Making It Up with Eriq La Salle, author of Laws of Annihilation

"Everything that I do between directing, acting, producing, being an author… it's all storytelling. And that's the one piece of confidence that I've always had clarity on. I'm a storyteller." — Eriq La Salle 

Actor, director, producer, and masterful storyteller Eriq La Salle is best known to worldwide television audiences for his award-winning portrayal of Dr. Peter Benton on the medical drama ER. Educated at Juilliard and NYU’s Tisch School of the Arts, his credits range from Broadway to film roles, starring alongside Eddie Murphy in Coming to America, Robin Williams in One Hour Photo, and Hugh Jackman in Logan. La Salle has worked as a director for HBO, Showtime, Netflix, Amazon Prime, ABC NBC, Fox and CBS productions. As a writer, La Salle is the author of several critically-acclaimed thrillers published by Sourcebooks—Laws of Depravity (2022), Laws of Wrath (2023), and Laws of Annihilation (2023). 

Among other things, Eriq and Carter discuss Eriq’s journey entering the writing industry when he already had a degree of fame, feeling like a “real” writer when you self-publish, and the movie The Godfather. At the end of their conversation, they make up a fascinating story using a line from Lisa Gardner’s Kiss Her Goodbye. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Writers, hello. This is Carter and welcome to this episode of Making It Up, the conversation series, the podcast, the whatever you want to call it. I'm just talking to other authors. We're just talking about writing, we're talking about books, we're talking about failure and success. We're talking about the agony of not having anyone appreciate our work and then figuring out how to turn that around. Um, really, we're talking about the writer's journey rather than people's specific books. Um, I love hearing about writer's journey. And uh, my guest today has a great journey, and I can't wait uh for him to share it with all of you. Before I get to that, um, just a couple quick announcements. Um, if you are interested in learning from thriller authors, the craft of writing dark suspense, think about coming to my Unbound Writer Paris retreat. So I'm being joined by Alex Finlay, Clemence Michelin, and his special guest um Riley Sager and Abby Dunn of Crime by the Book. Next May 3rd through 6th, 2027 in Paris, France, um, for four days of craft and writing. It is going to be awesome. I'm so excited. Spots are already filling up a lot. Um, we're gonna be eliminating the limiting this to like 20, 25 people uh, because we want to keep this intimate. We want to have make sure um every student has a lot of one-on-one access with the teachers. Um, so if this is something that might be of interest to you, check it all out at my website, unboundwriter.com. And while I'm at it, I'm just going to plug my next book, When They Find Me, comes out November 10th of this year, 2026. Um, it's getting a lot of buzz. I'm very grateful and thankful for all of that. Um, if you're interested in pre-ordering, just check it out on my website, CarterWilson.com, and you can read all about it and see if it might be up your alley. And there are plenty of links to order it from uh whatever store you want to order it from. All right. So today on the show, I had Eric LaSalle. So, you know, Eric LaSalle is best known to worldwide television audiences for his award-winning portrayal of Dr. Peter Benton on the medical drama ER. Um, oh my God, was I in the ER? Um, that was my sweet spot. I mean, obviously, first massive medical drama on TV, and it, you know, I was into it. You know, and Peter Benton, Eric's character, kind of a dick. He was kind of the mean guy. Uh, and and he was so well played by Eric. Um, so Eric went to Juilliard um at NYU's Tisch School of the Arts and did Broadway, a lot of film. You know, he's with Eddie Murphy in Coming to America. He was with Robin Williams in One Hour Photo, Hugh Jackman and Long and Logan. Um, and he kept acting, but he kind of transitioned over to um directing for you know HBO, Showtime, Netflix, Prime, um, some of the uh major networks. And, you know, then he worked with the Dick Wolfe entertainment team. So he became an executive producer and director on Chicago PD. Uh, lots of uh directing, directed lots of episodes of Law and Order, Law and Order SVU, Organized Crime. Um, so he did all those things, he still does all those things. Um, but some time ago, he's like, I'm gonna write a book, you know. As he talks about in this in this um podcast, that desire to write was always with him, even going back to eight, nine years old, going back to 14 years old when he wanted to write the school play rather than audition for it. Um, so that that, you know, God, we see this time and time again. If you're a writer, it is going to come out of you one way or another, kicking and screaming at some point in your life. You know, as he described it, from like 14 to 50, he was kind of in on the acting, directing, producing side of things in the film and TV industry. And then at 50, he became the writer. Um, so it does come out of you one way or another. Uh, and he started out by self-publishing, and then the same publisher I'm with, Source Books, Poison Pen Press, acquired his older uh books. Um, and uh, you know, the the first couple books in a series and are re-releasing them along with his newer books in the series as well. And his latest book, it's not out yet, it's going to be out in September. It's called Laws of Solomon, um, and it looks amazing. It's a martyr maker novel, so it's one of his books in his series. Um, and so great to hear him talk about, it's very fascinating to hear him talk about his journey, you know, which is similar, it's surprisingly similar to a lot of writers' journeys, right? There's the self-doubt. There's am I good enough for this? Um, do I know what I'm doing? And and on top of that, you have almost the perception of like being known in another industry can almost create this dismissal when you try to do something different. So he had to he had to fight against that as well. And, you know, again, he as he says in the episode a couple of times, he's not feeling sorry for himself, you know, but there are real struggles that that that he's had. It's not just because you're well known in one industry, you can just, you know, get traditionally published right out of the gate. Um, it doesn't translate that and like that. And it's interesting to hear him talk about it. So uh it was a fascinating conversation. I could have gone um gone on a lot longer with him. Uh, this is one to listen to for sure. This is my conversation with Eric LaSalle. Uh yeah, I saw you at Thriller Fest. I didn't get a chance to say hi. You were felt like there was a buzz of people constantly behind you. Um, was that your first thriller fest?

SPEAKER_01 6:14

No, I did one probably 11, 12 years ago. Um wow. Yeah, but I that that was it. So this this was my second one. So uh so yeah, so it was it was cool.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

That was so that was before you were published.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Well, I was self-published at the time.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Yeah, so I was self-published and then uh and then we re-released them published um about four or five years ago. Okay. So yeah, so I was uh so I was it was it was at the Hyatt Hotel. So it was it was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Yeah, that Hyatt I think is now gone. I think that was a victim of COVID, yeah. Um but so this time around at Thriller Fest, did you feel like what were you looking to get out of it?

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Well, you know, I mean, uh look, the whole writing world is is community, you know what I mean? Always trying to uh you know, you know, always trying to find your tribe, uh, expand your tribe. Right. Uh and and so, you know, and again, I wanted to go as a you know, now fully published um author, and you know, getting ready to release the next book in September. Uh so you know, so they'll, you know, you you, you know, you there's certain people you want to meet. Um, I got to meet uh John Sanford, who I met at the beginning of my writing journey, and he had actually um sort of had some inf not not influence. Uh I I did a I did one of his books. I I starred in one of his books um for a television movie and produced it and fell in love with the whole thriller concept. So that's kind of when I started writing thriller. Oh, got it. So and it, you know, so you know, just to be able to go up to him and you know, share that with him. Yeah, so it, you know, and had that, and uh, you know, and um just you know, being able to run into some friends I've made in the writing community. Um uh, you know, Greg Hurwitz is, you know, on the board. And so Greg had said, you know, you I should come. You know, so it's so it, you know, had you know, multi-purpose, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Yeah, for sure. And it's it's great that you mentioned community because I think, you know, as I yeah, as I work with a lot of writers, a lot of them don't quite understand how important that is and how you know going to something like a conference 20 years later can pay off these massive dividends because you do have your community, you have people people to to reach out to, but it's got to be a little bit different, I think, for somebody like you who's who's coming in with with a degree of celebrity that no author has, you know, is celebrity in another sense, uh, not necessarily directly in writing, at least not 12 years ago. Um, so it's probably, you know, the those of us who went to Thriller Fest before we were published are all we're all standing with drinks in our hands, you know, hoping we could talk to somebody, but it was probably easier for you to make inroads.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Well, I mean, yes and no. I think that there's sometimes um I think sometimes there's there are misconceptions about celebrity. Um, and that's always a weird word for me. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

But you know, whatever you want to call it, it it is what it is. Um, but but the point is sometimes with that, and this is not um in any way, woe is me. Um, I love my life, I love what I've done, etc. But I I think sometimes there's a misconception about that whole thing because sometimes it's uh it's actually more difficult, or it can be equally, it has its own challenges. How about that? I don't want to take away someone else's journey uh and the challenge that they have on their journey, but you also don't want people to take away from the challenges that you have on your journey. And and and and what you find is because you have um a name in another industry, sometimes it's harder for people to see you in this other and take you seriously. Yeah, they have they're because they're like, oh, you know, they don't oh look at this person, aren't they cute trying to now be an author?

SPEAKER_00 10:12

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Look at this, you know, and and if you you know, if you look at you know basketball, there have been a few, you know, Bo Jacksons, Michael Jordan, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Crossovers, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Crossover, people that played, you know, double sports and Deion Sanders, you know, those, but in general, I think there's a lot of doubt. I think there's a lot of people that's just like, oh, you're not gonna be able to do both of them, and you're not gonna be able to do both of them well. Right. So I think there's a sort of uh reticence. I think there's this reservation to judge you, to welcome you. And don't get me wrong, I've never been um I've never been made to feel unwelcome in any community. You know, I just want to keep it. But my point is um I can feel a shift having done this now and having done the I'm still doing the homework, still learning, but I'm showing up at these things. So I'm not just some uh you know, actor director who kind of wrote a book and expected whatever. It's just like I go, I put in the work, and you know when people start seeing that, oh wow, yeah, that you were at Balshikan, you were this, oh, you're doing this, or you're you're you're reading, you're like, you know, like you're putting in the work. And oh wow, I'm beginning to hear about the writing, and I actually hear it's good writing as a you know what I mean. So, but that it takes time, it takes time. So this this all sort of came together, or is it still coming together, but big difference from 12 years ago um to now, and even 12 years, 12, 12 years ago, it felt more sort of like a it felt like I was being viewed more as a novelty kind of act look. I was that was my first book. So I it is, you know what I mean? But I but I I don't think people uh like you know, can he, you know, the question is can he actually write? Right, you know, and now it's like, oh well, actually, you know, you know, you start getting some reviews, you start getting some buzz, people start talking about it. So then now you're looking at it differently. So that's just been, you know, my my my journey and what I've been experienced.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Yeah, I think it's very similar to a lot of people's journeys, not with the necessarily other industry success that other people would know about, but just the general sense of imposter syndrome. And I know I certainly went through it when I started writing, um, you know, the this sense of like, I don't know what I'm doing, and I'm trying really hard, and I get lost in the shuffle. But and I know you even noticed on your website, once you start getting, you know, if you're fortunate enough to get like starred reviews, for example, there's something there where you're like, all right, I don't suck. I'm I'm okay at a certain level. I can hang out with the people who are doing this and then building from there. And that's what it took for me. I mean, it took hitting bestsellers list before I finally like, okay, maybe I'm not terrible at this.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Right. Yeah, it's a journey, and yeah, and that's that's the thing. And you have to figure out what your what your journey is. And every sometimes every corner you turn, you go, okay, I feel a little better. And sometimes you turn a corner and you feel like you've taken a couple steps back. But there but you always you do feel if you're if you're dedicated to the craft and you have some talent, you definitely feel each corner or most corners feeds progression and movement forward. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 13:29

I do, yeah, yeah, and progression over the things you can control, which I imagine there's a massive um similarity in the entertainment industry. I mean, books are obviously entertainment industry as well, where you can absolutely hone your craft, get better, you see tangible results, but you're still at the whim of is anyone interested in me? You know, maybe you did something great and then nobody wants you or whatever. And and man, that is the underscoring life of an author, as I would imagine it would be uh in film and TV.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

It is. I mean, look, when I made the transition from actor to director, um, you know, there was a little hesitancy. There was I could I could feel it, you know. I mean, it's because until people start going, oh, he can actually direct. You know, it's like at the point, oh, you know, he's uh he's another actor who wants to do this or whatever. And and you know, I tried to be as strategic about it as possible. I I resisted uh directing ER as my first thing because I was like, oh, they that that's I haven't earned that um from a you know the perception is that oh he hasn't earned it, he's he's one of the you know stars on the show, so they they gave it to him. And so I did a more uh difficult route. I went out and you know, shot some short films and showed them to the right people. And and so my debut directing thing, um, my you know, my my my directoral debut was an HBO movie, uh which means you have to earn that. You know what I mean? That's a big swing. That's a big swing, you know what I mean? But but but again, I was I was trying to be very strategic and intentional. Uh so there was, you know, there was a period where people were like, oh, oh, and then I remember when we go, oh wow, he's a really good director. So if and that's within the same um same class or the same the same framework of art. Uh so to make a greater leap from entertainment to publishing, yeah, yes, you're gonna get a little bit more resistant. And like I said, look, man, I'm I'm not I'm not here to, you know, I'm not I'm by no means, whoa, it's been so hard for me. No, I'm not saying that. I'm just simply saying everyone has their challenges, um, however they get there. And um does to just keep striving to get there, and this this has been my journey, you know.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

And that intentionality to kind of wait and not take a directing credit when you felt you weren't earning it yet, is pretty profound and probably not something most people would do. I'm just talking out of my ass here, but I'm guessing. Um, but there is something to be said, and this totally correlates with publishing, is like, hey, this might be your only shot. So don't don't do it before you're ready. And and I'm curious with self-publishing your first novel, um, and I have many opinions about self- self-publishing. I think it's great, and and a lot of people can be very successful with it. I also know people who've self-published, and I'm like, man, you weren't ready yet, and now it's out there. Um what was your feeling about doing that?

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Well, again, that comes with its own stigma because, you know, look, we did the you know, the full rounds of um sending it to every publisher and being rejected multiple times, like, you know, the thing, same thing that, you know, yeah, I know it quite well. Yeah, every you know, everyone knows and so you know, I did that, but now I was like, well, I I believe in it and I uh I'm not gonna let it die. Uh so I started exploring, you know, self-publishing and and publishing. And then, you know, then there's the stigma again, which is oh, that's cute. He's not a real writer. Um, he's a self-publisher. And look, there's no regulation on self-publishing. And I'm but on the flip side, I'm not impressed with a lot of mainstream published books. You know what I mean? You're like, really? Like this is, you know, or you know, this this book is a New York Times bestseller. Like, you know what I mean? So but but but uh you have the quote unquote legitimacy of it being a New York Times bestseller. You have the legitimacy of a uh big five publishing house behind you, you have the legitimacy, uh, whereas when you self-publish, uh you don't really have legitimacy. You know what I mean? Anyone, it's a pool that anyone can technically jump in. So they know it didn't, it wasn't, it didn't have to go through anything. Even bad books and publishing still went through some some people laying eyes on it, you know what I mean? And whether, and again, whether you know that there are plenty of books that I go, okay, I might whatever. But it still went through a certain process. Whereas you go as a self-publisher, uh as a self-published author, um, you know, the perception is like, okay, you just jumped in, you know, there was no regulation. So it's kind of you can't, it's cute, you know. He's oh yeah, oh he's a self-published author. And I listen, I I want to be, you know, to get real here. I have to check myself sometimes when someone tells me they're self-published. I have to check myself that I don't dismiss them. That I don't, oh, that's you know what I mean. Now that now that I'm a published author, I've got to check myself and be like, hey, now you and I both know nine and a half out of ten of these self-published books are going to be not great. You know what I mean? Um and so but some you go, oh wow, that had that actually is pretty cool. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Some get picked up and get re-released by uh source books.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Exactly. So yeah, so you know, so but you know, but that's that's just uh it's just human nature, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 19:29

It is, yeah. I work with a lot of writing students and like the idea of like it's so interesting. The idea of letting go is so interesting to see. Like you said, you you you saw, you know, this is a great book, and I can objectively, as best as I can, tell that this is a solid book that it deserves its place. So I'm gonna do something with it. In my case, I was so insecure that I wouldn't self-publish because I needed somebody to tell me I was good enough to be traditionally. I don't I didn't care how small the house was, you know, just but I that was that came from deep insecurity of my own. And I think that so it's it's commendable, I think, to to recognize hey, this this thing is as good as anything I'm seeing out there being traditionally published, so let's find an avenue for it. And I don't think a lot of people have that that confidence in themselves from a writing perspective.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Yeah, but you also have to have I again before I had the authors community, I just had a community of friends and readers, people, but but but the friends that read really well and and and and uh and and were critical and uh were opinionated and intelligent. And so, you know, when you start sharing the books with them, you have to be willing to uh uh hear their truths. And so, and I and you have to give them the freedom to tell their truths so that they don't you you can't be so hypersensitive that no one wants to tell you you know, the baby's ugly, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

And that's up to you to find the right people who are going to be willing to do that, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

And so I uh I was able to do that, and they were the ones that said, Look, I read a lot, and this book is as good as uh the stuff I'm reading. That's so that's the kind of confidence that you start going, oh, and so I don't know if it's confidence or it's just reassurance or whatever it is, but then you start going, oh, okay, cool. Like I I hope so and I thought so, but now you're getting some validation, and you and I both know there's no validation like legitimate, right? You know, of course, that's that's that's the goal, but but that's all I had back then. And that's when I said, Well, you know, screw it. I'm gonna uh I'm gonna self publish and uh and then it's and I'm like the second one. Well, the right the great thing about writing a series is you feel once one book in the series hits, there's always a chance of people going back and discovering. Right series. So I then after that I wrote the second book. I was like, oh yeah, the second book is going to be the one that's going. Did the same thing, shopped it around, got rid of it. Totally. And I did. And so by the time the third book, um, I, you know, I had a a different agent, and my agent was like, You're not self-publishing again. These books are too good to be self-published. And then we found, and Source Books did an amazing job of saying, okay, we want your third book, and as a benefit and as a bonus, we're going to go back and republish your first two self-published books. So it was the best of both worlds. Uh which I have booked. So that was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

That's one of the toughest situations to be in. Um, because I see it a lot, is somebody who's mid-unpublished mid-series or self-published mid-series asking a traditional publisher to pick up book three or book four. Um, because that, you know, they really only want to do that if they want to have attachment to the entire series, because otherwise they're they're a little bit orphaned with it. Um, and you know, kudos to Source Book and kudos to you for them recognizing kind of the quality of the books and saying, Yeah, let's let's play with all of these. And they're I've been with them now for eight books, I think. Um, and yeah, you know, Mandy, I've worked with for years and years, yeah, just and I've been with other publishers too, so I can see the difference. Like they're tremendous, you know. They've got for you.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Yeah, but they've grown, they've grown tremendously, massively. I've been I've been with them for about three to four years, and it's uh you know, now they're one of the top five. I mean, they're they've grown, you know, and you're like, I know.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Okay, so you know, I was with them before there was even a poison pen pri. I think I joined them in like 2017, and just they're like, Yeah, we're thinking about kind of getting more into like suspense and mystery and thrillers. I'm like, great, and now, yeah, like to your point, Freedom McFadden, you know, is like all these big names, and it's been tremendous for my success as well, because what they do is they they're willing. I don't want to talk too much out of the turn, but they're absolutely willing to let you be mid-list and develop your career, um, and not just be like, Yeah, we hoped that would sell more and it didn't, so we're done with you. Which there are publishers like that for sure.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. So I think you know, there's the there's the nurturing of an artist, you know. Yeah, look at like some of the great things, like you know, even if you look at like a great show like Seinfeld, right? You know, Seinfeld back in the day was gonna be canceled. It was gonna be canceled, it was just considered so so, but you had someone who said, No, no, Brandon Tardikov said, No, we're gonna we're gonna give this thing a try and and we're gonna we're gonna support it. And you allow yourself to go right now, and we're obviously in a society where it's even more prevalent, it's just like you gotta produce what you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

It's the attention deficit disorder of the country.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

You're done. You had your right, you didn't sell you didn't sell uh 50,000 books or 100,000 books or whatever, you're done, you know what I mean? And uh, and then you know it's just it's just it's it's weird. So you just gotta keep you know trying to find people that get down like you that believe the way that you believe. Okay, you know what, we want to save our time here. Let's uh let's get it. So I think it is a benefit, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

And so, and then when you, you know, obviously, and we're not gonna go through your whole childhood or anything, but uh, you clearly, you know, I'm sure from an early age had a very creative mind, probably didn't know how to channel it. Like, where do I go? What do I do with all of this? Um, and looking at your career, at some point, you know, you obviously sat down and write a novel, wrote a novel, which is a tremendously difficult thing to do, regardless of your background. Was that an aspiration you had always had, or was it just as more and more you were exposed, I know you were doing writing within the film and TV industry. Was it something like, I want to, I want to see if I can do this?

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Yeah, I mean, I it's it's it's a it's sort of a twofold story because um before I thought about being an actor, I wanted to write. I knew how to write before anything. And so, you know, I think you know, eight years old, nine years old, you're writing, and at that time I'm writing poetry, and you know, and then you're you know, you get older. So I was much more comfortable with with with that. Uh and then at 14, as a freshman in high school, I uh saw that they were having auditions for a play, and I had this fantasy that I would be able to write this amazing play and it would be performed, and I would be, you know, you know, the the the hero and all of that stuff. And I went and the um the director was I told him my great plan, I was, oh yeah, I want to write. He was like, Yeah, listen, we're having auditions. Do you want to audition or not? And so I auditioned, and that's when the acting bug bit. And so then you figure from 14 years old um up until technically 50, um, it was about acting, directing. And so I wrote my first novel at 50. Um, so it was cool. Now look, look, of course, I've been writing short films in between. I'd been, you know, experimenting with you understood story, obviously. I understood story, yeah. So uh, but then to then sit down and say, okay, I want to actually, you know, write this novel. But then you you kind of deal with the who am I to write a novel? Right. You know, it's one of the most revered, one of the most revered things in our society. It's for it's it's always for people smarter than us, right? And were born in some smart vacuum that we weren't born in. Right. We got our MFA. You know what I mean? Of course, that's your thing, and you you know, before you really know it, and you go, Well, who am I to write? And you know, I I personally, you know, I went through the Hartford public school system. Uh, although I had great teachers, it was, you know, definitely not the um best education. Um, and so I I'm much more in certain ways more self-taught. Um, you know, so but you know, again, who am I, this you know, skinny bull-legged kid from Hartford, Connecticut, who are you to, you know, think you can write a novel? You know, and you know, so you go you go through that and then you you try it. And and uh the first thing I did, um, I gave it to some friends, and it was really weird. I don't know if you've ever experienced this. Um there was no response. I had I'd given the story to people almost pretended like I never gave it to them. Oh my god, that's horrific. That's horrifying. And you know, and as an author, you know, look, when you send your stuff out, you you stop breathing until you hear silence is worse than negative feedback. And so there were people that like I never and I would see them or I would talk to them, and they're like, Oh my god, I'm going to the game tonight, and all I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

And so and so it's like telling someone you love them and not hearing it back, you know, did you hear what I said?

SPEAKER_01 29:29

So, um, you know, look, I uh it uh the first, you know, my first attempt uh obviously didn't go um as I hoped. Um, but uh in the true fashion uh of of authors, um we always like to try to save things. So I did salvage the concept of part of the the part of the story, and I made that a B storyline in my first book. It's a love story.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

And so um I was like, oh, I want to do a thriller and I'm gonna have this love story element. So I took the concept of that and put it in so I was able to use it. But um, and and then that one was, you know, received well. That's when people started going, oh my God, this is really, really interesting. This is really tight, this is really cool, great characters, really good writing. So that's when, so it took me, it took, you know.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

But the interesting thing is, you know, I love looking at the psychology of writing and that period that in between of I tried it, I failed, and I did it again. That's where most people stop, or a lot of people stop because there's like, I don't like that feeling so much that I'm never going to do this again. And the thing is, it's that feeling that has to drive you a certain way. You're like, you have to be vulnerable enough to say, okay, maybe I'm not good enough. How do I get better? How do I study? How do I write more? Because sometimes it's just you got to write a lot of words just to get better. That's there's no way around it.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

And sometimes you have to have what's considered, I mean, I I I use these words lightly because I think that there's great success and lessons, but you have to use the quote unquote perceived failure, yeah. Um, and analyze it. Like what about it didn't work? Uh, and and then again, obviously that's why getting feedback is so important because it does give you some kind of guidance. I didn't really have the fact that people weren't responding to it.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

It's still data, it's just not that helpful, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:31

So I so I I had to figure it out, but then I got a more organic story. I got uh because that you know, this that story was a little bit out there. Uh, and then I I was just inspired and and and said, okay, cool. I'm gonna run and I'm gonna I'm gonna try it again because I think there's that the innate, the innate storyteller. And so everything that I do between, you know, directing, acting, producing, um, being an author, it's all storytelling.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

And that's the one thing, that's the one piece of confidence that I've always had clarity on. Uh I'm a I'm a storyteller.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

You know how to tell a story, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Know how to tell a story. That's the and that's and that's so when you think about what what said what saves you, sometimes sometimes it has to be just one thing that saves you in the midst of your perceived failure. You go, well, I yes, I know that didn't work, I know I burned the cookies, but you know how to bake, you know what I mean? I know how to, I know how I know how to whip stuff up. Now I just gotta learn how to manage the oven part of it, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Right. So when that first book, and then you said you you you took some elements of that as a B story for the next book, and you said I knew it was going to be a thriller. Was that first book a thriller? And where, yeah, because I know you have a lot of obviously uh producing credits around Law and Order, Chicago PD, you know, kind of darker TV. Uh, where did that idea of like go dip dipping into thrillers come from?

SPEAKER_01 33:06

It was a it was a thriller, but not a procedural. Got it. So it was it was dark and it was it was a dark love story, and uh and it and it had some interesting qualities to it. Um when that didn't quite work, I was able to, like I say, take the heart of the love story and put it into a procedural thriller as a as a B storyline. Um, so that's that's kind of how it was salvaged.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

That's interesting. Yeah, and procedurals, you know, I I don't write procedurals because I think they're really difficult. Um, they're highly structured. You really have to know your stuff. Um is is it a is it something where you're I I've got the general idea for a story and I'm just gonna make it up as I go along, or you are I've got to outline the hell out of this thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Oh no, no, no. I'm the I'm I'm the former, not the so am I. I wish, I wish, I wish I was organized. Me too. I'm always I'm always a little jealous, but then at the same time, I love how the magic hits us when we I think it I think we have to honor how our own brains work. Yeah, and so I no, I'm I I don't know where I'm going. Um as a matter of fact, with my very first book, Laws of Depravity, I started with the I started with the antagonist. I knew who the antagonist was before I knew who the protagonist was. Right. Which is fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

That probably says something about your own psychology.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Yeah, you know, yeah, exactly. I was I was you know, I I was I was I was in my office and just randomly read this story, which I didn't know at the time. Um, it's not in the Bible, but it is um a part of um uh uh uh religious historians um tell it all the time that all of Jesus' disciples were brutally murdered, um decapitated, torn limb from limb. They died horrible, horrible deaths. Right, crucified, yeah. And they weren't 12, they were actually 20 something. They were the lesser and the minor. So anyway, so I'm reading this story and I was like, wow, that's fascinating. And then I just literally just came to him. I said, Wow, wouldn't it be cool to have a modern-day serial killer killing people in the same fashion that Jesus' disciples were murdered? And and so that led me to my antagonist, you know, and then I was like, Oh, this this guy's gonna be really, he's killing fallen priests, he's killing, you know, he's he's he's it's like the movie seven, he's preaching a sermon in school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I I ran on, and you know, didn't have him fully developed, but uh, but enough to know, okay, that's what it is. And I was like, oh, who the heroes? Well, now I've got a kind of so it comes to you anyway, it comes to you. Um, but I love I love it coming to you. I love, I love the fact that I don't do index cards and then I neither it's frustrating at times, of course. Yeah, but at the same time, like I just got inspired. I'm writing book five of the series now. Uh book four comes out in uh September, so I'd like to have this ready so that we can release this six months later. So I'm writing book five, I'm three-quarters of the way through. I've been getting jammed up for the last you know couple of weeks. Don't you know feel like you're flowing as much. And then today, you know, breakthrough. And I'm I'm in there writing, and my assistant comes, so you gotta jump on the zoom. I'm like, okay, I'll be right there. Uh, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Yeah, because it has to be kind of just percolating in the background, and you have to honor that, I think. And it forcing the ideas out by just sitting there and thinking, it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

It doesn't work, you know. I I get up in the morning and um I like writing and you know, beautiful view, but I also, you know, sometimes I just get up, I'll go on my morning, go on a morning walk, and I I call it you know, a writing walk, you know what I mean? Oh, and and you come back and you're like, oh, you know, and you put it down. So however, and some of the stuff was working, some wasn't. And then, like I said, today brought me from this point to the next point. And so I'm, you know, I want to go out strong. So, you know, I'll I'll take that over the here are my index cards. Let me outline this, right? Totally. Yeah, I love this.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Yeah, so and a similar story I have to tell you real quickly. So my first three novels didn't sell. I got told my heroes were too weak, etc., etc. I read this a photos guide to Israel, and they were talking about this thing called Jerusalem syndrome, just kind of attaching it to the religious aspect of what you were talking about, where it's a real syndrome. I mean, like maybe 20 people in history have ever had it. People go to Jerusalem and they get so overwhelmed by the religious significance of that city that they go temporarily insane. Um, and they, you know, they start preaching gospel, they just really out of character. They get home and they're fine. It's a really bizarre thing. And so I thought, like, what if what if you got home and you weren't fine? And so my very first book that sold was about a serial killer with Jerusalem syndrome who was convinced he could bring about the second coming of Christ if he found the right people to crucify. So he just went on a journey seeing signs and things and crucifying people. And that book started with my villain too, because I was obsessed with the villain. I'm like, I love this guy, he's so interesting. And that was the first book that sold.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yeah, no, that that's that's that's like right up my alley. That you know, that's that's exactly you know, that's the kind of that's that's the way I think you and I have sort of similar genes, you know, mentally, because that's exactly the way you go, Oh, what happens if he hasn't stopped? What what what happens if the syndrome hasn't stopped and he comes back and now let's take it to this next. And so, yeah, and that's yeah, we we we arrived. That was my first book, that was your third book or your fourth book, but we arrived this pretty very, very arrived on the same train. We might have been in different compartments, but we arrived on the same train.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

And I think all authors are, you know, all novelists are these what if kind of people, but when you start looking at suspense and thriller and horror authors, that what if always is in our head is like always goes to the worst possible scenario. And I don't know why our brains work like that. I'm very convinced it's this Youngian psychology shadow work kind of like we're processing you know our own dark thoughts through our literature. I don't know what it is, but my what if is always like a really horrifying what if.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Well, I think I think I I think I think our what-ifs, I ironically, probably have as much to do with technical structure than anything. Our what ifs are great because we know the higher the stakes, the more interesting the story. That's just it. Also, it's more it's more to me, it's more technical. It's like we do a what if to go here because we know if we go here, it's a compelling story, right? If you only what if it here's safe, then you you you know, but if you go here and you're like, okay, um, this guy comes back to the world and it's not a temporary thing, it's a permanent thing that he does. So what do you do? We're just raising the stakes of that original concept. And I think, you know, my mentor, my late mentor used to always tell me, you know, you're only as interesting as the problems you're trying to solve. Oh, that's great. I love that. So I think what we I think we set up some big problems to solve, but that's what makes them in it a compelling book.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

I think so too. And I think filler thriller writers, especially aspiring authors, need to understand those stakes don't have to be the world's going to end. Because I think a lot of people think, well, though that's a big stake, but that doesn't make it an interesting story. My what if is usually the stakes for one person, but if they're interesting enough and you connect enough with that character, they become your stakes. And that then it becomes a character study, and that is harder to do, I think, but I think it's to me, it's more interesting. Um, than you know, there's going to be a dirty bomb that goes off in New York and millions of people are going to die. That can be interesting too.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

Well, it's personal, is the more you're invested in character, like you know, um, The Godfather is my favorite film of all.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

100%.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yeah, and so you look at you look at all of the um more uh global, the bigger, the bigger uh external stuff that he's doing, that Michael Corleone starts doing. It's horrible. He he does this, he does that, he kills his sister's husband, it does some horrible things. One of the most heartbreaking moments is the very end, is when he lies to his wife. Right. So that the crime of lying and shuts the door in her face, right? The crime of lying to the wife becomes as if not more tragic than the killings, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Because you can relate to her POV there, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:07

And you realize because what you realize when you do great character development, and I think that that the reason that that film is my favorite is because they they were hitting on, they were firing on all pistons, as far as I'm concerned. But what you realize is that we're witnessing the selling of his soul. And so as opposed to like killing is bad, you know what I mean? That's that's horrible, but that's much more external, that's in your face, whatever. To quietly see this guy lying to his wife when he says, You can ask me this one time, no, I didn't do it, and we know he did, and we go, Oh, he now he is completely corrupted. So it depends on how one approaches character. Um, so you don't, it doesn't have to be this big global thing, right? Um, it is, you know, the you know, macro versus micro, micro versus macro. It is something that we care about him, we're rooting for him to he is our hero or our anti-hero, however you look at it. But at the end of the day, we don't want him to lose his soul. We don't want him in our minds, maybe okay, fine, he did what he had to do for the family. He's gonna go live a beautiful, legitimate life that he keeps promising her. And you realize in that moment, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

So right, and breaking bad is a modern day version of that.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

So yeah, I don't know if you ever read the book, uh, the nonfiction account, uh uh Take the Gun, Leave the Cannoli about the making of the Godfather and buying the the book rights and attaching Francis War Copla. Um, it's fascinating. It's if if you're into that kind of thing, I highly recommend that book. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

And that's that's the name of the book?

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Yeah, Take the Gun, Leave the Cannoli. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Well, Eric, we're gonna wrap up. Before we do, we're gonna do a quick storytelling of our own. I don't know if you were warned about this part, but it's a quick and Promptu storytelling storytelling. I have three books that I've chosen somewhat at random from my bookshelf. We're going to choose a book, choose a random sentence from a random page. I'm going to read that sentence, and that'll be the first sentence and maybe a two-minute long short story where we just alternate sentences back and forth until it just is so bad that we have to stop it. It's always a shit show, so it'll it'll be fine. Um, I've got JD Barker's The Fourth Monkey, uh Lisa Gardner's Kiss Her Goodbye, and Victor O'Reilly's Games of the Hangman. So choose one of those.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

Let's go with uh Lisa Gardner.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Okay, she is tremendous. Have you met her? She's great.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Uh I have no, not directly, no, but we've we we've actually exchanged uh uh uh social media stuff.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Yeah, she's a tremendous person. Um give me a page between one and three ninety-eight.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Give you a page between one and three ninety-eight?

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

Uh let's go 220.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Okay, so I'm gonna quickly scan 220. Um let me just find a sentence that I that might work here. There's a lot of dialogue. Um all right, I'm just gonna read this and you can do whatever you want with it. Um both men stare at me blankly.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Not knowing that I have a gun under my seat.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

I'm used to men making these kinds of assumptions about me. Maybe it's because I'm only five feet tall. Maybe it's because I barely weigh a hundred pounds. But the one of the biggest joys I ever get in my life is proving I'm a threat when no one thinks I am.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

They have no idea the pleasure that I get, the stalking, when they realize they're the ones being stalked by my small size, by my vulnerability, by my perceived weakness. And little do they know that these are all things that's going to ultimately do so much damage to them, and I am going to enjoy every single blood drop.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

The smaller one looks at the larger after they remove their blank stares and grins and mutters something under his breath. They're both very relaxed. I think they're thinking about what they're going to do with me first. In the meantime, I'm thinking about which one of them I want to take out first, which one I want to spend the most time with. I think the short one should live longest.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

It reminds me of one of my favorite movies with Arnold Schwarzenegger when he was holding Sully over. This was commando, and he said, Remember when I told you I was going to kill you last, Sully? I died. That's what I think of when I look at this short man. I want to tell him, I want to give him some hope, only to take it away from him in the most beautifully violent way.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Oh, I think we call it there. That was great. Does that bring you flashbacks to I'm sure you took uh you know acting classes, improv, yes, and yeah, yeah. It's hard with writing.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

No, I you know, but I mean you're great. So it's like now we're just playing tennis. I'm like, you're just I'm like, oh, he's setting me up, you know what I mean? So uh trying to do the same with you.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

So but isn't it great? Because you can't you just picture it like like I see her and I see the two guys, and I'm like, uh the confidence, you know, it's it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

Yeah, I I hope she doesn't sue us.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Hopefully, I don't, she's not that kind of person. Well, what a what a what a pleasure to to meet you. Hopefully, I'll see you at next year's Thriller Fest. Congrats on the upcoming launch with um with Source Books. And uh yeah, I hope I hope to meet you in person, Eric.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

Definitely. We'll we will meet, we'll see each other around the campfire at some point. Uh, this was this was awesome. So thank you. Oh, great.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

Thanks, brother. Take care.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

All right, take care, enjoy. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

All right, that is it. That is my conversation with Eric Lasle. We went a little dark on that storytelling. Uh, that that that that that woman was going to kick some serious ass. Beyond that, I think she was going to actually do some permanent damage, perhaps some fatal damage. So um, man, we had a little bit of a mind meld there. I loved it. Um as a reminder, Eric's new book coming out in September is Laws of Solomon. If you want to check out that book and all the other books in his series, head on over to his website, which is I americlasselle.com. Uh, Eric is E-R-I-Q, if you didn't already know that. Uh, and if you're interested in my new book, I hope you are. Check it out at carterwilson.com. And if you're thinking about pulling the trigger on heading to our Unbound Rider retreat in Paris, France, um, you can read all about that at unboundrider.com. And I would recommend not hesitating too long because after day one, we were basically half booked. Uh after our first announcement on the first day, um, about half of the retreat filled up. Um, so we expect that it's going to hopefully fill up, fingers crossed. Um, all right, that is it for now. That is it for this episode of Making It Up. It was a great one with Eric LaSalle. Uh, keep listening. There will be another episode out just next week. In the meantime, take care of it.