Heroes, Villians and the Drama Triangle

What if the roles we play in our relationships — the hero, the villain, the victim — were keeping us stuck in cycles of disempowerment? 

In this episode of Faark The Shoulds, QuantiPapa McGill and QuantiMama Jodi get right into the heart of the drama triangle and how these roles shape our connections and self-perception. 

Why do we feel the need to fix, blame, or rescue? 

And what happens when we choose not to play those parts?

We explore the power of radical self-responsibility — that fierce and freeing moment when you stop waiting for someone else to save you and step into your own agency. 

How can we hold space for others without rushing in to fix their discomfort? 

What does it take to trust that people are whole enough to find their own way?

Our kids are often some of our greatest teachers in this. Through their frustrations and their triumphs, they shown us the magic of patience, presence, and letting people cycle through their own experiences. And TBH? It’s not always easy. Sometimes the hardest thing is standing back and offering support without stepping in — but that’s where growth happens.

This episode is a reflection on the stories we tell ourselves, the roles we assign to others, and the deep work of staying curious and compassionate. So, which role do you slip into most often? And what would it take to step out of the triangle entirely? Join us for this rich and real conversation — we promise, you’ll leave with plenty to ponder.

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Transcript

0:05

It sort of reminds me of when we spoke in the past about letting people sit in their discomfort and finding comfort in the discomfort. Because that's exactly what we've sort of done with QK4. We work very hard on letting him work through his layers before we step in and offer him any real assistance. We'll offer him comfort, we'll offer him cuddles, we'll offer him to hold his space. And I guess part of this is holding space because you're allowing that to play out, you're allowing him to move all through every phase we've just spoken about. He gets into the victim stage, then he gets into the shaming stage, then he moves from there and he moves into the, oh hang on a minute, I want to change that, and just slowly cycles his way through. And when he's ready, When he's ready, he's ready to interact. And I guess it's where that interaction comes from and how it's given as to which role you're coming from when you meet him with that, when you finally work out what his actual need is. And you meet him there and then you've still got to hold back and let him decide how he wants to go forward Hello, Quanti-folks, and welcome to another episode of Faark The Shoulds podcast. I'm Jodi from QuantiMama. I'm McGill from QuantiPapa. Welcome back, McGill. Good I know, I know. We've actually, we've sort of reduced ourselves down to a couple that does a podcast but not very often because ones are always ferrying children around or putting Yeah. Which leads nicely into today's topic of Faark The Shoulds, because, you know, beautiful Quantifolks, I am all about Faarking The Shoulds wherever possible. And I think it's an amazing litmus test for daily life and I think reducing the noise and stress of life. So today's podcast is, I think we've got a working title of Heroes, Villains and Interesting. I've literally just heard that two seconds We do. I'm curious as to say, to find out where you Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, I just said to McGill that I'd love to have a tidy podcast that doesn't go for a couple of hours because this It is. And it's one of those things that when we do sit down and discuss it, we end up sort of going on and on and on. OK. Well, I think it's really useful for people if we just perhaps just clarify what the drama triangle is. So the drama triangle, I actually don't know where the origins are, but it has been talked about a fair bit in various circles. And essentially it's about recognising that often, particularly in our Western society, we're set up to fit into a drama triangle and take one of three roles. And sometimes that can change, but I think often people predominantly fall into one role. And so the three different roles are that of the hero or the savior, that of the victim, and that of the perpetrator or the villain, right? So we've got heroes, villains, and victims in our society. And I think that if you take a moment just to think about, say, your friendship circle or your family circle and think about if there are people that seem to be really playing into the drama triangle of life where I think that what happens is we're sort of set up to be addicted to the drama of life and some of us are addicted to being the victims of life and those people often I think will also be met with being unwell because they're in that state of dis-ease because constantly things are being done to them. They feel very disempowered by life. Shit is basically going wrong for them on a regular basis. And very rarely are they holding hands with the concept of radical self-responsibility. Because in radical self-responsibility, you aren't a victim. In fact, you're the agent of your It's interesting. And these roles, they change the people. And sometimes these roles are ascribed to you by others. And that makes an interesting thing, because you might very well be a hero in one person's story, and someone else casts you as the villain. And then before you know it, you might very well find yourself in that third role, the victim. And it's almost acceptable roles that we look for And that's a danger. Because when we start, when we start ascribing that role or that thing to somebody, we suddenly go, we suddenly change our perception of what that person might actually be after, what that person really needs at that point in Yeah, we tend to drop the curiosity and compassion part of that interaction, don't we? I think, I love that you've gone straight to that because I think that is something that we had a conversation, we've had a couple of conversations with privately and I am fascinated, I actually sense this may be a whole podcast episode in itself, where we get assigned or we get involved in being the stories and being characters in other people's stories. And we've certainly, I think, experienced that, where it's almost like your cast, as the villain particularly, which can really rile you where your ego is kind of going, That's such BS. Like, we're not a villain, but for some reason we're being painted as one. And It can, but sometimes somebody needs to blame somebody that's not themselves. Somebody can't take that radical self-responsibility, or they need to look at it and go, I'm not able to accept that yet. And so that role can be ascribed, and then there's other times where it Yeah. Yeah, because we haven't had an opportunity to kind of remedy that misunderstanding. So one of the things that I have found incredibly freeing, there's a couple of things. Firstly, I made the decision consciously to not participate in drama triangles. And that was like revolutionary because for us, we're like the superheroes in our community groups, aren't we? Because we've come from emergency services backgrounds. We tend to be people that are good in a crisis. We tend to stay calm under fire. And I didn't realize how addicted I was to that idea of being the superhero or being the hero. in people's stories until I started noticing, oh, that's interesting, that's getting my juice going, because I almost look for that identity to be the saviour. And what I realised was, in fact, firstly, I rob people of their own experiences when I come in and save the day, like, too prematurely. Our kids have been they have. But I mean, I guess the drama cycle, just digging a bit deeper on it, it's almost just a revamp of different things as you grew up. There were things like, you know, take responsibility for your actions. was something I grew up with. So we've almost modernized into this drama cycle, drama triangle, whatever you want to call it. But the key underpinning things don't change. There are people who are problem solvers. They see that as their role in life, there's your superhero. It's that person that, you know, sometimes is happy to help out, but also as you, exactly as you just said, is addicted to being the person who's always the one that helps out. So I guess if you dig a bit deeper and if you're looking at it going, oh, I don't ascribe someone to villain or another hero, who's your problem solver? Are you the problem solver? So just dig a bit deeper into what that drama triangle or drama cycle is, and look at it a bit more, the victim. Okay, so you don't consider yourself the victim, but the thing's always, what's Yeah, how long is your refractory period and what's the immediate thought when the S is hitting the But do you get the not fairs? Yeah, that's right. So, you know, and how long, the refractory period, how long do you sit in a not fairs before you decide that you're going to change your perception? You know, change your perception, change your reality, Yes. I think what you're saying is very reasonable, but I'm not trying to suggest that the problem solvers get retired out to the pasture, because there is a place for problem solvers. That's actually true. However, what it's about the, the point that you enter, say, a situation or you enter a conflict as the savior or hero, when you just insert yourself into that, in fact, it's probably more that you're playing out that drama triangle rather than waiting for the invitation. And that's why I was saying about the kids, because QK4 is a classic, right? QK4 is all about, I'm gonna do it myself, and he is, teaching us that like in real time every single day. And so what we noticed was that he would escalate in his frustration, which would then turn into unexpressed anger, into rage. And, you know, he'd get physical and chuck stuff around. And he basically was trying to assert his not even dominance, but That's right. So he wanted to be his whole self, which we agree they are whole selves. And we were so conditioned and used to being the heroes, we would jump in and save the day before he could have the opportunity to, like, have the whole experience because he wants the whole experience. So what it is, as problem solvers, it's about us taking radical responsibility in those situations to pull back and say, I'm This sort of reminds me, I think we spoke in the past about letting people sit in their discomfort and finding comfort in the discomfort. Because that's exactly what we've sort of done with QK4. We work very hard on letting him work through his layers before we step in and offer him any real assistance. We'll offer him comfort, we'll offer him cuddles, we'll offer him to hold his space. And I guess part of this is holding space, because you're allowing that to play out. You're allowing him to move all through every phase we've just spoken about. You know, he gets into the victim stage, then he gets into the shaming stage, and then he moves from there and he moves into the, oh, hang on a minute, I want to change that, and just slowly cycles his way through. And when he's ready, when he's ready, he's ready to interact. And I guess it's where that interaction comes from and how it's given as to which role you're coming from when you meet him with that, when you finally work out what his actual need is. And you meet him there and then you've still got to hold back and let him decide how he wants to go forward Yeah. So I think what you're talking about there is essentially how we gracefully step out of the drama triangle with all that stuff, because essentially when you choose not to participate in the drama, particularly in someone's drama triangle, right? whether, excuse me, whether they're trying to make you the victim in their story so they can be the saviour, or perhaps they want to be the perpetrator because they enjoy being cruel for no reason. I mean, who knows, right? There's a kaleidoscope of interesting people out there that have got a whole bunch of stuff. And often I think it's basically trapped emotions and traumas that are just trying to work their way out of their body. But how do we, on a daily basis, choose not to participate in that drama triangle? And it really is about holding that space, isn't it? Holding the frequency of you're whole, I'm whole, you get to play That's a tough one because it is highly addictive and you alluded to before our emergency services background. So we are used to turning up and, you know, taking charge of a situation, directing people and all those sorts of things because we're turning up at a crisis point. So the question is, how do we, how do you avoid getting to a crisis point before Why do we have to... I'm not for crisis, but in this world where people... are constantly ignoring the universal messages, say the collective soup that we're all part of, right? How do we get any sort of forward momentum of people remembering their wholeness if they keep ignoring the universal soups, pebbles and stones that are trying to capture their attention and they ignore, ignore, ignore, keep doing the same crap and then they bring a brick their way or a boulder, which is something they've called in for their own learning. Like, I think the crises are actually really important for some people. You actually need to divorce yourself from the fact that they are a train wreck waiting to happen. I'm not saying you put them in harm's way, but I'm really interested in how that happens on the ground level of Let's bring it back to an area we know, let's go back to QK4. We have to let him know every time that he has the support, he has the safe space, he has the area to express himself. But every time we step in, we've robbed him of an opportunity of that full experience, which is what you spoke about before. So it's more about, and this is something I guess I've kept in the back of my mind with all our kids, and with you, darling, is to be the constant. So for me, in who I am, it's always been to be steady, reliable, there, willing, able to step in and help at a moment's notice, but at the same time, just knowing, just allowing people around me to know that I'm there if they need me. And doing my utmost, and I know that it's not something I'll always get right, not to inject myself into those situations. And I guess for me, that's probably worked, being able to work better at a localized level in terms of outside of old roles for me, because it was something you had to do. Whereas now we're looking at interpersonal relationships and we're looking at them and going, well, you know, we can see that this is coming. See the rattling of the train on the tracks. We can see it getting wonky. We can see the corner coming. Because you and I have this beautiful thing of being able to look ahead and life experience, and so do so many people. But how do we get that life experience? Who is our constant? Who is the person that will let us rattle around and fall apart and in that refractory period of putting ourselves back together? There's I don't know. I don't know if I can draw on people in my life in this lifetime. I don't know if I came in with that set of instructions. It is interesting, though, because as we have remarked in the past, like I can be the fiery redhead. So I definitely run much hotter than McGill. And he runs this this consistent consistency and this constancy. I see that. And one of the things that I thought about when you were just talking then was your presence when we were birthing QK1. And I remember vaguely, I have vague recollections of that, essentially my crisis when I went through transition, which is literally just before you birth your baby. And I had done that labor without any analgesia, but I did have syntocinin, which is a crap way to birth, can I just say, because it speeds the body up, not natural speed. So it was intense, and I can definitely declare that because I've done three without syntocinin. So there was all that going on, and I remember vaguely being in transition, and some of this has been filled in by your recounting of what happened. But I do remember being in crisis mode and just going, that's it. I'm done. We were at hospital. So it was our only hospital birth. And I'm like, that's it. I'm done. I'm going home. I will come back tomorrow. And I was emphatic. Like, I farking didn't care what you were going to say at that point. I was going home and you could stick everything else up your backside. And can you remember what you were like in that space? Because, I mean, now we've done four births, it can get a little bit blurry, but I always remember, and there's a photo of this too, it's so beautiful, of you holding my hands and we were literally either side of the hospital bed and you were just looking into my eyes. You probably didn't have any articulation about left eye communication back then, which is the receiving eye, but You were looking into my eyes and you were holding my hands and you were just fully present. And just, you know, I find it remarkable now with how constant you were. You were so steady and grounded because we didn't have any of this awareness. In fact, that birth was what birthed us into being these kind of quantum The interesting thing that I take out of what you said there, and it was hilarious, because exactly as you said, you said you were going home, that you were done And I do remember at that point in time just going, yep, that's my girl, and almost wanting to crack up laughing. But the gravity of the situation, obviously, is far more. What I'd say to you is, yeah, I didn't know half the stuff then that I know now. All I knew at that point in time was that for our birth, I was there to support you. The amazing birth educators that we had through CarnBirth had said at some point in time, you know, your partner will be fully reliant upon you. And it's something that I'll then pass on in years to come when you were actually instructing and try to explain to partners, in particular male partners, that at some point in time in their birth, their partner would be fully in the palm of their hand and how they dealt with that would make a difference to whether or not, not to whether or not, but to how successful an outcome would be at birth. Yes, just literally holding that soul in your hands because they're so busy And I knew, I knew at that point that you very well Oh, I don't think I thought so. I think I seriously thought I was going home. I don't think you would have made it to the door. No, I think I would have had a head coming Yes. But what's the point in me indulging you at that point in time or berating you at that point in time? Because the realization is on its way anyway. Yeah. Just my role to be there to allow Yes. Yes, because that was going to unfold. And obviously, the great thing about birth is there are very physical things that you cannot deny, like a human coming out of your vagina is a great indicator that something big is happening. Yes. It's quite extraordinary. So what I love about that is that that was so potent. And I think that's why I bang on about the fact that we waste birth experiences, because people don't get the full gamut of lessons when you trim it down in all these different ways, whether you anesthetize yourself to the experience, whether you opt in for surgery, whether you walk into the birth experience thinking you're broken or your body's not built for this, like all those things, short change, the absolute magnificence that is you and is you in that particular expression of life which is bringing new life earth side, right? So it's just, it's wild in terms of how comprehensive the experience is. But what's really cool is the way you did that, which was essentially, I know you had an intention around there and you had a framework thanks to the birth education that we did, which was really just so helpful in empowering us. But because you didn't have like a conscious articulation of what that was, But then you experienced it, you embodied that, and now you've rocked it for the last 17 years as a consequence. I mean, you were already rocking it, but you had the extreme experience, and then you internalize that and you're like, oh, that's how Well, if we bring that back and you look at the drama cycle, in that exact moment, if I had ascribed to you a victim role, then all of a sudden I'm calling for stuff to alleviate what's going on Yes, that's the Hollywood birth experience where the husband's running around like a bloody headless chook. And it just eliminates all reverence for what's going on. There's no presence. And he's going, save her, save her, get her drugs, whatever. So if I then take that, I then put myself into the hero mode. But then at some point you may very well ascribe me the villain. For the simple fact is that I've suddenly done what I felt was going to solve the immediacy of their problem by getting you something that would assist you Yes, because in my story, I wanted your support no matter what. And so then if you alleviate my so-called pain, we'll call it birth symptoms, and science, then that to me is saying, you don't believe in my capacity, right? Which is obviously not what it means, but this is where we come back to the drama triangle and the stories that we create and how we cast our villains and our heroes and obviously our victims within that. And then we kind of fill in this I guess for me, and what you've highlighted there, what's worked for me, and this has worked for you, obviously, in challenges that I've had in more recent years, sometimes it's about being that constant, just knowing. So in the birth space, in our lives, you just know that you can come to me at any point in time. And I know that if you come and ask me an honest question, then I can give you an honest answer. And that's another thing, obviously, honesty is huge as well. But just so in our case... Thoughtful honesty. Yeah, but in our exact case, in our exact dynamic, there's heap of time where you're the constant. With our kids, we're the constant. We work very hard at going, well, look, these are the boundaries. You can rub up against them, you can step over them, but we're going to come back to that line. Then obviously, we're going to stretch ourselves if we need to change one of those boundaries, especially having a range of children at seven years apart in age. You've got one that's you know yeah very different nearly 17 all the way down to one who's nine so the the boundaries are going to be constantly yeah moving yeah but it's about having that consistency and I think we see this a lot of times in society where you might have a parent who's always, yes, yes, yes. And no one is going, well, hang on, I'll be more moderate about this. I don't want to say yes to ice cream at nine o'clock at night, two minutes before they're supposed to get into bed. I want some level of things. And it's for those two parties to get together and work out how they can work together cohesively as a constant thing, takes a huge amount of commitment, because it's much easier for the person saying no to the ice cream to ascribe the, the villain role to the other party, the victim role to themselves, and then maybe someone else is there, an older child is there, and they interject and go, well, let's do that tomorrow. Come and do your teeth. And then all of a sudden we have our hero in the story. And if you can never get on board or never work out a way forward on issues like that, then you're going to find that you're butting up against one another and suddenly you're going to ascribe your partner or your friend or your child a role that Well, I mean, I just think it internalizes more emotional trauma for everyone. I mean, you're actually building rubbish bins in everyone's body and it's for nothing because in fact, no one wins participating in those stories. So one thing I just want to ask you, and I'm keen, I mean, we could talk for hours, but I am keen to honour everyone's time. When you have been challenged in the last few years, How, because you are the constant and you know that about yourself and you know that you have that skill set, when you're challenged, tapping into that feeling of being the constant is actually quite difficult because you feel, I imagine, you feel that stuff's not working out. You're not being, you're not expressing yourself in the usual identity of protector and provider role. So, there's a whole degree of uncertainty. You're in the universal soup of surrender if you actually want to do that or you're fighting the tide of that, right? So, how was that for you? Like, not in this kind of airy, fairy way. How was that for you? How did you resource yourself or what helped when it was tough? Because it's all very well to talk about this stuff where you're feeling grounded and all going well. I mean, I always joke about being a fair weather, you know, spiritual person. I'm not up for the ugly stuff. I'm not up for the work. I just, I hate that feeling. I know that I'll get through it. But in that moment, I'm all's and all, and I feel all of it. And I hate feeling like No, I'm definitely far more moderate. But having said that, I know in parts of the craziness that was going on, I ascribed myself victim role. What I'd say that helped in that was that you refused to acknowledge that. I think a number of times at a time you would say to me, you are not the victim in this. And I guess that having that, the time to work through and to think about and reflect, I've always been a reflective sort of person. Each time I've looked at it, I've gone, am I the victim in this? Why am I feeling this way? Why is this all happening? And then suddenly I have to change my language from why is this happening to me to going? And it took a while and I had to change my, language from a position of disempowerment to a position of empowerment. So instead of, why is this happening to me? Why can't I get this up and going to what an opportunity I have? I'm gonna just move forward and just see what the next day brings and the next, sometimes it was the next hour, sometimes it was the next minute working but changing the language around it so that I changed my role from being the victim. And then at that point in time, I have no doubt I immersed myself in what we had created in terms of our relationship. our children, and I allowed you guys to be my constant, because at that point in time, I was at sea. So I needed something to anchor to, and the fortunate thing is that what I anchored to was a level of, what I would consider common sense, but where I am now, but a bit of constancy about expectations, behaviors, and changing that thought pattern from the poor me's or ascribing a villain role to everybody else and looking for reasons to blame society or other people for what was happening and went, okay, how does any of that serve me? But having that constant in the background was just the thing that allowed me the time to work through the layers and get to that point of going, well, I've just got to move forward because if I don't move forward, I'm And that stagnancy of being stuck, I Well, you can't be at sea and be stuck. Do you know what I mean? Like you're in the universal soup or the universal sea and you can't be stuck there. Like even if you drop anchor, you're still going to float around the Yeah, I know that, but you had to look that concept of sinking in the eye and feel that into your body and say, is this true for me? And yeah, you probably wanted to sink because it was challenging, right? But aren't we here for that? Aren't we here to brush up against experiences? I am, but I am for me, but I'm all about the dudes for Nah, nah, nah. I am your son, sweetie. I And there's no doubt that that was part of the defining Yes, I'm at sea. Yes, I feel like I'm going to sink, but I'm not So when you're at sea, one of the most incredible resources you can do is look at your bonds of affection, your attachment to people, your relationships with people and resource yourself. Like go make connections if you don't have any, because this is an absolute to try and do life when it's hard by yourself. I know some people will prosper in the silence and solitude, but most do not because we are part of the collective soup in the quantum field. We are individual expressions or you know, essentially light bodies that are refractions of the same image, basically. And so when we notice that and we recognize that and we call on the resources of the community in some fashion, you only need one good person in your corner just to hold that space for you, don't you? And there are some people that by themselves can see that. I think Yeah. But we mustn't. This is this thing right in this world of no man left behind. Yeah, there are some people that are loners and will get themselves out of the mess by themselves. But I think when we reference those people, we do a disservice to everyone else who universally does I think everybody does better with connection to some degree. But I mean, that's talking from our immediate experience, our connection that we have with one another, our connection we have with our family, our connection we have with our extended family is probably Yeah. It's a good conversation. I mean, there's so much more I want to say. I do love a souvenir, peeps. So my souvenir for you, apart from obviously having that conversation about gathering community or a community member, even if it's a community of two, if you're needing resourcing, if you're wanting to divorce yourself from the drama triangle and how that is downregulating you, because it is. Use your breath. Take a moment of pause. Allow for yourself to feel the feelings. They don't define you, but they do exist within you. And if you bury them, they will come back and bite you on the backside at some point. They will downregulate you. So acknowledge that and use them as a way to move forward in your sea, however that is. Just that it's OK to be happy. You don't need a reason to be happy. If You know, express that emotion. And. You know, there's there's times in that period of time where I was sort of at sea where I just sometimes smile. Hmm. It's always beautiful when you smile. He's smiling right now. Of course he is. Beautiful Quantifolk. Another conversation that could have gone on for hours, but we love you too much to keep you here for They do. Go live your life. We'll look forward to chatting with you next time. Hey Quantifolks, I've said it before and I'll say it again, birth is transformational. And it can be transformational in the right way and in the not so right way. So how do we arm ourselves to be really prepared for this incredible experience? Well, you wouldn't go out and run a marathon without any kind of training. You'd at least do occasional stretches and the High Vibe Birth Course, which is self-paced, available at the quantimama.com website, is available for you. You get to luxuriate in all of the ideas and transformational techniques and the beautiful information that can only have a positive effect on your birth. So get fit for your birth marathon and head to QuantiMama