Making It Up with Emily Carpenter, author of A Spell for Saints and Sinners

"I’ve really been able to lean into that Southern Gothic with a touch of horror... It’s that concept of… is it a ghost or is it the guy? There is always that element in my books. Is it real, is it not real, is it an unreliable narrator having psychosis or is it truly something supernatural?" — Emily Carpenter 

Emily Carpenter, a former actor, producer, screenwriter, and behind-the-scenes soap opera assistant, was born and raised in Alabama. After graduating from Auburn University, she moved to New York City and now lives in Georgia with her family. She is the author of Amazon bestselling Burying the Honeysuckle Girls and The Weight of Lies.

Among other things, Emily and Carter discuss Emily’s research on witchcraft and psychics for her novel, writing vague endings, and how a unique voice can elevate a generic plot. At the end of their conversation, they make up an intriguing story using a line from BJ Magnani’s We’ll Always Have Poison. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Friends, hello. This is Carter, and welcome to this episode of Making It Up, the conversation series, where I sit down with another author and we talk about whatever comes to mind. Um, and it's interesting in this case, and I'll get to my my guest in just a moment. This was a repeat guest. Um, so then we tend to talk a little bit more about a specific book, or we just go totally off-roading when Yeah, I try not to cover the same territory where I covered in the initial episode. Couple things before we get to today's guests. Um, boy, a lot of things. I got a lot of stuff going on. Just redid my website because every time I have a new book coming out, I redo my website with the wonderful people over at Zuni who I've been with for 15 years, who do my website. Um, so if you are interested, go check it out because it's beautiful and it showcases my new book, When They Find Me, that will be coming out in November of this year. It is um, I'm gonna be talking a lot more about it as the episodes go on this year, but I will say it takes place in the remote, uh in a remote uh mountain town in Colorado, two days before Christmas in a blizzard, and the entirety of the story covers just five hours. And that is my cat meowing. So I'm gonna squirt him in the face. Job done. Uh, I also have a seminar coming up that I'll be teaching on the visible writer, how to be visible as a writer, how to attach your humanity and your presence and your energy behind your words, how to let people get to know who you are. These are all things that are now essential if you're an author. You you really can't just hide behind your books anymore. People want to know who you are. How can you do that in a way that feels organic and natural and not gross to you? Um, so I will be teaching an online class about that. You can go to my website, unboundwriter.com, and and sign up for that. So it'll just be a couple hour class. Um, I'm also going to be teaching that class at Thrillerfest for CraftFest, if you happen to be there. All right, let's move on. Let's get on to today's guest. So today, as I mentioned, I have a repeat guest, my friend Emily Carpenter. So Emily is a fantastic writer, and I got a sneak peek at her new book, which just came out, A Spell for Saints and Sinners. Um, we we spent a long time talking about how to classify books. Um so we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna label hers as Gothic Suspense, Southern Gothic Suspense. Um, it includes some fantastic um witchcraft in there. Uh, the main character is a psychic, so there's a lot of good stuff in this book. Um, like I said, I did get a chance to read it and blurb it, and she's a fantastic writer. Um, and we talked, you know, a lot about the author's journey and getting broken up with by publishers and you know, finding your voice and you know, recognizing writers who aren't so much writing anymore. Um, so it was a fairly deep conversation. Um, and you know, she I don't know what it is about it, Emily. You know, to be honest, I don't know her that well. I she's been on the show before. We've met a couple times at conferences, but um, she's just a kind, generous soul. And I connect with her whenever I'm talking to her. I just feel that connection, and it's nice to chat with her because um it just feels like we have very engaging and um you know illuminating conversations. Like we don't we're very open uh with our feelings towards our work, towards the industry, um, the highs and the lows. Um, and she's just somebody who's very easy to talk to. Um, so it was good to catch up with her and see that she is doing as well as she is. Uh so check out her book, A Spell for Saints and Sinners, and you are going to enjoy this episode. This is my conversation with Emily Carpenter. So I was I was looking up when we did this last, and it was only 10 months ago. So that was kind of exciting. And I've seen you in the interim. Where did we see each other?

SPEAKER_03 4:15

Was that a Columbus uh book festival or was yes, it was Columbus Book Festival. I was a last-minute replacement on a panel with you, and yeah, it's like put me in, coach.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Isn't it weird how how many books do you have out now? Seven, seven. So as you write more and more books, just how much of the community you just start to either know or at least recognize, and you go to these events, and you're like, I know at least half the people here, at least by name, or I met them once, and it's just right, it it it suddenly becomes a smaller world. Columbus was maybe a little bit different because that was all types of books, yes. Um, but within kind of the suspense community, isn't it weird that you just know a bunch of people?

SPEAKER_03 5:06

It is, and it's like the funny thing is like I at this point, I feel like the elder statesman because I've been in it long enough to see people like come and go. And that always makes me sad, like when I have uh author friends who are either taking an extended break or no longer writing, um, which sometimes I think is um kind of built into this publishing model. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

So what do you think that's about? Like, because I I agree, you see people who were kind of really in it, and even maybe for multiple books, and then you just like I haven't heard from that person in a while. Do you think it just kind of breaks people?

SPEAKER_03 5:55

Let's just let's just go ahead and crack this open. We can have a therapy session. Therapy session. I mean, I think that's part of it. Yeah, I think like just to uh narrow the focus a little bit, I think for women um specifically, it it comes from some maybe family obligations with kids start to, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Like like any job.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that's unfortunate. I also think it has to do with like the changes in the um genre that happen and and but I don't know, I think everybody's story is different, and um and yeah, it just it's sometimes it makes me sad.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yeah, for sure. I I think you're absolutely right, it has a lot to do with um everyone's story being different, and I think there is something about because I think all authors go into this with very little understanding of what the industry is. I know, certainly speaking for myself, and so you have certain expectations that are probably ill-founded. Um, and then those expectations I think are rarely met, at least initially, because you know it's a brutal industry. And for those of us who are fortunate enough to a get an agent and b actually get sold, that's no guarantee of any kind of riches or or or riches at all. I mean, less than minimum wage.

SPEAKER_03 7:33

Yeah, or even any kind of stability and security, right? I think that's what in uh my sort of um naivety was is that oh, I'll reach a certain point where I don't have to worry about the next book. And that is not that does not exist for not for mid-list writers, and I don't even know, maybe not for the writers that hit it big.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Uh yeah, absolutely. You're totally right. And there are, and I think underlying all of it, and this has taken me years to realize, and fortunately, it's what I had been doing, it's maybe subconsciously, has to be this love of of the accomplishment love of writing. Because if you're doing it because, hey, the market's now hot, so I'm gonna write this kind of book and the market changes, or you're just frustrated because you know you're not making any real money doing it. Right. With a normal job, a corporate job, you would be you started looking for something else, right? Because your heart's not in it and it's not ticking the other boxes. So for me, I just write and just hope for the best, you know, while listening to input and certainly trying to get better and all that stuff. But if you try to game the system, it's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

Yeah, exactly. I will just say for me, I'm always kind of anticipating, like um, yeah. Sorry, sorry, sorry. One second.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

You're good. A quick break while Emily goes and tends to somebody calling her.

SPEAKER_03 9:12

I'm so sorry. Um uh yeah, I think um for me, I'm always kind of this nervous little bunny that's always sort of like to my agent. Like, is it time for me to pivot? Do I need to write, you know, YA dystopian? And she's just like just calm down.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Right.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

And, you know, just accept that um we'll know when we know.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Right. And and you and I have both gone through more than one publisher. Um for me it was you know, a couple uh, you know, one publisher went out of business, the second publisher then didn't want my next book, and then the third publisher I I turned down and moved to who I am with now. And I've been with Poison Pen Press for now eight books, I guess. Um, but it's it's scary because you like your comment earlier about stability. You like your editor, you like your publishing house, you get into a realm of expectation where you can kind of start even to budget things, um, but that could be ripped out from under you at any point. And you you were with was it Lake Union or was it Thomas and Mercer? Lake Union, Lake Union, and now you're with Kensington, I believe, is that yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that's you know, how what was that shift like?

SPEAKER_03 10:38

It was hard. I mean, Lake Union, Lake Union always felt like a bit of an odd fit.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Um, like I should have been with Thomas and Mercer, but I think Yeah, so Lake Union, just for the listeners, maybe a little bit lean, a little bit more literary uh um imprint of of Amazon publishing. Thomas and Mercer clearly in that suspense um lane.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

Yeah, the lake the Lake Union book is is typically like book club fic fiction, women's fiction with like light suspense. And I think those of us who wrote like true suspense always felt a little bit on the fringes. Right. Um, and I mean they were like my last book with them was um during the pandemic, October 2020. It was bleak, yeah, and um I I'm still super proud of the book, still have people coming up to me saying how much they love the book, but you know, um when I pitched another book to them, they were like, Don't think we can do it. Goodbye. And um, look, it's just that's just the way it is. Yeah, and um, but then I went like four and a half years before I published anywhere else, and that was not uh for lack of me trying.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Um but I got I ended up getting a new agent during that time. I wrote a book that didn't work, so then I noticed another book. I mean, it was I just thought at that point, look, you know, I've had a good run. If this does, if this business doesn't want me back, okay. Yeah, um, but I'm gonna keep trying.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

So and I feel like with you, and you know, I see your beautiful book cover of A Spell in Saints and Sinners, which was a fantastic book on on your wall back there. And and I got an early look at it. Um I'm just guessing because I haven't actually read your Lake Union stuff, but yeah, you know, it's funny just even looking at the covers, the Lake Union stuff is so squarely in that zeitgeist of thriller covers. And then I feel like your covers with Kensington and certainly your work is it feels very you, very you know, you love the southern gothic kind of mysticism-leaning horror. Um and and I think it just it just feels more organically you is is would you say that, or am I just guessing?

SPEAKER_03 13:03

No, I think you're right. And I think it's taken me well, I don't know if you found this um in your writing, but it has taken me a while to kind of figure out who I am and what I write and where I fit. And that's not to say that you know, we don't have multitudes within us, we can't do other things, but just in terms of where we fit in the market, I think it's just been um in these past couple years that I've really been able to lean into that southern gothic and with a touch of horror. And I think Kensington uh them being so open to that and frankly just encouraging me to lean more into that has been really fun.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Yeah, yeah, and it's and it's scary because you write in a space that I think makes you stand out because I think it's just, I mean, the writing's great, but it's just a different more in my opinion. Like it's not a cookie cutter thriller at all. But on the other hand, that can be kind of scary too, because that you know, how often do we hear, like, you know, we love it, but we just don't know how we would market it? Um, you know, you've got um you've got people who like psychics and and and and uh uh how did you research that, by the way? Um, your main character, like where what kind of path did you go down for that?

SPEAKER_03 14:25

Well, I had to do a ton of research for her because she is a psychic, but she also is a witch. She practices a form of witchcraft that I kind of could concocted on my own. But um, the place I started was because I am not um a witch. Or so um, yeah, or a psychic. I do feel like I have some psychic abilities.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

So you were able to kind of tap into that to that's great.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

Yeah, I think I have like super strong intuition. Um so yeah, and there have been some times some brushes with stuff like that and kind of the other side. But yeah, I just kind of I remember telling my editor, you know, this is um I'm not doing practical magic. I love it, but like I'm this is like real. This is somebody who really practices witchcraft. So I started with a memoir um by Diana Helmouth called The Witching Year. And it's a great book, very charming. Um, and it is about a woman that takes a whole year to kind of learn the world of witchcraft and to kind of explore all the different types and to try to like really take it seriously for a year and see what she thinks. And um, so that really worked for me because I could walk with her through the discovery process. And then I was studying like all these like really like witchcraft reference books, and um, I realized pretty quickly that it was um a complex practice, and that there were lots of different types of practices, and there were a lot of different opinions from a lot of different people, and that it's kind of it's a little bit the wild west. Um and which on one hand gave me a lot of freedom to kind of make up my character, um her particular brand of witchcraft, which is kind of a light-based sympathy magic type um practice. And then um on the psychic side, I really kind of stuck with like palm reading, or reading, um, because tarot cards are super like they're uh also a vast field of expertise. Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

And that's very accessible to the reader too, because readers are gonna know tarot readings and yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

But I I stayed away from the tarot because I just felt like I was not I I was not educated enough with that. So I stuck more to she does like palm readings or readings, but then the book really delves into the spells and the rituals she ends up doing once she's like pulled into this wealthy family's orbit, she's you know, they enlist her to do these spells for them.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

That's cool. I mean, and I'm sure your whatever preconceived notions you had about witchcraft were just completely obliterated through.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Oh, yeah. I mean, uh, you know, at one point, so I've also in my own uh religious and spiritual journey, I have been to a lot of different churches and I have explored all different kinds of religion and definitely uh like Western Christianity, I've been to like I've been to all the churches. Um, and what I realized while I was researching the witchcraft, I was like, this is I'm seeing a Venn diagram here. Yeah, you're seeing a little bit of your own journey, a little overlap of my own journey, but also the how some of the particular Christian branches and denominations can get very um complex and have like certain steps to follow and almost feel very ritualized. And it's real interesting to see the overlap of like, oh, well, you're not praying this prayer right. That's why God didn't answer you. And it's very similar to like you didn't do the spell right, or your, you know, your will wasn't in the energy wasn't in the right place.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Well, that's like manifestation too, like you know, the the idea of you know, you can have these incantations, but unless unless you have the energy to match it in terms of true belief, then it it's there's right.

SPEAKER_03 19:03

So there's always like it's so complex, and there's always a way to fail.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yeah, yeah. Where where do you think um your own kind of religious quest and curiosity very you know, obviously the in in the US, I think the the the stereotype is or or the most common thing is you are kind of what you grew up with. This is all you ever known. And it's it's curious for me because my son, you know, I'm not uh a very religious person, and my son kind of found it on his own, which I think is beautiful because it's like you're old enough to be curious and to just you know want to explore things on your own. It wasn't force fed to you. Sounds like you had your own kind of exploration where you, you know, maybe rooted in Christianity, but obviously there's a million different churches you can try.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

Yeah, I'm very much I'm very much a Virgo in this way. Like I want to do it right and I want to find the right religion.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Right, right. Gotta find the right God.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

Like at the end of the world, I want to be like, I'm in the right religion.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:16

I chose right. But I mean, so my Virgo-ness does not sit well with we will never know why, we can never answer all the questions, there is no right way. So, like my whole I but plus I'm just very curious. Like I was raised very um strict Presbyterian PCA, which is a branch of the Presbyterian church that is extremely like Calvinistic and sort of predestination and that kind of thing. And um, I mean, I had questions from day one, and um, but I followed it. I'm also a follower and a people pleaser, so you know, I just I don't know, it's been really interesting. I just I kind of what I loved about the practice of witchcraft is that it really is. I kind of went into it thinking maybe this is just about like getting what I want out of life. And I think that is some of it, but so is so are other religions. We all want, you know, a good life and a fulfilled life. What I found in witchcraft is that there is a real sort of openness and consciousness of aligning yourself with the universe, like with what is going on and where the universe is moving and and a higher purpose. And I call it um, it's called like the one cosmic will. And I found that really beautiful and really like a unifying um force and. So I I am not that far off from Christianity. Like the one cosmic will for God's will. And if it's a loving God, you know, it's all good.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Right. You can distill a lot of these different belief systems to the common to a few simple common denominators. A need for understanding what's next and you know, love. And if you it all boils down to just a few things, and then they just branch out into the and comfort, right?

SPEAKER_03 22:31

Comfort in this terrifying world we live in. Yeah. It's all very similar. So I didn't so I was raised very much like, oh, stay away from the you know, witchcraft and the occult and all that. And um, but what I found was that yes, this Wiccan practice is is like seeking the same things.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Right. It's very my understanding is it's very nature adjacent. Um you think of like a lot of like, you know, and like indigenous belief systems that are all really rooted in nature and the earth and animals, and you know, it all just kind of it's funny how it just all kind of boils down to basic stuff and and then religions just make it overly complicated, I think.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

Even well, even Wiccan makes it overly complicated, I think. At one point I was reading this and I was like, this is more complicated than the most, you know, the strictest form of Christianity I was in. So you know, but that was only like one book, one right, one guy saying like you need to do all these things before you do a ritual. And I was like, I I don't have the you know wavelength for this, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

And so you clearly went down this path in in this research, and I think one of the scary things, and and uh yeah, I don't do a lot of research, so I'm kind of talking out of my ass, but what I've evidenced is like, you know, I know a lot of people who just they write only so they're allowed to research, they just love the research. And and what can become problematic is that you use too much of that or you get so excited yourself, you you start to distance yourself from the audience. Um do you ever get and and I'm just thinking, particularly when we when we talk about things like witchcraft in a thriller, in a you know, I would say more of a literary thriller. Um, you know, my own agent would be like, no woo-woo stuff. That's how she would put it, right? Right. And you're like, no, but you have to understand this is um, do you have that kind of back and forth with Kensington at all about like let's make this more grounded or just do whatever you want to do?

SPEAKER_03 24:43

Um I they really gave me a lot of freedom. And I think within that, when you do say horror, you do that part of an element of that is supernatural.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

Um, and I will say in my book specifically, there's there are there's frequently a supernatural element that could be, and that's very gothic too, that concept of uh is it a ghost or is it the guy, you know? I mean it's Scooby-Doo, you know, old Mr. McGillicuddy who doesn't want you to, you know, tear down the mat, whatever. So there is always that element in gothic fiction and in my books of is it real, is it not real? What's happening? Is it, you know, an unreliable narrator, having psychosis, or is it truly something supernatural? So they gave me a lot of freedom with that. And like I said, I did this, I mean, part of the plot of this book is this young woman who truly believes in her form of witchcraft is doing spells that re have results, but who is accomplishing? Did the results come because of her spells, or is somebody helping along the spells?

SPEAKER_00 26:06

I see, I see.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

Yeah, and so that is part of the narrative.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Is this we is this book kind of being marketed as horror?

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Um I can't quite figure out.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Sometimes horror is so fluid.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

Like, I don't know horror is so fluid, and I will say, like, a hardcore horror reader is gonna be truly horrified, like unimpressed. Like, I think like somebody who's like true hardcore horror is gonna be like, no, no, no, no, this is not. I would say this is horror adjacent, yeah. It's a mashup, you know, they're doing mashups these days, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

I would agree with that, and it's it's also it's funny because I'm I'm at a book festival on Saturday kind of locally, and I'm on a horror panel. And I'm like, okay, like um, and I know the other two writers, and I wouldn't classify their work as horror either. Um, and I feel like the word horror in in genre fiction carries a much heavier weight than the word thriller, for example, and maybe I'm just biased on that. No, no, you're right, but I couldn't define it because when we look at thrillers, you know, you have everything from what I would write, which would be more of a domestic slash psychological thriller, to you know, corporate finance thriller, spy thriller, you know, a million different types. So maybe horror, I guess horror is the same way. But I would not define it.

SPEAKER_03 27:37

Yeah, I would say thriller is like that because I don't call my books thriller thrillers, yeah, because they start slow. I call them suspense.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Yeah, I I agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 27:50

I mean, I yours is definitely gothic suspense, yeah, yeah, with a slow burn, and it's more like that rising dread rather than you know, you're dropping in with a dead body and you're off and running, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Right. Yeah, I've heard horror described as being kind of like there's more of a sense of hopelessness. Um, which I thought it was kind of a good way of describing it because it's just like because you think of like how many thrillers are serial killer thrillers, which is obviously horrifying. But if there's hope at the end, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It's it's and it all says how how is the publisher going to uh market this to the bookstores kind of a thing, so it's yeah, it usually goes beyond our input. Um, because I've I've read some dark, dark thrillers where you're just like there's parts of this I can't get through because it's really graphic brutal violence, and but it's not horror, you know.

SPEAKER_03 28:49

Yeah, yeah, it is strange, and I don't know that the publishers have it figured out either.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Yeah, they kind of see, oh, this one really, and then like you know, tell me what you did. My last book kind of took off. It was my breakout, and now it's funny how now I'm starting to see from different sides of my publisher. Okay, how do we package you now in this realm? Because this one really worked, you know, you know, including like, well, we like titles that kind of have this kind of beat to them and these kinds of words. And and I don't argue with any of it, you know, because it's like this is their job. This is they, you know, when they find something that works, and of course, if something works, that doesn't mean it's gonna work in in perpetuity. Um you're hoping that it can work for at least one more book.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Yeah, but it is that impulse is give us more of the same, but totally different, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

Which is just really hard to accomplish.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

It is, especially when you're writing standalones. Um, you know, I've never I've never written a series before. And you know, when you have and it's funny, you you talk to people who write highly successful series, and and one side of you says, How can how can all this crazy stuff keep happening to the same person? The other side, you're like, that's kind of really nice to have like I know who my person is, I know their universe, and I and you know, I could just have a think of another story with it, and and that's what readers want because you have that baked-in audience, yeah, and there's a sense of there's got to be a sense of comfort with it. Um I've never had a character where I'm like, I have to have this continue.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

Yeah, I I don't know what that's like either. And I have the same like looking on the other side of that fence and seeing that expanse of green grass and saying, Oh, that would be so nice to to have a like established, but again, it's that thing of safety that I keep longing for that just I don't I I think we're we're post we're in a post-safety era in the publishing industry, and you know, so we just come keep coming up with new stuff.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

It's the what I'm uh what I have to turn in in August I I for pub pub publication next year. I finished it, so I'm kind of reviewing it now before you my agent. And I'm writing this thing, and you know, I'm not outlined, so I don't know where it's going. But around 80%, and I kind of see the ending, and the way that it ends, I'm like, there's a whole other book about what happens next. Oh, and I can't like if I wanted to, but I can't I can't try to cram that into an ending because it's just too much. But I don't want to leave the ending so open that it necessitates the next because my agent, my editor might be like, we don't want right, and yeah, so I'm like, so now I'm like just left, like I don't have no idea if the this ending is satisfying at all or not, because I just feel like it's such an open door to a next book. Um, that I don't even know if I want to write a next book, even if they say, but I just didn't know how to end it otherwise. So I'm like, yeah, I don't know. I guess we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

I kind of do both. I like to wrap the story up, but then also leave one little door open of possibility that there's uh a just in case.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's I I love that. I love a a bit of a vague ending, and yeah, I would say the preponderance of my readers don't like that. They they they want to know like what happened. You know, I had one book and spoiler alert where you know the main character is on a plane that feels like it's about to crash, and you just don't know. Um, and I I love that because in my mind I love it too. I must and and she found she's found peace in this moment of horror. She's found peace and she's found hope, and that's her arc to me. That's that's it's to me, it's sublime. But to the reader's like, god damn it.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

Does the plank the plane, Carter? See, but I would have loved that. But like I love strange, open-ended stuff. I think it's yeah, that's always the battle, isn't it? To like, you know, I mean, the truth is not to be too high-minded. I think we're artists, and you know, we're um I like to think of myself that way. And um, I like to think uh that I'm writing a book that is art and I'm creating art. And so I but I also want to create art that people can connect to. Right. And I I do have like weird tastes, like sometimes the TV shows that I love, nobody else loves them. Or the you know, the books everyone loves, I don't they don't connect with me. And so I realize that I'm kind of a little weirdo out here on the so I have to keep that in mind. Like if the goal is, you know, I'd love a lot of people to read my book and love my book, and yeah, yeah. So I have to make some compromises, yeah, but they don't feel like I I don't feel like I'm compromising my no, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

I mean, I I think that's the perpetual struggle between your own instincts and your own voice and what is going to resonate with the general readership. Yes, and that's that's a constant learning experience. And I think you're right. Like when you say, you know, I make compromises, but they don't feel like that big of a deal, that's because they're adjacent to your your own instincts. Like my editor will tell me stuff that is a lot of work, but it all resonates with me. It either I either I can identify how this is going to make the book more commercially viable, or it's just a great idea that I wish I would have thought of myself. Yeah, yeah. Um, but it's you know, I and I think the people that either try to write too much to the market or are unwilling to listen to those trusted voices, you know, that's where you stop growing. And those are those people who were like, what happened to that person?

SPEAKER_03 35:31

Yeah, because things and then I think some people just have kind of an innate sense of what the the mass public wants to read. Yeah, and I would love to get inside those people's heads because like I always miss it.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Yeah, well, it's yeah, and totally, and I don't really read fiction, so I don't have that, you know. I read most of the I mostly read unless I'm blurbing, I'm I'm almost always reading nonfiction, but I watch a lot of TV shows, I watch a lot of limited series, and I love to kind of deconstruct. Like, do you see and it what's what's so difficult is you know, a TV show or film can get away with so much visually that it would take pages, you know, a single camera shot. Oh, yes, be so revelatory, and and if it's done well, but I love to kind of just deconstruct scenes. I'm like, why do I love this person in this scene? What are they? Is it the actor or is it the dialogue or is it the way it's shot? Um, you know, and how do I translate that into my own writing? And you just hope subconsciously you just kind of learn from those things, but I'm fascinated with that. Are you are you but you are a big fiction reader?

SPEAKER_03 36:52

I um don't read as much as I would like, right? Um, and I'm going through kind of a weird dry spell right now. I'm just um it's not happening, but I will say I do like when I feel like I've just read so much fiction, and of course I'm watching TV and movies, which I love as much as I love books, but nonfiction is a great palette cleanser, and I really, really enjoy like a good narrative nonfiction, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

But yeah, no, totally, and even with that's funny, even with shows, uh so I'm watching the show Task right now, which is great, you know. But when I read about it on the surface, it feels very I've seen this a thousand times, a task force, you know, uh you know, trying to investigate drugs and stuff like that. And then I'm watching it, I'm like, it's so well done, yes, but you have to go through it to have to know that. And that's like a book, too. Like you read the back cover and you want it to be different enough to be compelling, um, but you really wanted the voice to sing. And there's such a voice in this show task that has surprised me and is elevated above what I still consider to be a fairly generic plot. Yeah, worthy, worthy, worthy watching because it's it's it's it's highly emotional, and then they'll have a certain scene that another show, similar show wouldn't have where it just more character development kind of a thing. But it's it's hard to find those things. You always feel like you have to be different, and I think that's where you stand out, is like, you know, even just again the cover, it's like this is a different type of book. This is the I don't know, I'm a little obsessed with your covers because I'm just like oh thank you. It's so like telling about like I know exactly, you know, I know the mood of this book. And sometimes that's the only chance you have to capture somebody is they're scrolling and they're like, I get it.

SPEAKER_03 38:50

Oh, I mean, covers are everything, and and it's it's like I and I'm the first to say that like my ideas are not always the ideas they take or the best idea, but I agree with you. I've I've been really happy with um the covers they've given me, and yeah, I think it does definitely telegraph like this is what you're getting, this southern gothic suspense, like you're gonna have a fun ride.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Yeah. So do you have I'm I'm I'm guessing you do. I know this book just came out, um, but I assume you've got another one on the pipeline with with Kensington.

SPEAKER_03 39:31

Yes, I've got one coming out next year with them, which is I'm really excited about it. Yes, I I wrote that one very quickly for several reasons. Um, when I came up with the idea, I was like, I couldn't sleep. I was so excited about it. Um, it's actually a retelling of Daphne DeMarier's Rebecca. Oh, wow. Yeah, which was another reason it was a little bit faster process writing it. Cause thank you, Daphne. She laid out an incredible plot um that I mostly followed. Um, but it's set in the in the um Americana roots music scene of Northwest Alabama, muscle shoals, all that kind of like old um where they uh fame studios where they you know recorded Aretha Franklin and the Rolling Stones. That whole place up there by the Tennessee River is just like speaking of supernatural, there's some kind of supernatural portal for like musical genius up there. So yeah, it's a contemporary story. Um, it's about a young woman who seeks out a uh iconoclastic music producer to um help her produce her debut album.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

That's great. And so that's next year, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:02

That's next year. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

So you got them all lined up after after that four-year dry spell. You got them all lined up.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

I mean, I'm writing just as fast as my little fingers will go.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Oh, I know the feeling.

SPEAKER_03 41:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Well, Emily, we're gonna wrap up before we do. You know what comes next. This is the storytelling part of the show. And I think last time I was looking back at the show notes, we did um a sentence from Gone Girl. But um, I've got three books here, and you're gonna choose one of them. We're gonna choose a sentence, and that's gonna be the first sentence in like a two-minute long short story. We'll just alternate sentences until it gets horrible, and then I'll call it. Um, but your books to choose from. I have RG uh Belski, uh Belski's Broadcast Blues, okay, uh BJ Mignani's Will Always Have Poison and Tasha Alexander's Death by Misadventure. I think these were all books sent to me as part of a contest. I was judging.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

I love it. I love it. Listen, I like the poison one caught my eye.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Well always have poison.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Um, so give me, and my cat just walked in, so he might start howling. We'll see that.

SPEAKER_03 42:11

Welcome, kitty.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Uh, give me a page between one and two seventy.

SPEAKER_03 42:17

Um 103.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

103. All right, I'm gonna quickly scan page 103, um, and then you can do whatever you want with a sentence that I will find. Um this is a lot of weird dialogue on this page. Um I'm gonna give we're gonna make this tough. We're gonna make this a bit of a challenge. Oh no. This is just a piece of dialogue. You don't need to know who who's in the scene. It's just one person saying this. Can you please tell us about the food sources for humpback whales and orcas? Make a good, get the pressures on.

SPEAKER_03 43:10

Okay, but can you repeat it? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Can you please tell us about the food sources for humpback whales and orcas?

SPEAKER_03 43:18

He asked the boat captain as they maneuvered out of the swamp.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

I looked over at my father, who would only ask questions all the time, irritated. But then I shifted my glance to the captain himself, who strangely didn't even answer the question, and I didn't know if he could hear my father or if he was deep in thought on something else.

SPEAKER_03 43:56

My father stood rocking the boat slightly. Menacingly pointing his finger at the captain and said, I know what you're up to.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

I had no idea what my father was talking about. I thought maybe he thought we were getting scammed, and my face became flush with anxiety. But still the captain didn't even turn. He tended to his boat as we drew out of the swamp and into the tributary which would carry us into the ocean.

SPEAKER_03 44:43

My father turned to me and said with a smile, Are you ready, son?

SPEAKER_00 44:53

I didn't even have time to answer before my father reached over and cinched my life preserver tighter around my body. And then he grabbed his own and put it over his head and secured it as well. He grabbed my hand and gave me a squeeze. We can call it there.

SPEAKER_03 45:16

Oh my gosh. I don't know where that's going. I feel like the boat is gonna be flipping at some point.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Something's gonna happen. Yes. Yeah. I mean, come on. We turned a pretty academic sentence into something mildly suspenseful.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

Yeah, and just some narrative action. We are indeed commercial writers.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

We are. Emily, great to see your face. Am I going to see you at Thriller Fest in New York?

SPEAKER_03 45:42

I hope so.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

Okay. I will be there as well. Congratulations on the release and uh always great talking to you.

SPEAKER_03 45:50

Thank you, Sam. Thanks for having me on, Carter.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Talk again soon. Bye, Emily.

SPEAKER_03 45:54

All right. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

So that is it. That is my uh conversation with Emily Carpenter. And we did a good little storytelling there, starting with a very bizarre sentence. I I normally wouldn't choose a bizarre sentence, but it kind of worked for me. Um, and it worked for the story. So I don't know. Would I read that story? Maybe I'd give it a couple pages. Um, as a reminder, her new book is out, a spell for saints and sinners. You can read about her book and everything about Emily at her um website, which is Emily Carpenterauthor.com. Uh and you can pop on over to carterwilson.com to check out my books, um, my new design website, uh, my new book coming out when they find me. And if you're interested in any kind of writing, coaching, or any of my courses that I teach um on uh live seminars or even upcoming retreats, you can find all of that at unboundwriter.com. That is it. That is it for this episode of Making It Up. Uh, thanks for consuming this, either watching it on YouTube or downloading the podcast. I appreciate it. Um, another one will be out just next week, as always. And thank you and take care.