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Like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":431.43,"endTime":434.34,"body":"so."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":434.67,"endTime":439.95,"body":"Yeah. It's to, to get"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":434.67,"endTime":439.95,"body":"to, I think, the core thing of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":439.95,"endTime":443.85,"body":"whether it's, you know, Deming,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":439.95,"endTime":443.85,"body":"Goldratt. You know, whatever"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":443.85,"endTime":447.09,"body":"comes next is that there are"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":443.85,"endTime":447.09,"body":"certain principles at play,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":447.12,"endTime":450.66,"body":"right, that are universal. And,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":447.12,"endTime":450.66,"body":"you know, I think the objections"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":450.66,"endTime":453.06,"body":"what they sound like, in the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":450.66,"endTime":453.06,"body":"beginning was, oh, you had to be"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":453.06,"endTime":458.55,"body":"a web scale company, the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":453.06,"endTime":458.55,"body":"hyperscale. Companies, which, on"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":458.55,"endTime":461.88,"body":"the surface, just, I think, to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":458.55,"endTime":461.88,"body":"us just seemed absurd, right?"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":462.0,"endTime":467.79,"body":"Like the technology value stream"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":462.0,"endTime":467.79,"body":"actually exists, regardless of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":467.91,"endTime":472.95,"body":"whether you're a hyper scalar or"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":467.91,"endTime":472.95,"body":"not some. So I think it was"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":472.95,"endTime":475.11,"body":"really cool, because there's no"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":472.95,"endTime":475.11,"body":"better way to prove it, then"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":475.2,"endTime":476.19,"body":"existence proofs."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":477.6,"endTime":479.28,"body":"Have these"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":477.6,"endTime":479.28,"body":"companies are now over the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":479.28,"endTime":482.07,"body":"years? I mean, what what is the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":479.28,"endTime":482.07,"body":"catalog now of how many"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":482.07,"endTime":483.96,"body":"companies enterprises have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":482.07,"endTime":483.96,"body":"presented? I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":483.96,"endTime":487.89,"body":"think at last count,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":483.96,"endTime":487.89,"body":"it was about 1000 plus videos."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":488.49,"endTime":490.98,"body":"So I would just say about 800 a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":488.49,"endTime":490.98,"body":"day."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":492.33,"endTime":496.14,"body":"It's incredible."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":492.33,"endTime":496.14,"body":"You know, even so I was telling"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":496.14,"endTime":499.14,"body":"you, I wouldn't know, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":496.14,"endTime":499.14,"body":"I wanted to catch up on some of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":499.14,"endTime":503.76,"body":"your podcasts. And I, I've been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":499.14,"endTime":503.76,"body":"fascinated by this argument"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":503.79,"endTime":507.99,"body":"about just in time. This is if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":503.79,"endTime":507.99,"body":"people are pinging me and see"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":507.99,"endTime":510.6,"body":"John, now, what do you think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":507.99,"endTime":510.6,"body":"about just as if, like, we've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":510.6,"endTime":514.56,"body":"proven it doesn't work? Right."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":510.6,"endTime":514.56,"body":"And then, you know, we're both"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":514.59,"endTime":519.27,"body":"huge fans of Dr. Sphere, right."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":514.59,"endTime":519.27,"body":"And I just love the podcast,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":520.08,"endTime":523.11,"body":"where, you know, he, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":520.08,"endTime":523.11,"body":"he explained it to us, all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":523.11,"endTime":527.79,"body":"right. And, you know, and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":523.11,"endTime":527.79,"body":"just, you know, and your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":527.79,"endTime":530.43,"body":"references. Like, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":527.79,"endTime":530.43,"body":"there's just so much like you'll"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":530.43,"endTime":534.27,"body":"say, though, you know, there was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":530.43,"endTime":534.27,"body":"this presentation by Walmart"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":534.27,"endTime":538.08,"body":"back in, you know, and be able"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":534.27,"endTime":538.08,"body":"to sort of use all that which we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":538.08,"endTime":541.08,"body":"did in the DevOps handbook as"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":538.08,"endTime":541.08,"body":"well. Right. We will use all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":541.08,"endTime":545.31,"body":"that material from all those"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":541.08,"endTime":545.31,"body":"sort of presentations. But the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":545.31,"endTime":550.17,"body":"idea that there are just so many"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":545.31,"endTime":550.17,"body":"proof points. Now, when you want"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":550.17,"endTime":550.86,"body":"to tell a story."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":552.12,"endTime":555.75,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I think"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":552.12,"endTime":555.75,"body":"the the point that, that podcast"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":555.75,"endTime":561.99,"body":"episode with the spear was about"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":555.75,"endTime":561.99,"body":"was to rebut the narrative that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":561.99,"endTime":565.83,"body":"companies are in trouble because"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":561.99,"endTime":565.83,"body":"of the lean supply chains. And I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":565.83,"endTime":569.52,"body":"think the argument that Dr."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":565.83,"endTime":569.52,"body":"Spear was very forcefully"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":569.52,"endTime":574.95,"body":"arguing was that no, no, it's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":569.52,"endTime":574.95,"body":"actually we are in as good"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":575.01,"endTime":578.94,"body":"shape. We are in, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":575.01,"endTime":578.94,"body":"unprecedented times because of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":579.18,"endTime":583.44,"body":"well managed supply chains. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":579.18,"endTime":583.44,"body":"it was just one of the things"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":583.44,"endTime":587.88,"body":"that, you know, to substantiate"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":583.44,"endTime":587.88,"body":"this claim. I went to the Fred"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":587.88,"endTime":592.05,"body":"sites us the Federal Reserve,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":587.88,"endTime":592.05,"body":"economic data site, run by the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":592.89,"endTime":595.62,"body":"St. Louis branch, and it's just"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":592.89,"endTime":595.62,"body":"pretty incredible. So I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":595.62,"endTime":598.68,"body":"calculated the inventory sales"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":595.62,"endTime":598.68,"body":"ratios going back almost 100"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":598.68,"endTime":604.38,"body":"years and I mean, it's just so"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":598.68,"endTime":604.38,"body":"you can imagine a line. That's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":604.38,"endTime":607.71,"body":"like basically kind of going up,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":604.38,"endTime":607.71,"body":"and then it dips, like, you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":607.71,"endTime":612.36,"body":"know, so visibly Yeah. And you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":607.71,"endTime":612.36,"body":"know, around 1982, which is, so"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":612.36,"endTime":614.7,"body":"that was kind of so I divided"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":612.36,"endTime":614.7,"body":"the data points into two"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":614.7,"endTime":619.41,"body":"populations, one for 92. And y"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":614.7,"endTime":619.41,"body":"92 is because typically"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":619.41,"endTime":623.79,"body":"economists will divide up things"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":619.41,"endTime":623.79,"body":"at the end of a recession. So"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":623.79,"endTime":627.48,"body":"1982 is when they marked the end"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":623.79,"endTime":627.48,"body":"of that particular recession,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":627.99,"endTime":631.8,"body":"and then afterwards, and the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":627.99,"endTime":631.8,"body":"inventory to sales ratio, post"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":631.8,"endTime":637.11,"body":"1982 is 1/3 of that from before."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":631.8,"endTime":637.11,"body":"And so arguably, right, that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":637.11,"endTime":641.55,"body":"just means that, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":637.11,"endTime":641.55,"body":"businesses and anyone who's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":641.55,"endTime":646.08,"body":"carrying inventory has freed up"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":641.55,"endTime":646.08,"body":"two thirds of capital to deploy"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":646.08,"endTime":650.16,"body":"it to more useful things. Right."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":646.08,"endTime":650.16,"body":"So so and as opposed to it being"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":650.16,"endTime":654.3,"body":"tied up in inventory. So I think"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":650.16,"endTime":654.3,"body":"that's just incredible evidence"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":654.75,"endTime":658.17,"body":"that suggests, you know, what"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":654.75,"endTime":658.17,"body":"the huge value and the ways a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":658.17,"endTime":660.99,"body":"site is changed just by better"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":658.17,"endTime":660.99,"body":"management supply chains?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":661.47,"endTime":663.54,"body":"Yeah, no question."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":661.47,"endTime":663.54,"body":"I mean, again, you guys talk"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":663.54,"endTime":667.11,"body":"about, like, I love this sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":663.54,"endTime":667.11,"body":"students here says, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":667.11,"endTime":670.14,"body":"when you next time you pick up"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":667.11,"endTime":670.14,"body":"tomato, like, try to understand,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":670.5,"endTime":673.23,"body":"like, how that got that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":670.5,"endTime":673.23,"body":"beautiful tomato that you're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":673.23,"endTime":677.07,"body":"cutting up for, like a sandwich"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":673.23,"endTime":677.07,"body":"or your meal, Howard got to you,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":678.09,"endTime":683.1,"body":"you know, through the incredible"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":678.09,"endTime":683.1,"body":"complexity of other things, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":683.1,"endTime":685.56,"body":"you know, the one thing I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":683.1,"endTime":685.56,"body":"thought about when I was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":685.56,"endTime":687.75,"body":"listening to that, like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":685.56,"endTime":687.75,"body":"know, I've got Deming on the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":687.75,"endTime":693.66,"body":"brain at all times, and but, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":687.75,"endTime":693.66,"body":"know, like, 1982 is, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":693.66,"endTime":697.5,"body":"like, 1980 was the beginning of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":693.66,"endTime":697.5,"body":"quote, unquote, Demming mania in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":697.53,"endTime":701.88,"body":"United States, there was the NBC"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":697.53,"endTime":701.88,"body":"documentary, and 82 out of a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":701.88,"endTime":706.74,"body":"crisis was published, it just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":701.88,"endTime":706.74,"body":"seems like, more than a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":706.74,"endTime":711.39,"body":"coincidence, but possibly a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":706.74,"endTime":711.39,"body":"coincidence, that a lot of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":711.39,"endTime":716.46,"body":"ideas behind you know, sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":711.39,"endTime":716.46,"body":"Deming starts about suppliers,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":716.67,"endTime":720.96,"body":"you know, toward a supply chain"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":716.67,"endTime":720.96,"body":"concepts or, you know, and just,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":721.2,"endTime":725.01,"body":"you know, that just variation,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":721.2,"endTime":725.01,"body":"we talked a little about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":725.01,"endTime":730.59,"body":"variation. In one of the last"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":725.01,"endTime":730.59,"body":"podcasts we did on deal cast. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":730.59,"endTime":734.64,"body":"have some more thoughts there."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":730.59,"endTime":734.64,"body":"But, um, but like, it just seems"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":734.67,"endTime":737.34,"body":"interesting coincidental that,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":734.67,"endTime":737.34,"body":"like, we have this amazing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":737.34,"endTime":742.32,"body":"growth in just very soda,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":737.34,"endTime":742.32,"body":"sophisticated plot supply chain,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":742.71,"endTime":747.75,"body":"and the economics related to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":742.71,"endTime":747.75,"body":"these models of delivery."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":748.5,"endTime":750.96,"body":"Yeah, so we're talking"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":748.5,"endTime":750.96,"body":"beforehand about like, Why does"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":750.99,"endTime":755.58,"body":"92 come up? So often? And I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":750.99,"endTime":755.58,"body":"think maybe part of it might be"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":755.58,"endTime":760.44,"body":"coincidental, right. I mean, the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":755.58,"endTime":760.44,"body":"publication, but I think the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":760.44,"endTime":765.45,"body":"reason that we're talking about"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":760.44,"endTime":765.45,"body":"is that, yeah, that period was"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":765.45,"endTime":769.95,"body":"the darkest period of the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":765.45,"endTime":769.95,"body":"economy before the recovery. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":769.95,"endTime":773.04,"body":"so when do people need help the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":769.95,"endTime":773.04,"body":"most? Who needs help? When"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":773.04,"endTime":776.43,"body":"things are going well, nobody"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":773.04,"endTime":776.43,"body":"who needs help, you know, when"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":776.64,"endTime":780.87,"body":"it basically every, when you're"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":776.64,"endTime":780.87,"body":"sailing against the wind, and"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":780.87,"endTime":784.8,"body":"every factor in the economy, and"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":780.87,"endTime":784.8,"body":"and so I think that is probably"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":784.89,"endTime":789.54,"body":"what contributes to 92 Showing"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":784.89,"endTime":789.54,"body":"up so often, you know, in terms"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":789.54,"endTime":793.35,"body":"of a as a division between"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":789.54,"endTime":793.35,"body":"before and after,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":793.44,"endTime":795.0,"body":"yeah, and I guess"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":793.44,"endTime":795.0,"body":"the other thing, you know, a lot"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":795.0,"endTime":797.52,"body":"of times when we think about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":795.0,"endTime":797.52,"body":"software companies, we always"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":797.52,"endTime":799.74,"body":"look for these inflection"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":797.52,"endTime":799.74,"body":"points, right? Like, which is,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":800.01,"endTime":802.38,"body":"what is the point at which"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":800.01,"endTime":802.38,"body":"somebody might be, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":802.38,"endTime":804.99,"body":"like, going and telling somebody"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":802.38,"endTime":804.99,"body":"to change when everything's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":804.99,"endTime":808.41,"body":"normal is like a very hard sell,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":804.99,"endTime":808.41,"body":"when they're all sort of pulling"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":808.41,"endTime":810.09,"body":"their hair out and saying, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":808.41,"endTime":810.09,"body":"know, like, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":810.12,"endTime":813.84,"body":"everything's broken, you kind of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":810.12,"endTime":813.84,"body":"swoop in with a new idea. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":813.84,"endTime":816.69,"body":"so, you know, that part of that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":813.84,"endTime":816.69,"body":"coincidence might be some of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":816.69,"endTime":820.29,"body":"those new ideas. You're at this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":816.69,"endTime":820.29,"body":"amazing inflection point of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":820.29,"endTime":824.13,"body":"like, what we've been doing, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":820.29,"endTime":824.13,"body":"it's terrible. To do something"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":824.13,"endTime":828.27,"body":"new. Um, what are your thoughts?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":824.13,"endTime":828.27,"body":"I asked most guests that so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":828.27,"endTime":831.81,"body":"like, what would you say, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":828.27,"endTime":831.81,"body":"know, why is Dr. Deming"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":831.81,"endTime":836.67,"body":"important in our conversation"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":831.81,"endTime":836.67,"body":"here in 2022? Yeah, in fact,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":836.7,"endTime":841.8,"body":"I was trying to find"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":836.7,"endTime":841.8,"body":"my book on it. One of my"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":841.8,"endTime":847.11,"body":"favorite books that I read in it"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":841.8,"endTime":847.11,"body":"as we were researching the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":847.14,"endTime":850.29,"body":"Phoenix Project. Oh, my gosh, I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":847.14,"endTime":850.29,"body":"just pulled up the Amazon page,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":850.29,"endTime":856.29,"body":"last purchase on August 4 2000."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":850.29,"endTime":856.29,"body":"For what called Deming and"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":856.29,"endTime":860.79,"body":"Goldratt. Oh, yeah, yes, yeah."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":856.29,"endTime":860.79,"body":"Okay. All right. And this, uh,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":861.18,"endTime":864.48,"body":"basically, it was I just loved"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":861.18,"endTime":864.48,"body":"the book, because it was so"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":864.6,"endTime":869.22,"body":"understandable. But essentially,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":864.6,"endTime":869.22,"body":"it was the author dominico"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":869.25,"endTime":869.91,"body":"Lapore"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":869.94,"endTime":872.67,"body":"before Yes. I've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":869.94,"endTime":872.67,"body":"got him queued. And we go, no"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":872.67,"endTime":873.81,"body":"kidding. Yeah, it's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":873.81,"endTime":877.23,"body":"a great book. And it"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":873.81,"endTime":877.23,"body":"just did a I just thought"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":877.23,"endTime":882.12,"body":"phenomenal job and saying, you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":877.23,"endTime":882.12,"body":"know, those core concepts and"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":882.12,"endTime":887.25,"body":"principles about what you need"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":882.12,"endTime":887.25,"body":"to manage well, and I think"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":887.25,"endTime":891.72,"body":"there's kind of classically"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":887.25,"endTime":891.72,"body":"three people who are credited"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":891.72,"endTime":895.35,"body":"for the manufacturing"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":891.72,"endTime":895.35,"body":"revolution. One is certainly Dr."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":895.35,"endTime":899.25,"body":"Deming. In fact, Dr. Goldratt"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":895.35,"endTime":899.25,"body":"wrote endlessly about how he was"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":899.25,"endTime":906.24,"body":"standing on the shoulders. I'm"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":899.25,"endTime":906.24,"body":"not one to, you know? Yeah, it's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":906.24,"endTime":907.47,"body":"the fact to me it was such a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":907.589,"endTime":910.199,"body":"yeah, go rat would"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":907.589,"endTime":910.199,"body":"not like it has to be like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":910.229,"endTime":911.879,"body":"really, really true."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":912.06,"endTime":914.19,"body":"Exactly. He didn't"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":912.06,"endTime":914.19,"body":"give those out that kind of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":914.19,"endTime":919.35,"body":"credit. Exactly right. And so"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":914.19,"endTime":919.35,"body":"Dr. Goldratt, I would certainly"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":919.35,"endTime":922.14,"body":"consider another one of those."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":919.35,"endTime":922.14,"body":"And then the Lean movement. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":922.14,"endTime":926.25,"body":"I think between those three, I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":922.14,"endTime":926.25,"body":"mean, I think six sigma goes in"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":926.25,"endTime":929.19,"body":"there somewhere, right? Between"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":926.25,"endTime":929.19,"body":"those four, certainly, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":929.19,"endTime":932.28,"body":"that was the majority of the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":929.19,"endTime":932.28,"body":"market share of people who said,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":932.28,"endTime":935.31,"body":"There's got to be a better way"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":932.28,"endTime":935.31,"body":"to run things. And so I think if"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":935.31,"endTime":937.83,"body":"you were to paint the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":935.31,"endTime":937.83,"body":"genealogies You said so"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":938.25,"endTime":941.82,"body":"wonderfully throughout your"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":938.25,"endTime":941.82,"body":"podcast episodes, which I so"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":941.82,"endTime":946.17,"body":"much enjoyed. The one on that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":941.82,"endTime":946.17,"body":"autonomous driving one was just"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":946.62,"endTime":952.02,"body":"mind blowing. To me, that was"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":946.62,"endTime":952.02,"body":"amazing. But that, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":952.02,"endTime":955.86,"body":"think all of them would credit"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":952.02,"endTime":955.86,"body":"Dr. Deming as being the person"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":955.86,"endTime":958.98,"body":"who really planted the seeds,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":955.86,"endTime":958.98,"body":"the core ideas that everyone"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":958.98,"endTime":959.85,"body":"tried to improve upon."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":960.18,"endTime":963.51,"body":"Yeah, yeah. No, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":960.18,"endTime":963.51,"body":"think, you know, the conclusion"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":963.69,"endTime":968.22,"body":"of all the research I've done on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":963.69,"endTime":968.22,"body":"Deming now is, um, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":968.22,"endTime":971.37,"body":"like, one of the things you hear"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":968.22,"endTime":971.37,"body":"often he's the guy that changed"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":971.37,"endTime":974.88,"body":"Japan, he's the one that created"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":971.37,"endTime":974.88,"body":"the miracle in Japan. Japan"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":974.88,"endTime":979.59,"body":"changed Japan, Japan, Korea,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":974.88,"endTime":979.59,"body":"Japan. Yeah, he was a conduit,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":979.59,"endTime":984.9,"body":"he basically helped a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":979.59,"endTime":984.9,"body":"sort of influence in that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":984.9,"endTime":989.1,"body":"economy that needed help change"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":984.9,"endTime":989.1,"body":"the way they thought, but, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":989.1,"endTime":992.25,"body":"you know, I think, yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":989.1,"endTime":992.25,"body":"early on, I would say things"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":992.25,"endTime":994.77,"body":"like, you know, so Deming did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":992.25,"endTime":994.77,"body":"this and we wouldn't happen like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":994.77,"endTime":999.69,"body":"kiss Deming. Deming, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":994.77,"endTime":999.69,"body":"anybody else was just incredible"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":999.69,"endTime":1004.64,"body":"influencer of like, really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":999.69,"endTime":1004.64,"body":"grounded ideas. You know, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1004.67,"endTime":1009.89,"body":"Dr. Schulz works, this is the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1004.67,"endTime":1009.89,"body":"press control. You know, all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1009.89,"endTime":1011.15,"body":"that. Yeah. In fact,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1011.21,"endTime":1013.82,"body":"one of my favorite"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1011.21,"endTime":1013.82,"body":"books is called The Structure of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1013.82,"endTime":1019.13,"body":"Scientific Revolution by Dr."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1013.82,"endTime":1019.13,"body":"Thomas Kuhn. And, basically, the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1019.13,"endTime":1024.65,"body":"punch line is, whenever there's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1019.13,"endTime":1024.65,"body":"a true revolution, whether it's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1024.65,"endTime":1028.79,"body":"Copernican to Newtonian"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1024.65,"endTime":1028.79,"body":"Newtonian to Einsteinian in each"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1028.79,"endTime":1032.54,"body":"one of those cases, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1028.79,"endTime":1032.54,"body":"there are many, many people"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1032.57,"endTime":1035.0,"body":"working on that problem,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1032.57,"endTime":1035.0,"body":"sometimes in cooperation,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1035.0,"endTime":1039.8,"body":"sometimes in competition. But"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1035.0,"endTime":1039.8,"body":"then, you had love this image"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1039.8,"endTime":1042.56,"body":"that he paints in the book is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1039.8,"endTime":1042.56,"body":"that and then something happens"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1043.25,"endTime":1046.37,"body":"is he called it like, almost"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1043.25,"endTime":1046.37,"body":"like sublimation, when gas turns"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1046.37,"endTime":1050.24,"body":"into a solid instant, and then"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1046.37,"endTime":1050.24,"body":"one person gets the credit."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1050.63,"endTime":1056.18,"body":"Yeah. And I think Deming, is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1050.63,"endTime":1056.18,"body":"that person, right? Ideas"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1056.18,"endTime":1057.32,"body":"crystallized around him."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1057.59,"endTime":1061.1,"body":"Yeah, no, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1057.59,"endTime":1061.1,"body":"you, you know, you. Yeah. So you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1061.1,"endTime":1063.59,"body":"know, you get if you think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1061.1,"endTime":1063.59,"body":"about, you know, the, the sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1063.59,"endTime":1066.8,"body":"of aircraft is, Taran, there's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1063.59,"endTime":1066.8,"body":"all these like, incredibly evil,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1066.8,"endTime":1070.22,"body":"and there's ones I found the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1066.8,"endTime":1070.22,"body":"listing, but he does seem to get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1070.97,"endTime":1074.72,"body":"the credit, but then, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1070.97,"endTime":1074.72,"body":"the, like, some people are an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1074.72,"endTime":1077.87,"body":"inflection point. I mean, even"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1074.72,"endTime":1077.87,"body":"like Amazon's cloud, like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1077.87,"endTime":1080.6,"body":"know, like, I, you know, me"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1077.87,"endTime":1080.6,"body":"being in this industry for so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1080.6,"endTime":1083.57,"body":"many years, you know, and here's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1080.6,"endTime":1083.57,"body":"the old timers, and we were"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1083.57,"endTime":1087.35,"body":"doing a club back in the 90s."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1083.57,"endTime":1087.35,"body":"And, you know, what's new, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1087.35,"endTime":1091.07,"body":"know, like, it's new buddy,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1087.35,"endTime":1091.07,"body":"like, I was doing your version"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1091.07,"endTime":1096.14,"body":"of a cloud in the 90s. But like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1091.07,"endTime":1096.14,"body":"in 2006, when Amazon created"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1096.14,"endTime":1099.65,"body":"this API infrastructure, that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1096.14,"endTime":1099.65,"body":"way, you can start off 100"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1099.68,"endTime":1102.8,"body":"compute instances, by hitting a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1099.68,"endTime":1102.8,"body":"button, you know, hitting"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1102.83,"endTime":1106.91,"body":"Command line, that was a little"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1102.83,"endTime":1106.91,"body":"different than, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1107.75,"endTime":1108.86,"body":"credit, right, like,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1109.1,"endTime":1110.99,"body":"Absolutely, and use"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1109.1,"endTime":1110.99,"body":"the word inflection point. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1110.99,"endTime":1115.58,"body":"that term, often gets credit to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1110.99,"endTime":1115.58,"body":"Dr. Andy Grove, former CEO of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1115.58,"endTime":1120.77,"body":"Intel, but that term actually"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1115.58,"endTime":1120.77,"body":"came from Dr. Thomas Kuhn. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1120.77,"endTime":1124.7,"body":"so good cheer example, right?"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1120.77,"endTime":1124.7,"body":"The inflection point of AWS easy"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1124.7,"endTime":1129.71,"body":"to write everyone got it? Like,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1124.7,"endTime":1129.71,"body":"oh, not everybody got it, but as"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1129.71,"endTime":1133.1,"body":"the people who mattered got it,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1129.71,"endTime":1133.1,"body":"right. And that was the first"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1133.1,"endTime":1139.16,"body":"sort of like, there was pre EC"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1133.1,"endTime":1139.16,"body":"two. And there was probably"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1139.19,"endTime":1144.23,"body":"others like AECT. But EC two is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1139.19,"endTime":1144.23,"body":"one that can help kick off the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1144.23,"endTime":1146.9,"body":"cloud movement. Yeah, be I think"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1144.23,"endTime":1146.9,"body":"one narrative."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1147.56,"endTime":1150.59,"body":"So So what can you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1147.56,"endTime":1150.59,"body":"tell us about this book? Your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1150.59,"endTime":1152.99,"body":"doctor like, I'm sure"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1150.59,"endTime":1152.99,"body":"everybody's like, Oh, man,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1152.99,"endTime":1157.25,"body":"what's this gonna be all about?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1152.99,"endTime":1157.25,"body":"Oh, yeah. Crazy fascination with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1157.25,"endTime":1160.52,"body":"spear like, I remember what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1157.25,"endTime":1160.52,"body":"writing the handbook. I felt"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1160.52,"endTime":1163.94,"body":"like we had to pull the end on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1160.52,"endTime":1163.94,"body":"cord on you period. On Shawn"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1163.94,"endTime":1167.9,"body":"Spears stories like Jean, you've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1163.94,"endTime":1167.9,"body":"had, like, you've met. You met"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1167.9,"endTime":1170.9,"body":"your quota here, like no more"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1167.9,"endTime":1170.9,"body":"spirit stories, like just one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1170.9,"endTime":1171.8,"body":"more but yeah,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1172.22,"endTime":1173.72,"body":"right. In fact, I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1172.22,"endTime":1173.72,"body":"mean, just to fully explain a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1173.72,"endTime":1177.98,"body":"story. So I took a workshop from"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1173.72,"endTime":1177.98,"body":"him. It was a two day workshop"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1177.98,"endTime":1182.12,"body":"that he was giving an MIT Sloan."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1177.98,"endTime":1182.12,"body":"And I was speaking about before"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1182.12,"endTime":1185.0,"body":"and after, right? In my mind, it"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1182.12,"endTime":1185.0,"body":"was like before the spear"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1185.0,"endTime":1191.48,"body":"workshop, and then after, and I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1185.0,"endTime":1191.48,"body":"remember coming back, and yeah,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1191.54,"endTime":1196.37,"body":"and that's when, like a whole"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1191.54,"endTime":1196.37,"body":"bunch of things suddenly became"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1196.55,"endTime":1201.38,"body":"apparent to me. And so one of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1196.55,"endTime":1201.38,"body":"the key teachings that he had"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1201.38,"endTime":1204.2,"body":"was like what he called at the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1201.38,"endTime":1204.2,"body":"time, let's call the three S's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1204.2,"endTime":1210.92,"body":"or four S's, right? See, solve,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1204.2,"endTime":1210.92,"body":"form, and share. And I, I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1210.92,"endTime":1214.22,"body":"remember, I think it was in one"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1210.92,"endTime":1214.22,"body":"of our calls with you, it's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1214.22,"endTime":1217.43,"body":"like, oh, share, like, we're"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1214.22,"endTime":1217.43,"body":"totally missing, share, share,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1217.43,"endTime":1223.49,"body":"platform, share codebases,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1217.43,"endTime":1223.49,"body":"shared, sharing, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1223.49,"endTime":1226.46,"body":"dojos, and all of those things"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1223.49,"endTime":1226.46,"body":"are a way to spread greatness."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1226.82,"endTime":1230.45,"body":"And I think that's what resulted"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1226.82,"endTime":1230.45,"body":"in basically all the changes"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1230.45,"endTime":1233.9,"body":"started making Darkspear this"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1230.45,"endTime":1233.9,"body":"Darkspear that then a certain"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1233.9,"endTime":1236.09,"body":"point in time, I think he got"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1233.9,"endTime":1236.09,"body":"really frustrated because"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1236.66,"endTime":1239.63,"body":"Darkspear the word starter"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1236.66,"endTime":1239.63,"body":"spirit can't be half the book."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1239.66,"endTime":1245.39,"body":"So yeah, we did have to dial it"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1239.66,"endTime":1245.39,"body":"back. But yeah, I think ever"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1245.39,"endTime":1250.49,"body":"since then. So that was eight"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1245.39,"endTime":1250.49,"body":"years ago. Um, uh, certainly"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1250.49,"endTime":1254.84,"body":"after the sometime, in the last"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1250.49,"endTime":1254.84,"body":"three years, I've become"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1255.44,"endTime":1260.18,"body":"endlessly fascinated, and maybe"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1255.44,"endTime":1260.18,"body":"obsessed with Trojan sand, why,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1260.48,"endTime":1264.56,"body":"and how Steven spear students"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1260.48,"endTime":1264.56,"body":"sees the world. And I think to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1264.56,"endTime":1267.92,"body":"cast, in fact, the whole idea of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1264.56,"endTime":1267.92,"body":"cast is in service to try to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1267.92,"endTime":1272.6,"body":"understand that goal, which is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1267.92,"endTime":1272.6,"body":"why, wow, how and why do"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1272.6,"endTime":1276.17,"body":"organizations work the way they"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1272.6,"endTime":1276.17,"body":"do, both in the ideal and not"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1276.17,"endTime":1280.49,"body":"ideal, and to be able to explain"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1276.17,"endTime":1280.49,"body":"it and ideally predicted, you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1280.49,"endTime":1284.78,"body":"know, using the most"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1280.49,"endTime":1284.78,"body":"parsimonious principles as"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1284.78,"endTime":1292.04,"body":"possible. So, and that notion of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1284.78,"endTime":1292.04,"body":"the principles parsimony, I just"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1292.04,"endTime":1297.47,"body":"love because, say the goal of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1292.04,"endTime":1297.47,"body":"science explained the most"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1297.47,"endTime":1299.96,"body":"amount of observable phenomenon,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1297.47,"endTime":1299.96,"body":"with the fewest number of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1299.96,"endTime":1303.17,"body":"principles, confirmed, deeply"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1299.96,"endTime":1303.17,"body":"held intuitions and reveal"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1303.17,"endTime":1308.51,"body":"surprising insights. And I think"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1303.17,"endTime":1308.51,"body":"the, I think what we're working"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1308.51,"endTime":1313.07,"body":"towards is, you know, to be able"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1308.51,"endTime":1313.07,"body":"to say, hey, how do I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1313.07,"endTime":1316.4,"body":"organization work, it can"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1313.07,"endTime":1316.4,"body":"actually be very simple. It's a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1316.4,"endTime":1320.03,"body":"function of primarily structure."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1316.4,"endTime":1320.03,"body":"So that could be like the org"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1320.03,"endTime":1323.93,"body":"chart. So the way we structure"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1320.03,"endTime":1323.93,"body":"our teams, and then in this in"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1323.93,"endTime":1326.06,"body":"certainly the software space, it"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1323.93,"endTime":1326.06,"body":"also includes the architecture"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1326.06,"endTime":1329.09,"body":"we work within. So Conway's Law,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1326.06,"endTime":1329.09,"body":"right, saying the structure"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1329.09,"endTime":1332.3,"body":"should be isomorphic, to the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1329.09,"endTime":1332.3,"body":"architecture, right. And also,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1332.3,"endTime":1336.26,"body":"those bad things happen if"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1332.3,"endTime":1336.26,"body":"they're not congruent. And then"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1336.29,"endTime":1340.25,"body":"you know, the dynamics and the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1336.29,"endTime":1340.25,"body":"outcomes are almost entirely a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1340.25,"endTime":1344.75,"body":"function of that. And so even"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1340.25,"endTime":1344.75,"body":"culture, we say, is a is a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1344.75,"endTime":1349.46,"body":"dynamic. So we can create a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1344.75,"endTime":1349.46,"body":"culture where weak signals are"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1349.52,"endTime":1352.67,"body":"amplified, you know, reinforced"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1349.52,"endTime":1352.67,"body":"by the top. So that's weak"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1352.67,"endTime":1356.27,"body":"signals, a failure can be"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1352.67,"endTime":1356.27,"body":"averted. Or we can create a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1356.27,"endTime":1359.36,"body":"system where, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1356.27,"endTime":1359.36,"body":"everyone's afraid to tell bad"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1359.36,"endTime":1364.04,"body":"news. So weak signals of failure"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1359.36,"endTime":1364.04,"body":"are suppressed, or maybe even"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1364.04,"endTime":1369.8,"body":"extinguished entirely. And so"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1364.04,"endTime":1369.8,"body":"think about maybe most recently,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1369.8,"endTime":1372.65,"body":"the 737 max issue of Boeing,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1369.8,"endTime":1372.65,"body":"right? What is it that happened,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1372.65,"endTime":1374.96,"body":"where so many people inside of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1372.65,"endTime":1374.96,"body":"Boeing said, you know, we could"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1374.96,"endTime":1379.16,"body":"see this coming? Right. And yet,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1374.96,"endTime":1379.16,"body":"it resulted in, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1380.27,"endTime":1386.45,"body":"failures that killed hundreds of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1380.27,"endTime":1386.45,"body":"people. So and so most recently,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1386.45,"endTime":1388.85,"body":"we've been working on what are"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1386.45,"endTime":1388.85,"body":"the specific characteristics of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1388.85,"endTime":1392.93,"body":"structure that must exist to be"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1388.85,"endTime":1392.93,"body":"high performing, you know, it"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1392.93,"endTime":1398.18,"body":"has to be simple meaning"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1392.93,"endTime":1398.18,"body":"modular. which ties into his"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1398.18,"endTime":1402.8,"body":"earliest work, duck Spears work"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1398.18,"endTime":1402.8,"body":"in 1989, the most widely"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1402.8,"endTime":1405.41,"body":"downloaded Harvard Business"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1402.8,"endTime":1405.41,"body":"Review article of all time,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1405.44,"endTime":1408.23,"body":"decoded DNA production. So"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1405.44,"endTime":1408.23,"body":"that's all about simplicity and"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1408.23,"endTime":1411.89,"body":"architecture. The second is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1408.23,"endTime":1411.89,"body":"standardization. So this means"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1411.89,"endTime":1413.93,"body":"that there has to be a strong"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1411.89,"endTime":1413.93,"body":"declaration of how things should"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1413.93,"endTime":1418.22,"body":"work. So, you know, we can think"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1413.93,"endTime":1418.22,"body":"about standardized work, we"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1418.22,"endTime":1421.01,"body":"could think about Netflix Chaos"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1418.22,"endTime":1421.01,"body":"Monkey, right, then the Simian"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1421.01,"endTime":1424.67,"body":"Army, all of them declare how"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1421.01,"endTime":1424.67,"body":"things should be working, which"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1424.7,"endTime":1428.12,"body":"gets to the third"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1424.7,"endTime":1428.12,"body":"characteristic, which is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1431.0,"endTime":1437.27,"body":"standardization, simplicity,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1431.0,"endTime":1437.27,"body":"simple, standard, synchronized,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1437.9,"endTime":1442.01,"body":"have stabilized, right? So"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1437.9,"endTime":1442.01,"body":"stabilize means that when"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1442.01,"endTime":1445.46,"body":"something goes wrong, it creates"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1442.01,"endTime":1445.46,"body":"it can be fixed locally, without"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1445.52,"endTime":1449.18,"body":"blowing up to become a global"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1445.52,"endTime":1449.18,"body":"issue. So think and on cord, and"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1449.18,"endTime":1452.66,"body":"then fifth is synchronized,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1449.18,"endTime":1452.66,"body":"meaning, you know, things are"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1453.17,"endTime":1457.58,"body":"the thinking is happening at the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1453.17,"endTime":1457.58,"body":"edges, not at the center, right,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1457.61,"endTime":1459.5,"body":"which simply cannot keep up. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1457.61,"endTime":1459.5,"body":"so,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1460.76,"endTime":1463.7,"body":"you know, we've come up with,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1460.76,"endTime":1463.7,"body":"we've kind of projected those"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1463.7,"endTime":1466.4,"body":"four characteristics into, you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1463.7,"endTime":1466.4,"body":"know, for example, Chaos Monkey"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1466.4,"endTime":1469.4,"body":"versus a tightly coupled,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1466.4,"endTime":1469.4,"body":"monolithic architecture, right."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1469.4,"endTime":1473.72,"body":"Why you know, why? The first has"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1469.4,"endTime":1473.72,"body":"all four characteristics while"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1474.65,"endTime":1480.11,"body":"the second has none. Whether"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1474.65,"endTime":1480.11,"body":"it's CSDs, ci CD pipeline versus"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1480.14,"endTime":1483.83,"body":"you know, infrequent"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1480.14,"endTime":1483.83,"body":"deployments, right? Showing one"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1483.83,"endTime":1488.21,"body":"has all one has none. Toyota"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1483.83,"endTime":1488.21,"body":"versus General Motors, right?"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1488.21,"endTime":1491.18,"body":"Why Toyota has all four General"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1488.21,"endTime":1491.18,"body":"Motors has none or back in the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1491.18,"endTime":1495.08,"body":"1980s TEMA Teams in the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1491.18,"endTime":1495.08,"body":"beginning why it had none right."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1495.08,"endTime":1498.23,"body":"But by the end it had all of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1495.08,"endTime":1498.23,"body":"them. So it's been incredibly"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1498.23,"endTime":1503.93,"body":"satisfying, you know, to be able"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1498.23,"endTime":1503.93,"body":"to I feel like what we're doing"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1503.93,"endTime":1506.6,"body":"is creating something has a lot"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1503.93,"endTime":1506.6,"body":"of explanatory power. It can no"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1506.63,"endTime":1507.86,"body":"Blaine. Why?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1508.49,"endTime":1510.44,"body":"Why No, I, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1508.49,"endTime":1510.44,"body":"know, again, like an AIPAC"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1510.44,"endTime":1513.29,"body":"issue. You covered a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1510.44,"endTime":1513.29,"body":"that. And then, you know, if we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1513.29,"endTime":1516.23,"body":"go back to like that we were"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1513.29,"endTime":1516.23,"body":"talking about that panel we did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1516.23,"endTime":1522.02,"body":"with Dr. Speier, Richard Cook,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1516.23,"endTime":1522.02,"body":"and Sidney Decker, right. Two"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1522.02,"endTime":1525.44,"body":"and a half hours if you're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1522.02,"endTime":1525.44,"body":"willing to door geek ism, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1525.92,"endTime":1528.92,"body":"that was that my frustration is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1525.92,"endTime":1528.92,"body":"that I kept hearing these"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1528.92,"endTime":1532.28,"body":"voices, I really saw Rathore and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1528.92,"endTime":1532.28,"body":"the biggest tragedies, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1532.28,"endTime":1535.4,"body":"couldn't get Rafa to be there,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1532.28,"endTime":1535.4,"body":"but but, you know, should have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1535.4,"endTime":1539.63,"body":"been Rother and sphere on one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1535.4,"endTime":1539.63,"body":"side of the table and Dr. Cook"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1539.66,"endTime":1544.19,"body":"and, and Sidney Decker on the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1539.66,"endTime":1544.19,"body":"other and, you know, I come to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1544.19,"endTime":1547.37,"body":"you and I said, you know, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1544.19,"endTime":1547.37,"body":"it's, it really is, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1547.37,"endTime":1550.94,"body":"frustrating to me that, I can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1547.37,"endTime":1550.94,"body":"see that they're both telling"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1550.94,"endTime":1554.66,"body":"the same story. But they can't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1550.94,"endTime":1554.66,"body":"see that they're telling you."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1556.7,"endTime":1559.61,"body":"You know, and I think that, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1556.7,"endTime":1559.61,"body":"know, when we, when we, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1559.61,"endTime":1562.4,"body":"know, if you ever get if people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1559.61,"endTime":1562.4,"body":"get a chance to watch that the,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1563.24,"endTime":1566.48,"body":"you know, you mean you someday"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1563.24,"endTime":1566.48,"body":"we'll do the Mystery Science"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1566.48,"endTime":1570.47,"body":"Theater 3000. But like, in the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1566.48,"endTime":1570.47,"body":"beginning, they're, they're sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1570.47,"endTime":1574.58,"body":"of like, you know, sort of an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1570.47,"endTime":1574.58,"body":"animals in the safari in Africa,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1574.58,"endTime":1577.79,"body":"you know, sort of, you know, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1574.58,"endTime":1577.79,"body":"horns are touching, but they're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1577.79,"endTime":1581.75,"body":"not, you know, in in somewhere,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1577.79,"endTime":1581.75,"body":"they start, like having these"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1581.75,"endTime":1585.62,"body":"sort of glorious agreements. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1581.75,"endTime":1585.62,"body":"but then, you know, I get the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1585.62,"endTime":1588.83,"body":"sense that, like, that was just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1585.62,"endTime":1588.83,"body":"a point in time. And now, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1588.83,"endTime":1593.12,"body":"don't see them collaborating."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1588.83,"endTime":1593.12,"body":"But if you read hivelocity edge,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1593.12,"endTime":1597.02,"body":"and then you sort of you, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1593.12,"endTime":1597.02,"body":"sort of read something by Decker"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1597.02,"endTime":1601.52,"body":"you like, like, if you're not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1597.02,"endTime":1601.52,"body":"deeply in one of those tribes,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1602.27,"endTime":1605.78,"body":"like, you see the commonality of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1602.27,"endTime":1605.78,"body":"what they're saying,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1606.02,"endTime":1608.48,"body":"Yeah, I think that is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1606.02,"endTime":1608.48,"body":"what's so exciting to me. And I,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1608.87,"endTime":1612.56,"body":"and I really want to thank you,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1608.87,"endTime":1612.56,"body":"for you pointed this out. So"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1612.56,"endTime":1615.29,"body":"early on, and here's how I would"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1612.56,"endTime":1615.29,"body":"describe it now is that, you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1615.29,"endTime":1617.75,"body":"know, whether you're talking"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1615.29,"endTime":1617.75,"body":"about system dynamics, or"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1617.75,"endTime":1621.14,"body":"learning organizations, or you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1617.75,"endTime":1621.14,"body":"know, psychological safety, or"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1621.71,"endTime":1624.89,"body":"lean, or, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1621.71,"endTime":1624.89,"body":"architecture, modularity, or"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1624.89,"endTime":1630.62,"body":"culture, I think all of them are"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1624.89,"endTime":1630.62,"body":"incomplete expressions of a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1630.62,"endTime":1638.69,"body":"greater whole. I would say, This"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1630.62,"endTime":1638.69,"body":"sounds maybe a little bit overly"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1638.69,"endTime":1642.5,"body":"grand, but I think I can view"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1638.69,"endTime":1642.5,"body":"this work with a spear is trying"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1642.5,"endTime":1646.73,"body":"to come up with, towards a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1642.5,"endTime":1646.73,"body":"theory of organizations. And,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1647.48,"endTime":1652.4,"body":"yeah, without acknowledging that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1647.48,"endTime":1652.4,"body":"all, you know, so all of those"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1652.4,"endTime":1658.43,"body":"are deep centers of expertise"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1652.4,"endTime":1658.43,"body":"and knowledge and a corpus in"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1658.43,"endTime":1660.95,"body":"and of itself. Alright, but"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1658.43,"endTime":1660.95,"body":"that's got to be wouldn't be"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1660.95,"endTime":1664.82,"body":"great. Right to be able to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1660.95,"endTime":1664.82,"body":"serve, as you've noticed, and"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1665.0,"endTime":1667.04,"body":"your as what you suspected"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1665.0,"endTime":1667.04,"body":"before we put together that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1667.04,"endTime":1671.39,"body":"panel, right, is that they, they"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1667.04,"endTime":1671.39,"body":"are they're not totally"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1671.39,"endTime":1674.33,"body":"disparate? I do with the Venn"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1671.39,"endTime":1674.33,"body":"diagram that they, they have a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1674.33,"endTime":1675.77,"body":"lot in common. And I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1675.77,"endTime":1679.79,"body":"mean, like, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1675.77,"endTime":1679.79,"body":"they're like lockstep on a lot"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1679.79,"endTime":1682.37,"body":"of things, you know, when you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1679.79,"endTime":1682.37,"body":"talk about the sort of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1682.76,"endTime":1686.42,"body":"resilience and safety, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1682.76,"endTime":1686.42,"body":"how they think about, like, in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1686.42,"endTime":1690.44,"body":"your case, you know, the, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1686.42,"endTime":1690.44,"body":"edge, you know, you know, making"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1690.44,"endTime":1694.94,"body":"sure that Lisa, you know, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1690.44,"endTime":1694.94,"body":"sort of dominant, like, control"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1694.94,"endTime":1699.05,"body":"structures, you know, kill"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1694.94,"endTime":1699.05,"body":"people, you know, what I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1699.08,"endTime":1702.26,"body":"you know, where, whereas, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1699.08,"endTime":1702.26,"body":"know, so that, you know, that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1702.26,"endTime":1707.48,"body":"whole idea of, you know, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1702.26,"endTime":1707.48,"body":"sort of the gamba idea, or the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1707.69,"endTime":1711.59,"body":"the sort of the, the learning"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1707.69,"endTime":1711.59,"body":"and Walker talked"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1711.59,"endTime":1712.58,"body":"about, right."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1713.09,"endTime":1716.03,"body":"You know, I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1713.09,"endTime":1716.03,"body":"that's sort of deeply entwined"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1716.03,"endTime":1719.06,"body":"in sort of Decker woods and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1716.03,"endTime":1719.06,"body":"cooks writing. Yeah, in"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1719.06,"endTime":1721.46,"body":"fact, to your point, I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1719.06,"endTime":1721.46,"body":"mean, it's, it's a bit of an aha"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1721.46,"endTime":1723.92,"body":"moment, right? I mean, the whole"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1721.46,"endTime":1723.92,"body":"notion of a gamba, right, is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1723.92,"endTime":1726.77,"body":"that you don't learn from my"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1723.92,"endTime":1726.77,"body":"desk, you know, through status"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1726.77,"endTime":1730.04,"body":"reports, you have to go to the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1726.77,"endTime":1730.04,"body":"shop floor, dude, go to the, you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1730.04,"endTime":1733.07,"body":"know, IDs and so forth, right to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1730.04,"endTime":1733.07,"body":"actually see how we're working"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1733.07,"endTime":1736.28,"body":"to be performed. And so that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1733.07,"endTime":1736.28,"body":"means, in kind of the language"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1736.28,"endTime":1740.3,"body":"here is that, you know, this is,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1736.28,"endTime":1740.3,"body":"this is the learning happens at"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1740.3,"endTime":1744.62,"body":"the edge. Right, and this is not"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1740.3,"endTime":1744.62,"body":"gonna happen in the center,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1744.62,"endTime":1746.69,"body":"right, the center has to go to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1744.62,"endTime":1746.69,"body":"the edge. And you know, for me,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1746.69,"endTime":1751.13,"body":"just maybe one of the big aha"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1746.69,"endTime":1751.13,"body":"moments for me is that, I think"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1751.13,"endTime":1757.1,"body":"the classic example of low"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1751.13,"endTime":1757.1,"body":"performance is that the edge is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1757.31,"endTime":1761.12,"body":"working in slow mode, and the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1757.31,"endTime":1761.12,"body":"center is working in fast mode."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1761.12,"endTime":1765.05,"body":"So fast mode is expediting your"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1761.12,"endTime":1765.05,"body":"handling, you know, escalations"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1765.05,"endTime":1767.87,"body":"and so forth. Right? Because the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1765.05,"endTime":1767.87,"body":"edge can't do it nice. So it is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1767.87,"endTime":1770.48,"body":"stuck in slow mode, where we"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1767.87,"endTime":1770.48,"body":"really want is the edge to be"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1770.48,"endTime":1775.91,"body":"working in fast mode, right? In"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1770.48,"endTime":1775.91,"body":"routines in state of flow. You"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1775.91,"endTime":1778.28,"body":"know, they get to help when they"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1775.91,"endTime":1778.28,"body":"need help they get the help they"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1778.28,"endTime":1783.02,"body":"need. And that allows leadership"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1778.28,"endTime":1783.02,"body":"to be truly in slow mode and"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1783.02,"endTime":1786.68,"body":"more slow, a slower, more"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1783.02,"endTime":1786.68,"body":"deliberative, contemplative"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1786.68,"endTime":1790.46,"body":"style, like General Stanley"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1786.68,"endTime":1790.46,"body":"McChrystal. You know, when he"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1790.46,"endTime":1794.57,"body":"inherited the story in the team"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1790.46,"endTime":1794.57,"body":"teams, right. When he asked, are"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1794.57,"endTime":1798.23,"body":"we achieving the goals of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1794.57,"endTime":1798.23,"body":"dismantling the enemy terrorist"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1798.23,"endTime":1801.41,"body":"networks in Iraq? And the answer"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1798.23,"endTime":1801.41,"body":"was no So you reconfigured the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1801.41,"endTime":1804.77,"body":"organization, so that you know,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1801.41,"endTime":1804.77,"body":"the end state, they could go"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1804.77,"endTime":1810.65,"body":"from, you know, and me citing by"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1804.77,"endTime":1810.65,"body":"22 year old drone operator to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1810.65,"endTime":1814.22,"body":"capture 45 minutes later, right?"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1810.65,"endTime":1814.22,"body":"That could not happen absolutely"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1814.22,"endTime":1816.44,"body":"not happen if you have to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1814.22,"endTime":1816.44,"body":"escalate up eight levels. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1816.44,"endTime":1819.62,"body":"then down eight, right in order"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1816.44,"endTime":1819.62,"body":"to go from citing capital, there"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1819.62,"endTime":1820.46,"body":"will be no capture."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1821.54,"endTime":1825.77,"body":"But you'd mentioned"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1821.54,"endTime":1825.77,"body":"like the Boeing 737 Max, right."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1825.77,"endTime":1828.11,"body":"And like, did anybody right, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1825.77,"endTime":1828.11,"body":"know, so Steve's here has like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1828.11,"endTime":1832.28,"body":"these brilliant stories about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1828.11,"endTime":1832.28,"body":"what is it the the Challenger,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1832.52,"endTime":1835.22,"body":"or the Columbia? Like, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1832.52,"endTime":1835.22,"body":"it was Columbia, right. Which"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1835.25,"endTime":1838.7,"body":"the thermal panel and, and how,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1835.25,"endTime":1838.7,"body":"like, you know, this sort of,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1839.33,"endTime":1842.21,"body":"like, No, it was a sort of anti"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1839.33,"endTime":1842.21,"body":"gamba story, like, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1842.21,"endTime":1844.88,"body":"like, we've seen that before."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1842.21,"endTime":1844.88,"body":"He's got a couple of great"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1844.88,"endTime":1848.27,"body":"stories. I just did a whole a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1844.88,"endTime":1848.27,"body":"deeper analysis on night"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1848.27,"endTime":1851.42,"body":"capital, you know, and I, and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1848.27,"endTime":1851.42,"body":"know that I'm going to get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1851.42,"endTime":1855.08,"body":"pounded, but my good friend,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1851.42,"endTime":1855.08,"body":"John and his, they're gonna"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1855.2,"endTime":1858.29,"body":"throw a counterfactual at me."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1855.2,"endTime":1858.29,"body":"And I tried to say like, this is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1858.29,"endTime":1862.58,"body":"a thought exercise. But, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1858.29,"endTime":1862.58,"body":"know, the question. So not only"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1862.82,"endTime":1870.11,"body":"was we know, the story of like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1862.82,"endTime":1870.11,"body":"the sysadmin, deployed to seven"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1870.11,"endTime":1872.6,"body":"servers in an eight server"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1870.11,"endTime":1872.6,"body":"cluster, there was some old code"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1872.6,"endTime":1876.41,"body":"on a close, sort of closer, that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1872.6,"endTime":1876.41,"body":"old code was actually test code"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1876.41,"endTime":1882.71,"body":"that did that literally did high"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1876.41,"endTime":1882.71,"body":"frequency, buy high sell low to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1882.71,"endTime":1885.32,"body":"validate the algorithms, right?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1882.71,"endTime":1885.32,"body":"But it got turned on in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1885.32,"endTime":1889.13,"body":"production at scale, right,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1885.32,"endTime":1889.13,"body":"like, you know, so we won't so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1889.37,"endTime":1892.58,"body":"like they lost while they were"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1889.37,"endTime":1892.58,"body":"like 6 billion in lost like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1892.58,"endTime":1896.33,"body":"liquidity in like, 40 minutes,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1892.58,"endTime":1896.33,"body":"they lost 500 million, they were"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1896.33,"endTime":1899.6,"body":"sort of out of business. But I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1896.33,"endTime":1899.6,"body":"asked the question of all the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1899.6,"endTime":1904.61,"body":"things that sort of led up to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1899.6,"endTime":1904.61,"body":"that right, you know, and in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1904.61,"endTime":1910.7,"body":"like, the question I ask is, did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1904.61,"endTime":1910.7,"body":"anybody did anybody see this?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1911.48,"endTime":1914.36,"body":"train wreck coming? Right? Did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1911.48,"endTime":1914.36,"body":"you know I got into a long"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1914.36,"endTime":1918.5,"body":"conversation with Dr. Kirk one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1914.36,"endTime":1918.5,"body":"time about, like, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1918.5,"endTime":1921.62,"body":"said, like, did anybody even ask"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1918.5,"endTime":1921.62,"body":"if they were using chef puppet"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1921.62,"endTime":1924.68,"body":"or Ansible? And not like, and he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1921.62,"endTime":1924.68,"body":"was like, counterfactual the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1924.68,"endTime":1930.77,"body":"counterfactual about a penalty,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1924.68,"endTime":1930.77,"body":"right, a 15 yard penalty. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1930.8,"endTime":1933.62,"body":"but the point is, like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1930.8,"endTime":1933.62,"body":"know, I think in a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1933.62,"endTime":1938.06,"body":"organizations, you know, we set"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1933.62,"endTime":1938.06,"body":"this trap to your point about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1938.06,"endTime":1945.86,"body":"bowling is that we don't enable"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1938.06,"endTime":1945.86,"body":"a social structure to allow"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1945.86,"endTime":1948.89,"body":"people feel a psychological"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1945.86,"endTime":1948.89,"body":"safety, to feel comfortable,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1948.95,"endTime":1953.06,"body":"because when you look in these,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1948.95,"endTime":1953.06,"body":"in a postmodern perspective, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1953.06,"endTime":1957.08,"body":"believe it's unfair to sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1953.06,"endTime":1957.08,"body":"judge them. And that's the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1957.08,"endTime":1959.75,"body":"that's sort of the resilience"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1957.08,"endTime":1959.75,"body":"point is the counterfactual. You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1959.75,"endTime":1961.97,"body":"weren't there. You don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1959.75,"endTime":1961.97,"body":"understand decisions they had to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1961.97,"endTime":1966.44,"body":"make. But I do think it's fair"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1961.97,"endTime":1966.44,"body":"to ask the question, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1966.44,"endTime":1971.12,"body":"were there people involved in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1966.44,"endTime":1971.12,"body":"this? Yeah, really. So. So you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1971.12,"endTime":1974.48,"body":"know, like, hey, you know, maybe"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1971.12,"endTime":1974.48,"body":"what do you order stop this?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1974.87,"endTime":1975.56,"body":"Right. And by the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1975.56,"endTime":1979.1,"body":"way, I do acknowledge"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1975.56,"endTime":1979.1,"body":"the danger of counterfactuals."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1979.1,"endTime":1982.49,"body":"In fact, I wish I could remember"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1979.1,"endTime":1982.49,"body":"this quote about like, why, you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1982.49,"endTime":1985.7,"body":"know, it's, it's so dangerous,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1982.49,"endTime":1985.7,"body":"but I think what's interesting"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1985.7,"endTime":1990.71,"body":"to me, I believe, here's how I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1985.7,"endTime":1990.71,"body":"would reward that. So Dr. Ron"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1990.71,"endTime":1994.76,"body":"Westrom introduced me to the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1990.71,"endTime":1994.76,"body":"term, the technical Maestro. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1994.76,"endTime":1998.39,"body":"I'm just going to change the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1994.76,"endTime":1998.39,"body":"language slightly and call it a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1998.39,"endTime":2002.32,"body":"socio technical Maestro. And as"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":1998.39,"endTime":2002.32,"body":"he said, it has basically five"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2002.56,"endTime":2007.36,"body":"characteristics, high energy,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2002.56,"endTime":2007.36,"body":"high standards, great in the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2007.36,"endTime":2010.6,"body":"large, also great in the small,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2007.36,"endTime":2010.6,"body":"so that they know how to ask"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2010.6,"endTime":2013.69,"body":"good questions, and they love"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2010.6,"endTime":2013.69,"body":"walking the floor. And when I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2013.69,"endTime":2018.97,"body":"heard that, I mean, it was"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2013.69,"endTime":2018.97,"body":"jarring. I was like, can you say"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2018.97,"endTime":2023.59,"body":"that? Again? It just for me, it"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2018.97,"endTime":2023.59,"body":"has such incredible explanatory"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2023.59,"endTime":2027.04,"body":"power. For me. It simultaneously"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2023.59,"endTime":2027.04,"body":"explains, you know, those"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2027.04,"endTime":2029.62,"body":"situations, you know, in our"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2027.04,"endTime":2029.62,"body":"lives when things are going"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2029.65,"endTime":2033.07,"body":"amazing, fully supported by"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2029.65,"endTime":2033.07,"body":"who's at the top. And it also"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2033.07,"endTime":2037.42,"body":"explains when things are going"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2033.07,"endTime":2037.42,"body":"terribly, fully enabled by who's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2037.42,"endTime":2041.08,"body":"at the top. And so there's a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2037.42,"endTime":2041.08,"body":"corollary to this. He said, it"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2041.08,"endTime":2045.55,"body":"was raffinose Law number 23. If"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2041.08,"endTime":2045.55,"body":"you have a dope at the top, you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2045.55,"endTime":2050.44,"body":"will have or soon will have"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2045.55,"endTime":2050.44,"body":"dopes all the way down. So, so,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2051.34,"endTime":2057.16,"body":"so I think what's amazing, is in"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2051.34,"endTime":2057.16,"body":"these high performing"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2057.19,"endTime":2060.55,"body":"organizations of which, for this"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2057.19,"endTime":2060.55,"body":"book, you know, that will"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2060.55,"endTime":2064.24,"body":"hopefully come out in 2023,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2060.55,"endTime":2064.24,"body":"maybe 2024, right? We're saying,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2064.27,"endTime":2067.69,"body":"you know, in 150 years, whether"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2064.27,"endTime":2067.69,"body":"it's agile DevOps, you know, uh,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2068.2,"endTime":2073.72,"body":"you know, let's take a look at"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2068.2,"endTime":2073.72,"body":"in 150 years of great"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2073.72,"endTime":2077.53,"body":"organizations, decimating"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2073.72,"endTime":2077.53,"body":"horrible organization. So, what"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2077.53,"endTime":2081.25,"body":"are those Team of Teams after"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2077.53,"endTime":2081.25,"body":"versus before the US Navy in"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2081.25,"endTime":2085.45,"body":"World War Two versus a Japanese"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2081.25,"endTime":2085.45,"body":"Navy, the US Navy Nuclear"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2085.45,"endTime":2089.26,"body":"Reactor program versus the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2085.45,"endTime":2089.26,"body":"Soviet Navy's the Polish special"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2089.26,"endTime":2093.04,"body":"program versus the Apollo space"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2089.26,"endTime":2093.04,"body":"program versus the US Space"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2093.04,"endTime":2097.06,"body":"Shuttle Program? Toyota versus"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2093.04,"endTime":2097.06,"body":"gentlemen. DevOps versus"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2097.06,"endTime":2100.69,"body":"waterfall? Yeah, Apple iPhone"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2097.06,"endTime":2100.69,"body":"versus Nokia. Yeah. As I think,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2101.26,"endTime":2104.71,"body":"you know, in general, right, in"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2101.26,"endTime":2104.71,"body":"fact, I believe, in each case,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2104.74,"endTime":2108.55,"body":"you, there has to been that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2104.74,"endTime":2108.55,"body":"sociotechnical Maestro and and"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2108.58,"endTime":2112.84,"body":"the, a great example that I just"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2108.58,"endTime":2112.84,"body":"did a recent aha moment is, you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2112.84,"endTime":2117.55,"body":"know, the you and I both read a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2112.84,"endTime":2117.55,"body":"lot of books about Admiral Hyman"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2117.55,"endTime":2122.08,"body":"Rickover, the father of the US"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2117.55,"endTime":2122.08,"body":"nuclear Navy, I just read a book"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2122.08,"endTime":2124.81,"body":"called from the other side of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2122.08,"endTime":2124.81,"body":"the periscope. And it was"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2124.81,"endTime":2129.07,"body":"written by a US Navy submarine"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2124.81,"endTime":2129.07,"body":"captain and the Soviet Captain"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2129.07,"endTime":2132.67,"body":"counterpart, and it was the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2129.07,"endTime":2132.67,"body":"longest trail, I think that span"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2132.67,"endTime":2137.92,"body":"30 days of a US sub trailing a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2132.67,"endTime":2137.92,"body":"Soviet Echo to class up. Anyway,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2139.03,"endTime":2143.35,"body":"there was one line that blew me"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2139.03,"endTime":2143.35,"body":"away, it was apparently, in the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2143.35,"endTime":2148.78,"body":"US Navy, the NR program, the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2143.35,"endTime":2148.78,"body":"Nuclear Reactor program has a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2148.81,"endTime":2152.23,"body":"chain of command as outside of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2148.81,"endTime":2152.23,"body":"the standard chain of command."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2152.98,"endTime":2158.08,"body":"So in order for a ship to sail,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2152.98,"endTime":2158.08,"body":"they have to get clearance from"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2158.11,"endTime":2163.78,"body":"usnr, which is led by a four"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2158.11,"endTime":2163.78,"body":"star Admiral, and so. So here's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2163.78,"endTime":2168.7,"body":"the associate sociotechnical"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2163.78,"endTime":2168.7,"body":"mechanism to make sure that, you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2168.7,"endTime":2172.48,"body":"know, you're uncompromising in"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2168.7,"endTime":2172.48,"body":"terms of safety, as I think the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2172.51,"endTime":2176.41,"body":"these maestro's understand not"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2172.51,"endTime":2176.41,"body":"just the technology side, but"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2176.41,"endTime":2179.53,"body":"they understand the social"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2176.41,"endTime":2179.53,"body":"structures, the social circuits"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2179.53,"endTime":2181.9,"body":"that need to be there, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2179.53,"endTime":2181.9,"body":"for us to get the right things,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2181.9,"endTime":2186.1,"body":"right, which I would"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2181.9,"endTime":2186.1,"body":"hypothesize, right, it was at,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2186.1,"endTime":2189.22,"body":"you know, those mechanisms were"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2186.1,"endTime":2189.22,"body":"absent, at going right, so that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2189.22,"endTime":2194.08,"body":"these signals of these early"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2189.22,"endTime":2194.08,"body":"warnings, right, could not get"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2194.08,"endTime":2197.11,"body":"transmitted to the right place"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2194.08,"endTime":2197.11,"body":"to meet to let the right things"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2197.11,"endTime":2200.23,"body":"happen, right, probably nightcap"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2197.11,"endTime":2200.23,"body":"night capital pile. And I can"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2201.16,"endTime":2201.55,"body":"think of a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2201.55,"endTime":2203.62,"body":"classic example,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2201.55,"endTime":2203.62,"body":"which was, you know, and so,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2203.83,"endTime":2206.47,"body":"again, like I worry about sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2203.83,"endTime":2206.47,"body":"of getting pounded by the whole"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2206.47,"endTime":2209.44,"body":"counterfactual thing, but the,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2206.47,"endTime":2209.44,"body":"you know, they're about to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2209.44,"endTime":2215.17,"body":"launch the first sort of NYSC,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2209.44,"endTime":2215.17,"body":"black box trading or, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2215.2,"endTime":2219.19,"body":"basically RLP system, like the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2215.2,"endTime":2219.19,"body":"industry has just announced this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2219.19,"endTime":2223.24,"body":"ability to sort of run your code"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2219.19,"endTime":2223.24,"body":"in one of the NYS C's, it was a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2223.24,"endTime":2227.86,"body":"big deal. So Knight capital is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2223.24,"endTime":2227.86,"body":"basically. And it's one of those"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2227.86,"endTime":2230.32,"body":"things where they had 30 days to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2227.86,"endTime":2230.32,"body":"implement. But here's the thing."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2231.76,"endTime":2234.07,"body":"And, in fact, I'd like to get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2231.76,"endTime":2234.07,"body":"your opinion on this, because"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2234.1,"endTime":2237.4,"body":"somebody said, I'll tell you,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2234.1,"endTime":2237.4,"body":"sorry, then I'll tell you what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2237.4,"endTime":2244.99,"body":"somebody said to me. But the day"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2237.4,"endTime":2244.99,"body":"of that launch, the CEO had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2244.99,"endTime":2249.58,"body":"overlapping knee surgery and was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2244.99,"endTime":2249.58,"body":"out of the office. Alright, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2249.58,"endTime":2254.08,"body":"on top of that, so why does the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2249.58,"endTime":2254.08,"body":"CEO need to be involved, let's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2254.08,"endTime":2259.9,"body":"let's table that. The, for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2254.08,"endTime":2259.9,"body":"whatever reason, the NYSC only"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2259.9,"endTime":2266.83,"body":"had his contact information. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2259.9,"endTime":2266.83,"body":"the NYSC is watching a level of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2266.83,"endTime":2270.97,"body":"trading. So there's already"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2266.83,"endTime":2270.97,"body":"sacred circuit breakers in place"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2270.97,"endTime":2274.0,"body":"because of price swings. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2270.97,"endTime":2274.0,"body":"there are no sick ranges for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2274.3,"endTime":2277.84,"body":"insane trading, I feel that the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2274.3,"endTime":2277.84,"body":"number increase was within the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2277.84,"endTime":2282.94,"body":"first hour on that day. And so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2277.84,"endTime":2282.94,"body":"their first response is to go to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2282.94,"endTime":2288.07,"body":"try to contact the CEO. And so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2282.94,"endTime":2288.07,"body":"there's a whole delay between"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2288.07,"endTime":2291.31,"body":"that and getting to the CIO,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2288.07,"endTime":2291.31,"body":"and, and, you know, and some of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2291.31,"endTime":2294.07,"body":"those, and why does the CEO need"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2291.31,"endTime":2294.07,"body":"to know about this? I'm like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2294.07,"endTime":2297.28,"body":"Well, I mean, it's the one of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2294.07,"endTime":2297.28,"body":"the biggest sort of trading"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2297.31,"endTime":2304.09,"body":"changes that they've made the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2297.31,"endTime":2304.09,"body":"onus or LP, and but the I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2304.09,"endTime":2307.63,"body":"the point is, there was like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2304.09,"endTime":2307.63,"body":"people couldn't make decision,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2307.66,"endTime":2310.48,"body":"there was all this, like, if you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2307.66,"endTime":2310.48,"body":"go in and sort of read the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2310.48,"endTime":2313.96,"body":"details, there are a bunch of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2310.48,"endTime":2313.96,"body":"people, even sis admins that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2313.96,"endTime":2317.29,"body":"were monitoring the situation at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2313.96,"endTime":2317.29,"body":"night capital might have been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2317.29,"endTime":2322.93,"body":"able to, you know, dealer, just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2317.29,"endTime":2322.93,"body":"really pull the NR cord and say,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2322.93,"endTime":2326.83,"body":"hey, you know, you know, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2322.93,"endTime":2326.83,"body":"I've even talked to other high"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2326.83,"endTime":2328.78,"body":"frequency trading guys, and they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2326.83,"endTime":2328.78,"body":"would say, yeah, no, no, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2328.78,"endTime":2332.23,"body":"would really kill the routers,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2328.78,"endTime":2332.23,"body":"you know, we like, we've seen"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2332.23,"endTime":2335.05,"body":"this in about five, you know, so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2332.23,"endTime":2335.05,"body":"again, counterfactual, but they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2335.05,"endTime":2338.8,"body":"said that happened. Like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2335.05,"endTime":2338.8,"body":"there's already a protocol to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2338.8,"endTime":2342.88,"body":"shut off the border routers,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2338.8,"endTime":2342.88,"body":"right. And, and, but it was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2342.88,"endTime":2343.6,"body":"interesting. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2344.29,"endTime":2347.02,"body":"And let me just"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2344.29,"endTime":2347.02,"body":"rephrase that. I don't claim any"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2347.02,"endTime":2350.77,"body":"expertise or knowledge about any"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2347.02,"endTime":2350.77,"body":"of this. So sounds like what you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2350.77,"endTime":2353.74,"body":"just said is that in more"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2350.77,"endTime":2353.74,"body":"typical high frequency trading"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2353.74,"endTime":2358.21,"body":"firm, everyone understands is a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2353.74,"endTime":2358.21,"body":"risk of a runaway program,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2358.21,"endTime":2362.95,"body":"right? And so, if anyone sees"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2358.21,"endTime":2362.95,"body":"that, anyone, you know, if"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2362.95,"endTime":2365.35,"body":"someone if they decide that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2362.95,"endTime":2365.35,"body":"something really terrible is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2365.35,"endTime":2367.75,"body":"happening, they will disconnect"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2365.35,"endTime":2367.75,"body":"the router, right, and at least"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2368.32,"endTime":2368.92,"body":"isolate."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2370.0,"endTime":2372.58,"body":"You have to wait to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2370.0,"endTime":2372.58,"body":"get called a guy who was like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2372.58,"endTime":2375.19,"body":"sitting on his bed, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2372.58,"endTime":2375.19,"body":"medicated because,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2375.82,"endTime":2382.12,"body":"right. And I guess the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2375.82,"endTime":2382.12,"body":"My question would be what, aside"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2382.12,"endTime":2388.54,"body":"from that, were there other"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2382.12,"endTime":2388.54,"body":"weeks failure signals that that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2388.57,"endTime":2391.78,"body":"could have hinted at, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2388.57,"endTime":2391.78,"body":"the, the fact that there was a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2392.26,"endTime":2393.7,"body":"vulnerability in the system?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2394.42,"endTime":2396.79,"body":"Yeah. And I think I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2394.42,"endTime":2396.79,"body":"mean, again, this is sort of a,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2397.24,"endTime":2400.75,"body":"a counterfactual musical, if you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2397.24,"endTime":2400.75,"body":"will, but I But yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2400.75,"endTime":2405.31,"body":"all the things that again, I go"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2400.75,"endTime":2405.31,"body":"back to like, I think, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2405.34,"endTime":2409.12,"body":"there had to be some people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2405.34,"endTime":2409.12,"body":"watching what was happening."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2409.93,"endTime":2412.51,"body":"That was just, you know, me and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2409.93,"endTime":2412.51,"body":"you know, we talked to a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2412.51,"endTime":2416.08,"body":"corporations when you talk to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2412.51,"endTime":2416.08,"body":"people like, yeah, no, I knew"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2416.08,"endTime":2419.05,"body":"that wasn't gonna work or Yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2416.08,"endTime":2419.05,"body":"I could I tried to challenge"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2419.05,"endTime":2422.41,"body":"him. Right. And you know, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2419.05,"endTime":2422.41,"body":"for some reason, you're right,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2422.41,"endTime":2427.69,"body":"these were weak signals that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2422.41,"endTime":2427.69,"body":"just didn't. You know, like, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2427.69,"endTime":2431.8,"body":"question is like, what is your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2427.69,"endTime":2431.8,"body":"sort of? What is your social"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2431.8,"endTime":2436.84,"body":"technical construct? Yep. Yep."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2431.8,"endTime":2436.84,"body":"It is. Where? You know, I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2436.84,"endTime":2441.04,"body":"you've talked about the poem,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2436.84,"endTime":2441.04,"body":"Neil. Story, right? Which is a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2441.04,"endTime":2445.09,"body":"fantastic story. Right. You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2441.04,"endTime":2445.09,"body":"know, Paul knew when he went"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2445.09,"endTime":2448.99,"body":"into our core, and you know, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2445.09,"endTime":2448.99,"body":"that whole sort of, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2448.99,"endTime":2451.9,"body":"that sort of reverse, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2448.99,"endTime":2451.9,"body":"like, he wanted to know, every"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2451.9,"endTime":2456.7,"body":"injury within 24 hours, and it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2451.9,"endTime":2456.7,"body":"created the sort of reverse it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2456.7,"endTime":2458.8,"body":"create a communication model"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2456.7,"endTime":2458.8,"body":"where people sort of learned,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2459.13,"endTime":2464.14,"body":"yeah, I love this. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2459.13,"endTime":2464.14,"body":"yeah, the essentially the way,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2464.14,"endTime":2470.74,"body":"this showing up in the spirit,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2464.14,"endTime":2470.74,"body":"Kim book, which is unnamed yet"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2471.46,"endTime":2475.09,"body":"is that, you know, the more"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2471.46,"endTime":2475.09,"body":"consequential and the more"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2475.12,"endTime":2478.27,"body":"irreversible the an unforgiving"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2475.12,"endTime":2478.27,"body":"the production environment is,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2478.81,"endTime":2483.82,"body":"the more you have to focus on"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2478.81,"endTime":2483.82,"body":"planning and preparation. So"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2484.39,"endTime":2487.09,"body":"this comes from Admiral John"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2484.39,"endTime":2487.09,"body":"Richardson plan, perform, I'm"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2487.09,"endTime":2492.7,"body":"sorry, plan, prepare, perform,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2487.09,"endTime":2492.7,"body":"so the three Ps. And so to the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2492.7,"endTime":2495.43,"body":"night capital issue, and again,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2492.7,"endTime":2495.43,"body":"I don't claim any knowledge or"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2495.43,"endTime":2499.3,"body":"expertise on this is that but I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2495.43,"endTime":2499.3,"body":"mean, I think in any unforgiving"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2499.33,"endTime":2503.56,"body":"production environment, whether"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2499.33,"endTime":2503.56,"body":"it's a hostage rescue, high"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2503.56,"endTime":2505.12,"body":"frequency trading operation,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2507.58,"endTime":2509.77,"body":"hospital patient care,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2507.58,"endTime":2509.77,"body":"hospital patient care,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2509.77,"endTime":2515.32,"body":"right? If you, then"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2509.77,"endTime":2515.32,"body":"the more unforgiving that is,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2515.35,"endTime":2519.16,"body":"the more you have to prepare,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2515.35,"endTime":2519.16,"body":"and before that you have to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2519.16,"endTime":2522.31,"body":"plan. And so this is where you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2519.16,"endTime":2522.31,"body":"do the red teaming. This is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2522.31,"endTime":2525.43,"body":"where you do the drills. This is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2522.31,"endTime":2525.43,"body":"where you develop shorthands,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2525.73,"endTime":2532.06,"body":"you know, and routines between"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2525.73,"endTime":2532.06,"body":"the teams. And so I loved"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2532.06,"endTime":2534.37,"body":"reading the Gene Kranz book"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2532.06,"endTime":2534.37,"body":"failure is not an option."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2534.37,"endTime":2537.16,"body":"Yes, you turn to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2534.37,"endTime":2537.16,"body":"that too. Yeah. Oh, so fun."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2537.19,"endTime":2540.25,"body":"I mean, yeah. So"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2537.19,"endTime":2540.25,"body":"apparently, like in Apollo 11."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2540.28,"endTime":2544.84,"body":"In preparation for that, I think"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2540.28,"endTime":2544.84,"body":"there in the simulations, the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2544.84,"endTime":2547.03,"body":"simulations were all about going"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2544.84,"endTime":2547.03,"body":"through the checklist, right?"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2547.03,"endTime":2549.43,"body":"And seeing, you know, can we"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2547.03,"endTime":2549.43,"body":"land on the moon, and I think"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2549.43,"endTime":2553.24,"body":"they crashed, then Neil"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2549.43,"endTime":2553.24,"body":"Armstrong and team crashed 10"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2553.24,"endTime":2559.06,"body":"times in a row. And they"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2553.24,"endTime":2559.06,"body":"realized they weren't giving"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2559.06,"endTime":2563.86,"body":"enough discretion to the pilots."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2559.06,"endTime":2563.86,"body":"Right. And so this, he changed"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2563.86,"endTime":2566.92,"body":"the procedures so that they had"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2563.86,"endTime":2566.92,"body":"more discretion to choose"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2566.92,"endTime":2569.44,"body":"landing site or something. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2566.92,"endTime":2569.44,"body":"now they did the first landing."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2569.44,"endTime":2576.22,"body":"But at that, I think that's an"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2569.44,"endTime":2576.22,"body":"example that says that, you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2576.22,"endTime":2579.58,"body":"know, for the Apollo program,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2576.22,"endTime":2579.58,"body":"there was this incredible"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2580.66,"endTime":2584.08,"body":"emphasis on drills on"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2580.66,"endTime":2584.08,"body":"understanding every anomaly. So"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2584.11,"endTime":2587.29,"body":"a potential failure signal,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2584.11,"endTime":2587.29,"body":"there was something called there"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2587.29,"endTime":2590.08,"body":"was this ritual that gene Krantz"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2587.29,"endTime":2590.08,"body":"put in place that, at the end of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2590.08,"endTime":2593.14,"body":"each shift, they had to resolve"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2590.08,"endTime":2593.14,"body":"every funny, so funny was"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2593.14,"endTime":2596.02,"body":"defined as any anomaly or"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2593.14,"endTime":2596.02,"body":"something that didn't that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2596.02,"endTime":2600.94,"body":"deviated from the expectation."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2596.02,"endTime":2600.94,"body":"And by doing that, right, I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2600.94,"endTime":2605.32,"body":"mean, they're chasing down every"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2600.94,"endTime":2605.32,"body":"week failure signal. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2606.01,"endTime":2608.77,"body":"understanding that either"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2606.01,"endTime":2608.77,"body":"modifying the procedures or"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2609.13,"endTime":2612.43,"body":"adding So knowledge versus what"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2609.13,"endTime":2612.43,"body":"happened, arguably, in both"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2612.43,"endTime":2615.61,"body":"cases of the spatial program,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2612.43,"endTime":2615.61,"body":"the Colombian challenger where"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2615.79,"endTime":2618.49,"body":"essentially a doctor Western"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2615.79,"endTime":2618.49,"body":"said that essentially the same"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2618.49,"endTime":2623.86,"body":"mistake that happened twice,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2618.49,"endTime":2623.86,"body":"there was something happens. It"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2624.67,"endTime":2626.83,"body":"they investigate and say it"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2624.67,"endTime":2626.83,"body":"happened before, so therefore,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2626.83,"endTime":2631.39,"body":"it must be okay. Which leads to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2626.83,"endTime":2631.39,"body":"you know, a theory disaster."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2631.6,"endTime":2634.78,"body":"Okay, that's the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2631.6,"endTime":2634.78,"body":"those are the sort of worst sins"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2634.81,"endTime":2637.36,"body":"are another ones where we've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2634.81,"endTime":2637.36,"body":"seen that before, don't worry"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2637.36,"endTime":2640.48,"body":"about it. I mean, that's why I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2637.36,"endTime":2640.48,"body":"take the whole, you know, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2640.48,"endTime":2644.89,"body":"end on cord, mythologies, not to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2640.48,"endTime":2644.89,"body":"sort of denigrate it, what it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2644.89,"endTime":2648.25,"body":"is, which was what Rathore said,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2644.89,"endTime":2648.25,"body":"which is, the first thing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2648.25,"endTime":2650.8,"body":"somebody would say to you, when"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2648.25,"endTime":2650.8,"body":"you pull the end on, first off,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2650.86,"endTime":2653.98,"body":"they wouldn't call you up and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2650.86,"endTime":2653.98,"body":"say, I'm acted, you go ahead,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2654.04,"endTime":2656.77,"body":"they wouldn't like be four"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2654.04,"endTime":2656.77,"body":"offices away, or four floors"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2656.77,"endTime":2660.49,"body":"away and say, why'd you poliana"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2656.77,"endTime":2660.49,"body":"cord, you know, it, like, they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2660.49,"endTime":2663.82,"body":"came, they went there, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2660.49,"endTime":2663.82,"body":"they went to the, and then the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2663.82,"endTime":2666.64,"body":"first thing they said was, thank"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2663.82,"endTime":2666.64,"body":"you, right, because you helped"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2666.64,"endTime":2671.38,"body":"us sort of better understand,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2666.64,"endTime":2671.38,"body":"you know, whatever it is that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2671.38,"endTime":2677.95,"body":"you thought was, you know, and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2671.38,"endTime":2677.95,"body":"think you know, in, in gene"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2677.95,"endTime":2680.35,"body":"Krantz, you know, the thing I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2677.95,"endTime":2680.35,"body":"love is really sort of the movie"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2680.35,"endTime":2684.55,"body":"version, which is it's in his"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2680.35,"endTime":2684.55,"body":"book, Vol. 13, where literally,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2684.55,"endTime":2688.66,"body":"they don't know what to do. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2684.55,"endTime":2688.66,"body":"so the the process at that point"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2688.66,"endTime":2692.11,"body":"is, you know, when Ed Harris"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2688.66,"endTime":2692.11,"body":"says, not on my dime, and then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2692.11,"endTime":2695.05,"body":"the next day, he's playing gene"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2692.11,"endTime":2695.05,"body":"Krantz. Right and, and like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2695.08,"endTime":2698.2,"body":"what did he do? They don't set"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2695.08,"endTime":2698.2,"body":"up a committee to figure out"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2698.2,"endTime":2701.41,"body":"like, what's the best place to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2698.2,"endTime":2701.41,"body":"buy tin foil, what's the best"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2701.41,"endTime":2705.64,"body":"place to buy your Oh, they had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2701.41,"endTime":2705.64,"body":"the prototype, the solution of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2705.64,"endTime":2709.78,"body":"those sort of what was like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2705.64,"endTime":2709.78,"body":"know, taking co2 out of the air"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2709.78,"endTime":2714.94,"body":"or whatever, right? And like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2709.78,"endTime":2714.94,"body":"this all broke off and deal with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2714.94,"endTime":2719.02,"body":"it in such a different way. He's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2714.94,"endTime":2719.02,"body":"our enterprises work, right?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2719.02,"endTime":2722.32,"body":"Where enterprises would be."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2719.02,"endTime":2722.32,"body":"Yeah, we need to solve this,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2722.32,"endTime":2725.83,"body":"like, massive problem. Okay,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2722.32,"endTime":2725.83,"body":"let's form a committee to figure"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2725.83,"endTime":2731.89,"body":"out, you know, what, let's ship,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2725.83,"endTime":2731.89,"body":"put an RFP out for 10 suppliers"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2731.89,"endTime":2735.7,"body":"for 10. For, you know, let's put"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2731.89,"endTime":2735.7,"body":"out like, do a study on whether"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2735.7,"endTime":2738.79,"body":"we should use coral or not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2735.7,"endTime":2738.79,"body":"right. Whereas in the gene"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2738.79,"endTime":2742.69,"body":"Krantz sort of model, which was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2738.79,"endTime":2742.69,"body":"put a bunch of smart people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2742.69,"endTime":2744.49,"body":"together, and like,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2745.24,"endTime":2748.15,"body":"we're not I love that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2745.24,"endTime":2748.15,"body":"scene in the movie, figure out"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2748.15,"endTime":2755.2,"body":"how to replace this using only"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2748.15,"endTime":2755.2,"body":"these parts. Yeah, I just just"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2755.2,"endTime":2761.35,"body":"came across Twitter. Literally."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2755.2,"endTime":2761.35,"body":"Two, three days ago, the Krantz"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2761.44,"endTime":2764.8,"body":"dictum that came out of after"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2761.44,"endTime":2764.8,"body":"the Apollo one tragedy, he wrote"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2764.8,"endTime":2768.88,"body":"this kind of famous memo said"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2764.8,"endTime":2768.88,"body":"spaceflight will never tolerate"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2768.88,"endTime":2773.17,"body":"carelessness, incapacity, or"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2768.88,"endTime":2773.17,"body":"neglect. somewhere, somehow we"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2773.17,"endTime":2775.99,"body":"screwed up. It could have been"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2773.17,"endTime":2775.99,"body":"in design, build or test,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2775.99,"endTime":2780.82,"body":"whatever, whatever it was, we"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2775.99,"endTime":2780.82,"body":"should have caught it goes on"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2780.82,"endTime":2783.4,"body":"for about five more paragraphs,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2780.82,"endTime":2783.4,"body":"but essentially, oh, it says"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2783.4,"endTime":2785.77,"body":"From this day, forward, Flight"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2783.4,"endTime":2785.77,"body":"Control will be known by two"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2785.77,"endTime":2789.07,"body":"words, tough and competent,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2785.77,"endTime":2789.07,"body":"tough means we are forever"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2789.07,"endTime":2792.58,"body":"accountable for what we do, or"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2789.07,"endTime":2792.58,"body":"what we fail to do, we will"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2792.58,"endTime":2796.39,"body":"never again compromise the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2792.58,"endTime":2796.39,"body":"responsibilities. Every time we"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2796.39,"endTime":2798.88,"body":"walk into Mission Control, we"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2796.39,"endTime":2798.88,"body":"will know what we stand for"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2799.18,"endTime":2801.73,"body":"competent means we will never"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2799.18,"endTime":2801.73,"body":"take anything for granted. We"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2801.73,"endTime":2804.73,"body":"will never be found short in our"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2801.73,"endTime":2804.73,"body":"knowledge and their skills."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2805.06,"endTime":2808.78,"body":"Mission Control will be perfect."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2805.06,"endTime":2808.78,"body":"Oh, geez. Chill. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2808.78,"endTime":2810.97,"body":"you know, it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2808.78,"endTime":2810.97,"body":"funny, because, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2810.97,"endTime":2813.07,"body":"there's a there's an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2810.97,"endTime":2813.07,"body":"interesting, and I'll come back"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2813.07,"endTime":2815.89,"body":"to a sort of a damning thing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2813.07,"endTime":2815.89,"body":"that, like, you know, a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2815.89,"endTime":2821.2,"body":"times people will say, well,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2815.89,"endTime":2821.2,"body":"Deming said this, and then, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2821.2,"endTime":2825.58,"body":"know, and and so I think in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2821.2,"endTime":2825.58,"body":"failure is not an option, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2825.58,"endTime":2828.22,"body":"Gene Kranz. Right? That's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2825.58,"endTime":2828.22,"body":"really, I think of it as a play"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2828.22,"endTime":2832.15,"body":"on words, right? Like, he's not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2828.22,"endTime":2832.15,"body":"saying that, like there is this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2832.15,"endTime":2837.76,"body":"deterministic button you can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2832.15,"endTime":2837.76,"body":"push that will guarantee that a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2837.76,"endTime":2841.45,"body":"failure will ever happen. What"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2837.76,"endTime":2841.45,"body":"he's saying is you need to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2841.48,"endTime":2847.18,"body":"understand failure. Yeah, be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2841.48,"endTime":2847.18,"body":"able to beat head on. Because"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2847.18,"endTime":2850.93,"body":"that's the it's not an option."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2847.18,"endTime":2850.93,"body":"Like, are you not going to my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2850.93,"endTime":2854.17,"body":"grace or true north? Right?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2850.93,"endTime":2854.17,"body":"Yeah, I'm gonna get there. And,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2854.17,"endTime":2859.24,"body":"you know, um, there's a thing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2854.17,"endTime":2859.24,"body":"that I found like, Deming was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2859.24,"endTime":2862.87,"body":"once asked about Japan, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2859.24,"endTime":2862.87,"body":"they, you know, he responded to,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2863.05,"endTime":2866.35,"body":"to, somebody was interviewed,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2863.05,"endTime":2866.35,"body":"and he said, there was only one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2866.35,"endTime":2870.34,"body":"man with profound knowledge in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2866.35,"endTime":2870.34,"body":"Japan. And so you know, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2870.34,"endTime":2873.28,"body":"system and found knowledge, but,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2870.34,"endTime":2873.28,"body":"and, you know, and if you look"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2873.28,"endTime":2877.36,"body":"at it, like, Wow, that's pretty"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2873.28,"endTime":2877.36,"body":"cocky man like you like, but but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2877.57,"endTime":2882.55,"body":"then he was very sort of he, he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2877.57,"endTime":2882.55,"body":"chose his words really, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2882.7,"endTime":2885.16,"body":"even to the point where like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2882.7,"endTime":2885.16,"body":"some people don't understand"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2885.16,"endTime":2887.89,"body":"them, but he's like, you either"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2885.16,"endTime":2887.89,"body":"understand me or don't I don't?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2888.25,"endTime":2891.25,"body":"Like I don't, you know, I don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2888.25,"endTime":2891.25,"body":"think he worried so much about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2891.25,"endTime":2895.42,"body":"the people. Like he didn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2891.25,"endTime":2895.42,"body":"suffer fools or, and and as I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2895.42,"endTime":2899.68,"body":"dug into it, what he was saying"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2895.42,"endTime":2899.68,"body":"was there was there's this way"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2899.68,"endTime":2903.94,"body":"you have to understand things."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2899.68,"endTime":2903.94,"body":"And it's he he called the system"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2903.94,"endTime":2907.15,"body":"profound knowledge. And what he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2903.94,"endTime":2907.15,"body":"was saying profound knowledge"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2907.15,"endTime":2910.15,"body":"was understanding system"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2907.15,"endTime":2910.15,"body":"thinking, understanding"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2910.15,"endTime":2914.41,"body":"psychology, understanding"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2910.15,"endTime":2914.41,"body":"variation, and understanding"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2914.41,"endTime":2918.49,"body":"knowledge, epistemology. And so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2914.41,"endTime":2918.49,"body":"I guess I'm making my point,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2918.49,"endTime":2922.15,"body":"like, if you sort of look at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2918.49,"endTime":2922.15,"body":"Dean crisis book in one way, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2922.15,"endTime":2925.12,"body":"could say failure is not an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2922.15,"endTime":2925.12,"body":"option, like good luck, bad. Or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2925.12,"endTime":2928.99,"body":"you could say, things are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2925.12,"endTime":2928.99,"body":"awesome, because like, we know"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2928.99,"endTime":2931.81,"body":"failure will happen. And we are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2928.99,"endTime":2931.81,"body":"going to basically do everything"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2931.81,"endTime":2935.95,"body":"we can. And when it when Deming"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2931.81,"endTime":2935.95,"body":"is saying there was only one man"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2935.95,"endTime":2939.7,"body":"with profound knowledge in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2935.95,"endTime":2939.7,"body":"Japan, he's not saying hey, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2939.7,"endTime":2942.76,"body":"was the only guy that could"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2939.7,"endTime":2942.76,"body":"figure this out. He was saying"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2942.79,"endTime":2947.53,"body":"more, like, sort of a verb, if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2942.79,"endTime":2947.53,"body":"you will, instead of a noun,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2947.53,"endTime":2954.01,"body":"right? Like, like, like, you had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2947.53,"endTime":2954.01,"body":"to understand. No sisters"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2954.01,"endTime":2957.73,"body":"thinking you had to understand,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2954.01,"endTime":2957.73,"body":"you know, theory of variation,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2957.73,"endTime":2961.0,"body":"which is just the price control."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2957.73,"endTime":2961.0,"body":"You had to understand this sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2961.0,"endTime":2965.26,"body":"of psychology. And then you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2961.0,"endTime":2965.26,"body":"know, you like, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2965.26,"endTime":2970.18,"body":"think that, you know, go back to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2965.26,"endTime":2970.18,"body":"Steven spears. You know, HBr and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2970.18,"endTime":2973.09,"body":"I guess that was his sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2970.18,"endTime":2973.09,"body":"thesis. One of my favorite"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2973.09,"endTime":2977.35,"body":"quotes from that is, huh, put it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2973.09,"endTime":2977.35,"body":"was a community of scientists"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2977.41,"endTime":2981.37,"body":"continue to experiment. I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2977.41,"endTime":2981.37,"body":"that's theory of knowledge,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2981.4,"endTime":2985.36,"body":"which is epistemology, which is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2981.4,"endTime":2985.36,"body":"PDSA I mean, that's it."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2987.37,"endTime":2991.78,"body":"Yeah, I love that. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2987.37,"endTime":2991.78,"body":"I think that's the I think this"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2991.84,"endTime":2996.82,"body":"that's a such a great example of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2991.84,"endTime":2996.82,"body":"even there's a there's a greater"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2996.82,"endTime":3002.01,"body":"whole that I'm hoping To"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":2996.82,"endTime":3002.01,"body":"simplify things, yeah, sorry,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3002.04,"endTime":3008.28,"body":"and show the provide a causal"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3002.04,"endTime":3008.28,"body":"theory, it just just to go back"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3008.28,"endTime":3010.92,"body":"to your knight capital, I'm"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3008.28,"endTime":3010.92,"body":"having trouble dropping that in"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3010.92,"endTime":3014.52,"body":"my head. So I without playing"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3010.92,"endTime":3014.52,"body":"the game of counterfactuals, I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3014.52,"endTime":3020.04,"body":"would just love to know, Are"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3014.52,"endTime":3020.04,"body":"there examples of profit proper?"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3020.04,"endTime":3025.47,"body":"So I'm just going to this Krantz"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3020.04,"endTime":3025.47,"body":"quote. Were there examples of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3025.5,"endTime":3030.72,"body":"issues that couldn't get"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3025.5,"endTime":3030.72,"body":"escalated to or resolved fast"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3030.72,"endTime":3035.4,"body":"enough, right, that are not"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3030.72,"endTime":3035.4,"body":"trying to play the would have"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3035.4,"endTime":3038.97,"body":"could have should have been, but"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3035.4,"endTime":3038.97,"body":"are essentially the socio"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3038.97,"endTime":3041.37,"body":"technical circuitry showing the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3038.97,"endTime":3041.37,"body":"way, you know, kind of showing"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3041.37,"endTime":3045.3,"body":"the weaknesses, right. I just"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3041.37,"endTime":3045.3,"body":"wouldn't be amazing to find"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3045.69,"endTime":3046.44,"body":"those stories."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3046.5,"endTime":3048.75,"body":"I totally, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3046.5,"endTime":3048.75,"body":"know, I mean, John also has a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3048.75,"endTime":3053.64,"body":"really good article, basically,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3048.75,"endTime":3053.64,"body":"calling, you know, bullcrap on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3053.64,"endTime":3058.53,"body":"the SEC, via, you know, their"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3053.64,"endTime":3058.53,"body":"their findings was all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3058.53,"endTime":3061.65,"body":"counterfactual, you know, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3058.53,"endTime":3061.65,"body":"counterfactuals, or mute, hidden"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3061.65,"endTime":3065.34,"body":"called Musical, what do you some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3061.65,"endTime":3065.34,"body":"sort of fun terms of it? I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3065.34,"endTime":3068.79,"body":"totally agree with him. And part"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3065.34,"endTime":3068.79,"body":"of his point was, like, it would"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3068.79,"endTime":3072.51,"body":"be better to know, instead of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3068.79,"endTime":3072.51,"body":"just saying they didn't have a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3072.51,"endTime":3076.8,"body":"procedure for x, it would have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3072.51,"endTime":3076.8,"body":"been really interesting. No,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3077.58,"endTime":3081.45,"body":"sort of what were the dynamics"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3077.58,"endTime":3081.45,"body":"of why, and to your point? I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3081.45,"endTime":3085.05,"body":"think they would do that. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3081.45,"endTime":3085.05,"body":"you know, that what I understand"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3085.05,"endTime":3088.08,"body":"is, it's been very tight lipped."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3085.05,"endTime":3088.08,"body":"Nobody, you know, very know, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3088.08,"endTime":3091.17,"body":"can't really find people that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3088.08,"endTime":3091.17,"body":"talk about it. And even if they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3091.17,"endTime":3094.26,"body":"do know, a little bit of it,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3091.17,"endTime":3094.26,"body":"like they're sort of under sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3094.26,"endTime":3097.71,"body":"of tight restrictions about what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3094.26,"endTime":3097.71,"body":"they can say. But yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3097.86,"endTime":3104.28,"body":"there's like that, to me is, um,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3097.86,"endTime":3104.28,"body":"it's such a concise, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3104.28,"endTime":3106.77,"body":"the bowing thing, like what I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3104.28,"endTime":3106.77,"body":"don't know, you know, like, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3106.77,"endTime":3110.07,"body":"just know, sort of, I know less"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3106.77,"endTime":3110.07,"body":"than you. And I just know what I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3110.07,"endTime":3112.98,"body":"sort of read it service level."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3110.07,"endTime":3112.98,"body":"But that's over years of sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3113.4,"endTime":3116.46,"body":"mistakes, that sort of, and even"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3113.4,"endTime":3116.46,"body":"the Challenger and those things."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3116.76,"endTime":3120.39,"body":"But think capital was literally"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3116.76,"endTime":3120.39,"body":"something that happened 30 days,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3121.32,"endTime":3126.27,"body":"literally, the SEC said, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3121.32,"endTime":3126.27,"body":"hey, in fact, the CEO was sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3126.27,"endTime":3130.44,"body":"of not really, he hadn't decided"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3126.27,"endTime":3130.44,"body":"whether he wanted to use this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3130.44,"endTime":3133.83,"body":"type of, you know, latency"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3130.44,"endTime":3133.83,"body":"arbitrage, or sort of high"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3133.83,"endTime":3138.39,"body":"frequency trading that lives in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3133.83,"endTime":3138.39,"body":"somebody else's sort of exchange"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3138.39,"endTime":3144.0,"body":"or service. And then literally,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3138.39,"endTime":3144.0,"body":"he flipped flopped. About the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3144.0,"endTime":3147.3,"body":"time the NYC said, Hey, we're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3144.0,"endTime":3147.3,"body":"gonna have one, everybody got 30"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3147.3,"endTime":3151.5,"body":"days to do it. So I mean, this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3147.3,"endTime":3151.5,"body":"is such a, like, this is like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3151.56,"endTime":3156.84,"body":"there's a great like, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3151.56,"endTime":3156.84,"body":"sort of what's called autopsy"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3156.84,"endTime":3161.1,"body":"that, like, could be done here,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3156.84,"endTime":3161.1,"body":"because you get to see the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3161.1,"endTime":3167.07,"body":"complexity of it sort of a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3161.1,"endTime":3167.07,"body":"critical system. Yeah, in a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3167.07,"endTime":3169.59,"body":"window that really happened in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3167.07,"endTime":3169.59,"body":"30 days."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3170.94,"endTime":3176.91,"body":"Here's why I think"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3170.94,"endTime":3176.91,"body":"it's so promising. So I was"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3176.91,"endTime":3180.81,"body":"talking to our good mutual"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3176.91,"endTime":3180.81,"body":"friend, Jeffrey Frederick, and"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3180.9,"endTime":3186.21,"body":"who you interviewed as well. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3180.9,"endTime":3186.21,"body":"I was, I was describing the MIT"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3186.21,"endTime":3189.15,"body":"beer game to him, I asked him,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3186.21,"endTime":3189.15,"body":"What do you think about the MIT"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3189.15,"endTime":3193.35,"body":"beer game goes? And, to my"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3189.15,"endTime":3193.35,"body":"surprise, I mean, he's so I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3193.35,"endTime":3195.72,"body":"mean, he's so much more well"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3193.35,"endTime":3195.72,"body":"read than me. And yet he hadn't"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3195.72,"endTime":3198.42,"body":"heard of it. And so I couldn't"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3195.72,"endTime":3198.42,"body":"describe, you know, what it was"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3198.9,"endTime":3202.35,"body":"no simulation for players,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3198.9,"endTime":3202.35,"body":"retailer, distributor,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3202.35,"endTime":3206.97,"body":"wholesaler and factory feedback"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3202.35,"endTime":3206.97,"body":"cycle of, you know, four turns."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3207.66,"endTime":3211.62,"body":"And he immediately said, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3207.66,"endTime":3211.62,"body":"that will never work. Right,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3211.65,"endTime":3214.32,"body":"you're gonna get some sort of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3211.65,"endTime":3214.32,"body":"bullwhip effect. That was like,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3214.32,"endTime":3218.16,"body":"how, how in the world? Did you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3214.32,"endTime":3218.16,"body":"surmise that? And he said, I was"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3218.16,"endTime":3222.06,"body":"obvious. One way communication?"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3218.16,"endTime":3222.06,"body":"And what, and the only time you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3222.06,"endTime":3224.79,"body":"get reciprocal feedback is for"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3222.06,"endTime":3224.79,"body":"translator, is it doomed to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3224.79,"endTime":3229.26,"body":"fail? So I feel like what he"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3224.79,"endTime":3229.26,"body":"demonstrated was that what"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3229.26,"endTime":3233.25,"body":"sociotechnical maestro's are"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3229.26,"endTime":3233.25,"body":"able to do is see the structure"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3233.97,"endTime":3238.98,"body":"and characters in their head"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3233.97,"endTime":3238.98,"body":"simulate, right? Is this a one"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3238.98,"endTime":3240.84,"body":"that's going to be very"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3238.98,"endTime":3240.84,"body":"responsive? Or is this one that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3240.84,"endTime":3246.9,"body":"is hopeless? And I would claim"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3240.84,"endTime":3246.9,"body":"that by looking at other"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3248.16,"endTime":3253.11,"body":"incidents, right, you know, with"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3248.16,"endTime":3253.11,"body":"in a way that doesn't rely on"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3253.11,"endTime":3256.23,"body":"counterfactuals one can make a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3253.11,"endTime":3256.23,"body":"pretty good prediction of you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3256.23,"endTime":3259.62,"body":"know, what, truly what the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3256.23,"endTime":3259.62,"body":"outcomes of a truly bad incident"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3259.62,"endTime":3260.01,"body":"would be."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3260.58,"endTime":3262.53,"body":"Yeah, I don't think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3260.58,"endTime":3262.53,"body":"you can I think you could sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3262.53,"endTime":3266.49,"body":"of understand the pathology of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3262.53,"endTime":3266.49,"body":"an incident in a way without"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3266.49,"endTime":3269.43,"body":"like, just do it as a thought"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3266.49,"endTime":3269.43,"body":"exercise right? I think you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3269.43,"endTime":3273.54,"body":"know, a definitely think you can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3269.43,"endTime":3273.54,"body":"do that. Well, I mean, it's so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3273.54,"endTime":3278.07,"body":"the you know, the I think the I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3273.54,"endTime":3278.07,"body":"just I wanted to explain in my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3278.07,"endTime":3282.27,"body":"damning book the Diablo game,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3278.07,"endTime":3282.27,"body":"right, which is you're sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3282.36,"endTime":3285.57,"body":"similar but like there's,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3282.36,"endTime":3285.57,"body":"there's a more I found a better"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3285.57,"endTime":3288.24,"body":"version of the one guy doing the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3285.57,"endTime":3288.24,"body":"envelope you know, the envelope"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3288.24,"endTime":3291.84,"body":"game is you can either use a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3288.24,"endTime":3291.84,"body":"single piece flow or you can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3291.84,"endTime":3295.95,"body":"sort of a mass production right"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3291.84,"endTime":3295.95,"body":"and the single piece flow is is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3295.95,"endTime":3299.34,"body":"going to be in like, it doesn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3295.95,"endTime":3299.34,"body":"seem like the original guy did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3299.34,"endTime":3302.61,"body":"it like sit did a follow on he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3299.34,"endTime":3302.61,"body":"said like, he didn't say you got"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3302.61,"endTime":3306.24,"body":"death threats. But he like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3302.61,"endTime":3306.24,"body":"people were really upset by by"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3306.24,"endTime":3309.96,"body":"the outcome of single piece flow"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3306.24,"endTime":3309.96,"body":"not making sense of why it was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3309.96,"endTime":3313.74,"body":"so much more efficient. There's,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3309.96,"endTime":3313.74,"body":"there's a better version of it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3313.74,"endTime":3318.36,"body":"where they take two teams at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3313.74,"endTime":3318.36,"body":"three. And then somebody tells"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3318.36,"endTime":3323.28,"body":"them, hey, they tell team like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3318.36,"endTime":3323.28,"body":"to, I want you to create 10"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3323.28,"endTime":3326.55,"body":"envelopes. And they've got to do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3323.28,"endTime":3326.55,"body":"it in a mass production way like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3326.55,"endTime":3329.67,"body":"so the first guy has to fold 10"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3326.55,"endTime":3329.67,"body":"envelopes, then passes it on to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3329.67,"endTime":3332.28,"body":"the second person who stuffs"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3329.67,"endTime":3332.28,"body":"them in the envelope. And then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3332.28,"endTime":3336.27,"body":"the third person seals it. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3332.28,"endTime":3336.27,"body":"the timing is when they get to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3336.27,"endTime":3340.8,"body":"10. The other group is that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3336.27,"endTime":3340.8,"body":"single piece flow. And the end"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3340.8,"endTime":3344.76,"body":"result is the sooner we sold"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3340.8,"endTime":3344.76,"body":"those, like twice as many as the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3344.76,"endTime":3348.93,"body":"other team, by the time they get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3344.76,"endTime":3348.93,"body":"to 10. But what happens are all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3348.93,"endTime":3353.31,"body":"these other things, which are he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3348.93,"endTime":3353.31,"body":"throws in some sort of sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3353.34,"endTime":3356.16,"body":"some turns and twists and turns"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3353.34,"endTime":3356.16,"body":"where he says, okay, oh, by the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3356.16,"endTime":3360.66,"body":"way, the paper we're using is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3356.16,"endTime":3360.66,"body":"not you know, we got to switch"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3360.66,"endTime":3365.61,"body":"paper, and the bat, the Batch"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3360.66,"endTime":3365.61,"body":"Group, like have to start all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3365.61,"endTime":3368.55,"body":"over? That's right. Yeah. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3365.61,"endTime":3368.55,"body":"and, you know, when you see"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3368.55,"endTime":3372.9,"body":"those, and you start, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3368.55,"endTime":3372.9,"body":"you start understanding, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3372.9,"endTime":3377.73,"body":"know, the how this flow sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3372.9,"endTime":3377.73,"body":"works. So there's beer games,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3377.73,"endTime":3381.24,"body":"the envelope games, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3377.73,"endTime":3381.24,"body":"those are. So I know what I was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3381.24,"endTime":3384.51,"body":"trying to get to, which is, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3381.24,"endTime":3384.51,"body":"think one of the things you've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3384.51,"endTime":3388.14,"body":"done really well is trying to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3384.51,"endTime":3388.14,"body":"create sort of lighthouse for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3388.14,"endTime":3391.35,"body":"us, right? In that like the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3388.14,"endTime":3391.35,"body":"DevOps enterprise Summit,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3391.62,"endTime":3395.55,"body":"obviously, Phoenix Project was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3391.62,"endTime":3395.55,"body":"was, was something that allowed"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3395.55,"endTime":3400.65,"body":"us all to sort of circle around"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3395.55,"endTime":3400.65,"body":"to see enterprise DevOps to that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3400.65,"endTime":3404.67,"body":"lens, your current project,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3400.65,"endTime":3404.67,"body":"certainly, I think, at the end"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3404.67,"endTime":3407.4,"body":"of the day, you have to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3404.67,"endTime":3407.4,"body":"simplify, you know, I mean, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3407.4,"endTime":3411.24,"body":"to your first principle, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3407.4,"endTime":3411.24,"body":"we have to think maybe that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3411.24,"endTime":3414.24,"body":"what Deming was great at, to a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3411.24,"endTime":3414.24,"body":"certain extent, which was he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3414.24,"endTime":3418.56,"body":"simplified shoe? Which ideas?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3414.24,"endTime":3418.56,"body":"You know, like, like, why does"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3418.56,"endTime":3421.74,"body":"he get credit? Well, like, he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3418.56,"endTime":3421.74,"body":"kind of explained it in a way."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3422.88,"endTime":3426.09,"body":"Yeah, did that guy who wrote"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3422.88,"endTime":3426.09,"body":"that book with all that math, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3426.09,"endTime":3430.5,"body":"didn't get it, you know. And I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3426.09,"endTime":3430.5,"body":"think it is the simplification"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3431.07,"endTime":3434.01,"body":"of any interview, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3431.07,"endTime":3434.01,"body":"can't think of two better people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3434.01,"endTime":3438.39,"body":"sort of equipped to sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3434.01,"endTime":3438.39,"body":"drive this, if you and Dr. Spear"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3438.87,"endTime":3444.66,"body":"can sort of create us, like, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3438.87,"endTime":3444.66,"body":"patterns in a more simplified"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3444.66,"endTime":3446.94,"body":"way, you know, one of the things"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3444.66,"endTime":3446.94,"body":"I love that you've done in your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3446.94,"endTime":3451.71,"body":"books, too, is you, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3446.94,"endTime":3451.71,"body":"like, I didn't get it till I saw"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3451.71,"endTime":3455.76,"body":"the unicorn project, where you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3451.71,"endTime":3455.76,"body":"had your sort of your that, what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3455.76,"endTime":3457.8,"body":"do you call it? Not the ways,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3455.76,"endTime":3457.8,"body":"but you had the, you know, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3457.8,"endTime":3460.62,"body":"prints or the five ideals? Yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3457.8,"endTime":3460.62,"body":"that's right. And then you did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3460.62,"endTime":3463.35,"body":"the same thing. And if Yeah, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3460.62,"endTime":3463.35,"body":"that's a brilliant sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3463.35,"endTime":3467.76,"body":"thing. Like, I can tell you a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3463.35,"endTime":3467.76,"body":"story. Or I can tell you a story"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3467.76,"endTime":3470.88,"body":"with like, here's what you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3467.76,"endTime":3470.88,"body":"should have gotten out of it."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3470.88,"endTime":3475.29,"body":"And, and so I think if you guys"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3470.88,"endTime":3475.29,"body":"could do that, I guess the other"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3475.29,"endTime":3479.82,"body":"thing I know, I'm rambling and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3475.29,"endTime":3479.82,"body":"all like sort of, but I'm just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3479.82,"endTime":3483.42,"body":"like Amazon, you know, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3479.82,"endTime":3483.42,"body":"you guys I know us, you're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3483.42,"endTime":3485.85,"body":"probably going to cover a lot"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3483.42,"endTime":3485.85,"body":"about Walmart, just based on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3485.85,"endTime":3490.5,"body":"what I've seen, from I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3485.85,"endTime":3490.5,"body":"your Amazon's gotta be the new"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3490.5,"endTime":3496.41,"body":"Toyota. Like, there'll be a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3490.5,"endTime":3496.41,"body":"point of which, you know, all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3496.41,"endTime":3500.52,"body":"the sort of discussions that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3496.41,"endTime":3500.52,"body":"we've had over the last 20 3040"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3500.52,"endTime":3504.15,"body":"years related to sort of agile,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3500.52,"endTime":3504.15,"body":"Lean software development"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3504.15,"endTime":3510.27,"body":"DevOps, like, like, we like the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3504.15,"endTime":3510.27,"body":"sort of route is Toyota Toyota"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3510.27,"endTime":3513.87,"body":"purchase system. So most of it,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3510.27,"endTime":3513.87,"body":"I gotta believe there'll be a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3513.87,"endTime":3519.15,"body":"point in time in the future,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3513.87,"endTime":3519.15,"body":"where Amazon will be that you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3519.15,"endTime":3522.12,"body":"know, so like, you almost like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3519.15,"endTime":3522.12,"body":"we don't talk much about what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3522.12,"endTime":3526.92,"body":"Ford did. Although, like him,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3522.12,"endTime":3526.92,"body":"taking, you know, division"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3526.92,"endTime":3530.07,"body":"labor, and like, the things he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3526.92,"endTime":3530.07,"body":"did were like, like, oh, no,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3530.07,"endTime":3532.41,"body":"could have never done what he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3530.07,"endTime":3532.41,"body":"did without him. But we talked"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3532.41,"endTime":3535.2,"body":"about Toyota way more than we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3532.41,"endTime":3535.2,"body":"talked about Ford. And I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3535.2,"endTime":3537.99,"body":"wondering if there's a time in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3535.2,"endTime":3537.99,"body":"the future, and it will be not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3537.99,"endTime":3540.27,"body":"wonder I know, for a fact that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3537.99,"endTime":3540.27,"body":"we time a future where Amazon"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3540.27,"endTime":3543.09,"body":"will be the Toyota? Yeah, it's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3543.089,"endTime":3545.009,"body":"funny, you mentioned"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3543.089,"endTime":3545.009,"body":"that. So this is actually an"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3545.009,"endTime":3548.609,"body":"area of deep study for us right"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3545.009,"endTime":3548.609,"body":"now. And this has actually been"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3548.609,"endTime":3551.309,"body":"a theme of recurrent"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3548.609,"endTime":3551.309,"body":"conversation with Dr. McPherson."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3551.969,"endTime":3555.179,"body":"And, you know, because, okay,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3551.969,"endTime":3555.179,"body":"why is this such a helpful for"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3555.179,"endTime":3560.099,"body":"me to try to prove to myself"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3555.179,"endTime":3560.099,"body":"that this is important? Yeah. So"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3560.759,"endTime":3564.149,"body":"what we're saying is that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3560.759,"endTime":3564.149,"body":"structure is one of the top is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3564.149,"endTime":3567.239,"body":"one of the few leading"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3564.149,"endTime":3567.239,"body":"indicators performance that we"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3567.239,"endTime":3570.359,"body":"have. So just like Geoffrey"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3567.239,"endTime":3570.359,"body":"Frederick was able to assimilate"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3570.359,"endTime":3573.359,"body":"in his head, right, right. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3570.359,"endTime":3573.359,"body":"this is gonna work or not, and"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3573.869,"endTime":3578.759,"body":"you know, OKRs right. And BeOS"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3573.869,"endTime":3578.759,"body":"right. Now, essentially, those"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3578.759,"endTime":3582.059,"body":"are trailing business measures,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3578.759,"endTime":3582.059,"body":"right to the trailing"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3582.059,"endTime":3586.979,"body":"indicators. So, if we if"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3582.059,"endTime":3586.979,"body":"structure is the, you know, one"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3586.979,"endTime":3588.959,"body":"of the most important tools and"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3586.979,"endTime":3588.959,"body":"particular the performance that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3588.959,"endTime":3592.559,"body":"we have, then it says that the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3588.959,"endTime":3592.559,"body":"job of the leader, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3594.989,"endTime":3598.199,"body":"where destruction comes from the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3594.989,"endTime":3598.199,"body":"leader is responsible for"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3598.199,"endTime":3602.129,"body":"creating that and so it becomes"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3598.199,"endTime":3602.129,"body":"One of the most important things"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3602.129,"endTime":3604.769,"body":"is like what is the quality or"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3602.129,"endTime":3604.769,"body":"the skills that leader to be"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3604.769,"endTime":3607.979,"body":"able to create good structure."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3604.769,"endTime":3607.979,"body":"And to your point, one of the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3607.979,"endTime":3612.839,"body":"best examples of that is Amazon."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3607.979,"endTime":3612.839,"body":"And so the whole notion of two"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3612.839,"endTime":3616.679,"body":"pizza teams, single threaded"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3612.839,"endTime":3616.679,"body":"owners, right, I think those are"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3617.849,"endTime":3621.959,"body":"important, right? And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3617.849,"endTime":3621.959,"body":"to some degree, very new, and"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3622.079,"endTime":3625.199,"body":"we're trying to better"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3622.079,"endTime":3625.199,"body":"understand to what, in fact, I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3625.199,"endTime":3628.559,"body":"mean, one interpretation of the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3625.199,"endTime":3628.559,"body":"book working backwards is in the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3628.559,"endTime":3630.809,"body":"idea, we would always have a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3628.559,"endTime":3630.809,"body":"single threaded owner who owns"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3630.809,"endTime":3634.049,"body":"all of the different functional"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3630.809,"endTime":3634.049,"body":"specialties in order to, you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3634.049,"endTime":3638.039,"body":"know, create value, but you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3634.049,"endTime":3638.039,"body":"know, that a certain point, you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3638.039,"endTime":3639.869,"body":"run out of those, and then you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3638.039,"endTime":3639.869,"body":"have to have, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3639.869,"endTime":3643.439,"body":"three in the box, right, where"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3639.869,"endTime":3643.439,"body":"you have, you know, product, Dev"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3643.439,"endTime":3647.549,"body":"and Ops, you know, all living"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3643.439,"endTime":3647.549,"body":"together, right. And so maybe"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3647.549,"endTime":3652.829,"body":"one interpretation of that is,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3647.549,"endTime":3652.829,"body":"if you don't if you can't find"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3652.829,"endTime":3656.909,"body":"these sociotechnical maestro's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3652.829,"endTime":3656.909,"body":"who can be singly responsible"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3656.909,"endTime":3661.259,"body":"for, you know, all aspects of"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3656.909,"endTime":3661.259,"body":"creating a product, then you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3661.259,"endTime":3665.309,"body":"have to split it between"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3661.259,"endTime":3665.309,"body":"different people. So, yes,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3665.369,"endTime":3669.089,"body":"still, I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3665.369,"endTime":3669.089,"body":"important aspect. That's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3669.209,"endTime":3669.749,"body":"definitely real"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3670.98,"endTime":3673.11,"body":"tone spear I you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3670.98,"endTime":3673.11,"body":"know, but so one of the things"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3673.11,"endTime":3675.69,"body":"I've been threading on heavily,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3673.11,"endTime":3675.69,"body":"like one of the things I've been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3675.69,"endTime":3679.77,"body":"trying to figure out what was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3675.69,"endTime":3679.77,"body":"Demings influenced Amazon in my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3679.77,"endTime":3682.83,"body":"linchpin is Jeff Wilkie. So I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3679.77,"endTime":3682.83,"body":"don't know, if you've looked"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3682.83,"endTime":3685.44,"body":"into Jeff Wilkie. He was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3682.83,"endTime":3685.44,"body":"basically considered the number"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3685.44,"endTime":3692.19,"body":"two manager at Amazon. He was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3685.44,"endTime":3692.19,"body":"brought in in 1999. And, and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3692.19,"endTime":3695.97,"body":"don't know, to the extent of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3692.19,"endTime":3695.97,"body":"what basis familiarity was with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3695.97,"endTime":3700.56,"body":"lean and Lean principles. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3695.97,"endTime":3700.56,"body":"suspect some maybe a lot. You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3700.56,"endTime":3703.38,"body":"know, I know at some point, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3700.56,"endTime":3703.38,"body":"goal was one of his, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3703.38,"endTime":3708.3,"body":"favorite books. But Wilkie came"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3703.38,"endTime":3708.3,"body":"in from MIT, the RSC stuff,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3708.3,"endTime":3711.96,"body":"Operations Management,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3708.3,"endTime":3711.96,"body":"statistical process control,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3712.2,"endTime":3716.67,"body":"Theory of Constraints. I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3712.2,"endTime":3716.67,"body":"he came in and landed hard. And,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3716.67,"endTime":3720.24,"body":"you know, and his first tackle"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3716.67,"endTime":3720.24,"body":"was the, you know, sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3720.24,"endTime":3723.6,"body":"rethinking distribution centers"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3720.24,"endTime":3723.6,"body":"to fulfillment centers. And I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3723.6,"endTime":3728.07,"body":"would make the argument that a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3723.6,"endTime":3728.07,"body":"lot of Amazon success, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3728.07,"endTime":3731.1,"body":"being the sort of Deming on the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3728.07,"endTime":3731.1,"body":"brain all the time, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3731.1,"endTime":3735.3,"body":"sort of came was sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3731.1,"endTime":3735.3,"body":"institutionalized by their"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3735.33,"endTime":3740.28,"body":"adherence to understanding lean"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3735.33,"endTime":3740.28,"body":"through an evolutionary scale"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3740.28,"endTime":3747.36,"body":"model unprecedented. And like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3740.28,"endTime":3747.36,"body":"that, just becoming. And, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3747.36,"endTime":3750.69,"body":"know, I'd like to think that,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3747.36,"endTime":3750.69,"body":"like, there was, I can't find"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3750.69,"endTime":3754.8,"body":"any direct, like, sort of like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3750.69,"endTime":3754.8,"body":"Wilkie or anybody or basil sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3754.8,"endTime":3758.79,"body":"of quoting damning, but I'd like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3754.8,"endTime":3758.79,"body":"to think they were aware of sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3758.79,"endTime":3761.58,"body":"of Demings ideas, and, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3758.79,"endTime":3761.58,"body":"certainly statistical process"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3761.58,"endTime":3765.0,"body":"control and operations research."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3761.58,"endTime":3765.0,"body":"Anyway. So I, I think that that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3765.0,"endTime":3769.89,"body":"Wilkie has an interesting story"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3765.0,"endTime":3769.89,"body":"there, which is basically sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3769.89,"endTime":3775.5,"body":"of, if it is and I believe it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3769.89,"endTime":3775.5,"body":"is, then it confirms that you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3775.5,"endTime":3778.5,"body":"know, that you get you sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3775.5,"endTime":3778.5,"body":"get that you only get that kind"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3778.5,"endTime":3781.35,"body":"of scale with this kind of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3778.5,"endTime":3781.35,"body":"thinking, which serve it all the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3781.35,"endTime":3784.59,"body":"way back. Just time is not dead,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3781.35,"endTime":3784.59,"body":"folks."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3786.39,"endTime":3789.87,"body":"And I would say, I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3786.39,"endTime":3789.87,"body":"don't think you can pull off"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3789.87,"endTime":3793.59,"body":"what Amazon achieved without"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3789.87,"endTime":3793.59,"body":"these sociotechnical maestro's."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3793.62,"endTime":3795.36,"body":"I mean, I remember reading the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3793.62,"endTime":3795.36,"body":"book called The Everything"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3795.36,"endTime":3798.18,"body":"Store, describing kind of what"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3795.36,"endTime":3798.18,"body":"was required to actually run"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3798.18,"endTime":3801.27,"body":"these fulfillment centers in the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3798.18,"endTime":3801.27,"body":"holidays in the early 2000s. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3801.54,"endTime":3806.79,"body":"how they would do things like"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3801.54,"endTime":3806.79,"body":"for these very, these runaway"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3807.15,"endTime":3812.22,"body":"hit toys, you know, they had to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3807.15,"endTime":3812.22,"body":"find, they couldn't, they had no"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3812.22,"endTime":3815.43,"body":"tolerance for not being able to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3812.22,"endTime":3815.43,"body":"find these inventory items right"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3815.49,"endTime":3817.83,"body":"into, you know, when they're"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3815.49,"endTime":3817.83,"body":"convinced that they didn't have"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3817.83,"endTime":3819.78,"body":"any in the film center, they"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3817.83,"endTime":3819.78,"body":"would go out and buy them in the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3819.78,"endTime":3824.31,"body":"retailer, right? It was just"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3819.78,"endTime":3824.31,"body":"this incredible, orchestrated"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3824.31,"endTime":3826.98,"body":"effort to achieve a goal with"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3824.31,"endTime":3826.98,"body":"you know, incredible attention"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3826.98,"endTime":3832.56,"body":"to detail, you know, grand"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3826.98,"endTime":3832.56,"body":"understanding the system. And I"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3832.56,"endTime":3833.94,"body":"don't think they tolerated"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3832.56,"endTime":3833.94,"body":"fools."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3834.36,"endTime":3836.67,"body":"Yeah, no, no, no,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3834.36,"endTime":3836.67,"body":"no, no, you know, things are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3836.67,"endTime":3839.19,"body":"working backwards. I did an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3836.67,"endTime":3839.19,"body":"interview with Doris queen who"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3839.19,"endTime":3843.27,"body":"spent the last two years with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3839.19,"endTime":3843.27,"body":"Dr. Deming. Yeah, and one of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3843.27,"endTime":3845.61,"body":"things she said which is every"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3843.27,"endTime":3845.61,"body":"time she'd show up meet him in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3845.61,"endTime":3849.36,"body":"the airport. She the first thing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3845.61,"endTime":3849.36,"body":"they'd say on the plane is to me"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3849.36,"endTime":3851.85,"body":"and say, Okay, what questions do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3849.36,"endTime":3851.85,"body":"you have for me, Doris, and if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3851.85,"endTime":3855.69,"body":"she didn't have anything like he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3851.85,"endTime":3855.69,"body":"he'd be mad. Right and and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3855.69,"endTime":3858.24,"body":"working backwards. Stay with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3855.69,"endTime":3858.24,"body":"describe that's exactly how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3858.24,"endTime":3862.08,"body":"basil sauce was like, if you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3858.24,"endTime":3862.08,"body":"flew it, basil, you better come"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3862.08,"endTime":3865.02,"body":"gun with a bunch of sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3862.08,"endTime":3865.02,"body":"ideas and questions."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3865.2,"endTime":3867.87,"body":"And by the way, in the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3865.2,"endTime":3867.87,"body":"book, The Everything Store"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3868.47,"endTime":3872.94,"body":"Wilkie his name is mentioned 25"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3868.47,"endTime":3872.94,"body":"times yeah. Oh, yeah."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3873.27,"endTime":3875.58,"body":"They don't mention"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3873.27,"endTime":3875.58,"body":"that much and working backwards."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3875.91,"endTime":3878.58,"body":"But yeah, I mean, if you you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3875.91,"endTime":3878.58,"body":"know, I've done the research and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3878.58,"endTime":3882.36,"body":"like there's there's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3878.58,"endTime":3882.36,"body":"unquestioned he was considered"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3882.36,"endTime":3886.38,"body":"the number two guy for a long"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3882.36,"endTime":3886.38,"body":"period of time. I mean, he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3886.38,"endTime":3889.77,"body":"deeply involved in like, if you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3886.38,"endTime":3889.77,"body":"could make the argument Amazon"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3889.77,"endTime":3894.51,"body":"Prime probably couldn't happen"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3889.77,"endTime":3894.51,"body":"okay. Without his without the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3894.54,"endTime":3898.08,"body":"infrastructure that was evolved"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3894.54,"endTime":3898.08,"body":"there. You'll get he came in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3898.08,"endTime":3901.89,"body":"from a world they didn't know"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3898.08,"endTime":3901.89,"body":"like he had supply chain, he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3901.89,"endTime":3904.83,"body":"knew operations research."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3901.89,"endTime":3904.83,"body":"Anyway. So"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3905.519,"endTime":3907.019,"body":"I think that's an"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3905.519,"endTime":3907.019,"body":"important point. This is"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3907.019,"endTime":3911.699,"body":"actually for my benefit. socio"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3907.019,"endTime":3911.699,"body":"technical Maestro can be a"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3911.699,"endTime":3915.629,"body":"maestro, even though they may"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3911.699,"endTime":3915.629,"body":"not be the best expert on that"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3915.629,"endTime":3921.599,"body":"domain. So yeah, so Admiral"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3915.629,"endTime":3921.599,"body":"Hyman Rickover was not the best"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3921.629,"endTime":3925.619,"body":"expert in nuclear reactors."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3921.629,"endTime":3925.619,"body":"However, he was able to be the"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3925.619,"endTime":3928.289,"body":"maestro for the socio technical"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3925.619,"endTime":3928.289,"body":"system."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3928.53,"endTime":3933.12,"body":"Well, that's the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3928.53,"endTime":3933.12,"body":"other guy the right, they might"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3933.12,"endTime":3937.68,"body":"get so turned on, right like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3933.12,"endTime":3937.68,"body":"this a great example of he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3937.68,"endTime":3940.5,"body":"didn't like the only way he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3937.68,"endTime":3940.5,"body":"going to pass an inspection. He"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3940.5,"endTime":3943.5,"body":"was not going to understand that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3940.5,"endTime":3943.5,"body":"new sub, he was going to have to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3943.5,"endTime":3946.38,"body":"sort of do an intent model. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3943.5,"endTime":3946.38,"body":"yes, right."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3947.4,"endTime":3948.15,"body":"That's great. That's"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3947.4,"endTime":3948.15,"body":"great."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3948.42,"endTime":3950.19,"body":"No, it's good"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3948.42,"endTime":3950.19,"body":"stuff. Jean, you know, like, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3950.19,"endTime":3953.1,"body":"could do this for hours and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3950.19,"endTime":3953.1,"body":"hours. Of course, we can't, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3953.1,"endTime":3955.89,"body":"that's what it is. But I really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3953.1,"endTime":3955.89,"body":"appreciate you spend some time"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3955.89,"endTime":3959.43,"body":"with me on this. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3955.89,"endTime":3959.43,"body":"so hopefully get back to live"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3960.27,"endTime":3963.42,"body":"stuff so we can hang out. And I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3960.27,"endTime":3963.42,"body":"saw an old picture of me and you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3963.42,"endTime":3967.5,"body":"walking in the street at one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3963.42,"endTime":3967.5,"body":"time in Portland. Some guy came"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3967.5,"endTime":3973.17,"body":"up to us with a copy of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3967.5,"endTime":3973.17,"body":"Phoenix Project. And he was so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3973.17,"endTime":3976.23,"body":"weird. It was so it was it? Was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3973.17,"endTime":3976.23,"body":"it early, early days. Oh, yeah."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3976.23,"endTime":3979.89,"body":"And we took a picture of the two"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3976.23,"endTime":3979.89,"body":"of us. And you sign in a book."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3979.89,"endTime":3983.94,"body":"Yeah. It's like this is like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3979.89,"endTime":3983.94,"body":"really early days. I just saw"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3983.94,"endTime":3986.22,"body":"that on, like, something popped"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3983.94,"endTime":3986.22,"body":"up. So that was kind of cool."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3987.93,"endTime":3988.95,"body":"All right, my friend."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3989.069,"endTime":3991.469,"body":"Well, this has been"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3989.069,"endTime":3991.469,"body":"great. And by the way, thank you"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3991.469,"endTime":3995.669,"body":"for the incredibly thought"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3991.469,"endTime":3995.669,"body":"provoking conversation. And I'm"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3995.669,"endTime":3998.999,"body":"hoping you and I will have more"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3995.669,"endTime":3998.999,"body":"discussions with Nick capital."},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":3998.999,"endTime":3999.299,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3999.509,"endTime":4003.169,"body":"Yeah, again, if you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3999.509,"endTime":4003.169,"body":"guys want to sort of, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4003.169,"endTime":4005.539,"body":"a fourth, I guess, a fourth"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4003.169,"endTime":4005.539,"body":"wheel on any of those"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4005.539,"endTime":4009.769,"body":"discussions to do right. You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4005.539,"endTime":4009.769,"body":"know, I, you know, like I said,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4009.769,"endTime":4013.069,"body":"I think the WorkKeys stuff is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4009.769,"endTime":4013.069,"body":"can be explored. I think the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4013.069,"endTime":4017.029,"body":"night capital could be an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4013.069,"endTime":4017.029,"body":"interesting, you know, sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4017.209,"endTime":4021.859,"body":"way to understand that compact"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4017.209,"endTime":4021.859,"body":"view of how everything go wrong"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4021.859,"endTime":4024.199,"body":"in such a short period. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4021.859,"endTime":4024.199,"body":"anyway,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":4024.62,"endTime":4027.41,"body":"all right. Amen. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":4024.62,"endTime":4027.41,"body":"in fact, looking forward to"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":4027.41,"endTime":4032.09,"body":"seeing you soon in person. And"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":4027.41,"endTime":4032.09,"body":"so there'll be a big, high five"},{"speaker":"Gene Kim","startTime":4032.09,"endTime":4032.72,"body":"and hug, buddy."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4032.75,"endTime":4035.69,"body":"No kidding. All"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4032.75,"endTime":4035.69,"body":"right, buddy. Take care. Thank"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4035.69,"endTime":4035.93,"body":"you."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":4036.11,"endTime":4036.44,"body":"Bye bye."}]}