Making It Up with Jen J. Danna/Sara Driscoll, author of the FBI K-9s thriller series

“From the time that I started publishing, my goal was to be able to do it full-time... it took 10 years to get there, but you know, slow and steady wins the race.”— Jen J. Danna 

After over thirty years in infectious diseases research, Jen hung up her lab coat to concentrate on writing thrillers. She is the coauthor of the Abbott and Lowell Forensic Mysteries with Ann Vanderlaan, a series of suspenseful crime fiction with a realistic scientific edge. As Sara Driscoll, she writes the FBI K-9s thriller series, starring search-and-rescue team Meg Jennings and her black lab, Hawk. She also writes the NYPD Negotiators series. The first of her new standalone thrillers, ECHOES OF MEMORY, released in 2024. 

Among other things, Jen and Carter discuss how Jen writes 3 books a year, AI in the writing industry, and Jen’s decision to re-edit five of her old novels. At the end of their conversation, they make up a descriptive story using a line from John Jakes’s Love and War. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Friends, this is Carter and welcome to Making It Up, the conversation series where two writers just sit down and talk for about 45 minutes, and at the end, we do a little storytelling together. Impromptu, scary, usually a shit show, always a good time. Um, before I get to today's guests, I just want to plug Unbound Writer. That's my company, Unbound Writer. So with Unbound Writer, you know, my goal is to just help writers. I love helping writers. I love talking about writing, I love talking to other writers, hence this podcast. Um, and through Unbound Writer, uh, I would say the preponderance of what I do is I work one-on-one with different aspiring writers, either through manuscript editing, manuscript coaching, um, developmental editing, for example, um, or sometimes we just honestly have phone conversations. We just have Zoom calls where, you know, I hold them accountable to a certain amount of writing. You know, there's some kind of psych psychological elements to my coaching, you know, getting people um kind of on the path and away from their fears or overcoming their fears, whatever those fears may be. But I will tell you, I've, you know, one of the reasons I started Unbound Writer was because I have been through it all, coming from a background of not ever wanting to be a writer, you know, not even, or at least not even ever thinking of that. That was never in my purview. Um, and then all of a sudden, writing my first book, not knowing what I was doing, not knowing what an agent was, um, and then kind of starting that climb and then going through a lot of failure. So I understand. I understand what it's like to be rejected a lot. I understand what it's like to be scared of if I'm good enough. I know what imposter syndrome is. I know how hard it is to say out loud I am a writer. Um, so I do coaching on a lot of those things because, again, I've been through all of it and I can tell you there are certain attitudes that you can hold dearly that will help you overcome a lot of the uncertainty that exists within not only you as a writer, but within the publishing world as well. Um, so if you're interested in any kind of coaching, you can check out my website, unboundwriter.com. Um, brand new website. It's all very pretty. Um, and see if we might be a good fit. And you can also sign up for a complimentary phone call just to again see what your issues are and see how I might be able to help. All right. So today, today I had a thriller mystery writer on the show. What a surprise! Um, I do tend to talk to a lot of thriller mystery writers um because that's what gets pitched to me a lot. And um these are people I love to talk to. So today I talked to uh Jen Dana, who also writes as Sarah Driscoll. Um, so Jen is a Canadian uh who worked for 30 years um with infectious diseases. Um, not you know, that sounded kind of wrong how I just said that. Um, studying infectious diseases, I should say. Um always kind of wanted to be a writer. The goal was always to write, um, but you know, she didn't pursue that professionally. And then as her kids got older, she decided, after a 25-year break from some early writing, to start revisiting writing again. Um, and you know, as we talked in the um in the conversation, published her first novel in 2013, and now she has 23 novels out. So she's um highly productive. Her most recent book is Deadly Trade, which is part of the FBI canine series that she writes. It's book number 10, just came out in um late last year. Um, but it's it was fascinating to talk to her because you know, because she is so productive and because she's working on three books a year, and because she's a heavy outliner, we're very different. So it was fascinating to hear about how she approaches things. And just, you know, I think the one thing that's that's true for all of us is she just has obviously a massive passion for what she's working on. Um, even if she, as she's proclaims, she might be working on four or five books at once, she has to make sure everything's organized to a way that she remembers what she's doing, but you can just tell the fierce passion is there for every word that she writes. Um, and at the end, we make up a creepy little spooky little story um using uh a brief sentence from an old long John Jakes novel. Um, this is a good one, folks. You're gonna like this one. This is my conversation with Jendana, who also writes as Sarah Driscoll. And one of the reasons I even founded this podcast was because I always loved when I was interviewed, where it was just like talking to other writers. It wasn't like, hey, here are the five questions about a specific motivation for a book. I just never I wanted to talk to writers.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Yeah, yeah. No, it's great. So and it's funny, like everybody's got a slightly different journey.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Yeah, but it's fascinating to see the threads between everybody. And you know, you do a few hundred of these and you're like, oh, this is really interesting. Here's the type. I can tell almost what that type is. Yeah, yeah, and I'd be curious to know from you because what there are a few different types I should say, but the one thing that I have found as a through line with most writers that I talk to is this underlying tenacity border on border bordering on you know, kind of chaotic stubbornness of like I can do this. I don't know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

I was about to say control freak, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

Right. I and and just not willing to give, like, there's so many instances where you hear about writers giving up, but the people who I talk to who are published, that's the thing. It's like I come hell or high water. I'm giving this up.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

What what's what what was it like for you? Were you a kid who was into reading and writing?

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I was I was into um into my parents' bookshelves really early. Um, my dad has, and I still have them, some first edition Earl Stanley Gardens, um, which are amazing. My mom read a lot of Agatha Christie. So I sort of got into the whole sort of mystery fiction very early. Yeah. Um, I have mom's first edition Nancy Drew books. So I read, I read really early and I read a lot. And um then I started writing for fun with a girlfriend. Um, and she lived about five hours north of me and in Studbury, and I live just outside of Toronto. And she was writing and I was writing. We used to snail mail each other chapters. And I didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Like how old were you when you were doing this?

SPEAKER_00 7:12

12. I dearly wish I had still kept them. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

That's the ultimate pen pal experience.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Yeah, but also there's nothing wrong with the learning curve. Like it would have been interesting to sort of see the beginning of the journey. It would have been awful. But that was how I got started. And uh the funny thing is that she is a published art author, children's author, RJ Anderson, and I'm now a thriller author. And so the those early days really worked. Um, but I I did not, you know, I have grade 13 English in the Ontario school system, and that is it for my my official training to be an author. I don't have an MFA, I have a Bachelor of Science. I was an infectious diseases and vaccinologist, yeah. Um, sort of researcher for 32 years. So um I I don't have any official training to be an author, but you read voraciously long enough, and you pick up structure.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

You pick up how it's on the job training. I mean, I'm the same way. Like I eschewed reading as much as I could as a kid and as a teenager, and a business degree and zero interest, zero aspirations to write. I just started writing and you never took a class, and you just yeah, you learn by doing that. Like Nancy Drew, that's a great gateway, kind of a re-read to understand the mechanics of intrigue. Um and then you mostly just learn by failing.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

And and you started learning when you were 12, so you're getting a lot of that failing out of the way.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Well, the funny thing was that I I sort of wrote as a preteen and then I got busy in high school and I went to university and I met my husband and I got married and I had two kids and I had a career, and I stopped writing for about 25 years.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

And then the kids got older and they didn't need me quite so much. And so I kind of was getting bored at my job. I mean, my job was really interesting. It was, you know, I was an HIV researcher at the time. It wasn't like it wasn't a fascinating profession, but when you do a job, even a fascinating job long enough, it just gets a little bit stayed and boring.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

And so I went back to writing and uh because I just sort of needed, we're a very creative family. I have two brothers who are film composers. Um, you know, so the the creative side is is sort of is sort of there, and it was apparently knocking to get out. And so I got back into writing sort of in my late 30s. Yeah. But I hadn't written since I was a preteen.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

And and that's the other through line that I see with a lot of authors is that everyone kind of, even if you think about it as something you want to do when you're a teenager, nobody at that age seems to take it seriously. Like, well, this clearly isn't a real job. Um, or their parents tell them that, or whatever. So they all kind of go into their whatever lives.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

And then I'm convinced if you are a real author, it worms its way out of you at some point in your life. For me, I was 33, you were in your upper 30s. You said I've interviewed people who started Hank Philippi Ryan in her 50s, you know.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

It's it's just like somehow that bug is in there, and it's just been well, people have said to me, you know, I'm in my 70s, you know, I'd like to write a book. Is it too late? No, it's never too late. Start now.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

And and you can start in your 20s, and the best can be happening in your 80s. Like, you that's what I that's what I love about this industry could because there's a lot of things to hate about it. There's a lot of frustration, there's a lot of uncertainty. But part of that uncertainty is like you, you know, my breakout novel was my 10th book last year. And after 22 years of writing, like that one just hit. And I'm like, that's great. It's not like you peak with your debut and then you struggle. You know, who knows? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

It's sort of like we always say in science that if the experiment works the first time, it'll never work again. So it's almost better to, you know, sort of get into the craft and and and we all we all, you know, sort of grow as we go. Uh, I mean, what does Stephen King say? The first million words of practice, right? Um, and I highly, highly believe in that. I wrote five trunk novels that will never see the light of day.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Yeah, I've got I've got three, yeah. Yeah. Like I they were agented, but they never sold.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

So it's just like oh, mine were just I was writing for fun online because that was how I got started, was just writing when I went back to writing in my 30s. I was just writing and posting stuff online for fun. I was just writing for me. Right. Because it was I was enjoying it. And uh, and that's when I picked up my writing partner, Ann Vanderland. And then we wrote, you know, these books together. And then people were saying to us, you know, why aren't you doing this professionally? And we sort of looked at each other across like 2,000 miles because she was in Texas and I'm outside of Toronto, and said, you know, why aren't we doing this? And then we scrapped everything we'd ever done and started again from scratch. And that was the first novel we we sent out on submission to. Well, we we you know looked for an agent for, got our agent, and then went out on proper submission.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

So you how did you meet her?

SPEAKER_00 12:23

My agent?

SPEAKER_02 12:24

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

You're a co-writer, you're a co-hand, okay. So this is kind of a funny story because I'm a gun control loving Canadian and she was what I'm gonna gun total Texan who had lived years in the woods in West Virginia, and so always had, you know, just to protect her property from wolves and bears and always had a firearm on hand. Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

She she was the the kind who like that's why you have firearms. That's the reason.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

That's exactly. Yeah. But she still had them when she was in Texas, and I made a gun error, you know. And so she she texted me or she sent me a message, uh, private message, and basically said, You just killed your protagonist. I'm like, oops.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

But that was this is through the online, you know, yeah, through the online stuff that I was posting.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

And so that started a conversation. That's right. And uh, you know, we sort of went back and forth, and then she started to sort of beta read for me, and then what she was suggesting was so good, and she was kind of getting into the nuts and bolts and sort of the tinkering that we started planning stuff together. And that was how we just sort of continued, even when we got into our published works, was that I wrote 100% of everything and I would write a chapter and I would send it to her, and she would rip it apart, and I'd send it back, and then we'd build it back up together again, and then we would do the entire novel that way too.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

So I used to say she used to, she unfortunately Anne has passed. She passed a couple of years ago. Oh, but um, I used to say she used to let me borrow her devious brain. It was it was quite wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

But that's a that's also a very, you know, it's funny with with co-authoring, it just has to work. You have to find, and you don't know how if it's going to work until you get into it. You can plan all you want. And your method is, I would consider that to be highly risky, right? Because you're writing everything and then she's tearing it apart, which is great.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

But I could also see that being like, hey, I'm I I need a little help here, you know. But that's I've co-authored and that's what I've done. And I'm like, I want to write it. That's I need that control initially.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Well, and we did all the planning together too. So she was like right in there from the beginning, like all the story planning, all the character planning. And I am like, I am not a pantser. I I don't know how people who do that can be.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

I am a panther.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

I know you are. Um I I mean, I don't get I don't get, you know, writer's block. If I am having trouble getting words on the page, that says to me that I don't know where I'm going and I need to stop, do a little more detailed planning, and then I can keep it up again. So that's because I kind of when I plan, I do something called milestoning, which means you sort of hit like the big points in the story, but it leaves lateral movement for for that sort of you know, pantsing characterization pants as you go. Right. But especially when you're writing depends on the kind of book, but the first series that Ann and I wrote together was a forensic mystery series. And when you're writing a forensic mystery series, all of the clues have to add up to, you know, sort of the end result. Right. So you have to do some planning around that because otherwise, like the whole thing just falls apart. So I kind of got into the habit of of planning, you know, when I was doing that series.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Yeah, I can, you know, mystery, traditional mysteries, I think, lend themselves well if your brain is an outliner, kind of a brain, because there are there are definitely beats you have to hit. Um, and there's a structure that's commonly kind of accepted. But it's I I I always contend that it's just how your brain works. Like I don't, I don't think you should try to force yourself to be one or the other. I think you write and over time you figure out what your brain is. Because I think it's a matter of just, you know, even for those of us who are panters, I'm convinced the outline's there. I just can't tap into it until I start writing. Because I have these moments, and which is why I'm always so fascinated with people who outline. And you just said it yourself. You have your milestones, but then you have latitude within those milestones for characterization development. In my the way that my brain works is I might have a thought even over the next three chapters, like, okay, this should be what happens. And then inevitably I think of something that I find more interesting as I'm doing it. And I think, like, if I if you outline the whole thing, what happens if you do have that this weird aha moment? Like, no, this is way more interesting. And that happens halfway in, and you have everything structured out. Does that happen to you?

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Not as much because sort of the way that I milestone it is it's like there's like the the the the mile, the the the posts are like this close at the beginning. And then as I get because you know, you hand in an you hand in an outline to your editor because he wants to kind of know where you're going. They want to write the back cover copy. So the first third is really pretty fairly well outlined, and then like the next third, it's like a little less outlined, and the next third is even like a little less outlined. So I know sort of who's responsible because now, like I wrote the forensic mystery series, but since then it's all been thrillers.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

And, you know, so I maybe, you know, like we know who's responsible, or at least I know in my head who's responsible. But but when it's a little less outlined towards the end, it gives you that opportunity to take that left turn. Because yeah, sometimes when you're writing, just you know, you get to a point and something occurs to you, and it's like, wow, why didn't I think of that the first time? That's great. And then you just, you know, you dart off in that direction.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

It just is fascinating to me because you know, for so, for example, I'm I'm working on the second of a two-book deal, so I have to turn it in in August. And I gave, I don't know, four paragraphs about what the book is about. That was that's a big commitment for me because I'm like, I don't know. I'm 60,000 words in, it's pretty remarkably different than those fair four paragraphs. I have no clue what the ending is going to be. I'll know probably around 70,000 words, it'll start kind of like, well, maybe this. I mean, I know a few things that need to happen and what absolutely can't happen. But aside from that, you know, I just I just hope. But you write enough that you you'd learn to trust how however it is your brain works.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Yeah, see, that would make me anxious. Not knowing where I'm going. But part of my problem with that too is that I mean, I only have four months to write a book. And because I'm, you know, when I'm doing three books a year, there's only four months to write a book. But while I'm writing each book, I'm doing, you know, I'm promoing the book before, and I'm doing pages for the book before that, and then I'm doing copy. Like, I'm often working on four or five books at a time. So if I don't know where I'm going in the book that I'm drafting, like, yeah, that would just make me very anxious.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Yeah, well, we're very different that way too, because I'm not writing that much. I'm writing, you know, a book a year, basically, and maybe some other side projects, but because I can't, that's to me, that's that's incomprehensible. And you are among many people who write like that, but I don't get it. I don't get how how you do, but some people just have this ability to sit down for hours and produce, and it doesn't stop flowing, and it certainly helps that you've outlined, but I don't have that kind of muscle because I'm only an hour a day writer, and that's okay. I could write more than that, but uh to me, I almost feel I feel the diminishing returns, you know. You get to that point, and you probably do too, but it might be four hours in where you're just like I'm forcing it now, yeah, and I'm taking away some of the quality I think. And that's and when you're not even outlining, then it's like, now I'm just making shit up just to get words down, and you know you're gonna end up coming.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

I do sort of feel that too, because I think you know, I've done like three years of three books a year, and it and I've sort of come to the conclusion that it's maybe a bit much, and I'd rather drop back to two.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Um, when I'm doing three books a year, it's it's like I have a 3,000 words per day dead uh, you know, word count that. I mean, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

That's like almost double nanorimo, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

I know it's and so at this point I'm like, okay, I've done it. I think it's time to step back a little bit, maybe just work on two books a year. And two books is probably gonna be more time than I need, but then I could work on something else sort of on and off in the background that could always be sell sold on its own or or something like that, or heavens, you know, take a week off because I don't take vacation.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Yeah, God forbid. Yeah, I mean, but there is something about because the writing is the thing that I do seven days a week. Like, and again, it's an hour a day, so it's not a huge, but it's also the thing that I want to do. Seven it's the thing I wake up and I look forward to because I'm like, what uh what's gonna happen today? And so the idea of like, oh, let me take a week off doesn't feel necessarily good to me. Yeah, yeah, you know, it feels like uh you know, and not in an unhealthy way, um, not in a workaholic kind of way, but it's like this is how I exercise my brain, this is who I am as a person. It's you know, yeah, so it's like reading books. I wouldn't take a week off of reading books because I enjoy reading books.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Yeah, yeah, no, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Yeah, but you know, that volume that you're producing, because you have a lot of books out under you know two different uh names. Um, and you know, three years writing three books a year is is like Kensington saying this is what we want, or is that You're just like, I'm capable of this. So I'm going to give you a lot of books if that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Well, I was writing two books a year for Kensington in the the two sort of ongoing series, the NYPD negotiators and the FBI Canine series. And um I kind of wanted to stretch a little bit. And so I decided to write a standalone. And so, you know, I did like the typical, you know, proposal, three chapters and the outline and and handed it off to Nicole, my agent, and she went off to shop it. But she said, you know, I'm going to talk to James first at Kensington because, you know, he's your editor and we want to give him a first crack at it. And that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

You know, contractually they probably didn't have a right to that necessarily because she just thought, you know, that that was the best way.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

You know, he's the existing editor, give him first crack at it. Right. But they came back with a three-book deal, which I was not expecting. So give me a break. That's right. So after I already had, you know, two two book deals going on, they then added in a three-book deal. And so that was Christmas of 2022. I found out about that. And I came back from Christmas and I handed in my retirement notice at work. So at that point, I had been working, I've been at McMaster University in Hamilton for 32 years.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

And uh the last I could have retired as early as uh could get this date, March of 2020. But I'm an infectious diseases researcher, and we were watching the pandemic coming as soon as we came from Christmas in January of that year. He was about to clock in some overtime for uh yeah, and so my last three years in the lab was nothing but COVID.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Yeah, of course. But fascinating. I can't I have to imagine that's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, it was. We were doing uh national and international human-based trials and you know, around vaccines and all of this kind of stuff. It was great work, but at that point, I'm like, I was still carrying two books a year through that. In fact, I had a book due June 1st of 2020. It was the second book in the negotiators series. And by May, I was just writing to my editor going, I'm really sorry, and this really feels like a dog, the dog ate my homework kind of excuse. But we're working 12 hours a day in the lab and I am not going to make this deadline. Yeah. And she just said, I don't know why any of us think that things are normal right now, have an extra two months. Right. And I got it done in six weeks, you know, like that kind of thing. So yeah, and it was it was a lot at that point, but I was still carrying the two books a year plus working full time. But once the extra contract came, it was like, nope, time to retire and and you know, work full-time from home. And at that point, I could like that. When I first started to publish, my my my slogan for this was always go bigger, go home. I didn't want to look back of it at it in 15 years and think, why didn't you even give it a shot? So that was starting in about 2009. And the first book came out in 2013, and it was one book a year for years, and then it was two books, and then it became three books. So by the time it was three books a year, it I could, you know, financially afford to retire from the lab and just concentrate on writing, which was how many books do you have out now? Uh oh, I've just finished the 23rd.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

That's crazy. Because my first book was published in 2012, and I have 10 that are out. Yeah. And and to me, that sounds impressive. I'm like, man.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Well, there are there are lots who do more than me. So uh, but everybody sort of does does what they can do. But I always from the time that I started publishing, my goal was to be able to do it full time, yeah. You know, knowing that I had retirement from the lab coming in the future. Um, so that had always been my goal. So I did finally get there, but it, you know, it took 10 years to get there, but you know, slow and steady wins the race.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

But the idea of even supporting oneself on an ongoing basis with fiction writing is, you know, it's kind of a lottery at this point. It's it's so rare and so difficult. And you can define supporting oneself however you want to define it. Um, and there's obviously very different ranges in incomes, but the idea of even paying a monthly mortgage with income from writing is unattainable. I wouldn't even give guess the number, but I would say it would be 99% plus of of writers. Um, and maybe sleeping.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Might be a little higher than that, but it's definitely it's definitely the the to be able to do that is a is a giant minority.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Yeah, yeah, a giant minority. Um, and so to you, so it's funny because we never we we tend not to allow ourselves to think of that ever being a possibility. Um, and for years it it isn't. I'm sure when you first started out, you obviously you had a an another great job, but you probably weren't looking at these royalty checks and saying, like, you know, I could retire now. Like, oh yeah, no, no, it's funny. I just got a royalty check from uh foreign edition for an older book, and it was 85 cents. And I'm like, this is not totally unusual, like this isn't crazy, and I don't think most people understand, you know, your and you're playing the numbers in a good way, in the sense, and I'm sure it's not cynically driven by this, but writing three books a year, you're you're getting you have more product out there. Um, so you're collecting royalties on on different books, you're not just relying on one book, and that's a great way to do it as well. I mean, you do it because you're capable of doing that and you love doing it. Um, but that's a great way of doing it. Um, once you have a backlist, it definitely helps, but it's it's a struggle. And I think a lot of writers, I don't I don't know if a lot is correct. I think you're in trouble if you're a writer and you're thinking about the money.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Um yeah, if that's the reason why you're getting into writing, you're gonna be your your chances of being successful just went down. Because then you're probably also gaming the system. Like, you know, when vampire books were big, you're like, okay, I'm gonna write a vampire book. But by the if you're traditionally publishing, you're two weeks behind two weeks, two years behind the curve from the moment you start.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

I mean, another another issue right now is just all the AI garbage that's you know going up on Amazon. I mean, didn't they limit it at one point to only three books per person a day? Like something ridiculous like that. Um I don't even know. So there's now even more competition, you know, for for all of us.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

Yeah. Yeah, I know it's a it's it would be a very hard time to be trying to break through right now. Um and and and there's more work outside of writing, I think you have to do to establish yourself as a A, as a real person, B as a personality, C as a writer, and that means you have a P, you know, maybe you're hiring your own PR team, you're very active on social media. Um, I mean, I think about that all the time. Even, even just, you know, my last book came out in January 2025. My next one's not till November of this year. Right. Like, my job is to stay relevant and in front of people. And you know, and if you're putting out AI garbage, that's not what you're doing. Like you're just no, for sure. If you're just hoping people are going to spend 99 cents on a Kindle copy of your garbage, but I don't know. You know, I don't I don't know how, even if it's a good book, even if AI gets to the point where it's a compelling story, do people want to buy that versus do people want the brand recognition?

SPEAKER_00 29:44

I I think at first it maybe seemed like a novelty, but now human-created art is becoming like a boutique item and it's becoming more desirable in some ways because people are tired of AI slop, you know, the images and all of this kind of thing. So I think I think it's snapping back. I mean, you remember the early days of ebooks, how everybody was sure that paper was going to die, right? Sometimes things don't take off the way people think that they do. I mean, ebooks finally settled at whatever percentage they normally are at, but paper's not gonna die. People like paper books, yeah. People like human-created content.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

It's funny. Um, so my upcoming book, I have I have um sketches in throughout the book, just because I wanted to like almost like storyboards. I wanted to see what things look like. So I created them myself initially, very roughly with AI. Just this is kind of what I'm thinking. And then I found an artist, and I'm like, give me your interpretation of this, but I want this to come from a human being, and I want because it's flavorful for you. Um, and it's just more way more interesting. Um, and they look a little different than what I had imagined. I'm like, Yeah, that's great, that's exactly right because there's feeling behind it.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yeah, there's real creativity behind it, not you know, electrons.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

I mean, do you feel like you know, I don't talk about AI a whole lot on this podcast, but I'm just kind of curious. Like, I remember like a couple years ago, somebody who I know a little bit through another industry had kind of asked me about my books. He's like, Oh, is AI helping you a lot with that? And I was like so like offended in a way, you know, and now I wouldn't be offended because AI is so prevalent now, I get it, but that struck me as like, are you serious? Yeah, do you think I need the help? Right, right. But but now it's like you would feel like that would be not an uncommon question. And I have and I have looked at AI in the sense of like, okay, it's great at taking notes when I'm like, like if I'm reviewing somebody's manuscript for my work, you know, I will read and I'll just be talking as I'm reading, give just giving thoughts because it helps organize my thoughts, really helps keep track. Like, I I'm use AI like a 1950s secretary, you know, take notes, take notes, take notes. Yeah, um, but it is scary because you don't know where all of a sudden, you know, writers start to say, like, oh, maybe they could just they just write this one paragraph because I'm tired.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Yeah, or see now that that that's sort of that language is kind of coming into contracts. I don't know if you've had any recent contracts where it's coming into book contracts that that they don't want the authors using AI. Yeah, you know, that one of the things you're signing off on is that.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

And I know that my agency is is making sure that from the publisher's point of view, they aren't either, right? So it is in some ways, it is kind of getting locked out of like the traditional publishing world to an extent because they want to maintain that human created content, that is their angle on it. I think it should be.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Yeah, no, I I totally agree. Uh, what worries me is where everything starts to blur, you know, because my partner, for example, is very anti-AI, which I a hundred percent understand. But I also am like, you know, AI is much more insidious and much more embedded than I think we just think of like, well, I don't use chat GBT or whatever. Yeah, it's it's everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Um, and so it also depends on your definition of AI, right? Because I mean, let's go back to I don't know, what would that have been? Word 2000 and Clippy. It looks like you're writing a letter. Let me help you write a letter. Nobody would have thought that was AI, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:38

Yeah, that's a great point, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:40

So it it's it's all kind of relative. I think what most people are really afraid of is generative AI, when it kind of starts to, you know, sort of take off on its own and be almost more creative on its own. Whereas everything else was literally just programming.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Yeah, yeah. I I mean that and I think that's true. Um, but it is it is scary because it's almost like saying, like, hey, don't use the internet because it's going to be so embedded into everything. Um, so I don't know. It's I find it just depressing a little bit because you feel like you're losing a collective art form sometimes. But all you can do is sit down and be like, Look, when I'm sitting down and I'm staring at a page and I don't know where it's going, that feeling I get of like, well, let me start doing this, and then all of a sudden something says, What about this? That what if that occurs to you as a writer is irreplaceable in terms of a feeling, I think. And and it's an adrenaline rush, and that's you know, that's why I do it. Not because I think, you know, I need to get this done, or I want to write all these books, or uh it's just like I want to chase that feeling of like going from the unknown to the what if to the execution is I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Yeah, the creative process is very different from the business of publishing. They have to kind of go hand in glove, right? But the business of publishing doesn't exist without the creative process.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

Yeah, I agree. And you need and you need that partnership with your publishers who not only understand your process, but you understanding their process because we see that a lot too about writers who quite honestly publishers don't want to deal with because they're a pain in the ass.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

Yeah, yeah, the diva writer, yeah, or whatever. And publishing is a business, you know. I mean, that's the bottom line is that people lose contracts or series are ended because publishing is a business and you can't be too precious about it. You have to sort of realize that if you want to publish traditionally, you always have the option of continuing that series self-publishing it. Right. But if you want to stick with traditional publishing, you kind of have to go along with their their business. And yeah, I mean, making connections inside the publishing house, you know, having a good publicist that you connect with and a good editor that you connect with can make such a big difference.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

And having your, like, I'm sure you are like this, having that community of other writers who you've cultivated through years and years and years to just talk to and be like, hey, this is my experience. Is this your experience? Because maybe this feels weird to me, or I don't know because I'm in a vacuum. That's been invaluable to me. I know you're part of Sisters in Crime, for example, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:28

No, uh the Crime Writers of Canada is the group that I'm I'm I'm involved with. And yeah, no, it's it's great. I mean, yeah, because you get together, you do events, and you you talk to each other and they do pub night every once in a while. And you know, it's it's it's really great to make contact because writing can be a very solitary process, yeah. Um, kind of an isolationist process. So it's good to make contact with others in the field. And I mean, conferences are great for that. You know, I like to go to BoucherCon, BoucherCon Calgary. Calgary this year. I'm already registered. I got my hotel room, we're all set to go. I'm looking forward to it. Uh, I love Louise Penny, she's gonna be there. Yeah, um, so yeah, I mean, making contact with people at like big group events is is fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

Yeah, and you and you have friends for for life. Yeah, I mean, it's a and it's funny, even just through one of the one of the other reasons for this podcast is like I want to meet other writers, I I want to connect with people, and I you know, even though it can be a lot of work, and after I can guarantee you, after I finish this conversation, as I finish every conversation, I'm I'm I'm energized. I'm like, there's something about having a candid conversation about writing that just reaffirms I love this field, or if I'm working on a student's manuscript and having a conversation about it and and kind of dissecting a plot, you know, it's exciting. I don't know why it is. I think I think that's right. And clearly, what's so interesting about you is you took this 25-year hiatus, and then it's just like you're all in. You're like, this is kind of yes, it was very important work that I did, and I love that. And of course, a person can have multiple personalities in terms of professions, but you can tell you're like, Yeah, this is what I was made to do.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Do you get do you feel that it had been the yeah, it had been the goal for years, and I finally got to the point where where I could could do it, and which was which was fantastic. I mean, that was very gratifying that I was lucky enough to be able to get to that point, right? And at that point, I figured 32 years in infectious diseases, I'd kind of done my best. Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

I mean, and but what do you think the difference is in because a lot of people have goals, a lot of people want to be a writer, yeah. And you know, we talk a lot about the stats about how hard it is to even get an agent, much less getting published. But we don't really talk about the stats because probably they're unknowable of how many people just simply give up. Um, yeah, yeah. And but it's probably a very high number, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:09

I would assume so. I mean, the I mean they always say the the hardest part of it is finishing your first book, right? Is actually like lots of people say, Oh, I really want to write a book, and they maybe even sort of think about it and they write a couple of chapters, and then it just sort of peters off.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Right. And just being able to finish that first book to be able to say, Look, I can do it. Yeah. I mean, that in itself is is you know pretty fulfilling because you know that you have it within you to do this.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

See, I I found writing my first book the easiest, and it was the fastest I ever wrote a book. And I think it was simply because I literally had no idea what I was doing. So you're you're not really taking the time to uh think about the story as much as maybe you should be. Um, I you know, and then it gets harder and harder and harder and harder, and then it kind of just plateaus, and maybe it gets a little bit easier in terms of the physical act of writing.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

Every book to me is really hard.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Yeah, no, it it gets that way. I mean, when you're first writing, it's just you're just writing for the pure joy of it. There's no you're writing for you, and which is great. But yeah, I mean, you're right. I mean, at that point, I mean, that's why I kind of wish I'd seen that that early stuff. I had kept some of that early stuff. Um, it would have been awful, but you there's a a learning curve is a good thing, you know. Um, for the book that I have coming out this year in November, I had to go back and revisit that first forensic mystery series. And the first thing I thought was, okay, as soon as I get some time this summer, I'm gonna re-edit every one of these books because the rights came back to me.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

I couldn't even imagine looking at my old stuff.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

They were published with Five Star, which was part of Gail Sengage, and they closed that mystery line. Okay. So, so I have the rights for those books, and I would I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna just sort of sort of do an edit, like I'm not gonna change the story again, but now I'm a better writer 23 books later than I was when I started that first book. And even through those five books, I could see myself getting better. Like the last book needs a lot less editing than the first book. Yeah, and so I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna re-edit them and just sort of tighten them up a little bit, and just because I want to do that for me, so that they're a little closer to what I'm writing now.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

Yeah, well, that certainly makes sense. I can see that. Um, Jen, we're gonna wrap up before we do. We're all we're gonna do our little storytelling, which is you the which is the reason you you agreed to be on the podcast because you were just dying to do the storytelling part. Um, so I don't have three books selected, so I'm gonna ask you to give me either a color of a book or a genre or a type of author. Give me something, and I'll I'll pick out a book that might work. Let's go with red a red book. Um, all right. So we are gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Please tell me it's not the dictionary.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

It's not, it's John Jakes's Love and War.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Classic. And we're thriller authors.

SPEAKER_02 42:07

As as a so, as a funny aside, I didn't get into reading really until my 20s. I was living alone in San Francisco. I had zero money, I was working in a hotel, and so I would go to a used bookstore and buy the fattest books I could find because more words for my money. So I was already into Stephen King. That was probably one of the few authors. So I would get all the Stephen King's James Clavell, big fat noble house books, Shogun, and then John Jakes. John Jakes, I'm like, that's a big book. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

So I got is that a civil is that a civil war novel? Refresh my memory?

SPEAKER_02 42:43

Love and war probably is. Most of it were.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Um just wondering where we're setting whatever it is you're giving me.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

And and then the type you can barely even see. It's so small. So give me, give me a page number between one and eleven hundred.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

Holy smokes.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Okay. Oh no. Oh boy. This is my fault. I picked red. Um, all right. I am you can do whatever you want with this sentence. It's a very basic sentence. Bitter cold again this evening.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

She picked up her drink and went to sit by the fire. It was so cold that the windows were icing over, and she was worried about when her husband would be able to make it home again.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

She was still wondering the same thing. Three drinks in, her eyelids heavy, the fire comforting comforting her with warmth like a blanket. When she heard the scratching on the windowpane. She thought it was maybe a tree. ranch from the wind. But when she looked over, she realized she was wrong.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

She gathered her courage and walked to the window. She pulled back the heavy drape, the cold wafting over her as she got closer to the pane of glass, and that's when she saw the face.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

It disappeared as quickly as it had appeared, leaving her with a thought that the alcohol was deceiving her, that it was a reflection from something inside the room, that it was a figment of her imagination, her old fears kicking in again, as they tended to do from time to time. But though the face had disappeared, what was still there in red lipstick were three words spelled backwards.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Reading backwards was difficult, partly because of the alcohol, but she very clearly saw the words where you will die. She ran backwards, tripping over her chair and falling onto the floor.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Oh I think we leave it there. I think we leave it there. I mean the next the next obvious move is she has to grab the fireplace poker of course.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Yep. But we did a good job of not managing to make it an 1865 novel.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

No no it's funny sometimes I talk to guests and they're they think we have to be honoring that book and I'm like no no we're just choosing a sentence yeah yeah a lot of these books I don't even remember the plots.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

But yeah yeah if you've it's been a while since you've read them but yeah especially that one that one has maybe been a while.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

Yeah it's been since my 20s uh Jen lovely connecting with you uh it's lovely talking to you congrats on everything and your recent release of Deadly Trade and and I hope thank you that you find a pace that's manageable for you that is the goal every year I keep saying this is the year I'm gonna figure out the work like balance. So one of these years I'm gonna actually make it nice nice well thanks thanks very much it was great talking to you thank you thank you for having me take care okay bye all right friends that is it that is my conversation with Jen Dana who also writes a Sarah Driscoll um that was a good one um you know she had a lot of great insights and as I even said in the interview itself I always feel energized after I speak to my guests and certainly was the case talking to Jen. You know she's motivating in hearing how much she writes and how much she loves her writing. So I don't know. It gives me a warm feeling all over what do you want me to say? If you want to find out all about Jen and Sarah you can go to her website at jenjdana.com you can pop on over to carterwilson.com to check out my books and all the other goodies I have on the website. And if you're interested in any kind of writing coaching go ahead and pop on over to unboundwriter.com. All right friends that's it for this episode thank you so much for watching andor listening. As always another episode out just next week. In the meantime take care