IPPO President Lindy Hughson

What is the https://www.ippopress.org/

An exciting announcement from the President of the International Packaging Press Organisation that Cory Connors is the newest member of the IPPO! 

I'm honored and so thankful to be a part of this great organisation. 

Lindy Hughson is the president of the IPPO and this is a well deserved honor for her. I truly enjoyed our discussion and her wisdom. Stay tuned for more details about this group and how I'll be participating with them at events. 

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:15

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is my friend, Lindy Hughson. She is the president of the I P P O, which is the International Packaging Press Organization. How are you, Lindy? Hi. I'm great. How are you, Corey? Good. I'm honored to have the president of the I P P O on here, and we had a great conversation, a few weeks ago about what the I P P O does, and I'm looking forward to getting into that with you. But first of all, let's talk about your background a little bit. First, how did you get into to packaging

Lindy Hughson: 0:50

well into, packaging journalism? I landed into this happy place. When I was first working, I just started out, I was actually trained as a teacher, in English literature and geography. My, my degree was in human geography or social geography. and also in, as I said in English, but. I had a very good friend working on a packaging trade journal, and at the time she said, look, I'm off to study environmental science and go and work for an engineering company, but this job is right for you. Just drop everything. I know this is perfect for you. And I thought, Well, let me go and have a look and see and I never look back. It was just wonderful. I met at the time I was interviewed by Jill Laubscher. She worked in, this was in South Africa, Corey, that's where I, grew up and where I spent a lot of my adult life. she was at the time the editor. In chief of a group of journals for, a company in South Africa. And she said, alright, look, you don't have the traditional journalism training here, but I can see you can write and I can see you're interested. And she took a chance on me and she has. To this day been my mentor in the sense that I've always, I learned a great deal from her and I always look up to the example that she said she was a tremendous journalist in packaging. She was a member of ipo. You say I P P O, we say ipo. That's okay. Just because it's shorter. But she, for many years was the Secretary General of ipo, which is, something that, a position that I also held on the board. But to cut a very long story short, in 2004, I stayed working for those journals. I was looking at food, beverage, pharmaceuticals, cosmetics, everything to do with the manufacturing, but also importantly the packaging. So I had a really good grounding and I've seen over the decades, I can say now a lot of change. Yeah. And then in 2004 we moved to Australia as a family and I immediately, once I could start, once we'd settled and I started to look for a role, the first thing I did was to look for a publishing house that had a packaging journal, because I very clearly had worked out in my short break from work as we moved across countries that I didn't want to let go of packaging. And I do think it's something I've heard you comment on before yourself. Yeah, once you get into packaging, it is not something that you, get out. It's kinda, I agree, gets to your bloodstream, doesn't it? and

Cory Connors: 3:29

very much so.

Lindy Hughson: 3:30

Yes. So yes. I now have been in Australia for close on 20 years and have been working. In a publishing house. An independent publishing house that has several across several titles and, but still my passion and primary focus is my, is packaging.

Cory Connors: 3:49

that's amazing. And quite a background there and very impressive. Let's talk about ipo. And I'll say it right from now on, I promise Seth.

Lindy Hughson: 3:58

Oh no, that's good. Well, the funny thing is that when you become an honorary member of ipo, so for people like our immediate past president, Steven Petitti, he becomes a hip such, no, it's that we just joke around. But yes, the International Packaging Press Organization, which is. Almost 50 years old now, Cory. It's it started a long time ago when a group of packaging journalists at the time realized that they were. Regularly meeting up or bumping into each other at trade shows and at events, international events, and started what they call a friendly association. So it really was when they got together at places, at these events, they'd gather, have dinner, have fun, talk about things, packaging, and then it began to be something where they thought, hang on a minute, here we are. A collective that has so much knowledge and can really help industry as well with our knowledge. let's try to liaise with the industry and see what we can do. And they're started to organize things like inward missions or visits to factories or shows, trade shows liaising with the bodies that are organizing those trade shows. So that iJournalist could be invited. Funded, in some cases, part sponsored in some cases, to go and learn about more things packaging and to write about them and spread the word. So that's kind of in, in a loose way how the organization started and for many years it has continued along those lines. Over time becoming more of a, we've been trying to, the new board has been trying to steer it more towards not only a friendly association, which of course we are. And I can tell you Corey, I have made some of my very best friends in ipo. but we've also trying to. To work more on a professional level as well. And that is gonna be, as you've you mentioned, I am the IPPO president. I've just come into the role as a, as of inter pack. We have a three year cycle that we've been always had. At the AGM or the general meeting rather cause not annual, at inter pack. And that is where I was appointed this time. I'd taken over, as I said, from Steven Petitti who did a fantastic job and now my role is going to be to, Elevate the awareness around this association, Corey, and I'm hoping, that you as our very newest member. Wow. You have, the tribe has spoken. The members have voted. you were nominated by our good friend Tim Sykes from Packaging Europe. I seconded your nomination. The membership has voted, the board has supported, and you congratulations around you.

Cory Connors: 6:44

Thank you so much. What an honor.

Lindy Hughson: 6:47

Wow. I thought I'd surprise you with the, that's news now. And to say now our work begins, Cory, now.

Cory Connors: 6:55

Well, I am thrilled. I'm thankful. I know they're, the style of news that I provide is unique and newer to the organization, and, I hope that I can fit in with your current members and provide value. But you're exactly right. The times are changing. podcasting and, posting on li LinkedIn and TikTok and Instagram have become a form of media and journalism that is, absolutely, valuable to our community. And, It doesn't take anything away from the amazing publications that the other members work for. it just adds to it, I think, a different niche. So thank you so much, Lindy. Wow, you made my day. This is amazing. Well,

Lindy Hughson: 7:41

that's good. So, yes, Corey? So I did wanna say that our membership, is a grouping of people that do different things. So you like yourself. for the most part, they've come through the traditional. Media house style. And we have, among our group, some of the top media publications in packaging, which I'm really pleased to say. We have to mention just a few packaging, Europe packaging, world Packaging Digest packaging news, eco Plastics in packaging, packaging and print media. And, they come from South Africa from. North America from Europe, from England or the uk, Australia, of course, India, Japan, and so on. So we have a really wide grouping, a kind of an eclectic mix we can call it, and I'm really proud to say that, the quality of journalism, of course, also Scandinavian countries as well, the quality of journalism Is tip top, that we're seeing out there. But I do think it is supplemented definitely by, other forms of media and I certainly saw that when I was at inter how. How important it was for us to be, for my publication, which is PK and Packaging News in Australia, and also for in general, for IPO members, but for me as a journalist, to be on the floor interviewing live, getting those videos out there same day. so that people could feel those who weren't at the show could feel I am at the show. There was an immediacy to that reporting, the constant posting. I mean, it can become a, it can become, it can feel like a millstone around your neck, but, because you are having to be regular and frequent when you're trying to give that show coverage. we've done also from trade show floors, and I know you and your colleague Alio are going to be at, pack Expo with your Packaging today podcast. We have done in Australia, we started that with our OPAC trade show. So I think we were one of the first to have a livestream podcast from the show floor. Nothing fancy, but it just was that immediacy of it. We filmed or we broadcast 44 podcasts across a three day trade show. and it was just tremendously engagement that we to achieve. So I believe that journalism, as you said, when it comes to packaging or anything that we're doing, has entered that. Very new immediate era where we have to be aware that people consume their content in different ways. So they may, some might like to listen to it on a podcast this week and watch the video news bulletin next week, or read it as a story, or read it as a in the journal. And you have to try to cater to all those audiences. And so that's quite a big brief. For many of us who started out when we just had a magazine that was all to produce a monthly magazine.

Cory Connors: 10:43

Yes. incredible points. and I think you're right. We eve, each of us consumes, media in different ways. Some people like, long form, still print, magazines or newspapers, and that's okay. these are still great ways to look at, what's going on in the world. Or some people wanna read through an article on a website. Some people want an Instagram post that's got pictures. some people want a quick video on TikTok or LinkedIn, and you're exactly right. the videos that I, or the posts that I do. On scene, and I can speak to just recently being at Circularity 23 in Seattle, Washington. And, constantly posting about that with my, cohort Mr. Adam Peek who's also a podcaster and a good friend of mine, but that's what we did and we got so many, responses of, oh, thank you guys for posting. Thank you for telling us what's going on, because I couldn't make it, yeah. it's, it was hard for me to get to Seattle at the time, and I just had to had a conflict. So I think this is the future. We need to provide options. yes and. Sometimes I'll see the article in three different forms, and this one is the one I like to read the best. it's with Packaging Digest or, so I think you're exactly right. That's all I'm saying. So

Lindy Hughson: 12:05

I think also Corey, because we are working in an industry where the spotlight really is on it, for reasons, good or bad packaging is definitely in focus. and. What's happening and evolve the technology, the rapid pace of change, the constant development of new materials, and especially speaking in the space that you cover, which is sustainable packaging. Really, you have to be, live and onstream all the time, to be keeping pace with that information. And one of the things I did notice when I was going around the show floor at Inter Pack was there wasn't in the olden days, Because I, I'm a veteran now, but in the old days in the trade, and you go, wow. This is a thing I've never seen before. blows your mind on the spot on the trade show. Now this time for us journalists who are at the cold face of receiving that information and that's coming across our desk, you kind of go knowing what you're going to see, or you have, you are aware of it. For example, I think of a company like Pul Pack Dry Molded Fiber. Now. Yeah. In years past, I'd have gone and that would've been brand new technology. I knew about it, but how great was it that I could actually go and meet the founder? And this is the value of trade shows to go there, meet the founder, understand what his motivations are, understand what their vision is, see the product, touch it, feel it, that's the difference. And that's why, trade shows, I believe have a long life ahead of them.

Cory Connors: 13:36

Oh yeah. I agree. Yeah. It, the experience of the in-person event is, 10 times more valuable than the, virtual, although there was a lot of value and is a lot of value of virtual meetings and virtual, presentations, but you're exactly right. Getting to shake somebody's hand, getting to feel the product, getting to see it in person, getting to test it, getting to oftentimes watch the equipment work. and then have the engineers explain it along with the salespeople or marketing team is, it's an incredible experience. And yeah, I interviewed PLP Pack on my podcast a year and a half ago. And to get, if that's why I wish I could have gone to, to inter pack, that would've been awesome, to get to, to finally meet them in person. But that, for me, that's a lot of, the experience. Like I got to meet, the team from Sway that's making seaweed based packaging, yesterday. And I had interviewed her, six months ago. So, it's exciting to finally, close the loop.

Lindy Hughson: 14:39

Yes. And connect with all those people. So, you did say to me, so some of the high, you just asked me to talk about inter pack a little bit. Yes. And well, for me one of the key highlights was, Finally seeing some of my IPO colleagues again. So we had quite a broad contingent of journalists there. Not as many as we might have had in the past, Corey, because travel is so much harder these days. we've, we've come through the pandemic. I think there's an air of co, there's an air of caution around international travel, but also it's very expensive as well. So, but we did, we had a good solid group of at least. 25 plus of iJournalist. Obviously there are other journalists there as well. Covering from the media in Germany we had, A good interaction with the W P O. That's the World Packaging Organization and IPPO and the W P O have worked closely and we do align, but we are now going to work even closer going forward. So that's very exciting for me. the World Packaging Organization use the IPPO party, so we have an inter pack IPO party. Which is kind of a famous event. and it's supported by our partners, our sponsors. So we have y Chima, the Italian Trade Association that came as well. And, sidebar there, the Italian Machinery on Show was next level. And I saw some of that at epac email last year, which is the Italian trade show for packaging and processing. Really fantastic stuff. That's on show at was on show at Inter. Getting to that next level of automatization, digitization, and building in the sustainability of machinery. That was a strong trend, at Inter Pack that we saw that sustainability was overall the biggest trend. and that was linked into, and then automation and, digitization as well. But that was closely linked that the machinery manufacturers were not forgetting the sustainability side of it. In fact, it was a. Top of mind there. Anyway, I digress. I just wanted to mention inter pack party, our supporters, because that's quite an important aspect of IPPO , that we have these associations with associations like P M M I, organizer of P Expo. A pma, APMA, the organizer of Apex, which is the New Trade Show for the Australian and New Zealand region. Chima, the Italian body, oh gosh, I'm probably gonna forget somebody now. Fin Partners. Fin Partners, organizers, is a PR agency, but they work very closely with a lot of the bodies and with, so for instance, with P M I and also with Big. Companies like t n A solutions, I'm sure you're aware of. T n A, they had a fantastic stand. They had a, an extended reality experience on their stand. So you could go and put on the headset and go into a potato chip manufacturing and packaging, full line in operation. and that, that was, those were the sorts of things that made the experience of inter impact different. Where you can go, I know that's not new. Necessarily the augmented reality. But this was kind of really an exte, they called it xr, extended reality. Apart from seeing on their stand all the new equipment and having chats with people, there was also this experience. So I think, some of the show stands were really exceptional. Interesting signage around Corey. Lots of messaging around sustainability. Joy in the circular revolution. Right. all the messaging was around that goodbye plastic, which I thought was a little ill-informed. But anyway, yeah. And the other side of things, that was, and stop me cuz I'm probably babbling. I, I get so excited talking about it. Oh,

Cory Connors: 18:24

it's your show, my friend. You do it. I'm, so, I'm in awe of your wisdom, so keep it comfort. So the

Lindy Hughson: 18:30

materials development was also very interesting. So lots of, post-consumer recycled content options, so rpa, R P, et cetera, et cetera. Also paper-based products everywhere. Yeah. So giving that, especially also in the flexible space. People being very careful about how they worded their, paper only. So making care that there was a plastic barrier, and whatever that was. but we saw paper wrap, four letters, which you would normally have a flexible film around, all sorts of leading options and so on. The other interesting thing was where. Before we may have seen, styrofoam or e p s expanded polystyrene, there were options now for expand expanded poly propylene, which is easier to recycle. Yes. I dunno about your country, but certainly here, e p s we've got a little bit of recycling just starting up for e p s, but it really is, it's something we prefer not to see in certain applications for packaging. So yeah, it was, all around, Materials to moving to monomer as well. Mono materials, especially called flexible pouches, but the pouch isn't going anywhere. The pouch is still a very much preferred format.

Cory Connors: 19:49

Yeah. Well, and it's more sustainable. Yeah. We've done all kinds of LCAs in many situations, right? There's always caveats, but you're exactly right. And what a great recap, and I'll do what it takes to make sure to get to the next inter pack event so I can 20,

Lindy Hughson: 20:03

20 seconds. Cory, stop saving

Cory Connors: 20:05

your money. Yes, ma'am. I'm in, I'll start at piggy bank. I'll tell my wife. we gotta go. Well, you have to go.

Lindy Hughson: 20:11

it's your pa. It'll be your passion project now because, you'll need to be at the next IPO party and so on. Yes. Cory, I did or wanna speak to you about, cause I heard you and Ilio, if I might ask you this question. I heard you guys chatting about the paper bottle. Now, I'm across the whole thing with the absolute trial. the Boco bottle that's come out, which is really not that much paper. Versus plastic. Martin Moore and I understand what they're trying to achieve. They say I'm not knocking it. I'm just saying this has been called out all over the place, all over social media as greenwashing Now, yesterday in our market in Australia, we announced Frugal Pack is coming into Australia. That's a different concept and you know it, I'm sure. the frugal bottle, which is a 94% paper bottle with an inner. Pouch. Yeah. which is basically a wine bag, that we would have in a normal bag in box system. Right? Yeah. And, so my question is, you asked me whether you, whether I think reusable packaging is the way of the future now that's, It's certainly one aspect of it, but when I was speaking to Frugal Pack yesterday and what a, what an amazing team of people, it's really is an interesting product. I said, but what about the reality is that 5% of your, which is the bag, isn't going to be recycled. That will end up in landfill. so where do we draw the line with? Okay. This is still better than glass in some ways. Love glass, let's be clear, is reusable, is recyclable, very high energy to produce, et cetera, et cetera. We know the up, the, pros and cons, certainly. Should we, should we be pursuing these paper bottles, is what I'm. In a very long-winded way trying to ask

Cory Connors: 22:07

you. I think that's, it's a very long-winded topic. It's a very, it's a very confusing topic. the short answer is, I don't know yet, and I'm keeping open minded. A lot of people are shooting it down As fast as they can, saying this is ridiculous. It's greenwashing. But, because glass is so sustainable, it's such a sustainable option. but like you said, there are limits there of about 79% of glass gets recycled in Europe. less than 40% of glass gets recycled in the u s a. That's not very good.

Lindy Hughson: 22:42

I learned a fun fact yesterday. Well, maybe it's not a fun fact, but I learned a fact yesterday from Yeah. who is entering the North American markets, by the way, when did you talk to them? Yeah. Yes, you will. Definitely. I'll put you in touch. That's 70% of the us. USA's glass is imported from China.

Cory Connors: 23:02

Makes sense. Yeah. I didn't know that number, but, I got to interview, Scott, from the Glass Packaging Institute. And, brilliant man. he, we didn't talk about where the glass came from, but we did talk about the recycling rates and the shift to reusable glass. And, I think that's exciting. Yeah, I think there's a lot of very positive changes. I think extended producer responsibility will change, some of that, kind of mindset and, I think people will be willing to invest in, glass packaging if it is in fact going to get recycled or reused. we have a system here that we borrowed from the European culture, which is a reusable beer bottle, or cider bottle. Why aren't we doing that everywhere? Why don't we have a standard bottle that just gets reused or aluminum or glass and that's re reusable? so I think there's lots to be determined. we spoke yesterday at Circularity 23, put on by the Amazing Green Biz organization, about a national bottle bill that was brought up several times. And this is something I've been very interested in and excited about. Only 10 US states have bottle deposits. That's okay. That's ridiculous. when you institute a bottle deposit in the us we've done the math, it doubles recycling rates. So let's

Lindy Hughson: 24:26

do more of that. Not like that. You're also getting a very clean stream, clean collection stream. So I mean, I know that's something that here in Australia with container depo CDs, as we call the container deposit schemes, that has really helped. when we are building the infrastructure, For things like bottle to bottle recycling, which is happening here now for p e t, and to some degree now for H D P E infrastructures coming on stream to, to be able to have that clean material coming in straight from the c d s collection points just makes life so much easier for those recyclers. Yeah.

Cory Connors: 25:04

Well, and it saves consumers money in the long run. they're not having to pay, to get rid of waste. They're getting their money back for the deposit system. it's, you're right, everybody wins in that system and it makes for, a much more circular economy. So, But I do

Lindy Hughson: 25:19

think that, as you say, we have to keep an open mind about the pursuits because with packaging, of course, it's always about fit for purpose. Yes. And one material meets a purpose on one side and it doesn't on another. And it depends on the packaging, how far it ha on the product, the integrity that you have to maintain, how far it needs to travel. And the other side of it is packaging being so important for food waste, which is an enormous problem. And the course is far more damage to the environment than, packaging does, for instance. Very good. Of course, we've got, we've just had World Environment Day this week, Corey. So, there's been a lot of focus on beef plastic pollution and I think primarily keeping things out of landfill. I mean, sorry, out of the oceans, primarily keeping things out of the oceans is more important than. On some level, where does it might sound than worrying about whether it's gonna end up in landfill. So I spoke to this company, that had done this, installation to make a point on World Environment Day on, on Sydney's Bondi Beach, which is an iconic beach who may be aware of it. they had a, an arts statue, culture rather. Yes. Emoji poop. so it was a little bit confronting when you saw it, but it was seven, it equated to a seven and a half tons of plastic waste. I think they said seven and a half tons of plastic waste, which is what enters the world's oceans every 30 seconds. 80% of that comes from Southeast Asia region. And this company is working with groups to take ocean bound plastic and turn that into, a substance or a material called astic, which then becomes carrier bags and things like that we use for shipping and garment bags for clothing and so on. But I asked the question, so you are rescuing the plastic before it gets into the ocean. But in our region at the moment where we have a soft plastics recycling challenge, let's just call it that euphemism. Yep. That plastic that you've now created into a bag doesn't have an end of life. It will in a, in when our new recycling, advanced recycling systems come on scheme and soon, but not soon enough. So right now that is not going into the ocean, but it is going into landfill. And that's a case where you have to keep an open mind and say, well, what's the better choice? We need to get, keep the plastic out of the ocean, first and foremost.

Cory Connors: 27:52

Right? And you're designing for end of life and you're, it's all of the, it's all of the things that we talk about every day and focusing on not just. Okay, let's not put it in the ocean, but how do we put it into something that's gonna get reused? Or how do we put it in something that's gonna get recycled? this is the caveat and I think

Lindy Hughson: 28:13

exciting. The idea was that it would be recycled and it would be as soon as we have soft plastics recycling or flexible plastic recycling. system and we are very actively working on different curbside collection schemes, trialing those here in, in Australia, and I'm sure this is happening globally in various markets. So it's not just. Definitely going into landfill. I'm just making the point here that we have to think about all the, those, all the Rs, the reuse, the recycle, the ref refuse in some cases, like buy as much, and reduce. With in terms of our material choices when we, and our shapes and sizes when we are doing that packaging design. I'm not a packaging technologist, so I'm speaking very kind of loose and broad here, but I think another R might be reform or reframe the way we thinking about this. Yeah.

Cory Connors: 29:05

I've got a few. I, I printed out something that says the seven Rs of zero waste, and I look at it, it's right on my desk here, and it's refuse, reduce, reuse, recycle, rehome, replant and rot. So that, Is the kind of, the seven that they focused on. I like that. I like that there are more, like you said. Yes. Yes. And we can't just focus on just recycling or just, reducing. We have to look at everything. Yeah. Well said. Well, how are things, down there in Australia, today? Well,

Lindy Hughson: 29:40

it's now light because when you got me on so pitched out, sun is shining where I am in Sydney. we've had, we have had an exciting week. there's always, for me, everything's exciting when it comes to packaging. but I was just doing the news wrap, yesterday cause I do a video news bulletin after our e-newsletter has gone up. So Australia seems to be an attractive market for, international players. As I said to you, our lead story was Frugal Pack, entering our market. And oh, I did wanna add that Frugal Pack is not just the bottle system. They also, it comes with the machine that forms that bottle. So, ideally you don't want to be importing the stuff. You want to be making it in the local market. So at the moment, the model is, frugal Pack makes it, they've got a plant in Ewi Ipswitch UK and, packages and things get sent here it comes flat pack and then it gets formed. if you've got, so one of our, printing companies here is, has expressed openly and intent to purchase. So, and that would then cater to the 27 million bottles per annum demand that there is in Australia for that frugal pack. And this is primary called Wine and Spirits. they do package olive oil too. The other exciting thing is there's a company called Pack Tech. You might know them. A US company. They do recycled plastic handles for say, multi-packs of beer cans. Yes. Yeah. And it's H E P E that they're using. they announce their intent to set up shop here in Australia. Later, by later this year, they'll be able to make, they are setting up a contract manufacturing facility and. Have a proprietary partnership relationship with Vizi. You would know Vizi of course. and I think that's because Vizi is collecting and recycling H C P E here. I haven't got, I've reached out to them to ask them, gimme the actual terms of this relationship, but. press releases, say one thing, but I, but the, some of the answers that I've got back, it seems to me, so they're setting up contract manufacturing here. They'll be able to process onshore. So that's the main thing, is getting things processed, made, recycled. Collected in Australia. Recycled in Australia. Manufactured in Australia. That's what you want to have or substitute country name. where possible in order to not have these goods, traveling all these distances and racking up the carbon

Cory Connors: 32:06

miles, Yeah, I know Pac Tech well, I've visited their factory. It's in Oregon here. Just, an hour and a half south of where I live. And, they're recycling and reusing, H T P E, milk bottles and old Pac Techs in a way that's very impressive. So. That would be an exciting addition to your recycling, stream. Well done.

Lindy Hughson: 32:27

Yeah. So those are two highlights from this week here in

Cory Connors: 32:30

Australia. Amazing. Well, we might have to make this a monthly or bimonthly session with you and, we'll check in about, IPO and all the things going on with our group that I'm honored to be a new member of. Thank you. Well,

Lindy Hughson: 32:44

Corey, we welcome you, and you and I will be talking more and more about things that we can do together to help raise awareness around ipo, to talk about sustainable packaging, your passion, and I hope that I will see you at Pack Expo. That would be my plan. Oh yeah,

Cory Connors: 33:02

let's plan on it. I'll be there for sure. And, Yeah, we'll, we'll have an exciting, maybe we'll do a podcast, live there or something. we'll certainly make some content to share with the world about what we're doing there at, pack Expo in, Las Vegas, Nevada. Well, thank you so much, Lindi. This has been amazing. again, I'm, very excited to be a member of your great organization and congratulations on, being elected to the president. title. That's a very impressive, role for you and well deserved. I know. and if you're listening, I'd like to, make sure that you subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss the next episode. And I'd like to thank Orora Packaging for sponsoring. Thank you again, Lindy. Appreciate you. Thanks Corey.