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Anybody Everybody Tottenham
Anybody Everybody Tottenham
Go Big or Go Home, Tallie from Turning Earth
In today's episode I talk to Tallie, the founder of the first open access ceramic studio in the UK - Turning Earth. We talk about her passion for making pottery and art accessible to everyone and not just professional artists, her strategies to get the crowdfunding started and the ups and downs throughout the pandemic. Tallie is an incredibly inspiring and humble entrepreneur.
Turning Earth website: https://www.turningearth.org/n22
Turning Earth instagram: https://www.instagram.com/turning_earth/
Turning Earth twitter: https://twitter.com/TurningEarthUK
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Jamila 0:05
Hi I'm Jamila and anybody everybody Tottenham is a bi monthly podcast, introducing the good people of Tottenham to you. Today I'm talking to Tallie who is the founder of turning Earth, the first UK Open Access ceramic studio. By now they've opened 3 or 4 as we're speaking. And I feel a bit this episode is a bit like "how I built this" It's really nice to hear Tallie's passion about equal access, but also slightly spiritual approach to pottery. I hope you're gonna enjoy it. So today on the pod, we have Tallie from turning Earth. Thank you very much for joining me. Hi. Okay, Tallie. So what is your connection to Tottenham?
Tallie 0:58
Well, I've lived here for about, say eight years now.
Jamila 1:03
Yeah, where were you before?
Tallie 1:05
So when I grew up, I grew up some of the time in Crouch End and some of the time in Rutland in you know, in the Midlands, I then lived in various parts of the world in my 20s, my late 20s, and spent about four years in the US. And then when I came back, I came back to Crouch End. And I opened my first business in England, in in East London in Hackney. But I was living in Crouch End and then subsequently moved over to Tottenham. I moved into a house next door to my brother, who I run the business with. So the two of us in Tottenham in Bruce ... next to Bruce Castle, which is, I think, the most beautiful part of Tottenham.
Jamila 1:51
You said you opened your first studio in East London. So how come you didn't move to East London but decided to move to this area?
Tallie 2:01
Well, as I said, I mean, I I was born in born in Haringey, one of the few people that were born in Haringeycause there's no, there's no hospital in Haringey, but my mom gave birth to me in Haringey. So, you know, I definitely have always been from here. So when I came back to England, I went to stay with friends of mine, really, that was it just like so in the kind of Crouch end side. And I guess felt like it'd be safer to open up in East London to do creative business. Because you know, there's lots of creatives there. And the first time you do something you want to go where you think that most people are going to try it, because I had no idea if it would work or not. I mean, I literally had no idea Turning Earth was the first studio in the UK to do what we do. There's been lots that have followed since but we were the first so I didn't know what was going to work. So I chose the most well connected most, let's say hipster part of part of the city. And you know, it was very, very successful there. But I was at the time, I couldn't even drive and I was commuting on my bicycle, often late at night, carrying this building material around, but I was commuting from Crouch End. And yeah, and then my brother moved to Tottenham, which is, you know, I think it's an obvious place, if you're trying to find a place that's affordable from Crouch End. That's kind of this is the kind of area you look at. And I think since then it's, you know, probably had a lot of people who maybe were priced out of, like East London, like, you know, the kind of Central East London or or from crouch end so I think that, you know, but I've definitely fallen in love with it since then.
Jamila 3:47
Okay, so you're already hinted at certain things. So let's start with the beginning. How did your love for pottery start?
Tallie 3:55
Well, my, my mom is very creative. And she, she always had a wheel in our sitting room. And we had a kiln in our conservatory. And she made pottery classes happen in our schools on the weekend. And so she's, you know, I now work with two of my brothers in the in the studio. So they all had the same background, but all of us were made made (!) to do it. We hated it "oh my god pottery, pottery class". But then I was working in corporate responsibility as a consultant in my 20s After I left university, because I really wanted to change the world. You know, as you all do, I wanted to solve global climate change. And I realized that making big companies think about themselves wasn't going to do the trick. Like it wasn't doing it, because I felt very, very, kind of shut down inside. And anyway, in that in that time, I went and did a pottery class at Hackney Community College, and I just had an incredible like, felt like a mystical experience like quite a download, feeling like I'd done this for lifetimes and lifetimes and different genders and different ages of myself, you know, like it was just it was one of those experiences you can't really put into words without sounding silly. And I yeah, I just felt really connected with something much deeper inside myself. And that, that was part of the whole process that kind of took me over to the US like, I kind of felt like I almost got lifted into a kind of magical Carpet Ride of some kind. I met a novelist who I'd known at university, we reconnected and I went over to briefly marry him to stay in the US. And it was all a very wild love affair. And he was writing novels. And I was feeling like I had to be more myself. So I ended up at Stanford University, using the studio there, which was not for artists, it was for anybody. So it had lots of Google, kind of tech type people, like engineers are all coming. And they were like making this work that was really, really, really technically competent, because of this culture of practice. Being a hobby, it was fine to practice, like, there's no, you know, because people did at school in the US. So it was, it was normal to continue as a hobby, and not to have to be an artist. And, okay, it's like you had to be an artist and go to the RCA or do to be the right person to fit the right box. And there's just something that felt so dead to me about that approach to art and craft. So then when I felt this in the US, you know, it's like, these were people technically brilliant at ceramics and that's not the thing that they were doing. And I just, so I used to get up really early, cycled to this, you know, this pottery studio, on the edge of the dried up Lake, you know, in Stanford University (????) big, blue flowers all outside, and hummingbirds come into like feed off them. I would get there before anyone was there. And it was quite a new studio. And you know, this feeling that I'd got in the in Hackney community college and my first class on the wheel, I just had the same feeling of like, just, you know, being where I was meant to be in the life I was meant to have, and everything being right. And I realized I couldn't live in a place where you couldn't have that experience anymore. And for me, that was the pottery studio. So I just committed if I came back to the UK at that point, that that's what I was going to do that was going to bring this kind of culture of open access, don't have to be an artist doesn't matter why you're there, ceramics. And you know, in that, in that period, I made everything from my kitchen, you know, I made all the bowls and the plantes and like, I never wanted to be a professional artist, I'm always much more interested in systems and people and change and how to fix social change and how to shift our culture. That's my thing. But for me that came through learning not to continue to do this to get that which I think is a cultural problem. We've got that we try and make something happen for ourselves by doing something we don't like doing what's inside turning Earth inside our brand I guess it's that desire for revolution and for change. But you know,
Jamila 8:09
On some level though, it started with your your mom, isn't that you said she, she was running pottery classes. So clearly, that was also not an elitist thing, but to try and get more people into it. So how did you feel about this? That you following your mom's steps? Did she see it this way? Did she try to be like, Oh, you see, I got you onto this path. Or
Tallie 8:34
my mom is a very unique lady. I would say that she's not got that kind of ego around. She is probably the the most creative person I've ever met. She's like a genius. I mean, she and mostly knits and her color, her perception of color seems to be much more strongly developed than most people's I think that can be genetic, that you can actually see more color. But yes, she never stopped making anything. And I will always be in awe of what my mother can do. visually. So no, I would. I am proud to say that despite you know, it wasn't an easy childhood. You know, we had a lot of problems when when we were young, like it wasn't, no my mum had to face about my father died when when I was only four and she had three small children. And she she didn't find any of that very easy. So I feel like the redeeming the great redeeming thing in our whole family system is this kind of relationship with creativity that she absolutely enabled and inspired in all of us so yeah. You know,
Jamila 9:40
How did your brothers - you said you work with them - how did they then come into their love again of pottery?
Tallie 9:48
I'm not sure I would say this is a controversial thing to say. I wouldn't call it a great love of pottery. I think what's the Interesting, my brother, my older brother, who's the one who came in first, I've started the first turning earth at this point in Hoxton. But he'd always been advising me and helping me with being a catering for, you know, crowdfunding parties and things like that. But he is he was working as a nurse, and he didn't really like being a nurse, I don't think but he had then got into management, not you know, just in the nursing field, it's very, very, you have to be very careful about risk and, you know, managing risk very carefully. So I wanted to have the support of somebody who was very, very diligent when it came to safety, because there are issues around you know, clay, and particularly the dust involved in clay and how you manage that. And I noticed that most studios that I'd seen in the UK were far too dusty, and most people I was working with, their approach was not clean enough for my for my liking, having been in the US where the culture is much more, much more rigid in terms of what you're allowed to do, I think, you know, just in terms of studio management, just the standard was much higher. So it felt really important to work with somebody who had that kind of background, who's good at managing people making sure that things happen, right. So you know, but Louis, since then, has really flown because he's somebody who likes to learn. So he's learned to disassemble a kiln, put it back together, he then trained to be an electrician, so he could do all of that kind of work as a plumber, so he can plumb everything together, because all of our systems are quite. So I think he doesn't love the clay so much as the technical knowledge that goes in it. And he's also very interested in glaze mixing and, and the kind of chemistry of it. So he's, he's more of a kind of practical scientist, in a way. So I think that suits him. But he,
Jamila 11:47
what a wonderful combination, though, to work together. And so how did it then start you hinted at crowdfunding talk me through the process of establishing it. So you had the idea? And then what did you do next?
Tallie 12:04
Well, so I had the idea, I was living in the US with this novelist who was, we would go down every morning to sit in a coffee shop where he would write his 1000 words, and I felt like I had to do something. So I actually started turning Earth while I was living in Brooklyn, and going to sit in coffee shops. And I recognized because I was studying other people's successful crowdfunding campaigns, there was a organization that was crowdfunding online, and they were called the bicycle Academy. I think it was the bicycle Academy. And they've done a really successful crowdfunding campaign. So I studied that. He'd done a blog post about how to do a successful crowdfunding campaign. And you know, you hit the, you hit the ground running, that's the important thing. So you have to build the build the audience first. And so I started working on that, you know, on Facebook, in those days, a few dollars would get you quite far. So I was paying to advertise this Facebook page, to people that are interested in ceramics. So all the way over from Brooklyn, that's what I was doing, and getting this community together, and then serving them and asking them questions about that, what they would like, and you know, what, whether there was a need, and I found that there really was and before long, I had 70 people that said, if we open this thing, I would, they would sign up and join and I was okay, that's enough, I know that there's a need for this now. So then it took quite a long time to find the place and then, but then we did. And then we found this great space. And then it fell apart, and I'd find another great space, and then it would turn out to fall apart. Then we eventually found the one that it was going to be we had a big event where people come and see the next door neighbor's studios, actually. So this was in a complete mess. It wasn't really to be seen by anybody. But we put on a big event where people come and we sold out, you know, we hit our targets within 48 hours really smashed through them all. And so it became quite a story. And we won the crowd funder Hall of Fame for that. And you know, and the trajectory of turning earth hoxton has been the same ever since you know, it's always been very popular. People wait long waiting lists to get into it. And it's a lovely place. So, you know,
Jamila 14:17
And then the pandemic hit?
Tallie 14:19
Yes. but we opened in Leyton? First, we opened another studio before that happened. But yes, then the pandemic hit. Yeah. Yeah. And I
Jamila 14:26
yeah, looking at your website, I thought you wrote a really thoughtful, nuanced piece about what happened during the pandemic, you know, both people discovering their love of crafting, but also the restrictions that meant they couldn't go into the studio maybe had to do it themselves. And also you discovering how loyal your community was, and how supportive before you got government funding to help you. Yeah,
Tallie 14:57
yeah, it was it was tremendously difficult time for me personally, because I was about 24 weeks pregnant and had had 24 hour, extreme nausea. So it wasn't quite as bad as the Duchess of Cambridge, but I don't think I've ever been physically so tortured in my life. It went on and on and on. Just as this was beginning, subside 24 weeks, it became apparent to me that on the current trajectory, I was going to have to make everyone redundant and possibly go bankrupt. Nothing has ever been quite so traumatic, I think in terms of my work life anyway, I kind of hit rock bottom in a way and then then started started to just you know, when life throws you lemons, you have to make lemonade somehow. And actually, I quite like that process. But I was quite amazed at that point, you know, first, first the furlough scheme was announced, and I have to say, you know, whatever's going on in our current, you know, Tory leadership election, I'm not a Tory, by the way, but Rishi Sunak response to that with the furlough scheme was absolutely integral to the survival of small businesses at the times, but then, you know, our members, they kept paying, I was just amazed, I just couldn't believe I couldn't believe really, that we could get through that. And it the resilience of the small community like that, you know, that's partly what makes you resilient, isn't it? The care that people have always had for Turning Earth, I guess, but and, you know, even more, so a lot of them decided not to pay that money back, when we gave them the option later on, when we realized that we we were going to be okay, and that the government funding had had to cover a lot of a lot of it, but they that they then decided to donate the money that we owed them to our hardship funds, so that we could use the money to look at how to help other people who don't have the funds and the financial background to come into turning Earth in it or to get into ceramics in various ways. So you know, that that was also tremendous, it created the basis for this wonderful, you know, opportunity, we have to then reach out to other people. There's a few different ways that we're now going to do that that's been enabled by that by that fund. So you know, it
Jamila 17:23
Well, this sounds interesting. Could you tell me a bit more about this hardship fund?
Tallie 17:27
Yeah. So basically, we had this whole thing on their way out of the pandemic, we did, you know, bit of programming called out the ashes, and then phoenix from the ashes and creativity in crisis, that was the thing, it's because creativity does come out of crisis, that's been my experience of it, how do you respond these difficult things? And that, you know, that's always been the case, you know, back right back to my childhood, a lot of crisis and creativity, I guess. And so then, we had this out of the ashes programming, and then, you know, what, what are we going to do? What are we going to create from here that we wouldn't have had otherwise? How do we turn / make this into lemonade? And one of the things I've always wanted, and I've been very conscious about, you know, when I came back from the US, I realized there was a market for these kinds of privately run Community studios in the UK, which there hadn't been before, because we used to have state funding of further education, which kind of filled the same void, I don't think as well, but it filled the same gap but that got cut but unfortunately, with that cutting means that all the money that was used to subsidize people who are on you know, benefits et cetera, was was not available. So all these wonderful, privately funded, you know, arts organizations, which aren't taking money from the state, which I think it's important, but then you end up with a kind of division between who's accessing it. So there's, you know, as somebody who spent some time some time myself in childhood in foster care, I felt very much that, you know, it's really important to treat people like they're the same no matter what their background is. So, and also, you know, quality of education has always been really, really important to me. So one of the things that we're going to do is to find ways to develop a teacher training program that will enable teachers in schools to use the equipment they've got, one of the reasons people can't have ceramics in school is because as soon as a kiln breaks, but most teachers who haven't got any support, don't have to change the elements or to, to like to diagnose what the problem is. And so they have to spend hundreds of pounds getting a technician out. What, what we're aware of is that that's the barrier for having the existing resources not being used in schools, if we can, you know, extend what my brother's done, which is to create a very highly developed system for dealing with our own kilns. All of our technicians get trained in if we can then extend that knowledge to people who are, you know, in classrooms?
Jamila 20:04
Yeah, I like it. So you would quite like to make it more common for secondary schools to to run?
Tallie 20:12
Yeah, I think the reason that we the reason why I do clay now is because I did it when I was younger. And I think what the reason that so many people in the US did it is because it's something that they learned to love to do when they were young. And also, that's when you reach for me, it feels really important not to just reach middle class children with pushy parents. And I think that the way that you do that is by reaching everybody, like if you're going to, if you're going to try and find ways to get disadvantaged people on board, you don't go Have you got sort of thing about foster care, nobody wants to be that person who's like, "let me find a disadvantaged person oh you are disadvantaged2. But if you can put it into a situation where it normalizes it for everybody to do it. Or you break through those barriers, because you know, it doesn't matter where you're from, if you can get it in school, then those few people who were going to go Yeah, and love doing this are going to get that opportunity. Whereas otherwise, it's going to be people whose parents care about it. And it will only be, you know,
Jamila 21:10
During the pandemic, then you decided, okay, this was really stressful, and I'm highly pregnant. I really would like, more stress in my life. So let me start opening another studio.
Tallie 21:23
Well, you know, I mean, go big or go home, right? Like, I actually what happened during the pandemic is that I started fighting for our survival. And then I started fighting for the survival of lots of other small businesses that were getting screwed over as why it was mentioning the furlough scheme it wasn't just Turning earth I was doing lots of advocacy and lots of work with small, independent organizations that were helping small businesses, including the East End trades guild and gardens of the arches, that the work that we were doing together, there was really important to me. And I just got my mojo back in a way. I mean, I like things to be hard. That's it. So you say the recession and people are gonna not want to do craft? I just don't think that way. I'm like, okay, how am I going to make people want to craft during a recession? I like, it gets too easy. I think this is a classic entrepreneurial traid, if it gets easy, I get bored, and then I get depressed. I like things to be, you know, like, when everything's in turmoil, then that's where the creativity happens. Right? That's when anything's possible. So, yeah, I also when everyone's losing their heads, you know, oh, no, it's going to be, that's when I think, "ah, you know, that's just ... " you know, I think, I think those of us who have been given a lot of struggle, as I said, in childhood, you learn, you learn to, I love this. I really love it, but I only love it when I'm really going all out. So I'm gonna go all out again. So that's with our opening in Highgate as well. So, next month,
Jamila 22:59
you're going to open another one in Highgate?
Tallie 23:02
Yeah. We doubled? We didn't just get one more we doubled. Yeah.
Jamila 23:07
Love it. So tell me a little bit about how does it work? Because I've looked at the website, so people need to do a course, or show that they have some basics, and then they can become members. Or?
Tallie 23:20
Well, I mean, we really just like people to realize they only have to have done a course to be ready to be a member, but to be a member, but quite frankly, you can be a member and do a course at the same time, or get some private tuition. The main thing is, I think what what makes people feel unable to do ceramics on their own isn't so much the process of making a piece it's it's more like how do you do the firing and choose the clay for the firing cycle and, you know, the glazing and we do all of that side for our members so that they can just, they it's all quite simple. So pretty much a beginner can function as a member as soon as you just know how to clean the studio after yourself and not to put like dark glaze in the white glaze body. Like, sorry, the glaze or, you know, there's there's a, there's a few things that you need to learn. They're not very complicated, but we we take all of those things and we just want to make sure that people know how to do that and feel confident. But quite frankly, we've had plenty of people become members who just did a you know, a couple of hours of private tuition. But mostly we put that on the website more to say to people you don't need to be an artist be a member here. You don't need to know what you're doing you could have attended one course that will do that's fine, you know?
Jamila 24:35
Yeah. And are there different types of membership? How does it work?
Tallie 24:41
memberships pretty much the same doesn't matter that so well, we have we have got a separate studio in Leyton, which is just for professional artists. So people who want to have a different kind of membership can go there if they want to be there all the time. And then you know, mix them by their own kilns, that kind of thing. But in turning earth - no it's all the same Um, you know, the price varies slightly depending on how much you pay upfront or how you know how long a contract you commit to just like in a gym. But the actual amount is the same for everybody. I'm back with the egalitarian principle, I believe in everybody getting the same fitting really.
Jamila 25:17
So let's have some top tips from Tallie. Lots of Ts here top tips Tallie
Tallie 25:25
Top tips from tallie about Tottenham. Yeah, I think the thing that I love most about Tottenham, actually is my local park. And on the edge of my local park, there is the Antwerp Arms, which is one of the few community owned pubs in the country, and one of the earliest ones, and it's really a wonderful place because now they've got tables outside on the edge of the park. So if you're a parent, like I am, you can sit and have a drink outside your pub on the edge of the park and have the kids playing around playing football, and Hide and Seek and being really safe as you can see them. And you know, that's really starting to take off. So you'll now find that particularly on a Friday night, you arrive there, there'll be loads and loads of other people doing the same thing, which means that the kids have got someone to talk to, you've got someone to talk to you. And it's really festival like by the most beautiful, beautiful part of Tottenham.
Jamila 26:35
Okay, any other places to eat?
Tallie 26:40
I well, I always love to go to Perkins, and on what was that on? West
Jamila 26:48
Green Road
Tallie 26:49
West Green Road, it got a lovely piece of design, you know, people that the owner of that has built it with his own hands. And it shows and that's something that's close to my heart, making it all with your own hands, I am trying to encourage him to come to turning earth and make all his plates because I think that's what he should do next.
Jamila 27:06
I saw that you got a course to make tiles which, which was very exciting for me. Because I'm a half Moroccan. So tile design is my yeah, like I always dreamt of doing that.
Tallie 27:24
I thin k it's you know, tiles are something that even people who are really experienced makers can find quite difficult because getting them to dry flat because clay likes to retain the shape that it's had before. So if you've wiggled it around, it will go back to that when it dries out. So learning, there's some few like, you know, very simple things you can do that make tiles absolutely work brilliantly every time but you have to learn them. So we've learned them from one of the most experienced tile makers, you know, that I've met, he was in the studio for a long time. And those secret tips have got passed around the you know, the network people who love making flatware. And now we're going to share them with anyone who wants to learn. So, you know, even a beginner can do that. You get some plasterboard is one of those tips. So, yes, we are putting on a tile making course so that you can actually just go "okay, I don't want to go and have the same fired earth tiles that everybody else does. I want ones that no one else has got." And you can do it.
Jamila 28:30
I'm quite interested in coming into your pottery student initially, I was quite excited because it looks very accessible. But it's I read today It's upstairs. I'm walking with a walker I but I can maybe I'm hoping that I'm going to build up to to walking up stairs again. That's because that's the problem. When you have a walker, you take lifts all the time and your muscle groups are changing.
Tallie 28:55
We do we do have a plan subject to getting the planning permission to put a mezzanine outside, which will mean we can have a lift going up to the mezzanine, and then a lift to the door to make it accessible because it is really important for us that it is accessible. But you know, we don't get outside funding for this. So it's just one at a time. But yeah, that is definitely on our radar.
Jamila 29:19
Does it work for wheelchair users though? Can they use a wheel? Is there a way around?
Tallie 29:26
You would have to put the wheel on, you raise the wheel so that it's the right height. But yes, we have got a number of wheelchair users who have regularly used our studios and always been on one on the ground floor. Leyton got a lift and is accessible but our Highgate studio is also on the ground floor. So you know for people who are living in Haringey, that might be an easy one and so that you can go straight in but yes, we they you can adapt the
Jamila 30:03
And I've always like been interested in that space as well. And there seems to be some building work going on at the moment.
Tallie 30:12
Do I get to talk about that space? Oh my god, we haven't touched on it. This is what I should have led with.
Jamila 30:17
That's what I was waiting for you to talk about.
Tallie 30:21
Tottenham tips. Okay. Yesterday I went around and had a look look of what's going on. Outside turning Earth in Haringey a cafe is about to open up. And there's public meeting space next door to us inside. So in the winter, people will be able to go in there. There's on the back of behind where we are, there's people making chandeliers, we've got there is a a shop that's open Monday to Friday that's selling terrariums. There's lots of little there's, there's a there's clothes shops that are opening up in that in that building, there's lots of little studios opening up and I have to say that William who is the person who has had the vision to make that happen, including putting turning earth in there, just absolutely fabulous human. And he's gone and hand hand up holstered these beautiful chairs and the mid century chairs. And it's it is going to be one of the most
because it like used to have the Black Cab garage? I don't know if that is still there on the site?
I don't think so. No? No.
Jamila 31:34
So what are they building at the moment? They took a lot of stuff down
Tallie 31:38
those buildings. Yes, that's Haringey council bought that they are building mixed use housing. And really exciting thing there is that very soon, once the new buildings go up, and you have housing or essential buildings, there's going to be cut through right straight through to Lordship Rec. So it's going to connect.
Jamila 31:56
Oh, yeah, because I was wondering if you had to walk all the way around, because I've just always seen it from the road, you know, like looking what's over there.
Tallie 32:03
That's going to be where where the taxi rank, there was that taxi company that that that that road there is going to be accessible to the public.
Jamila 32:13
So at the moment, you have to kind of go around?
Tallie 32:17
Yeah, I mean, so yeah, but that's going to be within 18 months when they started, which is about three months ago. So I'd say in about 15 months then you should find that there is going to be the best, best bit of Haringey and full of artists and craftspeople there.
Jamila 32:36
Nice, so interesting new corner that is developing into an artistic area. Nice.
Tallie 32:43
Yeah. And keep looking out because we will have the Open Studios and then ceramics markets taking place. I mean, if not before Christmas, there'll definitely be a Christmas market, but we may have one at the end of the summer as well. So just
Jamila 32:59
because that's when you opened wasn't it? With a Christmas market in 21
Tallie 33:03
Yeah, so the Crawley Road, Crawley Road Studios is what it's called. So have you think on Instagram things just just to see what what other people are in Crawley Road Studios.
Jamila 33:14
Okay, well, maybe I'll link it in the in the show notes for this episode as well. And your Instagram and your website? Yeah. Okay.
Tallie 33:26
Yeah, excellent. Thanks so much.
Jamila 33:28
No, thank you. So I hope you feel inspired to maybe give this or some other craft your time. And I will link in to social media and their website. And so if you want to check it out, you're welcome. When we were talking about studio in Haringey, it is off downhills way that was the road that we kept on referring to so I hope that makes a little bit sense like visually of those who who know Haringey or Tottenham. Okay, thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed today's episode, learned something new. And let that Tottenham love grow. Take care. And until next time, bye you
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