Straight Talk About Adoption Reunions

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Sherrie 0:01

Adoptee reunions with the first families. Yes. Are they good, bad, painful, or fabulous? Pam Kroskie and I are going to be talking about this, my sidekick, my favorite sidekick, who is so humble. And before we get into this, I want to tell you a little bit about my friend who tends to demean herself all the time because she's so humble. But I can brag about her . She wrote that I am the president of HEAR, which is Hoozers for Equal Access to Records and Indiana Adoptee Network. The bill that she orchestrated was signed into law on March 4, 2016, by former governor Indiana Mike Pence. It was Senate Bill 96, which allowed adoptees in Indiana, born between July 1941 and December 31st, 1933, to originate and to access, not to originate, to access their original birth certificates. Pam also, I gotta tell you some more about her because she's got her own company now. She owns her own business, the Zoe Farmhouse, which has 10,000 followers. She is the author of Jack and Emma, Emma's Journey, Story about Adoption. Like I said, she was the president of Here, and she has done everything she can to make adoptees move forward in their in their journey. She in in 1989, she started doing support groups for all members of the triad. She joined the American Adoption Congress. This is right from the beginning. Look at her. From where is that? Tell me. Angel in Adoption. You did it. Oh, that was awarded. Well, yeah, but then you got it.

Pam 3:24

Yeah.

Sherrie 3:25

Yeah.

Pam 3:26

Yeah.

Sherrie 3:26

So she has been my favorite person all along. But you know, just like in the world and especially in the world of adoption, really crummy things can happen to people. And Pam got dealt a really low blow. And so I just want to give her an opportunity to be a blessing again. I mean, as my sidekick.

Pam 3:53

Well, thank you for that introduction.

Sherrie 3:56

Yeah, when I'm gone, she'll carry on.

Pam 3:59

Well, you've done so many things. I mean, you know, you all I can't even name all the books you've written. And, you know, you and I have been friends for so long. And that that the bill that was passed, I mean, you helped with that bill. And there were so many there that bill was not just obviously passed by me. There were a a whole slew of people that helped with that, and a whole crew of people that did that. That obviously was not just me. I couldn't have not have done that by myself.

Speaker 4:38

But Pam, you were the leader. Well, you were the leader.

Pam 4:42

But I I'm I am very happy to have been part of that because and and most of the people that worked on it, I can say it it wasn't for it wasn't for them. It was for everyone else, you know. You know, because most of us had, if not our records, we were in reunion. So it was for it was for all of you know the other adoptees in Indiana. Um and again, it it was by far not a perfect bill. But as most people know it that have worked on on legislation, you a lot of times have to try to take bits and pieces and work with what you can, especially with the legislators that you work with. And Indiana is a very conservative state, so yes. Yeah, you gotta work with what you got.

Sherrie 5:44

That's right.

Pam 5:45

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Sherrie 5:48

Well, you you know, when we were talking about doing this, I said, Well, why don't you interview me? Because you're the younger one. And so she sent me a bunch of questions, and then I read this in her bio. She said, My own reunion with my birth mother was one of the most important things I've ever done in my life. And one grateful I accomplished before she died. You want to tell us about that of breast cancer, ma'am, and why that was so special.

Pam 6:18

Yeah. I I mean, honestly, I think you know, some people are not mentally and physically ready to search for you know, a long time. And I I get that. And I don't, I'm not sure I was ready, but I thought I was ready, so so I did it. And I'm glad that I thought I was ready because if I hadn't been ready, I would have missed out on a lot of time with my birth mom. And I'm so glad I found her when I did.

Sherrie 6:56

Yeah. What was her name?

Pam 6:59

Martha.

Sherrie 7:00

Martha. Yeah.

Pam 7:03

And you know, like a lot of adoptees, she named me. And I think I don't know about you, but the name always I think means something to us. Um, we we like, you know, we like knowing that name. And at first, I asked her if that name meant something, and she at first said no. But later she gave me a doll that was made by a woman. Oh, yeah, and on the wrist of the doll was the card of the woman that made the doll. And on the back of the card, she said, look at the back of the card. And it had my birth name on the card. Oh, Pam. Right. So, yeah, and I still have that doll, obviously. So, you know, it stuff like that means something to us, you know, it's it's important. Um there are a lot of things that happened after that that, you know, ups and downs. It's not there's no perfection in reunion, right? And I think a lot of adoptees, you know, go into reunion thinking it's gonna be kind of rainbows and all this perfection, and you have to go into it, knowing that is for sure not going to be that, you know. No family is perfect. No, you know, no family is.

Sherrie 8:30

I think you've made a really good point that I'd like to back up a little bit too when you said, I thought I was, I thought I was ready. You know, and that's that's really important because don't you think we we reach different milestones in our life?

Pam 8:46

Yeah, for sure.

Sherrie 8:47

And so, you know, for me too, I thought I was ready way back when. Right. Absolutely, you know, yeah, go too well. Um it wasn't my fault, but we'll talk about that later. Right, right. Yeah. So tell me more about her now.

Pam 9:07

Oh my gosh. She it's funny because I really think that I I think I don't know about you, but I think were your I don't do you think your mothers were very similar or were they very different?

Sherrie 9:26

They were very different.

Pam 9:29

Yeah. Very different. Were yours? They were very different and and very much alike at the same time. They had sort of the same temperament and they couldn't have picked two women that were more alike if they'd have tried. But yet they were different too, you know.

Sherrie 9:49

So you know how were they alike and how were they different?

Pam 9:56

They didn't but neither one of them were very maternal, I don't think. I mean they were, but they weren't. They had different they had different maternal ways about them. Yeah. And my adopted mom was more, I don't know, it's it's hard to explain. I mean, I think I think my adopted mom was more a little more maternal, but not not in that my birth mom wasn't maternal, that it was just in different ways, you know. Um, but I think my birth mom didn't really know how to be maternal with me. And she was probably more maternal with my sisters than she was with me, you know, because she knew how to do it with my sisters, and she didn't know how to with me. You know, it was a it was a different dynamic, you know.

Sherrie 10:49

And so you you're the oldest?

Pam 10:52

Yeah, I'm the oldest. Yeah.

Sherrie 10:54

Okay.

Pam 10:54

Yeah, I'm the oldest.

Sherrie 10:55

Three girls, uh-huh.

Pam 10:56

Three girls, yeah. So um, but yeah, I mean, you know, they don't want to step in too much, they don't, you know, they don't want to show too much, they don't want to, you know, overstep bounds. And I, you know, you understand that. You don't, and and then you don't know how to be, you know, so you kind of step back a little bit. So it's this give and take a lot.

Sherrie 11:21

Kind of like a dance, almost.

Pam 11:23

Yes, yeah. It's very well, I and it's funny you say that because one of my adoptee friends in all of this, I said it's like dancing with a bear. You know, it's it's like dancing with this huge bear, you don't want to step on your feet or you to step on their feet, you know. So you just don't have you don't have any tools when you first do it, you know, and I think that's one good thing about the beginning because you you learn, you know, you learn how to do it when you've gone to conferences and things. And that was the one nice thing that I learned. And these conferences are so good, you know. You go to, you know, different workshops and things, and you, you know, you learn how to talk and you learn how to express yourself and you learn you learn so many things. And boy, I learned a lot, a lot, you know, and that helped me. But I think I learned it too late. I learned it way after my reunion. And I wish I'd had those before I went into reunion. I would have been so much smarter.

Sherrie 12:40

You know, didn't you learn too late? Because that will be helpful to adoptees.

Pam 12:45

Well, they did they those conferences didn't exist when I was in reunion. You know, I was already way into my reunion before you know, when I before I started, you know, going to conferences. So I I was young, those conferences didn't exist, and there weren't a lot of books that I knew existed. Had I known, I would have read like a fiend, you know. Yeah, and that's who you are. Yeah, I just jumped in head first, right into the concrete. Just go in.

Sherrie 13:23

But I love that about you because you're a leader. You know, that's that so just say okay, thank you.

Pam 13:30

Yes.

Sherrie 13:31

Thank you.

Pam 13:32

Thank you. But yeah, you know, I think, and I think sometimes even now a lot of adoptees don't know that you know there are conferences, and I know that some still do exist, but you know, they've they've slowed down quite a bit compared to what they were like five or ten years ago.

Sherrie 13:51

But what's the first conference that you remember going to, Pam? Do you remember who the speakers were and everything?

Pam 13:58

Yeah, yeah. American Adoption Congress. That was the first one. Who were the speakers, so do you remember? Don't remember. Well, I don't know. I I can't remember actually, but I know like I learned about genetic sexual attraction. I didn't know, I didn't know there was such a thing. I didn't even know that was a possi I didn't know that was a possibility.

Sherrie 14:26

You know, our listeners probably aren't gonna know what that means.

Pam 14:30

No, no, I am sure they don't know what it means. Yeah. So genetic sexual attraction, you can be attracted to your well, you could be attracted to a sister, I guess, a brother, a father, a mother, because we look like our family members. And you know, when you don't know that, and you you know are meeting someone and you you're falling in love with your family members, and that is something that happens, and you aren't aware of that being a possibility, you don't know how to separate that love. And when you grow up with your family members and you know that they're your family members, you know, or whatever, then you know, you know that you're not supposed to necessarily fall in love with them. You don't you they pick their nose, they beat up on you, they you know, whatever. You don't fall in love with that person, you know.

Speaker 15:42

Right.

Pam 15:43

But when you meet them as a grown-up and you're a grown-up, it's a different realm altogether. So yeah, it's it's totally different. Yeah. Yeah.

Sherrie 15:58

So um, yeah. So do you want to say any more about your reunion with your birth mom?

Pam 16:06

I mean, I I wish I'd like I said, I wish I had been more prepared. You know, I think that it would have it would have been, I think, a better reunion. And I I wish she had been more prepared. And our reunion, I think, would have been a lot more solid. Our reunion was very rocky, and I think it would have been better, you know. But you know, you don't you don't know what you don't know. That's right.

Sherrie 16:37

I mean, it's yeah, you don't know what you don't know, and like you say, you're dancing with a bear.

Speaker 4 16:43

Yep, yep.

Sherrie 16:44

And I I dancing with a bear is scary, right?

Pam 16:48

It sure is, yeah. Well, and that's why I want a lot of adoptees to, you know, you know, read books, talk to other adoptees, right? Make friends, you know, just get out there and and if you're gonna go on reunion, you know, know as much as you can know, and that way you you aren't, you know, maybe as nervous and I don't want to say uneducated because you can't know everything, but know more than you can know, and more know that know more than I knew, and it will help for sure. Yeah.

Sherrie 17:28

Well, you know, when you think about the fact that we've been traumatized by losing our first family, yeah, our awareness, our self-awareness is pretty, pretty low. Right. So it takes a lot, a lot of work, yeah. Yeah to get to the place where you have self-awareness. And you know, would you I mean, would it help adoptees and birth? I mean, this can be birth parents also. Right. Adopted parents, would it help to get counseling? I think did you get counseling?

Pam 18:08

I did, I did eventually, not in the beginning, but uh later, yeah. Wow I mean, how did you feel when you know, like you met your mom? I mean, how do you how was that for you?

Sherrie 18:21

Oh, well, it was started out like a fairy tale. Yeah, and you know, I had a special outfit all picked out, it's gonna be perfect, it was all white, and you know, we flew in a banana plane out there, and she had she was she ran among the rich and famous, so she had a lot of things ready, you know. But her friends would take us out to dinner every night, but she wouldn't eat, you know, she would she'd order steak and then she'd just leave it there. Yeah, but you know, I can understand that if you're that traumatized by somebody coming into into your life, you know, yeah, you're not gonna, but anyway, I I had a lot, a lot of counseling. And one counselor said to me, Well, you know, if you want to get in touch with your adoptee anger, then just scream. And so the next the next time I went, the next time I went into the office, we sat down and I just started to scream and she jumped like crazy. You didn't tell me to scream. You said scream. That didn't work. That didn't work. Yeah, none, none of the counseling worked. And for adoptees to go in and sit with a counselor, no, that's not gonna work, is it?

Speaker 4 19:48

Yeah, yeah.

Pam 19:51

No, I think there's I mean, I I do think I think if the if the counselor is adoption smart, I don't know if that's the right word, adoption, adoption aware. Maybe that's the better word. That might be better, but I no, I don't I don't know that it's helped me really. I mean, maybe a little, because it gives you somebody to have some something to someone to bounce it off of.

unknown 20:22

Right.

Pam 20:22

But no, not really, no, no.

Sherrie 20:25

And today there are a lot of adoption competitors. Yeah, there there are. And you can get that through Center for Adoption Support and Education. Our listeners can look, we'll put that link in the in the notes so that they can look it up to find an adoption competent therapist anywhere in the US.

Pam 20:44

Right, right.

Sherrie 20:45

I think Debbie Raleigh's done a wonderful job with that. I mean, yeah she's just done incredible things. So, I mean, even to just go on their their website is really fun because it's so informative and it has so many new things that they're offering.

Pam 21:03

Yeah, yeah. I think that's that's number one. I mean, if your counselor is not adoption competent, then I don't want to say they they can't understand, but it it makes all the difference in the world to be on that plane with you. You know, they they need to be able to know.

Sherrie 21:27

Well, my basic belief is that we need fellow adoptees first and a friendship with a fellow adoptee. And yeah, that's why I wrote Under His Wings a workbook, which is available on also in Spanish on Amazon.com. But that's something that with teenage adoptees that you can use, maybe take them out on a date and make it real special, and you know, go through the first chapter and you can learn about Moses, who had the Name insecurities that we all the adoptees have. Oh, for sure. And so they will learn they're not alone. We're not alone, right, Pam?

Pam 22:10

Yeah, no, not. No.

Sherrie 22:12

That's why I love our friendship.

Pam 22:14

Me too. Me too. I know you just had a reunion. Tell me how that made you feel versus your reunion with your mom. A sibling reunion versus birth parent reunion. Tell me what that was. That's a good question.

Sherrie 22:36

Well, like I said, with my birth mother, I had to be perfect. I had to have a boy, you know, I had no self- I I and like you said, way back when in this conversation, I thought I was ready. I mean, I'd been through counseling and everything. I thought I was ready. Yeah. I probably was as ready as I could be. But when when I was getting ready to reunite with my birth brother, Jeff, it was so different. And I put a little thing on YouTube about how I wore my jeans because I wanted to just be the real person that I am. I'm a jeans person.

Speaker 4 23:19

Yeah.

Sherrie 23:20

And so I just thought I'm not gonna dress up, I'm just gonna be myself. And so it was totally different. I had, I can't say that I've arrived. I have a lot more self-awareness than I used to. But I was able to stay centered in who I am. And you know, it just in you know, reuniting with my brother was just really incredible because he just started giving me little kisses all over my face.

Pam 23:54

That's sweet.

Sherrie 23:54

That's yeah, yeah, it was awesome. And you know, and then he started telling me about himself, and it's like, oh my gosh, I mean, this is a major, major person I'm reuniting with. He was I'll break a little bit about him. He was an actor. Oh wow. At I think Warner Brothers.

Speaker 4 24:20

Wow.

Sherrie 24:21

And he traveled across the country doing all this. He came to know Jesus like I think in his 30s, something like that. Nice. He was he's a veteran. He served, I think, seven years. I I'm not sure how many years. Proud of him for that. And but he's like a he has stained, uh it's not stained glass. If I say that, it'll just be little what he does. He he uses like a carving thing, a special carving device that he can he can carve pictures out of glass. Oh yeah. And he's got, I mean, he had pictures of homes of millionaires where his homes all all over the country, maybe the world. He's pretty well known. Yeah, and yeah, and he's a pastor, you know, went to his church, and that was cool, and he preached about adoption. And yeah, but the you asked the what it gave me. I think what it gave me, Pam, was just a real it removed the shame that I had there, yeah. Underneath in my soul, because of our father, yeah who who was a very broken man, right saying it very kindly. He was broken seven or eight times. Wow. And so uh yeah, and so there are a lot of children that you know have resulted. Yeah, and so I'm the oldest. And so anyway, when when I we sat down and shared all that, it was like, oh my gosh, what a privilege to get to know my brother.

Pam 26:16

So how many are there total from your dad?

Sherrie 26:21

I think seven. Wow. Wow.

Pam 26:26

Are they are you all lit are they all living or I guess.

Sherrie 26:31

I mean, some of them don't want to meet me, and that's okay. You know, when I learned that, I thought, okay, I'm kind of reunioned out anyway in time. Yeah, but I'm not now. I mean, but right, but you know, one of them, Candy, my sister, she um very accomplished person, also. Yeah, and um, she came in here five years ago. Oh, yeah. We were featured in the Indianapolis Star magazine coffers, yeah. So anyway, yeah, there's yeah, but it just you know, it removed from me the shame that was hiding underneath that I didn't know really was there. You know, I'd say I know who I am in Christ spiritually, but physically and this physical part, yeah, I still had my doubts. I had my self-worth already, but I there was still something under there. And with Jeff, I mean, it just really I felt completion.

Pam 27:41

Now, does that answer? Yeah, oh yeah. Now your sister, you guys have the same dad, but you do you and Jeff and Candy all have different moms?

Sherrie 27:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was so fun using ancestry.com, you know, because before I went Jeff, I'd say, well, do you know how you know my mother could have ended up out in Portland with her father? Yeah. You'd say, well, he he drove the you know, the dairy truck all across the country. Sure. So it's really fun, you know, to find out that kind of stuff. But on the last day, you know, I mean, I've I gave him what I had found from ancestry.com and it was so amazing. I was glad that I could give something to him. Yeah, yeah. And it was stuff he'd never seen before, Pam.

Speaker 4 28:43

Wow.

Sherrie 28:44

Yeah. So that's cool. Um yeah, I think it was just the beginning I I'm sure we're gonna re you know, get together again.

Pam 28:52

That's fun. Now, where does he live or do you want to say? You don't have to say.

Sherrie 28:56

Oh, he lives in the Portland area, Portland. Yeah.

Pam 29:00

Well, yeah, I know. It's I think the birth father side is always, I mean, we know, I guess we when we find out our birth mom side, this it's like this kind of anchoring thing. And so we we have that, and then almost always the birth father side is this kind of almost mystery, yeah, for a lot of us, and we spend so much time, like you like me. We it it had it comes down to DNA, you know, and we're searching, you know, and and we fantasize, right?

Sherrie 29:41

Yeah, fantasize about our birth father. Yeah, maybe he's a handsome guy getting on the plane, right? Right, exactly. You know, we're looking for him everywhere.

Pam 29:51

I know, for sure. Yeah, I mean, my birth father was married 10 times.

Sherrie 29:57

Was he really?

Pam 29:58

Yeah, I say he must have believed in love. Yeah. Well, he uh he was actually he married one woman twice, so he really liked her a lot.

Sherrie 30:11

You really like her, sonny. Do it again, huh? Yeah.

Pam 30:15

But so, but yeah, you just you kind of I mean, you think, you know, and it's funny, I don't think this young lady will watch this, but there's an adoptee that's she's close to my son's age, and he went to school with her, and she's she found her birth parents, and I know her adoptive parents, and you know, I I kind of always thought maybe I might be part of her searching, but she had someone else help her search, which kind of made me sad because I always thought, oh, I'll help her, but I didn't. And I've kind of watched her evolution of searching, and when she found her, I I don't know who the birth mother is, but I've watched her find the birth father, and the birth father was deceased, and I saw her start story kind of unfold, and the disappointment in her, you know, she just is so sad, and she's young, she's in her 30s, and you know, to to find that out, and she's a beautiful girl, and you know, she I I've seen pictures of the birth father, and she looks a lot like him, and you know that I can see that fantasy in her head, not fantasy, but what do you I don't know what it is? It's longing or whatever. And I know she wants to know who he is, you know, she misses that. There's still this huge part of her that's missing knowing him.

Sherrie 32:00

And I hate that is she on ancestry.com or anything like that. She could look at I don't I don't know.

Pam 32:09

She knows a lot of the family because it's they're all very close here in this town. So she knows most of the family. So, but you know, I I didn't meet my birth father either, you know, he was gone before I could meet him. So I know that feeling she's feeling, you know.

Sherrie 32:28

Yeah.

Pam 32:29

And I don't know if she talks to other adoptees, and I don't think she realizes that.

unknown 32:36

Yeah.

Pam 32:36

That's such a great resource.

Sherrie 32:38

We need each other. We need each other.

Pam 32:42

Yeah. Yeah. This age group doesn't realize what that what that resource is, you know. And I feel like we know that, and maybe it's because of our age, but by the time I was her age, I was heading towards that, you know, and I think, oh my gosh, you need that, you know, you need that, you know, so it would help you.

Sherrie 33:10

Yeah.

Pam 33:10

Yeah.

Sherrie 33:11

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it just I just hope that people will take away some takeaways from us for how we help their adopted children because you know, reaching us is not easy. No. I used to sit by the the my parents had a like a grill where the heat came out. Yeah. Near the dining room table. I used to sit by there and just curl up, and that's the only place where I could feel safe.

Speaker 4 33:48

Yeah, yeah.

Sherrie 33:49

And I wish that my parents would have said, oh, come over and sit with us. They didn't.

Pam 33:55

No, they don't, they it's like it's not there. They don't they don't know that we don't feel safe. They don't understand that. Yeah.

Sherrie 34:04

No, they don't. They don't understand that we are traumatized. They don't like to hear that.

Pam 34:09

No, no. Um, I I've seen pictures and I don't remember, I don't remember who pointed it out, but one of one of uh my adoptee friends, her body was like this in photos because she was so not you know comfortable. And I thought, oh, wow, I don't know that I would have noticed that's what it was until they said that. And I thought, oh wow, you're not comfortable. You're you you haven't bonded with this person, you know, you're not you're not close. And I I feel so bad, you know. We we're so afraid, we don't our trust is not there, and then you give all this trust to people and then they take it away, and then we don't want to trust anymore. Yeah you know, we're very not trustworthy, you know. So, or trusting, I should say not trustworthy, but not trusting of people, you know, we're very afraid. Yeah, so yeah.

Sherrie 35:16

It's a bear.

Pam 35:17

I know, yeah, it's it's sad. Yeah.

Sherrie 35:24

Well, I hope these young adoptees can come along, you know, and begin to educate themselves and right talk about adoption. Well, yeah, yeah.

Pam 35:38

And there there's so many more books for both parents and and and moms and adoptees to read that yeah, take advantage of that, you know. Yeah, way more than we could add, you know. For sure.

Sherrie 36:00

Yeah, yeah. Well, we're gonna work on a book together, right?

Pam 36:04

Yes, yes, for sure.

Sherrie 36:06

Yeah.

Pam 36:07

What do you think was the biggest change of for you, like either reunion or anything after finding, either even you know, finding Jeff or finding your mom? What do you think changed you the most? Do you think it was the reunion with your mom or just knowing, or do you think it made you more confident or more at ease, or do you think it even did that?

Sherrie 36:43

With my mom, no. I mean, I had to learn what forgiveness really meant. I know. You know, people say, well, forgive her. Well, you know, I had it took me a lot of years to learn what that really meant.

Speaker 4 36:59

Yeah.

Sherrie 37:00

And I know she was doing the best she could with what she had, and on and on and on. But with with Jeff, now what what was the question I just forgot? I had a second. I know.

Pam 37:13

I well, like I once we want before reunion, and then once you go into reunion, what how do you feel that changed you? Like having been in reunion, what do you feel like it changed? How it changed you?

Sherrie 37:30

I have confidence now. Yeah, I have peace like a river. Yeah. Peace like a river. It won't, you know, it's incredible.

Speaker 4 37:39

Yeah.

Sherrie 37:41

Even though, you know, getting old, health challenges and all that, I still have incredible peace. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, and what about for you? How did how did you feel after your I think the same.

Pam 37:59

I mean, I because before I wanted I wanted to know so much. I wanted to know who I look like.

unknown 38:06

Yeah.

Pam 38:07

You know, who I sounded like, who, you know, and even though, like you said, they're doing they're doing their best. And, you know, I it was there were rough times, but even at that, I knew where she was, you know, I knew she was there. I mean, she wouldn't tell me who my dad was, and that was still kind of rough. Oh, that's horrible. Yeah, it was rough. That was really rough. But, you know, I figured it out. But, you know, even knowing her was a huge step, you know.

Sherrie 38:47

But with holding our birth father's name, that is the worst. That is the worst. And I hope birth mothers will take this to heart.

Speaker 4 38:59

Yeah.

Sherrie 39:00

Because we need to know who both of you are. Yeah. Even if you don't like him, even if you want, you know, want nothing to do with him, right? We still need that information.

Pam 39:15

For sure. Yeah. Well, and you know I don't know why that's such a difficult thing to understand, but I think maybe sometimes given the situation, you don't we don't know what a birth mom went through. So, you know, that's hard. So and I understand that, but we need to know, regardless. Yeah. We need to know.

Sherrie 39:50

Well, you know, and more than anything, we're looking for the love of a father, right?

Pam 39:55

Yeah.

Speaker 4 39:55

Yeah.

Sherrie 39:56

And only the heavenly father can provide that for us.

Speaker 4 39:59

Right.

Pam 40:01

For sure.

Sherrie 40:01

Only the heavenly father, and you know, I I believe that is true.

Pam 40:09

I do too. I do too. I mean, yeah.

Sherrie 40:14

So, Pam, tell tell me how your mom is doing. Do you mind talking about it?

Pam 40:20

My adopted mom? Good. I mean, you know, dementia is such a cruel disease. You know, her falling lately. That's it's it's just an ongoing thing. I I mean, in this case, you know, it's the one time when you're glad that biology doesn't transfer. Yeah.

Speaker 4 40:48

Yeah.

Pam 40:50

But at the same time, you know, I don't know that I I don't think it's in my biological family, but doesn't mean I I can't have dementia, but she's she's doing okay, but it's like flipping a coin each day. I don't know which mom I'm getting when I go.

Sherrie 41:09

Yeah.

Pam 41:10

How she's gonna be.

Sherrie 41:12

Yeah.

Pam 41:13

I mean, today she told me that I told her she was dying, and I'm like, I did not say that. You just never know. It's it's a it's a cruel thing every day to go.

Speaker 4 41:26

Yeah, so yeah.

Pam 41:29

It's it's sad watching it, yeah, because you know it's it's this, you know.

Speaker 4 41:35

Yeah, yeah.

Sherrie 41:38

Well, yeah. I just, you know, I I hope that others will. I don't know if you're still interested in helping people with getting open records and stuff, but you know, you would be a wonderful resource for that. And all kinds of wisdom that you have, Pam, to offer to our audience. I'm sure you do other podcasts. I'd let you do it.

Pam 42:07

Sure, sure. Yeah, I mean, I'm not uh I'm not as good at it as I used to be, but and I'm sure there are people that are much better, but you know, anything I can help with, you know, I will do my best. And, you know, there are groups that that still have you know access and you know resources and you know, do conferences and things like that. So they're out there and but I'll do anything I can if anybody needs help.

Sherrie 42:44

Sounds like a plan.

Pam 42:45

Yeah.

Sherrie 42:46

Okay. Well, shall we sign off?

Pam 42:49

We sure, we sure can. Yep.

Sherrie 42:52

I love you, my friend.

Pam 42:54

Love you too.

Sherrie 42:56

Thanks for doing another podcast. Anytime. Okay.

Pam 43:00

All righty bye.