Making it Up with Marlee Bush, author of Whispers of Dead Girls

“I think that when you don't have an abundance of time, you cherish the time you have more. So that goes for my kids and for writing. I take it very seriously and I do cherish it. It doesn't feel like a job. It doesn't feel like work… But then the same with them, because I'm getting pulled in two different directions. I cherish the time when I can just focus on them more. I think it just helps me to be a better mom and a better writer.” — Marlee Bush 

Marlee Bush lives in Alabama with her husband and children. With degrees in Criminology and English, she’s obsessed with true crime and documentaries. Her favorite stories to tell are the kind that make you double check the locks on your door at night. When She Was Me is her debut novel, and her second novel Whispers of Dead Girls, came out last May. 

Among other things, Marlee and Carter discuss the identity shift that results from getting published, how Marlee started writing while working in a call center, and why making money from writing should not determine your status as a professional writer. At the end of their conversation, they make up a creepy story using a line from Elise Hart Kipness’s Dangerous Play. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Friends, hello. This is Carter. Welcome to this episode of Making It Up, the uh podcast where two writers sit down and have a very uh unscripted casual conversation about the craft of writing, about the publishing journey, all that good stuff. Um, before I get to today's guest, I do want to mention. So we've totally overhauled our website at unboundwriter.com where I do uh one-on-one coaching and we also offer seminars and writing retreats. So I want you to go check out that website because it just looks cool. They they did a really nice job with it. I'm excited about it. But a couple things I want you to note on there. We are going to be offering um a new uh online seminar. The title is called The Visible Writer, and I'm gonna be teaching about all the things that you need to be doing as a writer. Aside from the act of writing, how you need to show up, how you need to have presence, how and that might mean doing book clubs or doing interviews or all the things that you should be doing, how to show up online, how to have your visibility on on display. Um, in this world of AI, having some kind of authentic presence is very important if you are a writer. So that check that out. That's gonna be on May 30th. Um, and we also have some information up about next year's Unbound Writer retreat in Paris. Yes, Paris, France, not Paris, Texas, um, that I'm gonna be doing with Alex Finlay and Clements Michelin. So check out that. Um, we're still kind of in the interest form phase. Um, as of this recording, by the time this episode is out, we might have some more details on there, but you can at the very least join an interest form um for our Unbound Rider Paris retreat in the spring of 2027. All right, let's get to it. I had a great guest today. Oh, did I have fun talking to my friend Marley Bush? So, Marley, um, I got so Marley and I are both with Poison Pen Press, which is an imprint of source books. And so Marley and I, along with some other writers, went to an event last year um to support Darcy Coates, who's also with Poison Pen, on her North American tour. So we all did kind of a joint event at uh Books a Million, and that's where I got to know Marley. Uh, Marley at the time had her second book out, and it's a tremendous novel called Whispers of Dead Girls, which came out um mid-ish 2025. Great book. I read it, I blurbed it. Um, she's a fantastic writer. It's nice and dark, just the way that I like them. Creepy, haunting, um, atmospheric, wonderful tone. Uh, highly recommend that you you check it out. Uh, and you know, after this event, I'm like, hey, you should be on the podcast because I think we'd have a lot to talk about. And we did. We had a lot to talk about. We talked a lot about um kind of just her journey. Um, we talked a lot about rejection. Um, she has a great line in there where she kind of says, I thrive on rejection. Um, and we talked about all these things that plague writers, the insecurities, the finding time. She's got three little kids, um, the need for feedback, which is critical in order to get your book to the best possible shape it can be in. And to um to treat yourself like a writer, which is a very hard thing to do when we tend to be full of self-doubt and self-loathing most of the time. Um, so it's great. She's just, you know, she's just a wonderful person. So I could have talked to her a lot longer. Um, we had a great time, and then we made up a nice little dark story together, as we tend to do. Um, you're gonna love this one, folks. This is I really had a fantastic conversation with my friend. This is my conversation with Marley Bush. So we don't really know each other, but we got to know each other a little bit at we're we're uh Atlanta, right? Books a Million or somewhere outside of Atlanta.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Yep, Fright Fest for Darcy Coates Book Tour.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah, so Darcy was in town from Australia. It's funny, like I, you know, I've read your book, and then um I read Darcy's.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Yeah, oh yeah, it's fucked up.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Like, I it was my first, I forget which one maybe it was the one she was promoting, but I I read it. I'm like, yeah, I know she she leans horror, and I'm like, holy Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Was it the Colt, the Colt Island one? Is that the one you read? Yeah, yeah, it was it was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

It was awesome, and it was it was crazy, brutal. Yeah, and it's so funny because you know, we're there with Darcy, and she's very demure, borderline shy, I would probably say, very grateful for the people who are showing up and just very sweet. And uh, and you know, it's weird because I think we get those questions like, why what's going on in your mind? And and I always dismiss that because I'm just like, you know, everyone's got an imagination, but that I'm like, what is what happened to Dorsey?

SPEAKER_01 5:32

That's so funny. Yeah, no, it's so true. It's like it you just meet her, and she's just the kindest, loveliest human, and then you read and you're like, whoa.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

That was a great event, and it was nice. So this was an event set up by Poison Pen Press, all of our mutual you know publisher, and at a Books a Million in Suburban Atlanta, and you know, Darcy was certainly the the the main name there, but a lot of people showed up, and it I like those things because it just affirms like oh, people still read books, that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

I know, I know. I still I still don't know how I was invited to that event, but I had why do you say that?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Well, I you know stop being a writer with yourself doubt.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yeah, I know. I guess that's what it is. Um, no, it was it was really fun. I had a good time.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Do you like but let's explore that for a second? Like, do you feel like you so I Whispers of Dead Girls is your second title, is that right? Yeah, yeah, second maybe published. Um who knows how many books you have that that that didn't get published.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

If you're like in the trenches, yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Um but do you feel like you know, oh, I'm still slugging away and I'm not worthy of being published? And because I I for years and years and years and years had those thoughts. Still kind of do. It's getting better.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

No, well, okay, I really don't feel that way. I'm not I'm like I was talking to my aunt the other day, and I was like, listen, I don't even read the good reads reviews. I don't read I used to like with my first reads. Yeah, I don't read any of it because I'm like, you know, I'm confident enough that I feel like I I do a decent job. Like you're gonna get you'll get a decent read. I don't not like super confident about it, but you know, it's decent.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Yeah, I mean early on, I think we see is funny because before you're published, all you're hearing about and all you're actually experiencing is just the near futility of actually getting published, which is you know, the statistics are overwhelmingly against any writer about that happening. And I'm talking genre fiction, you know, kind of specifically being published by you know a mid to larger size traditional publisher, and then you get published and it's this amazing thing, and then then you then you have to kind of almost reset some something in the writer's mind has to say, yeah, but you know, yeah, but I don't have 2,000 reviews, yeah, but this. And that's a hard thing to dig out of, I find. I think there's always that, yeah, but going on, and you know, my 11th novel is coming out, and I can always I I can always find something, and it can be poisonous if you're not careful, I think.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Well, I think if if your bookshelf looks like yours behind you, then you definitely deserve to be here. Like I was getting ready for this and I was like, I'm just I'm like in my room. But all the fancy authors have really nice bookshelves behind them.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Well, it's all for the recording of the podcast, of course.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

No, I totally agree. I think for me, it's like it's not necessarily this thing of like, oh, you have to have this many reviews or you have to list. I just I really truly don't care about any of that. I love to write, but it feels like going to the event. I'm such like I'm just a mom, and I've got three kids, and my day-to-day is 100% about them. So anytime I get to do something like that, it just it feels very surreal. Not that I don't deserve to be there, but I just feel like a fish out of water a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Like this isn't Yeah, you haven't you haven't shifted your identity yet. And that's that's something I talk about with aspiring, not yeah, and you're not obviously an aspiring writer, but when I'm working with students through my coaching program, it's this identity shift, which you know, I think almost needs to take place before you're published, because you never identify as like this is who I am. Like you said, you're foremost a mom, which is totally understandable and probably the right way to frame it. But is there space in there to say, yeah, but I'm a professional author, which is, I mean, it took me years to be able to say something like that because you still feel like a fraud somehow. And I don't know why that is, you know. I think for me it was because for for many, many, many years, I was not, yeah, I couldn't support myself or my my um circle with the income I was making with writing. And so, yeah, even though I had gone through all these hurdles and had been professionally published, I still feel weird saying I was a writer, you know, or not. It's still I still felt like I was saying something bigger than I was. And I think that's something that's important to get past. Uh, but it's it's an incredibly hard thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah, and I think I think as a society, we've attached meaning to that, that maybe is not there, like what it means to be a professional writer. Because I know like if I run into some old friends from like high school, they'll be like, Oh, like you have books. I'm like, trust me, it sounds a lot fancier than it is. Like it's just we've attached so much meaning to it that's I feel like not even very realistic for most people who write.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

But I think the flip side of that is are they attaching the appropriate amount of meaning to it? And we're just immediately diminishing, you know, because I another way to look at it. Yeah, I think that's what happens a lot of times. Because, yeah, so for example, the lay person, it this is in my experience, who would say, and would wouldn't you maybe a relative is like, oh, so you just do this full time now? And you're like, what are you high? Like, like, do you know how little it pays and this and that, you know, until you have maybe a big breakout book? But it's like, why can't you just accept a like, yeah, no, I'm I'm on the path, I'm not doing it yet. But you know, I've I've gotten to a place that 99% of writers don't get to, and I'm very grateful for that. And but there's more, there's more road to go. But that's I don't know, it's funny. I think the psychology of writers is is fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Yeah, we're all very different.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Like we are so how did you, you know, uh and I remember we were talking about you because your kids are fairly young, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Five, three in 18 months.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Oh yeah. So you're you're you're in the thick of it. You're you're you're knee deep in the muck for years to come. But you know, we figure out how to do it. But where did you, where did that all, where did the writing come from? Because it probably started before before you had any kids, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Yeah, actually, I I uh I always wanted to write. I think every writer I hear, like mostly every writer says that. Like you just always you're just you just have a like a calling for it or whatever. Um, but I wrote my first book in 2017 by hand when I was working in a call center. This was before I had any kids. So uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

But suddenly I we've got to back up there. Okay, this is actually something that happens a lot on this show. If someone's like, yeah, I wrote my first book, whatever, and then I'm like, no, no, no, let's that's because it's a big deal, and it's an even bigger deal when you're writing it by hand. So you're in the you're working in a call center, which I imagine maybe doesn't feel like your life's calling, and you have what? Like, what's was there a thunderbolt? Was there what happened?

SPEAKER_01 13:25

No, okay. I had to be at the call center at 5 a.m. I had to leave my house at like 3:30 in the morning, and the calls would come in. There would be such big breaks in between calls that I would just kind of be bored. So I just brought a notebook and I and I would just write in between calls. I mean, I would have sometimes 20 minutes in between calls.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

So, like in between getting cussed out for not waiving a credit card fee. I'm just trying to write.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Wow. And and you are, yeah, and you have and it's almost the logistics of you obviously have to handwrite because you can't just have your laptop next to your call center computer. Um, but were you because it's funny, you and I, you're the only person I've ever met, actually. Other person who started writing a novel out of boredom. And that's how my writing career began. Um, but I had no zero background training, classes, schooling, what desire. When you started just having this notebook, was it like I, you know, I write short stories all the time, so maybe I'll do something longer, or just like I'm bored and I'm just going to exercise my imagination because I can't do it in my job.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

No, I like I said, I always wanted to be a writer. So I in my mind, I'm like, okay, one day I'm gonna write a book. And then I just had the time, so I was like, might as well try it a shot.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

And so did that become your first published novel.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

What a good question. Of course not. Of course not, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

I set you up on that one because that's the that's the other, you know, the lay person's perspective. It's like you write a book and you become famous, and it's like, no. So so you write this book by hand, and then I assume then you put it all on the computer, which is probably another massive task, or oh no.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

10 out of 10. Do not do not recommend writing by hand first. I had to, yeah, put it all on the computer, it wasn't fun.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

But that gives you the opportunity, I assume, to that's your that's your first pass is like I'm editing as I'm transcribing in a way.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Yeah, and maybe that was helpful because until you write a book, you don't know if you can write a book. And so maybe that was helpful having that to be able to make that first pass on it like that. But I don't know. I kind of blacked out.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

The beautiful thing is no one that can ever accuse you of of having AI write your book because you're like, I can just show you my handwritten pages. Um so so you're right. So now you have a completed you know, document in Word or whatever. And do you know what to do? Do you know, like, oh, I need to query agents? What's a query letter? How did because I didn't know any of that stuff, so I just had to be Googling furiously to figure out how do books work.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Same. And and you said that you didn't even like want to write. Is that what you just said? Like you were just getting away.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

I was never, it was never in my sphere of desire. Like I was a business major, I was in real estate consulting, and I just started one day because I was taking a class that I was so bored in, and there was no smartphones. This is 2003, that I posed myself a murder mystery riddle, I wrote it down, and I couldn't figure out the answer. And then when I got home, I just kept writing. And then you have that moment, like I think to your point earlier, is like, is this what I'm supposed to do? Is this the universe saying pay attention to this because nothing like this has ever happened to you before? Maybe you should pursue this a little bit more. So I was completely green and didn't know what I was doing.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

That's really interesting. And then uh, yeah, yeah, same. Like, same for me. I wanted to be a writer, but that's that's sorry, just coming back to this. I feel like you do a lot of things that I think are strange. So, like, remember when we were talking, we were talking to Georgia. Didn't you say that you don't plot your thrillers at all? Like, you don't even know how it's gonna end. Didn't you say that?

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Correct, yeah. Oh my gosh, I don't think that's strange, I think that's pretty common. That's just again, that's how my brain works. Like, I can't, I can't.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Wow, that's crazy. And then you didn't even know you wanted to write until you wrote your first book. That's also very interesting to me.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

But I'm also fascinated by people who just can start working on a plot and then they just see the pieces fall into place. And I'm like, how do you know? Like, I have to be so deep into the story for things to kind of unfold in front of me. Yeah, literally, to so it's funny. Literally, today, I my next draft is due, my next book is due in August, and I'm already at the 70,000 word mark. So I know I've got say 15,000 words left, you know, roughly. Um, and just today, this morning, I'm like, oh, maybe this is how it all ends. And I hadn't ever thought about it in concrete terms until 70,000 words. But for me, my brain needs those 70,000 words in place in order to because it's hopefully it's it's your subconscious just working towards the inevitable. Um, but people who outline can do that in a much more pithy and fast fashion. And I don't I don't understand how people do that.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Though, but honestly, I feel like maybe you're getting it right because when I even when I outline, it's not like stuff falls together. I'm like, ooh, this is gonna be a book. It's like I'm forcing puzzle pieces together, and I can tell when it doesn't work, but I'll write through it and then I'm looking at it and I'm like, it still doesn't work, and then I'll might like adjust the outline or whatever. So it's maybe it's kind of similar, uh, but maybe you've got it right in not trying to force those pieces.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Yeah, I don't think it's even right or wrong. I think it's about what what I think a big mistake I see is I think I think uh there's a lot of writers when they're starting out who are trying something that's not organic to them. And that doesn't mean you can't try something that you're not used to and it's hard work and you got to get used to it. But I think I think you should try totally different methods and just and and it's going to take hundreds of thousands of words, and you'll finally like, oh, this is how I write best. Oh, this is my voice. Um, you know, because you do, because if I try to outline, that's exactly what happens to me. I'm like, I feel like this is getting very forced. I feel like it's beginning getting predictable because I can't think in nuanced terms when I'm outlining or if I'm trying to outline. So it just becomes very generic, thrillery stuff rather than like, oh, I don't think the character would do this. All of a sudden you have that what if moment halfway through the book, like, what if you just did this? Like, what does that mean? And those, I mean, that's where for me where the joy comes from. It's like the that those moments of discovery. We're like, holy shit, what if you just died? Like, what would happen? Like, I love that stuff, and that doesn't always mean it's the right choice, but it's exciting.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Yeah, like you know when you've done something right, like when you're writing and it clicks into place. That happened to me the other day, and I was like, Oh, this is so good. Like, you know, that's just like that one little thing that clicks into place, and you're like, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Totally, totally. It's and and I think it's a matter going back to the subconscious of trusting that. So you know, and I have all these little weird examples, but like my fifth book was called Mr. Tender's Girl, and it's M-I-S-T-E-R, Tender T-E-N-D-E-R. And um, I just liked a title with the name Mr. And Mr. Tender is this kind of evil comic book character, and tender just because I don't know why I just picked that word, right? I just thought it was kind of ironically creepy. And then I started writing, I'm like, oh, maybe he's a bartender. Maybe this comic book character is a bartender, and that's his backstory. So it became that. And then I started realizing I needed some kind of weird anagram.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Wait, don't don't don't give any spoilers. I'm not giving anything away, but I'm gonna tell you it's on my bookshelf and I'm bringing it on vacation in two days. It's gonna be my vacation.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

No spoilers, but I I I started doing this. Like, I'm like, now I want I wonder what an anagram of his name would be if I put it in an emigram. And there's and it became Mr. Interested, and I'm Perfect perfectly. And I'm just like, that's so weird. None of this was planned. But I'm like, it actually worked perfectly for him doing what he needed to do under a different name. And I'm like, that's just that's just magic. You know, yeah, you or luck, whatever you want to call it. But I've had a number of instances where things have just like, yeah, it all just came to this inevitable thing that I didn't plan. But it is a little bit more than luck. But that's only because that's I'm trusting how I write. If I tried to force it, I never would have figured any of that stuff out.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

So do you experience the phenomenon where you think that you've like this has happened to me where I'm like, oh, this is genius. But then, like, when the book comes out, that's not the thing that people care about.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Yeah, it's never the thing. And it's so funny, which is which is hard because I think what you're describing also then makes the author go back into that those layers of self-doubt because you're like, Well, I thought this part was great. Not saying that those great parts are then slammed, they're just not acknowledged. Um, you know, my book before last one, The Father She Went to Find. I look at that book, I'm like, this is some of my in personally, I think some of my best writing. Like, I there's some scenes in there that I'm like, I and it's rare that I say this, but I'm like, I love how this is written. And that's one of my favorite characters, and that's one of my least popular books. You know, don't you hate that? Yeah, my editor wasn't crazy about it, and and all for very, very valid reasons. Like, I, you know, I can look at it kind of fairly objectively, and I'm like, I get it, but it's very dear to me. And, you know, and then tell me what you did takes off. And I think I love the book too. But to me, I'm like, I'm just gonna write this angry in your Facebook. And I wasn't thinking about like the beauty of the language and this and that, and and and it just takes off. So it's like you never know.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

You just don't, you don't know what you're gonna trigger. And I feel like with tell me what you did, there was something so just nostalgic. There was like Halloween movies, and there was just it was such a callback to that for me, and you just never know what's gonna trigger that in people.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yeah, it's so weird, and which is I think why it's the best advice is not to write to the market, you know. I I just I think it's so important to just write to you, like what brings you joy, what is interesting to you, what would you read um rather than like what's popular right now, because that just it just might not fit who you are as a writer. So when you go and write something, because you you obviously write fairly dark, right? Um, and and I think we're similar in the in the sense of you know, we like characters who have a traumatic past that maybe was never fully addressed or worked on or healed. Um, not that it can never necessarily heal, but and then you're in a situation where all of a sudden you're kind of forced through all of that past again by current events. Um, and I think Whispers of Dead Girls is is a great example of that. Um, but when you're writing, are you are you thinking of like, okay, here's my character now, but I know something. What are their layers? What are their layers that I'm going to eventually show? But it's not shown at the beginning, it's like unpeeled. Like, here's here's the damage as you start folding things back.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Honestly, I feel like that stuff comes out in the editing process because my first drafts are such bare bones, they're like 60,000 words, honestly. My very first draft.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Because you have a solid structure, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

But I really do need feedback from like you know, my agent and the editor, and then like I have people who will read for me. That's when I start figuring things out a little bit more, but definitely like through the editing process. I don't really know them, like the characters very much on the first draft, which is like a weird thing to say, but I really don't.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

No, I totally get that. I get that because like my protagonist now, 70,000 words. I couldn't tell you what he looks like. I haven't I haven't described him at all in the book because it's for it's from his perspective, so he's not describing himself. So I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what color his hair is. Um but it's funny, and but on some books you're like, I get this person, and on other books you're like, I see this person. I don't know if I have a deep, I don't know if I have a deep empathy for them. I because yeah, I don't know. It's weird, uh, even after you spend what a year with them and you're like and and I don't know if that's a bad thing or not. I don't know if like you should absolutely be like a hundred percent seeing them in your sleep, but I'm not like that. Me either.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

I don't I'm not, and I like I'll talk to some authors who are, and they're like, Yeah, like I know their favorite drink flavor, I know what they would do in this situation, like they just know everything about the characters, and I'm like, I just know what's on the page, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Right, right. But if that works for you, so but I'm interested. So when you you get to finally getting your first book published, right? And that first book was Poison Pen, also, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Yeah, yeah. Um, so Poison Pen is our mutual publisher, it's an imprint of of source books. Um you didn't give your agent or your publisher a 60,000-word manuscript, I'm assuming, that time, right? I or was it so? How did you finish that one if you need that feedback?

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Okay, that's a good question. Um Well, I okay. So it my first book, which was really my fifth book.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Oh, fifth, okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

It was my fifth, yeah. Uh it it was an interesting situation. When I queried it, my agent signed me, but we knew when she signed me that we were gonna do a really big overhaul on it. So to sign me, all I had to give her was an outline of these edits that we had both. She she gave me this idea and she was like, What if we did this? I was like, okay, so I did an outline and then she signed me before I had it written. So ever since my first book, really, I've gone into it. And then my agent now, like I'll run ideas past her, she's very editorial with the outlines and stuff. And so, like, I just have that now that this feedback cycle.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

That's great because not a lot of agents are like I mean, my my agent is also very editorial. She gives me great notes, and I don't know if I ever appreciated that as much until I heard from some peers who are like, Yeah, my agent doesn't even read it. They're just like, send it to the publisher. And I'm like, What? That's insane. And maybe that's con I don't know, but I like you, like I need that advice because I trust you so much. Um, so you so it was your your fifth book was your first published book, and your fifth book and your first published book was also your first agented manuscript. So you had four books that you just kept trying and kept trying and kept trying.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

And so, you know, the low-hanging fruit kind of question, but it's still fascinating to me because I get it a lot, is like, what made you keep going? Right. Yeah, and and it's kind of more than just well, I always wanted to be a writer. It's there's something beyond that. And what was it for you?

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Oh, I thrive in failure. Like, I tell people that.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

No, that's gonna be the book quote for this episode, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

I thrive failing. If and I think about this, even there's always like everybody's talking about your goalpost move. You get the agent, you get the book deal, then you want you want to make lists, you want to do all these things. For me, if I don't have those things, that's my motivation. I feel like if I were to get everything I would want, it might take the joy out of it for me.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Yeah, I hear you. And there's there's a level of tenacity I think that most published authors have or have demonstrated in their past of like, you know, there's very common someone will read a book and be like, I can write better than this. Um, or all the rejections, I'm like, they don't know what they're talking about, or you know, I'm determined to see my book on a bookshelf. Um, and then I think there's also the attitude, which I think is a very correct attitude, is like, it's not ready yet. You know, this was these four books that you write, that's your education, that's your college. Um and so they prepare you to write that fifth book, and that fifth book never would have happened without those four. And I don't think a lot of people look at it like that. They just look at failure, existential failure, and they don't see it as training. And, you know, because even after I got published, it was several books in where I can go back and be like, okay, this is I think where I found my voice. Um, it just takes a lot, a lot, a lot of writing to get to a place where you're like, okay, this is who I am. Um, so I mean, that's so funny that you say you thrive in failure. That's that's I guess that's healthy.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

No, it really is healthy for me because and when I say that, I don't mean like I aspire to fail because that would be silly, but just it just doesn't get me down. It's just like of course I was bummed anytime I was about to have to shelf a book, but there was always this thought in my mind of like, well, I have this other idea that I'm really excited about, and it I just poured all of it into the new into the next thing, and so that's what I still do.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

So, what do you do now? Who who's your editor again?

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Jenna.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Jenna, you're with Jenna. Okay. Um so when you're working with Jenna, do you say that? Like, here's a paragraph of what I'm thinking about for the next one. Does this strike you as something that you want? Um, because sometimes we don't even know that depending on if we've just doing one book at a time. You know, so for years and years and years, what I did was like I just went off and wrote whatever I wanted to write. Nobody knew what I was writing, and then I would just give it to my agent, and then we'd give it to Poison Pen and cross our fingers that they would want it, because you don't know, it's scary.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Yeah, it is. Uh good question. I actually for my so for Whispers, my second book, I kind of just had the book written because I wrote it whenever I was on sub with when she was me, and they happened to like it. But for yeah, and actually, with so my next contract is two books, and with that first book, it was written too, and I just sent it to her, and we were like, Do you want to buy this for the option or whatever? Uh, but for my second book in this option for the first time, I did send her a pair. There was two paragraphs for two different pitches to ask her her preference on it. And this was the first time I've done that. So we'll send her a bit.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

And the second book being a standalone, yeah, a standalone. Yeah, yeah. That's and because that's all I've ever written too. And so it's like, you know, I when I signed a two-book deal and they wanted the second idea, I'm like, so you write, it's funny, like you write, like, like you said, a couple paragraphs. I'm like, what about this? And you know, and then the non-outliner has to make up something, and then I give her my first hundred pages just to make sure I'm on track. But like, you know, the next 300 pages are gonna be wildly different than what I said it was gonna be. Because that's I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Yeah, insane. And I'm always like, I've not been in a position yet where I've had to give a hundred pages to somebody, and I hope I'm not like for this, even though she commented on the pitch she wanted, I'm still gonna give her the full book. But because my first hundred pages are definitely gonna change. That's just how I'm 100%.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

So it just feels weird and like too much pressure to send it before it's completed to anybody.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

I think what they're looking for, and and and it was my idea to do it, because I'm like, I don't want it, because what usually happens with me is that uh, you know, I'm with Anna uh Michaels, who's a fantastic editor. I've been with her for like seven or eight books now. But because I don't share well as a result of the fact that I don't outline, um what happens is this, you know, three or four months of editing with that first editorial letter. It's like, yeah, but what about a subplot? What about something like, you know, this feels 2x to me? You know, stuff that I just didn't can't see for myself. So it's all great stuff. But it would be nice not to have to do that so much. Uh so I send her the hundred pages, but I think what the even knowing those hundred pages are going to probably change a lot, I think they're making sure are we pulled in? Do we are we and what's the vibe?

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Like, what's the vibe? What's the vibe?

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Are we connected to the protagonist? Because you know, I usually just write one point of view, so you gotta be pulled in by this one point of view, and and you never know. And sometimes I alternate between this book is a male point of view, this book is a female point of view, and it that could resonate differently with with her. And um, it's it's scary, so you just you just never know. But I've kind of resigned myself to know, like, yeah, every book I do is going to have pretty substantial edits that are smart edits that's gonna make it better, but like, yeah, then you have to stop whatever you were working on because I can't write two things at once. And okay, the next two to four months is going to be rewrites of this, and so it's just a whole it's a whole process. So, when is what is the next one? When it's we are you three little kids, are you make you've got deadlines now?

SPEAKER_01 36:26

You've got yeah, uh people used to say things to me like you write so fast, uh, but they don't say those things to me anymore. Because um I literally I was talking to my husband the other day, and I was like, Okay, I was listing all the things that I'm gonna have to do before like June book wise, yeah. And he was like, How are you gonna do all that? And I was like, living on a prayer here. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Yeah, so what is like you know, you are not in a unique such situation, right? There's a lot of writers out there who have in you know insane life responsibilities concurrent with their writing. In your case, it's your job and you have deadlines, and you know, you have stuff that is due. What do you how do you what is your advice to people like you? You know, for me, I'm writing an hour a day, so I can get all that other stuff done, but it's about the consistency. How are you, how are you juggling everything right now?

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Same, uh, same as you, uh, an hour to two hours a day during nap time and just being very, very consistent. That's literally the key. It's just being consistent.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Do you have time then? Because, you know, someone like me with kids who are in their 20s, I don't have to worry about those responsibilities. So if I didn't get the writing done in the morning, I can always do it in the afternoon. You have a different life. So, do you have hours that are sacrosanct and you're like, no matter what happens, I'm out for these two hours.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

I wish. I I try to do that with nap time. I'll put on a movie for my two older ones and I'll put the youngest to for a nap. Every now and then that time gets messed up, but really it's honestly just whenever.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Sometimes it's like nine o'clock at night, sometimes it's five in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

It just fluctuates.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

So you're you're at home with the kids, and you're just like, all right, I think I got 42 minutes right now, if I'm lucky. And so that's kind of what you're you're just popping in when you can.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Right. Yeah. And my kids are usually like in and out. They're like, open this, get me a drink, get me a juice.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Right, right. It's not like you can just write. But I think that's I think that's amazing because I think that's what you have to do. Uh you know, the unpublished writer says life gets in the way, and you're like, this is life. You know, my kids are the number one priority, but right behind it is this writing, and you know, somehow I've got to figure it out. And I think underneath all of that has to be this profound love of it, right? Yeah. And I think that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Why would you do it otherwise? Yes. And I think that when you don't have an abundance of time, you cherish the time you have more. So that goes with for my kids and for writing because I know I don't have a lot of time. I take it very seriously, and I do cherish it and I do love it. It doesn't feel like a job, it doesn't feel like work. It just, it's like I need it as a little reprieve for my three beautiful children. But then the same with them, because I know like I'm getting pulled in these two different directions. I cherish the time when I can just focus on them more. And so I think it just helps me to be a better mom and a better writer, which I know sounds kind of crazy when you're talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

That's very well said. And I get the sense from you that even if you were still unpublished at this point, you would still have that attitude. Like it's, and I think that's where struggles kind of come from a some of the time, is that you have someone like yourself who is just dedicated to the craft and maybe hasn't been published yet. But then the outside world kind of says, Oh, are you still doing that little hobby thing? And they diminish it, and you're like, you know, no, you don't understand. I'm a I'm a professional writer who just hasn't been published yet. Um, and but it's hard because it erodes your own soul a little bit. I know because you start looking at it as a hobby and you're like, is this silly? And it's it becomes poisonous unless you really have a tremendous support system.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Yeah, it's like we've attached a lot of meaning to money and things that make money, but so much about life and like some of the most beautiful parts of life, you're not making any money.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

So even like if you're not making money at when you're writing, it doesn't mean you're not a writer.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Right, right. And evidence of that is you go to this event in Atlanta that we go to together, and you have these people showing up to see all of us, and then they go to you and get and and want your your autograph, and you're like, all right, I might not be making millions of dollars, but no one's asking an accountant making millions of dollars for their autograph. Yeah, you know, it's it there's and not to say that it we need that ego, but you have that direct sense of like, oh, I'm influencing somebody's life, I'm providing entertainment for somebody, and that's fulfilling in a way that money can never speak to, I think.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

The things that us broke writers tell ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

I know. Am I just am I just making shit up at this point? No, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

No, you're really you're really not, you're really not. I do think like, yeah, I think that if you're if you're writing and you're not making money, that tells a lot about you because like you're finding true joy in it and it's it's fulfilling you in other ways, and that's important. You you can't, you're not just like you know, throwing some words on the page to get some money, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:10

And and I think it's great to have also have the objective beyond you can be whatever, like you can write just for the love of writing, and I think that's amazing. If you're writing to be published, I think you should have that attitude that you should keep writing, but you should also be vulnerable enough to like be open to criticism to because you have to get better. Um, and I only got better through feedback, you know, and and then just the the process. Um, you know, but I see people who are like, you know, 10 years in, and they're like, when is it going to happen? And it becomes very difficult because I think the market's also gotten tougher, too. I feel very fortunate that we're both in the market, at least now. Yeah. And I think it's getting more and more. I don't know if competitive is the right word, but there's just a lot of product out there. Um and fewer eyes to take a look at it, so it's difficult. Um, but yeah, you've two-book deal, like you're you're entrenched, you're in it.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

Yeah, yeah, there's no escaping.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

And we're where you know, and just kind of on a final note, we're with a great publisher. Um, you know, I was with Sourcebooks before there was a poison pen press, and I have just seen them grow. They were already big, um, but I've seen them grow into the top one of the top five publishers now. And then really, I remember having the the initial conversation with Anna when she was telling me, Oh, we want to get into kind of really lean into mystery thriller suspense. And I'm like, oh, that's cool. Um, and now you look at Poison Pen Price, and it's it's massive, man. It's

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Yeah, I love it. I'm so glad I got in when I did. Like I feel like uh I slipped in right before because like like you said, things get a lot more competitive, and I feel like they are now, even in our publisher too. But like I feel like I squeezed in the back door just in time.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

So yeah, and I think like I I I never feel like well, so for example, our publisher also has Freedom Ecfeb, you know, obviously a bit of a name. And I never feel like I'm competing against Frida. What I feel like sometimes I compete for, or not even compete, is what becomes difficult are like PR marketing resources, which they have totally internally addressed. They're like, let's grow our team. So authors are all getting the support that they need as their books come out. Um, but it's been a fast growth. So there's been obviously some growing pains and things like that, but now they've added people. So it's you know, it's just trying to keep up with sales volume more than and and number of titles that they're putting out.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Yeah, and I feel like I feel like they do a really good job of distributing their titles.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Just just in general. I've I literally don't have any complaints. But when I came into publishing, I say this to people, but I don't think they believe me. I had zero expectations.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

When I say zero, I mean like if one copy sells, I'll be happy.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

I was telling my family, I was like, I think you guys all need to buy this book because I'm probably gonna sell like 17 copies. So I have obviously exceeded my expectations of zero. So it's just it's just like anything I get, I'm very excited about because I expect nothing.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

Yeah, yeah. Great attitude to have. Well, Marley, we're gonna wrap up. Before we do, we're gonna do our own little storytelling. And you've seen the show, so you know what this is about. I have three books that I've kind of randomly picked off my bookshelf. You're gonna choose one. We're gonna pick a random sentence from a random page. I'm gonna read that sentence, and that'll be the first sentence in like a two-minute long short story. Um, we'll just alternate sentences back and forth. So I have um Allison Brennan's The Missing Witness, um, Elise Hart Kipness's Dangerous Play. These are all thrillers. Uh, and The One Who Knows by Lisa Matlin. So choose one of those. And I'm gonna shut my door because my cat's howling at me. All right, so pick one of those.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Let's do the middle one.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

The middle one was Elise Hart Kipness's dangerous play. So give me a page between one and two seventy.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Let's do 200.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

That's so weird. I just opened up the book and it's on page 200.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

That's that's really see, it's all that subconscious stuff I was talking about. Um, so I'm gonna quickly um scan this. It's a lot of dialogue. Um, so I'm gonna read this and you do whatever you want with this. So it's just okay somebody talking to another person. Um if that's true, I say, feeling exasperated, why not just tell me?

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Okay. If that's true, why not just tell me? Because I can't tell you I can't tell you the secret. This is something that's too big for any of us, trust me.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

He was being coy again, just like he did frequently throughout our entire 20-year marriage. There was always a secret, there was always something left unsaid, but this felt bigger. Who is she? I asked.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

He looks down, seems to gather himself, and looks back at me and says, Who is who? I I don't know who that person is.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

It's funny how insecurity worms its way through your gut over the course of a marriage. Eventually it either dies out and you get over things or becomes something that can only rupture. And I feel it in my guts, the rupture beginning. And I look over to the side table where I placed the scissors.

SPEAKER_01 48:43

He doesn't know about my past, he doesn't know what I'm capable of. Slowly I inch for the scissors, he's not really paying attention because he's too caught up in his own thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

And it hits me in the moment how two people together for so long can be complete strangers. I don't know who he is, and he sure as hell doesn't know me, my fears, my intentions. And it could just be in these final moments of our marriage that we'll see each other for the first time. We can just call it there if you want.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

I feel like I feel like that should that was the ending right there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Oh, nothing like a good marriage gone sour.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

Yeah, that that went dark fast.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

It usually does. I'm so glad we got a chance to catch up, you know, after after talking last year. Are you am I gonna see you this year? Are you gonna be at Thriller Fest or I don't know?

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Probably not. Yeah, maybe, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

The whole kid thing, the whole responsibilities. Well, I'm excited to you know, hopefully keep talking to you over time and then follow your career and to catch up again sometime soon.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

Yeah, perfect. Thank you, and thank you for all the work you do in the community.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

Oh, my pleasure. Great to talk to you, Marley.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

You too.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Take care. Bye. Bye. All right, that is it. That is my conversation with Marley Bush. I hope you enjoyed it. I know I did, and I love the little storytelling at the end because, as she said, it went dark fast. Um, if you want to check out her book, Whispers of Dead Girls, or it or her other title, or anything you want to know about Marley, go to her website, Marleybush.com, and you can pop on over to CarterWilson.com if you want to check out my books and all the other offerings I have on my website, or you can go to unboundwriter.com if you're interested in uh any kind of one-on-one private writing coaching or my seminars and retreats. And make sure you check out the information we have about a retreat in Paris next year, as well as the Visible Writer class that I am featuring on May 30th. All right, friends, we're wrapping up. That is it for this episode. Hope you liked it. Uh, I know I did. It was a good one, another one out just next week. In the meantime, as always, take care of the thing.