic, you know, it is more sort of gene based. And then we're looking at various drugs, whether it prevent tumor growth or not, in, we use. Culture lines, et cetera. And you know, towards the end of my PhD when I was writing up the thesis, somebody gave me a book called A Time to Heal, and it's by a lady called Bi Bishop and I will always remember it cuz it was so, it was one of those books for me when I read it, I thought. What a load of Tosh, you know, how dare somebody say that. Through nutrition, they cured their cancer and, you know, did some juicing. Went over to Mexico to some weird hospital that was probably not even a real hospital, and then came back saying that, oh, I, you know, my cancer's cured and now she's written a book. Honestly, it, but the reaction was so, because I, because my, my husband now is who is my, not my husband at that time. He said, why, why are you reacting like that is somebody's sharing their story. And I think it's that kind of, you know, that academic snobbery, you know, how dare somebody say that and and actually that book really did so Ace Cause I thought there must be so, so. Although Google or Yahoo weren't, you know, around in those days, I do remember whatever the search engine was, I typed, I remember typing in and I can specifically remember where I was sitting, the computer that I had, which was really old one, and I typed in vitamin C and pancreatic cancer. I was surprised at how many published scientific articles there were to actually show that vitamin C was beneficial. So I then thought, okay, so these names popped up and there's a name that popped up, which was Dr. Nicholas Gonzalez, and I dunno whether you've come across him, but he was based in New York City and he was trained at Cornell. And then he went off and started his kind of alternative clinic in cancer. And he had people with pancreatic cancer with all sorts of cancers. And he literally just. nutrition detoxing what he then called the metabolic type diet, which was very much unique to your biochemical individuality. And he did cleansing, he did coffee enemas, you know, so his patients had to sign also a contract because he was, he was under watch and he was called a quack. He was known as a, as a, you know, doctor that's gone quack and all that sort of stuff. Anyway, I was then really fascinated because I just thought, gosh, maybe there is something out there. in the end. I then, by the time I finished my thesis, got my PhD and all that, that, by then I was not interested anymore. I was really into this discussion. This, I was really interested in nutrition, but started reading around a lot more. and then started looking at, there's a course in up in Bridgeport in in the US that was doing a master's in Clinical human nutrition. And they're thinking, oh my gosh, wouldn't that be amazing? How can I, I possibly couldn't do a course. It's, it's in another country and I'm here in England. How am I possibly gonna do that? So anyway, I went and did, I was doing a postdoc for one year. During that year I was kind of looking at the local course in the nutrition diploma courses and said, I don't wanna do a, you know what just didn't kind of gr Then my husband was, to start an office in New York. Mm-hmm. And I was like, let's go. Let's go for it. And then I ended up doing the nutrition course, the master's in Bridgeport University. It was one weekend a month, it was for two years. And I dived in. I just, I had no nutrition background. Yes, I had the biochemistry and all that, but I didn't do a PhD nutrition. I didn't really know what nutrition was about. It was, you know, as far as I was aware, dieticians know about nutrition, not nutritional therapists. Anyway. Absolutely loved it. We had the likes of Dr. Atkins. We had Dr. De Mardo, Dr. Jeffrey Bland, who'd come to New York and do, you know seminar days conferences? It was just my, the, my time in New York just reminds, it was like a wow. It, the whole three years were, wow. So by the time I qualified, my dissertation was on the microbiome. So this was 20 2001. So I did this dissertation on the microbiome, which was like this. Okay. Now, if I had to do the microbiome, it'd be like from the top to the bottom here in this, in this room. And and since then, nutritional therapy, functional medicine has just, you know, snowballed. And I've never looked back. And I started my practice in New York and then we moved back. Cause I was, you know, having my first baby and I wanted to be back being a, you know, being a family and, and home, something familiar. and in New York, you know, the city itself is not, it's not very, well, I didn't think it was very family friendly, not many green spaces. Although I loved it, loved my time there. So then moved back, started a practice here, and then started teaching at different nutrition colleges and, you know, integrated nutrition into my practice, which is kind of wellbeing as well. Cause it's a lot of lifestyle stuff. But since I. it's you know, you're both probably familiar now how much nutritional therapy has grown and functional medicine and the whole, you know, biochemical individuality is, I'm so glad because before it's just everybody, you know, we did that. We, what I grew up with was very different cause I grew up with eye verdict medicine. My mum is very much into, well, she was until I think she got also bit a bit jaded and went over to the west side and decided that, you know, medicine is the best for the western medicine is the best form of cure. But we grew up on gu, you know, we grew up on drinking onion water. If you had a migraine, you drink the onion water, you, you then throw up and your migraine goes. It was all. I used to call it witchcraft, but now I look back and think, gosh, you know, she did know what she was doing. But then yeah, so that's my journey, you know? And then since then, I've been running a practice since 2001. Oh. Amazing. Such a, a really fascinating journey. And your course sounds incredible. Really, really great course. Yeah, so the course, so that Carrie, we had guest lecturers, so they were brilliant and I think I have to say the, some of the guest lecturers were at, they're just so passionate. And then when we had when I saw, you know, Dr. Atkins, when he taught, he was so dynamic, you know, turning the food pyramid upside down, you know, not, not literally, but. Yes, you moved that whole carb being carb heavy to now being more protein and fat, although I know in those days it wasn't about the quality of the food. It's just like everybody, and I remember when I moved to the states, there were groups that were doing keto together women. So women would meet together and have these keto groups and get excited that their dipstick, you know, their urine sticks were showing ki that they're in ketosis. It was really fascinating time because it was just then I think that nutrition started becoming, So yeah, so we had some great, great teachers and also the, being in New York, we had a lot of conferences. So, and they were totally affordable because I'm already in New York. I didn't have to travel from the other side of the world or, you know, so getting to see, and Dr. Jeffrey Bland is, you know what we is the godfather of functional medicine. And he's quite, you know, he is an amazing, amazing. Yeah. You, you know what I really hear from you and it's, this is always interesting to hear. Over time, I think we always think we've, we found the answer and the reality is we really have to listen to ourselves because it's always changing what the study's gonna show, what the ingredients are, all these things. And so at the end of the day, I think it's about no one really has the perfect answer, but what feels right for you? Getting more connected to your. What feels true at that moment because your beliefs might change over time and none of it is more or less true than anything else. So I love hearing your story because just even when you talked about the gut microbiome, that must have been, that was the infancy, right? And now it's like that's the exploding edge. We would've never predicted that. Right? We don't know. Yeah. Isn't isn't that, isn't that just I have to, you know, we laugh about it cuz I've just you know, the school that I run and I, I've. you know, so it's one weekend, a month for two years, and I've just finished the, the notes on minerals. They're not the same as last. you know, every year they change. And I don't mind because I one, I do love learning, but also I love integrating, like, you know, we've got cell salts in homeopathy and I just think there's so much that we can, you know, nobody's got the answer. But also what I really love about, you know, what we were taught was about the indi, it's, it's bioche, biochemical individuality. And I remember one of the lectures talking about cuz we had a lot of dieticians on my course and they were kind of switching over to what. What they now call themselves functional d. So they don't call themselves dieticians anymore, but functional dieticians, which is more kind of, kind of nutritional therapy, but not and I always laugh, I always think, you know, nutrition, the word nurture is all about nu, you know, nutrition. And U t r is, is is that, you know, part of it is in the word nurture. And whereas I laugh about the diets, Because diets are always there. People see diets as restrictive as, you know, temporary. Until they achieve that goal, then they can come off it and go crazy again. And really it never works, you know? And this is after having running a run a practice for nearly 22 years. Diets never, you know, you've got so many diets. I mean, I'm sure you both are aware of them now, all the way from what was it? But you know, I remember. But maybe a decade ago there was a one, I dunno whether you've come across it, but it was called the Skinny Bitch. Yes, I remember that. Yeah. Yes. Open it down to the skinny bitch. And I was thinking even the name of the, you know, the name of the diet is so, you know, that's, it's not nurturing, you know, the whole point about food, you know, what's our first food? It's, it's breast milk for most people. Not, you know, but generally it's breast milk and what that's about nurture. It's not about diet. You know, these, and these babies are in ketosis for how long? On, on breast milk. You know, and that's because that stage in their life, it's so important for their brain development doesn't mean we have to be in ketosis for the rest of our life, you know, thank God. But you know, it's just fascinating how, also how we evolve our own, own biochemical individuality. You know, our stages in life, you know, menopause. going through the menopause right now and how that changes everything. Yeah. You know, we were laughing about the other day. My sister said, oh my gosh, you were never big. I was a size eight, but I, it wasn't because I dieted or anything, and I think it's a six in the US I think. But I remember going to gap, it used to be Wednesday lunchtime from it used to work at the New York Blood Center. Then at 12 o'clock Wednesday lunchtime I'd go to the Gap cuz all the size 60 s were on sale from like$200.$20 and I'd get them because it's great cuz nobody else was a size six. But now I'd never, you know, going through that stage of the men menopause and all the hormones, you know, it's like even with the cycle, some women are more, you know, do better on carbs at a certain time of their cycle than they do on, you know, more fats and proteins. But it is about learning as you, you said mat, it's learning to listen. To our own body's wisdom, you know, nobody has a diet for me. That's right. You know, for, for the rest of my life, or even for the next few ye few weeks. Because even with the menopause, you learn, you know, as progesterone drops, and starts becoming dominant. Your cravings change. And then you want to ask, you know, the other days, one of my clients who's she's really into whole the intermittent fasting, doing the cold showers, and, and she didn't re, you know, I said, do you know what the hot this whole thing does? You know, the whole cold showers and everything? And we started actually talking about Brown fat versus white fat. Yeah. And you know how white fat doesn't have as much mitochondria as the brown fat? And she said, oh, I didn't know that. So it's, it's a trend, but I think sometimes it helps just to understand why we are doing this. Why is Kush recommending that I do more weight resistance? Because actually it helps the brown fat versus the white fat. And therefore you're less so-called leptin resistance if you wanna go. You know, it's so much about where the individual is at, at that. coach, can we just clarify because I don't think that everyone knows the difference. So you mentioned, you know, white fat versus brown fat. So brown fat is more mitochondria. But can you take us all the way there, kind of like the link between that and then less leptin resistance. Like can you describe that a little bit more? Cause I don't think people are gonna know what we're talking about. Yeah. So basically when your body is, so you've, we've got a hormone called. So we are, you know, the leptin hormone is the one that says, okay, we are now. You are now satiated. You can stop eating. And it also is released by our fat cells. So if you imagine the more white fat cells we have, the more leptin we produce. Okay, so you think, oh, great. Then that means we're getting more messages to our brain saying, okay, you've had enough food, you can stop eating now. But sadly, what happens, just like insulin, the more leptin is like the child gets loud and starts screaming and you put your fingers in your ears cuz you don't wanna hear them. They let you become leptin resistant. So, but if you have more brown. which is more mitochondria, which produce energy and do all sorts of other things. Cuz now they're finding that, you know, they're important in illnesses in actually that the mitochondria controlled the biochemistry, so to speak. And so when you've got more brown fat, you've got more mitochondria. It's actually more metabolically active. So, and the brown fat does not actually create that leptin resistance because once you become leptin resistant, you can keep heating. and not have that switch off. Like, okay, I've had enough food now. So, and that's So what, so when people say, well what does that mean? Do I have to have cold showers? No, you know, I hate cold showers. It just means that, you know, do some weight resistance exercise. It doesn't have to, you don't have to go to the gym, is use a band, you know, it's just, we've also forgot about movement. you know, because especially since lockdown, so many people are quite, got used to sort of sitting at their computers and doing, you know, sort of work at their computers and not, and not remembering to move. So movement is so important. Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you've brought in around resistance training as well. It's just, it's such an important thing just to remember, oh, if I'm doing a little bit of this, it's gonna help me control, you know, how much I'm eating and how much I actually want to eat. Absolutely. Fascinating. Yeah. When we were having some chats before, something that I really resonated with what you were saying was the whole thing around nutrition is all about nurturing. It's around the heart, it's around. You know, love and all of that stuff, whereas diets, you know, it's got the word d i e, you know, you can really see like, you know what that. Yeah. I'm wondering in a nutshell, what would you say is your philosophy when it comes to nourishing your body nutrition, you know, optimal wellbeing when it comes to food intake? Do you know? Oh gosh, Kerry, it's such a difficult one because I've got friends who are dieticians as well, you know, cuz we're all kind of, we're in the same world, but they work for the N H S and they're always like, Oh, you've got it so easy. Your job is so easy Thought. It's not one, it's, I don't see it as a job. Cause I do feel like, you know, it's, it's a calling. You know, you, you're passionate about what you do. But I think one is, How, see, I always believe that our body's talking to us. So symptoms are a form of our body saying, okay, some things needs addressing here. Please, can you, did you sleep enough last night? Sort of thing, you know, because that also helps with le leptin resistance as well. Believe sleep is really, and it all sounds so simple, right? So basic, but sleeping. Sleeping can also reduce sugar cravings. If you're getting enough sleep and you get that your cortisol, your stress hormone drops, you get the rest and you, you heal and digest overnight, then you're going to wake up with more vigor and vip. And so, and that's shown that if you don't sleep enough, your cortisol can actually then not rise in the morning. Cuz it's, it's the whole circadian rhythm is gonna out of things six, working with the, you know, working with the rhythm. So when it's dark you start, start winding down and when. Light is make the, most of the daytime is live like hunter gatherers used to live and nurture to, you know, nur the word nurture. So if I always think of babies, you know, look how they love food. A baby doesn't, you know, it's not born saying, oh, I hate food, I'm gonna restrict you. I don't want to, you know, they, they generally, they straight away suck on the breasts. They'll breastfeed, you know, okay. We're not, not talking about complications like tongue tie or anything, just generally their natural, you know, their natural inclination is to feed, is to feed themselves, nurture themselves, and. is very much about nurturing and you know, culturally in the Indian culture, somebody comes over and if you, you know, like if you go to my parents and if you go there and you don't drink tea and they make you a chai tea with sugar in and milking and you know the, the cinnamon and the ginger, and you say, no, that is an absolute dishonor. you know, because food is about it. It's a gift. They're, they're giving you their love through food, you know? And, and, and I remember growing up as well, having, you know, grew up in a very traditionally Indian home. there was no, there was no dieting. Never heard of the word diet until I hit my teens and my, some of my friends were dieting or their moms were dieting. And remember Rosemary Connolly, they were wearing leotards and doing all, and I thought it was really trendy and oh my gosh, I wish my mom was like their mom. And I'm so glad. And they're thinking, actually, food was such a big thing that it was never a big thing in the sense feeding your body. We never saw it as a, you know, restriction or losing weight or anything like that. So I think. it is, you know, most cultures food is, it's social. It's about connecting warmth. You know, you watch now my kids as well got two teenage boys. They love food and I'm so glad cause I think I'd hate them for not love food. I mean, it's a bit expensive, you know, open the fridge door and sudden you go and you think, oh my gosh, where's it, you know, where's the food gone? But it is, it's about, it's about liking yourself, nurturing yourself, you know, that you care about. Yeah, I, I can relate to everything you're saying. And we have some teenagers in the house too and it just, food's gone. So something, you know, we got some great questions from our, and I'm sorry I'm having some lighting issues here. We got some great questions from our members beforehand and I wonder if we could kind of pick your brain on your thoughts, cuz I think our members are really gonna. Benefit from, you know, hearing how you think about this. So I think something that comes up often is, well, how much protein should I get? People really want this. Give me the directive, give me the number. You know, I hear this in the clinic all the time as well. And so I, I really like your thoughts on this. So I'm wondering what do you tell people when they ask questions like that? Do you know Matt? I think it's when somebody say when, if a client or if I get an email and somebody says, right, do you do menu plans? Do you do? And I'll say no, because I really feel that makes me feel restricted cuz I just, I don't believe in, because if I, and also if you do a menu plan for somebody, something's never right. Oh, I don't eat this, I don't eat that. I do, I react to this. I do. And I just think, okay, one is it. You know, they say about 60 grams for women a day, right? 60 gram of protein. But you. Look at the different stages we go through in life. Also our own lifestyle. If I'm hugely stressed, if I'm having a really stressful week, I mean this week my son's side is, you know, he is done wonderfully well and he is got his last exam today, but it's a high pressured school that he chose to go to, and I've been feeling it for him. He's been going to bed at half 12 at night, then waking up, going to school. and he's chosen this route and I'm, and I'm feeling the stress and you know, the first thing that I do when I get up, I go and take the dog for a walk and that makes me feel better. Then I have been craving a big breakfast, so I've been having like three poached eggs with my gra because I just feel, and it kind of grounds me. But yeah, I won't average on an average day eat three poached eggs for breakfast. So I do think it's about lifestyle as well. So the more stress we are, or if we've got insulin resistance, so if we've got a family history, Or say, if I had insulin resistant, I would be more keen. Make sure that I have more protein than I have starchy carbs. So it, it, it's, it's about who the, who's asking that question, you know, who's that individual? What's their history, what's their story? Do they have any family history of diabetes or even for, you know, eating disorders. I worked years ago when I first, when I graduated and moved back to London, I worked for an eating disorder charity. It was called New Identity. And it was it was shocking cuz I'd not experienced that myself. About how many women, there were women by then, there weren't even young girls had, you know, had such an unhealthy relationship with food that to even. the word nurture. I mean, so, you know, I remember one lady one of the speakers talking about nurture and about she was talking about the father's love because she was, she, that's what really healed for her was her relationship with her father. And it was just amazing how I, I, you know, how it's actually as It's your, it's like a form of love, isn't it? Food. So it's kind of, why would you restrict, restrict something that actually is giving you, making you feel better and making you feel loved? So I do think with the, the protein, the carbohydrate, the how much fat it, it's a mindset. It really is, and I struggle with that because I always say I'm not a dietician. You know, I, I do, you know, again, I can, I will refer my clients to some dieticians when they say, well, I want to know how many grams of protein That normally to me indicates there's a, there's a unhealthy relationship with food somewhere versus saying, right, I'm gonna sit down and have three poach eggs with, you know, because I'm just feeling slightly. I feel so seen with all of that, cuz I know how I have been in that mindset before. Cuz I don't know, like we've spoken a lot Kush, but I don't know how much you know of my history, but like I've yo-yo dieted loads or tried five different diets and all the time I was looking for the answer. Someone to tell me what to eat, how much to eat isn't so true. It's like we have this scientist approach. Be the own scientist of your body. Yes. Find your forever plan, you know. Figure out what works for you and work with the healthcare professionals if you've got diagnoses and, you know, so you can figure out what feels good. So I, I love hearing your perspective as a nutritional therapist and seeing how that aligns. Yeah, and you know, I also, I get, you know, I used to do this, I don't do this so much, but I do teach it to my students. Na, you know, if you have a sheet after you've eaten a meal, how'd you feel two hours later? Just check in with yourself. You know, what am I, am I already. So if you are already, if you're truly already hungry, okay, not that kind of pretend hunger. If you are already hungry, then okay, look back. Did you actually have too many starchy carbs? You know, cuz sometimes it, it can be an indication of insulin resistance or some kind of blood sugar thing going on. And it's amazing how many clients will come back and say, that is so powerful. I was like, you pay me for. you pay me to teach you just to two hours later after a meal, have a look at it. Sometimes it can be that simple. And then, you know, and then I remember, cuz I used to get migraines and I realized my trigger was low blood sugar. If I went too long without it. And I'm, even to this day, I cannot, if I'm hungry. I don't get, don't get to that point anymore. And I don't have that hyperglycemic up and down, but I'm not, I cannot have chocolate, cannot have cheese, don't drink alcohol anyway. But there's another food group that I cannot have if I get to that point of hunger because they will trigger a migraine. So yet somebody else can grab a piece of cheese and grapes if they're, if they're hungry as a snack. I couldn't do that. And again, that, that is biochemical individuality. It's about the individual, but it is very much about what is your body, you know, what is your body saying to you just two hours after a meal because, you know, I mate you might be familiar, but, and Carrie, when you do you know, when here on the NHS you can go and do a glucose tolerance test. So you go in the morning. To the hospital and they'll give you glucose solution and then they measure your insulin and your glucose levels and you'd be amazed how many people are actually insulin, insulin resistant and they don't know it. you know, and then they do. So always say if you feel two hours after you've had a meal and you feel already hungry or a bit, you know, shaky. One, look back at your meal. Did you have enough protein? Was it, because the biggest thing is, I think that's missing in most meal plans is actually cuz protein is expensive. you know, it's not unless it's going say, you know, I grew up as a vegetarian. My parents are vegetarians. But we did in those days. My mom and dad weren't strict. Ve we used to have meat once a week, which was a Friday, you know, payday. And we used to have chicken curry, which was delicious. My mom's chicken curry is just, it still is delicious. And I remember but, but my parents still had GI. you know, they still had the, you know, butter. They still had all those foods and they, you know, in India they grew, grew up on raw milk, but they, it was a very healthy way of eating. But generally, as a vegetarian, if we started weighing, okay, how much protein should I have per for, for me, if you're a vegetarian, you'll need a lot more chickpeas than if you had a, you know, piece of chicken. Because it's, the chicken is more protein dense than the chickpeas. So it very much depends on, and there is, as you said, there's no one, there's no one size fits all, and I, and I don't have the answers for anybody, you know, everybody finds their own answer, but it is about, Going ins. I think it is always about going inside and asking. Okay. And sometimes some people are saying, but I don't know how I feel two hours later, because they've never actually thought about that food can affect how they feel. That's what I wanted to say. You said, oh, this may sound simple. It is not simple at all because we tell our members the same thing. How I always say, how do you feel 30 minutes after, one hour after, two hours after. And exactly like you said, like if you can't make it a little while, then that meal didn't serve you well. So we need to, we need to look and, and the meals are gonna change over time. All of that. Yeah. But you actually made me think of something, and I know a member asked us this, but I've been a vegetarian my whole life and something I get asked 24 7 is what are good sources of ve of plant-based protein? Cuz I know we even have vegans in our community, so I'm wondering what are your thoughts? Just, have you thought of X, Y, Z? What do you recommend to people? Do you know? I, I'll always say, if you look back, see I. Believing, going back to sort of hunter, I mean, everybody's well hunter gatherers, they, they weren't vegetarians. It's true, but if you look at cultures, so even, you know, with my parents vegetarian, They'll have lentils, pulses, chickpeas, you know, all the beans and lentils, pulses. You look at other cultures, they're fermented soya products, not soy fermented soya products. So those are really important. Somebody will say, oh yeah, I, I get protein from my cheese. Like, no. Cheese is a great, it's a great condi. It's a great, you know, bit on the side, but it's not your protein. Your protein really is your, your legumes, your lentils, your pulses, your kidney beans, that's the protein, your plant-based proteins, I don't, you know, just to give, You know, the, the whole, and I think the whole, you know, vegan, going vegan as well is it's, it's harder, you know, because it depends on the lifestyle as well. And I think it also depends on the weather, the climate. Cuz it's much more easy to be, for me, it's much more easy to be a vegetarian when I'm in India. It's because the climate, the lifestyle is so different to hear. Here it's, you know, getting up, doing the, and I feel more grounded when I'm actually, when I actually eat some meat. But the vegetarian sauce, the plant-based, definitely your, your pulses. And, you know, lentils, that is so helpful. I, okay. And also before I forget, is how you prepare them. So pre-soak them in apple ci, you know, bit of apple CI of vinegar in the water. So you're getting, you are going to reduce the fight, the impact of the phytic acid cuz you want, cuz some people say, oh no, I can't do lentils because if I eat lentils I get gas, I get windy and like, okay, so what do you do? Oh, well just take them out the cannon. No, pre-soak them. you know, just add a like a, a teaspoon of apple side of ingar or yogurt, anything that will start that slow fermentation process. Leave it for 12 if they're dried. So if they're getting dried, then you want to leave them at least 24 hours in water Wow. Of apple side of vinegar or a bit of yogurt. So what you're doing in Indians do this traditionally. You know, they, so, so it allows them for that nutrients and all the fighting, you know, all that gassy stuff to sort of die off before you cook it. Okay. You've changed my life today, so this is great. I'm literally gonna go do this cuz I feel like I've been, I've gotten it all wrong, so thank you. So someone's asking here, so not Greek yogurt. What? Greek yoga I'd consider protein. Sorry if we, yeah, because that's, Greek yoga is quite different to regular yoga. It's a lot more sort of protein based. Yes. Sorry. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Yeah. What about bi carb soda? We tend to soak with a bit of, I think, bi carb soda. My partner does. Does that do the same thing then as the apple side of vinegar for pulse? You know, Carrie? I dunno. Mm, interesting. Cause when you said Apple, I was like, I'm sure we use bi carb. That's interesting. Cause it's, it's all about that fermenting, you know, like, you know, when you spr. Yeah. And so it's before they sprout, it's so the nutrients is just about ready to burst. But you, you cook it before, so then you are, it's more bioavailable as well. I am gonna take this back and let Nick know, because he gets lots of digestive stuff as well, and this is why he's so, like, I have to soak them for ages, but he uses something else, so this might be better. Okay. Fantastic. Yogurt, anything that is, is like, you know, ferments. Yes. Yeah. Interesting. You're too long. Yeah. You don't wanna go too long. Then where then you, you don't wanna leave it, you forget. And it's been left there for three days. Not good. Not good. Yes. People are saying actually it might speed up the cooking process, so maybe that's why, but this might be the fermentation. Interesting. Okay, so we've also had a comment cuz we've, we've kind of been discussing protein and hunger and plant-based protein. So someone's actually asked here, how often should we be getting hungry? What are your thoughts on that? Oh my gosh. Okay, so the thing is, so this is what, when I trained, okay, we were taught that you eat little and often. Okay. It's done a whole u it's kind of gone the other way. You eat, so try not to snack. So you give your body actually a break. Again, I always say, think back to hunter gatherers. What did hunter gatherers do? Their, their metabolism. Had the ability to adapt to change. So they went from ketosis back to sugar burning, back to keto. You know, it was very flexible and that's what I always say is a, is a healthy metabolism is if you can shift so that, so again, if you, if you feel that you need to eat every two hours, or you have your breakfast and you have a balanced breakfast, you know, your protein, your carbohydrates, like your, you know, fibrous carbohydrates and your fat, and then two hours later you've just got to work. You've traveled on the tube and you're already ready to have something's not. Either it's the meal. you know, maybe it needs more protein base or there is a blood sugar issue going on. So you want to find out is there in an insulin resistance is so common now, Carrie, it's like, you know, I've got some clients and I think it's thanks to the US and the crazy CGM movement at the, you know, the continuous glucose monitor. I've got some clients and said to me, you've gotta stop it now. Stop using your glucose monitor. Give yourself a break, because they've become a bit obsessed. I'm like, just u just use your body's own wisdom. You know, you've had a huge chocolate bar yesterday evening, your sugar's gonna be out of whack. Why'd you have to beat yourself over it? That you've, your CGM is now telling you, oh my gosh, you're a bad person. You shouldn't have done that. So I think there's, you know, there's benefits to these things and there's not. So, so that thing is, it's about. Why, why are you hungry? What did you have before? So if there is, and, and the reason I'm really mindful is I do have a, a lot of my clients that I see do have insulin resistance, or they have, you know, that pre-diabetic STA shows and then going back and they'll say, and I, and I'm very big, I really am a believer in intermittent fasting. But then some clients will say, I cannot do more than eight hours because I'll be, you know, chomping, I'll be waking up in the. Yeah, which is fine. Just do eight. Do what you can. Let's slowly get your metabolism adaptable again. So we should be able to go from breakfast four hours later, have lunch without feeling hungry. Then by the fourth hour, ready to eat. Definitely ready to eat, and then again later on for the evening, ready to have a good meal. But not in between. If we want, if we feel like we want to snack, because we are really hungry, not. Habit, but we're really hungry. Then there is something going on there with either the meal planning, what, what we're having on our plate, or maybe there is some kind of resistance. There's some kind of, you know, biochemistry bit out of kilter. Yeah. This is all so good what you're saying. We have so many comments here that people are, are, they're appreciating how you're saying, kind of throw away that glucose monitor for a moment. Oh. Because I often feel all this, this device culture, right? It's like I always need something outside of myself to tell me what's going on with me, and then you're constantly depending on the device and you go round and round. We talked to a sleep coach and it was really funny. She talked about. This person bragged how much REM sleep they were getting, and she said, that's actually abnormal. And, but he thought, oh, I'm, you know, I'm in this meeting. Look at this. Amazing. Anyway, so, so, so much good stuff here. One of the questions that I'm wondering about, a lot of people sort of look to like meal replacement products, like shakes and bars and you know, that kind of stuff. What are your thoughts on. So, you know, mat, it's, it's again, being, you know, it's about being practical as well, isn't it? Cuz some people will say, well, I can't, you know, I can't do this, or, so I just had just last week, couple of clients who do they d they, you know, no matter you can be blue in the face, they don't have time for breakfast. they're not gonna do a, you know, boil some eggs the night before either. And they will, they have a protein shake, so they make their own protein shake and they'll take it to work. So they are intermittent fasting and they'll have their protein shake at work. But it is what I mean, a lot of the meal substitutes aren't great, you know, because they will have, you know, things that aren't food colorings, preservatives, sweeteners, you know, I've got clients now, you know, we've, before again, when I trained it was called I b s and people would be put on FODMAPs diet. You know, there's a diet where you, you know what was it, fermented? It's, it was to do with different carbohydrates, really restrictive diet. Now they're calling it sibo, you know, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. So the bacteria should be down in your colon, and now it's suddenly traveled up to your small intestine. Now that those diets are, you know, so if somebody had sibo, yes, it's, it's, you have to, you know, we're looking. A, a therapeutic diet for a short while. And therapeutic. Meaning it is therapeutic. It's for a short while. It's not long-term. So, and meal substitutes and I have seen some clients end up getting SIBO from meal substitutes because they just have all sorts of That's fascinating. So I, I mean, I, again, if people are listening and they're not as familiar, so small intestinal bacterial over. Abnormal gut chemistry. Let's just break it down simply. People feel horrendous on it, right? And so could that's, so I see that as a way that people could, again, be the scientist with their body. Interesting. Have I started to use so many meals and shakes and bars and then do, does my gut not feel good? I, I'm just, I think that's really practical, honestly. It, it actually is. You know, you think why, so for example what's, you know, xylitol, so people are thinking, okay, can I use xylitol as a sweetener? Now xylitol is one of the no-nos on the FODMAP diet, and it, there's a reason for it because it's a sugar alcohol Now. You'll hear dent, you know, the more biological dentist say it's really good, you know, chewing gum to, to chew with xylitol after you've had a meal. But actually for some people they have xylitol. They'll tell you, they get gassy, they get bloated, or they get diarrhea because it is a sugar alcohol. But that to me already is. Says to me that there's something going on with their gut in the first place for them to, cuz you should be able to tolerate a bit of a bad thing for, you know, not forever and ever, but it's not like we are all kind of clean and green and, you know, we've, we float to, you know, float along in life. We all have a chocolates and what have you. But I do think it's just, again, what you just said, it's, it's your body. I mean, why would your. microbiome that's supposed to be way down in the colon, suddenly end up in the small intestine. There's something that's been going on well before it became symptomatic. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I'm wondering also, Segueing into something a little bit related. What are your thoughts on gluten free? Because it is that kind of picture of that sensitivity, something's going on with your body. And one of the questions that we had was is it worth going gluten free if you don't think you've got any sensitivity? So yeah. Thoughts on all that? Okay, I'm gonna write that cause I'm gonna forget that I always get carried away so I forget. So you're asking me about gluten free? So one thing about gluten free, okay, what. What I find, because I always say to clients who are gluten free and they've been gluten free for quite a while and they've been eating really, and they know if they have gluten, they will react or their psoriasis fla, you know, if they've got an autoimmune condition, I am one of those practitioners. I won't see if somebody's booking in with me and they've got an autoimmune condition. I say, right, are you prepared to give up gluten? If they say no, then I'm not their, I'm not their practitioner because I don't want to waste their time and I don't want them wasting money with me. Then maybe them need to see a health coach. You know, somebody who can work through the mindset and about what's going on there when actually, so if they've got some kind of an autoimmune condition, absolutely. No gluten. Now somebody might say, well, I've, you know, I, I can eat it, and I've got whatever. Not Crohn's, Crohn's, you know that you can't have gluten, but say if they've got Hashimotos. Now, as a nutritional therapist, we really do believe that autoimmune conditions stem from the gut. So if you can support the gut, if you can heal the gut, we can reduce the, the symptoms of the, might not completely cure it, but we can reduce the symptoms. Then there is, if somebody really wants to know you can do a gliadin antibody test. It's simple as that. Okay. If they really want to know, should they be avoiding gluten now? If somebody says to me, well, I gave up gluten for six months and I was completely clean. I didn't have any a gravy sauce when I went to for a pub lunch on a Sunday or something like that, and they don't notice any difference why, then why give it up? But I'm, but then I wouldn't suggest it every day either. Or always talk variety. You know, try and have variety. Cuz here, you know, the average, and I'm sure it's the same in the us, the average person will have wheat for breakfast, wheat for lunch, wheat for dinner. You know, breakfast is like jam on toast or some quick cereal. And then breakfast will be a Sam lunch will be a sandwich, which is wheat. And then dinner might be, So, you know, so that, that is really overtaxing, you know, we're, we're just becoming this sort of, you know, what is it? The beige, beige diet. But I think if you don't, you know, why, why starve yourself or deplete, you know, deprive yourself of something that you might enjoy once in a while if you don't have an autoimmune condition and you don't have the, the easiest way to get antibody test done. If that was the. Interesting. So basically the message is if you aren't aware of having an autoimmune condition or some kind of sensitivity that's been basically clarified through a test, then maybe don't do it unless you, you feel terrible afterwards. Yeah. You know, also, Kim, really mindful because I think sometimes we can, we can turn something into like a religion, you know, and I just think. I just think it's so unhealthy and be, I think because of having been in this industry for 22 years and I, you know, I do get, sometimes I get doctors well, or the, their secretaries will send me an email or write me a letter and it's just like, you have sold my client to do this and I don't, you know, and I just think, I never tell any client to do this. And I'll make, and even when I write a report, I'll say, suggest or recommend and see how you feel. Try it out. Because really we, no, even a doctor shouldn't be able to tell us what to do. This is at the end of the day, we, we are like, I like that word. The scientists, you know, we are our own. This, we live in this body. we should know how I respond to a certain thing versus somebody else. But I do feel that sometimes when we do these, you know, kind of di they've become a bit become a bit legalistic over them. Yes, absolutely. I, I started training in my career in this world in 2006, and I think over that time I've seen so many different changes like you've been talking about, and I completely agree. I almost think that it becomes like a religion and it almost becomes like a. Diet with so many different restrictions that we put on supposedly for health. And it wasn't until I found the mindset coaching that it kind of clicked and I was like, oh wow. I've been using the gluten-free and the paleo and the, you know, food allergies and all this stuff, you know, to try and like change my body for, supposedly for health. Yeah. But there's so much built in like limiting beliefs in there around food. Permeated, I think, into our industry, into the wellness and wellbeing industry. You know, it's, and I think, you know what it, it's so liberating. To actually just, you know, so I'm, I'm hungry, I'm gonna put together a lunch together and not actually start, you know, kind of stressing over it. And I saw that with, you know, with, with, when I did the work with, you know, women with eating disorders, it was, for me, it was one of the greatest things I did because it was eye-opening. It's something that I hadn't experienced myself and I still haven't, I mean, I've gained weight. Menopause is, is not kind, you know, but yeah, I'm, but I still, I'm trying to understand right, what happens, what. What happens with the, what happens to progesterone Angen. Okay. So it's not, I'm not hating myself, it's just like, wow, you know, this, this is actually real. You hear about it before you get there. But when you get this like, oh my gosh. And I just think it's, but it's having that healthy attitude because what is it that we're also reading? You know, are we, you know, cuz a lot of the, you know, when I go shopping and sometimes we go to, there's a shop here called Marks and Spencer's. But as you get. the cashier, you know, to pay. And I have a good chat with the guy who's there, I've known him for a while now, but all the magazines on my right hand side. And I always look at the front page and I'm thinking to myself, why would I ever read any of these? Why would I even pay for this? Cuz all this is gonna tell me is how fat I am, how thin I am, how brown I am, or how white I am. Whatever. It's never I can, I don't think I'd ever read any of those and feel like, oh, I love myself. You know, and I think it's, it's not just food, it's also our diet of our, you know what we are reading the books we read, the TV we watch the people, we listen to our friendship circle. You know, I think it's everything. It's not just the food on our plate, you know, cuz that's, It, it's beyond that, you know, talk about sleep. Not just sleep, you know, in the morning. How do we wake up? What do we do? First thing in the morning said that, you know, and you've probably heard so many people say this first thing is if you can, and especially when the sun is shining here, get out, but is to get sunlight on you. You know, just get natural daylight before you touch your phone, before you do anything else. And that helps your, you know, your body regulate the circadian rhythm for the next day, you know, for the day, sets you up for the day and as if you just start with, start with your morning routine. If everything else falls to pot, you know, your b your breakfast, your lunch, your dinner, it's all gone to shambles and you've binged eat on a Mars bar or whatever it is. I don't know what you have it. You know, my husband loves my husband's American. He loves Reese's. He used to bring them over from the US Bong Reese. At least in the morning to start with one thing. Mm-hmm. that's, and I think for me, the morning is the biggest thing for me. If I can start off with the morning, well then whatever comes in the day, I feel like I've, I've, you know filled up with goodness to try and deal with it. Whatever hits me the rest of the day. But I couldn't do it the other way around. Evening, I'm done. I'm done by the. Oh, interesting. I love what you're saying. It's about the whole picture. It's about the, you know, the emotional side, the mental wellbeing, all of that. One of the massive topics, and you've touched on this a little bit with all the talk of hormones, is hormones. A lot of women in our community talk about hormones, ask about hormones. So I'm wondering what is your take on, how do you. The ghrelin, the leptin, the hunger hormones. You kind of touched on it before with the resistance training, but is there anything we can do more with food and nutrition to support that? Yeah. Do you know Carrie, that's, it's a, again, these are all fantastic questions. It's just like, gosh, I could talk for days, but. You, you know it and it and the, and I say this all the time with the students cuz they said they got by by year two, end of year two, they're just like, oh my gosh, I couldn't hear another lecture on blood sugar balancing. But that is, that is so key because once we can balance our blood sugar, We can get those leptins grilling, you know, grilling, I call it, it's the G, it's the grumbling hormone. Sometimes we're not even hungry, you know, it's just that we've got use the, oh, okay, my stomach's making noises. I need to go and eat, but are you really hungry? And those in itself, one is. you know, all ti it always comes back down to blood sugar balance. If cuz blood sugar, you know, insulin, insulin is important. We need it. So it's not like we don't want any insulin in our bloodstream, but it's, it's that whole, you know, the whole thing now, but everything's inflammatory. Every condition is the root cause. It's blood sugar, then it's inflammation and it's just like, okay. So then you think. Once we can balance our blood sugar, and this is not just diet related, it's also our thoughts. You know, the thought of, okay, catastrophizing that will, that will get the corsol adrenaline going. That will get your blood sugar going up and down. So what you, you know what you do now with the mindset, the coaching. You know I said that, I was talking to a friend this morning, she's a health coach. She's amazing. She's absolutely amazing and I will call her sometimes. So I need a dose of you right now. And Carrie, I will laugh. I'll say I need to make a remedy of her, like, you know, 10 remedy of with her name on it because you know, when I've spoken to her and I've just had somebody. just listen to my rant or whatever it is. And I know in my head it's just a rant. It's temporary. Oh, the magic afterwards, you know, and I know I'm just, it's, it's catastrophizing and it's just a pattern. But I think that we do the same, not just with food, but our sleeping. Our exercise and exercise doesn't have to be, you have to go to a gym and do all those kettle bells and you know, it's just go for a walk. You know? Now they're showing the research, they, which makes me laugh cuz in Iver. They've always said, go for a walk after a meal. It actually, there's a word for it and I can't remember it now, in in Iver medicine, but now they've shown that if you go for a 15 minute walk after your meal, then like I do an hour walk in the morning with the dog. It's so much better to do two lots of 15 minute walks than one walk of 45 minutes. You know? It's, and that helps regulate your blood sugar after a meal. Yeah. 15 minutes. It's easy. It can be really easy. Yeah. And what you said about grine, leptin, it all ties in to the blood sugar balancing as well. It's, I think we've, we are getting sidetracked by looking at all these other, and they're very, you know, they're enticing, they're fancy, they're trendy, but actually, it always comes down to blood sugar balancing, and it's not. And, and I, I do want to emphasize that blood sugar balancing isn't just about the food on our plate. It's also what, you know, how are we thinking What's happened that morning? You know, you get a phone call from school, your child's just hit his head and he is gotta go to a and e. Gosh, that's gonna set up the blood. You know, the whole, yo-yo, you know, your child is teething and screaming and you want to save them. So much going on in our lives isn't there? That food shouldn't really be the, the, the, the, the center. of our focus. Yeah. That's so good. I like how you just made it simple. And so I wonder kind of, you know, being conscious of time here, do you think there's maybe like two top tips that you would give if someone's working on nutrition or just supporting themselves better? What do you find to be the most helpful for people? So I, I am really into whether you just get, get out in nature, whether it's a walk and although I know that's not food-based, but it really does so much benefit for the metabolism. And I was listening to a podcast yesterday. They, they're talking something about serotonin and walking where there's greenery. And so I was thinking, wow, yeah, I totally get that. Cuz who wants to go for a walk around, you know, in Manhattan with big buildings and all that hustle and bustle, any, you know, I'm sure anybody would choose greenery or by the sea. So anything that's nature that gets you just walking. So that's one thing. And the other thing I'd say for me is, is some kind of a routine in the morning. You know that routine doesn't have to be food-based. It could just be right When I wake up in the morning, the first thing I'm gonna do is just go outside with my herbal tea and stand in the garden with my coat on, you know, and my pajamas underneath. It's just something to set you up for the day. Cuz in the morning I really believe, you know, when the co, our court is all spikes in the morning, it's called the cortisol awakening response. If you can have that healthy spike in the morning, it actually reduces the likelihood of autoimmune. So and how many people don't do that? How many people are still lying in bed and they get their mobile phone out? You know, I just, I don't even have my phone now next to my, anywhere in my bedroom because I know if I need to go and get it, have to get up and have to go downstairs to go and get it. But if you can set up your day and ride that cortisol spike, which is a protein-based breakfast going out in nature, getting sun natural daylight, that also triggers that cortis. Spike in the morning, and then during the day, the quarter is supposed to come down very slowly, and then in the evening, by midnight it's supposed to be literally not there, and your melatonin kicks in, which is M for moon melatonin, and it's the, it goes, it's the other way around. I love that, you know, all of your tips are so holistic. It's like, no, it's not just about the food. We don't have to focus on the food because I know that we've had some comments here on the members community, and they're talking about, you know, how long am I gonna have to. Focus on this. I spend so much mental energy, it's not just about the food. So I love that, you know, even though you're a nutritional therapist, you're like, actually we've gotta think more about the movement, we've gotta think about the sunlight, all of that. So do you know what? I feel like we could talk to you for hours. You know, you are fascinating. You have such great perspective and you know, we've had so many comments and I'm sorry that we haven't got to them all. We've just run out of time. So, you know, I hope that can get some of them answered perhaps another time. But before we wrap up, Kush, if anyone is curious about your work, if anyone is wondering, you know, who is, who is Kush, you know, what does she do, when can they find out more about you and what do you do? Yeah, sure. So, so for I was gonna say there's two places you can go to. The first one is actually I have a very active Facebook page. It's open to everybody. I'm not in a group. I got fed up of doing a group. So for me it's just, I like to be free. I like this, you know, the whole freedom thing. So it's Kush, mark, pH Dr. Kushma, PhD is my Facebook page, and I regularly blog on there, poster blog on there nearly every, every day. The other one is my website. So if you, you know, I've got an ebook, which is actually years ago. This is when my first son was my second son was born, he's now 16. When he was. just under one. I published that as a book paperback and now it says an ebook cause I'd updated it. It's called Fat Doesn't Make You Fat. And that title was 16 years ago. And I've kept it still, and I know Dr. Mark Hyman came out with some similar title later on. But that is all about balancing blood sugar and your adrenals and the hot, the life about the lifestyle thing. And that book, I always say, you know, it's, it's a really good starting. And then like a, you know, sort of a, a foundation and if you want to have a look at that. But otherwise, yeah, you can reach me at the all my details on my website, which is ww dot kush mark.com. Yeah. Wonderful that. And by the way, that book is fantastic. I, that's how I think I connected with you first up cause I'd heard about you, we studied at the same college for homeopathy and then I remember you were doing a lecture talking about fat doesn't make you fat, I think it was or, and I got the book and I was like, this is amazing. And then I came to your talk, I don't know if you remember this, it was so long ago. And then that's how you know if you are interested in all of this, I would highly recommend just going and downloading that ebook. It is really, really fantastic. Thank you Carrie. Yeah. But otherwise, yeah, I could act Definitely. I was gonna say, I'm glad you know, it's great what you're doing cuz I find that as nutritional therapy, some of us are trained very much about, all about food functional tests and then we focus on food and supplements. And it's, it's not, it really we, you know, I do think it's slowly changing now. Health coaching is becoming bigger here as well in the uk. Mm-hmm. But I think the whole coaching aspect is so important because some people get, you know, I get clients who come in with back, you know, I had one client with. And you won't, but 36 bottles of supplements. Yeah. And had spent, and this is a US client and had spent thousands on all sorts of functional tests, and yet nobody sat down and just said to them, how are you? And I just said, how are you feeling? And she burst out crying. Yeah. You know this, this is the thing. I'm glad you bring this up. And by the way, everyone do whatever you need to do. We're not saying to not see, to not get all the tests and all the supplements and all the things. Yeah, you do what works for you. But it's like, but then you have to check in. Like I always say with patients in the office, I say, you try that for 30 days and then we see how you feel. This is not, we just stick it on autopilot and then you're on it for 50 years. That's, that's not how this works. So, I'm so grateful that you got to come on. We're gonna put all the links to everything that you talked about in the show notes, so no one needs to worry about writing things down right now. And just thank you so much for your time. You are just a You're welcome. You're welcome. Incredible. Thank you for having me. And thanks everybody for listening. Thank you so much. Speak to you soon. Bye. Bye.