Tinkering Belles - Sarah Fogle

Do you love all things DIY Content Creation, Being your own Business and general Maker Shop Talk? 

If so, join Tamara Robertson (Mythbusters, Maker Science, Seekers of Science) as she kicks off with a Tech Talk about Cross Stitch then sits down with THE OG Blogger, Pinterest Maven and Maker Extraordinaire Sarah Fogle (UglyDuckling DIY).

Topics they cover include (but are surely not limited to):
- Not your Grandma's Cross Stitch Patterns
- The Evolution of the Online World for Content Creators
- Pin in to win it on Pinterest
- Babies and Building
- Why Consent is so important in Social Media
- Collabs and Learning from other Platforms
- Why we are never on time
- Maternity Leave as a Content Creator
- The Subscription Model
- The Real Cost of being your own Brand
- Internet Trolls
- All the Colors in the Rainbow - Matching Pantones
- Can Hair Make or Break Brand Recognition?
- Solid Works / CAD versus Sketch Up
- The Real Value of Passive Income Streams
- Pregnancy and Ladders
- Why you SHOULDN'T slide into someone's DM's
- Balancing Honesty and Kindness in the Internet Age
... and so much more

This is the 5th episode of Tinkering Belles and you're surely not going to want to miss it!

So join in on Tamara's adventure as a Maker as she works to amplify the BAMF Females Behind the Builds one interview at a time! 

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Are you a visual person who needs to see all the cool moments?  Head over to the "Tinkering Belles" Playlist on Youtube to see all the fun behind the scenes moments from this episode!

If you enjoyed the show, consider becoming a supporter via Tamara's Patreon Page and as always join in on the Maker adventure with Tamara and her guests on the Tinkering Belles Instagram page.

You can follow Sarah's adventures here, here, and here:
All The Awesome Links - Ugly Duckling House • Instagram (@uglyducklingDIY)
Blog - UGLY Duckling House
Instagram - @UglyDucklingDIY
Pinterest - Ugly Duckling House
Youtube - Ugly Duckling House
Etsy - Ugly Duckling House

Music for this Episode was provided by Bill Trowell Music.  Visit BillTrowellMusic.com to hear more and to subscribe to Bill's Patreon, where he covers favorite showtunes, movie themes, classic rock and jazz, as well as requests from Patron's.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

Greeting shopmates and welcome to Tinkering Bells, a show about DIY, design, and all things hands-on. And sky's the limit as we talk props, metalwork, cosplay, woodwork, leather, electronics, and so much more. I'm Tamar Robertson, your host, so strap on your tool belts because we're about to get into some skill sharing, y'all. Today

Maker Tease

SPEAKER_00 0:24

I'm going to be joined by a maker who's known for going whole house because she believes one room at a time is for suckers. Now I don't want to give away too much, but this maker can literally DIY her way around anything backwards and with a baby on her hip. So if that doesn't make you want to stick around and hear more, then you might be at the wrong podcast.

Tech Talk - Cross Stitch

SPEAKER_00 0:47

But first, let's go ahead and have our tech talk of the day. I found that this maker also has an affinity for the grid-based art known as crossfit. As someone who recently learned this skill, I thought it would be fun to take a step back in time and learn where this hobby got it stuck. So it turns out needlework has existed as long as there's been cloth to work it on. In fact, pieces of embroidery and needlework have been found preserved in ancient Egyptian tombs and in medieval churches all over the world. For the longest time, everyone thought that CrossFit started in the Middle Ages in Europe, but now we've actually found that it existed long before the Middle Ages. There's traces of it in China and India. In fact, the oldest and earliest sampler was discovered in Egypt dating from the 6th century. And then there's traces of needlework with regards to like half stitches that were found on pieces of cloth dated at 3,000 to 5,000 BC. Like that's super old. Now that being said, though, it became super popular in China during the Tang dynasty. And this was because a female's roof was actually closely tied to her stitching ability because it was her job to sew the clothes for her family. So any ability to embellish them or beautify them was strongly desired. Which led to a lot of the cross-stitching. It was kind of neat too because it actually ended up following the silk road because these designs would then be traded, they'd be gifted, they'd be taken during, you know, um battles. So you started to see CrossFit spread out globally. Now, a lot of people say that the very first printed pattern book was made in Germany in 1524. And that may be true because the printing press was invented around that time, but it turns out pattern books have actually been around since at least the 17th century. Back then, though, they were just a bunch of black dots on a page, and the colors were left to be decided by the stitcher. Now, innovation-wise, though, the first fabric that was made specifically for CrossFit was invented in the 1890s. And this included the weaved squares so that it would be easier to know where to actually put your stitches. I started cross-stitching with this type of fabric and it made life so much easier. I cannot even imagine just having a regular piece of cloth. So that's kind of the history of CrossFitch. Now, Crossstitch as we know it today was introduced in the US, though, in the 1960s. And it was actually brought in during the Industrial Revolution as a hobby for women because they hadn't quite joined the workforce. So they were seen to have a lot of leisure time on their hands. So again, it became this fun thing that they would do after their studies or after housework. That's actually probably around the time that my grandmother was really involved in cross-fitching, which is the whole reason that I wanted to learn to cross-fitch because she had always done it. So it's kind of neat to see this history of how it came to the world and then how it came to the US. Well, that's it for your tech talk. As always, you can join in the conversation with my maker friends and me on the Tinkering Bell's Instagram and Twitter pages. Just search for Bell's Tinkering, hit follow, and share your DIY adventures together with us. Have a tool you want to learn about? Let me know. And it may be featured in a future episode. Tell us what you liked, what you hated, or possibly even what we missed.

Maker Interview - Sarah Fogle

SPEAKER_00 3:50

So now we're going to be getting into the main event, and I'm so excited to introduce you to our next maker. So drumroll, please, introducing Sarah. Thanks for joining me. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm good. I'm excited to talk to making today.

Where to Find Sarah Online

SPEAKER_00 4:06

So to kick it off, where can everyone find you, follow you, and then what will they see when they go there?

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Okay, so my my brand's name is Ugly Duckling House. But on social media, because that handle was too long for Twitter, I decided on Ugly Duckling DIY. So that's pretty much what I try to cover. I try to cover

Filling the DIY Gap Online

SPEAKER_02 4:25

all sorts of DIY projects. So home projects, craft projects, home repair, which is something that I don't see a lot of makers doing when it comes to coming up with content. Like home repair seems to be kind of a gap for a lot of people. And so I bought an older house that had not really gotten a lot of good repairs. So I've had a lot of practice with the house that I live in. So lots and lots of great content. I am on YouTube, Ugly Duckling House. I'm on Instagram, ugly duckling DIY. I'm on Twitter, Ugly Duckling DIY, Facebook, I'm on Pinterest, I'm on TikTok, I'm on everywhere. But uh you can go to uglyducklinghouse.com to get to all of my content and to most of the other things that I share. So I try and keep that as kind of my hub. You can subscribe to email on there, you can get access to my woodworking plans on there and to my cross stitch patterns. There's all sorts of different DIY stuff that I do. So I try and not be too niched down with what I've been doing because I've been creating content for over 10 years and that kind of skews myself all over the place. Like, you know, I just kind of go with the flow with whatever it is that I'm interested in, is what I'm trying to post about. So I love that.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

And actually, I did like some light internet stocking, and I had seen the things that you posted on Instagram since we met at WorkbenchCon in 2018. And it was kind of cool

Not your Grandma's Cross Stitch

SPEAKER_00 5:40

because I just recently found all your cross-stitch stuff, which I taught myself how cross-stitch just for the makers happy hour secret Santa, having no idea how long it actually takes, and just doing it because my grandmother used to do it. Yeah. So I am in awe of the designs that you have are just incredible.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Like thank you. I started doing cross-stitch a long, long time ago, just like you. You know, I learned from my grandmother, and she did amazing cross-stitches, like these big, beautiful angels and stuff like that. So we had art made out of cross stitch in our home when I was growing up. And I don't know what it was, but a couple of years ago, I just found that I wanted to do something that was kind of relaxing at the end of the day and picked it up as a hobby again. And I realized that I kind of wanted to make my own patterns because all the stuff that's out there to buy is tends to be full of words for one thing. And I'm not really much of a word art type person. And so I found some of the stuff a little cheesy. And so there are great patterns on places like Etsy and things like that. However, I just kind of wanted to make some of my own. So I started exploring ideas of like, is there software? Is there a way that I can do this for free? I found a couple of free software options. And then I wound up going from there and started designing my own patterns. And I posted it kind of expecting that no one was going to take any interest in this whatsoever. And a couple of people started downloading my patterns because I offered them for free on my website, and I still do. And so I just kind of went, okay, well, you know, people liked that pattern and people liked the next one that I posted. And so I just kind of went, well, what if I offered them for free every month? You know, just because it's a hobby and it's fun to create them and it's a completely different topic than the typical content that I cover, you know, it has nothing to do with home repair or design or woodworking really. It's something that I do with my hands as a means to relax. And I guess because maybe the pandemic made it also extremely popular, but it started growing. And then last year, of course, because everybody was at home and needing something as an outlet that didn't require a lot of excess tools or a lot of excess time and energy and effort. This was kind of something that you can just do and mellow out at night. It seemed to take off even further. So I'm glad that it gives people kind of that outlet.

Subscribe for Free Patterns from Sarah

SPEAKER_02 7:55

And I've been offering free patterns for a couple of years now. So you can actually subscribe to my website and get, I guess, at least 24 free patterns, if not more. Wow. Yeah. I'm going to be launching a membership program from it as well. So in addition to the free patterns that I offer, because they're so popular, because I tend to make these patterns up to a year in advance to release for the remainder of the year. So I'll take a couple of weeks and just hunker down and design all the ones that I'm going to release. But then I get inspired to design more and more and more. And so I now have a backlog of ones that I'd love to release. And I do sell them on Etsy as well, but I just kind of want to create like a membership program where people get even more. And some of them are kind of in, you know, in a theme of release. So a leaf series, for example. So people really like houseplants. Well, if you kill a lot of them and you can't keep any alive, you can stitch them now. And I like that. I mean that. Of houseplants that you don't ever have to water. I started just kind of creating a couple of things like that that I thought were a little different than what I've seen out there as a way for people to get into it. And there's a lot of people who are now suddenly discovering that cross stitch is really fun. It's not your grandmother's hobby anymore. There's a little bit more of a modern twist on some of the design patterns that I've come up with. So I hope people like them and people really seem to be responding.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

I think it's super neat to see your own designs. And I I do like that yours are more nuanced. Because you find most of the doily kind of looking things like the things my grandmother would have liked. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Or the border with the one.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

So my grandma, she kind of did some snarky ones. One thing I still haven't figured out because like I designed my own for the makers happy hour and I did it in Excel because I had no idea what I was doing. And instead of doing X's, I was just coloring the blocks, which made it impossible to then know like how many down. I was like, this is not how you do this. I had no idea how to estimate the amount of time. Like I spent weeks on this single cross-stitch, just cross-stitching nonstop all day. And I was like, How are

The Etsy Hustle for Cross Stitch

SPEAKER_00 9:48

people like I see people on Etsy selling them and they're selling them for such low cost points? And I'm like, how are they making money off of this when you start equating the time and the material? I would have had to sell this thing for so much.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

The vast majority of things that I see for sale on Etsy are downloadable patterns. So you expect the person to download the pattern and to make it themselves. And that's expected in this particular hobby. That's because that's the draw. Part of the fun is the making itself. So you would buy the pattern to make it, but you wouldn't necessarily want to buy a finished pattern. And so because it's a downloadable option, you can sell that particular downloadable print over and over and over again for 18 different people to make that pattern themselves. So the prices that you're seeing on Etsy are more than likely the actual patterns, the same thing that you would buy a woodworking plan and then build something from it. You wouldn't buy the finished product necessarily in that situation.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

That makes more sense. So they're probably just showing the finished cross.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Sometimes I'll stitch my own pattern because I'll I'll want to create the pattern itself. And sometimes I just don't feel like making it, but I can I can create a digital version of it. You know, I can mock it up to what it's supposed to look like. And it's really fun seeing people finish those designs that I haven't actually finished myself because then I get to see them come to light. It's always a little bit different than what you're gonna expect because

All the Colors in the Rainbow - Matching Pantones

SPEAKER_02 11:03

these floss colors, they come in hundreds of colors, but it's still a limited palette when it comes to trying to make something photorealistic, for example. So trying to see whether or not it actually looks the way you had it, you know, mocked up is fun too.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

My maker's super channel was for Joni and Joni's a Steelers fan. So I wanted to do the Steelers colors and I had so many variations of yellow and but they were only slightly off. Like it was very interesting to try to figure out the exact right color for it.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Yeah. I'm very lucky that I now I now have a pattern design software that I use that helps me figure out the colors without having to mess too much with the color matching part. Um, sometimes it does become a little bit confusing if, you know, if a color gets outdated or if the palette selection that I have is a couple years old, then it becomes a little bit weird. Because sometimes people will contact me and they'll be like, that color doesn't exist anymore. What color should I use? And then I have to go scrambling to the craft store to see if I can find a color match. But because I offer most of my patterns for free, I kind of go, well, I'm not really gonna be that concerned, you know. It allows me a little bit of luxury. Being able to offer it for free is great because it becomes a hobby, it becomes something that's fun. So I don't take the difficulties seriously that much. You know, if somebody has difficulty downloading a pattern, I have a little bit more patience to go, okay, well, we can figure this out of why you're not able to download it rather than go, oh, this is exhausting as a job.

Internet Trolls

SPEAKER_02 12:24

So sometimes I will get a really rude email about somebody not being able to download it. And I'll just kind of go, I you could just not get it for free.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

I mean, you're like, oh, sorry, that that message went to my spam. I must not have seen it.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Yeah. I offer this for free to my subscribers. I never realized that there would ever be a need to block people from joining my email subscription list because sometimes if you're rude, I just think it's not fair for you to be able to get one of the patterns.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Like you just Yeah, you shouldn't get free stuff if you're mean.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

You shouldn't be able to email the creator and and and tell me terrible things about myself and then expect to get stuff for free. That's just kind of not what this is made for. This is made for fun. So but you know, that's also the nature of the internet. It's not like I joined YouTube naively going, well, nobody's ever gonna comment anything negative.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

So no one's gonna mansplain anything to me on YouTube. That's never gonna happen. Because obviously there's some form of female base of viewership there. I met

Pin in to win it on Pinterest

SPEAKER_00 13:28

you first when you were doing a talk on Pinterest, which is funny because I'm not gonna lie, I'm obsessed with Pinterest, but from a pinning standpoint, and it's like one of those things that like most I think my profile is private because I'm like, this would be so embarrassing, and if everyone saw these little things that I saved for my nieces and all these things. But the thought of using it actually as an out was so intriguing to me. Like listening to you talk about it, and you talked about like SEO and and linking your blog into it and using your web pages and being able to like get away from algorithms. And you did mention you are on TikTok.

The Evolution of the Online World for Content Creators

SPEAKER_00 14:00

So, like you've been doing this for 10 years. So you've watched this go from just uh I I have a blog on a website, here are some designs, to now I can show it on Instagram to now I can do these little dances with it on I don't actually know what TikTok is. I assume it's all dancing.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

There are two rules that I have that I tend to follow with social media. One, I do not dance. I enjoy dancing. I just don't want to follow any kind of dancing trend and post it. I'm just not that person. The second one that I do is, you know, they say there's no crying in baseball. For me, there's no crying on Instagram. Like that's just that's just one of the things that I don't do. You know, I will cry privately about whatever, but I just don't want to post pictures of myself like weeping on social media. It's just, it's one of those things that I just prefer not to do. Those are just two rules I created for myself, and they've served me well so

Balancing Honesty and Kindness in the Internet Age

SPEAKER_02 14:53

far.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

But it's really interesting to me because you are actually like really um open and genuine on social media. Like I feel like as a follower, it's easy for people to feel like they're a friend, you know, they're not just the customer, like they're getting to know you, they're on this journey with you. And especially since you've had Ellis, like getting to enjoy that journey with you has been really exciting. So how do you find that balance? How do you not share, you know, the sad moments, you know, because there are there are the hard moments, but still stay so true to who you are. Like it's it's really inspiring.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Well, thank you for saying so. I don't I think that I've never really been the person who tries to keep stuff too close to the best. I am way too much of an open book in person. Like I will say so many terrible things that just spill out of my mouth without even thinking or having a filter. So at least on social media, I attempt to have a little bit more of one, mainly just because I tell myself that if I'm ever upset about something or I feel like I need to get something off my chest, there's nothing wrong with doing that except for I need to at least allow myself some processing time in the same way that I do with my writing. Like writing allows me to edit and allows me to have that time to not have that rough draft posted everywhere. Social media doesn't allow that as easily. You know, there's a lot of stuff that you can't take back. So I try and I've had to do that, you know, in my personal life, you know, with your relationships with your friends, there's always something that you don't want to say because you you want to make sure that you are thoughtful of somebody else's feelings and stuff like that. So it's it's very similar to that kind of like, wait a minute, what what are the potential outcome of XYZ? It's really, really good to be honest and to to share what you can out there. It's just that I think that when it comes down to not flying off the handle is is really what it comes down to because I'm not that person. You know, that person who always has the great zinger, who always has the great like clap back? I'm not that person. And I'm so jealous of that person because there are a few people that I follow that do that so well. And I I wind up being that, you know, that Meg Ryan from You Got Mail, envious of the person who always thinks of the exact right thing to say. So um I'm I'm a little different where I just need a little bit of time to kind of shrink away, to think about my feelings and then to say them in a better way so that I don't regret the thing that's about to spill out of my mouth. In person, that becomes a completely different

Sharing the Hard Stuff

SPEAKER_02 17:10

story. But um I share the hard stuff. I I try and actually share some of that stuff too. Like when I had Ellis, I had him six weeks early. And there was a whole roller coaster of that that I shared on Instagram stories of like the whole the health issues that I was running into. I mean, the truth is that we both came very, very close to very bad outcomes. And um, I, you know, I had help syndrome and I had um a couple of things that I went through with all of that that were very traumatic, basically. And so I wanted to at least be honest with it because I felt like, well, I've already started sharing this story before everything kind of went downhill. How can I not finish it? Because then it felt just like another project unfinished, basically. And I've got a lot of those. I don't know, it's one of those things where you pick for yourself where those where those obstacles are and also where those filters are. And I think that for each person that's going to be different. And it's like totally understandable when somebody doesn't want to share personal details.

Why Consent is so important in Social Media

SPEAKER_02 18:06

And especially because the people in my life, I try to at least allow them to opt out. So for example, my partner, Kyle, I allow him to be outside of my social media. I don't force him to be a part of it unless he's comfortable with it. So if he never wanted to show his face on Instagram, he would never have to. And there's gonna be a point with my son as well where I kind of go, okay, well, he's kind of out of that baby phase of where he's attached to the hip all the time, where, you know, because he's always around, that he might be in Instagram stories or whatever. But when he finally gets a little bit more separation from me, he's gonna be phased out as well. Because I want him to have at least some choice in the matter when it comes to his own social media presence. I want him to be able to have that autonomy and to decide when and when and where he gets to be photographed and posted online. I think that there's that there's a matter of choice in that. And so just because I choose to be online doesn't mean everybody has to be. And again, those are those are individual choices. Where where I draw the line may not be where somebody else does.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

That's understandable. And it's it's interesting too, because like you

The Guess the Handle Game at Conventions

SPEAKER_00 19:07

have a very large following on all of your platform. So there is that that realization that there are a lot of people that have touch points in your life, that you may not ever know what is on the other side of that name or of that screen. And you know, I'm sure that you've had this experience too, where you go to a maker event, someone comes running up to you and they're so excited, and they're like, We've been talking for you know years, and I'm like, I don't I don't recognize your faces because as makers, we only ever sometimes put our our things we create and never actually include our faces. So, like, you know, makers need to put up one face picture before going to events so that everyone

Protecting those you Love as an Influencer

SPEAKER_00 19:42

knows who they are. It's one of those things that like I know I experienced that too. Like once I started everything with Mythbusters of Search, like I didn't think about the fact that Facebook at the time, or even now still you can get to other people's other people, right? And so, like suddenly my stepmom was writing me and telling me she had all of these men writing her and sending her these things. It was because she didn't know to have her stuff private. I had my stuff public because I was a public figure. And so it became one of those smoke and mirrors thing where you put up the fan page, you lock down the personal page, you change the name on all that to like protect the people that don't know how to protect themselves because they're not on the internet normally. They're only trying to share their cooking or their granddaughter photos, they're not trying to be on online all the time. So I think that idea of consent online is a big one. And it's something that my friends know that they don't have to really ask me if they post anything because of the kids shows, they know don't post pictures of me drinking, don't post pictures of me in a bathing suit. But I always ask them if I'm gonna post a photo that's a group photo, is it okay if I post this? You know, because I I know that the minute I post something, they suddenly get an influx of 200 new followers that they didn't have, you know, that they may not want necessarily.

Why you SHOULDN'T slide into someone's DM's

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Yeah, I try and I try and be cognizant of that. It's it's sometimes hard because you are yourself, you you are who you are, and you're also sharing on social media. And so it's it's hard sometimes to think of the next step from there. You want people to feel that connection with you, and then sometimes they feel too much of a connection, then you don't know what to do with that. And it's unfortunate, but it's it's usually particularly from men who get a little too personal with trying to share stuff. And I can post all day long that I have a significant other, I have a baby, we have a family, I can post family pictures of us and stuff, and I will still get weird messages from from folks who think that that this is somehow a dating site or something like that. You know, like the hi, how are you doing? I don't actually answer those. I think it's a weird thing. I actually had somebody message me that they thought that that rule in particular was kind of odd. And I was like, I'm sorry, but you just don't understand how it is on the other side. I mean, it's great that somebody has a greeting. I mean, you should greet people. You should be like, Hi, Sarah, I have a question about such and such. And it's great that you do that. Greet them like you would in person. You don't just go up in the middle of a conversation and say, Where'd you get that shirt? You know, you just

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Sometimes if it's a really great show. When you're a five year old, that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Open with hi Sarah, let's talk about XYZ. But if the question is very s open-ended, like if it's just hi and there's no other message, or if it's just hi, how are you, and then it's some kind of like how are you, sweetie, or whatever, you know, all of those kinds of things get completely ignored just because I've I've I've gotten that message way too many times to go, it's not worth opening the message for, and going through the whole process to go, okay, that is just a complete waste of time. You know, I I I know that somebody's gonna start start getting kind of creepy and a little bit weird, and we just don't need to open that message. Same thing with like messages that start with just a photograph.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Oh, yeah. No, if it's gonna if it's gonna picture, I'd like I automatically don't open that. I learned that the hard way on Snapchat. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Bless Instagram for filtering that photo. It blacks it out, it says, you know, like this is from somebody you don't know. Tap here if you want to see the rest of the photo or something like that. And so that's a nice feature, yeah. I wish it didn't blur it out quite as much so I could make out what it might be. You know, because it completely blacks it out. And so I don't know if it's innocent or not. And it's a little bit too much of a mystery in that situation, but I'm glad that it's there. It filters it out, it it tries its best. And um, I appreciate that very much.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Yeah, the weird messages and like you said, it does tend to be. I haven't really gotten any chicks and slides sliding into my DMs, you know? Like it's always God. I don't know if you've ever gotten this, but I used to get that, well, if you have someone, why aren't there pictures? How can they be that important if there's not pictures? And it's like that consent thing where it's like, you know, they don't want to be in the pictures.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Yeah. Have you ever heard of somebody just not posting their themselves online? There's there are people who their their significant others are very online, but they aren't. And that's a good thing when you have a partner that will honor that for you, you know, if if that's your preference, then that's okay.

Ruby's Revival

SPEAKER_02 23:58

And he and I talk a lot because, you know, we would love to get to the point where I'm sure that you know, but we have a um, for those that are following this and and don't know, we have a vintage camper that came from his grandfather that we are currently restoring. And we would love, love, love if we could hit the road for a long period of time. But that means that, you know, we might have to do what I do full time, which means that he has to get more involved with what I do. So we go through a lot of conversations about, you know, well, what would his role look like and would he be more present online? Would that be something that he would do more of, or would he be behind the scenes? What would he take over behind the scenes? Lots of questions like that. So just because you don't see a person behind the scenes doesn't mean that they aren't there because my baby very much is a part of my life, but I don't necessarily try and plaster him all over the place because eventually he's gonna decide, mom, why did you post that? And um, I'm gonna have to answer to someone who is gonna be very opinionated, I expect, based on how he talks right now. But based on his babbling and squawking and squeaking, I'm I'm thinking he's gonna have some opinions

Babies and Building

SPEAKER_02 24:57

of his own.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

So, how has the whole like making and mommying balance gone? Like, do you did you have to like baby proof the shop or is he pretty good at not trying to grab the you know the saw when you're using so far?

SPEAKER_02 25:10

He's had zero presence in the garage because you can't see it now, but in his nursery, there is uh a sound barrier that I've installed that I also installed in my garage for using power tools because we found that it makes neighbors happier, it's easier for people to take naps while I'm working. So we've installed all that in the garage, but the nursery became the priority when I got pregnant. So the drywall in there still needs to get finished. So my workshop is still very much under construction. I'm hoping that because he'll be a little bit older and he won't require being so attached to me at that moment, I can actually have a little bit more time to finish the drywall and get the job done. So he's not really exposed to that too much. He can sleep through just about anything because I was still doing all that kind of stuff while I was pregnant. He can sleep through loud dog barks, he can sleep through sounds of power tools. Uh, there's a lot of things that he just ignores. And I think it's just from womb conditioning that he knew what he was getting into. So I think it'll be really, really fun to see him discover what mommy does and when it's safe for him

Ladders and Baby Bumps

SPEAKER_02 26:10

to get involved.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

When you say womb conditioning, it automatically like just made me remember like my sister talking about how she couldn't like tie her shoes, but like you continued making and and DIYing and and renovating while you were pregnant. Was there any activity that like you got to a certain point with the belly and you're like, okay, can't do this one anymore? Like, you know, go into the Velcro shoes. Like, was there something you had to do?

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Um, doctors' orders were that I couldn't get on a ladder, so that was a little difficult. I did break that rule a couple of times, and um, I definitely expected that on social media I was just going to get so much negative feedback for doing it. Because anytime that you do anything online, somebody's gonna be like, Why aren't you wearing safety shoes? Why aren't you wearing glasses? Why aren't you wearing and you're like, I wear them most of the time, but today I just forgot them. You can't you have you always have to set an example, and that's always the expectation. But there wasn't really a whole lot because my belly didn't get uncomfortably big until right at the end. Because again, I had him a month and a half early. So that made a huge difference as the size of the baby and the size of my stomach. I didn't quite get to that extreme large I can't move around stage. And by then I was kind of finished with some of the bigger partnerships that required a lot more movement. And some of my um less labor heavy sponsors were the things that I was working on towards the end. So some of the crafting stuff and some of the more um Instagram-based, photograph-based um sponsors. So that actually helped out a lot. Trying to plan

Maternity Leave as a Content Creator

SPEAKER_02 27:35

that a little bit better. Although I did not go on maternity leave when I expected to. So I had a lot of content that I did not get around to editing by the time that I went into labor.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

So man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Um still working on some of that.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

That's the most time to do as far as the edit, I swear.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

Oh my gosh, yes. I'm still working on some of it because I went on maternity leave, but I wasn't prepared to. So I was still posting content because I was still trying to finish up the contracts that I had. And then the ones that I couldn't finish in time, I kind of took a little bit of a break and then I still continue to post stuff. I kind of took a little bit of a breather of kind of going, I need to kind of just enjoy this early mom stage as much as I can because he's gonna be my only baby because of the health issues that I had with um with having him. It just seems like it might be too dangerous to try for a second one. So we're just gonna be comfortable with having him. And because of that, I'm kind of like, well, if I only get one shot at this baby stage, then I want to enjoy every second that I can, which means that I I'm very, very lucky that I can do that because I've been working for 10 years to become independent in my business to where I can take this kind of time and, you know, just enjoy watching him roll over for the first time as opposed to trying to get another contract.

The Elusive Achievement of Balance

SPEAKER_02 28:43

When you talk about balance, it's really hard, you know, having a dog, having a business, having a full-time job, going to school full-time. Balance has always been one of those things that seems to be this mystery achievement that everybody seeks, you know, especially women, you know, trying to achieve balance. And there really is no such thing. You you sacrifice things here and there, you pick and choose your battles for the day, and tomorrow may be different. That's just the way that things go, you know, you can't do everything all of the time. And so if you can't do everything all of the time, what's the most important thing today? And for the last few weeks, the most important thing today has been the same consistent thing. So instead of picking and choosing my battles, I've already got the choice made. And so I'm spending time with my son, watching him through this little baby stage. And then I find that it's easier for me to go back to more aggressive projects because I get tired of doing the same thing. So I'm probably gonna have some desire to pick up a power tool.

The NEXT Project

SPEAKER_00 29:36

But you said there's a lot of projects that aren't done. So is there that one that you're like, uh, that's gonna be the one that I'll come back to first because you're just most excited about it, or it's just the most daunting, or there are a couple of unfinished projects that I mean, half pretty much I want to make sure that they get done before I start anything new.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

And that's kind of one of my biggest problems, one of my biggest personal struggles is that I love starting new projects and don't necessarily get around to finishing everything exactly 100%. So, you know, I've finished a lot of the nursery, as you can see behind me. There's been a lot of projects that I've actually gotten through, but there's still a couple of things that I really want to finish in here, namely his dresser and the the changing table, basically. It had a missing slide, and so we had to order a new one. And so we have five out of the six drawers installed. That kind of stuff drives me crazy. So that's gonna be a big thing. There's gonna be a big art installation in this room that I really want to do through wood carving. It's something that I'm just really extremely passionate about. I love, love, love wood carving. So I want to do something like that in here. And

The NEXT Project - Built Ins

SPEAKER_02 30:37

then in the guest bedroom, we've been working on some built-ins. And that has been a very slow going project because it's the very first time I've ever built anything that large. And so I'm kind of just picking and choosing the tiny progress moments in there because I I've never done it before and I feel like everything I'm doing is new and wrong. And I need to make sure that I feel confident at the end that it was all done, at least somewhat right. So I move slower with those kinds of first-time projects. But you know, if it were tiling bathroom, I'd I'd

The NEXT Project - Under the Stairs Pantry

SPEAKER_02 31:07

have it done already. And then one thing that I'd love to start on, but I'm telling myself I can't yet, is ripping the staircase and the pantry apart and rebuilding it to have a more deluxe pantry situation. Because I have like one small pantry closet and I have another small closet right next to it that I think used to be a broom closet or something. The previous owner added shelves to it. But I want to rip that apart and join them together and then steal a couple of feet from under the stairs because it goes under the stairs at an angle. And so I want to kind of like add drawers in there for it to slip back through to use all that extra wasted space. It's just kind of amazing that all of that under the stairs space is not used in this house. It's open, it's vacant, drywalls covering over it, and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

That was one of the most exciting things for me to find on Pinterest was all of the under-the-stair nook renovations. Like cool. I just love seeing what people do with those spaces.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Yeah. I think that because mine is also right in front of the entryway, I'm gonna steal part of the space at the beginning of the staircase to kind of pop out and maybe have shoes or entryway storage. And then the second half of it that goes further back towards the kitchen is the space that I'm gonna steal for the pantry. So it may be like one of those things where you can walk into the pantry and the drawers are kind of awkward, but they slide back into what is the stair vacant spot, and the drawers are gonna slide out from that under-the-stair area. So I'm hoping that I can do something like that because I know that it's it's very, very tempting to create like one of those little under-the-stair secret compartment things for maybe Ellis when he gets a little bit older, like a little reading space for him or whatever. But I'm like, nah, I need the pantry space more. My family's gonna be eating more. I think that's probably a smarter move. We'll see. But the bottom line is that you know, if I peek under those stairs, there's just nothing being used under there. I ripped off the stairs several years ago, stuck my camera down in there, put the flash on, and realized that it's just studs and drywall under there. There's nothing under it being used. So I've got to open that up and see what else I can create.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

I like that when you find something that's like completely empty and waiting to be created, because then you just have like you can go everywhere in your mind with what it could be. And that's always a fun stage, like just getting to play in that in-between of daydreaming the different possibility.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

Yeah.

Having a Design Engineer as a Partner

SPEAKER_02 33:18

And that's one of the things that's really nice to be in a relationship with a design engineer is that he can mock up all these things in 3D. So I can take a look at them before we dive in to kind of at least anticipate some of the obstacles, at least spatial planning, you know, kind of what issues we might have, whether or not it's going to look as awkward as as you think it might. And sometimes he offers up some really cool ideas that I didn't think of because part of his um part of his day job has been designing the way certain things look, putting design features on things. And so sometimes he'll come up with a completely different twist that I never would have thought of, and it makes things really fun.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

I feel like if you guys do that thing where you take the camper and you go, you already got a lot of synergies there.

Solid Works / CAD versus Sketch Up

SPEAKER_00 33:57

He could mock up all the CAD plans that you then sell for all the cool things you're designing and building.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

Oh, yeah, that's exactly the plan there is that he's um because he does things in uh SOLIDWORKS and not and not SketchUp, our plans just look a little different. There's so many expectations that things are gonna look like SketchUp when it comes to three plans and stuff like that that are downloadable nowadays. It just seems to be the gold standard for that. But the professional level software is SOLIDWORKS that he

The Subscription Model

SPEAKER_02 34:22

uses. So we're trying to um change things when it comes to our plans to create downloadable stuff. Most of the stuff that I have right now is free and we're gonna start selling a few of the more complex things soon. I'm looking forward to that because I really want to start offering our own products on my website and like our own stuff that people can buy, including plans and gosh, maybe t-shirts. I don't know what else. There's always there's there's tons of possibilities, but everything single thing requires time and energy.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

I know you talked a little bit about the subscription basis. And when you had said that you first give away your cross-stitch patterns, it was like, oh, is it through Patreon? Like, because you know, on Patreon you can give away like free designs and stuff each month. So I know that that's something a lot I see a lot of uh makers and YouTubers especially have the Patreons to be able to like give away behind the scenes clips and you know get early access and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

So that's that's definitely a good consideration because there's uh there's other products out there that are like Patreon that I'm kind of figuring out which one offers what I think is the ideal fit for what I want to offer folks. And I do want it to be some type of membership style um setup, but it's also one of those kinds of things where I I just really need it to be flexible. And um, I really think that those kinds of those kinds of structures are great for for makers because they can show that you know you have this support system and you can offer people, especially like people who are really, really engaged with your stuff, those freebies, so that it doesn't feel like you're just kind of tossing things out into, you know, into the abyss and nobody's really kind of picking it up because it's only the the people who comment all the time on my Instagram who I really feel like I get to know, like the ones who constantly message. I feel like there's a much bigger personal relationship with those folks as opposed to people who have followed for many, many, many years who might be out there but have never commented or never responded to something. It's nice that those kinds of support systems exist now. I didn't know that those things existed as a blogger, but once I started talking to more YouTubers, I was like, oh, that's actually really cool. I love that idea. Why did that never exist for bloggers? Why was that not a thing that we did? That's

Collabs and Learning from other Platforms

SPEAKER_02 36:26

one of those things that's great about something like WorkbenchCon, where we met, is that I finally get to, you know, discover new ways of content creation from other makers who are putting stuff out there. And it feels like you don't have to reinvent the wheel when somebody has figured out a great system that helps their subscribers support them and also ways to make new things and new products and collaborate. That's one of those things that I think is really, really important when you're a maker, especially in the online community, is that you get the opportunity to talk to other makers and kind of exchange those ideas because there's a lot of stuff from the blogging world and from Pinterest, for example, at that talk that I gave a couple of years ago, that there were so many YouTube makers who just weren't using Pinterest for anything. And they finally were like, hmm, maybe I can get more traffic and more followers by by trying that out. So I was able to offer them something in exchange for the knowledge that they dropped on me.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

I'm not gonna lie, that course that you did was so informative. And I remember looking at Craig and being like, There's a lot of guys in here. And he's like, We use Pinterest, and I'm like, You do? It was nice to know that the guys knew

The Real Value of Passive Income Streams

SPEAKER_00 37:31

it, but you also talked a lot about like passive income streams. And I think that that's something that a lot of makers have started implementing because a lot of the talks at Workbench Con brought passive income streams up. Like if you're already making the plans, why don't you also sell them? If you're already doing the design, why don't you also offer them? And I think it's something right now, it's just as you're talking about like taking a step back. You worked so hard to set up all those passive streams. So they're still able to make that money for you while you take this time to like invest in your family and stuff. So that's really neat to see, you know, that the potential that that enables for makers.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

Yeah, when it comes to any type of entrepreneurship job like this, there's there's always gonna be that moment where you have to figure out whether or not you're ready to hire an employee or to hand off work in some way, in some capacity, because it'll grow to a point that has just become a bottleneck when it's just you. So, how do you solve that problem? Like in my case, it was if I ever need to take time off, what is that gonna look like? And I wanted to prepare myself for that because you never know what's coming around the corner. There could be not to be morbid or anything like that, but like there could be a death in the family in which you want to take some time off. There could be good news in the family, like having a baby that you want to take time off for. And when you work as hard as folks like us do, where you're working for yourself and you tend to, I can't remember who it was that said it, you'll work 60, 80 hours to avoid working 40. So you will work so hard for yourself. And then if you are a service-based business or you are a content creation-based business, where most of your income comes from what you're doing, what's new, what's next. There comes a point where you need to stop, you know, you feel the pressure to produce so much and constantly produce new. And then there comes a point where you're just kind of like, man, I just need a break. But if I take a break, do I make any money? What do I do? You know, if you've been working for 10 years and you take a break and then you make zero dollars the next day, it it's hard to say, I work for myself, you know. That doesn't quite feel like you're your own boss. That makes you feel like you have 8,000 bosses who aren't you and you're answering to all sorts of different customers. And if you don't make that money because you can't be the person producing, where does that leave you? So if you focus on things like passive revenue streams, you at least have a little bit of a breather. You have a little bit of wiggle room to go, okay, if I quit tomorrow or if I'm sleeping, if I choose to take a nap, it feels good to wake up and know that I didn't waste that

The Real Cost of being your own Brand

SPEAKER_02 39:56

time. But it it's not something that happens overnight either. It's it's something that accumulates. So you still have to put in tons and tons and tons of work before that happens. And it's one of those things that my partner and I have talked about repeatedly is because he and I got into a relationship after many years of me working by myself and me being in full-time business for myself. He met me when I was finally starting to be able to have some free time and to take my foot off the gas, where it looked like I wasn't working as hard anymore. I'm like, but you don't understand the five years that it took to get here. You know, I'm I'm finally making money now. I'm finally making money after five years of of nonstop work. You know, this is the culmination of that. This is not suddenly like, I work for myself, therefore I don't work nearly as many hours. So it takes time to build that up. And it's one of those things that can be very discouraging when you're starting out because you see people who have been doing this for a very long time and you find yourself in caught in that comparison game, which a lot of us are way too familiar with. Or you look at them and you're like, oh my gosh, they're doing all the things and it looks like that, they've got everything figured out. And really what it is is is they've just been working really, really, really hard. And you didn't see any of those years, but you see the one where everything seems easy. So don't get discouraged if you're starting out and you think, man, I'd I'd really like to be in their shoes. And five years from now, you might be, you know, or or you might be a little there a little bit faster. I mean, social media these days can can make somebody grow very, very quickly compared to where I was when I first started blocking. Back then it was a lot, it was a lot harder to find a new audience as opposed to all the social media outlets there are now. So, you know, you could become huge on TikTok in a very short period of time if you put some effort into it. But the problem is that there's so many social media channels out there that if you chose to be in involved in all of them, it becomes a very time-consuming job.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

It is a full-time job that goes into that being your own business and realizing that not only are you having to design and make and build everything, you're also having to film everything, edit everything, post everything, curate everything, you know. And it is a lot. And you know, my favorite kind of meme I've ever seen that basically speaks through that comparison of like everyone wants the outcome, but no one wants to put in the work is the ballerina on point. And one shoe is on and one isn't. And you just see like the torment that her foot has gone through to be able to be on point. And it's something I talk to

What it takes to "Make It"

SPEAKER_00 42:17

you know young kids about all the time. Like, you know, persistence and hard work is how you get to where you want to be. Like, don't fake it till you make it, learn it till you earn it, and like keep pushing because you're gonna get further than everyone else if you just keep going, because so many people are gonna they're gonna try it for a little bit and they're gonna peter out and they're gonna be like, ah, it wasn't easy, I'm gonna walk away. So exactly there's a lot to be said about having that.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

Yeah, somebody who is the latest social media star, not they didn't necessarily explode overnight, they were nothing and no one for a very long time before they found something that suddenly lit the spark. And it takes a lot of experimentation for for some folks to find that spark. And I mean, I feel like I never really found mine. I just kind of slowly and over time grew things and experimented and I took tiny little steps in different directions to see what works and what didn't. And when I found the thing that worked, I did it again. You know, I repeated the same action to see if I got the same result. And if that created additional growth, I did it one more time and then I would continue making it into a pattern. And so I would go off in this direction and that would and that would create growth. And then I would get a new idea and kind of go, okay, well, let's let's try this little step. And if that created growth, I would again do the same thing. I would try it again and again and see if that continued growth. Sometimes those experiments completely failed and completely flopped. And there's sometimes where I'm so excited about a project, I'm like, man, this is hitting all the SEO things, like it's got all the keywords and it's got tons of research behind it. And it's the video is so good. It's one of the best things I've done. And it's so funny to me. Or if it's it's I've got this great clip I can't wait to share, and it completely flops, or it's like it goes gangbusters on Instagram and then. Put it on TikTok and it'll just cricket. And it's the same video. Like it's the same thing. I'll pick what I think has worked for me on TikTok in the past and I'll pick that particular part of the clip to share. And for some reason it just sizzles out. And so again, there's tons of that experimentation that goes on. And there's tons of that that you pretend to not see because the algorithm isn't going to show you every time something fails. Like it's all the failures get hidden. So all you see are the highlights and all you see are the successes. And so it makes that person who exploded look, you know, it quote unquote exploded, look like she did it, you know, with a snap of her fingers. You don't, you don't necessarily see the times that she failed or he failed. But that's another great thing about something like Workbench Con or Spring Make or those collaborative events where we can all get together and makers who get that struggle and get that kind of collaboration or that camaraderie of getting together and talking about those things because we've all been in those situations where we feel like we're the one in the room with people who hasn't figured it out yet. Everybody else seems to, and we have no idea what we're doing. But then we're in a room of people who have no idea what they're doing and we're all so excited about it though. So that makes things a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Yeah. And I think that collaborative nature is like one of the things I love most about going to those events and like getting to like sit down and just sit at these tables with people that you've never met, but you already know you have something in common with because you all love making in some way or another. So it is really incredible.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Yeah, it can be awkward

Can Hair Make or Break Brand Recognition?

SPEAKER_02 45:25

too for that same reason is that you're like, I know this person so well. The wonderful thing is that you've probably done that to another person who's also there because somebody is eventually going to look at you like, I have no idea who you are, even though you've probably talked to them repeatedly because your hair is different, or you just don't look like your profile photo, or the last time that you posted something, you looked completely different. So they expected a different looking person. Or in my case, there was like one year where three other people had bright pink hair. And so I was constantly getting spotted across the room, and then people were kind of faking themselves out, going, wait a minute, that's that's not Sarah. That's that's not Sarah. So where is where is she? She's is she even here at the conference? So um I had a couple people mentioning that to me. They were like, I saw you across the room, and then I realized it wasn't you. I'm like, maybe I need to change my hair color this time.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

Well, I had the whole phase where like when I did Miss Buster's search, I had like shoulder back length hair, and then I cut all my hair off, and I did my next two shows, and like I remember being at Comic-Con with one of the other Mistbusters guys, and this band comes up and he starts describing one of my builds to me as something that Tamra had done. I just sat there and I let him explain it, and it was kind of cool to see it from his perspective. And I wasn't gonna say anything, I was just gonna let it be a great interaction. And the other Mistbusters guy's like, You haven't figured out who this is yet, have you? And the guy's like, What do you mean? He's like, That's Tamara. She cut her hair, and he like turned all shades of red. I was like, No, it's so cool to hear my builds from like your perspective, like it was really fun. And it's like started COVID with a pixie, and I now again have shoulder-length hair, you know? So it's like, oh man, no one knows what I look like.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

After pregnancy and trying to dye my hair myself and all the pandemic stuff. Man, I needed a chop so bad, so I just cut it all off the other week. I was just kind of done. It was like so, so, so, so long. And I just went, uh, it's done. It's gotta grow out, it's gotta, it's gotta be healthy again. I haven't had a proper haircut since last February, so yeah, I had to chop it all off.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

I haven't either. My I used to see my barber every three weeks, and the last time I saw her was like in February, two days before the shutdown occurred. And I was like, Can you just cut it in a way that if I don't see you for a while, yeah, I it's not gonna be a travesty, but it is. I'm like constantly just throwing it up because I'm like, oh, I can't, I can't, it's not layered in any way. It's just like yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

Last February was the last time I got my hair cut and colored, and it was right before WorkbenchCon of last year. And so I went there, I I pretty much had the same description to my to my stylist. I was kind of like, hey, it can you just layer it and make it so that you know, if if we go six months and I don't see you, six months, for example, and I don't see you, um, that it's not gonna be terrible, you know, for me to do this. Little did I know I was um the week of workbench con was like the first week I was pregnant or something like that. I had no idea. I had no idea. So I had all the pregnancy changes for for my hair, and then now all the hair is starting to fall back out and all that kind of stuff. So it was really, really rough there for a little while of trying to like actually look human with all my hair being all scraggly and needing it cut so badly, and then some of it starting to fall out, and then also my son discovering that he loves to hold on to. Yeah, yeah. That was hard. So now that I've cut it, things are a little bit easier, even though it's definitely not a professional cut. I mean, it's good enough to throw in a ponytail. So there's that.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

That's mine's finally long enough to put in a ponytail. Like I got through that awkward, weird phase of here to here, like during COVID.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

So well, that's kind of a blessing that you got to do that without a whole bunch of audience.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

It's funny. I think I just recently put up a picture of me with hair. Because my agent was like, Okay, I'm putting you in with a pixie and you're showing up with this, like, you need to go get another

Superpowers - Dealers Choice!

SPEAKER_00 49:08

headshot. There's one last question I have, and it's one that I ask everyone. If you could have a superpower, what would it be and why?

SPEAKER_02 49:17

Oh gosh. I feel like flying is too cliche, but I would totally do it because flying is just cool. That would be so cool to just be able to zip somewhere or or like instantaneously just like you know, materialize somewhere else. Because I'm chronically late. So that would be that would be the ultimate lazy hack is just to be like, oh shoot, I'm I, you know, I'll be right there and then whip, put on my makeup and then be somewhere else. That would be super, super fun to be able to do because that would just fit my lifestyle so much easier that I would be able to wake up from a nap and instantly find up somewhere else within five minutes.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

That never really and like I feel like you get so much time back to that way. Like you can use it to build or sleep or whatever else.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Yeah. I mean, because I can I can work on the strength stuff. I can work on, I mean, I I've learned a lot of hacks with trying to, you know, be five two and work on some of these things where I feel like I don't have this the height or the strength. Like there's a lot of things that you can try and do to work around that. But so I'm I wouldn't really necessarily think super strength or super speed or something like that would be my friend. But being able to instantly materialize somewhere else would be really helpful. Really, really helpful.

Why we are never on time

SPEAKER_02 50:26

At least then my chronic lateness would be less less obvious. Yes. Yeah, there's a lot of time-based stress that I experience that I think that I could not deal with if I could just never be late for a doctor's appointment, never be late for for a meeting. That that would be that would be really nice. Because I've I've just never been that someone once referred to it as a time optimist, and that makes me feel like, okay, that sounds a little bit like me. Like I always feel like I have extra time when I don't. You know, I I I optimistically think, oh, well, I've got 15 minutes. I'm or I'll hit the snooze and be like, I can get ready in in less time. And then I then it's just a lie I tell myself when I'm tired.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

So I like it though. That's I think that's a really good superpower. So this has been an amazing time with you. I've really enjoyed talking, making and families and everything. And I really just appreciate you taking the time. I know, especially right now.

SPEAKER_02 51:20

Well, thank you very much for inviting me. I really this was a lot of fun. Thank you so much for inviting me.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

That's it for Tinkering Bells. This episode is assembled and ready for delivery. I want to thank you for choosing Tinkering Bells as your user's manual for all things maker on a nearweekly basis. If you want to continue to hear more, don't forget to rate and review the show on your podcasting app of choice and as well as sharing it with your friends. Can't find them? Let me know at tinkeringbellsco at gmail.com. I look forward to seeing you next week. Until then, keep making