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But what I need to do"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":453.48,"endTime":456.24,"body":"is, I need to understand how to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":453.48,"endTime":456.24,"body":"really do this better, not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":456.24,"endTime":459.12,"body":"better than the folks that you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":456.24,"endTime":459.12,"body":"know, aren't really open to me"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":459.12,"endTime":461.55,"body":"becoming part of their club."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":459.12,"endTime":461.55,"body":"It's the and then that was that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":461.55,"endTime":463.59,"body":"may have been a small cultural"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":461.55,"endTime":463.59,"body":"thing where I was at that point"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":463.59,"endTime":466.44,"body":"in time, but like they're"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":463.59,"endTime":466.44,"body":"actually had, they had some"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":466.44,"endTime":468.21,"body":"folks had a good point. It's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":466.44,"endTime":468.21,"body":"like, how do you take and I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":468.39,"endTime":470.31,"body":"think this is like the IT"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":468.39,"endTime":470.31,"body":"business alignment? How do you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":470.31,"endTime":474.3,"body":"take, you know, somebody who's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":470.31,"endTime":474.3,"body":"like hands on as close to the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":474.3,"endTime":477.81,"body":"customer the problem as"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":474.3,"endTime":477.81,"body":"possible, and get them to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":477.81,"endTime":482.01,"body":"contribute their knowledge"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":477.81,"endTime":482.01,"body":"towards something like a piece"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":482.01,"endTime":484.8,"body":"of software or whatnot, but do"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":482.01,"endTime":484.8,"body":"it in a way that's effective for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":484.8,"endTime":488.46,"body":"the organization. That's, that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":484.8,"endTime":488.46,"body":"reduces risk. And I think and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":488.46,"endTime":490.2,"body":"then going back to your supply"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":488.46,"endTime":490.2,"body":"chain, like that's the whole"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":490.2,"endTime":492.75,"body":"fundamental aspect of supply"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":490.2,"endTime":492.75,"body":"chain is stitching value"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":492.75,"endTime":497.64,"body":"together in a way that manages"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":492.75,"endTime":497.64,"body":"and mitigates non systematic"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":497.64,"endTime":500.43,"body":"risk? So I'll stop right there,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":497.64,"endTime":500.43,"body":"because that was what was going"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":500.43,"endTime":501.12,"body":"on. And I think it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":501.12,"endTime":503.4,"body":"good, because I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":501.12,"endTime":503.4,"body":"think it brings up two points"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":503.4,"endTime":507.75,"body":"that that I think about one is,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":503.4,"endTime":507.75,"body":"I think you said it really good,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":507.75,"endTime":510.63,"body":"like the it club meal. So your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":507.75,"endTime":510.63,"body":"perspective is they wouldn't let"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":510.63,"endTime":515.52,"body":"you in, in an a pre DevOps"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":510.63,"endTime":515.52,"body":"mindset. That was basically the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":515.52,"endTime":518.52,"body":"way the world worked, right?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":515.52,"endTime":518.52,"body":"Like, oh, no, no, no, we do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":518.52,"endTime":524.28,"body":"this, you know, and so, it was,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":518.52,"endTime":524.28,"body":"so it was so non software, so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":524.28,"endTime":526.92,"body":"non supply chain, right, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":524.28,"endTime":526.92,"body":"idea like, why would you not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":526.92,"endTime":530.64,"body":"work directly with the people,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":526.92,"endTime":530.64,"body":"you know, like, let us go buy"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":530.64,"endTime":533.64,"body":"the product for you? And we'll"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":530.64,"endTime":533.64,"body":"we'll just give it to you. And,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":533.64,"endTime":536.28,"body":"you know, don't we don't want"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":533.64,"endTime":536.28,"body":"your input? So it is it sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":536.28,"endTime":539.61,"body":"you're right, there was this it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":536.28,"endTime":539.61,"body":"club mentality? You know, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":539.61,"endTime":543.15,"body":"that's sort of why shadow it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":539.61,"endTime":543.15,"body":"created, and we can, I don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":543.15,"endTime":547.26,"body":"really want to talk about that."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":543.15,"endTime":547.26,"body":"But then I think the other I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":547.26,"endTime":549.93,"body":"think the other interesting"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":547.26,"endTime":549.93,"body":"thing was, you know, we had a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":549.93,"endTime":553.56,"body":"great opportunity, you know, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":549.93,"endTime":553.56,"body":"know, so in hindsight, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":553.56,"endTime":556.92,"body":"which, which is sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":553.56,"endTime":556.92,"body":"impossible, but like, there"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":556.92,"endTime":559.47,"body":"would have been a great"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":556.92,"endTime":559.47,"body":"opportunity to sit back and say,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":559.98,"endTime":564.18,"body":"like, why don't we think this as"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":559.98,"endTime":564.18,"body":"just another value supply chain."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":564.57,"endTime":567.06,"body":"And we literally had to go"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":564.57,"endTime":567.06,"body":"through this sort of war of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":567.06,"endTime":571.44,"body":"DevOps, to get to a place where"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":567.06,"endTime":571.44,"body":"even when I was doing DevOps in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":571.44,"endTime":574.59,"body":"the earliest days, I wasn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":571.44,"endTime":574.59,"body":"sitting there going, oh, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":574.59,"endTime":576.57,"body":"know, it's all based on Lean"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":574.59,"endTime":576.57,"body":"principles. 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But at least the sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":587.4,"endTime":591.3,"body":"of the, the mindshare that I was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":587.4,"endTime":591.3,"body":"sort of evolving with AI in the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":591.3,"endTime":593.85,"body":"early days, you didn't see a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":591.3,"endTime":593.85,"body":"whole lot of discussions about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":593.88,"endTime":597.15,"body":"oh, DevOps is, is an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":593.88,"endTime":597.15,"body":"implementation of lean. 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And, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":629.91,"endTime":634.08,"body":"I won't say clearly maps 100% in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":629.91,"endTime":634.08,"body":"our areas, but But I do think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":634.8,"endTime":637.41,"body":"you coming from a supply chain"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":634.8,"endTime":637.41,"body":"background and immediately not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":637.41,"endTime":640.38,"body":"looking at sort of, like, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":637.41,"endTime":640.38,"body":"can't do this, as opposed like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":640.41,"endTime":643.35,"body":"why aren't we doing that? So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":640.41,"endTime":643.35,"body":"that was a mouthful for me. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":644.13,"endTime":644.67,"body":"yeah, no,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":644.67,"endTime":647.34,"body":"I mean, I, you hit one"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":644.67,"endTime":647.34,"body":"thing there, you talk about like"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":647.34,"endTime":651.06,"body":"the early battles of like DevOps"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":647.34,"endTime":651.06,"body":"and agile, and he talked about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":651.06,"endTime":654.33,"body":"the, the industry like, AIDS,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":651.06,"endTime":654.33,"body":"it's hit me a couple times, and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":654.33,"endTime":657.84,"body":"I'm gonna try to say it. 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Because I'll get"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":667.71,"endTime":671.52,"body":"back to all technology is, is an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":667.71,"endTime":671.52,"body":"implementation of a human"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":671.52,"endTime":675.3,"body":"system. So why are we looking at"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":671.52,"endTime":675.3,"body":"how we manage human systems"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":675.3,"endTime":677.04,"body":"broadly through different"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":675.3,"endTime":677.04,"body":"domains?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":677.94,"endTime":680.52,"body":"That DevOps sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":677.94,"endTime":680.52,"body":"can open that but I think we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":680.52,"endTime":684.0,"body":"still sometimes lose? The"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":680.52,"endTime":684.0,"body":"broader but yeah, go ahead."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":684.03,"endTime":684.63,"body":"Definitely. No,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":684.63,"endTime":686.49,"body":"that's your point."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":684.63,"endTime":686.49,"body":"DevOps, I think DevOps like"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":686.49,"endTime":688.86,"body":"that, that kind of that that was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":686.49,"endTime":688.86,"body":"the first look, that was like,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":688.86,"endTime":690.99,"body":"as you're getting into it and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":688.86,"endTime":690.99,"body":"trying to meet you think about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":690.99,"endTime":693.27,"body":"AWS, everybody trying to solve"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":690.99,"endTime":693.27,"body":"this scale technical problem,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":693.27,"endTime":696.33,"body":"like that was really the first"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":693.27,"endTime":696.33,"body":"look at this thing. 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But, yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1256.64,"endTime":1261.5,"body":"I'm gonna dive into, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1261.65,"endTime":1264.65,"body":"when I first came on Red Hat I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1261.65,"endTime":1264.65,"body":"had been working with, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1264.65,"endTime":1267.56,"body":"the, I mean, very excited and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1264.65,"endTime":1267.56,"body":"still excited about this concept"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1267.59,"endTime":1270.35,"body":"of DevOps, automated governance."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1267.59,"endTime":1270.35,"body":"And, you know, we'll talk a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1270.35,"endTime":1273.35,"body":"little about it. 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What that you know, so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1539.66,"endTime":1541.88,"body":"that was, you know, I think it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1539.66,"endTime":1541.88,"body":"gone through a couple name"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1541.88,"endTime":1545.54,"body":"changes, but play goes, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1541.88,"endTime":1545.54,"body":"thing I saw the immediate value"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1545.54,"endTime":1551.45,"body":"in, in sort of my description of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1545.54,"endTime":1551.45,"body":"it was, it had an opinionated"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1551.45,"endTime":1554.84,"body":"interface, but a non opinionated"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1551.45,"endTime":1554.84,"body":"implementation, which was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1554.84,"endTime":1557.36,"body":"perfect for the automated"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1554.84,"endTime":1557.36,"body":"governance thing, like in other"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1557.36,"endTime":1561.11,"body":"words, like, there's some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1557.36,"endTime":1561.11,"body":"structure to how you would have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1561.11,"endTime":1565.7,"body":"to do this, to create different"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1561.11,"endTime":1565.7,"body":"workflows, you know, but that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1565.7,"endTime":1569.69,"body":"a small price to pay. But how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1565.7,"endTime":1569.69,"body":"you wanted to implement either,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1569.69,"endTime":1574.04,"body":"you know, you know, Jenkins, or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1569.69,"endTime":1574.04,"body":"bamboo or, you know, whatever,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1574.04,"endTime":1578.24,"body":"sort of, you know, Sona type,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1574.04,"endTime":1578.24,"body":"or, you know, whatever sonar"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1578.24,"endTime":1583.37,"body":"cube or sonar is whatever, the,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1578.24,"endTime":1583.37,"body":"you know, it didn't have an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1583.37,"endTime":1586.58,"body":"opinion about that, it allowed"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1583.37,"endTime":1586.58,"body":"you to, and I thought, wow, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1586.58,"endTime":1589.01,"body":"know, and, and it had the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1586.58,"endTime":1589.01,"body":"infrastructure of things, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1589.01,"endTime":1591.32,"body":"know, so, you know, they sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1589.01,"endTime":1591.32,"body":"get into a little bit of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1591.32,"endTime":1596.27,"body":"automated governance, the idea"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1591.32,"endTime":1596.27,"body":"was, you know, back in 2017,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1596.27,"endTime":1600.32,"body":"topple power, right, this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1596.27,"endTime":1600.32,"body":"brilliant blog article about how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1600.59,"endTime":1603.59,"body":"Capital One had done their"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1600.59,"endTime":1603.59,"body":"pipelines, and they talked about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1603.59,"endTime":1606.32,"body":"gates, you know, and then this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1603.59,"endTime":1606.32,"body":"idea of, like, there were these,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1606.35,"endTime":1608.63,"body":"you know, if you could prove as"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1606.35,"endTime":1608.63,"body":"a developer that you could"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1609.17,"endTime":1612.62,"body":"evidence, these type of things,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1609.17,"endTime":1612.62,"body":"and we gates, and in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1612.62,"endTime":1616.46,"body":"conversations, he was going to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1612.62,"endTime":1616.46,"body":"jeans, sort of forum paper"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1616.46,"endTime":1619.28,"body":"thing, and we got to know each"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1616.46,"endTime":1619.28,"body":"other, and I was like, wouldn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1619.28,"endTime":1623.3,"body":"that like, be a great place to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1619.28,"endTime":1623.3,"body":"put evidence, you know, at the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1623.3,"endTime":1627.38,"body":"stations? So we're in, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1623.3,"endTime":1627.38,"body":"I think it was 2019, we wrote a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1627.38,"endTime":1630.86,"body":"paper, you know, they were sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1627.38,"endTime":1630.86,"body":"of at governance about the sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1630.86,"endTime":1634.61,"body":"of active stationary data. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1630.86,"endTime":1634.61,"body":"it was, it was very loose, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1634.61,"endTime":1637.79,"body":"you know, you know, sort of some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1634.61,"endTime":1637.79,"body":"of the guys at PNC genre's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1637.82,"endTime":1641.33,"body":"Toski, they went out and started"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1637.82,"endTime":1641.33,"body":"building this their own. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1641.33,"endTime":1644.6,"body":"there was no sort of handoff to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1641.33,"endTime":1644.6,"body":"somebody, like, how do I start?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1644.72,"endTime":1647.84,"body":"Well, you're going to have to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1644.72,"endTime":1647.84,"body":"write a web hook architecture,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1647.84,"endTime":1650.87,"body":"you're going to have to sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1647.84,"endTime":1650.87,"body":"write something that captures"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1650.87,"endTime":1654.11,"body":"the sort of web hooks and then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1650.87,"endTime":1654.11,"body":"go to at the station data store."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1654.59,"endTime":1660.53,"body":"And to me ply ghosts, not only"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1654.59,"endTime":1660.53,"body":"solve the sort of interface"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1660.53,"endTime":1663.26,"body":"structure, but you'd even tell"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1660.53,"endTime":1663.26,"body":"me about things like, like, one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1663.26,"endTime":1666.44,"body":"of the things that you might do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1663.26,"endTime":1666.44,"body":"for evidence is, like, if you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1666.44,"endTime":1672.35,"body":"did a scan, or even sort of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1666.44,"endTime":1672.35,"body":"build logs, you could tar them,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1672.35,"endTime":1675.86,"body":"and then SHA them, and then turn"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1672.35,"endTime":1675.86,"body":"that into a digitally signed"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1676.04,"endTime":1680.99,"body":"evidence. And plug us would"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1676.04,"endTime":1680.99,"body":"like, have a directory structure"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1680.99,"endTime":1683.06,"body":"for those things. Those were"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1680.99,"endTime":1683.06,"body":"requirements as part of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1683.06,"endTime":1686.3,"body":"government. So all those things"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1683.06,"endTime":1686.3,"body":"like that somebody would have to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1686.3,"endTime":1688.85,"body":"build themselves before they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1686.3,"endTime":1688.85,"body":"even got into the automated"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1688.85,"endTime":1692.33,"body":"governance. Like, it seemed to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1688.85,"endTime":1692.33,"body":"me like that's, you know, sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1692.33,"endTime":1693.98,"body":"of fell in love with playgrounds"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1692.33,"endTime":1693.98,"body":"because of that."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1695.0,"endTime":1697.07,"body":"That's awesome. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1695.0,"endTime":1697.07,"body":"exactly. And you talked about,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1697.07,"endTime":1700.25,"body":"it's treating everything, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1697.07,"endTime":1700.25,"body":"know, it's, it's giving those"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1700.25,"endTime":1702.71,"body":"things first class citizen"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1700.25,"endTime":1702.71,"body":"capabilities. And that's the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1702.71,"endTime":1705.08,"body":"thing about the development"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1702.71,"endTime":1705.08,"body":"lifecycle itself. It's like that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1705.08,"endTime":1707.99,"body":"as part of the cycle. So give it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1705.08,"endTime":1707.99,"body":"a first class capability."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1708.29,"endTime":1710.75,"body":"So, so that, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1708.29,"endTime":1710.75,"body":"know, I was thinking about this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1710.75,"endTime":1712.91,"body":"just now, as you were talking,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1710.75,"endTime":1712.91,"body":"like, it's a good opportunity."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1712.91,"endTime":1717.32,"body":"So, you know, when when we first"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1712.91,"endTime":1717.32,"body":"first wrote the paper, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1717.32,"endTime":1720.23,"body":"so Google had introduced an open"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1717.32,"endTime":1720.23,"body":"source project called Graph"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1720.23,"endTime":1722.99,"body":"ehess, which was actually"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1720.23,"endTime":1722.99,"body":"designed for gestational data,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1723.14,"endTime":1725.93,"body":"but something they used"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1723.14,"endTime":1725.93,"body":"internally, although it was very"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1725.93,"endTime":1729.47,"body":"purposeful for the way Google"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1725.93,"endTime":1729.47,"body":"wanted to use it. And it was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1729.47,"endTime":1731.87,"body":"really only a reference"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1729.47,"endTime":1731.87,"body":"architecture was very small"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1731.87,"endTime":1735.53,"body":"lines of code. And, and I know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1731.87,"endTime":1735.53,"body":"on a couple of projects, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1735.53,"endTime":1738.86,"body":"tried to sort of get that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1735.53,"endTime":1738.86,"body":"working and nothing against the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1738.86,"endTime":1742.16,"body":"people support that project just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1738.86,"endTime":1742.16,"body":"for what we wanted to do in mass"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1742.16,"endTime":1744.89,"body":"scale for delivery and creating"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1742.16,"endTime":1744.89,"body":"at the stations for like, for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1744.92,"endTime":1747.35,"body":"every type of thing, like Did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1744.92,"endTime":1747.35,"body":"somebody you're appearing on a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1747.35,"endTime":1749.72,"body":"pull request? What was the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1747.35,"endTime":1749.72,"body":"evidence of the build? What was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1749.72,"endTime":1754.4,"body":"the evidence? It just didn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1749.72,"endTime":1754.4,"body":"scale? And then in parallel,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1754.43,"endTime":1757.88,"body":"another project, right, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1754.43,"endTime":1757.88,"body":"again, to Red Hat's credit,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1757.88,"endTime":1761.69,"body":"like, we build a lot of open"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1757.88,"endTime":1761.69,"body":"source tools, right? A project"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1761.69,"endTime":1765.11,"body":"called six star started. And,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1761.69,"endTime":1765.11,"body":"you know, mean, you sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1765.11,"endTime":1769.19,"body":"looked at it, you went deeper"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1765.11,"endTime":1769.19,"body":"into the technical side, but it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1769.19,"endTime":1773.15,"body":"took me about six star and why"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1769.19,"endTime":1773.15,"body":"it works and what what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1773.18,"endTime":1776.72,"body":"opportunities are for like, this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1773.18,"endTime":1776.72,"body":"idea of digitally signed"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1776.72,"endTime":1778.52,"body":"evidence or at the stations for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1776.72,"endTime":1778.52,"body":"audit."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1779.39,"endTime":1782.6,"body":"Yeah, the what I liked"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1779.39,"endTime":1782.6,"body":"about six, because six store has"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1782.6,"endTime":1787.28,"body":"itself is a sort of a it's an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1782.6,"endTime":1787.28,"body":"open PKI if you recall that, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1787.28,"endTime":1791.78,"body":"it's based upon same concepts"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1787.28,"endTime":1791.78,"body":"that that Let's Encrypt and know"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1791.78,"endTime":1794.72,"body":"and certificate transparency is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1791.78,"endTime":1794.72,"body":"based upon, but one other"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1794.72,"endTime":1797.15,"body":"component had was something"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1794.72,"endTime":1797.15,"body":"called a record, which is I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1797.15,"endTime":1800.36,"body":"think, bleep creek for record,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1797.15,"endTime":1800.36,"body":"which is of course it's Merkle"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1800.36,"endTime":1803.93,"body":"tree structure. So what you can"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1800.36,"endTime":1803.93,"body":"start to do is store your store"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1803.96,"endTime":1808.64,"body":"signed cryptographically signed"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1803.96,"endTime":1808.64,"body":"with keys from the sixth or PKI"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1808.91,"endTime":1812.33,"body":"inside the structure, and you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1808.91,"endTime":1812.33,"body":"can cryptographically validate"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1812.36,"endTime":1815.51,"body":"that what's been signed is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1812.36,"endTime":1815.51,"body":"tamper evident. And so first"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1815.51,"endTime":1817.85,"body":"off, you have two things first"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1815.51,"endTime":1817.85,"body":"with the sixth or product,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1817.85,"endTime":1819.59,"body":"because it's certificate"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1817.85,"endTime":1819.59,"body":"transparency. And so I'll"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1819.59,"endTime":1822.89,"body":"explain that for a second. Like"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1819.59,"endTime":1822.89,"body":"Let's Encrypt, I can go request"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1822.89,"endTime":1826.43,"body":"a private public key pair, I'll"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1822.89,"endTime":1826.43,"body":"get my key pair back, but then"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1826.43,"endTime":1829.88,"body":"the public key is posted for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1826.43,"endTime":1829.88,"body":"everybody to see. So sort of a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1829.88,"endTime":1832.52,"body":"line of defense to where if if"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1829.88,"endTime":1832.52,"body":"something was signed with my"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1832.52,"endTime":1836.72,"body":"private key, or one was issued"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1832.52,"endTime":1836.72,"body":"to me, and it was signed, but I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1836.72,"endTime":1839.39,"body":"didn't actually request it. Now"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1836.72,"endTime":1839.39,"body":"I know, I've been for some"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1839.39,"endTime":1843.05,"body":"reason somebody got a hold of my"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1839.39,"endTime":1843.05,"body":"identity. And it's tying that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1843.05,"endTime":1846.65,"body":"everything back to an identity,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1843.05,"endTime":1846.65,"body":"which is, which is key and then"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1846.77,"endTime":1849.08,"body":"store itself, I believe it used"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1846.77,"endTime":1849.08,"body":"to be 20 minutes, I believe it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1849.08,"endTime":1851.57,"body":"still is 20 minutes, like the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1849.08,"endTime":1851.57,"body":"key pairs are only valid for 20"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1851.57,"endTime":1854.84,"body":"minutes. So the idea is not to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1851.57,"endTime":1854.84,"body":"give these long live Key Pairs"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1854.84,"endTime":1857.99,"body":"just to give long enough, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1854.84,"endTime":1857.99,"body":"you also now have that history,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1857.99,"endTime":1860.96,"body":"we can go back and see, okay,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1857.99,"endTime":1860.96,"body":"here's what the public key was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1860.96,"endTime":1863.39,"body":"signed with, who was it issued"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1860.96,"endTime":1863.39,"body":"to, and you could track things"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1863.39,"endTime":1867.26,"body":"back to an identity, which is,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1863.39,"endTime":1867.26,"body":"you know, very important if you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1867.26,"endTime":1870.56,"body":"enter zero trust concepts. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1867.26,"endTime":1870.56,"body":"then you have the recourse of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1870.56,"endTime":1873.05,"body":"the things I can say the records"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1870.56,"endTime":1873.05,"body":"of what I signed can be stored"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1873.05,"endTime":1875.78,"body":"in there. And what I like about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1873.05,"endTime":1875.78,"body":"record what we found good, which"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1875.78,"endTime":1879.08,"body":"was different from a little bit"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1875.78,"endTime":1879.08,"body":"different than graph ehess Was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1879.08,"endTime":1882.35,"body":"that we took the evidence, so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1879.08,"endTime":1882.35,"body":"say, the outputs, we would if we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1882.35,"endTime":1884.78,"body":"didn't get an output from"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1882.35,"endTime":1884.78,"body":"something like GitHub or GitLab,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1884.78,"endTime":1888.62,"body":"or sonar cube, we could create"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1884.78,"endTime":1888.62,"body":"an output automatically. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1888.62,"endTime":1892.61,"body":"then we would hash it and sign"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1888.62,"endTime":1892.61,"body":"it. And then that we create a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1892.61,"endTime":1895.88,"body":"record of that with the the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1892.61,"endTime":1895.88,"body":"private key, the private key, we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1895.88,"endTime":1899.45,"body":"sign there, we create a record"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1895.88,"endTime":1899.45,"body":"of it inside of record. And then"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1899.45,"endTime":1902.96,"body":"we take just that that tar, that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1899.45,"endTime":1902.96,"body":"tar bundle and just said little"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1902.96,"endTime":1905.75,"body":"zip file, and stick it somewhere"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1902.96,"endTime":1905.75,"body":"where it doesn't matter. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1905.75,"endTime":1908.78,"body":"what happened is we didn't have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1905.75,"endTime":1908.78,"body":"to figure out how do we protect"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1908.78,"endTime":1911.78,"body":"and keep things from being"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1908.78,"endTime":1911.78,"body":"tampered with? Because now we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1911.78,"endTime":1914.36,"body":"have something that's tamper"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1911.78,"endTime":1914.36,"body":"evident. I think that's the big"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1914.36,"endTime":1916.4,"body":"key when people try like, Okay,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1914.36,"endTime":1916.4,"body":"we got to figure out how to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1916.4,"endTime":1919.01,"body":"protect this from being tampered"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1916.4,"endTime":1919.01,"body":"with. It's like, okay, if you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1919.01,"endTime":1921.56,"body":"tamper with it, what's the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1919.01,"endTime":1921.56,"body":"impact of our business, frankly,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1921.56,"endTime":1924.14,"body":"none. But at that point in time,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1921.56,"endTime":1924.14,"body":"we want to know that we can't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1924.14,"endTime":1927.92,"body":"trust whatever that body of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1924.14,"endTime":1927.92,"body":"evidence is anymore. And so then"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1927.92,"endTime":1930.47,"body":"we have to do some other"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1927.92,"endTime":1930.47,"body":"procedure. And so that's where"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1930.65,"endTime":1932.96,"body":"the record store came in. They"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1930.65,"endTime":1932.96,"body":"have two other things, one"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1932.96,"endTime":1936.41,"body":"called Full CEO and CO sign of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1932.96,"endTime":1936.41,"body":"its to their components. Full"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1936.41,"endTime":1940.91,"body":"CEO, I think is the open root"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1936.41,"endTime":1940.91,"body":"cert and then co signers, for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1940.91,"endTime":1944.33,"body":"signing containers based on the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1940.91,"endTime":1944.33,"body":"OCI image. But it's sort of that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1944.36,"endTime":1948.05,"body":"ecosystem of being able to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1944.36,"endTime":1948.05,"body":"create transparency. And as I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1948.05,"endTime":1950.0,"body":"like to talk about, like sort of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1948.05,"endTime":1950.0,"body":"doing blockchain without"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1950.03,"endTime":1952.37,"body":"Yeah, that was the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1950.03,"endTime":1952.37,"body":"thing. Because I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1952.37,"endTime":1955.52,"body":"originally the original"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1952.37,"endTime":1955.52,"body":"conversation I had had with, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1955.52,"endTime":1957.65,"body":"know, the group of people that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1955.52,"endTime":1957.65,"body":"were originally sort of starting"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1957.65,"endTime":1960.68,"body":"this, like, what can we do with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1957.65,"endTime":1960.68,"body":"this evidence, you know, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1960.68,"endTime":1963.23,"body":"through blockchain, and then we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1960.68,"endTime":1963.23,"body":"found that like, a number of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1963.23,"endTime":1966.41,"body":"problems with Blockchain in the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1963.23,"endTime":1966.41,"body":"enterprise, which was, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1966.41,"endTime":1969.5,"body":"usually got some group within"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1966.41,"endTime":1969.5,"body":"certain financial, like, who's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1969.5,"endTime":1971.75,"body":"doing blockchain, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1969.5,"endTime":1971.75,"body":"that's ours, you know, next"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1971.75,"endTime":1974.27,"body":"thing, you can't you weren't,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1971.75,"endTime":1974.27,"body":"but second, it was more of a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1974.27,"endTime":1978.44,"body":"hammer, you know, to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1974.27,"endTime":1978.44,"body":"sledgehammer to sort of, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1978.44,"endTime":1982.1,"body":"know, swat a fly. Right. And,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1978.44,"endTime":1982.1,"body":"and then it, you know, the thing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1982.1,"endTime":1986.57,"body":"I liked about about Riccar, and,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1982.1,"endTime":1986.57,"body":"you know, sort of six star"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1986.57,"endTime":1989.9,"body":"Riccar, which is the Merkle"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1986.57,"endTime":1989.9,"body":"tree, which is really sort of a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1989.9,"endTime":1994.31,"body":"very sort of an easier"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1989.9,"endTime":1994.31,"body":"implementation of what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1994.31,"endTime":1997.43,"body":"blockchain does, because the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1994.31,"endTime":1997.43,"body":"Merkel tree itself, is an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1997.43,"endTime":2000.79,"body":"immutable structure. So is that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1997.43,"endTime":2000.79,"body":"having a blockchain and correct"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2000.79,"endTime":2003.67,"body":"me if I'm, like, totally off,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2000.79,"endTime":2003.67,"body":"but the blockchain is like this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2003.67,"endTime":2006.16,"body":"sort of list of digital"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2003.67,"endTime":2006.16,"body":"signatures that's in sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2006.49,"endTime":2009.79,"body":"that can't be broken? Well, if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2006.49,"endTime":2009.79,"body":"you had all those digital"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2009.79,"endTime":2012.94,"body":"signatures in a Merkel tree,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2009.79,"endTime":2012.94,"body":"it's the same thing. If anything"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2012.94,"endTime":2014.95,"body":"in that sort of Merkel tree is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2012.94,"endTime":2014.95,"body":"broken, the whole thing's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2014.95,"endTime":2018.79,"body":"broken. And it's not, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2014.95,"endTime":2018.79,"body":"not trustworthy."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2019.39,"endTime":2021.58,"body":"Exactly. It's open"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2019.39,"endTime":2021.58,"body":"trust. I used to think about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2021.58,"endTime":2023.74,"body":"sort of like what blockchain is,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2021.58,"endTime":2023.74,"body":"at the end of the day is a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2023.74,"endTime":2026.8,"body":"distributed ledger. This is you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2023.74,"endTime":2026.8,"body":"know, something like $6 not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2026.8,"endTime":2030.19,"body":"distributed, like blockchain"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2026.8,"endTime":2030.19,"body":"depends upon having community"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2030.19,"endTime":2035.68,"body":"participants to take on the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2030.19,"endTime":2035.68,"body":"computing and supporting of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2035.68,"endTime":2039.61,"body":"actual the system. Holy"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2035.68,"endTime":2039.61,"body":"speaking, six store doesn't, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2039.61,"endTime":2042.43,"body":"it provides that same"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2039.61,"endTime":2042.43,"body":"transparency capability provides"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2042.43,"endTime":2046.57,"body":"transparency, and cryptographic"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2042.43,"endTime":2046.57,"body":"validation of that transparency."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2046.9,"endTime":2049.69,"body":"And so like, and I think that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2046.9,"endTime":2049.69,"body":"that's key for any organizations"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2049.69,"endTime":2051.46,"body":"who are looking at doing this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2049.69,"endTime":2051.46,"body":"kind of stuff, it's like, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2051.46,"endTime":2055.24,"body":"blockchain has a lot of fun"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2051.46,"endTime":2055.24,"body":"things to play with. But if you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2055.24,"endTime":2057.88,"body":"if you do, but if you set up"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2055.24,"endTime":2057.88,"body":"your own blockchain, but you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2057.88,"endTime":2060.1,"body":"don't have any other community"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2057.88,"endTime":2060.1,"body":"participants, besides your own"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2060.1,"endTime":2065.11,"body":"servers, it really blockchain"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2060.1,"endTime":2065.11,"body":"based so it is, yeah."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2065.95,"endTime":2067.96,"body":"So we, you know, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2065.95,"endTime":2067.96,"body":"started, you know, one of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2067.96,"endTime":2073.0,"body":"things I love about you know, so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2067.96,"endTime":2073.0,"body":"to your you know, your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2073.0,"endTime":2076.57,"body":"enthusiasm, you know, is that so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2073.0,"endTime":2076.57,"body":"I feel like I lit a fire under"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2076.57,"endTime":2079.66,"body":"you on this automated"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2076.57,"endTime":2079.66,"body":"governance, you know, like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2079.66,"endTime":2082.81,"body":"had been doing sort of the dead"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2079.66,"endTime":2082.81,"body":"sword stuff, which was really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2082.81,"endTime":2086.23,"body":"good. And it was sort of almost"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2082.81,"endTime":2086.23,"body":"everything that I, you know, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2086.23,"endTime":2088.21,"body":"I came in and started telling"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2086.23,"endTime":2088.21,"body":"you about, let me tell you about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2088.21,"endTime":2092.41,"body":"what we've been trying to do."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2088.21,"endTime":2092.41,"body":"And, you know, it seems like now"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2092.41,"endTime":2095.14,"body":"you've been come a really good,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2092.41,"endTime":2095.14,"body":"you know, strong evangelist for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2095.14,"endTime":2097.78,"body":"this DevOps, automated"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2095.14,"endTime":2097.78,"body":"governance. So, we're, I guess"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2097.78,"endTime":2100.81,"body":"we're, yeah, I think people have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2097.78,"endTime":2100.81,"body":"told us something times is that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2100.84,"endTime":2103.15,"body":"when you use that phrase"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2100.84,"endTime":2103.15,"body":"automated governance,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2103.66,"endTime":2107.32,"body":"traditional security people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2103.66,"endTime":2107.32,"body":"think you know of, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2107.32,"endTime":2111.1,"body":"sort of older products where"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2107.32,"endTime":2111.1,"body":"sometimes we refer modern"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2111.1,"endTime":2114.97,"body":"governance. But give us a quick"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2111.1,"endTime":2114.97,"body":"overview what your thoughts are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2114.97,"endTime":2118.57,"body":"about this sort of modern"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2114.97,"endTime":2118.57,"body":"governance or automated, sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2118.57,"endTime":2119.29,"body":"made it go with us."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2119.62,"endTime":2124.48,"body":"Yeah, I mean, that's a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2119.62,"endTime":2124.48,"body":"Kobe, my thoughts is, like the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2124.48,"endTime":2127.39,"body":"it club I talked about earlier,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2124.48,"endTime":2127.39,"body":"that was always the rhetorical"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2127.39,"endTime":2129.31,"body":"thing. 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So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2145.45,"endTime":2148.42,"body":"that's why I like the concept of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2145.45,"endTime":2148.42,"body":"modern governance, like when you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2148.42,"endTime":2151.54,"body":"and I started talking, it was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2148.42,"endTime":2151.54,"body":"and I don't want to about shadow"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2151.54,"endTime":2154.0,"body":"it. But at the end of the day,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2151.54,"endTime":2154.0,"body":"like there's people out there"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2154.0,"endTime":2156.28,"body":"who are great are calling the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2154.0,"endTime":2156.28,"body":"great mechanics that don't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2156.28,"endTime":2158.23,"body":"really have the engineering"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2156.28,"endTime":2158.23,"body":"backgrounds, the meat and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2158.23,"endTime":2162.01,"body":"potatoes, people that that have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2158.23,"endTime":2162.01,"body":"just enough technical knowledge,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2162.31,"endTime":2166.3,"body":"to build some valuable piece of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2162.31,"endTime":2166.3,"body":"software for an organization."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2166.99,"endTime":2169.48,"body":"But the biggest hurdle to move"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2166.99,"endTime":2169.48,"body":"it through security compliance."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2169.51,"endTime":2171.37,"body":"That's why I like about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2169.51,"endTime":2171.37,"body":"automated modern governance and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2171.37,"endTime":2175.39,"body":"moving from implicit to explicit"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2171.37,"endTime":2175.39,"body":"governance, they themselves may"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2175.39,"endTime":2177.91,"body":"not know what's going on, I look"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2175.39,"endTime":2177.91,"body":"at a sort of like middleware for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2177.91,"endTime":2180.52,"body":"a process. 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Am I still doing the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2251.59,"endTime":2254.26,"body":"things I need to do to ensure"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2254.26,"endTime":2256.51,"body":"that like, even if you aren't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2254.26,"endTime":2256.51,"body":"making changes to the pieces of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2256.51,"endTime":2259.78,"body":"software is not become a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2256.51,"endTime":2259.78,"body":"security factor or a compliance"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2259.78,"endTime":2262.84,"body":"vector anymore. And it is not in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2259.78,"endTime":2262.84,"body":"the need to be fixed. And that's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2262.84,"endTime":2265.69,"body":"what I liked about it. Because"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2262.84,"endTime":2265.69,"body":"like, for my background, so that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2265.69,"endTime":2268.33,"body":"meat potatoes just like wanting"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2265.69,"endTime":2268.33,"body":"just to write software, even"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2268.33,"endTime":2270.07,"body":"though it's probably the most"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2268.33,"endTime":2270.07,"body":"horribly written stuff, if I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2270.07,"endTime":2272.8,"body":"went back and looked at what I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2270.07,"endTime":2272.8,"body":"wrote, I would probably cringe."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2273.1,"endTime":2276.67,"body":"But the end of the day, like, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2273.1,"endTime":2276.67,"body":"delivered value to 1000s of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2276.67,"endTime":2280.66,"body":"people across large swaths of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2276.67,"endTime":2280.66,"body":"organizations that did billions"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2280.66,"endTime":2284.38,"body":"of dollars of business. 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Because we have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2320.92,"endTime":2325.66,"body":"different people you're trying"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2320.92,"endTime":2325.66,"body":"to collaborate on, like, what is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2325.66,"endTime":2331.6,"body":"this particular reg number of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2325.66,"endTime":2331.6,"body":"psi DSS or something in this?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2331.66,"endTime":2335.59,"body":"What does it really mean? 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We trust that there's,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2381.34,"endTime":2384.52,"body":"there's some mechanisms that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2384.52,"endTime":2391.66,"body":"move it to the Spencer, we get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2384.52,"endTime":2391.66,"body":"to that place and, and really,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2391.66,"endTime":2394.06,"body":"then is the sort of transaction"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2391.66,"endTime":2394.06,"body":"between risk operation"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2394.06,"endTime":2397.87,"body":"Development says Do we agree"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2394.06,"endTime":2397.87,"body":"that there's a trusted source of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2397.87,"endTime":2401.02,"body":"this information? And do we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2397.87,"endTime":2401.02,"body":"agree that this particular set"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2401.02,"endTime":2405.01,"body":"of, you know, stances or, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2401.02,"endTime":2405.01,"body":"know, yellow code or whatever,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2405.67,"endTime":2410.11,"body":"will basically get us as close"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2405.67,"endTime":2410.11,"body":"as we can to, you know that. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2410.14,"endTime":2413.65,"body":"and then we sort of remove all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2410.14,"endTime":2413.65,"body":"that nonsense. 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Right, like and all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2670.12,"endTime":2672.37,"body":"those things, right? No, it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2670.12,"endTime":2672.37,"body":"doesn't tell you any of that."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2672.37,"endTime":2675.79,"body":"Because that's not what it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2672.37,"endTime":2675.79,"body":"designed to. So yes, allowing me"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2675.79,"endTime":2679.78,"body":"to understand a better software"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2675.79,"endTime":2679.78,"body":"Bill material at a high level is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2679.78,"endTime":2683.77,"body":"great. But thinking that that by"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2679.78,"endTime":2683.77,"body":"itself solves all the sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2683.77,"endTime":2689.92,"body":"the cyber threat problems is I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2683.77,"endTime":2689.92,"body":"just think I worry about the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2689.92,"endTime":2691.24,"body":"over rotation of that."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2691.99,"endTime":2693.97,"body":"I'm there with you, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2691.99,"endTime":2693.97,"body":"think is the over rotation mean"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2694.0,"endTime":2695.92,"body":"ever since some of the solar"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2694.0,"endTime":2695.92,"body":"winds and things that are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2695.92,"endTime":2698.65,"body":"happening now that people do"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2695.92,"endTime":2698.65,"body":"that mean the success and the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2698.65,"endTime":2702.91,"body":"prevalence of of being able to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2698.65,"endTime":2702.91,"body":"like not having to actually"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2704.89,"endTime":2707.2,"body":"actually attack you as an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2704.89,"endTime":2707.2,"body":"organization, all I got to do is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2707.2,"endTime":2710.62,"body":"just go downstream a little bit"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2707.2,"endTime":2710.62,"body":"inject a couple pieces of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2710.62,"endTime":2713.23,"body":"skirmishes here"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2710.62,"endTime":2713.23,"body":"Yeah. To be. And so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2713.23,"endTime":2715.63,"body":"it's, it's over"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2713.23,"endTime":2715.63,"body":"rotation but like that's why I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2715.63,"endTime":2719.44,"body":"like you know my been limping on"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2715.63,"endTime":2719.44,"body":"me doing like sit down look at"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2719.44,"endTime":2721.84,"body":"how like a proper supply chain"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2719.44,"endTime":2721.84,"body":"works when I say a proper supply"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2721.84,"endTime":2725.68,"body":"chain look at a physical good"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2721.84,"endTime":2725.68,"body":"and look at how they secure and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2725.68,"endTime":2728.5,"body":"validating security, I will"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2725.68,"endTime":2728.5,"body":"argue is just a form of quality,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2728.5,"endTime":2732.19,"body":"I look at quality as the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2728.5,"endTime":2732.19,"body":"overriding term and security and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2732.43,"endTime":2735.79,"body":"compliance are just forms of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2732.43,"endTime":2735.79,"body":"quality. And look at how quality"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2735.79,"endTime":2738.67,"body":"is validated in a supply chain"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2735.79,"endTime":2738.67,"body":"and and not specifically a value"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2738.67,"endTime":2741.19,"body":"chain just not within an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2738.67,"endTime":2741.19,"body":"organization but within a true"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2741.19,"endTime":2745.12,"body":"supply chain between disparate"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2741.19,"endTime":2745.12,"body":"parties. And then look at also"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2745.12,"endTime":2748.72,"body":"sensitive supply chains and how"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2745.12,"endTime":2748.72,"body":"people manage sensitive supply"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2748.72,"endTime":2751.12,"body":"chains. I think once you start"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2748.72,"endTime":2751.12,"body":"looking at that and start"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2751.12,"endTime":2753.34,"body":"saying, Okay, how do we apply"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2751.12,"endTime":2753.34,"body":"those concepts and those"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2753.85,"endTime":2756.37,"body":"Hillstone on the physical"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2753.85,"endTime":2756.37,"body":"exchange of goods with what's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2756.37,"endTime":2759.79,"body":"happening in the email exchange"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2756.37,"endTime":2759.79,"body":"of bits and bytes, then S bomb"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2759.79,"endTime":2763.0,"body":"will take on a different a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2759.79,"endTime":2763.0,"body":"different view. Because like to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2763.0,"endTime":2764.89,"body":"your point, like I'm seeing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2763.0,"endTime":2764.89,"body":"people trying to fit everything"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2764.89,"endTime":2767.26,"body":"and ask people just looking at"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2764.89,"endTime":2767.26,"body":"Spam was a bucket to dump"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2767.26,"endTime":2771.34,"body":"everything about their piece of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2767.26,"endTime":2771.34,"body":"software. And that's not what it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2771.34,"endTime":2774.22,"body":"is it was if it's trying to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2771.34,"endTime":2774.22,"body":"solve everything, then it is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2774.22,"endTime":2777.79,"body":"actually not a solution for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2774.22,"endTime":2777.79,"body":"anything. And so it's like,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2777.79,"endTime":2779.86,"body":"okay, let's use it for a bill"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2777.79,"endTime":2779.86,"body":"materialist talk about that,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2779.86,"endTime":2783.1,"body":"let's get down to okay, what's a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2779.86,"endTime":2783.1,"body":"composed of where did it come"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2783.1,"endTime":2785.95,"body":"from? Man? And the question is,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2783.1,"endTime":2785.95,"body":"should even where it came from"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2785.95,"endTime":2790.06,"body":"be in the s bomb, because we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2785.95,"endTime":2790.06,"body":"talked about specifications. If"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2790.09,"endTime":2792.97,"body":"I have something that's an mp3"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2790.09,"endTime":2792.97,"body":"bowl, like there is actually"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2792.97,"endTime":2795.7,"body":"different systems called"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2792.97,"endTime":2795.7,"body":"supplier management systems that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2795.7,"endTime":2798.04,"body":"determine you know, where you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2795.7,"endTime":2798.04,"body":"can get your components from. So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2798.04,"endTime":2801.34,"body":"you can create a graph,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2798.04,"endTime":2801.34,"body":"ultimately a graph of what it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2801.34,"endTime":2805.18,"body":"looks like, of the reality of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2801.34,"endTime":2805.18,"body":"your state of an application,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2805.33,"endTime":2807.58,"body":"which is really where I think"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2805.33,"endTime":2807.58,"body":"people are going, they're using"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2807.58,"endTime":2813.16,"body":"the term s bomb, to describe"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2807.58,"endTime":2813.16,"body":"some graph that decided to cut"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2813.16,"endTime":2816.25,"body":"that has like, a declaration of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2813.16,"endTime":2816.25,"body":"what your piece of software is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2816.28,"endTime":2818.86,"body":"No, and I think we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2816.28,"endTime":2818.86,"body":"got the we're pointing in the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2818.86,"endTime":2821.23,"body":"right direction. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2818.86,"endTime":2821.23,"body":"again, to give our industry"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2821.23,"endTime":2825.1,"body":"credit, you know, the, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2821.23,"endTime":2825.1,"body":"cyanotypes in the J frogs, and,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2825.34,"endTime":2829.81,"body":"you know, I've been, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2825.34,"endTime":2829.81,"body":"hovering around, you know, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2829.81,"endTime":2832.78,"body":"know, giving us better Intel in,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2829.81,"endTime":2832.78,"body":"you know, I won't say at the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2832.78,"endTime":2836.14,"body":"level of a graph, although they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2832.78,"endTime":2836.14,"body":"would probably say it was, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2836.23,"endTime":2838.24,"body":"we're, you know, we've got all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2836.23,"endTime":2838.24,"body":"the ingredients to get in right"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2838.24,"endTime":2841.27,"body":"there. And I just, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2838.24,"endTime":2841.27,"body":"sometimes in our industry, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2841.27,"endTime":2845.02,"body":"sort of over rotate on, we get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2841.27,"endTime":2845.02,"body":"this new hot idea, and like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2845.02,"endTime":2848.11,"body":"that's gonna solve everything."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2845.02,"endTime":2848.11,"body":"And then we just saw that the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2848.14,"endTime":2851.77,"body":"oxygen for everything else is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2848.14,"endTime":2851.77,"body":"lost. The one last piece that I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2851.77,"endTime":2855.25,"body":"wanted to sort of talk about is,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2851.77,"endTime":2855.25,"body":"you know, I talked about what he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2855.25,"endTime":2858.58,"body":"wrote the DevOps, automated"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2855.25,"endTime":2858.58,"body":"governance, reference paper, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2858.58,"endTime":2863.71,"body":"it revolution 2019 2020, COVID,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2858.58,"endTime":2863.71,"body":"we just didn't do anything on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2863.71,"endTime":2867.49,"body":"it, we decided 21, we, we sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2863.71,"endTime":2867.49,"body":"of start back up what we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2867.49,"endTime":2870.25,"body":"originally thought was going to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2867.49,"endTime":2870.25,"body":"be version two, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2870.25,"endTime":2873.49,"body":"really enjoy working with Bill,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2870.25,"endTime":2873.49,"body":"I, you know, you can already"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2873.49,"endTime":2876.43,"body":"tell at this point, his thoughts"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2873.49,"endTime":2876.43,"body":"are pretty awesome. So I invited"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2876.43,"endTime":2880.36,"body":"him onto the project. And, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2876.43,"endTime":2880.36,"body":"we did such a good job, they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2880.36,"endTime":2884.59,"body":"decided probably about the mid"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2880.36,"endTime":2884.59,"body":"summer last year that like, they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2884.59,"endTime":2888.22,"body":"decided not to just put it out"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2884.59,"endTime":2888.22,"body":"as a reference paper, to turn it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2888.22,"endTime":2893.14,"body":"into a book. And so we decided"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2888.22,"endTime":2893.14,"body":"to do it in sort of a novel"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2893.14,"endTime":2896.89,"body":"format. Instead of just a rough,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2893.14,"endTime":2896.89,"body":"we thought about not as many"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2896.89,"endTime":2899.86,"body":"people read the reference"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2896.89,"endTime":2899.86,"body":"architecture that like as I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2899.86,"endTime":2902.95,"body":"thought they would, because it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2899.86,"endTime":2902.95,"body":"was boring as hell. Right. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2902.95,"endTime":2905.77,"body":"so instead of like, let's turn"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2902.95,"endTime":2905.77,"body":"into sort of a Phoenix Project,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2905.77,"endTime":2908.65,"body":"textile, so give us a little"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2905.77,"endTime":2908.65,"body":"overview of investments"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2908.65,"endTime":2911.26,"body":"unlimited, and, you know, what,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2908.65,"endTime":2911.26,"body":"what can we expect? And we'll"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2911.26,"endTime":2913.03,"body":"see that next summer sometime, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2911.26,"endTime":2913.03,"body":"guess."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2913.6,"endTime":2916.84,"body":"Yeah. So investments"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2913.6,"endTime":2916.84,"body":"I'm learning, it's a it's the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2916.84,"endTime":2920.5,"body":"story of the hurts and the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2916.84,"endTime":2920.5,"body":"identification of a way to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2920.53,"endTime":2922.51,"body":"people think that an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2920.53,"endTime":2922.51,"body":"organization thought they're"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2922.51,"endTime":2924.76,"body":"doing DevOps, I thought they're"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2922.51,"endTime":2924.76,"body":"doing these great things. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2924.76,"endTime":2926.95,"body":"and, you know, the, in what they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2924.76,"endTime":2926.95,"body":"were doing was good, but it's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2926.95,"endTime":2930.58,"body":"also it brings into the reality"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2926.95,"endTime":2930.58,"body":"is like DevOps can be narrowly"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2930.58,"endTime":2933.04,"body":"scoped between just development"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2930.58,"endTime":2933.04,"body":"operations and not other"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2933.04,"endTime":2936.4,"body":"concerns. And then all of a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2933.04,"endTime":2936.4,"body":"sudden, they're hit with a large"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2936.4,"endTime":2941.74,"body":"with a large MRA material matter"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2936.4,"endTime":2941.74,"body":"requiring attention. And so a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2941.74,"endTime":2943.18,"body":"large compliance issue or like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2943.18,"endTime":2946.3,"body":"a failed audit, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2943.18,"endTime":2946.3,"body":"in a very specific financial."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2946.3,"endTime":2946.6,"body":"Yes,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2947.289,"endTime":2949.929,"body":"exactly. And so now"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2947.289,"endTime":2949.929,"body":"with this, they've realized holy"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2949.929,"endTime":2952.839,"body":"cow, like there's a big part of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2949.929,"endTime":2952.839,"body":"our process that's missing."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2952.839,"endTime":2955.899,"body":"We've we've missed the these"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2952.839,"endTime":2955.899,"body":"organizations. 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And so as"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3007.799,"endTime":3011.039,"body":"everything goes through through"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3007.799,"endTime":3011.039,"body":"the investments Unlimited, it is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3011.039,"endTime":3013.409,"body":"that story of how it plays out"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3011.039,"endTime":3013.409,"body":"as the trials as to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3013.409,"endTime":3017.099,"body":"tribulations. It's the, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3013.409,"endTime":3017.099,"body":"know, we think we're doing good"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3017.099,"endTime":3018.989,"body":"and all of a sudden, we get our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3017.099,"endTime":3018.989,"body":"legs caught back out under"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3018.989,"endTime":3021.749,"body":"duress, because we did one thing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3018.989,"endTime":3021.749,"body":"good. But guess what it's, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3021.749,"endTime":3025.079,"body":"realize it's more complex than"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3021.749,"endTime":3025.079,"body":"just the one or two things we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3025.079,"endTime":3029.939,"body":"can do. So, yeah, it's, it's,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3025.079,"endTime":3029.939,"body":"it's, it's, I feel like, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3029.939,"endTime":3032.999,"body":"know, the goal that the goal of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3029.939,"endTime":3032.999,"body":"that book is, as people read it,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3033.359,"endTime":3036.029,"body":"definitely wanted to ring true"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3033.359,"endTime":3036.029,"body":"home, like the Phoenix Project"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3036.029,"endTime":3038.159,"body":"did where, you know, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3036.029,"endTime":3038.159,"body":"we're like, wow, how are you?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3038.159,"endTime":3040.469,"body":"You know, anybody in a financial"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3038.159,"endTime":3040.469,"body":"institution. And it's not just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3040.469,"endTime":3043.679,"body":"for, you know, engineers, and it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3040.469,"endTime":3043.679,"body":"folks, a lot of what we're"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3043.679,"endTime":3046.499,"body":"riding towards, is audit,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3043.679,"endTime":3046.499,"body":"because the goal of this audit"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3046.499,"endTime":3050.459,"body":"and governance, the goal of this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3046.499,"endTime":3050.459,"body":"book is to raise awareness, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3050.459,"endTime":3053.699,"body":"also present a model for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3050.459,"endTime":3053.699,"body":"collaboration to like the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3053.699,"endTime":3056.369,"body":"DevOps, automated governance did"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3053.699,"endTime":3056.369,"body":"that. So how do you look at"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3056.369,"endTime":3058.859,"body":"clarity, because I think that's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3056.369,"endTime":3058.859,"body":"probably where a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3058.859,"endTime":3061.589,"body":"industry stuck is like, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3058.859,"endTime":3061.589,"body":"the automation sounds good."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3061.739,"endTime":3063.929,"body":"Like, how do we even get to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3061.739,"endTime":3063.929,"body":"automation? It's like the dead"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3063.929,"endTime":3066.419,"body":"sword we talked about earlier."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3063.929,"endTime":3066.419,"body":"There's a lot of things out"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3066.419,"endTime":3068.369,"body":"there to say, here's how you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3066.419,"endTime":3068.369,"body":"want to do it. But nobody's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3068.369,"endTime":3071.279,"body":"saying like, specifically, how"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3068.369,"endTime":3071.279,"body":"do we take that first step? And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3071.279,"endTime":3074.939,"body":"I you eyes that are in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3071.279,"endTime":3074.939,"body":"investments and limited? A sort"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3074.939,"endTime":3078.029,"body":"of that that the you know, the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3074.939,"endTime":3078.029,"body":"whole goal is like this, this,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3078.029,"endTime":3080.549,"body":"this is what your first steps"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3078.029,"endTime":3080.549,"body":"could look like? This is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3080.609,"endTime":3082.889,"body":"literally a model of your"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3080.609,"endTime":3082.889,"body":"company, you probably the most"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3082.889,"endTime":3085.979,"body":"people read it, though. They'll"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3082.889,"endTime":3085.979,"body":"feel it. And then okay, here's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3085.979,"endTime":3088.979,"body":"how this company now gets to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3085.979,"endTime":3088.979,"body":"automated governance."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3089.04,"endTime":3090.78,"body":"Yeah, no, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3089.04,"endTime":3090.78,"body":"one of the things we talked"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3090.78,"endTime":3094.11,"body":"about a lot nicer. So one of our"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3090.78,"endTime":3094.11,"body":"problems our industry right now"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3094.14,"endTime":3097.17,"body":"is we don't do both you have big"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3094.14,"endTime":3097.17,"body":"fans and sort of system thinking"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3097.17,"endTime":3100.26,"body":"and complex systems is that it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3097.17,"endTime":3100.26,"body":"seems like the approach that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3100.26,"endTime":3103.26,"body":"we're taking in sort of DEV SEC"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3100.26,"endTime":3103.26,"body":"Ops is a very sort of reference"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3103.26,"endTime":3106.62,"body":"architecture structure, Dev SEC"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3103.26,"endTime":3106.62,"body":"ops reference architectures"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3106.62,"endTime":3109.29,"body":"where, you know, do you have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3106.62,"endTime":3109.29,"body":"this in the pipeline? Do you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3109.29,"endTime":3111.45,"body":"have this in the pipeline? Do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3109.29,"endTime":3111.45,"body":"you have this in the file, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3111.45,"endTime":3115.59,"body":"all these three, this is their"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3111.45,"endTime":3115.59,"body":"own format, their own DSL, their"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3115.59,"endTime":3118.77,"body":"own logs? And, and what we're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3115.59,"endTime":3118.77,"body":"really doing is making the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3118.77,"endTime":3122.52,"body":"translation and conversation"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3118.77,"endTime":3122.52,"body":"between risk and developers"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3123.0,"endTime":3126.39,"body":"exponentially more complex."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3123.0,"endTime":3126.39,"body":"Right, like, you know, where,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3126.51,"endTime":3129.12,"body":"you know, either way, a common"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3126.51,"endTime":3129.12,"body":"one that I hear a lot, which is,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3129.12,"endTime":3131.94,"body":"you know, the auditors want to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3129.12,"endTime":3131.94,"body":"understand, what's the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3131.94,"endTime":3135.42,"body":"difference between the sonicu"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3131.94,"endTime":3135.42,"body":"blog in this, you know, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3135.42,"endTime":3139.35,"body":"Nexus lock? And like, well, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3135.42,"endTime":3139.35,"body":"know, you don't understand they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3139.35,"endTime":3141.66,"body":"sort of look like they tell you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3139.35,"endTime":3141.66,"body":"the same things, but they don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3141.66,"endTime":3144.9,"body":"write in like, like, again, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3141.66,"endTime":3144.9,"body":"shouldn't be having those kind"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3144.9,"endTime":3148.44,"body":"of conversations, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3144.9,"endTime":3148.44,"body":"like, you know, a developer or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3148.44,"endTime":3150.78,"body":"developer calling operations to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3148.44,"endTime":3150.78,"body":"say, Hey, can you explain the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3150.78,"endTime":3154.53,"body":"risk? Why the next Syslog"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3150.78,"endTime":3154.53,"body":"doesn't match this on a keylock"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3155.58,"endTime":3158.37,"body":"will never match doesn't, that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3155.58,"endTime":3158.37,"body":"about what they're idiots. You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3158.37,"endTime":3160.59,"body":"know, like, yeah, like, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3158.37,"endTime":3160.59,"body":"shouldn't be having those kind"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3160.59,"endTime":3161.37,"body":"of conversations."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3161.91,"endTime":3164.43,"body":"I say to the scenes,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3161.91,"endTime":3164.43,"body":"it's unnecessary cognitive"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3164.43,"endTime":3168.21,"body":"dissonance that creates"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3164.43,"endTime":3168.21,"body":"cognitive overhead and cognitive"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3168.24,"endTime":3170.88,"body":"and a psychotic load. And like,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3168.24,"endTime":3170.88,"body":"that's you, at the end of day."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3171.81,"endTime":3174.51,"body":"I'm rereading The Fifth"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3171.81,"endTime":3174.51,"body":"Discipline, I know, it's gonna"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3174.51,"endTime":3178.29,"body":"be pretty heavy. But like, it's,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3174.51,"endTime":3178.29,"body":"I think, that's, you know, if"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3178.29,"endTime":3180.27,"body":"people can trudge through,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3178.29,"endTime":3180.27,"body":"that's a good book, because to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3180.27,"endTime":3183.33,"body":"point point out systems thinking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3180.27,"endTime":3183.33,"body":"is, you know, we use the word"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3183.33,"endTime":3186.93,"body":"engineering an architect, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3183.33,"endTime":3186.93,"body":"there's not, that lacks a lot."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3186.93,"endTime":3189.06,"body":"And as you point out, like,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3186.93,"endTime":3189.06,"body":"we're not here to I'm not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3189.06,"endTime":3191.55,"body":"necessarily bashing the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3189.06,"endTime":3191.55,"body":"industry, I think sometimes I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3191.82,"endTime":3194.43,"body":"want to say is the industry is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3191.82,"endTime":3194.43,"body":"over rotating, sometimes I have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3194.43,"endTime":3197.4,"body":"a tendency to over rotate and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3194.43,"endTime":3197.4,"body":"some of my the way I say, simply"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3197.4,"endTime":3199.98,"body":"because I just see vendors, like"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3197.4,"endTime":3199.98,"body":"all of a sudden, like s bombs"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3199.98,"endTime":3205.05,"body":"popular, so let's put what we do"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3199.98,"endTime":3205.05,"body":"now. So it's like, so like, hold"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3205.05,"endTime":3208.35,"body":"on a second. Like, there's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3205.05,"endTime":3208.35,"body":"they're there. There's, there's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3208.77,"endTime":3210.96,"body":"not that they do or don't have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3208.77,"endTime":3210.96,"body":"this capability. Some of them"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3210.96,"endTime":3212.43,"body":"do, but it's like, alright,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3210.96,"endTime":3212.43,"body":"let's,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3212.49,"endTime":3215.82,"body":"let's start. The"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3212.49,"endTime":3215.82,"body":"thing that's, you know, sort of,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3216.06,"endTime":3218.82,"body":"like I said, take it with a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3216.06,"endTime":3218.82,"body":"grain of salt, because it is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3218.82,"endTime":3223.89,"body":"what it is. But it's amazing how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3218.82,"endTime":3223.89,"body":"many vendors after the lock for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3223.89,"endTime":3230.22,"body":"J. shell script or sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3223.89,"endTime":3230.22,"body":"module was exposed, all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3230.22,"endTime":3234.57,"body":"explaining how they could have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3230.22,"endTime":3234.57,"body":"caught it. Yeah, he did. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3234.57,"endTime":3237.69,"body":"nobody did and like, but every"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3234.57,"endTime":3237.69,"body":"vendor now talks about like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3237.69,"endTime":3240.33,"body":"that's their first page. Oh, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3237.69,"endTime":3240.33,"body":"know, the letter per day like we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3240.33,"endTime":3243.84,"body":"have a solution that, like, Hey,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3240.33,"endTime":3243.84,"body":"Bill, how do people find you if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3243.84,"endTime":3246.15,"body":"they want to sort of have more"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3243.84,"endTime":3246.15,"body":"conversations with you and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3246.99,"endTime":3249.81,"body":"always LinkedIn, hit me"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3246.99,"endTime":3249.81,"body":"up on LinkedIn, you'll find Bill"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3249.81,"endTime":3253.11,"body":"Benson on LinkedIn. I do have a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3249.81,"endTime":3253.11,"body":"Twitter handle at Belbin Singh."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3254.22,"endTime":3257.79,"body":"By I admit I'm trying to get"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3254.22,"endTime":3257.79,"body":"better with my tweeting. But"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3257.97,"endTime":3260.52,"body":"LinkedIn is where I tend to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3257.97,"endTime":3260.52,"body":"LinkedIn conversations"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3260.52,"endTime":3263.91,"body":"activity is these"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3260.52,"endTime":3263.91,"body":"days. So me too. I used to tweet"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3263.91,"endTime":3267.54,"body":"like a madman. And these days, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3263.91,"endTime":3267.54,"body":"find, I just have better"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3267.54,"endTime":3270.18,"body":"conversations on LinkedIn, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3267.54,"endTime":3270.18,"body":"I'll put all those up in the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3270.18,"endTime":3274.65,"body":"shownotes. And also, it's always"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3270.18,"endTime":3274.65,"body":"a blast talking to you. I you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3274.65,"endTime":3277.92,"body":"know, I get to talk to Bill"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3274.65,"endTime":3277.92,"body":"quite often as part of my job,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3277.92,"endTime":3285.48,"body":"which is sort of a treat, so but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3277.92,"endTime":3285.48,"body":"anyway, thanks, Bill for for a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3285.48,"endTime":3286.29,"body":"great podcast."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3286.59,"endTime":3289.11,"body":"Yeah, thank you very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3286.59,"endTime":3289.11,"body":"much for the invite. Cheers."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3289.11,"endTime":3289.5,"body":"Good."}]}