Navigating As A Trans-Racial Adoptee

All Rights Reserved.  @sherrieeldridge

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, dear friends and family through adoption. It's so good to be with you this morning. I'm so grateful that you tuned in to this podcast. And you know, here in Indiana, we've had some funny things happening with the weather. Five days ago it was all green and the daffodils were coming up. Now it's snow. So it's just so incredible. But you know, in the midst of it, I when I was preparing this morning, I looked out my window and there was a beautiful woodpecker uh at our little our little site where he comes. It just reminds me that God's always with me, you know, and he touches me in different ways. And so anyway, I'm just so excited about this podcast today with Isaac Etter. He's a fellow adoptee, he is a specialist in transracial adoption. He is the CEO of and founder of Identity, and he's also the founder of Parenting Different. I love that title. So anyway, Isaac, welcome. I'm so glad to meet you.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Uh this is uh, you know, I'm not when is this you when is this releasing? Come like what, like a week from now?

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Oh, maybe tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Maybe tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Is that okay?

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Yeah, it's okay. I mean, this is uh this is probably the last interview I'm gonna be doing as the CEO of Parenting Different. Um, and so I am uh I am stepping back and somebody else is taking the reins, and I'm really excited for her to take the charge as I as I walk into a new season of this work.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

So I'm honored to be with you. Yes, I would love to hear you know what led you to that decision and what you're gonna do next. I read on social media that you were stepping out, and I thought, my goodness, we've got to have a podcast. I've got to know this fellow adopter personally.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Yeah, of course. Well, thank you. That that's a great way to start, and and I'm honored to start that way. So personally, for me, over the last I think two years, I felt a really big disconnect in in the work that I was doing. And and I love, you know, I've I've been an entrepreneur since I was a teenager, and I've loved building things. And there was something about the the work that wasn't resonating with how I wanted to do it anymore. Um, I think that you know, we've been building resources, and and many people don't even know the extent of what we've done. You know, a lot of the work that we've done is actually inside of states and agencies. We've brought, you know, different education, different resources. It's been a real joy. Like, you know, we've worked inside of states, brought some of some of the first transracial adoption education in the way that we do it to a state, you know, beyond their one, you know, typically there was one training. But we brought so many more resources to so many areas. For me, I think that what I found was that you know, the truth about how I wanted to do this work was not from a place of being like a CEO and and being an employer, that that wasn't my truth. And I think I'm a great speaker. I think I'm really great at expressing how adoptees are feeling and how they are navigating life. And uh the the role that I've been in for the last two years, I think has maybe not filled that cup the way that I want to fill it. And so in stepping back, I get to go, I think, back to the work that I think fills me the most, which is gonna be, you know, writing and speaking. And so I am working on a book that I'm publishing. Hopefully, in the next uh two years, I'm gonna have it published. Uh, but I'm writing a book right now, and um I'm gonna be speaking a lot, and I'm gonna be building, you know, I'm working on a couple little other projects that I'll probably talk about later, but I'm building some other projects that I I'm hoping to be more adoptee focused.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Oh, that's wonderful. What an interest!

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Yes, oh thank you. That's wonderful, and it just I love your self-awareness. Thank you. Yeah, that that's a real process for adoptees, especially. We've got so many things to work through it to get that self-awareness, and it's beautiful to watch. Okay, so let's go back a little bit. We kind of got to the end. Let's let's back up a little bit and tell us your story about how you were adopted.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Yeah, absolutely. So I was adopted when I was two years old. You know, my birth mother struggled with different forms of poverty, and and one of them being being homelessness and having to figure out where where we would be, where we would sleep. And yeah, I mean, it's a hard part of my story. You know, being raised with my birth mother for almost two years, I think it brings up a lot of a lot of different feelings. There's gratefulness in that, there's pain in that. Um, you know, I um I randomly got emailed by the social worker who did my adoption. She was my mother's social worker, actually, which was crazy. She emailed me on the blue uh two years ago, maybe now. And one of the things that she told me was that, you know, me and my mother slept on a couch together. And, you know, for me that's always been really sweet. That's always been a really sweet memory. Um, you know, in all of the pain and frustration that I think we as adoptees find, especially towards our birthday mother, there's something that's uh always come back to a moment of of of joy and and peace and sweetness, the thought of almost two years of us sleeping on a couch together. Yeah, beauty in the midst of brokenness, 100%. And so some part of my story that I think I really value, to be honest. Um and so, you know, after that season, you know, there was there was issues and you know, there wasn't gonna be housing. There was only housing for, you know, certain people, and that led to just deciding that adoption was the the last option. As is the case with many of us, you know what I mean? But no matter when we relinquished, I think that our our birth parents, you know, this in a sense was their last option. You know, they might have weighed all the options and just this is where it landed. And that that was my story a hundred percent. And so I got brought to uh to a small adoption agency in in Richmond, Virginia when I was almost two years old. And uh that same same day, uh my parents went to inquire about adoption. So pretty uh unique story, right? Yeah, so same same day. Yeah, absolutely. And the adoption agency that I was adopted through uh did not usually do toddler placements, so I was two years old. And especially at this time, you know, in adoption, and adoption was really what you did, you know what I mean? You know, and so this adoption agency really only did infant adoption, so I was their only two-year-old. You know, you know, I was one of the first children, you know, shown to my parents. I think, you know, as they were looking through who they maybe could adopt, you know, the agency is trying to push me on them, and uh thankfully I think I was a pretty cute baby worked. And so within a month, actually, I moved into their house. Oh, it's a pretty quick process, a quick process from that day to being in the house that I was adopted in. And you know, as you mentioned, you know, I'm a transracial adoptee, so I'm black and my parents are white, and so my upbringing also had those experiences. But the beginning of my story is kind of that that two years of of chaos, beauty, tragedy, um, and hope, you know what I mean? Yeah, hope, right? Hope for a better future. I think they were all in those first two years of my life.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

So um are you still is your birth mother still alive? And do you have any contact with her?

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Yeah, so she is still alive, and we do have like limited contact. So we've never had a I think a super deep relationship. And you know, at the point I think I am in the journey, you know, if if any of my birth family wanted a deeper relationship, I would be open to it. But I think at the point that it is at now, that might not be on the table the same way. Though I am very open to the ideas of it. And certainly I've put you know my nets out there to open up the door, but I think that as you know, and as many adoptees know, that that goes so many ways because it's so complicated. Adoption is complicated for everybody, it's painful for everybody, and you know, reunion brings up a lot for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Oh, it does. You know, the birth mother hasn't done her work like you have done, and she hasn't had that opportunity, I should say. That sounded rather judgy. If she hasn't had that opportunity for to get help, then she's probably not gonna be able to receive at least 100%. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Yeah, and it is it is an opportunity, and it is it is hard too, you know. You you've done so good at writing these experiences that we have as adoptees and obviously living them yourself. There's so many things that we go through. Well, yeah, of course. Uh there's so many things that we go through on the adoptee side, and there's layers to the pain. So there's layers to the initial wound, the initial loss, and there's layers to the grief that comes after it. And so I can only imagine on the other side the layers of pain and grief that exist as a birth parent. And there are some birth parents that talk really wonderfully and powerfully about this, but you know, you know, I can't imagine what what she might be navigating as as you know, my birthday comes around for her, as I turned into an adult for her, as I had a child, what her emotions would be around that. And so there's all these ways in which grief shows up for her as they've shown up for me that I I do try to be conscious of as I still navigate my own feelings.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Well, that that's that's a very mature way to look at it. And you know, boundaries, it sounds like boundaries are very important to you, and you know, staying within those boundaries, maybe inching a little bit, but still staying within, right? Because you're the you're the type of person that wants to grow. You're growing all the time, and so things change and well so what was it like? I mean, so okay, so your adoption happened, and then when were you aware of the fact that you were different, a different race than your parents?

SPEAKER_02 9:55

Yeah, I mean, I was aware the whole time, you know, to my parents' benefit, adoption was never a secret. Looking different, you know, you've seen pictures of my family from online. Looking different was a was a hard one to hide. Nobody, nobody was hiding that per se. To my parents' benefit, and I think to just the fact that it would have been almost impossible to really hide. There was never this period of my life where I did not know or I was not on some level conscious. And so that I think it is a blessing. I think it's a blessing that adoption was never this thing that was revealed to me. And I also think it's a blessing that it never I never had to have like uh, what do you mean you're not my dad or my mom conversation? That I never had to have this mystery around why I look different. I think mystery for adoptee is like a curse. You know what I mean? We already live with so much mystery. So I'm glad that I didn't have another layer of mystery. Um and so there was no like, oh, maybe my mom was dating somebody before my dad. You know, there was none of that. Um, and so I always knew, and that was I think I think that was a gift from my parents, uh, and obviously a perspective that they had was uh which was ahead of its time, to be honest. You know, there were many racial adoptees that are my age that did not have a conversation, and you know, for as long as they could pass for a blended family or you know, whatever, their parents did, and they were they remember being told they were adopted. And so I'm very thankful that you know my parents were conscious enough to say this is not something that should be hidden from him, he should know his story. And there was a level of openness for the first two years after I was adopted. So we all lived in the same city. So for the first two years after I was adopted, there was uh there was there's a minimal openness. You know, I saw my birth mother, I saw my birth grandmother, I saw some of my birth family sometimes, and then my birth mother moved to Las Vegas, and then my birth family moved to Texas, and then we moved to Lancaster, Pennsylvania. So we moved to Amish Country, and so that is when I think more of the starkness of being different really became real because we moved from more diverse area and also a level of openness to no openness, much less diversity, really being one of the only kids of color, and the only kids of color, the other kids of color were also adopted. And so that that switch that happened when I was around five was really when it switched from I look different and now I'm isolated to I just look different. And that isolation I think is really what brings on some of the challenges that come with trying to understand who you are, right? It's one thing when you look to you growing up in a diverse community and at least you have some mirrors. Um, but to be so young and to move to an area where all of that was gone, I think really led to the complications and understanding.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Well, uh I I hear the you know, I hear the story. So how I'm curious, I mean, you're a churchgoer, I think. How I've I've gathered, how did people in the church I mean, sometimes they say, Well, we're all adopted when you know they're uncomfortable with just being uh the same culture, but how was that? I mean, were people uncomfortable and what did they say and what do you wish they would have said? How could how could they how could they communicate and help you feel safe and heard and valued?

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Yeah. Well, I grew up in the church, definitely. And so, you know, in the church that I grew up in, there were only, you know, the only people of color were adopted people. And so, you know, when I typically talk about my experience growing up in the church, my experience around being a c a person of color was an automatic assumption with adoption, which I think is is a unique, interesting framework, right? Whereas that I think it would have been more surprising to see a person of color that was not adopted at our church than it would have been to see a person of color who wasn't up. And I think that's a challenging thought that there can be a community that that feels kind of closed off to a point to where running into people of a different race would be unexpected unless they were adopted. And, you know, I grew up, I was homeschooled as well, most of my upbringing, and I grew up in, you know, religious old school community. And so, you know, I would say the same thing in the homeschool world, like, you know, we there were there were kids that came and went, you know, Asian kids, other black kids that maybe would be there for a year or for a semester or whatever. And, you know, if there was a kid of color that walked in, there was not an assumption that they came from a home of color. There was an assumption that they were adopted. I never saw a kid growing up that I didn't automatically assume was adopted. And, you know, I think literally all but one was. So it's it meant that I think diversity and in terms and kind of creating environments that are welcoming to all people was not something that was truly a part of my upbringing, right? Um which is challenging to the environment, right? And so racial issues were not discussed, um, being of a different race was not discussed, and if anything, you know, me being of a different race, at least among peers, was only like a joke, right? Should be good at sports, should be able to jump high, things like that. And so our conversations about race and culture were so limited. And because of that, exposure to culture was also very limited. You know, basically whatever I could find on TV would be the closest, but you know, the media I was consuming was not necessarily like black media either, right? That's not the media my people was watching or my friends were watching. And so there was I don't think there was an overt racism, right? But I do think that, you know, and one thing that I talk about with right now with transracial adoption at time, is that I do think that there but there is an unconscious bias. And this bias creates creates borders unconsciously. Because I'm sure that if I if if at that time I had talked to anybody at the church, any of the church leadership, they would not have said, you know, people of color are not welcome, right? They would not have said black people aren't welcome in the church, right? That wouldn't have been their narrative. But nothing about how they were operating would have made a person of color feel welcome, right? Would have invited that culture into it. Nothing about the culture of the church would have said to anybody who wasn't adopted and growing up within that culture that their culture is there. And so the the struggle that I think happens for many transracial adoptees is that they're not necessarily growing up in environments that have said their race is bad. But because they've never seen people that look like them, they haven't seen adults in authority positions that look like them, their unconscious bias around people that look like them becomes very complicated. Uh, because that's how unconscious bias really forms. It's what we don't know, it's what we don't see. And then it's the stereotyping in the media that gets to shape our judgment about people, right? And if media is shaping my judgment around people that look like me, well, let's think about what was going on in 2000s and some tens, early 2010s, the narrative around people of color was not super positive because of some of the racial movements that were happening. Um and so these unconscious biases I think got put on me, and I know they got put on peers around me.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

That must have really hurt.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yeah, absolutely, especially as you get older. I mean, you know, as you get older and you're trying to make sense of who you are, you know, I was making trying to make sense of who I am as a person of color, as a, you know, as a black man who was navigating the world as a black man, which is I think a complex transition for many transracial adoptees. To go from living in their home, living in a bubble, to now navigating a world that does not see them as does not see their parents as white, right? Does not see their does not see them as an adoptee. I was not, I you know, I nobody who I met at college, you know, it wasn't like I introduced myself like, hey, I'm adopted by white parents, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 18:02

And so adoptees don't do that, right? We don't even get people adopted.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Many times. Many times. And so, you know, the the protection of my childhood, navigating the way I was navigating the world as a child and as a teenager, um, was not sustainable as soon as I entered the adult world, as soon as I entered college and then entered living on my own. Um, I had to learn and and was, you know, kind of forced and thrust into an awakening that not everybody not everybody does think that, you know, I'm equal. Not everybody not everybody has a correct interpretation of me.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

Um, I went to college with people who I was the first black person they met. And so as you can imagine, they're coming with their own biases and stereotyping that is a byproduct of their environment, right? And so all this is getting put on me as a transracial adopter who also doesn't understand who he is and and his racial identity. And these are complex journeys.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Very complex. So what you know, going back to the just the church thing for a minute, what should people how should people make you adoptees, especially transracial? You know, I had trouble with the word transracial because I felt like that was kind of labeling you. I yeah, you know, this is I don't like that word. Huh? People don't like that word.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

I said I personally don't like that word.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

I didn't like it either. I put on my notes. This bothers me because um I don't like the label anybody. Yeah, and I don't want to be even labeled as an adoptee. You know, I am the person I am.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

I am the wonderful person I am, right? And you are the wonderful person you are.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

But you're the queen of the adoptees, you know what I mean? You're queen adoptee psyche adoptee psychology, you know what I mean? You're the queen of us as a queen of the adoptees.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

I am? Yes. That's funny. I'm probably the oldest one. I just turned 80.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

I don't think I'm the queen.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Well, I think any of us, you have been like uh, you know, like an icon, somebody for us to to learn about ourselves through. And so, you know, I think that you know many adoptees have been, and I know I've personally been grateful to learn from the ways in which you've written about our experience as people, and it's helped put a lot of language to emotions that I felt my whole life. And so you're on the Mount Rushmore of Adoptees for sure.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Well, uh I can't wait to read your book.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

Thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

I hope I get to endorse it.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Absolutely. I would love to send you another copy, and we'll we can talk more about it later, but I'm writing, I'm not writing my book about transracial adoption. I'm writing my book about uh grief through the lens of adoption. And so I'm actually talking I'm actually talking about everything that I haven't talked about, which has become my path I've talked about transracial adoption for 10 years, and so I'm now talking about the person behind the person that the the struggling, the grief, the loss, the pain that was behind the scenes. So I'm very excited to share.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

That's that's wonderful. I mean, there's nothing out there like that.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Yeah, and it needs to be understood. I think a lot of adopters will feel will feel very seen uh through being able to associate just like you've taught me, how to associate our behaviors with the connection.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

So I don't know, I don't know if he'll share this or not, but I just before I when I was getting to know you, I heard the interview with your dad.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

About when you were nine years old. Do you want to share that or not?

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Yeah, are you talking about the the story we talked about beforehand?

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Yeah, yeah. I mean I just your dad sounds so loving and cool. Absolutely. And the way he interacted with you in that interview was just spoke volumes, I thought, for both of you.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Absolutely. Yeah, and so I mean, the story I think you're referring to is when Me and my sister were playing a game, and we wanted to see if we could jump out the window into a bush. The goal was, you know, could we jump out the window into a bush and survive? And so, in order to survive this jump, you know, I put pillows underneath my shirt, I put a helmet on, I wrapped myself in blankets, and then I jumped out the uh the second story window onto a big bush that we had.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Oh my god. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

I mean, it definitely was a little high up there.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Two stories is high.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Yeah, it was a little bit of a high job. Definitely could have gone sideways, but there was a big dent in the bush for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

I mean, there you could you can tell where I landed in that bush for a long time. Not only because of all the pillows and the blankets surrounding me, but also just because of the you know, kind of the speed of the hit.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Um it was it was the second floor. I mean, maybe the first, maybe a story and a half. Uh it was up there.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

And so did I have a blank or something?

SPEAKER_02 23:05

I don't remember having any pain or anything. No broken leg. I think I kind of landed kind of like straight into it. I think if anything like scratches on my legs. But it was a you know, it was a surprising pain situation. I don't think anybody found out until maybe somebody heard the thud of me crashing into the book.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Oh my goodness. Well, you know, when we talked about this earlier, I you know what came to mind, I so identified with you because I mean, adoptees have fantasies. I mean, all the time. And you know, we we think about our first family quite a bit, right?

unknown 23:42

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Almost sometimes some adoptees almost every day.

unknown 23:47

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Where we came from. You know, do I look like her? Do I look like him? And the fantasies. Oh my goodness. I mean, that's why we're so creative, Isaac. That's why we love to write.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Absolutely. I mean, and living in fantasy is um sometimes how we the only way we can try to make sense of our own story, I think, a lot of the time. You know, it's the ghost kingdoms, the you know, it's the ghost kingdoms that that we create is one of the earliest fantasies, is the story of who our birth parents are and why they couldn't why they couldn't keep us. And often these stories are, right? They're princes and queens and celebrities. You know what I mean? The stories we make are are always entails. And we and I you know, I'm not sure if this was yours, but you know, many times, you know, the end of the fantasy is always that you know they come back in these luxurious vehicles or chariots and they come and they come and get us again. And I think it it's a way we try to make sense of our story, and and again, one of the reasons that we're so creative is because a lot of times our creative roots are in trying to create the story in which led to our circumstance.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Yes, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, well, um it's so complex. You really it can't become a gift though, and it has for you and it did for me. That's why we're writing, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yeah, yeah, and it you know, you mentioned something about thinking about birth parents, and you know, as as I've been thinking, and of course writing, one of the things that, you know, I wrote recently was was about that and how, especially on things like adoption days, you know, you would think that, you know, you're thinking of your birth parents and things like that. And you know, one of the things I wrote was, you know, the truth was that I was thinking about them all the time. I was thinking about them at every mention of how beautiful our family is, at every mention of adoption, every time, you know, somebody even mentions our family, you know, those were all those were all moments that were pointing back to thinking about my birth mother particularly and the choice that she made. And I think that's true for many of us as adoptees, is you know, at the mention of the family, there is the next thought is about our our birth family. And you know, would people say the same thing about me if I was with my birth family, maybe? And all these correlating thoughts that we have around family. I think family is very complicated for young people.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

And you know, you might shed more light on this, but I I tend to think that grief and adoption, the loss in grief and adoption, how I talk about it, starts at around six years old, six or seven years old.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

And that's when it started for me. And that's and as I as I work with families today, we I'm tending to find that the conversations and the acknowledgement and the curiosity and the pain around adoption is all starting at that point. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that. Um do you are you finding have you found that as well that the younger that it's happening much younger than people are are maybe thinking.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Yes, I mean I think for my story I I can't even share because I was so mixed up. You know, I had attachment disorder and all that stuff. Um I I don't have a current answer for that, Isaac. You're more the expert on that. I haven't been out in the field. I I've been writing, but at my age I'm not traveling anymore. So I don't have the pulse that you do. So, I mean, let me ask you this if there is a a young adoptee, like maybe a six-year-old, listening in the car or you know, on the way to school, or if there are teenagers listening and they're really struggling, both with adoption and with their race, what would you say to them today?

SPEAKER_02 27:33

I think that, especially if you're young and you're struggling thinking about a six-year-old, is to keep being curious. I mean, I think if you're listening to this in the car or if your uh parents would allow you to listen to this, you have parents who are who are open. Parents who are open to conversations, who are open to learning, who are open to being there with you. And I think the more you can learn to speak your feelings, the better. And so the more you can acknowledge that this is what you're thinking of, the more that you can try to invite your parents into that, I think the better. There's a really powerful quote uh by another adoptee, Anne Heffron, who you might have come across her work at some point.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

I love her.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

Anna's so talented, Anna's so talented. Um but she in her book, Look Adopted, she writes that to ask for what my need to ask for my needs would be like peeling off my own skin when she relates to her childhood. Um, that the thought of having to ask for what she needs would be like peeling off her own skin. And I I related to that so much. So I was scared to ask for my needs. And and I and I bet there are people and that are listening that are afraid to ask for their needs. And many times our needs as adopted people are to be heard, to try to be understood. And so I would I would say any age adoptee to to try to create that space and to uh learn to trust like that because that's so hard for us. It is and additionally, I would say to to not feel guilty about your feelings. I'm not sure if you've heard me, Sherry, talk about this, but I usually when I talk about loss, I do guilt. So I do loss, grief, and guilt. And I say those are the three core emotions that adopte feel. It's not just loss and grief, but there's also guilt about our grief and about our loss. Because oftentimes the sadness of Yeah, and the the curiosity, you know, the curiosity that we have from a young age, we tend to feel guilty about because everybody around us is talking about how beautiful our family is, how happy they are we were adopted. Our curiosity. Um so I would also say to adoptees is that you do not have to feel guilty for your curiosity or for your wondering or for the pain that you feel about your birth parents' choice. There's no there's no guilt that you have to that you have to carry for their choices or for your curiosity. Because you're a person. You're a person who has a fragmented history that you're trying to put together. And that and if you don't know all the pieces of your history, of your story, then you are going to be curious and you don't have to feel guilty about that curiosity.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

That's so good, Isaac. That's gonna be in your book.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Yeah, oh no, of course. We'll write a ton about guilt, because I've lived with a lot of guilt.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Yeah, me too. Me too. So sometimes Yankees beneath all that, I think their lives are a mistake. And so there's shame, right? Shame hides underneath the guilt. And so it's so complex. I mean, we kind of look at life through distorted lenses. You know, it's hard to make make sense of all of it. But it is possible, right? You and I are very good impulse. It is possible. So how would you encourage go ahead?

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Well, all I was gonna ask was do you find that writing for you has allowed that distortion to maybe rise, that there's been like healing and maybe clarity in your because you've written many books now. Have you found that on the other side of writing that you're continually getting able to kind of rise through that distortion?

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yes, that's a great question. Yeah, um I r I am gonna rise in June to the distortion that my birth family wasn't that great, at least my birth father. But I'm gonna be meet my brother, and that's gonna be rising to a new occasion in Portland. Um and we I know him by phone, but not in person. So that I'm gonna be curious to see how I rise to that occasion physically, emotionally. Reunion is hard.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Um it's not my first rodeo. I've done quite a few of them, but I can't wait to meet brother Jeff.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Yeah, I mean I think it does. I mean, I think you we you know what you're explaining is that there's seasons of it, that there's not just you know, it's not a one-time event.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

No, it's not a one-time event, and uh yeah, we carry it to the end, I think. What okay, so what what would you say to parents who are listening who want to do this really well?

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

What would you say and and what resources can you offer to them to help them do it well?

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Yeah, well, I think the first thing to do adoption in general very well is is the is the true acknowledgement and the willingness to continually understand loss and grief. I think that it is the most important uh task of an adoptive parent is to spend as much time as you can in understanding that it's gonna evolve, understanding loss and grief. And it's complex because on the base, I think there's probably many parents who are listening who are saying, Well, I understand loss, and I understand grief. I understand when you lose somebody, you grieve them. But I think adoption is a very unique grief. I I always describe it as unique grief. I don't describe it as uh just regular grief, because it's a unique grief because most of the time these people are still living. So, right, it is a unique grief that is much more similar to like I think losing somebody you loved in a breakup and never seeing them again, or maybe not seeing them again for decades, than it is maybe to actual death, even though I think the feeling of being adopted is closer to a death of a relationship. So think about the uniqueness in just that description that the feeling is like death, but the experience is like a breakup that you don't see somebody again for maybe ever. So we we live through this unique and complicated grief that I think can only really be understood through reading books like yours, through reading stuff like mine, listening to podcasts like this. You're really getting an idea of how your child might develop a thought process. And a thought process that begins very early for adoptees is one of loss and abandonment and rejection. No matter our stories, a narrative that gets that gets kind of ingrained in us from an early age, whether we're conscious of it or not, is one of, I think the right word is abandonment. That even if we understand that adoption was the best thing that could have happened in our circumstance, even if we know that our parents couldn't raise us, you know, there's a lot of parents that lose parental rights. Even if we know that as he's saying a narrative of abandonment uh gets shaped because we're looking at all of these other parents who have made it work. We're looking at the parents who didn't need drugs and who did figure out how to financially made it work, who figured out how to get, you know what I mean? And so we're watching movies, you know. Imagine watching Pursuit of Happiness as a teenager and knowing, you know, knowing your story was that, you know, your parents were homeless and then they placed you for adoption. Well, how did how did he survive it then, right? And so a narrative that can't fully be processed or understood because we're children around abandonment gets set in, I think, at some point. And so grief and this loss journey become more complicated and more unique. And grief always has a behavior attached to it. I think this is a really important thing for adoptive parents to understand is that loss is the complicated trigger point. Grief is the expression that happens. Just like how we associate, you know, somebody's parent dies and they go into a major depression and withdraw for months, that is a behavior associated to their grief. Children who experience adoption tend to have a lifelong expression related to their grief. What might show up as behavioral issues, and this is something that tenants like TBRI have gotten really good at helping parents understand, um, and that's trust relation behavioral stuff. I'm forgetting the whole acronym, but if you look up TBRI, it'll come up. But that has become really good explaining to parents how their child's behavior is all a reaction to trust being severed in their earliest years. So it's a reaction to loss, right? And so loss is the trigger point, grief is the expression still. And so when we understand this, we get to reframe our child's behaviors, right? If we understand our child is behaving out of either a conscious or an unconscious association with the fact that they have been abandoned, rejected, might be unloved by the person who gave birth to them, then behavioral issues tend to have a lot more context and understanding. And so then we can see a child maybe acting out, maybe out of control, getting in trouble in class, through a lens of loss. Now, another perspective that I want to add, which is why it's so important for parents to understand grief, is that we can also see kids acting in perfectionism as an expression of grief. So we might think of Randall from This Is Us, right? So if you've ever seen This Is Us, Randall was the perfect child, right? But as we watch the show, we see that he was not struggling with adoption. He was struggling with adoption the entire time. Even though he had the best grades, he was the star kid of the family. He was mommy's favorite, right? So behaviors that we do see across adoptees. And I know there's so many other expressions that can happen, but these are the two main ones that we see, I think, which is the perfectionism and the bad kid, right? That's how we would label it. The perfect kid and the trouble kid is how it's the two things we see them the most, right? And I think it's very important that if you're aware of grief and loss, that you're able to look at your child's behaviors, whether they are the model kid that you want to just let fix, or the kid who's acting out behaviorally, and look at it through this lens of okay, this might be connected to an internal dialogue and an expression of their loss that they're having. As we and you know, just to close here, uh another thing that I think is really important for parents is that many times when I talk to parents, what happens is like they're aware of these things and their kids don't want to talk about adoption and all these things, right? Understand that adoption is a lifelong process, right? Grief and loss in adoption are these lifelong processes. And I love using this is us as an example because it really illustrates how perfect how long this journey is. I believe it's Randall's 35th birthday, is when the when This Is Us starts and he's knocking on his birth family's door. You're wondering why your 10-year-old won't talk to you about adoption. Randall is 35 and just confronting this adoption. Yeah, he is he is that's when he first starts talking with his mom about his adoption is in the years of these episodes. So understand that we need to also have some perspective that your child may be struggling, having questions, and open up in small ways, have small questions, but this could be a journey that they fully engage in in their 20s and their 30s and their 40s, and the foundation that you set up for them to be able to feel safe to explore these emotions is what matters the most. And so creating the home and the environment where you are helping walk them through their grief, and through is the key word here, we're walking with our kids through their grief, gives them the ability to maybe process it earlier because they feel safety. And so, you know, the goal in adoptive parent in understanding grief and loss is not to fix it, is not to cure it, is not to make sure they talk about it with you every day, but is to create the environment and the foundation of safety where they feel the ability to explore these emotions safely throughout their life, whether they explore it in childhood, teenage years, or in their adult years, that they do not have to feel a sense of shame, guilt, or mystery around diving into these emotions.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Wow, that is powerful, Isaac. You are a pioneer. You are truly a pioneer in the world of adoption. And you know, I look back, uh, we talked earlier about generational things. I'm way ahead. N age, the new, and I just wanted to acknowledge when you talked about the kingdom, yeah, the ghost kingdoms, Betty Jean Lifton. I mean, we can look back and see adoptees, you know, in every age that that are bringing adoptees along. And your your message is unique. You're young, you're talented, and I hope I get to meet you in person someday.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

That'd be something to meet you in person.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Big adoptee hog. Thank you so much for joining me.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Well, thank you. You know, I can't thank you enough. I uh I should have pulled it out, but you know, your book here, it lives with a million tabs. It lives on my on my 20 things because I refer back to it so often. I pull it out for parents and presentations. It's one of I call it one of my Bibles of adoption, you know what I mean? And so it's it's such a powerful book that has uh allowed me. I think I actually read it right before my son was born. I talk about two triggering two triggering events at once, but it has been a gift to have this on my journey, and so thank you as well for the for the road that you cave for for me.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Yes, I I totally receive that. I thank you so much for that kindness. Your book someday, and younger people or your age is gonna have the marks too, the paper marks where you can find different things. So, anyway, um, Isaac, I'll let you go. Let's just thank the people who joined us, parents, adoptive parents. Uh, where can uh people go uh to your site? Just really quick. Is it Isaac?

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Yeah, so you can go to Isaacedter.com and see kind of like all my speaking stuff. Um, you can go to at Isaac underscore edder on Instagram. Um, and then if you want to file, if you're an adoptive parent and you're looking for resources, you can go to parentingdifferent.com and we put out free resources every single week, and that's not planning to stop. And so that's gonna continue on, and and uh I think it's something that a lot of adoptive parents really benefit from.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Okay, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

Thank you, Sherry. This is uh this is an honor.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

It's it's just been a joy to do this. Bye, everybody. I'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

See ya.