Ilja Zutt Fasten Packaging / How can Beauty packaging be sustainable?

https://fasten.nl/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ilja-zutt/
How is Fasten Packaging leading the charge to sustainable packaging in the beauty industry? 

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:15

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is my friend, Ilya Zutt , the managing director of Fasten Packaging. How are

Ilya Zutt: 0:24

you? Fine. How are you Corey? Thank you for having me. It's a great honor to be here also, so,

Cory Connors: 0:30

Oh. Thank you so much. Where, are you calling in from today?

Ilya Zutt: 0:35

I'm calling in from the Netherland. Oh, wonderful. Yeah. From a beautiful place called Horn. Very small, but yeah,

Cory Connors: 0:42

well, from the little picture I can see out the window, it looks like a beautiful place. And I can't wait to go to packaging Europe. They'll have their big event in the Netherlands in November my friend Tim Sykes has asked me to come and I think I'm gonna try to make that happen. Have, is that a show that you go to?

Ilya Zutt: 1:04

No, not this specific show. We basically exhibit in yeah, worldwide, in Europe, basically in three shows. BCD in Paris Cosmo, proa and Cosmetics business in Munich. But of course there are a lot of shows there still. But we have to make a selection. And in America, we are actually exhibiting makeup in la we just did. And makeup in New York will also will. Oh, wonderful. Yeah. So, but we have to be selective because we cannot split each other ourselves in

Cory Connors: 1:35

yeah, I totally understand. I, get asked to go to a lot of shows and like you mentioned, P C d Paris is one of my favorites, and you have to be selective. You have to choose the ones that you think will have the best bang for your buck and that will get the right exposure for your brand and all those things.

Ilya Zutt: 1:54

Yeah. We visit, of course, a lot of shows also to get inspired. Design shows our team of engineers also going to different kind of shows, sustainability shows and everything. So there's a, lot of information to absorb from the markets.

Cory Connors: 2:10

That's a great point. I think a lot of these events don't need to be ones that you present at. No. You can get a lot of value from just walking a show and experiencing that and speaking with the presenters at, other events. Well said indeed.

Ilya Zutt: 2:26

Yeah,

Cory Connors: 2:26

indeed. Let's talk about you and let's talk about your background a little bit. Where, yeah where'd you learn how to do this and how'd you end up in this role?

Ilya Zutt: 2:37

It's a quite a long road now. I have been in cosmetics for 20, no, almost 20 years. Oh wow. So that's it's quite a long time already. Yeah. I started at a filling company as a buyer focusing on packaging also there. So I learned there all the techniques and all the backgrounds of the whole packaging industry. And all the buildup and everything. And also advantis also there. I also knew about the filling process. Yeah, basically learn two parts of the process. And then I joined Fast in 27, no, 2016, I have to be correct, sorry. As a buyer. Also did a sidestep set up the turnkey business for the company, within the company also, and moved back to this position 20. So did a lot of background already in production. Seen a lot of factories, seen a lot of techniques, and yeah. Learned a lot during these these few, these years. Yes.

Cory Connors: 3:44

Makeup is, seems to be a, niche that people don't leave. When I, no, when I talk to them. Yeah. It's

Ilya Zutt: 3:51

a small, it's specific. Specific, yeah. It's a really small world. I'm actually going to Bologna. It was. No, my first time was in 20 no, 2006 when I was the first time alon. And from this part, I never missed a show at that time because only due to Corona. But you see the people moving around in the industry, you always see the same faces already moving from company. But yeah, we also, it's one of our key points as we say, also within first packaging is our passion and. It is our passion. It's also my per personal passion because it's so diverse, it's so wide. There's always so much dynamic. Yeah, I love this world. That's wonderful. I will never see myself something doing something else. No

Cory Connors: 4:40

I hear the passion in your voice and Yeah, and it, inspires me a lot of people I interview. Yeah. Well, I would say most people are very, excited about what they do. I think that makes the world of packaging very unique in this world of business. Let's talk about fast and packaging. What, what makes you unique? What kind of things do you make and how does.

Ilya Zutt: 5:02

Yeah. What makes us unique? We are actually a supplier of, cosmetic packaging, of course. We work a little bit different than regularly packaging suppliers because we look at a total picture we can we have in-house a lot of capabilities where we can serve also wide range of customers. And also look at the, problem basically. Behind the request because the request is just a request. However, we can, we have also three different market approaches. We have a, we call this standard bespoke innovation, and we can do basically everything. And that's also makes it difficult because we can deliver everything is that we can also we can always settle for for a customized solution to the.

Cory Connors: 5:58

Very good. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, I important to be able to accommodate those needs and to yeah, to look at the, real root of what these people are trying to do and, sounds like you're really good at that.

Ilya Zutt: 6:14

Yeah. Yeah. And also one of our, a few of our drivers is of course innovation. That's one of our important driver that we always look outside the box because we are really innovative driven always. We have twice a year. We have an innovation showcase also, and already looking nuts like next year, but already looking the future where yeah, where the market will go through. So already looking in sometimes impossible solution, make it happen. So also the entrepreneurship here sustainability. Is, key in everything. What we do really make a standoff course also in this to, to make sure that what we do, we believe, And also have the same passion to our customers to, because we are, we walk to walk, how do you say? How do you say this? Talk? The talk. Walk to walk. Yeah. Yeah. I dunno how That's it. Especially, sorry.

Cory Connors: 7:06

That's as, as Amer American as it gets. I love that. Yeah. And well done. Thank you for, mentioning that. Yeah. Let's talk about sustainability cause this is the Sustainable Packaging Podcast. What is, what does it mean to you? It means a lot of things to a lot of different people. I'd love to know your, thoughts

Ilya Zutt: 7:24

on it. No, sustainability is basically, yeah. It is the new standard. There you cannot sustainability is actually everything. It's so wide. Of course you can do it in your, as a company, you can be sustainable as a company. And we have the whole series, our policy also behind this, but also in our offering. And the whole approach and the whole, we breathe. We have to breathe it also to say, okay, yeah, this is what we stand for. This is what we are. So basically, when we do our offering, also, we make sure that one of our targets, and actually also last year we also make it, is that we also said our sales, 95% of our offering needs to be sustain sustainable components. And we always work through the different Rs. We say reuse, reduce, refill, recycle and even if customers. Yeah, request this. We always have an active approach to say, okay, dear customer, you have now requested, for example, a normal PT bottle, but you can also re do this in recycled p e t. Make sure you like that. This we can also do and that's of course part, we have an in-house engineering, so if new product development department or ND departments and we have their engineering and designers. So it's a good combination. We have it in-house. Because sustainability is not limited to only the luxury bands. And it's also not always need like high innovations. No, even mass markets can do innovation and can do sustainability. So, In all our approach to the market, we say we don't want any greenwashing. We want to be honest because yeah, we want, we stand some for something and there are a lot of materials in the world. And of course everybody do their own thing in this. But we say of course, yeah, you have certain materials that are plastic will always be. But we have to make sustainability basically the new standard or is the new standard

Cory Connors: 9:36

already. Right. It's, what I'm hearing from you is it's no longer optional.

Ilya Zutt: 9:42

No, it's no longer optional. And also for us, also with the team here, with the team and, the global team, it is no option anymore. Right. When we are also on the show, we are really also there if. No, it's even if you talk with the customer we had a request last week, very good example. And it was like, okay, basically we don't want to offer like this, we will offer like this, and this because we want to guide the customer. And we have a lot of different customers in our portfolio with all different kind of levels and all have their different level of sustainability. Because some are really going completely green and, in this way. But then still we will be honest in. Good.

Cory Connors: 10:24

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, the key to this whole thing, right? Is, saying, To the consumer, look, this is what this material is, this is what you can do with it. At the end of its life, it's reusable, or it's recyclable or it's it's made from high post-consumer recycled material, whatever the case may be. I love that, the word honest. You use that several times and it's so key.

Ilya Zutt: 10:52

Yeah. We also we, have a lot of internal discussions also about different kind of materials and we see a lot of different kind of materials in the world. And, I don't want to how do you say this, offend anybody using this kind of materials, but yeah, there's so much marketing materials. You have bounded ocean plastic and I think, yeah. No it's, a, there's an overall greenwashing of, materials and we have to be clear to the customer, clear to the end consumer what is actually and, also guide them and yeah, educate them how to use the product, how to recycle the product, and also be honest and open the transparency.

Cory Connors: 11:42

Yes very, true. Very well said. There's a lot of kinda wishy-washy statements being made. Like back in the day you and I have both been in the industry a long time. It was green. It was, yeah. Environmentally friendly. It was. You'd put a green leaf on it and it's fine. Yep. Yeah. Every, everybody's

Ilya Zutt: 12:05

happy. Everybody make their own logo and everything in there. It's true. Completely true. But then when you read carefully, it's like 1% is actually like green. Yeah. Yeah. No,

Cory Connors: 12:17

we don't like this. Well I think you're right, and I think a lot of the, brands are, making drastic changes, which is exciting.

Ilya Zutt: 12:25

Absolutely. Yep. Would, did you

Cory Connors: 12:26

see that? Yeah, Absolutely. Let's talk about. Let's talk about some of these European Union rules. How have these brand new laws and, rules affected how you and your company go to market with materials

Ilya Zutt: 12:46

now? Basically the guidelines it great that they have the guidelines. Absolutely. Because it's also a standard that they have been setting for a lot of things. Personal for me, I would say put them a little bit higher. Because it's, yeah, because it's quite they're quite still that I think. There's still a lot of direction to go in there. As a company we say, no, there's a guidelines and it's good because you will there will be an honest competition in the end. However, as a company, we say we'll go even in one step further because it's not because of the guideline is there? No, because we want it as a company. The guideline is only a guideline for me to say. Okay. Thing to keep the market stable and to, keep it away. But yeah, for us, we say the bar is even higher and it's actually in all our offering, what we do already in the whole innovation showcase we just presented under Cosmo of the last Innovation showcase. There was one concept completely from now. We have also, our customers are increasing demands for first really focus on plastic free . We are also discussing with them, One hand, in some case you can go plastic free. And because of use of materials that can be endlessly recycled of course, but plastic will also always be there. So we have to find a way because you can find sustainability in so many different ways. But if you look at the innovation showcase, we have one concept, completely plastic free, completely made a skin car jar of metal, one hand focusing on the solids formulation, sort of wireless formulation. So, There. Yeah. I think when I look at the market now and the market within 10 years, and I had a discussion with a customer, it was really nice discussion also, and they said, we have to define the new luxury. And I think, yeah, and it's actually what it is, the new luxury. Now it's really high and it's, really, when you look at the rents, it's gold and it's heavyweight materials and it's, but the standard will be different and I think the EU legislation will help doing that and pushing people to make. The whole world change to change. Yeah. So not only, I think it helped to make the world change instead of only as a company. Yeah.

Cory Connors: 15:13

Wow. That's such an important point. Yeah, sure. When, you receive a product and you feel like it's a lot of thought has gone into the packaging, it's heavy. It, is feels like you've, bought you. A lot and you've earned it. And oftentimes the packaging is more expensive than the makeup inside of it. Which a lot of consumers aren't aware of. True. But, you're right. That that needs to, change. And it's a mindset, sh mindset shift seems like chicken,

Ilya Zutt: 15:46

basically. It still can be that you say, okay, I make my, we call this mother pack. Really nice, really expensive. Make, sure that's the refill, that there's a refill there. That also, and that's why we went, when we make a refill, it's not like because we make a refill. No. We always take into account easy to use as a consumer, easy to. Change the refill in the mother pack because sometimes you have, you as a consumer, you have to do most, so many steps. It's so difficult that you're like, okay, I throw everything away make it easy, accessible for the consumer, and I will be. We at first, and we are happy if basically the refill increase the so sale of the sales refill increase against the mother pack because then we did a good job because then consumers are triggered to buy the refill and the refill we make as thin as possible, and we make it a very good refill. And that you cannot use also for, of course for the retailer, not without the model pack. So it's all think that we think through to make sure that it's. To stimulate basically the consumer experience because that's also what we see with a lot of brands is that they're really worried about consumer experience. And yeah, we are also guiding them to show them No, you don't have to. Cons. Refill is not only like, only for the now do at home style brands. The really No. It's also, it can also be for luxury brands. Brands.

Cory Connors: 17:18

I agree. And. I think you're, exactly right. It it, will create a sense of loyalty amongst the customers. Do you feel like that it's actually gonna increase sales for brands that embrace this refill option? And I've, never heard it called Mother Packaging. I've heard it called parent packaging, but that makes total sense. Mother is a parent. But what, to explain this to what we're saying is you'll buy. Larger package once. Yeah. And that will be beautiful. It'll sit on your counter at home or, it can go with you too. Yeah. But then when you buy the next. Round you buy just what goes inside of that. That's what we're saying

Ilya Zutt: 18:03

now. Basically because you make the mother pack as attractive as possible, people at home will also feel a little bit like, okay, I don't want to throw this away. So you stimulate basically also buy the refill and to buy a refill that is much more sustainable because we are looking at the refill. Completely Mona material if it's possible, of course. And make it as, or if it's not possible to make it mona material. Make it easy to disassemble. Then we designed to, to disassemble the item that you can, as a consumer easily disassemble and, separate it in your streams in the waste stream. So we always have to think about the whole process. Yeah. So there's, yeah. And

Cory Connors: 18:47

the consumer experience and that interface of, how they're going to use the, item. Yeah. And, how they're going to be prepared with another refill in the drawer just to case. Yeah.

Ilya Zutt: 19:02

It has to be easy when you have a refill item. You don't have to take a. Cut it completely open because you want have a click and nice sound to have it easy. You don't, when you have a skincare item, you don't want to put in a dirty cup. Your fingers in there to take it. It has to be easy and accessible for everybody to do it. Little bits, we say it's idiot proof.

Cory Connors: 19:25

Yeah. And that's, yeah, that's it. That's exactly right. Yeah. It and consumers don't want to have a, complicated experience. I, can speak to that. I don't like it. Yeah. When it's, no, when it's confusing and I Too much talk about packaging all the time.

Ilya Zutt: 19:42

Yeah, no, but it's true. That's true. Yeah.

Cory Connors: 19:45

Well, let's talk a little bit about what's next for you. What, kinds of things are you seeing? What's the trend that you really like in packaging that's like, Ooh, this is cool.

Ilya Zutt: 19:56

Now there's of course a lot of trends now. The whole refill and everything, and the whole, I really think the, plastic free is a really nice trend to see, but also a very how do you say, challenging trends because. We work with one of the customers also on a plastic free range, but in the end you have to do some concessions. So at some point you have to make a plastic detox maybe but to see, okay, very consciously with the materials. On the other hand, when you look at packaging you see actually the trend of having less packaging. However, with the whole solid markets, with the waterless formulations, Yeah. And then to not be out within a few years, we always look at the consumer experience there to say, Hey, how's the consumer experience in this? And how can we make sure that we then focus, for example, on a refill. But then make the consumer experience, there, because now you see that a lot of brands. More luxury brands are looking like, oh yeah, solid's nice, but not for us because it's too much market and too the experience is not nice enough. The quality guide us what they can do. They cannot how do you say this? Capture their quality within, for example, water less formulation. But we are, for us now, the challenge is to make sure that we develop in packaging that you can capture this as you can make it luxury, but that you also can see the trend in this. Yeah. And there's of course the focus more on the mono materials if you are choosing for plastic monos recycle materials. So there's, yeah, there's a lot going.

Cory Connors: 21:40

It's kind of exciting, isn't it? I, feel like there's this buzz in the industry that people are excited to try new things. They're excited to, to move on to, like you said, mono materials. Yeah. Or maybe a recycling program where consumers will bring back the Yeah. The packaging to the store. Very exciting.

Ilya Zutt: 22:01

Yeah, we also like, it's all about what you see more and more where you really have a trend and, you still have with e-commerce looking at packaging, but we can make sure that you don't like half an over cap or something. Make sure that it's also e-commerce friendly, but also for a lot of customers. Have the, experience to, for example, we work now on a concept where you have a refill in store. To have this complete consumer experience also there because Yeah. We have this kind of different customers also there. Right.

Cory Connors: 22:34

Do you think that consumers would be nervous to do refill in the store?

Ilya Zutt: 22:41

No, not any. Yeah. For in store There is, we are still the. I will be honest, that's refill is completely adopted already. You see Now also the mass markets you see it already in the, food industry, in the cleaning industry. It's already so common. You see it now in cosmetics started of course with the hands, lotions and this kind of things. But you see it now in creams. You see it in cosmetics and everywhere. So in an even must market. So there, it's already the adoption of the mus the, consumer is actually already there. Refill in store. You see it already a lot of developments. For example, Europe in Germany. Also with the whole refill in store with the refill stations, there's actually really big movement going on. But it's not adopted yet by the maas. But the total mass of consumers. If we have to be prepared, yes. Do we have to develop already for, now and we already have to think about the future? I think we have to think about 20, 25 until 2020 2030. That's actually our goal already when we develop or we have to be a ahead always. So we have to think. Okay. Yeah. We have to predict the future in some points.

Cory Connors: 23:58

That's it. You have to be thinking what if and yeah. And be prepared for. We don't wanna say worst case, we wanna say just the extreme circumstance. You know what, yeah. What if this happens and the government says no more of this? Or what if that happens and consumers say, I don't wanna buy this kind of packaging anymore. No.

Ilya Zutt: 24:22

We have to be prepared, and that's why we already take the the steps in there to say, okay, some materials are just already from our list band and if we use it, you have some, yeah. Some bad plastics already completely out that we say we can, you have, like for example, there's a material acrylic, I don't know. Yeah. You know this. Yeah. It's very used in a lot of luxury brands. However, there's a very good alternative or. Recyclable. Recyclable or injection, p e t, it's and p e t. You can recycle of course again. So it can even be a hundred percent recycled injected pt. So the alternatives are there. So we always have acrylic, no, we don't want to offer any acrylic anymore. It's actually out. There's some materials that. You cannot completely replace yet. So there we looking for or for a material already in there to say, okay, let's at least please do it like this. Or try already with when a customer wants to change to say, okay, we can offer this. Or to go do Mo already making the steps.

Cory Connors: 25:32

Well, thank you for the work that you're doing. It's very impressive and I'm very thankful to, to have gotten to speak with you today. Yeah. How do people get in touch with you and your company? What's the best way?

Ilya Zutt: 25:45

Best way nea. We are of course, on different fairs. There's actually normally our sales team there who can serve of course. And we have a office in in nl. We have an office in Paris and we have an office in, U S USA also. And we have our general email address can always be in contact. It's sales something. I don't know. Oh, that's

Cory Connors: 26:08

okay. I'll look it up and

Ilya Zutt: 26:09

I'll put it in the show notes for you. Sorry. No and, of course we have a very great team behind us. We have, and that's actually also our strength. We have the in-house N P D team. We have a great sales team who have a lot of experience in their they guide you through the whole process and everybody is connected. Make sure to also serve our customers because not only sustainability is also the whole service. And yeah, basically delivering the right option to the consumer to the final customer. That's

Cory Connors: 26:41

it. Yeah. Well done. Thank you. And I hope to see you at P c D Paris in January. Absolutely. Next year.

Ilya Zutt: 26:48

Yeah, absolutely. Then let's ha, let's meet up then also we'll plan

Cory Connors: 26:52

on it. Well, thank you so much. Oh yeah. This has been really fun and great to get to know you. Thank you

Ilya Zutt: 26:58

for your time. Thank you for your help. Okay. Thank you very much. Bye-Bye.