Can you teach kids today to tackle social issues - and make it fun? (Hint: Think protest songs from the 60s.)

Sesame Street changed TV by using music to help kids learn how to spell and how to share. Singer-songwriter Anya Rose and the group Ants on a Log write social action songs to help children in primary school learn edgier lessons, about problems from environmental pollution to racist and sexist behavior - inspired in part by 60s satirist Tom Lehrer. After hearing these tunes, the 9-year-olds in your family might feel inspired to research a problem in your own neighborhood - and then write your members of Congress about it! 

Transcript

Sesame Street changed TV by using music to help kids learn how to spell and how to share. Singer-songwriter Anya Rose and the group Ants on a Log write social action songs to help children in primary school learn edgier lessons, about problems from environmental pollution to racist and sexist behavior - inspired in part by 60s satirist Tom Lehrer. After hearing these tunes, the 9-year-olds in your family might feel inspired to research a problem in your own neighborhood - and then write your members of Congress about it! 

(Note from Dave and Danny: We’ve made minor edits to cut out some of our guests' stutters – and ours too!)

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Hi. I'm Daniel ZWERDLING. 

DAVID SHIPLER: And I'm David Shipler. TWO REPORTERS start now. 

[Theme music]

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Hi, Dave. 

DAVID SHIPLER: Hi, Danny. How you doing? 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Great, thanks. And here's our mission today: We’re going to hear music with a message - music with a social message. And our guest writes them specially for kids.

DAVID SHIPLER: Anya Rose, welcome. 

ANYA ROSE: Thanks so much for having me, I appreciate it. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Anya Rose, you are part of a music group called Ants on a Log. You guys perform and record in Philadelphia, where you're based, but you also perform in other cities. And I know you perform at schools and community festivals and libraries - right so far? 

ANYA ROSE: Yeah, exactly. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Okay, and without further ado, let's hear the beginning of one of the songs your group has recorded. I love this one: It's called “They're My Best Friend,” and it's about getting rid of gender stereotypes. 

[MUSIC by Ants on a Log Their favorite game is Monopoly. Unless it takes 17 hours (17 hours!) Then they prefer finger paint (finger paint!) as long as there's time before bed for a shower. (When’s shower time? It’s 8 p.m. Okay, fine.) Their name is Alex, like Alexander or Alexandra - except without the Ander or Andra at the end. Yeah. There is no Ander or Andrew at the end. They're just Alex. And they're my best friend. Just Alex. Got it. ]

ANYA ROSE: Julie wrote “They're my best friend” as the first - well, it ended up becoming the first song that got national airtime with they/them pronouns. So that was pretty exciting. People can have lots of different factors to them, and their pronouns are just one part of their identity. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: It's a lovely song. And we're delighted to say that another guest is joining us, Sam Papas. 

SAM PAPAS: Heyyyy. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: In the interests of full disclosure, I should say that Sam and I are related. His grandfather was my cousin. So, Sam, thanks for coming. 

SAM PAPAS: Yeah, thanks for inviting me over. 

DAVID SHIPLER: Sam, you're right in the target group that Anya and her band compose for. How old are you exactly? 

SAM PAPAS: Uh, well, I'm 11. Fifth grade. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Although going into sixth grade in the fall. 

SAM PAPAS: Yeah.

ANYA ROSE: I love fifth graders. Fifth grade is such a great time because it's just like a great little point of age where kids are really, like, able to explore complex issues and also have a little humility still. 

DAVID SHIPLER: You know, Anya and Sam, Danny and I are both old enough to remember when music had a social purpose. The civil rights movement, “We Shall Overcome,” anti-war songs and so forth. 

[MUSIC by Country Joe and the Fish And its one, two, three, what are we fighting for? Don't ask me, I don't give a damn. Next stop is Vietnam, and it's…]

DAVID SHIPLER: More recently, we've all seen Sesame Street, I think, and they sing great messages about building friendships, self-confidence, picking up trash. But what grabs us about your songs, Anya, is that they're a bit edgier. And in fact, some of your music teaches children in elementary school how to organize around important social problems like pollution, combating corporate greed, lobbying members of Congress, and that kind of thing. So, we're going to listen to some and get Sam's reaction to some of them, too. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Sam, just hold on, we'll get back to you in a moment. But Anya, you were nodding your head as Dave was saying all that. 

ANYA ROSE: Yes. Sesame Street was a big influence to me as a child. I remember watching their segments and then later learning that they were designed to be kind of like commercials that - the developers of Sesame Street noticed that kids got these short segments that were commercial jingles in their head, and memorized them. And they said, “Well, why can't we do that with the alphabet and learning to count?” I loved how they used these short little songs that kind of got stuck in your head, but were also educational. So, for us in Ants on a Log, we also try to have these songs that - we don't quite do that part on purpose, but - they do end up getting stuck in your head. And so why not have the stuff that gets stuck in your head be positive messages?

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Sam, you want to add something?

SAM PAPAS: Your comment about kids memorizing jingles from ads is true, because everyone in my school has memorized the Burger King jingles and has made up eight up alternate versions. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: And I read on your website that one of your influences was also listening to Tom Lehrer. Your stepfather used to play a lot of Tom Lehrer’s satirical songs. 

DAVID SHIPLER: We should probably explain to listeners who Tom Lehrer was. Tom Lehrer was a satirist who made fun of all kinds of, you know, very important things in the society and had a good social message. Was it the content or the music? I mean, what was it with you that drew you to Tom Lehrer? 

ANYA ROSE: Yeah, Tom Lear was a huge influence of mine. My dad and my stepdad had so many records, and one day I found Tom Lehrer's album. “That Was the Year That Was.” I think it was from 1965. I’m not sure, actually. 

[MUSIC by Tom Lehrer The white folks hate the black folks, and the black folks hate the white folks. To hate all but the right folks is an old established rule. But during National Brotherhood of Week. National Brotherhood…]

ANYA ROSE: I must have been about 10 or so at the time when I discovered that album. First, the music was just really catchy and fun, and I could tell that it was funny, but I didn't quite know what it was about. And so I learned the lyrics before I learned what some of it was about.

[MUSIC by Tom Lehrer Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics, and the Catholics hate the Protestants, and the Hindus hate the Muslims, and everybody hates the Jews. But you’re in …]

ANYA ROSE: And so that is part of the experience I want to give to kids at times. Like, they might learn a song when they're eight years old and then suddenly they're singing it when they're 12. Or humming it absentmindedly. And they suddenly know, “Oh, that's what the EPA is.”

[MUSIC by Ants on a Log Lots of factories are built right next to rivers and to streams, and all the waste that they create can't just be thrown into the water. The EPA makes sure they keep it clean. EPA…]

ANYA ROSE: I thought, you know, I don’t think people actually know what the EPA is! What’s that?

SAM PAPAS: I was mouthing, “I know what it is.”

ANYA ROSE: Oh, you know what the EPA is? What's the EPA? 

SAM PAPAS: It stands for either Environmental Protection Act or Environmental Protection Agency. 

ANYA ROSE: Yes, the Environmental Protection Agency. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: One of the things about your songs that really strikes us is that you don't scold. You don't say, “you should not pollute!” Your songs are all upbeat and they're funny. 

ANYA ROSE: Yeah, exactly. That's like a huge, huge, huge, huge part of what I want do. 

[MUSIC by Ants on a Log Well, I own a factory. (You do?) Yes. And you know, I only dump 10 cloppydyglobfulls of mucketymuck in the river every day. (Mucketymuck every day? Oh, my gosh. That's, that's a lot.) Well, I don't, I don't think that's a lot. (Hmmm, that's a lot.) No, it's not. That's…]

DAVID SHIPLER: That's a great song. That's a great song.

ANYA ROSE: As a songwriter and also as somebody who works with kids, I mean, if you want somebody to not do something, tell them that they should do it. Humor is the only way that you're going to get through. It's almost like the court jester whose job is to bring these serious things to light. 

SAM PAPAS: Yeah. I wanted to say to your comment about not beating people over the head with it, that's like soft power kind of vibes. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: What do you mean by soft power? 

SAM PAPAS: Like not forcing it or pushing it on to someone, and like telling them, like, Hey, maybe instead of saying “Do this!” or “All this stuff is going to happen!” you're saying in your songs, “Well, if you do this, it will help.” And you'll probably get a more positive response from, like, people who can change things - like government figures and other people in power. 

DAVID SHIPLER: That sounds like you're saying also that a positive message - that is, what you can do - works better than a, you know, alarmist “sound the bells and whistles and the horns, and we’re going to really go down the tubes.”

SAM PAPAS: Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying. You want to give some kind of warning, but you don't want to be like, “It's inevitable!” or something like that. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Anya, it sounds like you and Sam are on the same wavelength. 

ANYA ROSE: I'm always so impressed with the next generation. I think they get it. They get it. I'm impressed that you had this word, “soft power.” I didn't know that before, so that's great. That warms my heart. I love hearing that, Sam. So thanks for sharing. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: And Anya, what prompted you to write “The EPA song”? Was it something specific or…

ANYA ROSE: Yeah, I wrote that when Trump was in power and he was cutting all these governmental programs, and a lot of people didn't really understand what the EPA did - and didn't realize what a big deal it is that something like that would be cut, and also what a big deal it is, and how amazing it is, that we have a branch of the government that does what the EPA does. So I wrote a song just explaining what it does. And the song is kind of kooky and silly, but it's also just something that people can look back to and, you know, maybe learn something. 

[MUSIC by Ants on a Log EPA, the referee in the game of life, fighting for the Earth…]

SAM PAPAS: I think that referee thing is pretty good, because a lot of kids watch sports, a lot of kids play sports. A lot of kids are familiar with what referees do. And I think the, sort of, dialogue kind of thing about dumping stuff in water - I think that's a really good sort of way to show what the corporations and the factory owners think they're doing, and what they should be doing, and what they're not doing. 

ANYA ROSE: Oh, my gosh, I love this kid. I guess my main thing is that I want kids to know that there's a whole interesting way that the government works. I guess, like, when you hear the word “government,” what do you think of? 

SAM PAPAS: Well, I think of a mixture of pride and anger. The government can at times be a sort of protecting force, but it can also be just a bunch of squabbling, white men in a big building. 

ANYA ROSE: Right. Government can get a bad rap when things aren't working functionally. But also the government is us. The government is the people. We are the government. 

SAM PAPAS: Yeah, that's the sort of the sort of way democracy rolls - meaning it can change. Nothing is really certain with democracy. The people can choose what the government does by taking individuals and making sure that those individuals can get to a seat of power, not just by, like, doing something for someone or just having a lot of money. 

DAVID SHIPLER: I just wanted to reintroduce our guests. Sam Papas is a fifth grader who is a really a bright kid. We can tell. And Anya Rose is with ants on a log, which does great music for kids addressing social issues

DANIEL ZWERDLING: And speaking of democracy, Anya and Ants on a Log have created a really fascinating, I mean, to me, very unusual musical. It's called “Curious.” What it teaches is that kids, number one, can recognize problems. Number two, they can start organizing around those problems and doing research around the problems. And then they can actually lobby members of the government to try to solve the problems. 

ANYA ROSE: So we were trying to figure out what we wanted our musical to be about. And I was attending various protests in the city in the summer, including one by Philly Thrive, which is a group that is based in South Philadelphia. And their main goal was, at the time, to stop this oil refinery from expanding. It is one of the leading causes of asthma in the city. Anyway, this group called Philly Thrive was protesting it. So we ended up basing our musical on that. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: So let's start with a song from “Curious,” where kids are standing in line in the pharmacy because they've got coughs. 

ANYA ROSE: They’re having trouble breathing. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: And they're trying to get some medicine to feel better. 

[MUSIC Ants on a Log Taylor, it's not just you. (Whoa, yeah, all of these people are sick?) Hello, Person I don't Know in line. (Hello?) Are you getting an inhaler for your asthma, too? That's what I'm getting. (Taylor, you can't ask that!) Why, yes, I am. (Oh, you too.) I look around me and I see everyone is sick. They're tired, angry, sick and sick of it. They’re all lining up to see the doctor. But they don't know when. And when they leave, we see they have more bags of medicine. Is this normal? Is this how we're supposed to live? 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Sam, thoughts, please. 

SAM PAPAS: I think that it's a pretty good call out, because is it normal that kids have to go to a pharmacy to get medicine after school? They're supposed to be, like, outside doing things - going to the candy store for some reason, even though the CVS by my school is basically our candy store. 

DAVID SHIPLER: I mean, this is a whole album of songs that almost together make a story about this oil refinery based on what you told us on, you know, the real thing. So now we're going to skip down and we're going to play one that's called “Research.”

[MUSIC by Ants on a Log We search, and we search, and we search and search and then we search again. And that's why it's called “research,” because once is not enough, nowhere, no that is not … …CSOR - Canadian Sandwich Operating Room, that can't be it. Central Scotland Omnivorous Rabbits? Interesting. (I'm tired.) What? We just started! (I’m hungry.) A sandwich operating room does sound good - here we go: City Solutions Oil Refinery. This is the place the news was talking about, and on those guys’ jackets. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: So what's this? Searching? 

SAM PAPAS: Figuring out that that the oil refinery exists, that's, like, burning the oil, that's putting smoke into the air, that's giving all these people coughs and maybe even some serious medical disorders, like asthma or bronchitis. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Sam, I'm sure you use Google, right, to search for history papers? 

SAM PAPAS: Google, Safari, Yahoo …

DAVID SHIPLER: But how do you know what's true and what isn't, Sam, because there's so much falsehood on the Internet? How do you decide what you can believe and what you can't? 

SAM PAPAS: Multiple sources. When I was doing a thing on offshore drilling, I found Greenpeace and a bunch of environmental organizations that I've heard of and I trust, because I also found it on other sites. Like, my example was British Petroleum. They pled guilty to violating the Clean Air Act, meaning that they probably knew that they did, but they didn't, like, take the time to fix it because someone figured out and went to court. 

DAVID SHIPLER: Now, how do you know how to do this, Sam? Did you learn this in school, or what? I mean, the triangulation of multiple sources and selecting which ones to do to believe. 

SAM PAPAS: Like, our teachers, they want us to use multiple sources. You look up those sources, you quote them. It's been taught. And I also have a sort of sense. I have this, like, gut instinct that you should do something again and again. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: You have a Spidey sense to get multiple sources. 

SAM PAPAS: Yes. 

DAVID SHIPLER: And you also can call it common sense, of which there's too little in this country. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: I would like to say for the record that when I was in fifth grade, I am sure we did not study offshore drilling. 

DAVID SHIPLER: No, no. Well, I don't - yeah, no, that's for sure. Was there offshore drilling when we were in fifth grade? 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Was there oil? 

DAVID SHIPLER: We had whale oil, wasn't it? 

SAM PAPAS: I chose to study offshore drilling. No one, like, assigned it to me. I was like, “This sucks. I'm going to choose to study it.”

ANYA ROSE: That's awesome. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: As a science teacher - and I've seen videos you've put on the web to help get your kids excited about science experiments, I really enjoyed watching them - is there something you've learned from your students that helps inspire you in writing and performing this music? 

ANYA ROSE: Well, I'm always aware of how my students react to music. And I'm always trying to be aware of the stuff they're thinking about, their concerns. That's a big influence on me. And also their sense of humor: What are they laughing at? 

DAVID SHIPLER: There's a song - we'll skip down a few in this album - called “Air and Space.” Anya, do you want to say anything about the song before we play it? 

ANYA ROSE: “Air and Space” is just to add a fun character to the play, to show, like, one aspect of obstacles that people can come across when trying to make these kinds of changes. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Actually, before we talk too much more about the message of the song, I'd love to hear a little bit and then see what Sam thinks. Let's not be spoilers. 

[MUSIC by Ants on a Log Hello, Uncle Steve. Mind if I come in? (Why Cleo, Oh, what a lovely surprise.) Hi. I have a question for you about the oil refinery. (Oh, yes, the oil refinery. Well, yeah. Did I ever tell you about the time that I was having lunch with myself, and I just had this amazing invention? It was very innovative. And now, this is related to the oil refinery, you just have to wait. Just wait a second. So, I was making this amazing sandwich, and I put together peanut butter and wait for it: jelly. Now, wait. I never heard of that. (I don't think you invented that.) Yes, I invented that. It was a snowy day in January … ]

ANYA ROSE: I loved seeing Sam's reaction to Uncle Steve saying he invented peanut butter and jelly. 

DAVID SHIPLER: Sam was doubled over in laughter during that whole song. 

SAM PAPAS: I think that is showing how hard it can be to get people to listen to kids, because “Kids are stupid and they don't know anything. So we've got to decide what's best for them.” And yadda yadda, yadda, yadda. Boring adult nonsense. 

ANYA ROSE: I just hate it when people talk down to kids. I remember people, adults speaking to me like that when I was a child and just being like, “Why? You don't have to talk to me like that. You can speak to me like a normal person.” I put a lot of thought actually into - I mean, I put a lot of thought into everything, but - I put a lot of thought into the idea of not really listening and just responding with what you know, without really listening to what someone else wants to know. And then there is, of course, this idea of mansplaining. And I often see people in the audience, like, nudging their partner when they hear it, like, “See, this is what you do.” And I love the realization that the two characters come to. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: And these two characters are girls, right? 

ROSE One of them is a girl. The other one is non-binary. Taylor goes by they/them. 

SAM PAPAS: Well, that's good. That's good that you have the, like, diversity in, you know, gender, sex, affiliations, stuff like that. 

ANYA ZWERDLING: One of the songs that I love most in this musical is called “Anyone Can Write a Letter.” And this is about how anybody at any age can write letters to government officials and try to, you know, pressure them to do something. Let's hear that one, please. 

[MUSIC by Ants on a Log A letter? (Yes. Uncle Steve said anyone can write a letter to Congress. Oh, there you are, pencil.) Wow. Anyone can write a letter. (Yes. And that's what politicians are for. You can call them and tell them about all your problems.) Let's see, Dear Mr. Senator, my name is Cleo. (And my name is Taylor.) And we're worried about the oil refinery that City Solutions is planning to build in our town. ]

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Sam, have you ever written a letter to some sort of official about a social problem? 

SAM PAPAS: No, I've had this thought, but I can never figure out what to put in it, and I could never figure out what to say. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Well, Sam, I don't think there's any rush that you have to write letters to politicians. I'm sure they'll hear from you one day, probably sooner rather than later. In any case, Cleo and Taylor's campaign against the oil refinery takes off in the musical, “Curious.” And we urge you, our listeners, to hear the entire musical so you can find out what happens next. But before we go, Dave, you want to bring up one more song, and this one is not from the musical. 

DAVID SHIPLER: I just wondered. There's a song, “Had to Stand Up,” about racism and how to stand up against it. 

ANYA ROSE: Yeah, Julie wrote that song during the pandemic and that summer of 2020, when a lot of the Black Lives Matter protests were happening. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: You have a talented collaborator. 

ANYA ROSE: Yeah. And Julie wanted example for kids who want to be allies to people of color. 

[MUSIC by Ants on a Log I love taking my shoes off in the sand box, the sand feels cool to the touch. I'm building my own sandcastle kingdom, wish I could live there so much. ‘Cause yesterday I saw a kid who looked like me, playing right here under my favorite tree. But he was being mean to somebody on our playground, calling him names because his skin was brown. Should I just stay quiet, don’t cause a big scene? Will I get in trouble, will that kid be mean to me? ]

SAM PAPAS: Yeah, that definitely feels like something that would happen, because during Black Lives Matter, pretty much any time racism was mentioned, it was hard for people to stand up. 

DAVID SHIPLER: Yeah. You know, I did a book on race some years ago, and one thing I was told by blacks was how hurtful it was, not only when some white person would make a racist remark but how other white people - teammates, friends - would not stand up for them, would not say anything, just were silent. So it doubled the wound. 

ANYA ROSE: Exactly. And the whole, like, “silence is violence” phrase. That's true. Well, here's another thing: I think the word “racist” and the noun “racist” is really tricky, because when someone's displaying racist behavior - people are very averse to being called that. Because most people are not intending to be racist. But it is something that we have all done. It's hard to use the noun, “You are a racist.” No, you're just experiencing, you're just exhibiting racist behavior - and you can correct that. 

DAVID SHIPLER: I think you're absolutely right, Anya, because the term racist is categorical. And we know that human beings actually fall along a spectrum - even prejudiced people - from bad to worse, and that you could say “prejudice” or that they're stereotyping or they're generalizing or, as you say, exhibiting racist behavior - which leaves open the possibility of nuance, and people have the possibility of improving and correcting. And that's it's important not to slam the door on those differences. 

[MUSIC by Ants on a Log I didn't know what I should say. At  first I just asked, Hey, are you okay? We both turned to the mean one, my chest felt so tight. It was hard to get the words to sound right. He said, That's not fair. And I said, Yeah, that's not right. We said, Do you know what it means to have skin dark or light? And I looked at my own skin and saw it was light, too. And I hoped I'd never do what I saw that kid do …And that’s how I knew I had to stand up. Yeah, that's how I knew I had to stand up. Couldn't sit there anymore…] 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Well. Anya Rose, after people hear your music, what do you want them to walk away with? The kids especially. 

ANYA ROSE: Yeah, what do we want them to walk away with? I think a feeling of hope, a smile on their face, some laughter - and maybe something that gets stuck in their head that they later realize is useful. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Anya Rose writes songs, and sings, and plays instruments with the  group called “Ants on a Log.” 

ANYA ROSE: And I also really appreciate just hearing, Sam, there are many kids like Sam out there who are paying attention, who have good insight and who we should be learning from. 

[Theme Music]

DANIEL ZWERDLING: By the way, schools can and schools do perform your musical, “Curious,” right? 

ANYA ROSE: Yes. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: You can find out more on the group’s website, which is?

ANYA ROSE: Antsonalogmusic.com. Also, I have my own website. I don't know if that's appropriate, but it's anyarose.org, that also has stuff about my teaching. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: We also want to give a big to Sam Papas for joining us. 

SAM PAPAS: Papas, it's Greek. And just so you know, it's one P. The people who gave me an art award got that mixed up. 

DAVID SHIPLER: I’m glad you got the award anyway. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Hearing you talking - talking to you, Anya, and talking with you, Sam - makes me feel a little bit more hopeful about the world, which otherwise gets me depressed really often. 

ANYA ROSE: Thanks so much for having me. 

DAVID SHIPLER: Anya, thanks for this, and thanks for what you do, because I think these are wonderful songs. I wish all teachers would use them and get their kids animated and excited. 

ANYA ROSE: Thank you. All right. Bye bye, Sam. 

ZWERDLING And that's it for this episode of two reporters. 

DAVID SHIPLER: You’ll Find us on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or pretty much any leading podcast site. And we hope you'll check out more of our work at tworeporters.org. I'm David Shipler. 

DANIEL ZWERDLING: And I'm Daniel Zwerdling. Please join us again soon for another episode of Two Reporters. Bye bye.