Alchemising Education - Dear Teacher

Dear Teacher,

We see you. The spark you started with is still in there — buried maybe, but not broken. You wanted to change lives. Instead, you’re wading through reports, watching bright eyes dim. It’s enough to make anyone question everything.

In this Alchemising Education convo, QuantiMama Jodi and Kerri sit down with Jonathan Zalunardo — ex-teacher, founder of Apogee Australia, and proud builder of the new. He spent years trying to make the old model work. It didn’t. So he left, not in defeat, but in devotion — to kids, to parents, and to what school could actually be.

Over 50% of Aussie teachers say they’ll quit within five years[1].

And who could blame them? When your gut says this isn’t it, but the system says stick it out, the misalignment corrodes more than just your weekdays. Jonathan listened to that inner nudge — and now works alongside families to reimagine learning from the ground up.

This episode isn’t about burning it all down. It’s about choosing something better — together.

If you're a parent or teacher quietly thinking there must be another way, this one’s for you. Grab a cuppa. The conversation’s already started.

Sources
 [1] Australian Education Union – State of our Schools Report (2024)

Transcript

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[Music] It's pulling at our core this desire in our soul and when you're working in a mission-driven profession like education, when you see the dropout rates that we have, that's a huge red flag. And everyone knows it and unfortunately we stick at it because we are so called to support these children but there's no clear alternative there and at some point we've got to have a look outside and see what people are doing is actually benefiting them but mostly benefiting the kids and that's what we're there to do in the first place is work for them.[Music] Hello Quanti-folks and welcome to another episode of Alchemising Education, our little sister podcast for Faark The Shoulds. I am Jodi from QuantiMama. Hello everyone and I am Kerri from QuantiMama. Yes you are and today we have a beautiful man, a guest that's going to I think crack parents' hearts wide open because this will be very much I think a very honest and impassioned plea for us to sit up and take note. I feel that we need to call him Mr Z and, Zelenadro. Zalunardo, I think he's gonna, oh my god I've already got it wrong, we're gonna call him Mr Z. Jonathan from Apogee Australia, a well like not quite former teacher because really you're still a teacher but is joining us today to essentially give us a look behind Ozz's curtain of what's happening in schools today. Jonathan we're so delighted you're here to join us for this conversation thank you and again sorry for messing up your name yet again. It's been my whole life so I won't hold you to it but thank you for having me here, Jodi and Kerri, the honour is mine. Yeah we're delighted so I guess just to get right into it we wanted to have this conversation but essentially it is an open letter to the teachers of Australia and I suppose if we leave from that platform or that space why are you here, what has been your journey for one of a better term but your pathway to getting to this point where you now have essentially an open letter to teachers, to the teachers of Australia. So I was a teacher, a school teacher, prime school teacher for, I worked in the schools for a bit over 10 years while I was in university I worked in the schools as in the ACT we call it a learning support assistant and then I was a teacher for going on eight years and I decided to walk away from it because like many before me that have stepped away I felt like something wasn't aligned with the reason that I got into it in the first place and teaching is one of those professions that is mission driven there's something deeper inside of us that calls us to do it, it's not you know like selling cars or you know working down at the butcher shop there's something that really calls at us to want to transmit a culture and work with these beautiful young people to teach them about the way we think we should live and I didn't really feel like I was doing that and I decided that for not only my own sanity but for the for the children that I was teaching that I needed to go out into the world and look at what education looked like not in a school and what it could look like if it was actually designed as intended to transmit a way of living and a way of pouring into the children first and not imparting on them something that a system has decided we need to do. That I mean that is obviously a beautiful thing the the media thought I have is there's probably parents everywhere going we need you in the schools because you're there for the right reasons you're not jaded you're not you have an acquiesce to a system that is built on overwhelm for these teachers and we know that because we talked to so many teachers in the system trying to meet all the requirements wanting so honestly to be able to represent the kids and essentially being worn down over time. How does that then look when you leave the the education model the traditional education model what has been then your solution as what you see as an answer to what's missing or what's not being met within the school system? What's not being met well when I when I started to have my doubts raised about whether what I was doing was right or not the only place I decided I could look for the answer was the kids and I worked alongside a lot of fantastic people fantastic teachers and I think every single one of them is a good person at their core and they get forced into doing things that or not forced but they comply to the system by doing things that they say other people do as a way of trying to make it work. So I started to look not at what my colleagues were doing but at what the kids were saying what their actions were portraying because that was the reason I was there was to serve them so I first and foremost took a step back and had a look at the way they were acting at their what the things that they were saying and what they wanted and I and I took that as my cue to do what I always intended on doing and that was serving them. So it was tricky when you're when you're trying to play the game of school and do everything that you're being told to do on a day-to-day basis of the reporting and all that kind of thing but within each day there is so much time for them to hear what they have to say and learn about them as humans and the things that really light them up and it's funny I've thought about this for quite a while what made me have this sense of wanting to know what the kids wanted to do and I have one man in my life who is sadly no longer with us but my memory of him is that he always looked at me with such curiosity and whenever I spoke I could genuinely feel his desire to want to hear me speak and I think a little bit of that got imparted on me so I always took it upon myself to really listen to what lit the kids up and it's pretty easy to to hear what their passions are because they come out with it straight away what they're interested in because that's what wakes them up every day it's the first thing they think about and somewhere along the way that gets lost a little bit but when you start digging you can pretty quickly find what that is and that's how I lent into the children and and and serve them as best as I could despite the fact that my days were often made up doing things that neither of us wanted to do unfortunately but there was still a lot of room for for them Jonathan what is it that's making the job so difficult for these teachers like why are they not able to do what you desire to do so you can look at the the history of schooling and there's people that will be able to talk about that history far better than I can the Prussian model and and the hidden lessons of schooling all that kind of thing I'm not an expert on that I've done my my due diligence and know a little bit about it but we are stuck in a cycle of reporting and testing and working to the curriculum which none of us designed we inherited it and it just gets passed down to us from people that came before and I don't think anyone necessarily designed it with a sinister you know motive but somewhere along the way we've just got caught up in thinking that we need to impart all this knowledge on these kids without actually looking at them first and when you're working off this document this national curriculum that is designed to give everyone a fair go we're not actually giving that individual child a fair go we're not leading with them first and then putting the building blocks in place for them to have the skills that might be in that document because they don't need every single one of them they don't need you know everything that's in the science strand and the history and whatever might actually be in it I've worked off of it for years and and I can't even articulately explain what's in it so how on earth could we expect that a child and a family is going to be able to to explain it and so we just get caught up in this cycle of doing things that other people are telling us to do and not actually leading with our own intuition and a lot of the people that I have worked with they have families of their own or their aunts uncles they've they've got this passion for working with young people but we're not actually working with them and so often we're working against them and making them do something that we've been told is what they need yet every single one of our sensors tells us the opposite so we're just in total disalignment and and just trying to find some some clarity in each day to to get us through but unfortunately we're we're working against against our own intuition that's very powerful because you know we talk a lot about essentially emboldening in our kids and ourselves to live in alignment and what that basically means is honoring that inner truth or that intuition that kicks in and I can only imagine how corrosive and carcinogenic that would be for a teacher's mental health who started out with what we'll call the right reasons but basically altruistic intentions about what their career could be and how they could have the ripple effect through their community with children to then be in this space where they're living out of alignment not having the intuition on it you know knowing that's wrong but still doing it you know so it's almost like this sort of self-abuse cycle that happens that just must be so corrosive to even how you shop in the world how you feel about yourself how you interact with those around you including the you know students that are under your tutelage as well and so if you could speak to I guess the teachers at large who are in varying degrees of being worn down or disillusioned to the point where they choose to go on strike and I and I absolutely applaud that because you need to have something that captures the community's attention that that the situation needs you know some kind of remedial action what do you want to say to them your instincts are right that we want to do something different and I applaud every single teacher that sticks at it because the kids need us and there's a part of me that just wants to go back into a school tomorrow and be there with the kids and be alongside the the teachers the good people that are still there day to day doing what's right by them but I guess my mission and what I've decided that I want to go and do is I want to go and find a way and prove to people that this schooling system that like I said we've inherited isn't the only way to do it and that you know we look at a child up until the age of five they don't go to school and they learn to walk re talk they learn to do all these things feed themselves share the list goes on and on but for whatever reason we decide that once we get to this age we've got to do it this way and to step outside and say there is a different way we can't we can do it and there's a whole community of people that have stepped outside of the conventional systems that are proving that to our state at age like the both of you that have stepped out and decided that there's a different way of educating our children and and I look at this this phrase this cultural transmission and it's one that Dr Peter Gray outlines in his book free to learn and it's one that really stuck with me when I started to look at at education a little bit closer through my own through my own eyes and and I look at what is the purpose of what we're doing in the first place so we're just trying to build resumes for these kids or is there something deeper at our core that we're trying to pass on to these children and it's that that way of living I want my child to be better than I was I want the children of my community to to learn our way of life what we hold dear our values our customs to pass that on and allow them to carry that forth but then build a better world and inside the system that we've built I I hazard to guess that many people actually think that that's the best way to do it otherwise there wouldn't be the dissatisfaction that we see the dropout rates of teachers are are what they are because it's pulling at our core this desire in our soul and when you're working in a mission driven profession like education when you see the dropout rates that we have that's a huge red flag and everyone knows it and unfortunately we stick at it because we are so called to support these children but there's no clear alternative there and at some point we've got to have a look outside and see what people are doing is actually benefiting them but mostly benefiting the kids and that's what we're there to do in the first place is work for them absolutely and look one of the things I really love is that you know and I'd love for you to share more about the Apogee program and I guess what it is but why you were attracted to it because I think like us you're putting your money where your mouth is you're actually being an agent of change we're doing in a very small scale in our own families a little bit wider in terms of the fact that we support other families in this as well but you're actually showing up for the kids and I think that's potent it's absolutely potent and you prove to people that it's possible too because you know the invisible barrier to change is the thing that stops people from taking that first step so you know tell us about Apogee tell us what are what are the what were the things that it made you essentially fall in love with this as an offering to then bring this to Australian families so the story with Apogee it's a that's a good question so I when COVID happened to like many people had the veil unlifted and I started looking into different things that people were doing in education for lack of a better term because I saw COVID as an opportunity for us to say all right we're not at school anymore let's listen to the kids they're at home they're not in the room with us so world's our oyster kind of thing what can we do in the home that serves them and that didn't really happen so I started looking and I discovered a gentleman named Matt Bedro who he founded three schools of his own under the Acton Academy banner and then life took its course and he stepped away from those campuses I won't go into the full details of that and started Apogee with his business partner partner Tim Kennedy and it started as a mentorship program serving young men primarily and then that was so successful that it turned into a men's program and now it's got programs for women and young women also but then the opportunity came up where they started an affiliate license so there was one initial campus that started and that's in uh Austin Texas and I had actually gone through the process to become an Acton affiliate and I had no idea what that entailed I just thought oh this looks cool I'll do it totally naive to what that would actually entail and I got to speak to Matt while he was a Acton affiliate and so I became a follower of his I really resonated with his message and I when the opportunity to come up become an Apogee affiliate arose I just said to my wife Tim we have to do this we have to give this a shot because I was so fed up with what I was doing on a day-to-day basis I was frustrated I was going into work angry I was you know I was still showing up because I loved being there with the with the young heroes these young kids that they're just awesome they're so much fun and they've got so much enthusiasm and they're so curious and that energy that they bring you it keeps you coming back but I just I needed to do it different I couldn't persist in this struggle that we all experience so what the Apogee affiliate program essentially is is it offers an opportunity for people to work with Apogee to create a campus of their own creation so some of the Apogee affiliates in the United States which I went and visited in June they operate as micro schools or some of them are official schools some of them are specifically just mentorship programs some of them only operate as higher higher education so there's a whole range of different things that the Apogee affiliates are doing over there in the States and what called to tembeanize that we really want to work with families we see this I guess gap in education where parents feel like they're incapable of working with their children they feel like they don't have the knowledge to work with their kids or provide their children with what they need but what we've learned through Apogee is that a parent they are the primary educator of their child they come first and that anything else that's alongside that is a supplement to that so what we're creating it's it's not a school where we don't want to call it that we've we've done that game and so what we're designing is something very different it's where the families we work alongside them we look at what the families desire for their children and we have our skills that we have taken from the schooling system we know how to teach kids to read and write and do arithmetic and and all that kind of thing we can do that but what we're really interested in in is working with mum and dad and the children to unpack their curiosity and look at what it is that they bring to the world what's their genius and that that word genius is an interesting one because there's this really interesting study done by NASA that actually this is a total tangent that uh that tested for our preschool children for genius and it came back with over 90 percent of kids tested for genius but then as they aged and they continued to do this test it evaporated this so-called genius failed to show anymore and they linked that to schooling so we we look at these kids that they all have something that lights them up they're genius they're talent that they can truly bring to the world and and that's what we want to unpack we want to give them those frameworks of being able to read and being able to write and and a good moral code and build a community of people that can work all together in poor and into these young people and and giving them something that you know we didn't necessarily have but also allowing that to align with our with our family values and and what we believe is best for them because a good country is built by by good families that's what we believe and that's what we're here to do that's amazing that it's such a gift and the fact that you've identified the gap in the programming of the education system and the separation of family from being involved or feeling qualified to be a part of that is is is really important so to know that Apogee Australia is going to be able to focus on that I certainly know through my own experience that you know when things got a bit tough you know they sort of almost say you're helicopter parenting you know you you can't get involved let us deal with this you know and and it's kind of like no you're separating us you know we want to build the relationships with our children you know so that they feel like they're part of community so they can trust relationships and and trust themselves so what you're doing is amazing and what I also love is the fact that you are that example of you know recognizing where things aren't in alignment and you kind of go this isn't working for me it how do I you know how do I help these kids when I'm not in alignment and once you're in alignment as the educator or the facilitator or the guide or the mentor you know you're shining when you talk about it Jonathan you know so that's got to rub off on these kids and the fact that the programs are so structured that they can't find what lights are up along the way you know whereas you're the demonstration as an adult and we all have to demonstrate as adults is that you know what when we're not in alignment we we need to be allowed to pivot we need to be allowed to change we need to be able to try new things and and that's you know as adults we demonstrate that and your program is going to be able to help that for the families and the kids so yeah it's exciting really exciting thank you but where to from here where to from here that's a good question I'm we're figuring it out day by day but our deepest desire is to is to be back with with families and children and and you know my wife and I where we have a child of our own she's not even three years old yet we've got another one that's going to join us here in the world in in a couple of months very exciting but so we're on this journey ourselves of watching our daughter and seeing the way that she grows up in this world so we feel like we're learning this all over again like what is it that a child requires to become a stand-up human and this is what we're in the business of it's human development and so we're we're learning it from the ground up as we speak so we're also stepping into the world of business and and doing and doing education our way and in the in a way that aligns with us so we're out there talking to families at the minute about what we are looking to create and seeing if there's anyone that aligns with our vision for not just education but the way we live our life and you know we I say this word education and there's the schooling and curriculum and all these things but it's just on a day-to-day basis like when we look at our kids what they're doing what they're curious about and follow their patterns of existence then your day-to-day just becomes its own its own story and its own journey and there's never going to be not be something to do so we're just we're being led by her and led by the the questions that arise day-to-day on the people come to us with about education and we just take it as it comes we're building some really cool partnerships with with people up here on the sunny coast and around the country with with yourselves in in working with families and helping unpack what it is that we're I guess what we're here to do just as humans like why are we on this earth in the first place like that question in itself like that's that's something that I'm still trying to figure out and I don't think you ever get the answer to but you know when we raise our children how do we how do we coalesce that with uh with their upbringing you know what what do we what do we want for them what do we want as adults and and how do we tie that all together as a as a way of life yeah absolutely and I I think that for us you know we um obviously we're interested in the parents so that we can the parents can be the ripple effect for their children and when the parents feel um I guess without a compass that makes this whole process seem really overwhelming so you know we tend to say look you've just got to find a framework that works and I think that the thing that excites me about programs or frameworks like apogee but even the energy that you've put behind that like the reason why you are where you are is really compelling for parents you know you're someone who has seen inside the system has you know done their level best to show up in a in this way that you want to your best version of yourself for your kids and so forth as any students and then basically gone this is not working we need to find another um framework so that we can you know keep the genius uh spark alive we don't dampen that down and if there was ever a reason for a parent to make a change surely that has got to be it because I think within all of us parents depending on our experience in the education system there there is a remembering that that genius spark was extinguished or at least dimmed at some point because we all had it right and when I look at what kids do in their first say even three years of life or even from gestation do you think about the innate intelligence of nature and the way cells combine and create a human with toenails and eyebrows it's just wild right it's it's not a problem I'm not doing that the cells that's in them that's right so I mean I think we identify as geniuses from that point right we grew five fingers and you know all those sort of things so there there must be something that must hit the hearts of parents where they're just in order to to make that first move take that first step they need to have some assurance that they will be caught on the other side and I think that you know having a program that supports family dynamics is just it's it's like the pinnacle of a solution for having an alternative way to live life and so I'm really grateful that people like yourself have actually found a pathway out of the known comfort and assurance of just having a career that didn't feel an alignment you know so almost that what do you call it that kind of devaluing of your own values and actually putting yourself out there it's incredibly brave and and I just want to say that to you from one parent to another that I'm really I'm so grateful and I'm sure I'm speaking for many around the country probably the world because it's a shared concern but you know we're very grateful that there are brave people like you that that do find another solution you know I think this is going to be something that's going to interest a lot of people and I know that this day you're looking at sort of in person based on the Sunshine Coast but the hope is obviously for the tentacles to spread throughout the country is that right yeah so so Apigee anyone can become an Apigee affiliate we just went through the application process and and we're accepted I still sort of wonder why I was accepted because you know like anyone on my own harshest critic and know that I have many deficiencies but and I still wonder why people would ever trust me with their child but I'm very grateful that people that people have been kind enough in the past to let me teach their children and and now we're we're going out and doing that on their on it on our own and so anyone that wants to or if the message of Apigee appeals to them they can become an affiliate themselves but I guess where with what we're wanting to create we hope that we can in one way or another show people that there is a different way of of living of educating and that we can maybe inspire someone along the way but first and foremost this is about our family and the people here that we aim to serve on the sunny coast and that we we just want to get back to our the mission that we set out to do in the first place as teachers and working with families and working with kids and and unpacking that genius and and being the hero to these kids and just setting some good standards and living with some good values that the kids can aim to uphold but we want these kids to be good people we want them to let their genius shine well guess what you're going to have to you're going to have to meet a pretty high mark because we're going to be the ones that are setting that mark and we've got some fantastic families up here on the sunny coast that are just awesome people that are great moms great dads that are out there killing it doing so much in their day today and their kids are they got a high bar to meet and as a collective we're going to be able to really set a standard for these children that makes them incredible people and we already know that they are incredible and that one way or another that we're going to really make a difference for our country because we love this place and we just consider ourselves so fortunate to be here and I've only been on the sunny coast a little while but this place is absolute paradise and we just want to honor that and and do what's right by our beautiful community beautiful that is that is a beautiful note to end on Mr Z thank you so much for joining us and you know we absolutely will point people in the direction of apogee I think that you know solutions based frameworks of what families need and we're so grateful for you your passion and your commitment to making this happen another beautiful conversation yeah thanks so much Jonno I really appreciate it because we need people like you to just be you know changing things up and and giving parents some you know confidence that there's other ways so yeah thanks for your time quanti-folks thanks thanks no you're right yep I will I will never cut off a teacher again let that let that be on record yeah um quanti-folks thanks for listening thanks for joining in thanks for you know participating in this conversation with your presence but more than that use this as an opportunity to take action in some small measure if only just to honor what's right for you and your heart but also your children it is possible there are people out there looking for solutions and you know you might be one of them until next time quanti-folks with this alchemyzing education thanks for station yeah thanks for joining us everyone see you soon hey Quanti-folks you know the conversations that we have about alchemising education are underpinned by our amazing take the leap course for parents which is all about de-schooling the parents if you're keen to deep dive more then check out the quantumamma.com website and find the take the leap course this course is beautiful because it will give you an opportunity to examine where your programs are where you're creating limiting beliefs and expectations for your child and it ultimately frees you to be the best advocate for your child that you can be and that's all of us can ever want for our children just to love nurture and watch them become the most incredible individuals that we already know them to be so more info head to quantimama.com