Architects are from Mars Builders are from Venus
Architects are from Mars Builders are from Venus
The Devil is in the Details: Understanding why Structure is so important to Design & Construction
Hello and welcome to another episode of the architects and builders podcast, brought to you by ruby sketch.
Speaker 2:Let's get started. Okay. Thanks for joining us for episode seven. My name is drew[inaudible] and I'm your host. Now, the reason we're doing these podcasts is because we're passionate about connecting the design and construction industry. Many companies say they are, but we actually mean it, and we believe that if everyone in the industry better understands each other, we'll communicate better leading to stronger relationships, more sustainable design and construction, and more profitable businesses. So in this series we'll be talking to architects, designers, builders, estimators, and product manufacturers. We want to discuss the issues that are costing each profession time and money, as well as taking a look at what we could be doing to create more successful businesses. Before we start, we'd like to give special thanks to our platinum sponsor, brick works building products. Brick looks at one of Australia's largest building product companies where the product range that includes bricks,[inaudible], stone, masonry blocks, precast concrete panels, and the list goes on, dilate through style and innovation, creating beautiful products that last forever. In this episode, we're going to be speaking with Ruby sketches, very own Andrew. Dwight Andrews is the owner and founder of Ruby sketch, but is also a designer and builder with over 29 years in the industry and we're going to be talking about structure and why this is so important whether you're designing or building.
Speaker 3:I agree. Thanks for joining me. How are you doing today? Yeah. Good. Thanks for time. Really well. It's been a while since I've been here. Has so you can shed some light on the industry and today I wanted to talk with you about structure and structural engineering specifically and why it's so powerful to have including the three d virtual design and construction model. No reason I want to talk to you about it is because we are constantly getting people reaching out to us and asking us should it be done, how can they do it with plus back and what's the best way to even include the engineer structural engineer in the process and I thought there's no one better to get on and talk about this. Then yourself. Thanks. Look, I've done a lot of jobs and I'm sure that most people know that I come from a construction background and uh, typically builders where we like to try and save money where we can, however, it is always going to be a time, especially in the study of where a structural engineer need to get involved in the project. And it could be the steel inside the concrete or structural steel that, that holds up the framework or whatever that might be. And, and essentially I think the builders in general, they would usually have a pretty good understanding of what's required from previous jobs. Yet an architect might not have that same experience or understanding of structure. So in all cases I always employ a structural engineer on my notes and get them to do the whole project. I might actually go through and say, well, you know, in the past I've done this before and muffled my veins in a product and then get the structural engineer to have a look at it and either have a conversation face to face or send them a model and say, uh, I might set up as sane at the top of sketchup, says, engineer or engineer one agent need to need three. You'll and don't communicate with the model with the engineer to getting to understand where I think there's going to be potential problems or wearing a certification on a model. Uh, and uh, and I think it's a really good way to truncate everything. And so on, in one location, instead of having a set of engineers, planes printed out that is separate to your architectural construction drawings. Uh, having an exalted one model enables you to figure out whether you get a native bulkhead or you know, whether you can to Kappa and Dan, upstate, Isil, whatever you need to do. You find an engineered. It's doing, parked out in projects that are probably less likely to work. We do a lot of sketchup. However, father, good angel, bad once Mike and name for himself and once we get more customers understand how to put their engineered or they required sealant. Sort of a three day model is raising the age for them and more importantly I think Dan will track it takes a little bit the issues at the projects as far as gear connect. Definitely we always say on pay day integrated project delivery and the idea behind that being that if you have one central thread, a model that's filled with everything, so all the information that all projects by coders need know the architectural to the structural to the cost and you know, even the manufacturers specifications. Then there's going to be less era. And I think that in the podcast or the episodes that we've had before, one of the recurring things that we're hearing particularly from the builders and contractors is that they're able to sides so much money. And in fact it's way that I'm able to recruit so much of their money by making sure that the structural engineer's drawings and the architectural align and then not having any problems. Well, look, one of the jobs I was doing, I was actually designing myself from scratch. However, it wouldn't be projects that came through that were someone who was recommended to me by number climb that already been designed and engineered, already delivered a set of planes and I basically just had to play it on those jobs. And, and uh, for me, I said what I would do, I'd get sort of trace over my walls, uh, put my walls up and then I would go and putting the engineering according to the planes. And it's amazing how many times actually when I started in steel brains and how there is between the architectural in Geneva and use you as due to the fact that the architect or the designer had updated these planes and the engineer the aversion. Regardless if you're going into the Cardigan job, especially on a fixed price, you can lose a lot of money just for that. The state, and it's not even new on the site. However, when it actually comes to construction, even though you might be able to back charge, I'm the client and putting a variation. If you can get through a job without a variation because you, it was something to stops, um, number one, you're going to get through that job. Stainless, they say that to stall railroad of new seal and number two, a, you can actually better in front of a client and get more recommendations. I was handed a ever do marketing somewhere, construction company. All I ever did the best job I could possibly do for the least amount of money so that I was taught my profit at the same time as having a happy customer and cheesy. But the truth is, is that when you can achieve that Vara integrating the project delivery or, or even as a builder, putting steel planes and checking everything before you got ahead, that cost, it needs more than I could explain in, in, in, in just the cost of reordering material or tom down on the job is uncertainty about the job. I'm certain that I can run my doctor or I can. Don't worry about a steel column going through the center of the window because of the design challenge. So the best thing you get out of that in the engineering to a project is definitely consequences. We can build this job and time, time, time is always the issue. So the question that always gets asked is how long is this going to tight? Isn't he's going to take too long for me to have to pull up the structural engineer's drawings? Well, no, not really because you're getting more out of it, but just an understanding. You're getting a bill of quantities. Um, you know, if you know how much it's gonna cost you for that engineering before you actually have to end up front quite. He probably decided to him the guy. So for instance, and you're probably not a way, but practice it down a, a jump to say a fireman truss supplier. Send them out a set of plans and then they send you back, you know, it might be a joyous slander someone or something like that. And you send it to three different companies. When it comes back, it could be two or$3,000 difference in price. If you choke the cheapest price, it's a pretty good chance that what you get back isn't the same as the other price. Uh, and Oh, we'll have been included. The sentiment of material. The best thing about adding the engineering and doing your own enjoy slack is actually what you say in this project. There are 540 lineal meters of total, but two or 300 bucks, 45 choice made the, what they're doing is they're actually quoting on apples for apples instead of actually just offering. They'll play into the white ICC has been sending back and living out different articles or Iranians. Um, so even though I guess it was, I assumed that anyone that's listening to this anyway, we probably already been muddling up the context whether they support and communication estimating or a better understanding or communication between client a subcontractor and, and that being the case, well then it would take nothing. So for instance, to put in, I did a job, we have to die for one of the larger construction companies in Sydney. And uh, it was one of the first projects and I actually went and built it and I got a coach from the construction and just I said, Hi Andrew, this is a nightmare. We've backseat, he's ready to draw it up. And it got dropped down floors and everything like that. And I said, look, I'll take a quick look at it for you. And probably within the first 45 minutes I'd modeled the ground floor, the first floor, put the joists in and sit down everything they say, oh Alex, he told me that it was over$150,000 worth of variations to do these as million dollar house. Um, because when they drew it, I drew it and they looked at it from the top plan down and I could still veins in there. We're in line with the top of the full. They took a joyous hang azine and hung out with in this deal and nothing works. So by the time they actually sorted out all these problems on site, uh, I think they had a two month delay to build this project. One hundred$50,000 in unexpected variations of the estimate is and pick up because they have some until people now. For me, I was always doing custom, has never built the same house twice. So it was important for me to do that. I think. So at least if they're doing the sign outside of the most important thing to do would be to model that house before you go into the third song, why don't you replicating or you might be doing exchanges, resisting the zones. It's very quick. I think that anyone is petitioning pasta should be able to add an extended living room or drop a floor down or anything like that within probably a male. Um, so when it comes down to time, yes, there is some associated, but there's time associated with everything when it comes to a problem on site and he's got a piece of steel that's four inches or 100 million to short, just the time it takes you to organize that steel to show up, figure out whose problem was you're looking at four or five hours plus the costs. Uh, that is very different to Chad. So I think it's an advantage to be sticking your engineering and I've never done the job without putting the engineering in my project. Yeah, and that sounds like something that you talked about often design change, consideration based on cost. Can you explain that a little bit more and even your process, because I know that for example, you've done tutorials where when you're designing, you know the maximum spans materials and see always keeping that in mind, what's the process and how can, how can even an architect or designer or build a do that before even going to the structural engineer? Well look, I'll that on new standard every material, but I'd be lying, you know, I've got an understanding of I know that at 300 will span six made is a full 50 joint center. But you know what I would know what a$200 Joyce would do off the top of my head. So. So my process is number one going and get some of that. A drawing software, as I said, you can get on the phone or essentially all you're doing is going brought in or what's the maximum standard your project? It'd be very unusual to have international ass having given of swollen Joyce. Probably a custom house would, but normally what I do is I guess what I'm figuring out what's the largest span of having the project. And uh, even though obviously I'm going to bring a structural engineering and all, I'd probably John Drawing a couple of phases to where I think you're right. I would think I'm putting on my joyce and maximum span for, to. There's a thing called a Virginia thing ratio, which is the map for Joyce things. Um, so I would go and work out. If you're doing a higher end house, usually you, you'd have the rigidity, right? Share would be one point five would be kind of minimum. So you don't have noise, easels and squeezed it falls and things like that. However, prior to title companies use run down to one point two, which means the joy stance more. And the cornice is cracking so on. So depending on the quality of time that you're building, you would probably utilize a third party software to figure out or what maximum standard is and how that would work. Once you know the size of your joist, uh, you guys are south to model and what I would do is our guest room along the spans. I'm not spice Andreas posts together, uh, uh, and where I have joyce going over several walls but are just basically using the heart of that Joyce on span that the Joyce had a different styling to reduce costs of other assets getting too technical. But basically you put a floor joist together, uh, the federal will stand and let's dance get. So there's a little bit of understanding and that, and you know, I don't believe that that's a job for the architect and engineers and architect did tackle that. The building would probably change it anyway. Um, in an ideal world or joyce with 600 spices because it's easy to get your plumbing and everything through. I think probably say for users, the biggest thing I look for when I'm putting floor joists and instructional, stealing these, the locations of a my air conditioning in the locations of my toilets so that I don't have a toilet suite brown, Roger in the center of the structure of. So structural bay. Yeah, because really the goal to the devil's in the detail and so for me, I totally agree with what you're saying because the problem with two d drawings is that everyone is guessing and I've. I know from personal experience and also from talking with architects and designers specifically, that they might be sending the designs in the traditional two d format, but the instructional engineers to when they need to translate it well, that's really good that I got a sketch out actually now make their mobile application on tablets and on a smartphone and free. So it doesn't matter if your engineer doesn't have a sketch up. Basically you can send him the model. He over the phone or tablet and you can just put it in their engineering things and he'll know exactly what you're talking about on a mobile device. Even if he decides he's going to draw Hagen today, which you do hope these days doesn't happen that often you communicating and I think the communication is under utilized because essentially what this survey moment is doing is it's one went on to zoning. It's helping me understand what are these under the zoning and the implications, but it's also helping the people downstairs, so downstream. So I used to get my, my trainees to come into my office and just sit there and it was on the Friday afternoon with a couple of schools or obeys. Um, we just sit around and talk about it. Uh, and you know, sometimes you say that light bulb moment or what he apprentices, anyone who's got apprentices or had apprentices would understand the first few years as a carpentry apprenticeship can be frustrating because I just don't tend to get it. However, when you, uh, communicate, uh, to that level to an apprentice, you say the light bulb come on and then all of a sudden you go, wow. Then I take it higher and they start playing with it and you can have furnaces making suggestions. I actually signing my apprentices off a year early because they understood the project and I think it was partly due to the fact that when we communicated with them, that's awesome to hear. Although this next question isn't really anything to do with structural engineering or like having the structural engineers involved. I think that the big thing that I'm getting from this is as always about ending the disconnect and that's what we're all about is trying to say how can every single person from the beginning of the design all the way to the passing over that we're handing over the keys. How can we make sure we are working together better so that we can have every single one of us have a better result and walk away with less mistakes, better reputation, better referrals, and obviously some more money in the pocket. There's actually one that I want to talk about that that we've been trying to raise in the last few weeks and that is another point of disconnect and that's nominal versus actual and I think it kind of does relate to this topic because it is structural. Can you kind of dive into that and talk about it? Okay. Look what nominal timber is in America. It'd be a two by four would be a standard done in a, in and in Australia. Used to back in those days, we didn't actually kill him dry and safeness 10 bucks. So a patient for timber and also send me a, uh, imperial by the time that kiln dried and then they ran into a thickness, either had an Asian size from one bites in attendance of the Aba. Uh, it actually took off 10 eliminate is, uh, so. So even though it might've been called a piece of timber, it was actually a 90 mil or in the US, three and a half inches. Any architects or any builders actually tried to build a house when the architect or designers used normal sizing, wouldn't be very frustrated to the point where, you know, same comes out of movies and charter stuff because what happened to the plant as a hundred mil, however, we're dealing with naughty middle timber. And so if you're building it on site, you've got to figure out, okay, I'm going to go always to the outside and then they don't get into all my internal walls going to be 10 millimeters long, got longer and the sites anyhow I can take the design of it still designing roles at 100 Mil, you can apply in Australia, you can get a special note of it. Your phone. I was really a, it was one of the biggest costs to me or cause of era when a dishonor withdrawals that are nominal. And so as I said, the original source of, of a place of four inch timber in Australia was 100 millimeters. Architects and designers always. She strolled in woolen 100 millimeters and and that's how we build and we the male was 90 millimeters and three inches, 70 million. That is a really important that, that any architects and designers that are not. They understand that this is artist we're building from A. There's a blog post on it through the week. We'll see you on that saw today about Nolan. Nolan. Actual really, really sad to say the people still draw walls and four inches. I don't understand why, and I can only assume that possibly they're aligned to the Saudi plus the internal line. Uh, however that just throws everything into chaos. All your rooms on this, this will be different if you have a wool site or 10 made a long by 10 meter wide house and you had cod walls down one side, one more on the officer side. Ready estopped from, you know, where did you seek her out? How I'm going to mark those balls out, control balls on the ground. And even still, it's just not me. Anyone listening, stuck, putting no money in Nasdaq access, draw a structure. I'm actually getting fairly passionate about this because I do think to me there's, there's two big things that are happening. First and foremost, I think that unless you're building, you might not be aware of it, which is what do you think is extremely important that if you are an architect or designer, that you do spend some time on site. Secondly, I do think that it should be part of the education process anyway. We under, we need to understand fundamentals of structure to be able to design better and so therefore it's an education thing, but I also think that a lot of the systems that have been set up and like this is having a dig it out. Competitors now I think they perpetuate and maybe it's because they're not fogged industry. Yeah, no, I was adamant about solving that problem because it had cost me tens of thousands of dollars throughout my construction career and when I was calvin and I'm still flabbergasted and what they will do it. But um, yeah, in and you have the opportunity to really do want to draw a true orange wall because she might be doing the house. It's 40 years old. You have the capacity to do it, however you're owning a, an extension on top of an old house, little or sending the back area. I'm putting an amazing room on it. You can't go down to the local supply hardware support, tangled timber merchant and purchase for an assembler anymore. So you might draw the existing house with the old forage a all six inch or whatever they bought, stop it, they join existing house, delete the roles that you're going to hold them down as demolition and then stopped during the new half and sizes of lumber that you can purchase today. Uh, and that would all, and you're saying across states is called the actual size. Nothing. Yeah. And that actually leads on to the other thing that we've been speaking about recently too, and trying to educate is the way to dimension and why Pacific, because that's often, for example, we have architects and designers and builders and contractors reach out and say, you know, why, why do you put so much emphasis on structure inside of prospect? Why is it there at all? And obviously it comes back to what we're talking about now because structure is, is integral in, in information for architects and designers anyway. Um, often you will need design to structure. You would need include the finish materials in the drawings, especially back in the old days with, with ordinary can. Um, but what I do see in what we're, we are hearing more and more is incorrect dimensioning and we always push forward that people should be dimensioned instruction instruction. I say, what's your thoughts on that? Or you have anything to say to the double break or, or a, or a briefing with a cavity. We always feel from structure first, uh, on site in a set scale up, you'll notice they always put the concrete down, the timber frames out the second story floor, enjoy south second story roles. Uh, and now we know it today. Sometimes I went through the roof on it, so the bricklayers scaffold up, but we stopped building from the structure always exist for holds the roof up and that's what holds the roof down. And we dimensioning from finish to finish. This doesn't make sense. You want to try and mitigate era and make it as easy or simple for the duty of contractor is possible. And clearly they're going to be starting from structure first. So there are obviously some circumstances with the finish to finish, maybe required, but I would suggest nonconventional attendance instruction, a structure if you imagine how you're building it. It's actually the way we developed it. I didn't look at what I can read, you know, and I simply frustrated and I didn't have the time to learn that, but I'm going take the person, but it wasn't allowing me to design the way I built. Never. I couldn't use my builders Brian or carpenters background to design a project. So I had that kind of clarifies a little bit of maybe why some things out. The sign is I can get into. They're not famous river for. I guess my answer to that is that I hadn't quit file buggered off ever get that aren't necessarily that actually designed the way it could build. Yeah. And for me it is about making sure that it benefits all of the industry. So you're using a tool that benefits the design process, but then you're also using a tool that benefits the durability or the the construction of the project. And I think that that's why we're doing this podcast is why we create the software is because that, that has been, and there is so much disconnect between person to person, professional to professional, and I do think it's all about communication. Yeah, there shouldn't be an officer versus a shouldn't be architects versus builders. We compliment each other very, very well. And uh, you'll, you'll know when you talked to her, a build of it as a good architect. When you talk to an architect that hasn't container builders, they go out of the white to recommend them. The closer the relationship can come between design world in the construction world, the better leven. And yes, I understand that there are differences, uh, architects, uh, clean over time and, you know, forgive this, like to be right all the time. So it takes out there. Um, the truth is, is that in your head when you designed a project, do you understand it? I think a lot of the frustration comes in from the builders. They don't see your vision all day. Looking at is how do I put this team together? A IBCD yes, it has, is the rod inside of the brain and the left hand side of the brain, they and built projects that have been designed by architects and they're better than any project or Zombie itself. So I have a lot of respects and good architects and designers. However, I think that needs to be the same in reverse. A good architect and designer should have a lot of respect for a good builder or a good carpenter, a good trades person. I think they're on an equal level. Um, uh, because I've seen crappy dealers and crappy job desserts I wouldn't employee and I think that most people that are going down the track of where we are, and I think we've reached us of five and a half thousand licenses a couple of weeks ago. Most of those people were held dance on the better of what they do. Um, and that's a really good thing to see. So I think if a builder comes to an acting today, I'm using this software and plastic, it doesn't matter if you're using cad. I think that even just getting a version of sketchup and then understanding where they're coming from, if you can deliver to a builder or a Tradesperson what they actually need to message of easier. I'm confident that I would implore you time and time and time again, we want to get involved in drawing. It's just that necessity brought me to creating software, um, because I wasn't getting from the architect. What I made is not. I think that once that understanding is clear and the communication is clear between all facets of the industry, not only architects, engineers and builders, I think manufacturers as well play a big part. Uh, I think we don't really say what we've been talking about for so long, but I'm totally not. I think the five percent is to be scoffed at know I think that if you're building at the moment, you're doing it all from today. Either your brilliance at dishonoring to the planes better than I am, but I think that it is not unreasonable to expect a 10 percent net profit gay. That's after all costs. So on a zillow jump, you should be looking at at another$10 to$100,000 if you're doing this right, if you're investing your time correctly. And it's very difficult to limit how much dementia got to figure out every single problem that can come up in the projects they did, writing that project delivery from design through engineering to construction solves those problems because she can see them in front of you. Most definitely. So there's one other thing that has come up, drew, and it's come up several times over the last, probably 20 times over the last, uh, year, uh, and architect sort of said, hey, some, a little bit on the easy that way and keeping a drawings that have structure behind them to the, to the builder because we're worried about litigation. Um, were worried that what we've drawn in there is incorrect and the opposite of that age that comes down to contracts and integrated project delivery has distinct benefits, especially if you have a contract that is worded accordingly. So really the architect and designers job is designed to suit the client briefs or whatever that might be. However, it isn't to to design structure, you can still share your model with structure in it or you need to do in your contract is actually go through and say, by the way, this is not a structural drawing, this is a design concepts head is and the reason why we're sharing the mold for the builder to go through and change things or change directions or do what they wanted to and it's very easy to overcome that boundary of being concerned about being litigated. A, especially in a concept design. And I would say my advice to all architects and designers, the same old structuring inside of this model. It's conceptual and it's a preliminary, uh, estimation reasons only, um, saying you know, if it's an integrated project delivery, um, changes, everything should be sort of fun for an engineer or a nurse or a qualified person. You'll notice it in. Plus it has that the down there as well. Yeah, great point. Unfortunately though, I do think it's time that we wrapped up. So thank you for joining me today. Thanks very much for coming along guys. A ipos of health, and we'll be talking again soon. Geez.
Speaker 2:Well, unfortunately that's the end of another episode of the architects builders from Dana's podcast. If you would like to take part, don't hesitate to reach out, but before we go, I would also like to thank our gold sponsors, builders. Prophets provides coaching and training to the building industry. No matter where you live in the world is a lightweight stay in place. Formwork system, which when filled with concrete producers are load bearing, fire resistant structural element, and strum. It is a leading Australian manufacturer of roll formed steel building products. See you next time.