From Courtroom, To Rock Bottom; to Becoming.a Pastor

What happens when a brilliant legal career collides with a hidden addiction and a fear of failure that won’t let go? Our guest, former attorney and longtime pastor James W. Smith, takes us inside the spiral from weekend poker to a desperate bank robbery—and the surprising path back through accountability, faith, and service. It’s a raw, human story that moves from a dye pack exploding in a getaway car to quiet hours in a mental health ward where a new life began to take shape.

We talk about the difference between image and integrity, and how the decision to plead guilty became a turning point rather than an ending. James shares how humility was forged bagging groceries and pumping gas after release, how seminary first closed the door and then opened it, and how a historic church embraced his leadership for over three decades. He also explains his 11 years as an approved Continuing Legal Education sponsor teaching ethics, mental health, and substance use to attorneys across North Carolina—proof that credibility can be rebuilt when character leads.

James’s books—Deal By Me: Golden Opportunity Blown and Deal By Me, Second Edition: A Self-Evaluation—trace the rise, fall, and rebuild with uncommon honesty. His most striking insight: the engine under his worst decisions wasn’t a lifelong compulsion, but a deep fear of failure that pushed him to “fix” the unfixable. From practical counsel on staying focused and staying ethical to a moving tribute to a mother’s tough love, this conversation offers hard-won wisdom for anyone wrestling with addiction, shame, or a second act that feels out of reach.

If this story resonates, share it with a friend, follow the show, and leave a review. Your support helps more people find real accounts of redemption, resilience, and the everyday choices that change a life.

Transcript

From Attorney To Bank Robber

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me. Episode of the Doors Tours. So this episode is sponsored by the Adu Audio Group, which inspires and uplifts for discussion, testimonies, and teachings, equipping listeners for meaningful conversations. On today's episode we have King Smith who is a former practicing attorney, former compulsive gambler, ex-offender who served five years in federal correctional institution of armed bank robbery, a former North Carolina State Bar abused sponsor of continuing legal education CLE for 11 years. He's a retired pastor of an historical missionary Baptist church in Durham County, North Carolina, where he served for almost 32 years. He is also also free but Deal by Me Golden Opportunity Bloom. Deal by me second edition. The third one is a self-evaluation. And come let us reason together. He's married and has have two golden things.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Thank you so much for coming the show today. Thank you so very much, Darcy, for having me. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

I want to ask you, you know, come out, you know, with this question first. How did you go from a practicing attorney to a bank robber?

SPEAKER_00 2:29

That's a very good question, uh Darcy. I I haven't ha asked me quite like that, so really I appreciate that. Like I say, it's a very interesting question, and I'm gonna try to answer it this way. You know, when you get involved with certain things, and I had gotten involved in poker, playing poker. I I I started right after I started practicing law with other lawyers and bondsmen and barbers in the area, all professional people. And I got to the point where we were doing it every weekend. I was loving it, but I knew when to help fold, I knew when to hold. And, you know, won money, I lost money. But uh I was always able to borrow money from my friends. They were able to borrow money from me. So if I lost$1,500, I knew when to get up. If one,$15,000,$2,000, I could go home. I knew how to do that. Eventually the the poker game got to be love more than anything else. And got to the point where I didn't know how to get up or didn't want to get up. And I went further and hole, further in the hole, further in the hole, lost properties, lost my home, lost my wife for five years, and when I knew anything, I had hit rock bottom. And of course, I think that that experience got me to thinking, uh, how do I get here? And of course, I got depressed. I uh one morning got up and went to the office. First, I got my uh 22 caliber pistol, went to the office, and sat there and was really to the point of committing suicide. And uh I'm an only child to sing a mom, and I started thinking about my mom, and that kind of kept me from doing that. I eventually kind of left the office and started riding around, and I got on 85 and thought about suicide again. As a matter of fact, letting the truck hit me in the back, uh just stopping abruptly. Uh, but then I thought I might be maim and I didn't want to get in that position, so uh I kind of abandoned the situation. And I ended up in a little town called Oxford, North Carolina, at a restaurant and was eating because it was about 10, 30, 11 o'clock in the morning. And uh while I was eating, I looked out the window and I saw the CCB uh bank. That's the Central Carolina Bank at the time. And my mind just started roping. You know, if I could just get in and get me about$50,000,$100,000, I could pay off all my debts to everybody, and I could go back, you know, like nothing had happened, and it would be all over. It's crazy thinking now. So don't think I understand how stupid that is in hindsight. But that's what happened. And I went through some changes. It was hard to do with what I did now, you know, because I rode around in the city, rode around in the city, was just thinking about it and thinking about it. And then all of a sudden I just said, hit with it. You know, get caught or not, pull right up to the bank door, ran in and asked for the money, and I came out. That's how I got from a lawyer to robbing a bank.

The Heist, Escape, And Surrender

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Yeah. Do you recall at this point what did you come out with as far as the money goes once you robbed that bank? And how did we end up getting caught?

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Well, the way I uh when I came out, I didn't know how much money I had at the time. Uh but it the experience was so interesting because uh I had left the bank and went for about maybe a half a mile, and uh I got stopped by a uh police officer. And you have to understand that I had run for district court judge. I was well known in the five county area. Uh everybody knew me, all the police officers knew me, so he stopped me. I I uh just uh first of all, let me get before that stop. Uh the money had the bag had uh obviously what you call one of his dye in it, so it exploded. So I stopped and pulled to the side, took the bag out, threw the bag out across the field because it was so much fume in the in the car. And I just sat there for a while. And while sitting there, the police officer came up, and obviously he could see me halfway crying and, you know, and he asked me what was wrong. I said, uh, I'm okay. And he said, You sure? I said, Yeah, I'm fine. And he just told me to go ahead on. He said, Okay, we'll go ahead on, because he knew me, you know. Okay, go ahead on. I went on, and I went probably about another half a mile, uh, maybe a little less, and I got stopped again by a highway patrol. And uh he sat in the back waiting for a while, finally got out. I I got out of the car and was uh standing at the back. And of course, uh he finally got out and came up, was coming up toward me when the same police officer who had stopped me before came by and said, I just stopped him, he's okay. And so he told me, get it back in the car. I said, okay, go ahead on. And I left that tank. Now, what was interesting about this, because I realized then that, you know, they knew who it was, that uh they knew it was me. And so I went straight to my former partner's office and and called a law lawyer, law friend, told what had happened, told my uh receptionist, my former secretary, uh, what had happened. Nobody could believe it. And of course, by the time my lawyer friend came up, uh called a couple of my other friends, a little doctor who came over to examine me. And by that time, a swarm of uh officers came in, wanted to know if I was there. They said yes, and that I was ready to turn myself in. And so that's what happened. I turned myself in, and of course they put me under a$100,000 bar.

Mental Health Evaluation And Awakening

SPEAKER_01 9:48

They came to you for 15 years, and then you went to, you know, you got out after five. What was that experience like? And did, you know, did faith play a role during that time, or was that later in life when faith finally came into you know being a part of your of your life?

Calling To Ministry And Sentencing

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Okay. Well, I've always been a Christian. Uh I was a my mom was very dedicated, committed Christian. Took me to church every Sunday school, so I knew about church work. Um and of course, even when I was playing poker, I knew my mom liked to go to church. She wasn't driving. I would even come back on Sundays to take her to church and then go back to the poker game. That's how uh, you know, I committed my mom was. But after uh I was placed in a$100,000 bond, uh, I was sent to, Judge sent me to the Mental Hospital, Dorothy Dixon Mental Hospital, for a six week observation. I guess you can understand that. Here's this prominent lawyer uh in the area and who's committed this crime, something had to be wrong with him. So they sent me to the middle hospital for six weeks' observation. It was during this three weeks that I stayed there that I really my faith began to kick in. And uh I started thinking about how in the world did I get here? You know, how did I allow myself to do what I did? And uh I made commitments then that look, uh all the stuff I was doing is over with. I'm finished with it. I'm finished with playing poker, all the crazy stuff I was doing, the heavy drinking, the womanite, everything you could possibly think of, I'm finished with it. And I made that commitment while there in the middle hospital. So when I got out, I stayed with it. Nothing changed me. I was the same person, and uh I had about six months while I was out that I was really reflecting. I was had people praying for me. I went to church uh to almost everything, prayer meetings, because I was really, really into it. And I felt a call uh to ministry. But in the missionary Baptist Church, uh, you have to do what we call an initial sermon. And so I talked to my mom about it, and she said, Well, you need to talk with your pastor. So I went and talked with my pastor probably about a month prior to uh my going in for sentencing. And he said to me, said, Well, you know, he talked with me. We had a nice long talk, and he said, Well, now if you really feel like the Lord has is calling you, you need to go out on and do your initial sermon. So I told him, I said, no, I don't want to do the initial sermon now. I'd rather wait until I get out because I don't want people to think that I'm going through all of this to try to get my sentence reduced or to get out of it. My mind had been made up, even when I was at the middle hospital. I wanted to get everything behind me. So I was pleading guilty. I wasn't fighting anything. I wanted to just get it over with because I knew where I was going afterwards that my life was going to be totally different. And so he says, the Lord might have something for you to do while you're confined. And uh he said, so I would go on and accept this, accept it, go out on the initial sermon. And so he set up a date for me uh at the church. I preached on that Sunday, first Sunday in January 1982. The Monday following that Sunday, I went to court in Fayetteville, North Carolina, federal court, received my 15-year sentence. I was fine. I had no problem whatsoever. I just knew I was gonna go in because at that time they said that if you did one-third of your time and you had good behavior, then you could get out. So I knew I wasn't gonna do it in more than five years. I already knew it, you know, because I I won't go get into any trouble. I wasn't gonna do anything, and I wanted to get it behind me, and that's what I did.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Yeah. Now we know that people while they're in jail, you know, if um they can learn law and they can study law, but I'm assuming now that you are are you what's your um what what are you under? Are you are you considered a convicted felon? Is it misdemeanor? What is what are what is it what was it as far as that goes?

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Well, uh obviously uh I'm a convicted felon. Okay. Uh, but uh I had all of that uh taken care of by the clerk when I got out. Uh after I finished my parole, uh I was under, you know, I got out five years, so ordinarily you would have uh an additional ten years on parole. Okay. But I didn't have I didn't do an additional ten years on parole. I did only two years, and the probation officer uh terminated my uh parole or uh whatever you were, and so I didn't have to uh serve any more time on parole. So after I got the parole over, uh the clerk of court, uh uh I don't know what the word you would call it right at this point. I'm not thinking, but anyway, signed an order, granted me my full cit citizenship back. So I was able to vote. I've been voted, I can do everything that you uh talk about doing, even though I might still have the status of a convicted felon, but I don't have that problem.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Are you are you able to study more? Did you want to go back into doing that or are you not able to?

Life After Prison And Restored Rights

Building A New Path With CLE Work

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Well, I uh never really thought that I want to really go back into oh, I consider it one time, and I uh made an application, but in the process, they asked so many questions about what you did and what have you. And as I was getting into the process, I just didn't want to rehash all of that stuff again. Okay. So I just abandoned it. But I did decide that I wanted to share my story and do some work with lawyers across the state. So that's how when you said that I did continual legal education. How that came about, uh, I was in uh Henderson, North Carolina, and one of my law friends uh told me that he said, Smitty, you have a great story. Lawyers would like to hear about your story, you know. And he said, why don't you try to become a sponsor of continued local education for the North Carolina State Bar? And he said, as one of the person who was doing it who's been disbarred, and um I I didn't know the person, I knew of him, and he said he's doing a great job and doing really good. And so I told him, I said, well, um, his crime is not violent. You know, my crime was violent, so I didn't think that the bar would allow me to do it. And I came home and talked to my wife now of, as a matter of fact, Julie would be 35 years if we would have been married, and said, talk with her about it. She said, Well, you don't have your license anyway, so you got to lose. And so I uh uh sent my information in, not sent my information in. I first talked with the bar, and they asked me, had I talked with Jim Blackburn, that's the other person who was disbarred. And I told them no. So they asked me, well, you might want to talk with him. So I I did. I talked with Jim, and he told me what to do. I prepared paperwork like he told me to do, send it into the bar. And they told me they would be getting in touch with me within the next week or two. I think about three weeks. And of course, at the end of that third week, I ain't heard anything from them. I thought they would, you know, was probably denying me. But I started thinking about it, and I said, hmm, oh, they don't have a good picture of me. So they see this African-American uh person who had robbed a bank, and that's just not a good picture. So I decided that I was gonna get dressed, you know, put on my three-piece suit, take a shave, got good haircut, and all that stuff, and I was looking dapper like I did when I was when I was practic when I was practicing law. And so I went over to the state bar office and I asked them, I was in Raleigh, I asked them, can I talk with somebody in the uh Conchieving Legal Education Department? And so that they said, yeah. So they called uh up there, and this uh lady came down, and when she came down, I could tell then that her whole demeanor had changed when she looked over and saw me. And she came over, she said, Dr. Sniff, she said, uh, you will hear something from us within the next uh three to five days. Uh I said, okay, thank you. Then the next three to five days, I got this letter saying, uh, congratulations, you've been approved as a sponsor of Continual Legal Education. I talked to Continued Legal Education, Ethics, Mental Health, and Substitution to all the lawyers, black, quiet, all of them across the state for 11 years. I would still be doing it right now had it not been for COVID. But when COVID came in, you know, I didn't want to continue to travel and go to different offices. But if I had been aware of Zoom like I am now, I would still be doing it, but uh I I left when COVID came in. But I had been doing it for 11 years. So that that was my connection with the North Carolina State Bar. So they respected me. Uh but going back through the process, I just didn't want to have to rehash all of the ugly stuff that I did, and obviously they require you to go and ask you step by step, this and that. And I just didn't feel like doing that.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

How did you get into I mean you talked a little bit about it before you went into prison? When you came out, how did you get started again in ministry and did the way people view you, did they how how was that? What was that like?

Seminary, Pastoring, And Long Tenure

Marriage Story And Family

SPEAKER_00 21:21

You know, I that's a good question. Very good question. I I I always felt like I had pretty good respect. Most of the time, I think it was people just not understanding. They thought something had to have happened. You know, I'm not boasting, but I had a a very, very good reputation as a lawyer. You know, I I tried rape cases, murder cases, you know. I so my reputation was was really, really good. I was just into gambling, you know, at the time. And so that's what uh uh I gather whenever anybody would talk to me. Some people would say to me, lawyer, we never blame you. You know, we blame those older uh uh guys that you were were playing with, you know. You were young, and I was, I was the youngest of the crowd, you know. They should have helped you and should have just kind of been more of a mentor to you. So nobody never really uh showed some kind of disdain for uh what I had done. Um but I came out when I first came out and went to the halfway house, you had to have a job. So the next day I got up and went to the courthouse here in Durham, where I'm living now, went to the courthouse, and I saw one of the most uh famous lawyers, criminal lawyers, who I had known and who knew me worked very well, uh, in the courthouse. And I said, I went to him, I said, Betty, we we his name was C.C. Buddy Malone. I said, I said, Betty, you know, I need a job. I said, I uh, you know, I gotta have a job to stay where I am. And he told me to come out the next day. I went by the office the next day, and he gave me a job on the spot. Okay, so I was working as a law clerk in the law office for uh six, uh, yeah, it was a good six years. And during that process, uh I decided that I would make application because I was my ministry was still on my heart, I would make application to uh seminary, and so I did. Uh applied to Southeastern uh Theological Seminary, and they didn't accept me. Uh and of course uh it bothered me a little bit because I thought if anybody would understand and give me a chance, it would be a seminary. But I I didn't let it stop me. I applied the next semester, and the next semester they accepted me. Okay, so that was a good, uh I always tell people, you know, you can never give up, you know, just hang in there and keep doing what you know you ought to be doing. And uh in the process, uh, my seminary studies, uh church became available here in in Durham, and there were, you know, some people who knew folks in the church who knew me and uh who just was very impressed with what I was doing. And they recommended me to the church. Uh and of course, they called me at the church. Uh it was something that folks really couldn't understand, you know, how you, you know, a missionary Baptist church got a bank robber as their pastor, you know. But that was what I was doing, and I stayed there for 32 years. Uh good congregation. As a matter of fact, I talked to members now, you know, because I I retired. I was going to retire after after 30 years, but COVID came in, and when COVID came in, they asked me to stay on, you know, to work through this COE thing with them. And so that's really I stayed for 32. And uh I retired 22, 2022. And and of course, I knew I was going to be retiring, so what I did about six months before is when I decided I wanted to do a podcast because I wanted to keep my ministry going, you know, encouraging, inspiring, and transforming. So uh I started my podcast uh about six or seven months before I retired. And of course, retired and stayed retired, but I was having fun, was called a preach at different churches, you know. So I was staying busy at least about twice a month, one or twice a month. And uh I was doing that for about seven months, and then my home church lost uh her pastor Sutterly, six or seven years old, with a heart attack. And they called me to come down and help them out, and I thought I would be down there for about you know three to six months. Uh but June, I'll be there two years. So that's yeah, so that's where how I am now still there now. So how did you meet your wife? You're asking some really good questions. Very interesting questions. Some questions, you know, I'm constantly on uh podcast, and some of the questions you've asked me, I have I have to haven't had asked, and this is awesome. Uh my my wife, my present wife, was married to a minister. Unfortunately, he passed with a heart attack. Pastor in the church, had been in the church for about two years, and preached, went home, had a heart attack, and they rushed him to the hospital and he didn't make it. Uh and of course I had seen them before because he was the pastor in the area. And uh they had called another pastor, but the pastor couldn't come to the church until after Christmas. And so they asked me if I would come and uh preached on a Sunday, I think it was one Sunday, I don't know it was the first Sunday or the last Sunday in December. Uh and uh I told him yeah. And so when I came to the church uh that he was pastoring, uh his wife was there. She was there, you know, uh, who is with her. And of course I saw her out in the congregation, never said anything to her, but very beautiful, attractive lady, really kind. And so when I got home uh after the service, uh, well, she came up to me during the service. Well, you know, everybody was congratulating me on the messages or what have you. And uh she congratulated me and great job. And so when I got home, I just called and I said, uh, saw you today, and I was just checking on you, one mixing you were doing okay or what have you. And that kind of started our conversation, and then I started working with a lawyer in the hometown who uh and his secretary knew her very well. She was she was a teacher. And so I asked her, I said, how I get to talk to my wife's name is Barbara, and your friend Barbara. And the secretary laughed and she said, Well, Spinny, you do just like you've been doing with all the other women. She knew how I was. And so I said, You don't think I'm I think I'm gonna send out some some some uh flowers. So I bought a bouquet of flowers and sent it to the school and had on there uh guess who. Didn't have a name on it, said guess who. And then I said, uh, for further information, contact Loretta. Well, Loretta was the person who was a friend of hers. And so when she got the flowers, she came right by the office and uh where we work in, because Loretta was there and said, Loretta, who just sent me these flowers? And Loretta said, he's right over in the office. So that's how that's how our conversation started. Okay. And as a matter of fact, we were married uh about six, seven months after we met.

Writing The First And Second Books

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

And you said you you've been you're gonna be married, what, 36 years now?

SPEAKER_00 30:00

35 years in July, yeah, July.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Nice, that's awesome. And how do you get to writing your book because we get ready to wind down here? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Well, the first book that I wrote, uh, Deal by Me and Golden Opportunity Blown, um, the subject, Deal by Me came from my poker plan, you know, a card game. When you don't want your your next hand, you said deal by me. Okay. So that's where that's why the title came from. The Golden Opportunity Blown came from actually uh losing my law practice. Okay, so that's my first book. I started writing this not to be a book. It was thurby for me when I was confined. I started writing, you know, how things happened to me, what I was going through, you know, how the poker was was, what happened when I was at the poker games and this type of stuff. I did all of this up until my law practice, you know, running for district court judge and all this type of stuff. And I had just written all this down because it was just therapy. And I was just trying to pull things together, pull things together. And so when I knew anything, I had written probably about 300 and 300 to 400 pages of just handwriting. And I when I got out, I had it all. And some people would come by, the house would talk to me. I said, you know, I've written a whole bit and paper over here with stuff. And they said, Well, they say, are you gonna try to publish it? I said, no, I just was writing the information down. They said, Look, you need to publish that. You need to get your book. So then I turned around and I said, Well, maybe so. So I just started, uh I had it all written out and handwritten out. So I got on the computer and just started typing it, pulling it together, type form. And um it started getting pretty good. And uh I had a few people to read it, we made some for grammar arrows and all this type of stuff. And then after we've I think I had about 200 some pages, and uh they say you need to go out and try to see if you can get this published, and I did. That's what got my first book. The uh that was and the first book has been done probably, let's see, maybe about 20 years ago. Yeah, about 20 years ago. Uh, but then my second book, I wrote that during COVID. And that was uh interesting. I don't know if I would have written that book had I not had this experience, but I called over to a gambler anonymous nonprofit to ask if I could come in and speak to the guys because I thought because of my experience, I could share some good information to them. And the director asked me if I was still a compulsive gambler. I told him, no, I don't gamble, period. All that's behind me, I'm finished with it. And he said to me, Well, I don't know if the guys would appreciate your coming, because we believe that once a compulsive gambler, always a compulsive gambler. Well, I knew that was not me. I knew that was not, I just knew it. And so during my second book, during COVID, I started reflecting on all of it. And the reason I wrote the second book, because I came to the conclusion, my second book is entitled Deal by Me, Second Edition, a self-evaluation, because I wanted to do a self-evaluation and really just talk about what I'm dealing with and trying to come to some conclusion in my life. And I came to the conclusion that I was not a compulsive gambler, but that I really was afraid to fail. Okay. I had been this awesome attorney, uh, the uh first and only African-American lawyer to practice in my hometown, the youngest African-American practicing in the state of North Carolina at the time. A very good lawyer, people were calling me, so I know that everybody would say that. Uh, and I didn't want to fail. I thought I could recoup and just uh pull it all back together. Crazy talking now. I know it's stupid, but I'm just telling you how I was thinking. Right. And so that's how I wrote the second book.

Wisdom On Focus, Ethics, And Humility

SPEAKER_01 34:47

What can encourage me or a word of wisdom, you know, what however you want to say it, you would say to my audience that may be listening, that may be dealing with gambling, that may be convicted, felling, or you know, maybe may have those thoughts of, hey, I'm then go out and do this or do that. Or maybe even those that have a past and and are thinking about going into ministry and you know, then they're like, well, they're nothing will hit me, you know.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Well, well, I let me say this to you. When I got out, my mom told me one thing. She said, son, you can go and lie down in the ditch if you want to. People just gonna come by and kick more dirt on you. She said, you can um go and rub your head in the sand. Folk won't just come and push your head further into the sand. But if you would get out of the ditch, take your head out of the sand, some of these same folks would give you a helping hand. I took that to heart, that she said to me, I never put my stuff in the ditch. I just got out and started doing what I needed to do. And some of the things that I I I I did, I tried to practice more humility because I realized that that was important. You know, I I didn't share this with you, but when I came from the mental hospital, I didn't have a job. The six months before I was sentenced, I didn't know what I was gonna do. I had a friend who had a service station, allowed me to work at the service station, pumping gas, and washing windshield. I had a friend who, county commissioner, who owned a supermarket. He gave me a job, not what you think it would be, but I was working behind the cashier, bagging groceries and walking groceries out to my cars. In both of those situations, I was confronted with former clients, family members, friends. It taught me a lesson in humility. I thought I was up on top of the mountain, but now I'm doing these little minor things. So I learned a lesson of humility. That's another thing you need to keep in mind. You always got to confront the source. You need to accept responsibility for your action. Always believe in your mind that the darkest hour is just before dawn. So there are some things that you can uh kind of put into practice. Now, one, I always leave two things that I think are the most important thing, and I'll leave it with you. I tell people always stay focused. I lost my focus. Stay focused. No, uh look, don't lose your focus. And I tell people to stay ethical. If you can stay ethical, that's that deals with your honesty, your integrity, your reputation, your character. If you can keep those things intact, you'll be just fine.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Amen. Well, again, thank you so much for coming on the show today. We greatly appreciate having you.

Where To Find The Books And Closing

SPEAKER_00 38:18

I appreciate you having me. And people can find your book on Amazon? On Amazon. They can find all of them on Amazon. They just have to put in the name of the book and my name. If you just put in my name, James W. Smith. James W. Smith, because a lot of James Smith. James W. Smith, and uh the books will come up. Okay. All right. Thank you so very much.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Guys and girls, thank you so much for coming on the show and for listening to Kings the Story today. Please go and be encouraged by this episode again. Please go and like and check out my episodes on the Dorsey Rush Show.com. And please go and like and follow Auduri Audio Group on Spotify and Apple Podcast and share with you. And even reach out for the um audari at info aturiaudio.org. Thanks, have a great day, and until next time. God bless. Bye bye.