Making It Up with Rachael Ramas, author of Objects in Lakes

"The mom guilt—you hit the nail on the head. I’m like, 'Sorry guys, mommy’s writing a murder chapter right now, somebody’s getting murdered.' But at the end of the day, writing is a passion... and it makes me a better mom." — Rachael Ramas 

Rachael Ramas is a multi-faceted storytelling force whose creative pursuits span novels, screenwriting, and film production. As both a published author and active member of prestigious writing organizations, Ramas continues pushing boundaries in thriller literature while advocating for authentic representation. Her debut thriller, Objects in Lakes, was released in May 2026, and her second novel, Meanwhile, in Florida, is set to be released in April 2027.

Among other things, Rachael and Carter discuss writing from different points of view, how Rachael is preparing for her first book tour, and the challenge of boasting about yourself and your book as a modest person. At the end of their conversation, they make up an intense story using a line from Matthew Sullivan’s Midnight in Soap Lake. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Writers, friends, hello. This is Carter, and welcome to this episode of Making It Up, my little podcast. My little podcast that is going on, I don't even know, five, six years, something like that. Um, started out as a hobby, started out as a reason just to get to connect with other writers, and man, I stuck with it. Who saw that coming? Uh, we're we're around 250 episodes or so now, somewhere around there. Um, and I'm talking to somebody once a week and getting into their brain, which is exactly what I love. I love talking to writers. Um, before I get to today's guest, you know, speaking of writing and speaking of talking to writers, if you did not know, I do have a company called Unbound Writer where we do writing retreats and I do one-on-one coaching. Um, and we also do um seminars and events and stuff like that. Um, but if you're interested in any of that stuff, um, especially the one-on-one coaching, I love working with writers on their manuscript or on their psychology or whatever you want to talk about, and you can do a free consultation call. You could just go to unboundwriter.com, sign up for a free call, and we'll just chat and see if there's a way that I can kind of help you through what you need help through with, if that makes sense. Uh, all right, let's get to today's guest. Today I talked to uh Rachel Rama. So Rachel is a debut author and her brand new mystery thriller, Objects and Lakes, is coming out um just next week as I'm actually recording this now, but it'll it's officially out on June 2nd, 2026. Um, I love talking to date debut authors. Um, you know, you some of you might know I do a lot of work with debut authors with international thriller writers and at the thrillerfest annual conference. And I just remember as a debut myself, you know, how generous people were with me. Um and so I'd love to give back. And I'm just you know, it's fun to see somebody at the beginning of this really cool journey, which has tremendous ups and downs, and not everybody sticks through it. Um, but it's it's just great. Um, so she's getting ready, Rachel's getting ready to go on her tour next week, and all the fun things associated with that. You never know how a book's going to sell, but um, she's written a lot. Um, I think she's got another one on a contract and three more that she's either written or in the process of writing. So she's very prolific and and finding her voice and and getting better. And she's even, you know, she she's great at recognizing that in herself, you know, through the imposter syndrome, which we talked about quite a bit, to say, I think this book's really good, you know, and it's hard to tell, but like that confidence is so important. Um, as long as it's kind of in her case, it it totally is, as long as it's wedded to you know objectivity as much as as you can kind of define that for oneself. Um, so you know, you could she's you could tell she's very passionate about writing in general. And this sounds like a trite thing to say, but that is the thing that keeps you going. Um, through however long your career is going to be, through however much money you're gonna make doing this, if you don't have the passion for it, you are going to quit. That and that's probably true with most things. Um, and that passion will ebb and flow over time, and you will question it and you will question yourself. Um, but if you take a few days off and you find yourself itching to write, to even just conceptualize a scene, then that probably means that the passion is still there. Um, it was great. We did a nice little storytelling at the end. She was a fantastic person to talk to. This is a great one, folks. You're gonna like this. This is my conversation with Rachel Lamas. So next week is the launch of your debut novel.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yes. Have you ever had a debut author on here before?

SPEAKER_01 4:15

I've had plenty. Yeah, I love debut authors. I actually I noticed that you're with ITW and MWA. Um, Elena Hartwell and I co-chair the with Bob D'Agoni, the the debut author committee for Thriller Fest. So there's old so next year you would be eligible if you go to Thriller Fest for the debut author whole thing, which is about 30 people usually per class. Most of them go to Thrillerfest, they get their own breakfast where they get a stand in front of like three, four hundred people and say one minute about who they are and their book. We do a big thing Friday night for them. Um, it's really cool. Um, so I love working with debuts. I've had debuts on on the show before. I'm not sure I've ever had a debut on the week before it's not even out.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yeah. So this is an exclusive.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

I'm not jaded yet. I'm not jaded yet. So, but it's been an interesting ride, my god.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

You won't hopefully you won't ever become jaded. I think there are times where you keep wanting maybe a different experience, and I can only speak from my own experience. And then, you know, book after book after book, it kind of feels the same, but then all of a sudden something big happens, or even something maybe not so great happens and it's different. Um, but I've never felt jaded, you know. I'm sure you're feeling grateful. Yeah, like because the odds are crazy, right? Like, I don't know if you ever investigated the odds.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

People don't understand to it's a one percent chance. If you Google what is the chance of first of all getting a literary agent or just being traditionally published, it's one percent. But I was so naive, I was like dumb and dumber. You're telling me I got a chance, all right.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Um that's right, yeah, because what else are you going to do? Just not write. I mean, which is you know, if I guess it depends on what your goal is. You know, I've met plenty of people who want to be authors, and I've met plenty of people who I think like the idea of being an author. And if you're the latter, I feel like you will be easily discouraged. Like you get those first 50 rejections, and you're just like, I'm out.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

It's so subjective because you'll have I love the tone, but I didn't like this, and then another email. Love like I didn't like the tone, but I did, and it's so you're it's just so confusing.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

It is that's just right. It has to hit the right person at the right time, and you have to be willing to listen to what people are saying and to pivot and to improve. You know, my first several books that didn't sell were my education, right? So that's where I would learned how to write, and every book after that has become something to build on, and the market changes, and yeah, it's it's it's really hard.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Have you always done thrillers? Is that was that your first book? Was it like let's just go straight to that, John?

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yeah, I mean, I wrote a book and I didn't know what it was because I didn't know anything about books. Um, it was a weird kind of experience, and I did get an agent with that book after many, many, many rejections. And she was the one who told me I had written a thriller, and I didn't really know what that meant. Um, you know, I knew it was suspense, you know. Um, but yeah, and and you know, going back to your 1%, when you're talking about genre fiction, man, it's probably even lower than that to be traditionally published. It's really hard to break into mystery thriller suspense because there's just so much content out there.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

I agree. You gotta be delusional. I'm and I'm very delusional.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Yeah, I mean, I think you do it because of the love of it. Um, and there's so was this the first thing you've ever written in terms of a novel?

SPEAKER_00 8:03

For a novel, yeah. Um, articles, screenplays. I loved I wrote for the state news at Michigan State, which I know that's when I first DM'd you, I saw your daughter went to Michigan State.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Yep, she's the ex-barton. Or is it?

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Yeah, she went to Ohio State. What what? But I mean great law school.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Well, when when they offer you a full ride at law school, you kind of go wherever you go.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Wow, so she's smart, my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

She's all right, you know. I I say that because she actually produces these, so she'll listen to this interview. And and if I can shit talk her, I get extra points.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

I love that. I have my daughter do all my reels and all that because she knows how to edit. So I love how we both employ our daughters.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Uh, but that's you know, it's pretty impressive that you know, I yes, you have screenplay writing background, you storytelling background, which is hugely essential, but to have your first novel sell is you know, the percentages of that are low.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Yeah. So I wrote it in end of 2022, is my new year's resolution. Um, dealing with a lot, as most I think most debut authors would say their first book is the most personal. Um so I was like, I just gotta get this out like in a therapeutic way. Um I know you know a little bit about my I have like some d disabilities, chronic illness. So I was kind of just grieving. Okay, this is what my life is. Yeah, you know, I have two little kids at home. Um, my mom was diagnosed with cancer, had other family members dealing with addiction. So it's funny when I look back at each character in my novel, they all you see how that all lines up. At the time, you don't really realize it, you're just writing. Um, and my daughter was like, What's your New Year's resolution, mom? I'm like, I'm gonna write a book. I'm gonna do it. So I kind of just did it for me and for her.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

And we just to just to interstate, where did that come from? Do you think that I want to write a book?

SPEAKER_00 9:57

I've always written, like I said, all since I was little, little kid, always writing like little, but like to write a novel, I mean you can get to 50,000 words, at least for me, so easily. But once you hit that mark, it's it's kind of hard, I think.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

I just saw the whole thing is like a movie. I see most of my books like a movie first.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

So I kind of outline it like a screenplay, and then I just start writing it. And then the first draft is messy. Um, then I I just get it. I think if you can get the first draft down, that's where people stop. Everybody has a story, but to write it, they'll give up halfway through.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yeah. Well, it's interesting how you mentioned the first book being your most emotional. Um, you know, I think I think those of us, you know, so I had zero background, uh, you know, when I was writing a story. And I think I think the the issue with that first book being a being you know autobiographical to some degree, is that the good side is is yes, it's absolutely therapeutic. You are you are you're feeling it, it's cathartic, you're working through stuff. That doesn't mean it's an interesting commercial book, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:08

They connect with people or yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

And this is something I see as a writing coach all the time. It's like it's so personal to people that one, it's it's they they they take feedback very personally, um, because you're kind of saying, you know, this isn't interesting, even though it's your life. Um, and secondly, they have a really hard time letting it go, like you know, because most of us, that first novel is just practice and you have to learn to let it go. And if you've if it's super personal to you and you can't let it go, then you just hit this wall. So you're able to have kind of the catharsis and make something that's appealing to readers. Did you find yourself so you got so you you got an agent with that book, obviously?

SPEAKER_00 11:54

No, so I have a really weird story for you, and I may be the first to tell you this. So, first they wrote it for me, then I had my beta readers. You know, you gotta have your people that you can go to. And they were like, This is good, but you they're your friends, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:07

You have to be careful who you select to become.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Yeah. So I went to my friends that like read tons, like I'm talking four books a month. So I'm pretty good with constructive criticism. Grief is a very universal feeling. I think an addiction, that's a big part of this book. Um, so I did start querying it and right away I got requests for the full, which people don't understand. That's hard to get, yeah, even if you never hear from them again. Um, just people that that they requested a big agent to. Um, and then I randomly submitted to Rising Action, which is they are distributed by Simon and Schuster. So Alex over there, uh right away she's like, I love it, send me the full. Um, two weeks later, she's like, I want to publish it. So I went right through a publisher and a distributor like Simon and Schuster. And Simon and Schuster is now gonna do the audiobook through Simon Maverick that combined in July. So I'm excited about it. But then um the my third book that I wrote, I'm like, this is this is really good. You know, the more you write, right? You just know, you know, like this is gonna pop up, this is like commercial. Um, so I I queried that and then got an agent right away with that. So we're on something.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

So your agents representing your third book and your first two are are handy.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Rising action, Simon Schuster, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Right. And then and then rising action is going to, I'm sure, have the the first look opportunity at that third book, um, would be my guess.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Um, well, they don't they have the first two, yeah. And then my agent now has the right. I've written three others.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

So oh wow.

unknown 13:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

So I have a lot of free time, as you can tell. My kids are like self-sufficient now, they're in school. So I help with my husband's law firm and then I write and I love it.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Yeah, so you're writing a lot of hours a day, it sounds like every morning.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

I I listen to my music, I get my ideas, and I I write.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

I write very limited, you know, an hour a day or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

But uh, you're in Colorado, right? I'm right. Okay, yeah. So the weather, um, I think being outside in Florida helps a lot. I get a lot of ideas. There's a lot of crazy people here, so oh yeah. Yeah, my brain can't shut off. I have to write it down.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

So well, that's yeah, and you know, it's it's hard to balance all those ideas with okay, I have this idea, and then you start to think, do I have a 90,000-word idea? What is because I don't outline, so like when I do have that idea, it's gotta be it'll be small, it'll be like a one-sentence idea, but it has to hit me in such a way that I kind of know, yeah, there could be a huge story in here, as opposed to because you know, when somebody says, Oh, you should write a book about that, and it's like a some small interesting thing, but it's like that's not a story. I mean, you know, it's gotta be broader, it's gotta, it's gotta grab you by the throat a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

And in my notes app, I just keep going. I'm like, if I have enough ideas, then I'm like, okay, I can I can combine these two ideas, and then that's for a yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Do you ever get an idea for something while you're writing something else?

SPEAKER_01 15:19

I always do. That's how usually what it happens, and and I'm unlike you, I don't have gobs of ideas. Um, but something will hit me, and then I never write anything down. And if like six months later I'm still thinking about it, then I'm like, all right, there's something here. So I just started something last week, um, because I've just turned in everything I've had to turn in for the next couple of years. And so I like I'm able to start a book, and I'm like, I just start writing, like, I think there's something here that I thought of maybe six months ago. So we'll see. And it's funny how you say, like, yeah, and this book is really good. And it's that's I know you kind of before we start recording, you mentioned imposter syndrome. That's the funny thing, is you do need that confidence, right? Um, because you're always in battle with that self-doubt, which is inherent to all of us, I think. Um, but yet you can still be wrong. Like, I've had books where I'm like, This, I I love this book. This is maybe the best thing I've ever written. And either my editor wasn't crazy about it or wasn't like received that well, or didn't sell that many copies, or whatever. It's so, you know, and then you're like get hit in the face again. You're like, Oh, just just when I thought I was getting good. And then you write something that you're like, Yeah, this is pretty good. I like it.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Okay, and then it takes off, and yeah, it seems like that's what I see is it's like the third or fourth book for authors that that's what pops off. And um, yeah, it's just random. You never know.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

It's yeah, it just it everyone's got a different story, but you can see the common thread through all of them. I mean, so for me, my third published book hit the USA Today list, but overall, like did okay, you know, and so I've always been middlest, middlest, middlest, kind of just chipping away. And then my tenth book, you know, was a breakout, like a huge breakout. And now I'm trying to follow that up. And it's like, can I do it again? Like, what was the formula? Like it's weird, like you don't know, and all you can really do is like pay attention and then then then put your head down and write the best that you can write and take good advice from this group of people that you've learned to trust over time, who are hopefully not your family and friends, but your editor and your agent and and some very smart um beta readers who live in that space.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Um, and I also think you can't really overthink because if you overthink it, then you're gonna get too much in your head about it. So at a certain point, it's right.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

If you deconstruct a breakout, whether it's yours or somebody else's, and try to recreate it, the whole market is shifting behind the scenes, and you don't know if that's going to be of interest to anyone anymore. So you it's this weird balance of like writing what you want to write, but still being aware of expectations, not only of the market, but of you, especially if you have several books out, you've started to people start to expect things from you. And you know, I just talked to somebody earlier this week who's like, I I've written 40 books and I want to do something totally different. And some readers absolutely hate it because it's darker than what they expect, and but you're also tapping into a new audience, and and I'm fighting maybe my boredom, you know, maybe I'm doing something different.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

So I do like to mix it up. I'll do my first book. I don't know why the hell I wrote it in third person because I'm like it it was way harder. Second book, I did first person. I'm like, this is so much easier. Why did I do my first book in in first person or in third person?

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Um yeah, that's a discussion we have a lot on this show, and I'm convinced that finding your voice is synonymous with finding the POV that works for you. Um, because a lot of people argue you choose the POV that fits the story, and I argue you choose what works for you, what you're good at. And when I've I did the same thing, you know, my first several books were third past, and because I'm like, that's how books work, because I'm an idiot. Um, and then I switched to first present. I'm like, why is this so easy? Like, why am I so much more invested and connected? And and because that's my voice, so that's what I do. Um, because that's what I know that I'm best at. Um, but it's but you have to do all that other stuff to get to that point of learning that that's what works for it.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

But I think it's good to mix it up too, to have some books in third. I wrote the last book I wrote had four PODs, so that was a lot. Yeah, that was my that's the one I really had to outline because it's a lot going on.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Um, and that's hard too to make all the P the voices sound different in a way that's not gimmicky.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

And that was one thing my editor was like, just these two girls sound a little bit too similar, so you gotta take feedback and add some more layers to it. Um, yeah. But I don't you I this is a question I have for you because I know you write a lot from a female perspective. Yeah, how do you, and I know you have a a son and a daughter, right? Yeah, do you take like how your daughter speaks because she's younger, like you know, younger?

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Like, how do you do that? Because when I write from a male perspective, I have to get drunk. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that, and I have to channel like a darker mindset. I don't know, because it's weird right from a guy's point point of view.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah, I don't know what it is. I remember I because I first started doing that because I didn't like when people I knew thought my character sounded so much like me, I just didn't like that. And and as you know, when you write from a uh you know totally different perspective, it kind of frees you up a little bit. Um, and it can be hard. Again, going back to your advice, I tend not to overthink it, I tend not to put them in situations where you know, this is like, what would a woman do? What would a man do? I I tend to have situations where this is what a human would do in in this kind of fraught dilemma. Um, I minimize it a lot in terms of I'm not going into huge descriptions, um, things like that. But yeah, it's just it's just a lot more freeing for me. And of course, you know, first person who sees any book of mine is my partner, who's a woman, and then my agent's a woman, my editors. So I have no lack of very smart women who with a keen eye who can give me great feedback.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

They can be like, no, a girl wouldn't do this.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Yeah, and there are situations where like you do have to be like, no, she would never get up from the bar and just leave her drink unattended, you know, to use the bathroom. Um, things like that. Like, yeah, okay, that's great feedback, you know. And um, but I also love I also love writing. Protagonists who make bad decisions, um, so maybe maybe they do that, and you know, and they're fallible.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

So I love it are my favorite to write, that's like the most fun, so right, right.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

No, totally. Um, so just in this process, again, going back to your book coming out next week, has there been anything that surprised you, either good or bad? Anything way different than what you expected, or you're just like, I didn't expect anything, so this is all just fresh and new.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

I would say yes to all of that. Um yeah, I didn't expect much, um, but it's still a lot, it's a lot planning like a book tour. Um, I'm doing a lot in Michigan just because the book takes place in Michigan, right? From Michigan. Um, and so we're doing a lot up there. And then um next week we're in Boca, Barnes and Noble. So kind of the tour was a lot, but I think once you have more than one book out, so I wrote this what essentially three years ago, right? We're getting back into the mindset of where I was at that point of view, right? To remember kind of how to pitch this. Um, and while doing inline edits for my one coming out in April, promoting this book and then doing uh writing something new right now.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

So it's a lot. Yeah, you always get them con I mean I always get everything confused. I'm like, what are we talking about? Yeah, most probably. And that's not so much because I've written so many books, it's just because my brain is I I don't multitask with books very well. So it is when you get pulled out of something and you go into a different universe, and people are asking you questions about it, and you're really having to remember because you know, I'm not going back and rereading my books or anything, so it's like I gotta remember what happens, and it seems like it should be easy to do, but it's sometimes it's not. Sometimes I'm like, Who is that character again?

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Like I had on my good on my Goodreads, which I don't know if you've ever read your Goodreads, it's hit and miss. Um, but I had someone write, I love this quote of the advanced readers that they got the copies, and I'm like, God, I remember writing that. Like, what paper is that on? But that's a great quote, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

So I know that is weird. Yeah, I do look at Goodreads. I think Goodreads is important. Um, you know, I guess at this stage in my career, what I do so far, I have a book coming out in November. So I'll I will read, you know, about six months before you start getting the advanced reader reviews, I will read the first 20 just to get a pulse because I know these are people who've been approved by Net Gally, people who my publisher recognizes as early adopters and influencers. So I want to see what they have to say, and then I just look at the overall numbers to to see how it's pacing. Um, once it's out, to see you know, that's an indication of sales. Um, and then the overall rating, like you know, I I feel like if you can if you have several thousand reviews and you can end up with a three and a half or higher, you're doing a good job. Yeah, yeah, especially on Goodreads. I mean, Amazon is always about a half a star higher on average. Just I don't know, people are well.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

I think the Goodreaders they take it seriously, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:05

They're just yeah, they're hardcore.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Yeah, it's tough though when they'll be like, they'll give you like a 3.75. I'm like, dude, just round it to a four. Just give me four. I mean, like, right.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

I know, I know, or somebody who will just rave about it and still give it a four. You're like, Yeah, there's no like nothing bad.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Yeah, and you're like, What happened? Yeah, but I that's the book behind you, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:24

I love the cover for yeah, they they they did a great job with that cover.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

It's a very I think covers may I don't know between you. I think it matters. I think it people judge people on first looks, they judge it on books too.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

So, yeah, absolutely. Um I think that was part of the reason for the success of my breakout. It just had such a compelling cover. Um tell me what you did.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

I gotta read it. Oh it came out in October, right? So you got the orange, you uh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

And it takes place in October. Um, yeah, I love that. But yeah, no, I I totally agree. Um, and and you know, I just let the publishers, they they will give me a whole presentation around the cover, and and sometimes you know, we push back if if there's something that doesn't feel right, but generally speaking, it's like this is what they do, they are very smart at this kind of thing, and I'm not so same thing with titles.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

I had a weird thing with mine, so this I think it's it's looks dark probably, but it's really with comes out, but uh title really pops. So my brother is in. Um, he like ran the whole Total Line website and he's in like branding and design. And normally you would never get this chance, but he designed the cover, and I sent it to my editor just like oh, let me know if you like it. Like, normally you would never get to choose the cover of your brand, unless you hated it and you're like, You guys, I really don't like this. Maybe they would can but they loved it and they they took it, so it's kind of cool that my brother designed it. That's great.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, and I mean, I've even had covers with the same publisher, they go back and they change them like three books later to reflect whatever direction that they're moving in now to keep it all kind of right. Because you're a poison press, so I don't know if they keep it all branded, if they how that works, if they buy it's kind of it's kind of branded per person, like what people get to know or expect from you as an author. So, like Mr. Tender's girl was a very different covering now. They changed it. Um, so for newer versions or whatever. So it's yeah, there's all this thought behind it that is not my job. It's not, you know, what I'm good at.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

So I'm glad that there are people there who are did you come up with the idea for telling me what you did because you're doing a podcast? I I that was one of my questions I wanted to ask you.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

No, it was a buddy of mine who told me to listen to a podcast about people who would leave apologies on this voicemail line. Oh, and it immediately like I immediately thought, like, what if people were leaving confessions? And that's all I knew was a podcast where people confessed to something.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

And so I just sat down and started writing. But but it helped having my own podcast to know like a little bit of the ins and outs of it, but it's not not that it's very complicated. You just have to have good mic and good lighting and and an ability to kind of understand stuff on the in on the net, but that's about it. Um what has excited you most? Like, I mean, aside from selling the book, then you wait, wait, wait, wait, wait for it to come out. It's a week from coming out. You're going on a tour, which is always exciting, um, although nerve-wracking because you're like, what if nobody shows up? Which has totally happened to me, um, more than once. Um, but what has been like this is really exciting?

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Um, I think just that I like whether it's my first book's a success or not, I don't have any like in my head what's gonna happen, but I think just that I did it because I I was like, I'm gonna do this, and I did it. So and my daughter is very into writing, she's 11. So it's kind of cool to like she got to see mom do what she said she was gonna do, and right.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

You're gonna see it on a bookshelf in a real store.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

In a real store, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

That's and and when you can point that out to your kids, you know, that's pretty cool. That was like my only goal. Like, once I got an agent, my only goal is like I just want one book published in my life that I can show my kids, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

I'm not like trying to live off off the book sales or anything, like luckily, you know, knock on wood. Um, so yeah, yeah, excited. I'm I am nervous because I have to I'm not shy. I don't get the vibe that you're shy either. No, I feel like most writers tend to be more shy, yeah. I'm at but the thought though of sitting up in front of everybody and like doing like a QA with a moderator is what I've been nervous about. Yeah, um, but I think I'm just gonna wing it.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

So yeah. Well, I love that stuff because you don't have to prepare. Like it's it's different, like what I tell people. I, you know, I I definitely discourage people from doing readings unless they're really, really, really specifically asked to, just because they tend not to land very well unless you're really good at it, which very few people are. I also teach public speaking, so I I've seen a lot of this and I've worked with a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

So I've got a class with you before next week.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Um, but it's just it is weird when you're in this atmosphere in front of people and they're asking you questions about something that just you just made up. Um, and now people are absorbing, and it becomes this weird out-of-body thing. It's like we're all talking about this thing that I just thought about and then I worked out, and it's a very weird kind of moment, and those moments continue to happen to me, you know. Um, but that's when you can also just sit back and reflect in the gratitude of like, I'm so grateful that people are interested in this, and you know, regardless of how the book sells, people are there and they're supporting you, and it's very few people get that opportunity in life, so it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Totally, I I just think it's weird to go up there too, and like it's like you're talking about yourself, which I don't I I'm a little bit I would say I'm modest, yeah. So it's kind of like, and then you know how it is on Instagram, you got to promote yourself now. Yeah, so it's a little out of my comfort to be like, hey guys, this book's great, like, come on, everybody, like, but yeah, that's what you got to do. So, and I and I think the book's great, but again, it's gotta land for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

So, yeah, and and I think that's a real sticking point. It's funny. I'm actually teaching a class on the Saturday about being visible and promoting yourself and how you have to do all these things and the and the pushback you get from so much of the writing community, especially the aspiring authors out there, is that what you just exactly what you just said. Like, I feel gross promoting myself, like nobody cares. And so that doesn't mean you have to go out there and say, Hey, this is a great book. You you talk like you have a lot of great talking points, right? You could talk about kind of this is the angle of grief that became cathartic for me writing this story. That's not I think it's important to be revealing about oneself, but that doesn't mean you're necessarily boasting, you're just saying, This is how I did it, this is what it came to me. Here were the struggles with it, here's what was unexpected, and that's all the real stuff that people are interested in. You know, if you're just constantly posting, buy my book, buy my book, buy my book, people tune out.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Um, no, I feel like I do I do some funny stuff too. I don't mean my friends will just go to Barnes and Noble and make funny reels too. So I've got most of my followers from that.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Totally, funny reels on yeah, totally, and just be like humble about like I can't believe my book's here. You know, this is such a weird feeling. So, but it's yeah, it's it's going to be memorable.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

But you don't have a degree in right, like I that's another imposter thing. Like, my degree's in advertising. I did sales for Pepsi and Ford before all this.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Yeah, I was real estate finance in the hotel industry.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Uh yeah, so that's kind of gets in your head, like, well, I don't have a degree in this, like you know. So again, you go back and forth where you read your work and you're like, This is great, and then you'll read it and you're like, I don't know, I don't know if this is good.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Like, yeah, I think you I mean, uh, like again, the three books that I wrote that never sold, that was my education. And you just get to a point where you know you can become a very popular author and you just know you're not going to please everybody, you found your niche, and that niche is enough to make you happy. Um, and that within that niche, you're like, Yeah, I'm pretty good. Um, and if somebody from who's a big fan of literary fiction reads my book, they might think it's total shit. That's totally cool. I know, you know, I know my lane, I know what I like, I know what I'm good at. And that helps with imposter syndrome because I I you know it never quite goes away. You're able to treat it. Um, but yeah, I remember even after I hit bestseller list, I wouldn't tell people I was a writer if I met them at a cocktail party because I always felt like I have a full-time job that's supporting me, my writing's not supporting me. Why would I dare tell people I'm a writer first? You know, what right do I have? Um, and now that I'm supporting myself as a writer or trying to, like, I can tell it fine, but but that all boils down to the imposter syndrome that like you're you're looking, you know, and sometimes that's from also outside influences, like if for sure, they're like, Oh, that's cute, you wrote a book.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

That's totally, totally.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

And if that's coming from your family, I see this a lot where your husband or wife or spouse is maybe not directly, but subtly kind of treating it as a hobby, and you need to treat it as a career, even if you haven't sold anything yet, because it's that kind of mindset that gets you places, then you just have this conflict that's just existential in your marriage, you know. And I see this a lot, and it creates that impossible. Like, how dare I, you know, especially if it's feeling like you're taking away time from the family to do this, but it's the mom guilt.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

If you hit the nail on the head with the mom guilt, I'm like, yeah, what am I doing this for? You know, sorry, guys, mommy's writing a murder chapter, somebody's getting murdered right now, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

With my kids, but I think at the end of the day, it writing's a passion for me at least. And if that's gonna make me a better mom, that you know, that I'm doing what I love, you just gotta make time. And I've had that talk with my husband, like, hey, I can do law firm stuff at this time, I'll pick up the kids at this time, but I gotta have this time to write.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

So and most people understand, but those who don't that you know, you as the writer have to take control of that and be like, no, this is what I'm doing. Um, and and it, you know, whether or not it pays off, this is my passion in life, to your point. So um, and if your spouse doesn't understand, then maybe that's uh something you need to reevaluate as well.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

No, he's been supportive. I I we we just finished a legal thriller and he helped write the trial scenes because I didn't really know if I was doing that part right.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Yeah, that's great. That's great. Well, Rachel, we're gonna wrap up before we do. We're gonna do our own little storytelling just to get you prepped for your tour, get you get your brain working. Um uh this is the making up portion of the show. I've got three books here that I chose from random uh off my bookshelf. You're gonna choose one of these books, and we're gonna choose a random sentence from a random page. I'm gonna read that sentence out loud, and that'll be the first sentence and maybe a two-minute long short story where we just alternate sentences back and forth. So we can do whatever we want with this. Um, I've got Tess Garretsen's The Summer Guests, um, Jen Sierra's I Know She Was There, and Matthew Sullivan's Midnight in Soap Lake. So choose one of those. They are all thrillers.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

I think because we have objects in lakes, we gotta go midnight at soap lake.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

It's a great book. It's a great book. It's very strange. Matthew's a great writer. Um, give me a page number between one and four fourteen. Okay, I'm gonna quickly scan eighty-seven to see if there's something that might work. Um all right, you do whatever you want with this. Um I'm happy to go first too, just let me know, but I'm just gonna read the sentence. She threw the trash at his feet.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

And as she did, she looked down and noticed he wasn't wearing the normal slippers.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

He didn't even move. Although she could see he was more nervous than she expected. He wasn't she knew he wasn't used to these kind of outbursts from her. But but when she looked down at what she had thrown, what surprised her most was the syringe that she hadn't noticed before.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

She leaned down to inspect it. She noticed there was still a little blood at the tip.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

As she looked back up, her gaze scanned his body, starting with the toes all the way up to his neck, but lingering the most at his forearms, looking for any telltale sign that he'd been using again. She saw nothing. But she knew he could be very tricky about this.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

She looked over to him and said in the trash and found two more needles.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

That's when her attention got bragged got brought back to the fact that he wasn't not only was he not wearing his slippers, he was barefoot. And she knew she remembered the one time he told her about when he was a 15-year-old living on the streets, he would shoot up into the veins in his feet. She looked back down and her heart sunk when she saw the tops of his feet.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

She slowly got back up and took a deep breath, inching her way closer to the truth. She looked in his eyes and she saw that they were dark like a shark, and she knew.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

I think we call it there. And what I love about that is if you look back at this story, not a single piece of dialogue. They never spoke.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

You know, I just had that up as a joke when I wrote 10 pages and forgot to write any dialogue.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Which is weird as a screenwriter.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Yeah, right. I know it's either one or the other. I noticed that. It's either all talking or like just action.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Well, Rachel, what a pleasure to connect. I'm glad we finally I know we postponed this a couple of times. I'm glad we finally got a chance to talk. And and I hope I see you at next year's Thriller Fest for all the debut uh activities. And and man, best of luck. You know, you've got a you've got a fun next few weeks ahead of you. And uh, you know, just soak it all in.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

I'm excited. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Of course, we'll chat soon.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

All right, thanks, Carter.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Bye. All right, that is it. That is my conversation with Rachel Ramos. Be sure to check out her new book, Objects and Links. It's it's her debut novel. Uh, it just came out, so make sure you check that out. And you can read everything about the book and about her at rachelramas.com. And if you're interested in checking out my new book, which comes out in November, it's called When They Find Me. Um, I love this book. I'm so excited for it. Please go to carterwilson.com and you can read all about it and pre-order it. Please pre-order it if you're interested. That makes such a difference. Um, however, you do it, whether it's it's an ebook or audio or or a physical copy, just pre-order. Um, and if you're looking for any kind of writing advice, make sure to check out unboundrider.com and you can see all my offerings there as well. All right, we are wrapped up. That is it. That is this that is it for this episode of Making It Up. Um, appreciate you as always watching andor listening. Another episode out just next week. In the meantime, friends and writers, always take care.