Making It Up with Ryan Steck and Simon Gervais, authors of The Second Son

“The biggest thing you have to be able to do with someone is step back, leave your ego at the door and just really both have the same mindset of like, 'Hey, we're in business together... every decision we make has got to be for the readers.” — Ryan Steck 

 “I get excited every time he sends me new material, then I take over and I do a little bit and he reads it and he said, 'Oh my god, this is so good.' ... It's the new stuff that gets you excited even more often, because you discover what your partner is writing almost in real time. So it's really cool.” — Simon Gervais 

Ryan Steck is a freelance editor, an author, and the founder and editor in chief of The Real Book Spy. Ryan has been named an “Online Influencer” by Amazon and is a regular columnist at CrimeReads. Steck has “quickly established himself as the authority on mysteries and thrillers” (Author A.J. Tata) on his way to being endorsed by numerous #1 New York Times bestselling authors.

Simon Gervais is a former Canadian federal agent specializing in protective operations and counterterrorism. He's the New York Times and #1 Amazon bestselling author of 17 exciting thrillers. His Clayton White series is presently being adapted for TV by CBS Studios with Jerry Bruckheimer TV attached to produce. The Second Son, which was co-written with Ryan Steck, spent two consecutive months in the Kindle top 100 overall bestsellers. 

Among other things, Ryan, Simon, and Carter discuss their different views on the outlining process, how their distinct writing voices come together when co-writing, and how Simon writes in his second language. At the end of their conversation, they make up a dark story using a line from Matt Goldman’s The Murder Show. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Friends, hello. This is Carter. Welcome to this episode of Making It Up, the conversation series, where two writers, sometimes three in the case of today's episode, sit down and talk about craft, talk about our individual writing journeys, talk about books, whatever comes to mind, all followed up with a little impromptu storytelling at the end. Um, quick shout out to my website, unboundwriter.com. If you're looking for individual coaching, one-on-one manuscript development editing, um, I do that kind of a thing. Uh, so you can just go to unboundwriter.com and actually sign up for a free consultation call to see if that's something that might be of interest to you. Um, so today on the show was great. I had two authors on the show today, co-authors. I don't do that all that often, but it was fun to do it today. Um, so I had Simon Gervais and uh Ryan Steck on the program today, and they are the co-authors of the recently, recently released thriller, The Second Son. Um, so Simon is a former federal agent and he's got nearly 20 years in military and law enforcement. Um, and he's um a number one Amazon bestselling author of 16 thrillers, including a novel written for the Robert Ludlum estate. And he has multiple series now in development for television. And Simon I've known for years. Um, we see each other at conferences, we got to know each other through ITW International Thriller Writers. Um, and so it was good to be able to catch up with him a little bit. Uh, Ryan, I wasn't so familiar with, he is the author of multiple thrillers, including Fields of Fire and Lethal Range. Um, and he's also the founder and editor-in-chief of The Real Book Spy, which is widely regarded as one of the most influential voices in the thriller community community. So Ryan has had his pulse on thriller writers for years, and it was actually through an interview between Ryan and Simon where they started to connect to get the idea of co-writing together. So I did spend a lot of this episode talking about co-writing because I'm curious. I've co-written written one book and potentially might do more with other authors. And so I just wanted to pick their brains a little bit about co-writing. It was interesting to hear about their process, their methodology, how they got along, how they meshed, what their actual structure was in getting the work done. And the big question, did it actually make writing any easier? We all have this idea that we're going to cut half the time in terms of you know getting books produced if we just simply co-write. But I know that that's not necessarily the case at all. So this is a great one. I had a fun time talking to them. This is my conversation with Simon Gervais and Ryan Steck. So yeah, it's and it's funny, I don't have a lot of episodes where I have two people on, and I'm always so curious about co-writing. Um, because Simon, I you know, I know you okay. Um, and I this maybe is the first time you've co-written.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Is that correct? Yeah, it's the first time I'm actually collaborating full-time with someone on a book. Of course, I like Ryan, he did the Ted Bells book, I did the Robert Ludlum like so. It's kind of a it's not really co-writing because I was giving like a paragraph that I needed to follow, but I was building a new world within a known universe, yeah. But uh with Ryan for the second son, it's really my first time that I'm like we're writing together, we're building that structure and that universe together. So the same for you, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. For first time, uh, but I will say it it's such a different experience than like when you write by yourself. And you guys off camera or off video here were talking about how you pass each other on escalators and this and that. And I didn't even know this was true until like the first interview we did together. Simon's like, Yeah, we've never met in person. Um, and I didn't I didn't know that we even thought about it. Yeah, um, and so that's true. And then I then I realized like four months into press for this book, I was like, dude, what if we met each other and hated each other? Like, this could be a good thing, like that. We we have it preserved the working relationship, the business side of this. Um, no, it's my first time, and it's it's been uh it's been really awesome.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Yeah, I mean, and that's that's a great point, Ryan. Because so I and I feel like I don't know, I'm kind of there right now too. At some point in an author's career, maybe particularly genre author, and maybe you know, an author who's kind of made some traction, you start to get that idea of like, maybe I should co-write. Would that be fun? Would that be interesting? Would it be easier? Um, and I've co-written one novel that we're still shopping and was just with a friend of mine. It was more of a passion project, but I'm in discussions now to co-write again with somebody else. And that was the first thought. It was like, how are the personalities? Because that I have to believe that's the most important thing, depending on how you divide up the work. So, how did you two even connect?

SPEAKER_01 5:24

I think well, we're in like he was interviewing me for one of my books, and uh he's been covering me since I started in this business back in 2015. And I think over the years, we've kind of formed a friendship or an understanding of each other. I mean, Ryan contributed a lot for the Twitter community, he's always been very, very supportive. So he's an easy guy to to like, he's always been very kind to everybody. And I'm not exactly sure how how it happened, but sometime I think Ryan, you you pitched me a project after one interview we did, and it kind of all right.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

So I was I was interviewing him as a book spy. He came on my Twitch channel, and we were catching up after the interview, and I told him about this kind of like idea, this concept that I had that I liked, and he he Simon was really into it, and we ended up catching up uh a few weeks later, and it was like, Hey man, why don't you send me that? You know, I'd love to look at it. So I sent it to him, and then we started talking more. And it was like, I think we could, you know, do you mind if I put my spin on this type of thing? So it was happening very organically, uh, Carter. Then he sent it back to me, and I don't think he liked a single thing I sent him. Um, because it was like a totally new thing. Like, it was like, yeah, I really loved your idea. I just did a few things with it, and it was like, oh, okay, well, yeah, there's nothing in here that I'd put in there. Um, but it was all better, you know. And I think I don't think you can co-right with anybody. Um, I think the biggest thing you have to be able to do with someone is step back, leave your ego at the door, and just really both have the same mindset of like, hey, we're in business together, so like our customers are our readers, and we need to do everything with them in mind. So every decision we make's got to be for the readers. And we were doing that instinctively already. Like, I've been a book spy 11 plus years now. I mean, I know thrillers, and I know when someone has a better idea than me. And so I looked at what he gave me and it was like, oh man, this is this is better. And then I had some ideas and I started putting some of me into there, and it just it really organically came about where it was like, you know, we should probably try to get a book deal for this if we're gonna do it. And uh Thomas Smercer, you know, preempted it, and we were we were off and running. So, like from the moment it came up to like we had a book deal was like a few months. Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

So the and and in those few months the book was completed.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Oh no, no, no, no. We had like a sample and right, right, in an outline. That's a new thing for me.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

So that's the other thing, like right because of Simon, you Simon, you have the relationship with the publisher, yeah, exactly. Like, I've been blessed to be with them, honestly. Like, you know, I uh to everybody who's been listening for a long time. I mean, they they really my career, I kind of owed it to them. Like when Undem Down came out in 2019, that was my breakthrough novel. I mean, I was doing okay before, but nothing of the chart. But with Undem Down, my my career in publishing skyrocketed, and they've always treated me with like family since day one. So for me, the relationship that I have with Thomas and Merson and Amazon publishing uh in general has been superb. Uh, they've done everything right by me. So if there was a way for me to sell that collaboration to them and bring Ryan into the full, it would be a win-win. And lucky for us, they liked a project and they preempted it based on uh 50 pages, I think, right, or maybe 15, I don't remember, and like an outline.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Right. And it's the whole thing is fascinating to me because uh from the author perspective, this is my take, is just the idea of co-writing on a top-level basis feels like fun, just something different, something you know, to collaborate with creativity, create creatively, and you're just you usually spend so much time just alone that there's something kind of exciting about there's also the allure of maybe like, will it be easier for me? Because you know, yeah technically, maybe I'm doing half the work. I know that's not the case in reality. Um, but then you have all these other considerations, right? Does the story work? Do I get along with this person? Are they going to need a second novel now? Because they don't no one just wants one. It's so you really have to think about maybe the long-term ramifications, or or or am I wrong?

SPEAKER_01 9:52

No, you're right. I think the most important thing to consider when you want to collaborate is how well you have an understanding of your co-writer. Because you've what you've talked about, Carter, is about when a relationship goes well. But like me, I'm sure you've heard a lot of collaboration that didn't turn out that great, and people were miserable during that collaboration. Me and Ryan kind of have an understanding between us before we even approach our agent, before we even approach our editor, we kind of had a moral contract between each other. We knew exactly what Ryan would do, what I would do, what our process would be like, because I'm a guy who likes structure. I'm working on a lot of different things at the same time. So I want to make sure that everything is done correctly and by the book. And Ryan was all in. So when you have a good understanding with your co-writer, this is something we say a lot. Once you understand each other, then what is the objective? For us, it was to write the best book possible to please our publisher and our reader and guarantee a good time to our fans. So when you share that same goal and you're ready to do anything possible to achieve it, then the relationship is very, very easy. And for me, some of my friends asked me, like, out of 10, how would you rate your relationship with Ryan? Like of the book, Simon. I said, you can ask anyone, Carter. It's it's like a 10 out of 10. Ryan and I had so much fun working together, and there's there's no issue whatsoever. I'm happy that we just finished book number two together, and I would love for the publisher to renew it for another one.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

So, Ryan, you know, Simon mentioned about how structured he is and how you had that whole collaboration plan in place before you wrote word one. Did that did that align? Are you are you similarly a very kind of structured person? And you're like, Great, now I have exact boundaries of what I need to do, of what Simon needs to do, and it makes it easier.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

No, uh, total opposite. So this is this is where it was fun. Like I started to say this. I think one of the things you probably don't think about when you're co-writing, it's like, hey, do we see the story the same way? Do we get along? Do we like these characters? The process of writing is different for every author, right? So Simon likes a very detailed outline. I'm not I would never have done outlines. My first publishing contract uh was a two-book deal, and I had the first book done. My agent sold it. First call I ever did with my publisher. Uh, we get on the call and they're like, We'd love to see the outline for book two. And I gave like this very artistic answer of like, I don't do outlines, and I like to let the story find me as I go through it. And I do that, it's not fun. And I did like, and it was just like I could tell it wasn't being received well at all by the faces on the Zoom call. And I remember we hung up, my agent called me immediately, and I was like, This is either great news or awful news. And I was like, Hey, what's up? And he's like, That was that was bold. You don't do outlines, and I was like, No, I don't like out. And he's like, Shut up. Um, you have like a pretty big payment tied to submitting that outline, and I was like, Oh, I mean, I had no idea, I didn't have any clue. So I was like, Oh, no, call him back, tell him I love out. I do outlines all the time. I love them. I'll I'm gonna outline this thing tomorrow. Like, um, and so I don't do like a chapter by chapter outline, I I sort of do like an executive summary, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

But then I find the story, and I never hold to it either, by the way. Right. Well, I think that's the point I was going to make. So I'm I'm with you, yeah. And it's not out of you know any kind of piety or anything, it's just my brain doesn't work that way where outlines work. I my fingers physically need to be moving on the keyboard for ideas to come to me, and I'm convinced it's all up there. I just can't access it until I'm actually writing, as opposed to someone like you, Simon, who you can just see the big picture. If I even try to outline three or four chapters in advance, inevitably I go off-roading and a better idea just occurs to me. So I think when when the publisher needs to know your next story, you know, to your point, right? I think you say, Yeah, here's the story, and then who knows what they actually receive. But at least, you know, the general premise is maybe the same because I can't not change it as I'm writing it.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

That's right. So the thing that's made this work so well, we do a chapter by chapter outline, but just in the same way that like if I'm writing and I kind of know where my story's going, I'm one of my own books, and then I have a better idea, I'm free to go explore that. With Simon, it's as easy as one of us picks up the phone and goes, Hey, you know, I'm working on this part right now, and I just had this idea. What do you think? And the cool thing about like our relationship, we can pretty quickly, and we never really disagreed, by the way. We can pretty quickly look at it and go, which one is better and agree on that, like instantly. So then it's it then it's like, all right, we're gonna move from the outline a little bit. What does that do? And we find our way back onto it. So I would say the the fear that I've always had of an outline is you're so locked in at that point that if you have a better idea, you can't really go explore it, has not been the case at all. What I have found is uh no, I think the the authors like Simon that really do this chapter by chapter outline, it probably is a smarter way because you can write a book so much faster.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

Well, I think I think that's true. I and Simon, I'm sure you can verify this. I've you know, whenever I know what I'm gonna be writing, the actual physical act of writing is pretty easy. I mean, it's gotten easier over the years, right? But again, I'm just not my my my head doesn't work that way. And I would love to be able to outline.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

I think for me, uh, when I started outlining, uh, was when I was writing like three books every three years because I had very tight deadline. Yeah. And uh when I when I submitted my first outline to the Ludlum estate, they needed an outline to prove the story. But you're that's because you're writing with somebody else's name in mind, right? And then I realized it made the actual writing so much easier. Um, because with tight deadlines, like like most writers, maybe you guys are the exception, but I'm a master procrastinator. So I can wait and until I'm a little bit too close to the deadline and I don't know really what I'm gonna do. So before I was outlining, I could write myself in a corner and then realize I am stuck here. I've made, I've I have to do so much backtracking to make that story work. And I didn't like that feeling. I don't like scrapping 20,000 words because I don't know what I'm gonna do with them, and I never want to be late. This is something that I've learned in the industry is that you cannot be late. Uh, because when you have an entire team waiting for your book and you submit it late, then all the chain of production is yeah, is like it's crap. Of course for me, doing the outline allowed me to breathe and be more comfortable and be able to deliver on time every time.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Yeah, I think there's this perception by non-writers, and maybe it's portrayed in in movies of like, you know, of course, like the writers like miss deadlines for by months, by years, and they're so precious that everyone's okay with it. But the cold reality is like you're this is a group project that you're you're in a corporate environment and you are part of a group. Yeah, just because you're the writer doesn't mean you're more important than the person designing the cover. You know, you have to you have to play by the rules. And there might be some latitude, and maybe you missed deadlines, but that doesn't mean they're gonna pick up the next book. And I don't think people appreciate how much being able to get along with others within the publishing universe is as important in writing as the writer as it is to any other, you know, corporate because you hear from publishers like, yeah, that person is a great seller, but they're a dick. I don't want to work with them anymore. That happens all the time.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Especially, I think one of the industry circuits uh to get book deals after book deal is to be easy to work with and respect the people that are in your team, give them respect, don't act like a prima donna. Just like you said, you're you're a clock part of the entire organism. You do your work, you respect other people's work, and it's gonna go well. You might not be the best guy selling the best book or the best author, but if you're easy to work with, you deliver on time, and your fans love your work, you're pretty guaranteed to get a renewal.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Yeah, I think I think that's true because you know, you don't have to sell you know tens of thousands of copies to be somebody worth keeping. You know, you don't even have to necessarily earn out your advance to be somebody who is profitable for the company. The other side of that whole equation, I think, are these, and I certainly was in this place too, and and I'm sure you probably were too. When you get your first deal and your first maybe few books where you're just like, I can't believe I'm part of this show now, and you were almost like too willing to agree to anything, and you're not really asserting your own voice, you know. With my own editor, we disagree on very little, just because she's she's smarter than I am. Like, she all her changes. I'm like, Oh, yeah, I just couldn't see this for myself. But if I do feel like disagreeing, I'll say it. And I think I don't know if Ryan, was that your experience at all where you were just like so happy to be here that you would do anything anyone told you to do?

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Uh no. I've been I've been on I'd been in the industry, I just wasn't writing books, right? So, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

You were you were more savvy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

No, um, I I knew when but like my debut novel, Fields of Fire, when we took meetings with publishers, um, we got into like real discussion about the series, which characters, where what direction would certain things go, how would things play out. And I I sort of had like this vibe back from them of like this is not gonna work. Like, they don't get it. Like, they don't, and I don't want to kill those characters, I don't want to do this and that. I I could say, like, there is one of the big fives that we met with, um, the wife, uh eventual wife of my hero who plays a big role in the series. She's like his moral compass. Like that scene in like uh 300 when Leonidas like looks to the wife and she nods and he kicks the dude down the pit. Like, that's really like what she is to the hero. And they were like, Um, hey, like, uh, can we kill her in this first book? And I was like, Oh man, they don't they don't get it at all. So it was like it was like a no. And uh, and so I was very fortunate, you know, to find a partner for that book in Tyndale, and they've been they've been really great. I've not had that issue um thus far. I mean, I the closest I could come to that is little things writing with Simon. You know, if I have an idea, you don't always like we're writers, we don't usually like talk well through some of our ideas, like they sound terrible in like a verbal pitch. Right, we have it all in our head, right? Just trust me, dude, this will be fire. And then I hear it and it sounds dumb. Like it sounds terrible, and everyone's like, I don't think so, Ryan. And I will say, Simon, there's one thing in particular that like I really wanted to do, and I don't think anyone, I think everyone thought I was nuts. And he was like, to his credit, was like, dude, just go write it and let's see what it looks like. Right. And you can't tell until you have that. No, not at all. And that was my thing, is like, God, just trust me, I'll write it better than I'm I'm saying it. Um, and but it was like the belief in each other to like, all right, well, you know, there's a lot of comfort here. I I think he can probably deliver that. And then we've run into that again. Uh we we just uh we wrapped up our second book together, and there was something that I pitched him, and I I there was like two things I was working through, like a big twist, and then like there was another big twist, and I wasn't sure which way to go. And so I kind of was like, eh, all right, this one, I'll pitch him this one. And it was the same thing. It was like, yeah, let's do it. So this is so funny. So then, like, Simon's finishing his part of this stuff, and and we're going back and forth, and he calls me one day, and I'm driving, and he's like, Man, I just don't know about like that twit. I don't know if it works, you know. I don't, I don't know. And I'm like, Yeah, and he's like, But I do have another idea, I want to pitch you. And it took like maybe 20 seconds for me to realize his idea was my other idea, and I was like, Oh, dude, yeah, no, I'm Already that was my backup plan. Just go, let's go, let's go do that. And it's really honestly that simple. Like, that's what's been so cool about the partnership.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Yeah. 100%. Yeah. So, Simon, what was you know, when you talk about having the process figured out ahead of time, what was the process you decided on?

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Me and Ryan?

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Maybe about like I wanted to have somebody I'm 50-50% uh in it on the actual writing. On the actual writing, like something that we like to say is that there's not a page that we haven't touched, yeah. Um, and we don't know who wrote what at some point because we idiot each other all the time.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

And that's true, by the way, because we got a bad review, and some dude that's like my biggest fan was like, I hate all the Ryan Stack pages, you can tell which ones they are. The Simon ones are fantastic, and I know that dude's lying because even I don't know which ones I wrote anymore.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Uh G didn't like break up POVs or anything. You just both kind of just wrote from whoever's perspective was on that page.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Yeah, I'll tell you right now, there's not like uh I know people we get asked this all the time. So they want to know like, do you do chapter one and then Simon does chapter two? And they want to know how it works, and it's not that simple. Right? It's not that seems like actually a very complicated way of doing it. I I agree. We we would agree. So our whole thing is we both we both write the whole the whole book. By the end of this, it's not my voice, it's not his. It really takes on a third voice that I think works really well. And the reviews, other than the one guy that really hated every word I wrote, um, which like we do this, Simon and I do this all the time. We've been in interviews, and they're like, hey guys, who had this idea? And it's like, I don't know. I it might I think it could have been me, but I could not confidently tell you that whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Like, so I want to I want to deconstruct though a little bit like what does that mean? You does that mean you literally both go away and write a book based on the outline and then come together with both your completed versions and then figure out what sections to keep, or is it like pieces at a time?

SPEAKER_00 23:58

No, that'd be hilarious. Uh that would be no, no, it's more collaborative than that. It's really just going back and forth with something until we're we're happy with it and we like it.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Yeah, yeah, got it. And did that Simon for you? Because I I think when I think about the idea of collaborating, like the the low-hanging fruit in terms of the benefit of it, is you know, we we could theoretically write a complete book in half the time it would normally take me. Um, so I can have this as an extra project and still do my normal writing. Is that true?

SPEAKER_01 24:34

For me, I I can talk for Ryan because he actually is a he's a machine, he writes faster than I do. But for me, two books a year, I did it for a couple years, it was too much for me. So I can do one book and a half, and so for me, writing my own thing and writing a book with Ryan with my name and his name on it, allowed me to publish two books a year. Right. So that's the half a book, yeah. That's the half a book. Uh yeah, 100%. For me, that was the you know, the the the result of that collaboration. When you look at how many words you you do per year, how many books you can publish, that allowed me to get two books out a year instead of only one.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Yeah, and that's that's the other factor of it all is like how similar are you in terms of writing styles. So, for example, I I when I'm working on a novel, I'm only writing an hour a day, and that's between 500 and a thousand words a day, seven days a week. So I can I can actually produce, you know, it takes the reality of it is it takes about eight to nine months to get that decent looking draft down. Um but if I write more than that a day, I start, I can tell I'm I'm I start getting sloppy, I start getting lazy. Um, so to me, it's I have to hold it very much in reverence. I have friends who can write 4,000 words at a sitting, no problem. And I could never collaborate with them because I would just feel guilty all the time. Uh and Ryan, it sounds like you write faster, you're maybe more of a machine. Were you ever like held up?

SPEAKER_00 26:10

No, I mean because um, so my philosophy is write a chapter a day, you know, 1500 words of 2000. If it's a big chapter, 2000.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

That'd be great for me because my chapters are like 600 words.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Oh, yeah. Well, so yeah, mine are not. So it's like the way I look at this is uh with my own books, there's really no reason not to have a first draft. And and look, have give yourself the freedom to write a bad first draft. Yeah, of course. So so I try to have a first draft within two and a half months. I just don't see a reason not to. Um, if I'm writing 2,000 words a day, you know what I mean? Like you're 50 days, you're at 100,000 words. So that's the way I look at it, probably because right now I have to. I'm writing two and a half books a year, which is why I think I always look tired in these interviews. And Simon looks well rested and like he's been in the sun. I look pasty and tired and everyone. Um, no, man, like I really it's a it's a grind, but what I've learned is I love what you said. I don't feel like I write well after that. Um, so I try to get a chapter done. That gives me time to think about it. If I'm working with Simon, that gives me time to think about, talk with him, go back and forth, look at what he's doing. Like, but when I'm just soloing a book, um it takes me maybe like two and a half, three hours to write. Then I have the rest of the day. I mean, I got six kids, and I have a wife who wants to see me every once in a while. Not a lot. Like I come out of my office and she's like, Don't you have stuff to do? And I'm like, Probably, yeah. Um, and so I come back up here. But like I found that if I try to write two chapters a day, I don't like then I don't like the second chapter. What I have found is I'm not the kind of writer. Uh, there's a buddy of mine, Joel Rosenberg, another uh New York Times bestselling author, and he said, You know why they call it a cursor? Like when you sit down at Microsoft Word, it just blinks at you, you feel cursed. And if I don't know what I'm writing, dude, I'm not very creative, which is why, like, when you were pitching this whole, hey, well, you know, we go sentence for sentence thing, I'm like, I'm gonna suck at that bad. Um, I need to know what I'm writing. I have to see it in my head, and then I can go write it, but I can't sit there and just create. So I'll spend more time thinking about what I'm writing than I'm writing.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yeah, yeah. And I and I think that's spoken like you know, a traditional panther, right? Um, because we do, but if you have that outline in front of you, it's a little bit you can hammer away a little bit more. And I think it's funny because we talk about like you just talked about it right there, Ryan. The just the simple and easy math of, and I say this all the time 500 words a day, you can have an 85,000-word manuscript in not too much, and everyone's amazed by that. And but the reality of it is is like okay, at the 20,000-word mark, now your editor comes back and you've got three months of edits to do on the last book, so you got to take so I I keep a little calendar because I'm always curious, and it always takes way longer than I think because you might be writing every day, but life gets in the way. You've got you've got other response, you've got kids. Simon, I know you've got a very busy life, you know. So, and and Simon, to your credit, you have backed off a little bit and said, like, I know my limits in terms of production, and that doesn't mean you can't do it. It means that I'm I'm guessing you started to sense like I can't be the best writer that I can be if I'm trying to do two, two and a half books a year for your pace.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Right, exactly, because I've always enjoyed what I've been doing. I mean, I'm having a lot of fun, but when it's three books, like fully written on just like I'm not talking about collaboration, but three books for me in two years was a maybe a little bit much, like two books a year as well was a little bit much. And I could do it for a couple of years, but after that, it I was not enjoying the process as much. And I didn't want that. I don't want to, I didn't want to lose my passion. So I did have to take a step back and be a little bit more conservative about how I was going to to write everything because you guys, the number of words that you can write a day amazes me. Like I we've told you that offline before. I'm I'm French Canadian, so for me, writing in English is probably a lot harder than than it is for you then.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

That's a whole different level of complexity.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Yeah, it is. Um, so of course, like I'm getting better and better at it, and I think my writing is much better than than the way I speak. And I know you guys understand 100% of what I'm saying, but it's still it doesn't come as easy for me as I'm sure it comes for you.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yeah, yeah. And and I'm always I'm always impressed by that anyway. You know, I I just interviewed uh Clemence Michelon, and she, like, you know, native French speaker, writing very well in English, and the same as you. And it just to me, the idea of, you know, I'm not bilingual by any means, but the idea of conveying the nuance of what you're trying to say, and you you hear it in your head, and then to convey that in another language um with that kind of level of subtlety, it's gotta be it's gotta be frustrating, I would think, at a certain point.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Sometime sometime it is, but as now it's getting a little bit easier. I mean, I'm at book 17 right now, so I know what I'm doing, I have a rhythm, and I'm sure I'm using like the same sentences I've used before. You know, there it was like a formula I think that's part of your voice. It is exactly, exactly. So it's easier now, but it's mostly now when I speak during interviews or things like this, because when I was with the RCMP, like real Canadian mounted police, I used to work in English every day. This was like we were speaking English every day. But now, since I'm writing full time, uh and we're at home, our kids are French, my wife's French. We I barely speak any English except during the interview when I'm on phone calls with my writer's friend or during the conferences. That's about it.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

Interesting. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah, it's hilarious too, by the way, because he says stuff in interviews, or like just when we're working on a book and it cracks me up. So, like, I remember we're doing an interview one time and he's like mid-interview. He's like, Ryan, what what do you guys call it when it's just the one kid? And he's like, Do you call it the the lonely child or the single child? And I'm like, No, dude, neither. It's like an only child. You have a you have an only parent or like a lonely parent, you know, but like it's an only child, like a single child. It's totally logical. Like, yeah, I know for me it is so hard. I use it all the time now, you know. Oh, look, there he's the lonely child, you know. Um, so I feel like I learn a lot, but I I guess I didn't even know, and I'm I'm his co-author, I didn't know that you don't speak in English that much. When you are writing, do you think in French and then have to like convert it to English? I have to, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

More and more, actually, because when I started, I was still working, right? So it was everything was coming out in English, but now I think everything in French, and I need to translate in my head and make it the a wortwal sign sentence in English. So, yeah, it takes a little bit longer.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

That's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

And I would think just going back to the idea of collaboration, the other thing that I think about is there's something attractive about it just to just to do something different, and this sounds very precious, but like you know, Simon Yar has 17 books, for example. You know, I've written I don't know 13, 14, something like that, and I love it. You know, passion is still there, but after a while, you're like something different would be kind of interesting, and that might so, for example, I'm I'm writing this 45-minute murder mystery dinner for this all this charity auction that happened, and I'm putting way more work into this thing than I think I need to, but I'm like, this is exciting because I'm writing a script, I'm they're casting people for it, and but it's just fun, and I think collaboration is kind of this like it's a little bit of an unknown and a little bit, it does it feel like you're shaking things up a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Uh for me, I think I get addicted to the fun that you're describing. You know, when you write something that you're super proud of and you're like, wow, and the way it works, it's Rand and I am gonna read what he does because he's gonna take the lead on something, I'm gonna read it, and I get excited every time he sends me new material that I take over and I do a little bit and he reads it and he's oh my god, this is so good. So it's always that little things in your brain that gives you that gives you fun. I kind of losing what what it is, like the little formula. There's like, is it dopamine or something like that? Yeah, that gets created. So we get that every time when we exchange pages, and I get it myself when I write my own book and I'm proud of what I'm doing. So uh so yeah, doing with Ryan brings that little spark, right? It's the new stuff that you get excited even more often because you discover what your partner is writing almost in real time. So it's really cool.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

And Ryan, were you getting those dopamine hits, or were you like, Oh, I hope this email isn't about how much he hates what I just sent him? No, I mean, I well, you always have those fears early for sure, working with someone, right? Like when you're first starting out, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

And I mean, I've I've heard the stories too. Like, I I have a lot of friends that have co-written, and they're like, I could never write a sentence that they liked. And I'm like, that sounds brutal. Um, we've never had that issue. No, I again I think you have to leave ego at the door, and so you have to both be very honest. Like, hey, did what I just do make this better or not? And is my idea better than yours? And is yours better than mine? And and then you don't really keep score, you know? Yeah, whoever has the best idea, whoever has the best concept, whoever's saying it the best, wording it the best, go with that. You know, we don't really keep. I mean, we mentioned like, oh, we want it to be 50-50. But if it turns out that it's like, hey, we use 52% of me or 53% of him on the net, like it that doesn't, we don't we don't think in those terms, and that's I think what makes it work so well is really we mean it's not just interview stuff, like it's true. I I couldn't look at a page and tell you with confidence exactly who wrote what. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

That's amazing. Well, gentlemen, we're gonna wrap up before we do. We're gonna do our own little storytelling, and Simon will have to translate into French-Canadian and then translate back. So apologies for the for the hard work in advance. Um, this is the making up portion of the show. I have three books that I chose at random from my bookshelf. We're gonna choose a book, choose a random sentence from a random page. I'm gonna read that sentence, and that'll be the first sentence in like a two-minute long short story. So I'll read a sentence, and then maybe Ryan, you give me the next sentence, and then Simon, you give me the next sentence, and I'll do a sentence. And then when it goes completely off the rails, which will be very fast, I'll just call it. Um so I've got Matt Goldman's The Murder Show. Great title, by the way. It is okay. He's a great guy. Uh Martin Edwards, The House on Graveyard Lane, and David Baldacci's The Simple Truth. So, Ryan, pick one of those. First one. Murder show. So, Simon, give me a number between one and two ninety-four. 222. All right, I'm gonna quickly scan page 222 for a second.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

I like that you went to like probably the final act of this one, uh, where it's hopefully ramping up and we got something good to work with.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Well, we'll find out. A lot of uh so Ryan, you can do whatever you want with this sentence. The character's name is Kala, K-A-L-L-A, just for clarification. Kala's eyes shine with tears, but she does not cry.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Kala's eyes shine with tears, but she does not cry. Behind her, the clock was ticking obnoxiously loud.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Inside, she was actually laughing, thinking about the next trick she had up her sleeves.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Macala warned herself not to get too far ahead. There was work to be done. And the most pressing issue was the body of the 17-year-old laying ten feet from where she stood. That's a long sentence for me to uh follow.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Um she looked at her watch and thought to herself 28 more seconds until the second body falls.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

She ran to the kitchen, opened a drawer, picked up the biggest knife, and realized it was a doll. She scratched her head, wondering why.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

She cursed she cursed them again. Them, the people who created this game, who put her in this fake house with windows that didn't open and doors permanently locked. She knew only knew five people had to die before she could taste fresh air again. We can call it there. It's really dark.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

You do really dark stuff.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

I know it always goes really dark. It depends on who my guest is.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

I was gonna go with she looked at the doll knife and thought this is why they say to never bring a knife to a gunfight.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Oh, there you go. Yeah, that would have worked well too. See, we collaborated.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

There's a three writers collaborating on a great story right there. I'll be totally honest with you. It's not all that different when me and Simon are alone on a Zoom call. Like, it's really not. I mean, you're probably darker than us, Carter, uh, for sure. Um but it's not all that different from our actual process, which is kind of hilarious.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Well, gentlemen, what a what a great chance to be able to talk to you and congratulations on the second sun. And um, I'll be a thriller fest. So I hope I hope to at least see you longer than passing by on an escalator. Yeah, it would be nice. At least one beer and some peanuts. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

All right, buddy. Thanks for the invite.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

It's always nice to be with you. You as well. Take care.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

All right, ciao.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

All right, that is it. That is my conversation with Simon Gervais and Ryan Steck. Um, and I like at the end how they said, I go darker. I'm darker than they are. Um, that is a badge of honor. Um, I guess I can't help myself. I don't know why I immediately went to the idea of a dead 17-year-old, but must be Thursday. Um, so if you want to find out more about the second son or about the authors individually, you can go to Simon Gervais Books.com or Ryan's email is or Ryan's website is the realbooksby.com. That's also his um thriller universe platform. Um so check that out as well. And you can always head over to carterwilson.com to look at my books and my newsletter and all the good stuff on there. And you can go to unboundwriter.com to learn more about the services I offer to other writers. All right, that is it. We are done. I am done with this episode. Next episode dropping just next week. In the meantime, folks, take care of the