Feed Me Your Construction Content

Mastering Workplace Negotiation: Insights from Carolyn and Joshua McMahon

• Joshua & Carolyn McMahon • Season 3 • Episode 42

Share episode

We appreciate any and all feedback so feel free to send a text.

Unlock the secrets of workplace negotiation with insights from Carolyn and Joshua McMahon. Discover how to confidently discuss salaries and hiring strategies, even when you're feeling under the weather. Through engaging stories, we examine the fine line between potential and experience, offering practical tips on preparation and self-worth that are essential for both employers and job seekers.

As we anticipate 2025, it's critical to understand the strategic decisions that shape professional growth and organizational impact. Carolyn and Joshua delve into the contrast between management and leadership, emphasizing the importance of vision and documentation. Learn how to craft concise plans and navigate professional settings with informed negotiation tactics, all while understanding the broader challenges leaders face today.

Navigating uncomfortable conversations can be a game-changer for your career. We explore the power of investing in professional development and the art of asking for raises with confidence. Master the skill of maintaining composure during negotiations, whether it's through strategic silence or responding to employer feedback. These conversation skills not only advance careers but also enhance personal relationships, underscoring the lifelong journey of learning and growth.

Support the show

Carolyn can be found on LinkedIn at:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolyn-mcmahon-937b89158
Joshua can be found on LinkedIn at:
www.linkedin.com/in/joshuamcmahon15
Email for feedback, questions, complaints, etc:
mcmahonjoshua15@gmail.com

Daily Journal: https://amzn.to/41p9aKE

Speaker 2:

oh, I love that, I love that hey y'all, welcome back to another episode of feed me your construction content. I'm carolyn mcmahon and I am joshua mcmahon feeling any better today day eight of this stupid sickness, but I feel like I'm almost back I guess you're almost back is better than some people's 100, oh my god, yes, better than some people's 100%.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God, yes, better than most people's 100%. Give me a break.

Speaker 2:

Okay, okay.

Speaker 1:

No, I feel a lot better. It's good to be back. It's you know, not being at work because you're home sick really sucks, Because there's nothing you can do that brings you you any kind of joy. Or it's like I can't wait to get up today and sit in this chair all day and lounge because you feel miserable oh, I thought you just described one of my most perfect days.

Speaker 1:

I you know, we, I think we've always thought that that would be the case. I'm bored out of my mind sitting there and I just can't wait to get moving well, so I'm so glad that you have the podcast to go to. Exactly, that's exactly what I had to go to, so thank you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so we were motivated. Last week we talked about a follow-up to negotiations.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it was actually pushed by a listener the same listener who prompted last week's episode. He said why are you not talking more about negotiation? And duh, that's why we have these great listeners to tell us the most obvious things. You know, look, we bring the content, we bring the humor and the laughter and the learning. You got to tell us what you need and he did it. Negotiation this is probably the scariest thing for most people. I mean, I sat down with a candidate today. We is probably the scariest thing for most people. I mean, I sat down with a candidate today. We did an hour and a half long interview. It gets to the point where he's like well, not for the uncomfortable part, and you know what I'm looking for financially and he's rubbing his hands and he's looking for his words and I'm just like man just spit it out, Spit it out.

Speaker 1:

I've already set my extreme anchor. I've already said what my typical range is for this role that I'm hiring for. Now this individual is looking for probably 40% more than what I said. The range was Great. Good for you, Take your shot. But if you're not confident in taking your shot, then how do I look at you as a project manager? Taking your shot? Then how do I look at you as a project?

Speaker 2:

manager. I find it interesting that he kept going, even though what he wanted exceeded your range. Have you ever come across that and decided well, my range needs to be adjusted because the candidate is, I don't know, personable outgoing confident.

Speaker 1:

Very true, and I think this candidate in particular, there's something there. He has something that intrigues me. He's got a ton of potential. So what he's selling is not a bunch of experience, it's a lot of potential. And that's the kind of lottery ticket thing, right, it's like, hey, I'm going to buy this lottery ticket and it can really pay off, or it doesn't, but chances are good. I'm not going to go broke on this type of lottery ticket, right, I might lose a little bit of money as far as I overpaid for services, but I'm not going to go broke. He's not going to burn a house down or something of that nature.

Speaker 2:

Gosh, but I can imagine all the time invested.

Speaker 1:

Well, that's the part that I have to consider. When you think about a person with only a couple years of experience and you have to think about and you have to be honest with yourself Do I have the bandwidth to coach this individual to the level that they need for the price that they're asking for out the gate?

Speaker 2:

Okay, so we're talking about negotiations.

Speaker 1:

Yep.

Speaker 2:

So this candidate is negotiating this Again, you know, wringing his hands. Hey, the uncomfortable part. The elephant in the room Blah, blah, blah. So what would you say to a guy like that?

Speaker 1:

Look, here's the first thing that I said to even you this morning Be confident in what you want, be absolutely confident and sure of what you're asking for. Let me tell you the story. So when I negotiated that first time, I knew what I was asking for. I knew what I was being paid. I knew the work that I was doing. I had my documentation to kind of outline what I was accomplishing in my role, and I had my documentation lined up on what I was going to accomplish in the next year. So, regardless of how that negotiation went, if I was victorious and I earned what I was asking for, great. And if it didn't go the way that I wanted it to, that's great too, because I already had my objectives for how I was going to accomplish my goals in the coming year. So, no matter how it went, that's how I approached that negotiation. But I didn't say I'm looking for a $20,000 raise and $500 a month truck allowance. I said I'm looking for a 30% raise on a truck allowance. And the person on the other end, who is really good at math, he said 30%, that comes out to $22,000 a year and that puts you at this. And he's like, okay, well, what happens if I can't get it. I said I don't know, I haven't got that far. So you know, I hope we don't get to that point. But let's see Right. And here's the problem with that.

Speaker 1:

It worked out in my favor. Here's the problem with that. It worked out in my favor. I worked one more year. I got the increase in pay, everything that I wanted. But the issue with the way that I negotiated that was what if he said no, I can't get you that additional money? You're putting me in a position where I have to say yes or no and you're really pushing me to say no. It's lose-lose. Everybody loses. Because I would have left that negotiation table feeling defeated. You know I would have gone instantly to LinkedIn or Indeed or CareerBuilder or been calling that recruiter who's been pounding me in the message boxes every other day.

Speaker 2:

But is that the result of a no in most cases?

Speaker 1:

I think that's the result in if you set the tone of it's a yes or no.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

If the only option is yes or no, then you're either going to win and get what you wanted, or you're not going to get what you wanted, and then you're going to go find something else.

Speaker 2:

Hmm, wow.

Speaker 1:

Don't you think? Because if you set the negotiation table of this is a crossroads, if we can just be frank with each other, if you don't pay me $20,000 more a year, this is a crossroads. And what I'm hearing you say is I need to take the off, exit and move on to go somewhere else. Nobody's going to say that to their boss, but that is absolutely what you're saying, even if you don't realize you're doing it.

Speaker 2:

Yikes Really.

Speaker 1:

Don't you think?

Speaker 2:

I mean, I would imagine the deflated feeling you this kind of clause to your ass that you don't even know that you're doing. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1:

I don't think you have to have that clause. I think it's already understood.

Speaker 2:

Oh.

Speaker 1:

Because I, as the employer, if you come to me and say, hey, this is what I need, and I say, hey, I can't do that. In my mind, in the front of my mind, I already know that Carolyn's leaving, Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but Carolyn's leaving Because I have damaged well, this relationship is damaged in this moment. Whatever foundation we have now, there's a chip in the foundation.

Speaker 2:

Huh, I don't know, I'm just. Thoughts are just swirling around this empty head of mine.

Speaker 1:

Hmm, Okay, well, I think that's fair. So let's set the tone. Then You're going in for your annual review. You're going to review the previous year. You're going to review the previous six months. Whatever it is you're reviewing. How do you approach that and this is where you start is outline what you've accomplished in that last period. What have you accomplished? And here's the thing Don't tell me, if you're a construction manager or superintendent, you build houses. Don't tell me you built 10 houses. I'm going to tell you why. The reason why is the 1st and 15th. I've paid you for that service. That's what I pay you to do is build houses.

Speaker 2:

You know kind of the minimum standard.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I'm paying you to do that. Now you're saying you have to give me a 30% raise to do what you're already doing. Do you see how that logic doesn't work? So that's not going to work. So if you're your role, you're a design manager, and you come to me and say, oh well, I designed X number of homes. Okay, great, carolyn, I am glad to hear that you have accomplished your job.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, making a note, you're doing your job. Okay, got it.

Speaker 1:

That's exactly what you just said. I already know you're doing your job, so you don't have to waste our time saying it. If you weren't doing your job, this discussion would be a lot different, right, yeah? So instead, as a design manager, tell me what process changes have you made? How did it impact the flow of pre-construction? How did it improve the efficiency? How did it improve the accuracy of the selections? And, getting to the field, how did you improve the margin of our business? Tell me how you are impacting the business in a positive manner. Do you see the difference in that approach versus? I did my job.

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah, when you put it that way. Of course I showed up. I worked eight to five, you know, yes, there's a difference and I guess just the thinking, not really outside of the box, but you know, talking in that manner about your job, what you've done in addition and what you continue to do, Because I think a lot of strides that I made were very early in my tenure- Sure.

Speaker 2:

But we still feel those echoes today. It's like what I put in place, we're still benefiting from it today. It's like you know, can you still quantify that? Or you just have to be a rock star every six months.

Speaker 1:

No, because the higher you get in an organization, the smaller like the impact will still be big, but the number of things that you do to make that impact will decrease. You could do one thing in 2025 and that's the only thing you hang your hat on, but it made that much of an impact on the business.

Speaker 2:

Right, so, but as far as the person who's reviewing you or your, your boss or your supervisor, do you feel like they're constantly looking for that kind of oh well, you did that for me yesterday, what are you doing for me today?

Speaker 1:

I think it depends on the boss. If they're strictly a manager, then they're constantly looking for that type of result. If they're a leader, then they understand the big impact that you can make on a business.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so then a part of it is leadership.

Speaker 1:

A part of it is leadership, and if it's a manager and they're looking for that data rich type of stuff, you can overwhelm them with the data. We served X number of homes. This is the. This is the comparison to year over year. This is the increase in margin. This is the increase in how much selections that we've, we've chosen or we've upsold to our customers. This is how we've improved. You can give them all that data. A manager is looking for data-rich answers, so give them the data-rich answers, or her and a leader, you can do that other option. So you have to weigh is this a manager or is this a leader?

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

And managers, remember, are really just worried about driving production. They're all about numbers Leaders making a much different impact.

Speaker 2:

Okay, noted.

Speaker 1:

And the other thing I would be prepared to do is share the lessons learned this year. How are you going to apply it next year? Or in the six months, in the next six months? How are you going to apply it next year? Or in the six months, in the next six months, how are you going to apply it? Because what I want to hear is I want to hear your growth. Growth is worth money. Right, Potential is worth money. Results same results year over year. It's worth exactly what I'm paying you.

Speaker 2:

I mean.

Speaker 1:

I'd love to be paid for my potential. You can be if you sell it Exactly.

Speaker 2:

Okay, carry on, I'm still listening, I'm still intrigued.

Speaker 1:

Well, that's my first point. I think if you have that, you're well prepared and documented and everybody's different. For me, please, God, don't bring me a four page document. You need to have that thing bullet pointed half a page to one page at most, and it should be clear and concise, and if it's got to be more than that, then you're probably BSing me. That's the way that I look at it, but I'm different than other people. Okay, so don't hate me for it.

Speaker 1:

And then have a plan for 2025. We're ending 2024. We're going into 2025. What's your plan for 2025? What's your potential? Where are you going to grow and what impact are you going to make? Have that outlined?

Speaker 1:

If you're in a lower level position, you're just building homes or you're just the designer you're not the manager, you're not overseeing it fine, you don't need to worry about that. But if you're in a management role, you need to have some kind of plan. How are we going to do this? How are we going to manage this? I can see the forecast of what's coming, and here's the great thing about these plans is they don't have to be accurate. You're going off of the data as it is today, so it's as good as it can be for today. This is what I anticipate is coming. This is how I anticipate handling the situation. Your boss wants to know that you've got an idea, you can see things are coming and you're already planning for that to come down the pipe. Because what that tells me if I'm your boss or I'm your leader is that that's one thing I don't have to worry about.

Speaker 2:

Sure.

Speaker 1:

Because I do want to know what you can do for me, right? So we're solving problems and the problem you're trying to solve is mine. What's my problem as the boss? My problem is how the heck am I going to get all these people through the design? How am I going to get them to do this? How am I going to get the paperwork accurate? Have a plan, show me your plan and then I'm like check. Okay now, what about the sales department? How are these people doing? Okay, what about production? Then I can start moving down my list as I build my plan. So that's number two. Number one being prepared. Number two planning. Planning for the future. Number three this is where we talked. We opened the show and talked about this Know what you're going to ask for. I know I'm saying it in a way that I want it to sink in. You need to know what you're asking for.

Speaker 2:

Well, and then what we talked about at the very start is be prepared to not get it Maybe.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, just ask for it in a way. That's not Right. It's not an ultimatum.

Speaker 2:

Right, right, you know, give this to me and then the implied, or else.

Speaker 1:

Right. So if you go through those first two points and then you come and you, then you and here's the thing when you go through these points, stop and pause and give them the opportunity to speak. Don't don't read off your script and just try to get through it. You need the best tactic I can give you for negotiation and this is everything you do in your life is information. You need information. Information helps you determine the course of action for your next talk or whatever it is. So you might not win, so to speak, this negotiation, but if you gain valuable information that you can use on the next negotiation, then you did win. That goes for your homeowners, your trades, your county representatives. You need information, so collect that information. But number three, knowing what you're going to ask for, if you've got a salary in mind that you want to bump up to.

Speaker 1:

I don't like the idea of saying, oh well, market conditions are this, because I would ask you, how do you know what market conditions are? Do you talk to your counterparts? Because we're not supposed to talk to our counterparts about salary. That's taboo. You can't do that. Oh, did you talk to another employer? Were you considering leaving and you were looking for another option. Now I'm not going to ask you those questions, but I'm telling you what's going through my head. Is you're telling me the market conditions?

Speaker 2:

Okay, market conditions bad.

Speaker 1:

If you're going to use that as your talking point, you should have something to back it up. Don't just say market conditions, say, based on this article I read from this source, this is what I believe market conditions to be, because we know Richmond Virginia market conditions are this, and we know Northern Virginia is 45% more than this, so it's a completely different world. So if you quote me on something in Northern Virginia, well, go to Northern Virginia.

Speaker 2:

And then pay 40% more in housing and everything else.

Speaker 1:

Or more. So I'm not a big fan of market conditions. I think you should be negotiating based on potential, what you've accomplished and what you're going to accomplish, which is your potential. Lean on those things, Because who cares what the market condition is? You can create your own market. You're one of a kind.

Speaker 2:

Thanks, Boo.

Speaker 1:

Yes, so create your own damn market and stop worrying about what other people are doing.

Speaker 2:

Now listen. That was directed at me. That's not what I do.

Speaker 1:

It was not completely directed at you. It's directed at a lot of people, because I think a lot of us struggle with that. A lot of us worry. Don't overshoot your shot. This is where other people are. This is where the market is. Man, you're worth whatever. You can negotiate.

Speaker 2:

Well, and you know, self-reflection is not big on most people's list.

Speaker 1:

No, because we hate to acknowledge that we might not be as good as we think we are.

Speaker 2:

List no because we we hate to acknowledge that we might not be as good as we think we are. Well, and often, you know, you associate that with the salary that you're making and, if anything in the last couple of years, it taught us that those rules no longer apply. I mean, you are getting that kind of money and you weren't worth shit. It's because what the market condition demanded it.

Speaker 1:

You're saying me I'm getting that kind of money.

Speaker 2:

Now I'm looking at you, but that's not what I meant.

Speaker 1:

There are plenty of people that are being overpaid, correct, and you know good.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, good on them. So then you know, for those folks who are used to kind of that cola adjustment right.

Speaker 1:

Cost of living 3% bump and 3% bump in pay 3% bump in pay Fantastic.

Speaker 2:

Now listen. I was in mostly commissioned positions with very small salaries, and so I never got a raise in my base salary for 15 years.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, so you never had to deal with any of this, so I never had to deal with it. If I wanted to make more money, then I needed to sell more.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, so you never had to deal with any of this. So I never had to deal with it. If I wanted to make more money, then I needed to sell more.

Speaker 1:

That's right.

Speaker 2:

Or in a higher margin and what have you. So you know, when I first started receiving you know colas, I was like, wow, I just got a raise, I'm so happy.

Speaker 2:

And then you know, quickly, I was like oh well, that's not much you know to be bragging about, carolyn, but at the same time, I mean I was kind of satisfied, as sad as that may sound, it was an increase of which I was never used to, you know. And then what you taught me, it's like well, what is something else that you can potentially get that's not related to your salary?

Speaker 1:

That's exactly right, because there's another part of this where, if you do understand the profit and loss of the business and you understand where you are financially which most of us don't right we don't have access to the books, and that's okay. You can make some assumptions based on the target for this year was to do 100 homes. We're on track to do 80.

Speaker 1:

Okay, well then, clearly the projections are off by 20 odd percent, which means we're making less money than what we anticipated making. So you can use that data to realize there might not be the money you think there is in order to get that raise.

Speaker 2:

Right. So I think it's part of that, that overall awareness right If you go in there swinging a big whatever, saying that, and they're like. They look at you like are you completely unaware that we missed our target by 20 homes or you know, $15 million or whatever if you have to be one of those higher end builders? So to me, that demonstrates your complete lack of knowledge of what's going on around you, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's not self-awareness and again, that's something that you're going to go in there and that's going to turn people off. And I think this is the way that I would suggest you do. It is that if you can use that information you have I know we closed 80 homes or we're on track to close 80. We were projected to close 100. Clearly we're not having the year we thought we were going to have. The interest rates are high, it's difficult to sell homes, margins are tighter because of labor material. Whatever you put that out there, and what you're really doing is you're asking your employer, your boss, for information back, because you can say this stuff and you can acknowledge I can see that this didn't happen. So getting a bump in pay beyond COLA might not be in the cards and really, really, you're just opening the door for them to say, oh, you don't even have to ask the part about bump and pay, you can just leave, say what I said about we didn't have our projections, so money might not be as good as you know.

Speaker 2:

We projected and um, and then pause and not say but it was big enough, you could take a fancy vacation for your family of 18. Right, yeah, don't say that. Oh, okay.

Speaker 1:

But this gives the opportunity for the boss or employer to say yeah, you know, you're right, Financially we're not where we wanted to be, the year wasn't as good as we wanted it to be, which? Then? What does that tell you? What's that information? It's saying I can't or should not be asking for a raise right now because the money's not there. They're already telling me that maybe the money is not there, so pivot to something else. So what is something else that's important to you? We touched on this last week. Time off is very easy to give. It doesn't technically cost me anything. It doesn't hit my balance sheet. It's just I'm not going to have you for X days more than what I plan to have you for. Not the end of the world, though.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

So that's an easy one, I think, for you to negotiate. A great one for me that I would negotiate is some kind of leadership course, a leadership mastermind coaching.

Speaker 2:

Now, those items do cost.

Speaker 1:

They do cost, but we're able to write that stuff off differently on the books. There's not payroll taxes and other things that go along with it, right? Because remember, it's not just the $100,000 salary, it's also the taxes that come with it, then the medical and everything else. The employer is paying a hefty chunk of that money.

Speaker 2:

Right and I can imagine it would be something that is pertinent to the business.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's right. So if you're going to do something that's going to help you grow and it's going to help the business, well that's a win-win situation. It's very easy to negotiate that kind of stuff. So you could say I want to negotiate this $1,200 leadership course. I want to negotiate this coaching program is $1,200 for the year, 200 bucks a month. It's pennies at the end of the day, but these are ways that could 10x your career. It could 10x your time there at that company. Whatever there's potential growth in that that takes you long beyond one year.

Speaker 2:

Well and I guess that was almost too that ensures you're at the company longer, right? That kind of?

Speaker 1:

Oh man, you're right.

Speaker 2:

Right, that buy-in? Sure? Okay, I'll do this for you, but you know you need to stay with me for whatever.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'll do this program and I want you to sign a two-year contract. You're going to be here for the next two years, or whatever the case may be. I mean, really that type of money is not that much that maybe they don't worry about it, but for you it's like.

Speaker 2:

Servitude.

Speaker 1:

I'm locked up for one more year. I'm here. We both feel comfortable enough to invest in my future here with the company. That's a good feeling for everybody involved. So I think those are ways to negotiate for what you want. Maybe not get the money you want, but still get things that will create more opportunity for money tomorrow.

Speaker 2:

How about the Carolyn Day?

Speaker 1:

The Carolyn Day is great. I mean put that on the list.

Speaker 2:

I mean you know all hail Carolyn at the office.

Speaker 1:

Hey, good luck.

Speaker 2:

I think I'd have a couple supporters. The rest would call out sick.

Speaker 1:

Very true, very true, but I think it's worth a shot. I mean, you got to take your shot, baby. All right, the last thing, the last thing for me, and this is super difficult for just about every single person. And this is why it's difficult, because when I say something that I feel like is going to make people uncomfortable, it makes me really uncomfortable.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

And what do you do when you say something that's uncomfortable? What do you do? You keep talking. Okay, right Because you want to bury what you just said. You want to bury it in other stuff, which means I never gave you the opportunity to hear the uncomfortable thing. Silence is golden. You have got to practice getting comfortable with uncomfortable silence. Like now it feels a little uncomfortable, right.

Speaker 2:

I don't like it. I'm supposed to fill the void.

Speaker 1:

You feel compelled to fill the void yes. But if you reach out and you say, hey, I'm currently earning $80,000 a year and I'm looking for a raise that will put me at $105,000.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

That's all you do is just say it. How do you get confident with saying something that's uncomfortable like that?

Speaker 2:

Practice.

Speaker 1:

And you constantly say it over and, over, and over and over, to where it becomes so routine that it just rolls off the tongue.

Speaker 2:

But is it like the staring game that whoever looks away first loses? I mean, okay, so I'm in my review. Yep, I want a 25% raise and I go ahead and quantify it, cause I know you're not good in math and I say, you know, I feel like the work that I've done, x and my potential for Y. I need a $25,000 raise and we just sit here.

Speaker 1:

I think, I think, if you say I need.

Speaker 2:

I want, I deserve.

Speaker 1:

I like I'm looking for.

Speaker 2:

I'm looking for.

Speaker 1:

A 25% raise.

Speaker 2:

I'm looking for a 25% raise.

Speaker 1:

That's it, and be confident with what you just said.

Speaker 2:

Okay, but what's the after?

Speaker 1:

You're sitting here in an uncomfortable silence leave, leave let the employer, let your boss think about what's been just been said. You've said what you need to say. Okay, think of it as a tennis match. You just hit the ball over the net. What are you gonna run over there and hit the ball for him? The ball is in his court.

Speaker 2:

Leave it in his court he has very limited time to return it. Dear that.

Speaker 1:

That is not your problem. Okay, stop making everybody else's problem your problem. You have volleyed the question to their side of the court.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I've volleyed the question and then, after an uncomfortable silence of X time, Yep. I mean, I really want to quantify Is it 10 seconds, is it 30?

Speaker 1:

It could be 60. 60?. It could be 60. 60?, it could be 120.

Speaker 2:

You're just staring at each other for 60 seconds.

Speaker 1:

Could be, could be longer. I worked for a boss who you would say something, and it didn't even have to be anything uncomfortable. It could be like I need to use the bathroom. That dude would stare at you for a minute and a half and then he'd say yeah, no problem, go ahead.

Speaker 2:

Or he's saying I'm not your mother, you don't need permission. Oh my.

Speaker 1:

God. No, he couldn't make a decision.

Speaker 2:

He was so indecisive, zero confidence, but always wanted to make sure it was the right decision, so he looked like the smartest guy in the room Ridiculous. Let's go back to this. We're in the uncomfortable silence and I'm looking for a 25% salary increase.

Speaker 1:

Yep.

Speaker 2:

Okay, we're waiting. I'm looking at you, I'm smiling. Do I smile I?

Speaker 1:

think, just sit there and look confident.

Speaker 2:

Okay, you can't see it, but this is me looking confident.

Speaker 1:

Carolyn looks very confident. She's ready, waiting for a response.

Speaker 2:

I'm waiting. I mean look, this is real life. I'm waiting. My smile is beginning to waver.

Speaker 1:

So I think a couple things could happen. They're going to take their time and think about what you just said. Some people are going to rush to just give you an answer.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so let's rush to the answer.

Speaker 1:

If I rush to the answer, I might say you know, I don't think you're worth that kind of money. I don't see how you're bringing that much value. But then I have to be careful because that turns you off. And then now you're upset with me and now you're upset with the company, so I created a problem. I think the easy way out for the boss if they start squirming is to say I need time to process that.

Speaker 2:

Gotcha. So that's what I'm saying. So, for the person you have asked, you're now looking for the next volley, the next, because, remember, you're not trying to fill the silence, fill the void.

Speaker 1:

I want you to say something. I need some time to think about it. You just have to be patient and give them that time. That's all I'm saying. It's not. You've got to be patient. If you want to bust through glass ceilings and this is men and women you've got to be patient. You got to be confident in what you're saying. If you're not confident in what you're saying, then you're squirming and you're desperately looking for someone to break that silence. But if you're confident in what you're saying and you've done your homework and you follow these points that we've laid out, why are you not confident?

Speaker 2:

Oh, I'm going to be so confident.

Speaker 1:

But remember, one of the key things for negotiation is information. So in this gathering, you might learn that I can't get you to that dollar amount today, and your question could easily be what do I need to do in order to earn the kind of money that I'm looking for? What do I need to do differently, besides not work here, definitely besides not work here, because ultimately, it's about the growth. How do I grow into the person that I want to be here with this company? And I'll tell you a story of when I had a person say do you think I could be a production manager here? I said no, it will never happen. There's biases against you that will keep you from ever moving into a leadership role. You have to move on and go do it somewhere else. And he's like man. You're the only person that's honest with me. I said well, I know you have aspirations of doing more and I don't want you to just wait around for five or ten more years and then be pissed off and leave.

Speaker 2:

Right, well, I think you know we had touched on it before about you know I was joking that I'm in the twilight of my career and I want to coast. My boss today said that that was really funny. He's like he doesn't believe that in a second.

Speaker 1:

I know that that's exactly right. That's ridiculous.

Speaker 2:

It's your self-deprecating shtick right.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

But at the same time you're in a position that does have kind of this salary bubble right.

Speaker 1:

No, no, no. That's what I'm saying. You've got to create your own market.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I'm creating my own bubble.

Speaker 1:

You're looking at it from this small picture.

Speaker 2:

I think the picture, though, is created years and years of leadership for those telling you that your position Years and years of management. Right.

Speaker 1:

Telling you that glass ceiling over your head is true. Right, don't look, carolyn, just trust me. The glass ceiling is there. This is where you're going to go. The end, end of story. Well, how did those people get to the roles they're in? Because they didn't believe it. It's not men or women, or it's not women that only have glass ceilings. Everybody has a glass ceiling over their head.

Speaker 1:

No, I'm not saying that I know you're not, but other people do, will say the women have a glass ceiling. I don't believe that. I think we all have a glass ceiling, but you have to determine that I am worth more than what this title says. I'm worth.

Speaker 2:

But I think that it's an interesting shift because, like most of those, leaders managers, whatever they're above you, because they have been promoted right To that kind of next step that allows them to make more money they had to create that path to get to that role, though, right, it wasn't given to them. So what if you are happy in the position that you're in?

Speaker 1:

then be happy in it, be happy with the money you're making is there no room to create or carve out additional monetary gain? You no, no, I think you took me a different direction I did I don't believe.

Speaker 1:

being a sales manager or designer says this is how much money you make. I think that that's what society wants you to think and that's what the machine wants you to think. I'm telling you that what a designer does, or what a design manager does, is X, y and Z. If you do X, y and Z and then you also do these other six things that add value to the business, you're not doing a design manager role, you're doing a design manager plus. So then you're limiting yourself to this role, when you're actually this role that doesn't exist.

Speaker 2:

Ah, but two podcasts ago you said that it was okay to work like 14 jobs for one salary and you would encourage it.

Speaker 1:

I do encourage it, but is this not tying into that? I'm telling you to do it, but then know your worth and go get it. I see You're limiting yourself by saying I'm a design manager, this is what design managers make. I'm saying no that a design manager makes this for doing this. You're not doing just this. Oh wait a minute.

Speaker 2:

Wait a minute, Maybe. Maybe the point is you're saying to stop doing all that extra well, I'm saying one of the other I know, if you want to make more money, you've got to do more work you know what, that's all right oh, I mean, I'm really obviously'm interested, I'm engaged in this. The whole shut up part really has me thrown for a loop.

Speaker 1:

It's super hard, but listen, I want you to try it. Don't save it for when you're doing your review. Use it with your customers. When you make a statement, you say something, just stop talking. Let them answer the question. I had to listen to my boss talk today. I can't remember what it was that we were saying to the client, but it was something that made him very uncomfortable. When he gets uncomfortable, he does not stop talking. He'll ask seven different questions. He'll cut people off and I'm like would you shut up for one freaking minute and let the client answer the question? You're not here to show people how smart you are. You're here to solve the client's problem and you never let them speak, so you have no idea what their problem is. You've got to start using these negotiating tactics today with your clients, with your sub trades, with with your spouse with your spouse everybody that.

Speaker 1:

That's why I just let you keep talking, Cause I'm like she'll just talk her way into some other different question, and then that uncomfortable one I don't have to answer because we're onto something else.

Speaker 2:

Ouch.

Speaker 1:

You're not going to get better if I don't share with you the tricks on that note until next week maybe see, ya, yeah.

People on this episode

Contributor

Carolyn McMahon

Co-host
Contributor

Joshua McMahon

Co-host