{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":8.189,"endTime":10.649,"body":"Hey, it's John"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":8.189,"endTime":10.649,"body":"Willis again, and we got a great"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":10.649,"endTime":14.939,"body":"podcast here. This is John"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":10.649,"endTime":14.939,"body":"Hunter a long time. I mean, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":14.939,"endTime":17.189,"body":"think his whole life has been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":14.939,"endTime":17.189,"body":"Deming fan, you get to hear"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":17.189,"endTime":21.509,"body":"that. He's John Hunter is John"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":17.189,"endTime":21.509,"body":"Hunter calm and then also"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":21.509,"endTime":25.439,"body":"curious cat. So he was one of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":21.509,"endTime":25.439,"body":"the first websites that I found"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":25.439,"endTime":27.569,"body":"when I started getting"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":25.439,"endTime":27.569,"body":"interested in their academic."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":28.139,"endTime":30.689,"body":"Just to give you a heads up,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":28.139,"endTime":30.689,"body":"it's it, we weren't really long,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":30.689,"endTime":33.929,"body":"we could have just gone on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":30.689,"endTime":33.929,"body":"forever. One of the things I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":33.929,"endTime":37.259,"body":"realized now is, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":33.929,"endTime":37.259,"body":"started getting into Dr. Deming"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":37.259,"endTime":42.809,"body":"in about 2011. And by the time I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":37.259,"endTime":42.809,"body":"was sort of a serious student,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":43.409,"endTime":47.219,"body":"all the what they call the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":43.409,"endTime":47.219,"body":"greats, were either deeply"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":47.219,"endTime":51.869,"body":"retired and hard to get ahold of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":47.219,"endTime":51.869,"body":"or gone. And so it's, it's sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":51.869,"endTime":55.739,"body":"of rare when I get to talk to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":51.869,"endTime":55.739,"body":"you, some of you. If you go back"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":55.739,"endTime":58.379,"body":"to my original Thoris, clean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":55.739,"endTime":58.379,"body":"which was the third episode,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":58.379,"endTime":62.009,"body":"that was great. But this was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":58.379,"endTime":62.009,"body":"great, too, because he's been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":62.009,"endTime":64.559,"body":"around the greats, he knew the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":62.009,"endTime":64.559,"body":"grades, he got to meet Dr."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":64.559,"endTime":67.709,"body":"Deming, so I think you're gonna"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":64.559,"endTime":67.709,"body":"really enjoy. The one thing I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":67.709,"endTime":70.529,"body":"will tell you, it was very long,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":67.709,"endTime":70.529,"body":"like I said, and we wound up"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":70.529,"endTime":73.769,"body":"breaking it up into two parts."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":70.529,"endTime":73.769,"body":"So this will be the first part."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":74.219,"endTime":76.949,"body":"And then right after that, I'll"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":74.219,"endTime":76.949,"body":"produce the second part. So I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":76.949,"endTime":80.549,"body":"hope you really enjoy it. Thank"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":76.949,"endTime":80.549,"body":"you. Hey, it's John Willis skin."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":80.549,"endTime":86.219,"body":"This is another episode of The"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":80.549,"endTime":86.219,"body":"Deming profound podcast. Just a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":86.219,"endTime":89.459,"body":"little intro here, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":86.219,"endTime":89.459,"body":"I've said this before that I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":89.459,"endTime":94.889,"body":"started looking at darker Deming"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":89.459,"endTime":94.889,"body":"in about 2012. You know, my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":94.889,"endTime":99.659,"body":"second podcast with Ben Rockwood"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":94.889,"endTime":99.659,"body":"last year is, he's the one who"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":99.689,"endTime":104.069,"body":"really sort of got me interested"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":99.689,"endTime":104.069,"body":"and excited about this. And in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":104.069,"endTime":108.839,"body":"about later, in 2012, I created"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":104.069,"endTime":108.839,"body":"a presentation called Deming to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":108.839,"endTime":113.519,"body":"DevOps. And, and one of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":108.839,"endTime":113.519,"body":"things I had heard about is this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":113.519,"endTime":118.889,"body":"meeting in Hong Kong, in Japan,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":113.519,"endTime":118.889,"body":"something around Mount Fuji, I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":118.889,"endTime":123.239,"body":"guessing, but, um, and it was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":118.889,"endTime":123.239,"body":"this really interesting meeting"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":123.239,"endTime":128.069,"body":"about what Deming spoke to a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":123.239,"endTime":128.069,"body":"high percentage of the sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":128.429,"endTime":133.109,"body":"controlling wealth in Japan,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":128.429,"endTime":133.109,"body":"right 1950. And the first blog"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":133.109,"endTime":136.469,"body":"site I found was this gentleman,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":133.109,"endTime":136.469,"body":"I'm about to talk to John"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":136.469,"endTime":139.829,"body":"Hunter, a curious cat. And then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":136.469,"endTime":139.829,"body":"I just started following him"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":139.829,"endTime":142.619,"body":"over the years. And when I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":139.829,"endTime":142.619,"body":"started this podcast that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":142.769,"endTime":145.349,"body":"protect me reach out to him."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":142.769,"endTime":145.349,"body":"I've been a fan of his for a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":145.349,"endTime":147.779,"body":"while. And, John, you want to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":145.349,"endTime":147.779,"body":"introduce yourself?"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":148.68,"endTime":154.5,"body":"Hi, it's good to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":148.68,"endTime":154.5,"body":"talk to you. Okay, so a little"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":154.5,"endTime":162.3,"body":"about myself, I am probably best"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":154.5,"endTime":162.3,"body":"known for the curious cat"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":162.33,"endTime":171.18,"body":"management improvement website."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":162.33,"endTime":171.18,"body":"I've been doing that for over 20"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":171.18,"endTime":178.26,"body":"years. It started a little"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":171.18,"endTime":178.26,"body":"earlier than it was it had the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":178.26,"endTime":183.87,"body":"name curious cat before the web"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":178.26,"endTime":183.87,"body":"really existed or at least"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":183.93,"endTime":189.75,"body":"existed that I knew of. So I've"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":183.93,"endTime":189.75,"body":"been doing that for a long time."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":190.05,"endTime":196.32,"body":"In 2004, I started the curious"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":190.05,"endTime":196.32,"body":"cat management improvement blog,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":196.77,"endTime":206.64,"body":"which I continue to do to this"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":196.77,"endTime":206.64,"body":"day. I wrote a book called"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":206.67,"endTime":215.82,"body":"management matters a few years"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":206.67,"endTime":215.82,"body":"ago, it's a ebook. A couple"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":215.82,"endTime":222.36,"body":"other highlights. I started the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":215.82,"endTime":222.36,"body":"W. Edwards Deming Institute"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":222.36,"endTime":229.83,"body":"website, and I started the blog"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":222.36,"endTime":229.83,"body":"for them in 2012. And I continue"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":229.83,"endTime":235.77,"body":"to write for that blog. Largely"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":229.83,"endTime":235.77,"body":"I've been focused on management"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":235.77,"endTime":243.9,"body":"improvement, and software"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":235.77,"endTime":243.9,"body":"development. So that's a quick"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":244.32,"endTime":247.92,"body":"overview of sort of my"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":244.32,"endTime":247.92,"body":"background."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":248.43,"endTime":252.54,"body":"Great, that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":248.43,"endTime":252.54,"body":"great. Um, yeah, so you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":252.57,"endTime":256.89,"body":"normally if I find somebody who"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":252.57,"endTime":256.89,"body":"is sort of a Deming, expert or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":256.89,"endTime":262.26,"body":"geek or I asked this question,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":256.89,"endTime":262.26,"body":"not everybody on my podcast is a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":262.26,"endTime":265.83,"body":"Deming sort of expert and of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":262.26,"endTime":265.83,"body":"course everybody's heard of him."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":266.13,"endTime":269.31,"body":"But but I'm gonna ask you to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":266.13,"endTime":269.31,"body":"what was your sort of aha"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":269.31,"endTime":272.85,"body":"moment? You know, was like What"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":269.31,"endTime":272.85,"body":"Why did you get so passionate"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":272.85,"endTime":273.84,"body":"about their damming?"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":275.01,"endTime":281.34,"body":"Okay, so this is a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":275.01,"endTime":281.34,"body":"long answer. Sure. I don't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":281.34,"endTime":290.58,"body":"really have an AHA Okay. Ah, I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":281.34,"endTime":290.58,"body":"really was introduced to these"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":290.58,"endTime":300.75,"body":"ideas as a kid. My father has"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":290.58,"endTime":300.75,"body":"been involved in these things"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":300.87,"endTime":306.18,"body":"since I was a kid. And so before"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":300.87,"endTime":306.18,"body":"I knew the name Deming, or even"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":306.18,"endTime":311.64,"body":"management improvement or"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":306.18,"endTime":311.64,"body":"anything like that, I became"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":312.42,"endTime":317.25,"body":"familiar with the ideas and the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":312.42,"endTime":317.25,"body":"concepts just in the way that I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":317.25,"endTime":325.14,"body":"was raised. We had database"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":317.25,"endTime":325.14,"body":"thinking he would do experiments"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":325.14,"endTime":329.97,"body":"to see what would work, he would"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":325.14,"endTime":329.97,"body":"think in a process based way."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":332.07,"endTime":336.45,"body":"So, yeah, we would use visual"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":332.07,"endTime":336.45,"body":"management for every wasn't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":336.45,"endTime":340.02,"body":"called bad. But we would use"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":336.45,"endTime":340.02,"body":"those ideas in things like"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":340.02,"endTime":343.02,"body":"chores we were supposed to do"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":340.02,"endTime":343.02,"body":"around the house, or, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":343.02,"endTime":347.73,"body":"those kinds of things. So I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":343.02,"endTime":347.73,"body":"started up with this stuff, all"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":347.73,"endTime":352.62,"body":"the way from being kid before I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":347.73,"endTime":352.62,"body":"knew about it in, you know, the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":352.62,"endTime":364.02,"body":"name Deming. I guess, the time"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":352.62,"endTime":364.02,"body":"when Well, there's two pieces, I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":364.02,"endTime":373.5,"body":"guess, a specific part of that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":364.02,"endTime":373.5,"body":"database thinking is design of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":373.5,"endTime":379.89,"body":"experiments, which most people"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":373.5,"endTime":379.89,"body":"familiar with Deming or lean,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":380.25,"endTime":385.08,"body":"don't know about a fair number"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":380.25,"endTime":385.08,"body":"of people that know about Six"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":385.08,"endTime":388.98,"body":"Sigma know about design of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":385.08,"endTime":388.98,"body":"experiments. But essentially,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":389.01,"endTime":393.15,"body":"design of experiments is about"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":389.01,"endTime":393.15,"body":"interactions. And the fact that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":393.18,"endTime":399.15,"body":"the way we often think about"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":393.18,"endTime":399.15,"body":"doing tasks and experiments is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":399.15,"endTime":406.71,"body":"to vary one variable at a time,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":399.15,"endTime":406.71,"body":"which, of course, will not tell"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":406.71,"endTime":409.59,"body":"you anything about interactions"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":406.71,"endTime":409.59,"body":"between that variable and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":409.59,"endTime":415.08,"body":"something else. So it's not a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":409.59,"endTime":415.08,"body":"very good way to do experiments,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":415.2,"endTime":422.91,"body":"but it's still the way that we"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":415.2,"endTime":422.91,"body":"often do. And so my father was,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":423.09,"endTime":427.62,"body":"he wrote a book with George Box,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":423.09,"endTime":427.62,"body":"and Stu Hunter, called"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":427.65,"endTime":435.54,"body":"statistics for experimenters."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":427.65,"endTime":435.54,"body":"And that book is pretty much one"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":435.54,"endTime":439.53,"body":"of maybe two that are used by"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":435.54,"endTime":439.53,"body":"people that do design of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":439.53,"endTime":446.94,"body":"experiments. Um, that book he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":439.53,"endTime":446.94,"body":"was writing, when I was a little"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":446.94,"endTime":453.03,"body":"kid. And I remember, as a little"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":446.94,"endTime":453.03,"body":"kid, being exposed to the ideas,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":453.06,"endTime":459.27,"body":"not the complex ideas, but the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":453.06,"endTime":459.27,"body":"basic ideas. He was published"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":459.27,"endTime":462.81,"body":"just before we went to Nigeria"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":459.27,"endTime":462.81,"body":"for a year where he was a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":462.81,"endTime":471.63,"body":"professor, and that the ideas"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":462.81,"endTime":471.63,"body":"from that book just were"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":471.63,"endTime":474.75,"body":"something that just came"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":471.63,"endTime":474.75,"body":"naturally through our course of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":475.89,"endTime":483.42,"body":"living. And then in when I was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":475.89,"endTime":483.42,"body":"in high school, well, when we"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":483.42,"endTime":486.42,"body":"got back from Nigeria, one of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":483.42,"endTime":486.42,"body":"the things that dad decided was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":486.42,"endTime":489.99,"body":"he really liked Madison,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":486.42,"endTime":489.99,"body":"Wisconsin, which is where he was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":489.99,"endTime":495.69,"body":"a professor. And so he wanted to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":489.99,"endTime":495.69,"body":"help make Madison better. 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And that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":537.6,"endTime":541.71,"body":"was when I was in high school."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":537.6,"endTime":541.71,"body":"And I'm not exactly sure when"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":541.71,"endTime":547.98,"body":"maybe a year after that, maybe a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":541.71,"endTime":547.98,"body":"year and a half. There was a,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":548.55,"endTime":553.23,"body":"you know, they would train the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":548.55,"endTime":553.23,"body":"city employees and things. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":553.56,"endTime":559.53,"body":"during my summer vacation, I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":553.56,"endTime":559.53,"body":"went to one of those city"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":560.31,"endTime":564.66,"body":"training classes and sat in on"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":560.31,"endTime":564.66,"body":"that. 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And so I got excited about"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":608.4,"endTime":613.56,"body":"the prospect of doing that, and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":613.59,"endTime":624.87,"body":"got involved with that effort."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":613.59,"endTime":624.87,"body":"And from there, I really started"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":624.87,"endTime":632.34,"body":"to do a lot with Deming and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":624.87,"endTime":632.34,"body":"quality management, some one of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":632.34,"endTime":638.61,"body":"the things I did while I was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":632.34,"endTime":638.61,"body":"there was helped set up the ASQ"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":638.91,"endTime":647.37,"body":"government division where it was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":638.91,"endTime":647.37,"body":"some people from the city of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":647.37,"endTime":651.9,"body":"Madison, the state of Madison,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":647.37,"endTime":651.9,"body":"at that time, I had moved to the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":651.9,"endTime":655.59,"body":"secretary defense Quality"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":651.9,"endTime":655.59,"body":"Management Office. And we had"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":655.59,"endTime":660.66,"body":"some people from Austin, Texas,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":655.59,"endTime":660.66,"body":"and from the state of New York."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":662.34,"endTime":668.37,"body":"And so from there, I was able to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":662.34,"endTime":668.37,"body":"do continue getting interested"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":668.37,"endTime":678.57,"body":"in these things, and really, you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":668.37,"endTime":678.57,"body":"know, get deep into the ideas of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":678.57,"endTime":681.0,"body":"Deming and management"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":678.57,"endTime":681.0,"body":"improvement."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":681.899,"endTime":685.919,"body":"Really brilliant."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":681.899,"endTime":685.919,"body":"Um, so just sort of a heads up,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":685.919,"endTime":688.829,"body":"like the most of the people that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":685.919,"endTime":688.829,"body":"listen to this podcast come"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":688.829,"endTime":693.599,"body":"from, you know, so Well, we got"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":688.829,"endTime":693.599,"body":"a movement called DevOps, but a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":693.599,"endTime":697.649,"body":"lot of sort of sysadmin, Linux"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":693.599,"endTime":697.649,"body":"System Administration, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":697.649,"endTime":700.979,"body":"building data centers,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":697.649,"endTime":700.979,"body":"definitely a lot of sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":700.979,"endTime":706.019,"body":"software, agile software"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":700.979,"endTime":706.019,"body":"development, people and, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":706.019,"endTime":709.889,"body":"know, and I'm certain parts of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":706.019,"endTime":709.889,"body":"the Agile would completely"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":709.889,"endTime":715.019,"body":"understand, but when you say,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":709.889,"endTime":715.019,"body":"digital management or database"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":715.019,"endTime":720.509,"body":"thinking, and then even sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":715.019,"endTime":720.509,"body":"DOE design of experiment, can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":720.509,"endTime":724.169,"body":"you tie that in? So when I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":720.509,"endTime":724.169,"body":"of sort of Deming, you know, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":724.169,"endTime":728.039,"body":"again, maybe I don't have a good"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":724.169,"endTime":728.039,"body":"stronger view of things I should"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":728.039,"endTime":730.409,"body":"know more about, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":728.039,"endTime":730.409,"body":"think about, you know, what he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":730.409,"endTime":734.729,"body":"wrote, I think about system,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":730.409,"endTime":734.729,"body":"system of profound knowledge, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":734.729,"endTime":737.009,"body":"think about variations,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":734.729,"endTime":737.009,"body":"different press Control, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":737.009,"endTime":741.299,"body":"about the epistemology or the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":737.009,"endTime":741.299,"body":"the, you know, the theory of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":741.509,"endTime":745.019,"body":"knowledge, the theory of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":741.509,"endTime":745.019,"body":"variation theory of psychology"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":745.019,"endTime":748.859,"body":"and appreciation systems, all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":745.019,"endTime":748.859,"body":"those things that have 14 points"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":748.859,"endTime":753.839,"body":"and go on. But the point being,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":748.859,"endTime":753.839,"body":"I don't necessarily think about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":754.259,"endTime":757.439,"body":"it, maybe when I was born in my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":754.259,"endTime":757.439,"body":"Deming journey, I don't think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":757.439,"endTime":761.219,"body":"about, or I haven't really heard"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":757.439,"endTime":761.219,"body":"the terms database thinking"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":761.549,"endTime":765.929,"body":"applied to Deming, or digital"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":761.549,"endTime":765.929,"body":"management, and then, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":765.929,"endTime":769.289,"body":"have heard of design of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":765.929,"endTime":769.289,"body":"experiments, but can you give,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":769.559,"endTime":773.069,"body":"give me a little more sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":769.559,"endTime":773.069,"body":"education there? Is that? Yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":773.069,"endTime":773.339,"body":"so"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":773.37,"endTime":780.57,"body":"part of it is that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":773.37,"endTime":780.57,"body":"design of experiments, if you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":780.6,"endTime":787.5,"body":"understand it, and know about it"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":780.6,"endTime":787.5,"body":"completely meshes with all of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":787.5,"endTime":790.53,"body":"that stuff about epistemology?"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":787.5,"endTime":790.53,"body":"And how do you know what you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":790.53,"endTime":797.91,"body":"know, and the theory of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":790.53,"endTime":797.91,"body":"knowledge, but most people don't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":798.48,"endTime":802.83,"body":"know about design of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":798.48,"endTime":802.83,"body":"experiments. I remember, the My"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":802.83,"endTime":806.67,"body":"dad taught me that, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":802.83,"endTime":806.67,"body":"the basic concept, which is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":806.67,"endTime":809.64,"body":"that, you know, if you're going"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":806.67,"endTime":809.64,"body":"to do an experiment, you very"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":809.64,"endTime":813.69,"body":"several of the variables at the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":809.64,"endTime":813.69,"body":"same time. Um, when I was in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":813.69,"endTime":816.18,"body":"seventh and eighth grade, I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":813.69,"endTime":816.18,"body":"remember there was a class I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":816.18,"endTime":820.23,"body":"took where, you know, that was,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":816.18,"endTime":820.23,"body":"you know, science class, and I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":820.23,"endTime":827.22,"body":"experiment was a design of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":820.23,"endTime":827.22,"body":"experiment idea. And I would"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":827.22,"endTime":829.92,"body":"talk to him about Well, so what"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":827.22,"endTime":829.92,"body":"are you doing when you're going"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":829.92,"endTime":833.61,"body":"away and consulting with these"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":829.92,"endTime":833.61,"body":"companies, you know, because he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":833.61,"endTime":837.75,"body":"would go and consult on these"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":833.61,"endTime":837.75,"body":"topics. And he said, Well, I'm"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":837.75,"endTime":840.93,"body":"going to teach him about design"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":837.75,"endTime":840.93,"body":"experiments. And I said, Well,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":840.93,"endTime":845.04,"body":"what do you mean, they're"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":840.93,"endTime":845.04,"body":"adults, they have degrees in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":845.04,"endTime":847.59,"body":"engineering, how do they not"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":845.04,"endTime":847.59,"body":"know this? And he said, No, that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":847.8,"endTime":853.08,"body":"literally, I go to these"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":847.8,"endTime":853.08,"body":"companies, and they still do one"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":853.17,"endTime":856.47,"body":"design, they still do"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":853.17,"endTime":856.47,"body":"experiments where they vary one"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":856.47,"endTime":864.42,"body":"variable at a time. And I could"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":856.47,"endTime":864.42,"body":"not grasp that concept as a kid."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":866.01,"endTime":878.94,"body":"And I now sort of understand a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":866.01,"endTime":878.94,"body":"bit more about how the world"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":878.97,"endTime":882.42,"body":"that I imagined as a kid of all"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":878.97,"endTime":882.42,"body":"these intelligent adults that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":882.42,"endTime":885.84,"body":"know exactly how things should"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":882.42,"endTime":885.84,"body":"work and have, you know, gone to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":885.84,"endTime":889.71,"body":"school and are doing everything"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":885.84,"endTime":889.71,"body":"correctly, is not a very"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":889.71,"endTime":893.55,"body":"accurate perception of the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":889.71,"endTime":893.55,"body":"world. But so Design of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":893.55,"endTime":899.13,"body":"Experiments has not done that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":893.55,"endTime":899.13,"body":"much. It isn't complicated. I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":899.13,"endTime":902.88,"body":"mean, like I said, I was in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":899.13,"endTime":902.88,"body":"eighth grade, I think when I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":902.88,"endTime":906.6,"body":"did, you know, design of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":902.88,"endTime":906.6,"body":"experiment for myself. Um, one"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":906.6,"endTime":910.32,"body":"of the things I'll mention, what"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":906.6,"endTime":910.32,"body":"I usually do with these podcasts"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":910.38,"endTime":915.54,"body":"is, I will create a blog post"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":910.38,"endTime":915.54,"body":"with a link to the podcast. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":915.54,"endTime":919.86,"body":"then I'll link to a bunch of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":915.54,"endTime":919.86,"body":"resources I have online. So I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":919.86,"endTime":922.86,"body":"can link to a couple things for"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":919.86,"endTime":922.86,"body":"people that are interested in,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":922.86,"endTime":926.46,"body":"they'll be great picking up some"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":922.86,"endTime":926.46,"body":"Orion design experiments. Um,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":927.3,"endTime":935.55,"body":"the but yeah, so in general, the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":927.3,"endTime":935.55,"body":"Deming community does not talk"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":935.55,"endTime":940.89,"body":"about it or use design of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":935.55,"endTime":940.89,"body":"experiments that much. Having"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":940.89,"endTime":945.12,"body":"said that, one of the things the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":940.89,"endTime":945.12,"body":"people who were on the stage"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":945.12,"endTime":948.84,"body":"with Deming talking at all these"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":945.12,"endTime":948.84,"body":"seminars and things, almost all"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":948.84,"endTime":952.2,"body":"of them were statisticians. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":948.84,"endTime":952.2,"body":"so almost all of them you knew"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":952.2,"endTime":956.85,"body":"about designing experiments use"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":952.2,"endTime":956.85,"body":"design of experiments. 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Where the Deming,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1051.83,"endTime":1057.32,"body":"people would do a PDSA, but the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1057.32,"endTime":1061.13,"body":"way that they would do design an"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1057.32,"endTime":1061.13,"body":"experiment is very similar to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1061.13,"endTime":1064.52,"body":"PDSA. It's sort of an"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1061.13,"endTime":1064.52,"body":"incremental approach. A lot of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1064.52,"endTime":1069.89,"body":"times George Box, I think, was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1064.52,"endTime":1069.89,"body":"the one that coined the term Eve"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1069.89,"endTime":1074.03,"body":"op, which is evolutionary"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1069.89,"endTime":1074.03,"body":"operations, which is sort of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1074.03,"endTime":1077.69,"body":"similar to what people would"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1074.03,"endTime":1077.69,"body":"think about with PDSA, where"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1077.69,"endTime":1081.44,"body":"PDSA for the people who aren't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1077.69,"endTime":1081.44,"body":"familiar with it, Plan, Do Study"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1081.44,"endTime":1086.27,"body":"Act. The one of the core"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1081.44,"endTime":1086.27,"body":"principles with that is that you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1086.33,"endTime":1092.3,"body":"it's not one experiment, you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1086.33,"endTime":1092.3,"body":"have a concept, you test it out"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1092.33,"endTime":1095.75,"body":"very quickly, you learn from"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1092.33,"endTime":1095.75,"body":"that test, you adjust it a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1095.75,"endTime":1098.9,"body":"little bit, you test it, again,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1095.75,"endTime":1098.9,"body":"you learn from that you just did"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1098.9,"endTime":1102.56,"body":"you test it again. And that's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1098.9,"endTime":1102.56,"body":"what evolutionary operations is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1102.56,"endTime":1106.61,"body":"for design experiments, you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1102.56,"endTime":1106.61,"body":"learn some you then test again."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1106.79,"endTime":1112.07,"body":"So the the concept there, again,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1106.79,"endTime":1112.07,"body":"is very similar. It's that you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1112.31,"endTime":1116.78,"body":"are continually learning"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1112.31,"endTime":1116.78,"body":"adjusting your premise."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1117.23,"endTime":1122.3,"body":"Experiment, again, adjust your"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1117.23,"endTime":1122.3,"body":"premise experiment again. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1122.3,"endTime":1126.92,"body":"the design of experiments is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1122.3,"endTime":1126.92,"body":"just a little more formal way of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1126.92,"endTime":1131.18,"body":"doing it that sometimes might"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1126.92,"endTime":1131.18,"body":"not be necessary, might not fit"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1131.18,"endTime":1136.85,"body":"very well, for certain things."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1131.18,"endTime":1136.85,"body":"Like a lot of the Deming stuff,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1136.88,"endTime":1140.15,"body":"in my opinion, works extremely"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1136.88,"endTime":1140.15,"body":"well, for software development."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1140.72,"endTime":1144.2,"body":"It's hard to to see where a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1140.72,"endTime":1144.2,"body":"bunch of Design of Experiments"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1144.2,"endTime":1151.73,"body":"stuff would work for software"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1144.2,"endTime":1151.73,"body":"development. But maybe it's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1151.73,"endTime":1152.27,"body":"possible."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1152.3,"endTime":1154.85,"body":"Let's let's table"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1152.3,"endTime":1154.85,"body":"that a little bit because I have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1154.85,"endTime":1156.89,"body":"an interesting conversation. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1154.85,"endTime":1156.89,"body":"I just to give you a little bit"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1156.89,"endTime":1160.22,"body":"of background, and I guarantee"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1156.89,"endTime":1160.22,"body":"I've forgotten everything that I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1160.22,"endTime":1163.79,"body":"learned, but one of my jobs"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1160.22,"endTime":1163.79,"body":"years ago, and then we're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1163.79,"endTime":1168.59,"body":"talking probably 25 years ago is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1163.79,"endTime":1168.59,"body":"that Ge Ge capital and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1168.59,"endTime":1171.68,"body":"actually was given a green belt."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1168.59,"endTime":1171.68,"body":"So they basically give you a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1171.68,"endTime":1175.28,"body":"green belt. You know, you just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1171.68,"endTime":1175.28,"body":"right? It's like karate, you get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1175.28,"endTime":1177.83,"body":"it you get it you get a white"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1175.28,"endTime":1177.83,"body":"belt when you start right. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1177.83,"endTime":1181.61,"body":"my wife was actually a black"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1177.83,"endTime":1181.61,"body":"belt and and I actually got to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1181.61,"endTime":1185.36,"body":"go to Croton Ville. And so I did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1181.61,"endTime":1185.36,"body":"actually, you know, sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1185.36,"endTime":1187.76,"body":"understand I didn't I think like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1185.36,"endTime":1187.76,"body":"you said don't take what you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1187.76,"endTime":1190.58,"body":"said which is and I'm going to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1187.76,"endTime":1190.58,"body":"get to a question here in a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1190.58,"endTime":1194.03,"body":"minute. But that you know that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1190.58,"endTime":1194.03,"body":"like a lot of people look at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1194.12,"endTime":1197.75,"body":"like six sigma done terribly and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1194.12,"endTime":1197.75,"body":"there's a lot of Six Sigma done"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1197.75,"endTime":1201.83,"body":"terribly. And just basically say"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1197.75,"endTime":1201.83,"body":"It's a terrible thing or even"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1201.83,"endTime":1204.47,"body":"lean is a terrible thing. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1201.83,"endTime":1204.47,"body":"you know, there's even a back,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1204.86,"endTime":1209.18,"body":"shins agile these days in some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1204.86,"endTime":1209.18,"body":"ways. But, but I sort of Six"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1209.21,"endTime":1215.12,"body":"Sigma done reasonably well i in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1209.21,"endTime":1215.12,"body":"some ways it was fantastic you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1215.12,"endTime":1219.26,"body":"know, in some ways it was a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1215.12,"endTime":1219.26,"body":"little pedantic but, um, but I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1219.26,"endTime":1222.68,"body":"guess the one thing I you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1219.26,"endTime":1222.68,"body":"back then I knew nothing of Dr."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1222.68,"endTime":1225.89,"body":"Deming, right. And, and then,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1222.68,"endTime":1225.89,"body":"you know, I started learning"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1225.89,"endTime":1229.7,"body":"about Dr. Deming, as I said"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1225.89,"endTime":1229.7,"body":"earlier in 2000. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1229.7,"endTime":1234.35,"body":"1112, right, because I went"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1229.7,"endTime":1234.35,"body":"backwards because I, a friend of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1234.35,"endTime":1239.33,"body":"mine, Jean Kim, or a book called"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1234.35,"endTime":1239.33,"body":"the finished project. And before"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1239.33,"endTime":1243.02,"body":"he was finished with it, it's a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1239.33,"endTime":1243.02,"body":"rewrite of purposeful rewrite of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1243.02,"endTime":1247.85,"body":"the goal by Eleiko. Rat. And he,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1243.02,"endTime":1247.85,"body":"he forced me before he would let"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1247.85,"endTime":1250.79,"body":"you return a copy of his"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1247.85,"endTime":1250.79,"body":"finished project, to read the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1250.79,"endTime":1253.55,"body":"goal. And I was just, this is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1250.79,"endTime":1253.55,"body":"amazing. And then I learned"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1253.55,"endTime":1258.98,"body":"about Deming. But, you know, I,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1253.55,"endTime":1258.98,"body":"my natural instinct was like in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1258.98,"endTime":1262.85,"body":"2013 14, to say, oh, Deming must"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1258.98,"endTime":1262.85,"body":"have been involved in the Six"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1262.85,"endTime":1266.93,"body":"Sigma stuff, everything seems,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1262.85,"endTime":1266.93,"body":"you know, I couldn't really find"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1266.93,"endTime":1271.31,"body":"I mean, there's some debates out"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1266.93,"endTime":1271.31,"body":"there, you know, again, there's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1271.31,"endTime":1273.8,"body":"a fair amount of people that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1271.31,"endTime":1273.8,"body":"say, they don't think he had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1273.8,"endTime":1276.77,"body":"anything to do it, I find that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1273.8,"endTime":1276.77,"body":"nonsensical. But,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1277.19,"endTime":1282.05,"body":"well, basically, I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1277.19,"endTime":1282.05,"body":"would say that that's probably a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1282.05,"endTime":1287.84,"body":"truer explanation that he didn't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1282.05,"endTime":1287.84,"body":"have anything to do with it. Um,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1288.14,"endTime":1292.31,"body":"the, there's a couple of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1288.14,"endTime":1292.31,"body":"problems trying to figure it"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1292.31,"endTime":1296.24,"body":"out. But so one thing is, the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1292.31,"endTime":1296.24,"body":"way that he was somewhat"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1296.24,"endTime":1301.64,"body":"involved is that people who were"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1296.24,"endTime":1301.64,"body":"involved in doing six sigma"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1301.64,"endTime":1307.94,"body":"stuff, either learn some things"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1301.64,"endTime":1307.94,"body":"directly from him, or, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1307.94,"endTime":1310.61,"body":"from organizations that were"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1307.94,"endTime":1310.61,"body":"doing things based on what he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1310.61,"endTime":1315.02,"body":"said. So he had an influence,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1310.61,"endTime":1315.02,"body":"not because he was involved, but"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1315.02,"endTime":1322.28,"body":"because they used some of his"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1315.02,"endTime":1322.28,"body":"ideas. Um, there's a sense in,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1323.21,"endTime":1331.04,"body":"in much of the Deming community"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1323.21,"endTime":1331.04,"body":"to be a he'd said some bad"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1331.04,"endTime":1335.27,"body":"things about six sigma, and some"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1331.04,"endTime":1335.27,"body":"bad things about total quality"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1335.27,"endTime":1342.53,"body":"management. that were true, how"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1335.27,"endTime":1342.53,"body":"he truly felt and what he truly"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1342.53,"endTime":1351.62,"body":"believed. But I think that the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1342.53,"endTime":1351.62,"body":"people who then you hear talk"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1351.62,"endTime":1356.63,"body":"about it today, um, don't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1351.62,"endTime":1356.63,"body":"understand in the same way that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1356.63,"endTime":1362.57,"body":"he did that. He had problems"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1356.63,"endTime":1362.57,"body":"with how anything was applied."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1362.78,"endTime":1365.72,"body":"And so he definitely had"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1362.78,"endTime":1365.72,"body":"problems with six sigma, there"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1365.72,"endTime":1370.13,"body":"were definitely big problems for"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1365.72,"endTime":1370.13,"body":"him and how Six Sigma was done."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1370.43,"endTime":1374.87,"body":"But that's very different than"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1370.43,"endTime":1374.87,"body":"saying anything involved in Six"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1374.87,"endTime":1382.16,"body":"Sigma is bad. This is a long"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1374.87,"endTime":1382.16,"body":"time ago, I went to one of these"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1382.58,"endTime":1389.27,"body":"six sigma conferences that had a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1382.58,"endTime":1389.27,"body":"couple of the CIO at in GE,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1389.3,"endTime":1393.23,"body":"there's a lot of stuff done. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1389.3,"endTime":1393.23,"body":"a lot of it, I don't think we've"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1393.23,"endTime":1396.35,"body":"done fairly well. But there's an"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1393.23,"endTime":1396.35,"body":"Applied Statistics Department,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1396.38,"endTime":1400.52,"body":"which is in GE, and was very"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1396.38,"endTime":1400.52,"body":"involved in a lot of this stuff."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1400.55,"endTime":1405.35,"body":"And those people, in my opinion,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1400.55,"endTime":1405.35,"body":"were great. People like Jerry"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1405.35,"endTime":1410.87,"body":"Hahn, and oh, shoot, I'm"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1405.35,"endTime":1410.87,"body":"forgetting his name right now."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1410.87,"endTime":1416.99,"body":"But he was great. Um, they"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1410.87,"endTime":1416.99,"body":"anyway. But those people were at"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1416.99,"endTime":1420.02,"body":"the conference and some other"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1416.99,"endTime":1420.02,"body":"people, oh, Allied Signal did"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1420.02,"endTime":1425.12,"body":"some good stuff. And Bill Hill,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1420.02,"endTime":1425.12,"body":"who had been Family Friends"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1425.12,"endTime":1429.59,"body":"Forever, was one of those"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1425.12,"endTime":1429.59,"body":"people. And what I would say to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1429.59,"endTime":1433.52,"body":"the gaming people, yes, it was,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1429.59,"endTime":1433.52,"body":"who knows 2025 years ago, was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1433.52,"endTime":1437.48,"body":"look, if you talk to those"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1433.52,"endTime":1437.48,"body":"people, about six sigma, it's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1437.48,"endTime":1441.23,"body":"all good. Everything they're"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1437.48,"endTime":1441.23,"body":"saying is something that is a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1441.23,"endTime":1446.39,"body":"good thing. And we should be"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1441.23,"endTime":1446.39,"body":"doing, in my opinion, which is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1446.39,"endTime":1450.68,"body":"different than taking individual"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1446.39,"endTime":1450.68,"body":"Deming quotes of saying, you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1450.68,"endTime":1453.92,"body":"know, this stuff is really bad."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1450.68,"endTime":1453.92,"body":"Deming wasn't trying to figure"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1453.92,"endTime":1457.97,"body":"out, okay, let's look at six"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1453.92,"endTime":1457.97,"body":"sigma, and see if there's some"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1457.97,"endTime":1462.59,"body":"good stuff in there. He was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1457.97,"endTime":1462.59,"body":"just, you know, trying to get"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1462.59,"endTime":1466.82,"body":"people to do better management"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1462.59,"endTime":1466.82,"body":"and being distracted by Oh, but"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1466.82,"endTime":1470.15,"body":"what about this flavor of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1466.82,"endTime":1470.15,"body":"management that I like, he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1470.15,"endTime":1476.36,"body":"didn't want to spend? That's my"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1470.15,"endTime":1476.36,"body":"opinion about where things were."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1476.42,"endTime":1476.78,"body":"I love"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1476.78,"endTime":1479.15,"body":"that observation. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1476.78,"endTime":1479.15,"body":"have a good friend of mine who"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1479.15,"endTime":1485.27,"body":"was really into complex systems"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1479.15,"endTime":1485.27,"body":"and just he studies with the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1485.27,"endTime":1488.99,"body":"guys who do a resilience"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1485.27,"endTime":1488.99,"body":"engineering on sort of, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1488.99,"endTime":1495.89,"body":"know, it airline safety"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1488.99,"endTime":1495.89,"body":"catastrophes and, and he it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1495.92,"endTime":1499.25,"body":"kind of comforting to think that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1495.92,"endTime":1499.25,"body":"like, because every time I throw"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1499.25,"endTime":1502.28,"body":"something at him Like a new sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1499.25,"endTime":1502.28,"body":"of framework or something like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1502.28,"endTime":1506.18,"body":"that he's, I don't like, for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1502.28,"endTime":1506.18,"body":"the, you know, I can like Now"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1506.18,"endTime":1510.08,"body":"just see that vision of Deming"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1506.18,"endTime":1510.08,"body":"saying that, you know, like, my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1510.08,"endTime":1513.2,"body":"friend, Josh Powell will say,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1510.08,"endTime":1513.2,"body":"John that's distracting me from"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1513.2,"endTime":1515.6,"body":"what I really want to do is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1513.2,"endTime":1515.6,"body":"learn the truth about like, how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1515.6,"endTime":1519.83,"body":"to improve things. So that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1515.6,"endTime":1519.83,"body":"pretty brilliant. The did you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1519.83,"endTime":1523.37,"body":"have you? Did you have the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1519.83,"endTime":1523.37,"body":"opportunity to pleasure to meet"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1523.58,"endTime":1524.3,"body":"Dr. Deming?"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1524.81,"endTime":1530.57,"body":"Yeah, though, it"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1524.81,"endTime":1530.57,"body":"was when he was really old. So I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1530.57,"endTime":1536.63,"body":"met him, I don't know, six or"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1530.57,"endTime":1536.63,"body":"seven times. Sort of small,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1536.63,"endTime":1539.63,"body":"different things, and he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1536.63,"endTime":1539.63,"body":"couldn't hear very well. So you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1539.63,"endTime":1544.31,"body":"had to sort of yell. And so I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1539.63,"endTime":1544.31,"body":"like I like went to one of the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1544.31,"endTime":1549.8,"body":"two and a half day seminars out"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1544.31,"endTime":1549.8,"body":"with that. And I saw him a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1549.8,"endTime":1553.13,"body":"couple times when I was at the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1549.8,"endTime":1553.13,"body":"retirement system. For federal"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1553.13,"endTime":1558.8,"body":"government, he came to speak"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1553.13,"endTime":1558.8,"body":"there once on the ends a couple"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1558.8,"endTime":1564.32,"body":"times for whatever reasons, I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1558.8,"endTime":1564.32,"body":"would with a group of people"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1564.32,"endTime":1567.65,"body":"went to dinner with him and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1564.32,"endTime":1567.65,"body":"things like that. And it was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1567.65,"endTime":1571.43,"body":"good. And so like, he knew my"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1567.65,"endTime":1571.43,"body":"dad fairly well, and knew"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1571.46,"endTime":1576.56,"body":"several people like Peter shell"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1571.46,"endTime":1576.56,"body":"pays and Brian joiner for people"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1576.56,"endTime":1582.68,"body":"who are interested in Deming,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1576.56,"endTime":1582.68,"body":"are pretty famous, especially if"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1582.68,"endTime":1585.71,"body":"they were interested in Deming a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1582.68,"endTime":1585.71,"body":"long time ago, they both taught"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1585.71,"endTime":1591.14,"body":"with Deming on the stage. My dad"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1585.71,"endTime":1591.14,"body":"died when I was in college. So"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1591.17,"endTime":1594.83,"body":"he died very close to the time"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1591.17,"endTime":1594.83,"body":"that Deming started become"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1594.83,"endTime":1600.68,"body":"really famous. But and so those"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1594.83,"endTime":1600.68,"body":"seminars and things were"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1600.68,"endTime":1606.17,"body":"basically after he was already"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1600.68,"endTime":1606.17,"body":"dead. But like in, but so Peter"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1606.17,"endTime":1609.83,"body":"Schultz and Brian joiner, were"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1606.17,"endTime":1609.83,"body":"both in Madison, and where I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1609.83,"endTime":1617.12,"body":"was, and so is George Box. So"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1609.83,"endTime":1617.12,"body":"Madison really had if you look"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1617.18,"endTime":1623.99,"body":"at sort of what was going on in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1617.18,"endTime":1623.99,"body":"Demings ideas, Madison was, I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1623.99,"endTime":1627.74,"body":"don't think there can be a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1623.99,"endTime":1627.74,"body":"debate other than Deming himself"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1627.8,"endTime":1632.24,"body":"was the center of Deming stuff"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1627.8,"endTime":1632.24,"body":"going on in the United States,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1632.51,"endTime":1635.99,"body":"and joint associates guide"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1632.51,"endTime":1635.99,"body":"consulted all over the country."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1635.99,"endTime":1641.0,"body":"So you know, they, it spread"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1635.99,"endTime":1641.0,"body":"beyond Madison, of course, but"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1641.03,"endTime":1643.28,"body":"you had all those people in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1641.03,"endTime":1643.28,"body":"Madison, who were really great."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1643.28,"endTime":1649.25,"body":"And so we would, I mean, as a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1643.28,"endTime":1649.25,"body":"kid, those people, George boxes,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1649.25,"endTime":1654.53,"body":"dad's best friend, and Brian"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1649.25,"endTime":1654.53,"body":"joiner was another statistician,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1654.8,"endTime":1658.16,"body":"and his wife, Laurie Joyner were"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1654.8,"endTime":1658.16,"body":"great friends. So we had them"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1658.79,"endTime":1662.18,"body":"over to dinner all the time. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1658.79,"endTime":1662.18,"body":"I forget, there's actually a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1662.18,"endTime":1666.53,"body":"point I was making on this. So"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1662.18,"endTime":1666.53,"body":"related to what you just said."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1667.16,"endTime":1669.02,"body":"Yeah, no, I just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1667.16,"endTime":1669.02,"body":"was wondering that we had you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1669.02,"endTime":1670.22,"body":"met because, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1670.67,"endTime":1673.73,"body":"met Danny, the so"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1670.67,"endTime":1673.73,"body":"when I would meet with Deming,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1673.73,"endTime":1677.81,"body":"sometimes it was difficult,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1673.73,"endTime":1677.81,"body":"because you'd have to speak up"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1677.81,"endTime":1681.71,"body":"to them to hear. So that way"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1677.81,"endTime":1681.71,"body":"that I was most able to engage"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1681.71,"endTime":1685.55,"body":"with him is when I was talking"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1681.71,"endTime":1685.55,"body":"about those people. And so he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1685.55,"endTime":1693.98,"body":"would I, he was interested in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1685.55,"endTime":1693.98,"body":"talking to me, largely because"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1693.98,"endTime":1697.82,"body":"of those connections. So, you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1693.98,"endTime":1697.82,"body":"know, he would be interested in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1697.82,"endTime":1702.53,"body":"talking to me compared to other"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1697.82,"endTime":1702.53,"body":"people that just happen to be"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1702.53,"endTime":1702.89,"body":"there."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1703.099,"endTime":1705.799,"body":"It's cool. You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1703.099,"endTime":1705.799,"body":"know, I had, like my third"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1705.799,"endTime":1710.569,"body":"podcast. I had heard about Doris"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1705.799,"endTime":1710.569,"body":"Quinn, again, really early on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1710.569,"endTime":1713.959,"body":"and and you know, over the last"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1710.569,"endTime":1713.959,"body":"couple years, I've been a little"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1713.959,"endTime":1717.589,"body":"more serious about my research"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1713.959,"endTime":1717.589,"body":"on Dr. Deming and so I tracked"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1717.589,"endTime":1721.969,"body":"her down which was easy to find"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1717.589,"endTime":1721.969,"body":"her she's retired somewhere up"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1721.969,"endTime":1726.019,"body":"in New Hampshire and I had her"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1721.969,"endTime":1726.019,"body":"on a podcast and I you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1726.019,"endTime":1728.869,"body":"Peter Shelton, talked about him"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1726.019,"endTime":1728.869,"body":"and him and shortish is an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1729.139,"endTime":1733.279,"body":"interesting story there. But he,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1729.139,"endTime":1733.279,"body":"but she talked about when she"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1733.309,"endTime":1737.209,"body":"you know, the first time she met"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1733.309,"endTime":1737.209,"body":"Dr. Deming, you probably were"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1737.239,"endTime":1738.169,"body":"adores queen or"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1738.5,"endTime":1741.02,"body":"Yeah. And I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1738.5,"endTime":1741.02,"body":"listened to your podcast that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1741.02,"endTime":1743.75,"body":"you mentioned, okay. People"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1741.02,"endTime":1743.75,"body":"should listen, she said"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1743.75,"endTime":1745.52,"body":"in there, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1743.75,"endTime":1745.52,"body":"like, so I was not, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1745.52,"endTime":1749.6,"body":"like, I'm still a junior Deming."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1745.52,"endTime":1749.6,"body":"Geek, but like she said, at one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1749.6,"endTime":1752.39,"body":"point, she said, you know, all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1749.6,"endTime":1752.39,"body":"the greats were there, we just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1752.39,"endTime":1755.81,"body":"shall take is Brian joyor grok"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1752.39,"endTime":1755.81,"body":"kiddo. So apparently, wherever"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1755.81,"endTime":1759.05,"body":"she was in her first thing, they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1755.81,"endTime":1759.05,"body":"were all in this, whatever, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1759.05,"endTime":1763.01,"body":"know, whatever sort of version"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1759.05,"endTime":1763.01,"body":"of her for days with damning or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1763.01,"endTime":1764.3,"body":"the clashes apparently, they"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1764.389,"endTime":1766.579,"body":"you know what they"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1764.389,"endTime":1766.579,"body":"would do just for people who"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1766.579,"endTime":1769.609,"body":"might be interested. There's a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1766.579,"endTime":1769.609,"body":"damning four day which is pretty"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1769.609,"endTime":1773.119,"body":"much taught by Deming himself"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1769.609,"endTime":1773.119,"body":"and with helpers, but then they"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1773.119,"endTime":1777.409,"body":"had they started to do these"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1773.119,"endTime":1777.409,"body":"Deming two day, I think there"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1777.409,"endTime":1780.019,"body":"are two and a half days and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1777.409,"endTime":1780.019,"body":"those ones they would have"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1780.019,"endTime":1785.989,"body":"Deming and Brian joiner and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1780.019,"endTime":1785.989,"body":"Peter Shoal days and one or two"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1785.989,"endTime":1792.199,"body":"other people maybe Bill shurkin"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1785.989,"endTime":1792.199,"body":"back and that Baker Yeah, um, so"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1792.229,"endTime":1796.879,"body":"there would be those Demings two"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1792.229,"endTime":1796.879,"body":"and a half days on it was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1796.879,"endTime":1800.779,"body":"largely like, you know, Peter"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1796.879,"endTime":1800.779,"body":"and Brian and these other People"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1800.809,"endTime":1804.289,"body":"speaking and Deming would speak"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1800.809,"endTime":1804.289,"body":"to, I think a big part of the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1804.289,"endTime":1808.339,"body":"reason they did it is as Deming"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1804.289,"endTime":1808.339,"body":"got older, it became a lot for"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1808.339,"endTime":1810.169,"body":"him to do those four days by"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1808.339,"endTime":1810.169,"body":"himself."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1810.68,"endTime":1812.99,"body":"Well, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1810.68,"endTime":1812.99,"body":"was gonna save the the Peter"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1812.99,"endTime":1815.3,"body":"Shelties. Because it does other"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1812.99,"endTime":1815.3,"body":"things. I definitely want to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1815.33,"endTime":1819.17,"body":"pick your brain on but I, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1815.33,"endTime":1819.17,"body":"know, like I said, I was just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1819.17,"endTime":1822.74,"body":"getting into Deming, and you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1819.17,"endTime":1822.74,"body":"know, that sort of last decade,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1822.74,"endTime":1826.82,"body":"right, if you will, and, and so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1822.74,"endTime":1826.82,"body":"I ran across that, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1826.82,"endTime":1829.16,"body":"Peter, salting spark, and I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1826.82,"endTime":1829.16,"body":"like, You're right, it was just,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1829.19,"endTime":1831.65,"body":"you know, oh, my God, everything"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1829.19,"endTime":1831.65,"body":"about this guy, and he did some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1831.68,"endTime":1837.14,"body":"research. And I found that he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1831.68,"endTime":1837.14,"body":"was just, he wrote a song like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1837.14,"endTime":1839.54,"body":"you know, I don't I think I said"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1837.14,"endTime":1839.54,"body":"this an email to you. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1839.84,"endTime":1843.26,"body":"literally, you know, my mother"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1839.84,"endTime":1843.26,"body":"would drag me to Catholic church"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1843.26,"endTime":1847.49,"body":"every Sunday. Right? And, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1843.26,"endTime":1847.49,"body":"one of my more pleasant memories"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1847.49,"endTime":1850.73,"body":"was a song called, they'll know"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1847.49,"endTime":1850.73,"body":"we are Christians by our love."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1851.36,"endTime":1854.72,"body":"And I found he wrote it, and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1851.36,"endTime":1854.72,"body":"was like, Oh, my goodness, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1854.72,"endTime":1857.84,"body":"have to reach out to this man."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1854.72,"endTime":1857.84,"body":"You know, I'm, I'm in love with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1857.84,"endTime":1861.41,"body":"Deming. He's got this book. He's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1857.84,"endTime":1861.41,"body":"a Deming disciple. And he wrote"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1861.41,"endTime":1864.8,"body":"this song, and but he had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1861.41,"endTime":1864.8,"body":"already been deceased. So I, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1864.8,"endTime":1868.13,"body":"feel like that was a miss for me"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1864.8,"endTime":1868.13,"body":"not to get you know, those"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1868.13,"endTime":1871.19,"body":"people, you know, sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1868.13,"endTime":1871.19,"body":"shortlist of people like, oh,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1871.19,"endTime":1873.65,"body":"boy, I wish I could have met"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1871.19,"endTime":1873.65,"body":"him. I mean, that just blew me"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1873.65,"endTime":1876.44,"body":"off. I doubt he would have but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1873.65,"endTime":1876.44,"body":"but I just, I was so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1876.44,"endTime":1878.78,"body":"disappointed because I was so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1876.44,"endTime":1878.78,"body":"excited about."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1879.619,"endTime":1883.339,"body":"Yeah, the, their"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1879.619,"endTime":1883.339,"body":"lot. I mean, Peter was really"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1883.339,"endTime":1885.739,"body":"brilliant. He was also one of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1883.339,"endTime":1885.739,"body":"the I mentioned that almost all"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1885.739,"endTime":1888.109,"body":"the people on the stage with"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1885.739,"endTime":1888.109,"body":"Deming, were statisticians. He"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1888.109,"endTime":1892.549,"body":"was, yeah, he was one of the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1888.109,"endTime":1892.549,"body":"few. Um, but yeah, he was, in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1892.549,"endTime":1899.509,"body":"addition to being really wise,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1892.549,"endTime":1899.509,"body":"on management ideas. He was just"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1899.509,"endTime":1903.769,"body":"a great person to be around. He"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1899.509,"endTime":1903.769,"body":"was super funny. He's a really"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1903.769,"endTime":1908.359,"body":"good writer, as the book showed,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1903.769,"endTime":1908.359,"body":"he was the person who I really"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1908.359,"endTime":1917.269,"body":"started to know really well. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1908.359,"endTime":1917.269,"body":"I did. I like created his"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1917.269,"endTime":1922.159,"body":"website and did his website. On"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1917.269,"endTime":1922.159,"body":"when I was doing that, actually,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1922.159,"endTime":1925.999,"body":"I asked him about, they will"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1922.159,"endTime":1925.999,"body":"know, we're Christians by our"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1925.999,"endTime":1929.629,"body":"love. And I said, That's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1925.999,"endTime":1929.629,"body":"awesome. Let's include that on"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1929.629,"endTime":1933.319,"body":"the website. And he was like,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1929.629,"endTime":1933.319,"body":"no, let's not. And I said, why"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1933.319,"endTime":1937.729,"body":"not? And he said, what? I just"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1933.319,"endTime":1937.729,"body":"get frustrated. And people know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1937.759,"endTime":1940.429,"body":"because he was a priest when he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1937.759,"endTime":1940.429,"body":"wrote that, right? And he said,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1940.459,"endTime":1944.599,"body":"people then expect me to behave"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1940.459,"endTime":1944.599,"body":"in a certain way. And Peter was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1944.599,"endTime":1950.209,"body":"funny, and he was somewhat crude"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1944.599,"endTime":1950.209,"body":"when he was funny. And he said,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1950.509,"endTime":1955.309,"body":"people then take it, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1950.509,"endTime":1955.309,"body":"that, Oh, he shouldn't do. It's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1955.309,"endTime":1960.169,"body":"already he was pushing it. I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1955.309,"endTime":1960.169,"body":"think he has a swear word or two"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1960.199,"endTime":1963.649,"body":"in the leaders handbook, which"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1960.199,"endTime":1963.649,"body":"was published by McGraw Hill,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1963.649,"endTime":1966.229,"body":"which was a big publisher, I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1963.649,"endTime":1966.229,"body":"think there was a big push back"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1966.229,"endTime":1969.589,"body":"on that. I could be wrong. Maybe"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1966.229,"endTime":1969.589,"body":"they push back and took it out."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1969.649,"endTime":1973.609,"body":"But I think he fought for it and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1969.649,"endTime":1973.609,"body":"kept it in there. Um, so I had"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1973.609,"endTime":1976.489,"body":"said, Man, I just think that's a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1973.609,"endTime":1976.489,"body":"cool thing. He's like, Well, why"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1976.489,"endTime":1979.999,"body":"do you think it's so cool? Well,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1976.489,"endTime":1979.999,"body":"one thing is, it shows this"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1981.169,"endTime":1985.519,"body":"range, it shows something that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1981.169,"endTime":1985.519,"body":"is great. That's completely"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1985.519,"endTime":1987.739,"body":"separate from this. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1988.25,"endTime":1991.34,"body":"for two, because I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1988.25,"endTime":1991.34,"body":"mean, think about me, I'm 62"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1991.34,"endTime":1995.57,"body":"years old. I mean, that song has"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1991.34,"endTime":1995.57,"body":"an impact on my life, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1995.6,"endTime":1997.61,"body":"right. That's the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1995.6,"endTime":1997.61,"body":"thing. I mean, if it had been"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1997.61,"endTime":1999.86,"body":"just been some song I'd never"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1997.61,"endTime":1999.86,"body":"heard of, or there was sort of,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2001.18,"endTime":2005.98,"body":"it ties so directly to one of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2001.18,"endTime":2005.98,"body":"the core principles in Deming,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2005.98,"endTime":2009.22,"body":"but and this is one that Peter"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2005.98,"endTime":2009.22,"body":"was very strong with, is that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2009.22,"endTime":2013.72,"body":"respect for people? There is,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2009.22,"endTime":2013.72,"body":"you know, I mean, that to me, if"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2013.72,"endTime":2018.91,"body":"there's any core to Deming,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2013.72,"endTime":2018.91,"body":"videos, the respect for people"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2018.94,"endTime":2024.01,"body":"and the idea that why Deming is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2018.94,"endTime":2024.01,"body":"doing this Deming isn't doing"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2024.01,"endTime":2030.07,"body":"this in a sort of business"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2024.01,"endTime":2030.07,"body":"school idea of how can we have"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2030.28,"endTime":2033.58,"body":"GE make more money, right,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2030.28,"endTime":2033.58,"body":"Deming was really doing this"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2033.58,"endTime":2038.02,"body":"stuff about how to make people's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2033.58,"endTime":2038.02,"body":"lives better. One of the things"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2038.02,"endTime":2043.09,"body":"the very first blog post I wrote"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2038.02,"endTime":2043.09,"body":"for the Deming Institute blog, I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2043.09,"endTime":2050.95,"body":"talked about his, his sort of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2043.09,"endTime":2050.95,"body":"aim with his life and now"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2051.91,"endTime":2056.35,"body":"without looking it up, I can't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2051.91,"endTime":2056.35,"body":"say it from memory, but it's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2056.35,"endTime":2065.14,"body":"something like a peace,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2056.35,"endTime":2065.14,"body":"prosperity and something the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2065.2,"endTime":2069.49,"body":"like, people should remember."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2065.2,"endTime":2069.49,"body":"Deming grew up during the Great"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2069.49,"endTime":2073.57,"body":"Depression, right? And World War"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2069.49,"endTime":2073.57,"body":"Two, and he went to Japan after"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2073.57,"endTime":2078.07,"body":"World War Two when it was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2073.57,"endTime":2078.07,"body":"decimated. Deming understood the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2078.07,"endTime":2085.9,"body":"vital importance of economic"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2078.07,"endTime":2085.9,"body":"wellbeing to people. And in the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2085.9,"endTime":2088.42,"body":"United States. It's really easy"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2085.9,"endTime":2088.42,"body":"for most of us who were"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2088.42,"endTime":2091.45,"body":"listening to podcasts about"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2088.42,"endTime":2091.45,"body":"management to completely forget"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2091.48,"endTime":2096.04,"body":"that concept. The idea I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2091.48,"endTime":2096.04,"body":"we might have trouble you know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2096.04,"endTime":2100.27,"body":"keeping our 3000 square foot"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2096.04,"endTime":2100.27,"body":"house or whatever, but you We do"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2100.27,"endTime":2105.04,"body":"not have trouble getting a, you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2100.27,"endTime":2105.04,"body":"know, food to put on the table."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2106.12,"endTime":2109.84,"body":"And Deming went through a whole"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2106.12,"endTime":2109.84,"body":"long time of the Great"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2109.84,"endTime":2115.0,"body":"Depression and World War Two and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2109.84,"endTime":2115.0,"body":"after World War Two in Japan, of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2115.03,"endTime":2122.02,"body":"just seeing how much economic"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2115.03,"endTime":2122.02,"body":"prosperity made a difference."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2122.23,"endTime":2128.05,"body":"And that is a huge part of what"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2122.23,"endTime":2128.05,"body":"he was doing and what he was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2128.05,"endTime":2132.58,"body":"doing in Japan. And over time,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2128.05,"endTime":2132.58,"body":"by the time we're talking about"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2132.58,"endTime":2137.11,"body":"the 1980s, or 1990s, that had"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2132.58,"endTime":2137.11,"body":"sort of evolved, I guess, in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2137.11,"endTime":2141.34,"body":"Maslow's hierarchy of needs to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2137.11,"endTime":2141.34,"body":"Okay, look, we got enough"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2141.34,"endTime":2144.82,"body":"prosperity to get food on"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2141.34,"endTime":2144.82,"body":"people's plates, but how about"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2144.82,"endTime":2149.86,"body":"giving them some purpose for"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2144.82,"endTime":2149.86,"body":"their life? Right, and that sort"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2149.86,"endTime":2153.73,"body":"of string was always there"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2149.86,"endTime":2153.73,"body":"forgetting how to make people's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2153.73,"endTime":2158.5,"body":"lives better. And Peter, of all"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2153.73,"endTime":2158.5,"body":"the getting accolades, I would"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2158.5,"endTime":2163.54,"body":"say, Peter, was the most sort of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2158.5,"endTime":2163.54,"body":"focused on those kind of things."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2163.69,"endTime":2166.51,"body":"Yeah, no, I, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2163.69,"endTime":2166.51,"body":"know, like a whole nother thread"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2166.51,"endTime":2170.74,"body":"about like, how he, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2166.51,"endTime":2170.74,"body":"clearly he was humanist, right,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2170.74,"endTime":2173.2,"body":"like he cared about the human"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2170.74,"endTime":2173.2,"body":"condition, there's no question"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2173.2,"endTime":2176.77,"body":"about it, I think you can almost"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2173.2,"endTime":2176.77,"body":"watch an evolution of, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2176.77,"endTime":2180.07,"body":"starting with Hawthorn and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2176.77,"endTime":2180.07,"body":"seeing the sort of the best in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2180.07,"endTime":2183.04,"body":"the worst of Hawthorn. Right."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2180.07,"endTime":2183.04,"body":"You know, in some ways, Hawthorn"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2183.04,"endTime":2187.84,"body":"was this beautiful sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2183.04,"endTime":2187.84,"body":"immigrant stream, and in some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2187.84,"endTime":2190.81,"body":"way, and but the, in the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2187.84,"endTime":2190.81,"body":"factory, it was, you know, it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2190.81,"endTime":2194.77,"body":"was, you know, a sweatshop as"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2190.81,"endTime":2194.77,"body":"you can get, you know, and I,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2194.77,"endTime":2199.0,"body":"you know, I've read, what's his"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2194.77,"endTime":2199.0,"body":"face? Habel stems directly,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2199.0,"endTime":2202.42,"body":"right. Yeah. And like, Oh, my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2199.0,"endTime":2202.42,"body":"goodness, like, you want to get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2202.42,"endTime":2206.68,"body":"a real understanding of what he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2202.42,"endTime":2206.68,"body":"was witnessing then. You know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2206.68,"endTime":2211.21,"body":"that sort of post World War Two,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2206.68,"endTime":2211.21,"body":"Japan. And you know, so I, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2211.21,"endTime":2214.18,"body":"know, I think there's this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2211.21,"endTime":2214.18,"body":"beautiful, there's a, I guess,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2214.21,"endTime":2218.14,"body":"you must know, you probably"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2214.21,"endTime":2218.14,"body":"know, everybody. So Ron Mon. Oh,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2218.14,"endTime":2222.52,"body":"yeah. Yeah, he has a whole nice"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2218.14,"endTime":2222.52,"body":"sort of thread of, like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2222.52,"endTime":2226.21,"body":"know, people sort of look at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2222.52,"endTime":2226.21,"body":"Deming, so he was different at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2226.21,"endTime":2230.98,"body":"this point. And no one says, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2226.21,"endTime":2230.98,"body":"know, I think he even makes a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2230.98,"endTime":2233.44,"body":"joke, or somebody asked me, Hey,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2230.98,"endTime":2233.44,"body":"you know, last time I was at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2233.44,"endTime":2235.75,"body":"your seminar, you know, you said"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2233.44,"endTime":2235.75,"body":"this, and now you're saying"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2235.75,"endTime":2238.45,"body":"this, and he said, I could"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2235.75,"endTime":2238.45,"body":"picture in his deep voice"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2238.45,"endTime":2242.44,"body":"saying, you know, I will never"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2238.45,"endTime":2242.44,"body":"apologize for learning, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2242.44,"endTime":2243.31,"body":"know, right."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2243.579,"endTime":2247.389,"body":"Totally. Yeah. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2243.579,"endTime":2247.389,"body":"that's the one of the things."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2247.419,"endTime":2250.239,"body":"The other thing I mentioned in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2247.419,"endTime":2250.239,"body":"that first gaming Institute blog"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2250.239,"endTime":2255.099,"body":"post was that, look, this stuff"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2250.239,"endTime":2255.099,"body":"keeps evolving, getting himself"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2255.099,"endTime":2258.399,"body":"would have evolved that, like,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2255.099,"endTime":2258.399,"body":"as I write this blog, I'm gonna"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2258.399,"endTime":2261.969,"body":"be quoting him and tying myself"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2258.399,"endTime":2261.969,"body":"but also my personal opinions"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2261.999,"endTime":2266.919,"body":"will come through. And that is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2261.999,"endTime":2266.919,"body":"exactly as it should be. It's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2266.919,"endTime":2270.399,"body":"not that we're trying to lock"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2266.919,"endTime":2270.399,"body":"this stuff down, as it was in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2270.399,"endTime":2275.169,"body":"the year 2000. We're trying to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2270.399,"endTime":2275.169,"body":"figure out how do we evolve"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2275.169,"endTime":2280.689,"body":"these ideas to fit in the modern"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2275.169,"endTime":2280.689,"body":"organization?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2281.71,"endTime":2285.01,"body":"You know, I just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2281.71,"endTime":2285.01,"body":"wrote I wrote something that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2285.01,"endTime":2287.56,"body":"they sent me again, I agree, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2285.01,"endTime":2287.56,"body":"think that's the whole point,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2287.56,"endTime":2290.29,"body":"right? Like, I mean, there's,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2287.56,"endTime":2290.29,"body":"it's this evolution of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2290.29,"endTime":2293.05,"body":"aggregate of all these things."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2290.29,"endTime":2293.05,"body":"So when there's these debates,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2293.05,"endTime":2296.92,"body":"the Deming do that. I of course,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2293.05,"endTime":2296.92,"body":"do this to Duran do that. It's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2296.92,"endTime":2300.46,"body":"sort of nonsense, nonsense,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2296.92,"endTime":2300.46,"body":"right? Because all this is a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2300.46,"endTime":2305.44,"body":"winding road. And it just, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2300.46,"endTime":2305.44,"body":"noticed, you know, I guess it is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2305.44,"endTime":2309.52,"body":"a two fold question here. But I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2305.44,"endTime":2309.52,"body":"noticed that a lot of people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2309.52,"endTime":2315.28,"body":"sort of purposely don't give"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2309.52,"endTime":2315.28,"body":"Deming attribution. Now. I love"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2315.28,"endTime":2317.77,"body":"Deming, I'd like fell in love"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2315.28,"endTime":2317.77,"body":"with him. When I first learned"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2317.77,"endTime":2320.38,"body":"about him, it's been a journey"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2317.77,"endTime":2320.38,"body":"of learning more and more about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2320.38,"endTime":2323.2,"body":"him. But I don't sit here and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2320.38,"endTime":2323.2,"body":"say, Well, you know, without"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2323.2,"endTime":2326.65,"body":"Deming, you would have had Japan"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2323.2,"endTime":2326.65,"body":"success, so that, you know, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2326.65,"endTime":2332.23,"body":"know, because it's, it's, it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2326.65,"endTime":2332.23,"body":"takes a lot of people. But there"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2332.23,"endTime":2336.04,"body":"seems to be sometimes this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2332.23,"endTime":2336.04,"body":"backlash against me and like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2336.04,"endTime":2340.81,"body":"one, for example is, um, well,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2336.04,"endTime":2340.81,"body":"there's parts of the lean"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2340.81,"endTime":2345.67,"body":"community that literally just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2340.81,"endTime":2345.67,"body":"act like he never existed. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2345.67,"endTime":2350.29,"body":"then there's parts of like that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2345.67,"endTime":2350.29,"body":"even the just in time, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2350.29,"endTime":2354.1,"body":"and, you know, I mean, clearly"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2350.29,"endTime":2354.1,"body":"that's give attribution to touch"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2354.13,"endTime":2356.92,"body":"on on just in time,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2354.13,"endTime":2356.92,"body":"unquestionably. But by the way,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2356.92,"endTime":2359.8,"body":"he got that from Charles"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2356.92,"endTime":2359.8,"body":"Saunders from Piggly Wiggly,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2359.83,"endTime":2363.37,"body":"right. You know, in some ways,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2359.83,"endTime":2363.37,"body":"you could say for even Adam"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2363.37,"endTime":2368.23,"body":"Smith and Ford created these"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2363.37,"endTime":2368.23,"body":"things that that flew, but you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2368.29,"endTime":2372.82,"body":"You very rarely hear an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2368.29,"endTime":2372.82,"body":"attribution of Deming and I, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2372.82,"endTime":2375.91,"body":"know, I went back for the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2372.82,"endTime":2375.91,"body":"podcasts that I you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2375.91,"endTime":2379.27,"body":"reread the hawk on transcripts"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2375.91,"endTime":2379.27,"body":"that's on your blog, right?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2380.35,"endTime":2382.84,"body":"Because I hadn't read it in a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2380.35,"endTime":2382.84,"body":"while and in there, like there's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2382.84,"endTime":2385.81,"body":"a whole set of paragraph where"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2382.84,"endTime":2385.81,"body":"like, if that's not just in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2385.81,"endTime":2392.59,"body":"time, in 1950, right, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2385.81,"endTime":2392.59,"body":"inventory. And from what I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2392.59,"endTime":2397.63,"body":"understand those courses that he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2392.59,"endTime":2397.63,"body":"taught, but even DRAM said this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2397.63,"endTime":2401.2,"body":"those courses that he taught in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2397.63,"endTime":2401.2,"body":"Japan were the same courses,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2401.2,"endTime":2404.2,"body":"Duran made a comment that he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2401.2,"endTime":2404.2,"body":"just dusted them off from the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2404.2,"endTime":2407.74,"body":"courses he taught at Stanford."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2404.2,"endTime":2407.74,"body":"So that means he must have been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2407.74,"endTime":2412.57,"body":"talking in the late 40s or early"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2407.74,"endTime":2412.57,"body":"40s. About these concepts"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2412.6,"endTime":2412.96,"body":"anyway."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2412.99,"endTime":2416.77,"body":"Yeah, I think I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2412.99,"endTime":2416.77,"body":"mean, one of the things, I can't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2416.86,"endTime":2420.04,"body":"keep it all straight in my head"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2416.86,"endTime":2420.04,"body":"the way that Deming could, but"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2420.04,"endTime":2424.09,"body":"Deming would give attribution"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2420.04,"endTime":2424.09,"body":"for almost every one of his"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2424.09,"endTime":2430.93,"body":"ideas to other people, right."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2424.09,"endTime":2430.93,"body":"And his, the only thing I don't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2430.93,"endTime":2434.77,"body":"remember him ever attributing is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2430.93,"endTime":2434.77,"body":"the collection of the whole"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2434.77,"endTime":2439.84,"body":"thing into a system. But the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2434.77,"endTime":2439.84,"body":"Yeah, I mean, he would be able"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2439.84,"endTime":2443.89,"body":"to constantly rattle off who had"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2439.84,"endTime":2443.89,"body":"this idea and who built up this"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2443.89,"endTime":2449.29,"body":"little idea. I've talked about"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2443.89,"endTime":2449.29,"body":"this, again, in blog posts or to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2449.59,"endTime":2453.97,"body":"the idea, the reason why I think"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2449.59,"endTime":2453.97,"body":"it's important for people to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2453.97,"endTime":2457.93,"body":"understand where these things"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2453.97,"endTime":2457.93,"body":"come from, is, so they can do a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2457.93,"endTime":2462.55,"body":"better job of managing, it"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2457.93,"endTime":2462.55,"body":"doesn't matter to get, in my"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2462.55,"endTime":2466.06,"body":"opinion to give Deming his do"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2462.55,"endTime":2466.06,"body":"just because he deserves to get"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2466.06,"endTime":2469.87,"body":"his due. But if you don't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2466.06,"endTime":2469.87,"body":"understand that many of these"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2469.93,"endTime":2474.16,"body":"ideas came from Deming, you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2469.93,"endTime":2474.16,"body":"don't learn to look at Deming"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2474.19,"endTime":2477.55,"body":"and see what else is there is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2474.19,"endTime":2477.55,"body":"one of the things I loved about"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2477.55,"endTime":2481.93,"body":"working with software developers"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2477.55,"endTime":2481.93,"body":"more than any other group by"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2481.93,"endTime":2488.14,"body":"far, they went and found Deming"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2481.93,"endTime":2488.14,"body":"on their own, they heard about"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2488.14,"endTime":2491.17,"body":"these things like agile, and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2488.14,"endTime":2491.17,"body":"they would dig into it in the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2491.17,"endTime":2494.65,"body":"same way that they dig into code"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2491.17,"endTime":2494.65,"body":"defined, you know, what's really"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2494.65,"endTime":2502.69,"body":"going on. And they are the ones"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2494.65,"endTime":2502.69,"body":"who I think, have the best"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2502.69,"endTime":2506.74,"body":"understanding and say the most"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2502.69,"endTime":2506.74,"body":"interesting things all talk"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2506.74,"endTime":2511.0,"body":"about Deming, and all sorts of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2506.74,"endTime":2511.0,"body":"other people too. And they have"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2511.0,"endTime":2515.47,"body":"different levels of how much"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2511.0,"endTime":2515.47,"body":"they care about Deming the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2515.47,"endTime":2520.75,"body":"person compared to, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2515.47,"endTime":2520.75,"body":"several of the ideas that come"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2520.75,"endTime":2529.0,"body":"up, but, um, they had that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2520.75,"endTime":2529.0,"body":"interest to go learn from a sort"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2529.0,"endTime":2534.1,"body":"of a deeper source. And then by"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2529.0,"endTime":2534.1,"body":"doing that, they deepen their"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2534.1,"endTime":2537.94,"body":"understanding of however they're"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2534.1,"endTime":2537.94,"body":"trying to implement agile, one"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2537.94,"endTime":2541.21,"body":"of the things that I get"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2537.94,"endTime":2541.21,"body":"disappointed in all those"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2541.21,"endTime":2547.69,"body":"software developers though is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2541.21,"endTime":2547.69,"body":"I'm almost unit. If they"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2548.08,"endTime":2552.64,"body":"complain about something, it's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2548.08,"endTime":2552.64,"body":"that, oh, well, Deming is for"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2552.79,"endTime":2558.58,"body":"the manufacturing floor. And you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2552.79,"endTime":2558.58,"body":"can't put what I do. I in line"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2558.58,"endTime":2563.05,"body":"with what those unthinking"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2558.58,"endTime":2563.05,"body":"robots in the factory do. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2563.05,"endTime":2565.66,"body":"it's like, Look, buddy, the same"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2563.05,"endTime":2565.66,"body":"way that you're mad at your"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2565.66,"endTime":2570.76,"body":"management for treating you like"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2565.66,"endTime":2570.76,"body":"a cog in a machine is exactly"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2570.76,"endTime":2572.92,"body":"what Deming told the managers in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2570.76,"endTime":2572.92,"body":"the fan."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2573.67,"endTime":2576.73,"body":"This is so good."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2573.67,"endTime":2576.73,"body":"Yeah. You've you've probably"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2576.73,"endTime":2580.72,"body":"haven't heard my rants because"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2576.73,"endTime":2580.72,"body":"I, I live this all the all the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2580.72,"endTime":2584.26,"body":"time, right? Because from my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2580.72,"endTime":2584.26,"body":"worldview of software"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2584.26,"endTime":2588.34,"body":"development, most has been born"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2584.26,"endTime":2588.34,"body":"in the open source community,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2588.64,"endTime":2592.39,"body":"you know, building web scale"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2588.64,"endTime":2592.39,"body":"infrastructure, working with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2592.39,"endTime":2594.64,"body":"companies that are building"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2592.39,"endTime":2594.64,"body":"those types of infrastructure."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2595.54,"endTime":2600.49,"body":"Udemy is more used for quotes"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2595.54,"endTime":2600.49,"body":"and like, yeah, we are we saying"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2600.49,"endTime":2604.24,"body":"DevOps, like almost every"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2600.49,"endTime":2604.24,"body":"presentation has a Deming quote"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2604.24,"endTime":2607.39,"body":"in it, but like, do you really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2604.24,"endTime":2607.39,"body":"listen to him? And I see very"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2607.39,"endTime":2612.67,"body":"little use of like, the Socratic"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2607.39,"endTime":2612.67,"body":"control or in the thing, I get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2612.67,"endTime":2616.57,"body":"that same thing, always and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2612.67,"endTime":2616.57,"body":"from really prominent people in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2616.57,"endTime":2621.19,"body":"like the sort of my world where"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2616.57,"endTime":2621.19,"body":"they'll say, you know, Udemy is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2621.19,"endTime":2625.93,"body":"great, but it only to a point"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2621.19,"endTime":2625.93,"body":"because you can't really map on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2625.93,"endTime":2629.65,"body":"a manufacturing economy ideas to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2625.93,"endTime":2629.65,"body":"knowledge economy ideas. I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2629.65,"endTime":2635.11,"body":"like, That's ridiculous. You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2629.65,"endTime":2635.11,"body":"know, because yes, you can in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2635.11,"endTime":2636.25,"body":"the, you know, the principles."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2636.28,"endTime":2638.83,"body":"And because that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2636.28,"endTime":2638.83,"body":"wasn't what he wasn't trying to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2638.83,"endTime":2640.96,"body":"come up with something that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2638.83,"endTime":2640.96,"body":"would make a manufacturing"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2640.96,"endTime":2646.36,"body":"plant. He was trying to manage"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2640.96,"endTime":2646.36,"body":"people. So it's like the it's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2646.36,"endTime":2649.51,"body":"one of the things. Another"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2646.36,"endTime":2649.51,"body":"complaint against Deming that I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2649.51,"endTime":2654.04,"body":"think is somewhat accurate, is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2649.51,"endTime":2654.04,"body":"he didn't give you a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2654.04,"endTime":2657.79,"body":"prescription. That's right."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2654.04,"endTime":2657.79,"body":"Well, the reason the fact that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2657.79,"endTime":2660.31,"body":"he didn't give you a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2657.79,"endTime":2660.31,"body":"prescription is why it can work"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2660.31,"endTime":2662.65,"body":"so well in software development,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2660.31,"endTime":2662.65,"body":"just like it worked in the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2662.65,"endTime":2666.37,"body":"factory floor. Because it isn't,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2662.65,"endTime":2666.37,"body":"well, you should stand eight"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2666.37,"endTime":2669.43,"body":"feet away from the nearest"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2666.37,"endTime":2669.43,"body":"person or anything. It's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2669.43,"endTime":2673.33,"body":"concepts about looking at the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2669.43,"endTime":2673.33,"body":"system, finding how to improve"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2673.33,"endTime":2676.75,"body":"the system, doing Plan, Do"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2673.33,"endTime":2676.75,"body":"Study, Act, experiment, pay"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2676.75,"endTime":2680.14,"body":"attention to the people doing"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2676.75,"endTime":2680.14,"body":"the work. It is funny because I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2680.14,"endTime":2682.69,"body":"mean, the people that will"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2680.14,"endTime":2682.69,"body":"complain about Deming, being"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2682.72,"endTime":2686.98,"body":"manufacturing and not for us,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2682.72,"endTime":2686.98,"body":"are exactly the same people that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2686.98,"endTime":2690.16,"body":"are complaining. Their"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2686.98,"endTime":2690.16,"body":"complaints are exactly what"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2690.16,"endTime":2692.8,"body":"Deming would say. You know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2690.16,"endTime":2692.8,"body":"they're not listening to the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2692.8,"endTime":2695.74,"body":"people that do the world. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2692.8,"endTime":2695.74,"body":"like that's what Deming would"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2695.74,"endTime":2696.07,"body":"say."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2697.0,"endTime":2700.84,"body":"The other thing I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2697.0,"endTime":2700.84,"body":"sort of you know, I Years ago, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2700.84,"endTime":2703.57,"body":"read Toyota supply chain, right?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2700.84,"endTime":2703.57,"body":"And then you know if you're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2703.57,"endTime":2706.84,"body":"familiar with the four wheels of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2703.57,"endTime":2706.84,"body":"learning, right, and I think one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2706.84,"endTime":2710.26,"body":"or two places where a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2706.84,"endTime":2710.26,"body":"these people talk about you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2710.29,"endTime":2712.99,"body":"like, to your point, I think you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2710.29,"endTime":2712.99,"body":"made this earlier, which is a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2712.99,"endTime":2715.45,"body":"lot of people say, Well, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2712.99,"endTime":2715.45,"body":"can't Well, first off, the thing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2715.48,"endTime":2717.64,"body":"will always be probably more"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2715.48,"endTime":2717.64,"body":"anything is people just say,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2717.94,"endTime":2721.03,"body":"Deming just focused on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2717.94,"endTime":2721.03,"body":"statistics, you know, and, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2721.03,"endTime":2723.79,"body":"know, there's like, and other"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2721.03,"endTime":2723.79,"body":"people focused on management,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2723.79,"endTime":2726.13,"body":"like, there's actually a bunch"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2723.79,"endTime":2726.13,"body":"of stuff out there, where they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2726.13,"endTime":2729.31,"body":"talk about Taran focused on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2726.13,"endTime":2729.31,"body":"management. And Deming only"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2729.31,"endTime":2732.64,"body":"focused on statistics like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2729.31,"endTime":2732.64,"body":"Okay, what part of Deming did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2732.64,"endTime":2737.47,"body":"you not read? But, but the thing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2732.64,"endTime":2737.47,"body":"that like the the people in, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2737.47,"endTime":2740.62,"body":"know, sort of the DevOps, or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2737.47,"endTime":2740.62,"body":"agile or even sort of Lean"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2740.62,"endTime":2744.07,"body":"software development communities"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2740.62,"endTime":2744.07,"body":"will say things like, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2744.07,"endTime":2747.67,"body":"problem you have with variation"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2744.07,"endTime":2747.67,"body":"is you can't control variation"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2747.7,"endTime":2752.23,"body":"in sort of ideation. And I say,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2747.7,"endTime":2752.23,"body":"Well, you know, there's a longer"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2752.23,"endTime":2754.87,"body":"discussion, I just had this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2752.23,"endTime":2754.87,"body":"thing with Jean Kim Parker's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2754.87,"endTime":2758.56,"body":"where I tried to explain if you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2754.87,"endTime":2758.56,"body":"listen to or you read terms by"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2758.56,"endTime":2761.29,"body":"chain, he talks about the four"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2758.56,"endTime":2761.29,"body":"vs. Like, there's velocity,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2761.29,"endTime":2764.77,"body":"there's visibility, but then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2761.29,"endTime":2764.77,"body":"there's variety in his"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2764.77,"endTime":2768.16,"body":"variability. And I think what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2764.77,"endTime":2768.16,"body":"most people I think they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2768.16,"endTime":2774.61,"body":"conflate the difference between"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2768.16,"endTime":2774.61,"body":"variety and variation. Right?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2774.82,"endTime":2778.84,"body":"You know, because variety, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2774.82,"endTime":2778.84,"body":"so like, in those ideas, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2778.84,"endTime":2782.59,"body":"variety is about Yes, expanse, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2778.84,"endTime":2782.59,"body":"think it's more like the design"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2782.59,"endTime":2785.71,"body":"of experiments. You know, it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2782.59,"endTime":2785.71,"body":"Taguchi if you know, I'm sure"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2785.71,"endTime":2790.06,"body":"you're familiar with him, as"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2785.71,"endTime":2790.06,"body":"well. Right. Where his was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2790.06,"endTime":2792.58,"body":"variation? And then this is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2790.06,"endTime":2792.58,"body":"another question I wanted to ask"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2792.58,"endTime":2797.05,"body":"you to. We're variation is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2792.58,"endTime":2797.05,"body":"people, really smart people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2797.14,"endTime":2802.51,"body":"completely. Just blow it when"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2797.14,"endTime":2802.51,"body":"they try to explain statistical"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2802.51,"endTime":2804.88,"body":"process control? I've heard some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2802.51,"endTime":2804.88,"body":"of the most brilliant people I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2804.88,"endTime":2807.46,"body":"know, say things like, Oh, yes,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2804.88,"endTime":2807.46,"body":"this brush control, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2807.46,"endTime":2811.03,"body":"it's not that useful. Because"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2807.46,"endTime":2811.03,"body":"it's a, it's either an anomaly."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2812.08,"endTime":2817.81,"body":"Or it's not. Like, yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2812.08,"endTime":2817.81,"body":"not the way I interpret, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2817.81,"endTime":2820.75,"body":"know, common cause or a special"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2817.81,"endTime":2820.75,"body":"cause. It's just, you know, sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2820.75,"endTime":2825.85,"body":"of a signal. And special cause."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2820.75,"endTime":2825.85,"body":"I mean, common cause is noise."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2826.06,"endTime":2828.85,"body":"Like yet. That's not exactly. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2826.06,"endTime":2828.85,"body":"mean, there's a whole body of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2828.85,"endTime":2833.59,"body":"like, you know, nuclear power"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2828.85,"endTime":2833.59,"body":"plants that are running. Not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2834.07,"endTime":2836.83,"body":"that way. I mean, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2834.07,"endTime":2836.83,"body":"I just ranted for a while. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2836.92,"endTime":2837.46,"body":"what are your thoughts?"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2837.49,"endTime":2841.0,"body":"Yeah, no, the, the,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2837.49,"endTime":2841.0,"body":"there is a huge problem with"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2841.27,"endTime":2845.08,"body":"people like to just take"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2841.27,"endTime":2845.08,"body":"anything and stick it in a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2845.08,"endTime":2848.77,"body":"little cubby hole. So they don't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2845.08,"endTime":2848.77,"body":"have to think about it very"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2848.77,"endTime":2853.24,"body":"much. But it's like Deming did"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2848.77,"endTime":2853.24,"body":"talk about using data sensibly."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2853.42,"endTime":2859.27,"body":"But it really is not a big part"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2853.42,"endTime":2859.27,"body":"of what he talked about, it was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2859.27,"endTime":2864.13,"body":"a big part of what he focused on"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2859.27,"endTime":2864.13,"body":"in the 1980s. Because companies"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2864.13,"endTime":2867.1,"body":"were doing such a poor job of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2864.13,"endTime":2867.1,"body":"using data that was a really"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2867.1,"endTime":2872.56,"body":"easy way to get wins was just"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2867.1,"endTime":2872.56,"body":"pay attention to data you. Um,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2872.77,"endTime":2878.98,"body":"but yeah, I mean, it is not the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2872.77,"endTime":2878.98,"body":"sort of core of what he's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2878.98,"endTime":2881.53,"body":"talking about it much more"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2878.98,"endTime":2881.53,"body":"respect for people and pay"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2881.53,"endTime":2884.2,"body":"attention to those people. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2881.53,"endTime":2884.2,"body":"the way that you can be much"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2884.2,"endTime":2888.88,"body":"more effective in paying"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2884.2,"endTime":2888.88,"body":"attention to those people and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2888.88,"endTime":2893.29,"body":"the systems is by using sensible"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2888.88,"endTime":2893.29,"body":"data to understand it's like you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2893.29,"endTime":2897.01,"body":"said, it is more difficult to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2893.29,"endTime":2897.01,"body":"come up with easy examples in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2897.01,"endTime":2900.7,"body":"something like software"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2897.01,"endTime":2900.7,"body":"development, then a factory"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2900.7,"endTime":2904.57,"body":"floor, but there are plenty of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2900.7,"endTime":2904.57,"body":"places where getting an"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2904.57,"endTime":2908.53,"body":"understanding of the system and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2904.57,"endTime":2908.53,"body":"putting some processes into"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2908.53,"endTime":2913.69,"body":"place. So software, coders will"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2908.53,"endTime":2913.69,"body":"get mad when people talk about"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2913.69,"endTime":2916.48,"body":"processes, because they're used"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2913.69,"endTime":2916.48,"body":"to all sorts of asinine"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2916.48,"endTime":2919.96,"body":"processes that the organization"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2916.48,"endTime":2919.96,"body":"put in place that make their job"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2919.96,"endTime":2925.69,"body":"very difficult. But when what"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2919.96,"endTime":2925.69,"body":"process standardization is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2925.69,"endTime":2930.13,"body":"supposed to do is to make it"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2925.69,"endTime":2930.13,"body":"easier to do work. So something"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2930.13,"endTime":2937.36,"body":"like I using I'm testing system"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2930.13,"endTime":2937.36,"body":"in your software development so"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2937.36,"endTime":2941.62,"body":"that when you make updates to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2937.36,"endTime":2941.62,"body":"the code, it's tested to see if"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2941.62,"endTime":2945.73,"body":"there's some problem before you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2941.62,"endTime":2945.73,"body":"deploy it to the deploy to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2945.73,"endTime":2950.38,"body":"production. That is a process"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2945.73,"endTime":2950.38,"body":"improvement that makes the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2950.38,"endTime":2954.7,"body":"process more stable. It doesn't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2950.38,"endTime":2954.7,"body":"make you any less able to be"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2954.7,"endTime":2957.91,"body":"creative or anything else. In"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2954.7,"endTime":2957.91,"body":"fact, that makes it way easier"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2957.91,"endTime":2961.87,"body":"to be creative because you have"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2957.91,"endTime":2961.87,"body":"confidence that your change"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2961.87,"endTime":2964.63,"body":"isn't going to affect weird"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2961.87,"endTime":2964.63,"body":"things in ways that you don't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2964.63,"endTime":2965.08,"body":"understand."}]}