{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":8.849,"endTime":12.449,"body":"Hello again, John"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":8.849,"endTime":12.449,"body":"Willis. The Deming, profound"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":12.449,"endTime":16.589,"body":"Deming podcast. This is part two"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":12.449,"endTime":16.589,"body":"of the John Hunter, curious cat."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":17.069,"endTime":21.719,"body":"So we're just kind of, I just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":17.069,"endTime":21.719,"body":"split it a little bit more than"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":21.719,"endTime":24.809,"body":"halfway. So again here, hope you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":21.719,"endTime":24.809,"body":"really enjoy it. Let me know if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":24.809,"endTime":27.899,"body":"you have any feedback. All"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":24.809,"endTime":27.899,"body":"right, I really enjoyed this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":27.899,"endTime":32.219,"body":"podcast. This episode, I learned"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":27.899,"endTime":32.219,"body":"so much. So I hope you will,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":32.219,"endTime":32.939,"body":"too. Thank you."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":34.559,"endTime":37.469,"body":"That's the sort of history of my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":34.559,"endTime":37.469,"body":"career over the last 20 years,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":37.469,"endTime":40.439,"body":"which is, you know, helping"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":37.469,"endTime":40.439,"body":"people automate the building of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":40.439,"endTime":44.189,"body":"systems so that they don't have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":40.439,"endTime":44.189,"body":"to stick and spend more time on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":44.189,"endTime":47.189,"body":"the creativity of the systems"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":44.189,"endTime":47.189,"body":"that they want to build, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":47.189,"endTime":50.429,"body":"less time on the sort of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":47.189,"endTime":50.429,"body":"muck that it takes or the toil"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":50.849,"endTime":54.179,"body":"that it takes to construct those"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":50.849,"endTime":54.179,"body":"systems, right. Same thing,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":54.209,"endTime":56.489,"body":"software development, if you've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":54.209,"endTime":56.489,"body":"got, you know, test driven"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":56.489,"endTime":60.029,"body":"development or behavior driven,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":56.489,"endTime":60.029,"body":"all those things. Those are pure"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":60.059,"endTime":64.409,"body":"sort of shift left me and isms"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":60.059,"endTime":64.409,"body":"at the end of the day, that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":64.499,"endTime":67.619,"body":"allow you more freedom and more"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":64.499,"endTime":67.619,"body":"creativity. Yeah, no, I totally"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":67.619,"endTime":74.369,"body":"agree with that. It's a deep I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":67.619,"endTime":74.369,"body":"guess, the the old leads this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":74.369,"endTime":77.849,"body":"leads into that. The other"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":74.369,"endTime":77.849,"body":"question, I you know, I loved"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":77.849,"endTime":83.879,"body":"your your recent I guess you got"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":77.849,"endTime":83.879,"body":"Tom Peters to retweet one of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":83.879,"endTime":87.179,"body":"your things because I I've gone"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":83.879,"endTime":87.179,"body":"back to your blog many times"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":87.179,"endTime":92.399,"body":"about that idea of you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":87.179,"endTime":92.399,"body":"that people misquote damning on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":92.399,"endTime":95.789,"body":"the sort of the data question,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":92.399,"endTime":95.789,"body":"right, right? You want to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":95.789,"endTime":97.409,"body":"explain that to everybody? Or?"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":98.34,"endTime":101.4,"body":"Well, one of the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":98.34,"endTime":101.4,"body":"the, it's beautiful, maybe I'll"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":101.4,"endTime":108.93,"body":"try to look it up while I have"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":101.4,"endTime":108.93,"body":"it on the eye. So let me see"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":108.93,"endTime":109.92,"body":"what is the quote?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":110.46,"endTime":111.54,"body":"Coughs quote,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":110.46,"endTime":111.54,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":112.89,"endTime":114.51,"body":"Well, there's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":112.89,"endTime":114.51,"body":"several"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":114.72,"endTime":116.85,"body":"Demings, right,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":114.72,"endTime":116.85,"body":"which is I gotta write down. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":116.85,"endTime":121.41,"body":"it's not like I've met. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":116.85,"endTime":121.41,"body":"it's, you can't manage what you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":121.41,"endTime":122.52,"body":"can't measure. Right,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":122.55,"endTime":128.28,"body":"right. Yeah. Um,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":122.55,"endTime":128.28,"body":"and so the cool thing is, um,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":128.31,"endTime":138.48,"body":"can't man judge what you can't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":128.31,"endTime":138.48,"body":"measure. The cool thing is, if"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":138.48,"endTime":142.92,"body":"you want to be pedantic about"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":138.48,"endTime":142.92,"body":"it, they are 100%. Correct."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":143.13,"endTime":147.84,"body":"Deming said those words, he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":143.13,"endTime":147.84,"body":"said, if you can't measure it,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":147.87,"endTime":151.08,"body":"you can't manage it, if you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":147.87,"endTime":151.08,"body":"can't measure it, and now the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":151.08,"endTime":154.2,"body":"problem is that's in the middle"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":151.08,"endTime":154.2,"body":"of a sentence. And the sentence"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":154.2,"endTime":159.42,"body":"is, it is wrong to suppose that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":154.2,"endTime":159.42,"body":"if you can't measure it, you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":159.42,"endTime":163.98,"body":"can't manage it a costly myth"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":159.42,"endTime":163.98,"body":"that's in the New Economics. So"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":163.98,"endTime":167.55,"body":"the funny thing is, you can say"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":163.98,"endTime":167.55,"body":"Deming said, if you can't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":167.55,"endTime":173.7,"body":"measure it, you can't manage it,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":167.55,"endTime":173.7,"body":"because he did. Now it is 100%"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":173.7,"endTime":176.79,"body":"misunderstanding what he said,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":173.7,"endTime":176.79,"body":"because if you look at the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":176.82,"endTime":182.49,"body":"complete sentence, it says,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":176.82,"endTime":182.49,"body":"basically the opposite. Um, and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":182.49,"endTime":186.78,"body":"that's one of the things I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":182.49,"endTime":186.78,"body":"Deming was very quotable, he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":186.78,"endTime":190.29,"body":"said, a lot of things are great"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":186.78,"endTime":190.29,"body":"sort of short quotes. And you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":190.29,"endTime":193.77,"body":"can use that very well, you can"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":190.29,"endTime":193.77,"body":"make a point to a group of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":193.77,"endTime":198.21,"body":"people, and it can encapsulate"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":193.77,"endTime":198.21,"body":"sort of this idea. But there's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":198.21,"endTime":202.38,"body":"real danger when you try to say,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":198.21,"endTime":202.38,"body":"well, here's a quote, This is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":202.38,"endTime":207.42,"body":"what it means. Um, so Deming"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":202.38,"endTime":207.42,"body":"will say, you know, at different"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":207.42,"endTime":210.57,"body":"times, he would, or people quote"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":207.42,"endTime":210.57,"body":"him saying different things"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":210.57,"endTime":214.83,"body":"about what's the most important"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":210.57,"endTime":214.83,"body":"part of the management system or"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":214.83,"endTime":219.96,"body":"something? And it's like, yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":214.83,"endTime":219.96,"body":"maybe he said that, but you have"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":219.96,"endTime":224.1,"body":"to, to know what it really means"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":219.96,"endTime":224.1,"body":"you have to pay attention to his"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":224.1,"endTime":224.82,"body":"whole scope."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":225.51,"endTime":227.07,"body":"Yeah, I mean, yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":227.16,"endTime":228.72,"body":"I just you learn"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":227.16,"endTime":228.72,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":229.86,"endTime":231.0,"body":"Yeah. Because you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":229.86,"endTime":231.0,"body":"say"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":231.03,"endTime":235.98,"body":"which things are"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":231.03,"endTime":235.98,"body":"accurate and which things don't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":235.98,"endTime":240.66,"body":"really flip. There's another one"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":235.98,"endTime":240.66,"body":"a disputed quote, where I think"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":240.66,"endTime":246.84,"body":"Deming did say it as a joke. Um,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":240.66,"endTime":246.84,"body":"but other people say no, he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":246.84,"endTime":254.07,"body":"would never say that. About if,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":246.84,"endTime":254.07,"body":"you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":258.66,"endTime":260.22,"body":"know, in God, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":258.66,"endTime":260.22,"body":"trust"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":260.339,"endTime":264.929,"body":"Yeah, in, in God,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":260.339,"endTime":264.929,"body":"we trust everyone else, Spring"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":264.929,"endTime":270.509,"body":"Data data or something like"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":264.929,"endTime":270.509,"body":"that. The, um, now, does Deming"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":270.539,"endTime":274.859,"body":"believe that? No, not in the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":270.539,"endTime":274.859,"body":"sense of everything must have"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":274.859,"endTime":279.329,"body":"data because we just saw that."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":274.859,"endTime":279.329,"body":"Yeah, but it's a great quote,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":279.359,"endTime":283.199,"body":"for specific situations when"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":279.359,"endTime":283.199,"body":"people aren't using data well,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":283.589,"endTime":287.429,"body":"um, to say, look, where's your"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":283.589,"endTime":287.429,"body":"data to back up your claim here?"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":287.789,"endTime":291.869,"body":"Um, and so I think that Deming"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":287.789,"endTime":291.869,"body":"did say it but who knows, maybe"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":292.739,"endTime":293.009,"body":"they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":293.01,"endTime":295.41,"body":"looked you you sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":293.01,"endTime":295.41,"body":"of asked in your blog, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":295.74,"endTime":298.92,"body":"I like to sort of go do a nice,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":295.74,"endTime":298.92,"body":"you know, spend a fair amount of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":298.92,"endTime":302.58,"body":"time before I'm gonna go to a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":298.92,"endTime":302.58,"body":"gap strike and you know you had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":302.58,"endTime":306.21,"body":"asked like, if anybody knows"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":302.58,"endTime":306.21,"body":"where that I found it in Mary"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":306.21,"endTime":309.75,"body":"Waltons, the Deming management"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":306.21,"endTime":309.75,"body":"method where it's all she does"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":309.78,"endTime":316.5,"body":"say, In God We Trust all others"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":309.78,"endTime":316.5,"body":"use data. It's a subtle, but um,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":316.71,"endTime":319.26,"body":"but I think what you did really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":316.71,"endTime":319.26,"body":"well in that blog and I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":319.26,"endTime":324.51,"body":"you according Ackoff, right,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":319.26,"endTime":324.51,"body":"which was the concept of you,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":324.51,"endTime":327.96,"body":"there's the unknown and the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":324.51,"endTime":327.96,"body":"unknowable. And it's a manager's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":327.96,"endTime":330.9,"body":"job. And I'm summarizing the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":327.96,"endTime":330.9,"body":"manager's job to basically"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":330.9,"endTime":336.18,"body":"figure that out. Right. I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":330.9,"endTime":336.18,"body":"that's why that I agree with you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":336.18,"endTime":340.11,"body":"that sort of quote, is somewhat"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":336.18,"endTime":340.11,"body":"of a misquote, although it can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":340.11,"endTime":340.95,"body":"be useful,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":341.31,"endTime":344.16,"body":"right? Yeah. Well,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":341.31,"endTime":344.16,"body":"that's the thing. It's so"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":344.16,"endTime":349.53,"body":"wonderful doing, in my opinion,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":344.16,"endTime":349.53,"body":"once you figure out that you've"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":349.53,"endTime":354.45,"body":"read a fair amount of damning"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":349.53,"endTime":354.45,"body":"and a cough and showcased, you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":354.45,"endTime":358.65,"body":"can trust that, you know, if"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":354.45,"endTime":358.65,"body":"they say something, I'm going to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":358.65,"endTime":362.25,"body":"pay a lot of attention to it,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":358.65,"endTime":362.25,"body":"even if it doesn't seem right to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":362.25,"endTime":366.81,"body":"me on first blush, because I've"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":362.25,"endTime":366.81,"body":"established in my sort of mental"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":366.81,"endTime":369.96,"body":"model, that this person knows a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":366.81,"endTime":369.96,"body":"heck of a lot about management,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":369.99,"endTime":374.1,"body":"if they believe something that's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":369.99,"endTime":374.1,"body":"different than me, I should pay"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":374.1,"endTime":376.2,"body":"attention, not just assume that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":374.1,"endTime":376.2,"body":"they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":376.2,"endTime":378.66,"body":"open up the book,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":376.2,"endTime":378.66,"body":"right? Like I mean, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":378.66,"endTime":381.84,"body":"was just writing something about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":378.66,"endTime":381.84,"body":"14 points related to cyber, it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":381.84,"endTime":384.33,"body":"one of the areas I cover a lot,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":381.84,"endTime":384.33,"body":"because in cyber and the whole"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":384.33,"endTime":387.69,"body":"sort of cyber terrorism, cyber"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":384.33,"endTime":387.69,"body":"attacks, and I was trying to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":387.69,"endTime":391.2,"body":"relate that to 14 points. And so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":387.69,"endTime":391.2,"body":"I purposely, you know, you can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":391.2,"endTime":394.95,"body":"read a million blogs about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":391.2,"endTime":394.95,"body":"Demings, 14 points, right. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":394.95,"endTime":397.32,"body":"that's good, right? That to the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":394.95,"endTime":397.32,"body":"point we made earlier, like that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":397.35,"endTime":400.44,"body":"it evolves. Right. And this is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":397.35,"endTime":400.44,"body":"good stuff. But what I wanted to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":400.44,"endTime":404.04,"body":"go back and reread, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":400.44,"endTime":404.04,"body":"out of the crisis to make sure I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":404.04,"endTime":408.72,"body":"really tried to understand what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":404.04,"endTime":408.72,"body":"he was saying in 1980, or 92,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":408.75,"endTime":411.33,"body":"when the book was published. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":408.75,"endTime":411.33,"body":"one of the things I've learned"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":411.33,"endTime":415.65,"body":"about Deming is I guess, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":411.33,"endTime":415.65,"body":"know, like to say he's, he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":415.65,"endTime":418.29,"body":"sort of, I mean, obviously"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":415.65,"endTime":418.29,"body":"sounds like he didn't suffer"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":418.29,"endTime":422.85,"body":"fools. He was sort of curtain"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":418.29,"endTime":422.85,"body":"his words, I felt like in what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":422.85,"endTime":426.81,"body":"I've learned about him is like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":422.85,"endTime":426.81,"body":"he used the word that meant"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":426.81,"endTime":430.5,"body":"something. And if you didn't get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":426.81,"endTime":430.5,"body":"it, he didn't sort of step back"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":430.5,"endTime":433.74,"body":"and say, oh, you know, let me"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":430.5,"endTime":433.74,"body":"explain it to you for Johnny."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":434.67,"endTime":437.94,"body":"You know, he, you seem to be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":434.67,"endTime":437.94,"body":"always sort of moving forward."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":437.94,"endTime":441.63,"body":"And like you had, and I'll give"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":437.94,"endTime":441.63,"body":"you an example of something that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":441.63,"endTime":445.56,"body":"like, like, really turned the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":441.63,"endTime":445.56,"body":"light bulb on for me. He was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":445.56,"endTime":449.49,"body":"asked at one point by somebody"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":445.56,"endTime":449.49,"body":"was interviewed, which said, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":449.49,"endTime":452.46,"body":"talk about Japan, and he said,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":449.49,"endTime":452.46,"body":"there was only one person in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":452.46,"endTime":456.72,"body":"Japan profound knowledge. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":452.46,"endTime":456.72,"body":"that sounds very egotistical,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":456.72,"endTime":459.72,"body":"right, like, my goodness, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":456.72,"endTime":459.72,"body":"really, is that what he said?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":460.32,"endTime":465.18,"body":"But I think if you understand"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":460.32,"endTime":465.18,"body":"Dr. Deming, like he basically"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":465.18,"endTime":469.17,"body":"thought of that more, as you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":465.18,"endTime":469.17,"body":"know, not, you know, like, what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":469.17,"endTime":473.67,"body":"he meant is, there's a body of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":469.17,"endTime":473.67,"body":"work that you had to understand,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":474.15,"endTime":478.44,"body":"to help improve, to create those"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":474.15,"endTime":478.44,"body":"improvement and changes your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":478.44,"endTime":482.13,"body":"pan. And you know, and I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":478.44,"endTime":482.13,"body":"he just didn't bother to say,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":482.16,"endTime":485.37,"body":"Oh, by the way, that is system"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":482.16,"endTime":485.37,"body":"of profound knowledge, or that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":485.37,"endTime":489.9,"body":"is the aggregate of everybody"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":485.37,"endTime":489.9,"body":"from pragmatism, you know, all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":489.9,"endTime":494.55,"body":"the way up to shore it to theory"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":489.9,"endTime":494.55,"body":"of knowledge, it's variation all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":494.55,"endTime":497.67,"body":"through the years, obviously,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":494.55,"endTime":497.67,"body":"shoot it through, you get my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":497.67,"endTime":500.73,"body":"point, I don't think he would"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":497.67,"endTime":500.73,"body":"stop and say, okay, he just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":500.73,"endTime":504.18,"body":"said, you know, there was only"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":500.73,"endTime":504.18,"body":"one person who, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":504.18,"endTime":507.87,"body":"understood the profound or had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":504.18,"endTime":507.87,"body":"profound knowledge. And it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":507.87,"endTime":511.98,"body":"wasn't like he was saying, I was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":507.87,"endTime":511.98,"body":"the smartest person in Japan. He"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":511.98,"endTime":515.25,"body":"was saying there's a body of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":511.98,"endTime":515.25,"body":"work that had to be appointed."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":515.34,"endTime":516.24,"body":"Am I making sense?"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":516.84,"endTime":519.9,"body":"They to me, you are"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":516.84,"endTime":519.9,"body":"I bet you a lot of people won't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":519.9,"endTime":528.03,"body":"understand it. I think one of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":519.9,"endTime":528.03,"body":"the things that's true is Deming"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":528.27,"endTime":533.16,"body":"didn't have the same social"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":528.27,"endTime":533.16,"body":"niceties that we expect today,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":533.37,"endTime":537.93,"body":"where you sort of congratulate"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":533.37,"endTime":537.93,"body":"everyone on anything they're"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":537.93,"endTime":540.27,"body":"able to do and you don't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":537.93,"endTime":540.27,"body":"criticize them, because that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":540.27,"endTime":543.12,"body":"might, you know, make them"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":540.27,"endTime":543.12,"body":"unhappy or something. Now,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":543.12,"endTime":545.88,"body":"there's a very fine line, well,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":543.12,"endTime":545.88,"body":"that fine line, but there's a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":545.88,"endTime":552.48,"body":"very tricky line between having"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":545.88,"endTime":552.48,"body":"high expectations for people and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":553.71,"endTime":559.62,"body":"not being cruel to people. The,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":553.71,"endTime":559.62,"body":"from the people that I knew that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":559.62,"endTime":565.35,"body":"dealt with them in a lie in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":559.62,"endTime":565.35,"body":"outside of those seminars, is he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":565.35,"endTime":569.43,"body":"was very challenging and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":565.35,"endTime":569.43,"body":"difficult to executives, he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":569.43,"endTime":573.72,"body":"expected them to do what I was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":569.43,"endTime":573.72,"body":"talking about a long time ago,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":573.75,"endTime":577.92,"body":"which is you are the leader of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":573.75,"endTime":577.92,"body":"an organization with you know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":577.92,"endTime":582.78,"body":"often 10s of 1000s or 100 1000s"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":577.92,"endTime":582.78,"body":"of people who rely on you, a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":582.78,"endTime":586.47,"body":"bunch of people like you created"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":582.78,"endTime":586.47,"body":"the Great Depression with their"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":586.47,"endTime":593.25,"body":"stupid egotistical behavior. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":586.47,"endTime":593.25,"body":"you in the 1970s and 80s are"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":593.25,"endTime":596.91,"body":"creating these organizations"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":593.25,"endTime":596.91,"body":"that have to fire 10s of 1000s"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":596.91,"endTime":600.63,"body":"of people because of the way you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":596.91,"endTime":600.63,"body":"behaved and I I'm not going to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":600.63,"endTime":605.52,"body":"sit here. And just, I not"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":600.63,"endTime":605.52,"body":"criticize you because you have"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":605.52,"endTime":608.28,"body":"power. And so you shouldn't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":605.52,"endTime":608.28,"body":"you're not used to be"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":608.28,"endTime":613.2,"body":"criticized. On the other hand,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":608.28,"endTime":613.2,"body":"if he was talking to people who"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":613.2,"endTime":619.41,"body":"were doing the work, he was not"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":613.2,"endTime":619.41,"body":"very critical at all. On one of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":619.41,"endTime":624.03,"body":"the things you asked a long time"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":619.41,"endTime":624.03,"body":"ago about, sort of if there was"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":624.03,"endTime":627.09,"body":"an aha moment, and for me, there"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":624.03,"endTime":627.09,"body":"wasn't, it was all sorts of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":627.09,"endTime":631.29,"body":"things. But if there's one piece"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":627.09,"endTime":631.29,"body":"that probably is the closest to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":631.29,"endTime":635.73,"body":"an aha moment, it is I mentioned"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":631.29,"endTime":635.73,"body":"before my dad died. And after he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":635.73,"endTime":639.06,"body":"died, I went to a bunch of these"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":635.73,"endTime":639.06,"body":"conferences and things over the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":639.06,"endTime":642.18,"body":"years with a lot of people that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":639.06,"endTime":642.18,"body":"worked with him. And also in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":642.18,"endTime":645.45,"body":"Madison, they set up the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":642.18,"endTime":645.45,"body":"Madison, area Quality"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":645.45,"endTime":648.87,"body":"Improvement Network, and then"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":645.45,"endTime":648.87,"body":"they had an annual Hunter"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":648.87,"endTime":653.55,"body":"conference. And like Deming"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":648.87,"endTime":653.55,"body":"spoke at the first one. Joiner"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":653.55,"endTime":657.69,"body":"spoke at them often. And Peter"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":653.55,"endTime":657.69,"body":"Shor pay spoke at all of them."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":657.69,"endTime":661.32,"body":"That's really how I started to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":657.69,"endTime":661.32,"body":"know Peter shoulders. Okay, um,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":661.38,"endTime":665.49,"body":"but anyway, that at those"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":661.38,"endTime":665.49,"body":"conferences, and then through"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":665.49,"endTime":670.92,"body":"the website and other things, I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":665.49,"endTime":670.92,"body":"constantly had people tell me,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":671.16,"endTime":675.18,"body":"how much of a difference My"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":671.16,"endTime":675.18,"body":"father made in their life, not"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":675.18,"endTime":679.23,"body":"in you know, oh, now I'm rich, I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":675.18,"endTime":679.23,"body":"used to be poor. Right? Right."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":679.23,"endTime":683.25,"body":"Right, I was treated as human"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":679.23,"endTime":683.25,"body":"beings, like, I don't have this"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":683.43,"endTime":686.58,"body":"skill or trait or whatever, but"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":683.43,"endTime":686.58,"body":"my dad did. And I think Deming"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":686.58,"endTime":690.6,"body":"did, which is he could deal with"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":686.58,"endTime":690.6,"body":"anyone, he could deal with the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":690.6,"endTime":694.17,"body":"president of any company. And he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":690.6,"endTime":694.17,"body":"could deal with the people on"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":694.17,"endTime":695.04,"body":"the line"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":696.33,"endTime":705.75,"body":"at any factory, or coding"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":696.33,"endTime":705.75,"body":"things, or sitting in a bank,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":705.99,"endTime":712.47,"body":"teller. And that is something"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":705.99,"endTime":712.47,"body":"that very few people can do well"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":712.62,"endTime":717.15,"body":"connect with those people, make"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":712.62,"endTime":717.15,"body":"them feel respected. Make them"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":717.15,"endTime":723.72,"body":"feel like they are valuable. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":717.15,"endTime":723.72,"body":"the thing is that it's funny"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":723.72,"endTime":727.65,"body":"because the what you see on the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":723.72,"endTime":727.65,"body":"tapes and everything with"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":727.65,"endTime":732.87,"body":"Deming, you see him being very"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":727.65,"endTime":732.87,"body":"cantankerous, yeah, I, but he"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":732.87,"endTime":737.19,"body":"had this other thing that my dad"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":732.87,"endTime":737.19,"body":"had, too, which is they would"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":737.19,"endTime":742.11,"body":"connect with these individuals."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":737.19,"endTime":742.11,"body":"And they didn't talk down to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":742.11,"endTime":745.92,"body":"them. They didn't, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":742.11,"endTime":745.92,"body":"they really connected with them"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":745.92,"endTime":749.25,"body":"as people. And they connected"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":745.92,"endTime":749.25,"body":"with something that Deming talks"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":749.25,"endTime":753.84,"body":"about a lot that almost no one"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":749.25,"endTime":753.84,"body":"else does, which is things like,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":753.87,"endTime":758.55,"body":"you know, taking pride in your"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":753.87,"endTime":758.55,"body":"work, but joy in work, and not"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":758.55,"endTime":762.45,"body":"in some sort of simple way. It's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":758.55,"endTime":762.45,"body":"not what they're talking about"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":762.48,"endTime":767.52,"body":"is not, you know, how am I happy"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":762.48,"endTime":767.52,"body":"this Friday? It is how am I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":767.52,"endTime":773.85,"body":"happy with what I spent my last"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":767.52,"endTime":773.85,"body":"20 years doing? And that, you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":773.85,"endTime":777.33,"body":"know, when you say it's not an"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":773.85,"endTime":777.33,"body":"aha moment, but I saw how"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":777.33,"endTime":782.55,"body":"powerful of force this was in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":777.33,"endTime":782.55,"body":"people's lives, you know, people"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":782.55,"endTime":787.11,"body":"who, who, I think most people in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":782.55,"endTime":787.11,"body":"the United States today, go to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":787.11,"endTime":790.59,"body":"work and basically don't like"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":787.11,"endTime":790.59,"body":"their job and don't take much"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":790.59,"endTime":792.87,"body":"pride in their job. And that's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":790.59,"endTime":792.87,"body":"just the way it is. And it's way"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":792.87,"endTime":795.39,"body":"it's been for the last 20 years."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":792.87,"endTime":795.39,"body":"Well, I talked to a bunch of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":795.39,"endTime":799.5,"body":"people over, you know, years"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":795.39,"endTime":799.5,"body":"that were like, that's the way"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":799.5,"endTime":805.29,"body":"it was for me, then I dealt with"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":799.5,"endTime":805.29,"body":"your dad. And now I have a life"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":805.35,"endTime":808.56,"body":"that, you know, it's not"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":805.35,"endTime":808.56,"body":"perfect. And it always is every"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":808.56,"endTime":813.03,"body":"day, like where I am proud of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":808.56,"endTime":813.03,"body":"what I do every day, I use my"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":813.03,"endTime":817.17,"body":"brain at work, you know, many of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":813.03,"endTime":817.17,"body":"them would transition from the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":817.17,"endTime":820.95,"body":"work they were doing into more"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":817.17,"endTime":820.95,"body":"responsibility. And so they also"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":820.95,"endTime":825.18,"body":"were making more money. But it"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":820.95,"endTime":825.18,"body":"is, it's also the way that I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":825.18,"endTime":829.14,"body":"grew up. I mean, I just didn't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":825.18,"endTime":829.14,"body":"understand the concept that most"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":829.14,"endTime":836.46,"body":"people have. I mean, my dad had"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":829.14,"endTime":836.46,"body":"a job where he did white. He"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":836.46,"endTime":840.57,"body":"wanted to be doing, I would as a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":836.46,"endTime":840.57,"body":"kid, we would it just didn't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":840.57,"endTime":844.11,"body":"happen very often. But when we"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":840.57,"endTime":844.11,"body":"were on vacation, we would"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":844.11,"endTime":847.95,"body":"sometimes wrap in a factory"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":844.11,"endTime":847.95,"body":"visit."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":848.46,"endTime":851.85,"body":"We're going to be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":848.46,"endTime":851.85,"body":"like you dude, I forced my kids"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":851.85,"endTime":855.78,"body":"to go to Toyota and Mazda when"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":851.85,"endTime":855.78,"body":"we made the Japan trip. So"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":857.4,"endTime":862.32,"body":"it uh, it's, you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":857.4,"endTime":862.32,"body":"know, it's a very few events of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":862.32,"endTime":866.01,"body":"it, but it makes a difference,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":862.32,"endTime":866.01,"body":"you see, and it's it wasn't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":866.01,"endTime":870.0,"body":"because he I, you see a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":866.01,"endTime":870.0,"body":"people who are like you have to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":870.0,"endTime":874.74,"body":"separate life and work. Yeah."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":870.0,"endTime":874.74,"body":"And it isn't that and it isn't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":874.74,"endTime":879.69,"body":"that you have to work all the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":874.74,"endTime":879.69,"body":"time. He did not add on this"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":879.69,"endTime":882.51,"body":"trip to the factory because his"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":879.69,"endTime":882.51,"body":"boss was made"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":883.439,"endTime":887.459,"body":"miserable. Get it?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":883.439,"endTime":887.459,"body":"I mean, yeah, your life, right,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":887.459,"endTime":890.819,"body":"like, right. I'm in Japan, there"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":887.459,"endTime":890.819,"body":"ain't no way I'm not going to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":890.819,"endTime":894.089,"body":"Toyota plant. Right. And, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":890.819,"endTime":894.089,"body":"know, but it was, you know, a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":894.089,"endTime":898.529,"body":"two week trip and one day, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":894.089,"endTime":898.529,"body":"know, one day in Mazda but yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":898.529,"endTime":902.009,"body":"now that's the way you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":898.529,"endTime":902.009,"body":"I've been very much independent"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":902.009,"endTime":905.729,"body":"and been able to do that with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":902.009,"endTime":905.729,"body":"my, you know, I, they don't do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":905.729,"endTime":908.459,"body":"it anymore. But for years, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":905.729,"endTime":908.459,"body":"would be invited to Georgia"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":908.459,"endTime":912.719,"body":"Tech, I'm here in Atlanta and,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":908.459,"endTime":912.719,"body":"and I'd lecture to these to the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":912.749,"endTime":916.499,"body":"seniors in this there was a, it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":912.749,"endTime":916.499,"body":"was like a networking internet"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":916.499,"endTime":920.129,"body":"infrastructure class and, and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":916.499,"endTime":920.129,"body":"would just tell them, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":920.129,"endTime":922.409,"body":"here's the deal, man, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":920.129,"endTime":922.409,"body":"you're all going to rush out of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":922.409,"endTime":926.279,"body":"here you're going to get jobs"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":922.409,"endTime":926.279,"body":"and you need offers and but like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":926.309,"endTime":929.939,"body":"you have to find a job that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":926.309,"endTime":929.939,"body":"we're nine out of 10 days,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":930.029,"endTime":932.879,"body":"they'll never be 10 out of 10."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":930.029,"endTime":932.879,"body":"But not in a day, you wake up"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":932.879,"endTime":936.509,"body":"with a smile on your face. If"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":932.879,"endTime":936.509,"body":"you can find that I told my boys"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":936.509,"endTime":938.429,"body":"doubt I tell anybody who's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":936.509,"endTime":938.429,"body":"willing to listen to me, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":938.429,"endTime":941.999,"body":"know? Like, that's this sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":938.429,"endTime":941.999,"body":"magic. Because then to your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":941.999,"endTime":945.359,"body":"point, when you go on a trip and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":941.999,"endTime":945.359,"body":"you visit the Toyota plant,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":945.479,"endTime":949.559,"body":"that's not work. No, we wait. We"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":945.479,"endTime":949.559,"body":"went to restaurants. We did all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":949.559,"endTime":952.229,"body":"sorts of other fun stuff and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":949.559,"endTime":952.229,"body":"temples and all that stuff. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":952.229,"endTime":955.679,"body":"to me, you know, that wasn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":952.229,"endTime":955.679,"body":"like, oh, you know, I gotta go"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":955.679,"endTime":958.709,"body":"back and report to the people I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":955.679,"endTime":958.709,"body":"work with. No, I totally get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":958.709,"endTime":961.559,"body":"that. Do you got some more time"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":958.709,"endTime":961.559,"body":"for a couple more questions? Are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":961.559,"endTime":965.309,"body":"we? Yeah. You said you like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":961.559,"endTime":965.309,"body":"going long we can break up?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":965.339,"endTime":965.699,"body":"Well, I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":965.7,"endTime":970.2,"body":"just I Yeah. I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":965.7,"endTime":970.2,"body":"really like this stuff."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":970.77,"endTime":973.5,"body":"Oh, me too. Right."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":970.77,"endTime":973.5,"body":"Totally. Yeah. Well, I guess the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":973.5,"endTime":976.71,"body":"other thing I like that you were"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":973.5,"endTime":976.71,"body":"talking about, like the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":976.71,"endTime":980.28,"body":"evolution of these learning. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":976.71,"endTime":980.28,"body":"you would, and I've read some of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":980.28,"endTime":985.59,"body":"your stuff in the past about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":980.28,"endTime":985.59,"body":"about this, you added like the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":985.89,"endTime":990.03,"body":"two more deadly sins. Right. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":985.89,"endTime":990.03,"body":"I think, you know, I, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":990.45,"endTime":994.08,"body":"I definitely like the IP, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":990.45,"endTime":994.08,"body":"intellectual property, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":994.2,"endTime":997.17,"body":"unquestioned. So you added that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":994.2,"endTime":997.17,"body":"as like sort of nine, right? And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":997.17,"endTime":1001.49,"body":"then, you know, he was the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":997.17,"endTime":1001.49,"body":"excessive payment, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1001.52,"endTime":1005.0,"body":"like, we probably don't have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1001.52,"endTime":1005.0,"body":"enough time to go into the parts"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1005.0,"endTime":1008.84,"body":"I agree. And the parts I still"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1005.0,"endTime":1008.84,"body":"struggle with, because I've run"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1008.84,"endTime":1012.2,"body":"software companies. And I, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1008.84,"endTime":1012.2,"body":"know, the one area I don't fully"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1012.2,"endTime":1016.25,"body":"agree with Dr. Deming is when I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1012.2,"endTime":1016.25,"body":"got top salespeople making like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1016.25,"endTime":1019.55,"body":"tons of money, bringing in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1016.25,"endTime":1019.55,"body":"sales. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1019.58,"endTime":1021.68,"body":"I heard you talking"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1019.58,"endTime":1021.68,"body":"about that on another one of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1021.68,"endTime":1026.12,"body":"your podcast. Yeah, give you a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1021.68,"endTime":1026.12,"body":"short bit on my piece. Okay. The"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1026.18,"endTime":1032.66,"body":"idea, I think, is that I wrote a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1026.18,"endTime":1032.66,"body":"blog post on the idea that what"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1032.69,"endTime":1036.29,"body":"you're able to do in management"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1032.69,"endTime":1036.29,"body":"improvement is heavily dependent"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1036.32,"endTime":1040.22,"body":"on what the current state of the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1036.32,"endTime":1040.22,"body":"organization is. So you can't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1040.22,"endTime":1044.09,"body":"just magically do any old thing."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1040.22,"endTime":1044.09,"body":"And think that it's all going to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1044.09,"endTime":1046.28,"body":"work. Like if you have a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1044.09,"endTime":1046.28,"body":"completely dysfunctional"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1046.28,"endTime":1049.25,"body":"organization, as many do. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1046.28,"endTime":1049.25,"body":"you get rid of performance"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1049.25,"endTime":1052.04,"body":"appraisals, that might be one of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1049.25,"endTime":1052.04,"body":"the few things that's holding"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1052.37,"endTime":1056.99,"body":"some of the most abusive"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1052.37,"endTime":1056.99,"body":"behavior. So it's not that you,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1057.29,"endTime":1060.2,"body":"it's not that you can take your"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1057.29,"endTime":1060.2,"body":"screwed up system, get rid of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1060.2,"endTime":1062.87,"body":"performance appraisals, and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1060.2,"endTime":1062.87,"body":"things are better. It is,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1062.9,"endTime":1068.24,"body":"though, that there are many ways"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1062.9,"endTime":1068.24,"body":"performance appraisals are bad."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1068.45,"endTime":1071.63,"body":"And if your system is improving,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1068.45,"endTime":1071.63,"body":"it can create"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1071.66,"endTime":1073.79,"body":"value. But to be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1071.66,"endTime":1073.79,"body":"clear, I'm totally against"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1073.79,"endTime":1078.17,"body":"performance appraisals, the area"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1073.79,"endTime":1078.17,"body":"I sort of get squirrely with is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1078.38,"endTime":1079.31,"body":"compensation."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1079.58,"endTime":1081.62,"body":"Well, that's so"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1079.58,"endTime":1081.62,"body":"what I was gonna say is, it"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1081.62,"endTime":1086.72,"body":"depends on your current system."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1081.62,"endTime":1086.72,"body":"I would say that one of the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1086.72,"endTime":1091.91,"body":"reasons why sales incentives"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1086.72,"endTime":1091.91,"body":"work so well is that no matter"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1091.91,"endTime":1094.73,"body":"how, what kind of system, you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1091.91,"endTime":1094.73,"body":"have a good one, a bad one,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1094.76,"endTime":1099.98,"body":"whatever. If you incentive, good"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1094.76,"endTime":1099.98,"body":"sales people, people who can get"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1099.98,"endTime":1104.81,"body":"people to sign checks, um, they"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1099.98,"endTime":1104.81,"body":"will probably be able to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1104.84,"endTime":1115.28,"body":"increase sales. So where I think"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1104.84,"endTime":1115.28,"body":"the idea comes from that. In it"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1115.28,"endTime":1118.43,"body":"create, it can create all sorts"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1115.28,"endTime":1118.43,"body":"of problems. Now, if you have a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1118.43,"endTime":1123.62,"body":"management system that is strong"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1118.43,"endTime":1123.62,"body":"in many ways, it might be that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1123.62,"endTime":1129.2,"body":"you can keep all or some"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1123.62,"endTime":1129.2,"body":"incentives for exceptional"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1129.2,"endTime":1134.36,"body":"salespeople in place. But my"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1129.2,"endTime":1134.36,"body":"belief would be that if I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1134.36,"endTime":1140.99,"body":"improve the system, I shouldn't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1134.36,"endTime":1140.99,"body":"have to use a sales incentives"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1140.99,"endTime":1146.39,"body":"targeted at a few really good"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1140.99,"endTime":1146.39,"body":"salespeople to make things"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1146.39,"endTime":1151.04,"body":"better. And if you don't make"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1146.39,"endTime":1151.04,"body":"the change, there are usually"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1151.07,"endTime":1154.52,"body":"some bad consequences even if"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1151.07,"endTime":1154.52,"body":"they're not in this year's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1154.85,"endTime":1159.05,"body":"statements, which is if you have"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1154.85,"endTime":1159.05,"body":"good salespeople, and you don't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1159.05,"endTime":1163.94,"body":"have sales quotas and sales"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1159.05,"endTime":1163.94,"body":"incentives, they help the other"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1163.94,"endTime":1168.41,"body":"salespeople design systems that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1163.94,"endTime":1168.41,"body":"will help them sell well, if"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1168.41,"endTime":1172.43,"body":"they're incented, to keep"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1168.41,"endTime":1172.43,"body":"themselves as the star and the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1172.43,"endTime":1175.82,"body":"other salespeople as non stars."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1172.43,"endTime":1175.82,"body":"They're not going to be"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1175.88,"endTime":1180.26,"body":"incentivized to do that. Now,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1175.88,"endTime":1180.26,"body":"you need to be pretty far along"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1180.29,"endTime":1185.63,"body":"usually before that's going to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1180.29,"endTime":1185.63,"body":"factor in. So that's one other"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1185.63,"endTime":1186.59,"body":"piece I was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1186.59,"endTime":1188.75,"body":"just gonna say"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1186.59,"endTime":1188.75,"body":"Amazon that is you know, if you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1188.75,"endTime":1192.05,"body":"if you had the opportunity,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1188.75,"endTime":1192.05,"body":"working backwards or any books,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1192.32,"endTime":1196.37,"body":"I mean, they've reasonably"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1192.32,"endTime":1196.37,"body":"successfully figured out how to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1196.37,"endTime":1198.62,"body":"do what Deming prescribes. One"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1198.62,"endTime":1201.26,"body":"of the really good"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1198.62,"endTime":1201.26,"body":"there's a When I listened to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1201.26,"endTime":1205.13,"body":"that other podcast that I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1201.26,"endTime":1205.13,"body":"thought of a really good book,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1205.16,"endTime":1209.81,"body":"which is free, perfect, and now"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1205.16,"endTime":1209.81,"body":"by Ron Roden, they talked about"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1209.81,"endTime":1213.23,"body":"eliminating sales commission and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1209.81,"endTime":1213.23,"body":"how it helped. There are also a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1213.23,"endTime":1217.22,"body":"couple of blog posts I've put on"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1213.23,"endTime":1217.22,"body":"the Deming Institute blog, I'll"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1217.22,"endTime":1220.91,"body":"include links to those on, but"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1217.22,"endTime":1220.91,"body":"free perfect now is really good."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1220.91,"endTime":1223.97,"body":"It's also a really good example"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1220.91,"endTime":1223.97,"body":"of why this Deming stuff doesn't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1224.0,"endTime":1227.81,"body":"take off more. Okay, so Ron"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1224.0,"endTime":1227.81,"body":"Rhoden did a lot of really good"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1227.81,"endTime":1231.95,"body":"stuff. He wrote that book, it's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1227.81,"endTime":1231.95,"body":"awesome. Um, and it, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1232.1,"endTime":1235.49,"body":"it talks about a lot of the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1232.1,"endTime":1235.49,"body":"things that people that know"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1235.49,"endTime":1238.22,"body":"what they're talking about in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1235.49,"endTime":1238.22,"body":"Deming and getting rid of sales"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1238.25,"endTime":1242.84,"body":"incentives will say, can happen"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1238.25,"endTime":1242.84,"body":"if you get rid of them? What"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1242.84,"endTime":1245.69,"body":"happened? So they did really"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1242.84,"endTime":1245.69,"body":"well, they're doing awesome. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1245.69,"endTime":1247.73,"body":"you're investing in the long"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1245.69,"endTime":1247.73,"body":"term, you're creating a really"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1247.73,"endTime":1250.91,"body":"strong system. So what happened,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1247.73,"endTime":1250.91,"body":"they were bought out what"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1250.91,"endTime":1254.45,"body":"happened after they're bought"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1250.91,"endTime":1254.45,"body":"out, all the new ideas were"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1254.45,"endTime":1257.03,"body":"trashed. And they went back to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1254.45,"endTime":1257.03,"body":"the old way of doing things,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1257.03,"endTime":1261.44,"body":"which is what constantly is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1257.03,"endTime":1261.44,"body":"happening. Um, managing without"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1261.44,"endTime":1266.6,"body":"sales quotas requires you to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1261.44,"endTime":1266.6,"body":"manage the system. And that's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1266.6,"endTime":1271.79,"body":"way harder than just telling,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1266.6,"endTime":1271.79,"body":"just giving people big bonuses"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1271.79,"endTime":1275.3,"body":"if they can get sales. You know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1271.79,"endTime":1275.3,"body":"that's not very hard to do. You"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1275.3,"endTime":1277.7,"body":"hire people who are good"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1275.3,"endTime":1277.7,"body":"salespeople, which Great, that's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1277.7,"endTime":1281.21,"body":"a very, it's a very specific"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1277.7,"endTime":1281.21,"body":"skill. And another thing is that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1281.39,"endTime":1286.94,"body":"some of it is just not that fun"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1281.39,"endTime":1286.94,"body":"work. And so one way you make"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1286.94,"endTime":1290.48,"body":"sure that they actually work all"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1286.94,"endTime":1290.48,"body":"the time, is you give them big"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1290.48,"endTime":1293.33,"body":"incentives. Now, it's sort of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1290.48,"endTime":1293.33,"body":"funny, it's like, you don't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1293.33,"endTime":1296.66,"body":"usually see people say that,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1293.33,"endTime":1296.66,"body":"well, garbage man, I can do"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1296.66,"endTime":1299.69,"body":"their job, because it's no fun."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1296.66,"endTime":1299.69,"body":"So like, you have to do your"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1299.69,"endTime":1304.28,"body":"damn job. You can't just not go"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1299.69,"endTime":1304.28,"body":"to 25% of your addresses,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1304.28,"endTime":1307.04,"body":"because you don't, but people"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1304.28,"endTime":1307.04,"body":"are worried that that's what"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1307.04,"endTime":1310.88,"body":"sales people will do. Um, so you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1307.04,"endTime":1310.88,"body":"need to manage that whole"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1310.88,"endTime":1312.44,"body":"system. And that's much harder"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1310.88,"endTime":1312.44,"body":"to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1312.47,"endTime":1315.83,"body":"Yeah, no, I yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1312.47,"endTime":1315.83,"body":"I'm glad this is really good."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1316.04,"endTime":1319.61,"body":"You know, again, sometimes you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1316.04,"endTime":1319.61,"body":"can read Dr. Deming and like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1319.64,"endTime":1323.0,"body":"you know, not get it. And then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1319.64,"endTime":1323.0,"body":"like, even when I was learning"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1323.0,"endTime":1325.67,"body":"some of the stuff like I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1323.0,"endTime":1325.67,"body":"couldn't get system, system,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1325.67,"endTime":1329.0,"body":"profound knowledge from from New"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1325.67,"endTime":1329.0,"body":"Economics, I just couldn't get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1329.0,"endTime":1331.43,"body":"it. From there. I don't know"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1329.0,"endTime":1331.43,"body":"why. And it actually took a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1331.43,"endTime":1335.3,"body":"bunch of health care, blogs and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1331.43,"endTime":1335.3,"body":"videos that helped me really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1335.3,"endTime":1339.41,"body":"understand, particularly, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1335.3,"endTime":1339.41,"body":"know, the psychology theory,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1339.41,"endTime":1342.29,"body":"psychology, but I this was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1339.41,"endTime":1342.29,"body":"really helpful for me, because"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1342.5,"endTime":1345.14,"body":"you're right, at the end of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1342.5,"endTime":1345.14,"body":"day, I fundamentally believe"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1345.14,"endTime":1349.13,"body":"that you have to improve a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1345.14,"endTime":1349.13,"body":"system. You know, sort of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1350.24,"endTime":1352.37,"body":"when you're giving"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1350.24,"endTime":1352.37,"body":"when you're making those people"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1352.37,"endTime":1356.87,"body":"stars, besides them, not then"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1352.37,"endTime":1356.87,"body":"focusing on the system. It's all"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1356.87,"endTime":1360.05,"body":"the other people, the people who"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1356.87,"endTime":1360.05,"body":"are doing the customer service,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1360.14,"endTime":1362.69,"body":"the people and one of the things"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1360.14,"endTime":1362.69,"body":"that really good salespeople are"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1362.69,"endTime":1365.78,"body":"good at is they're good at"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1362.69,"endTime":1365.78,"body":"dealing with external customers."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1365.84,"endTime":1369.2,"body":"But they're also really good at"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1365.84,"endTime":1369.2,"body":"going around all the bottlenecks"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1369.2,"endTime":1373.7,"body":"in your internal system, right?"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1369.2,"endTime":1373.7,"body":"Getting their clients special"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1373.7,"endTime":1377.48,"body":"treatment, because they're,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1373.7,"endTime":1377.48,"body":"they're good at smoothing,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1377.48,"endTime":1379.61,"body":"people are good at getting"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1377.48,"endTime":1379.61,"body":"people to do stuff. And the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1379.61,"endTime":1384.89,"body":"thing is, you want that to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1379.61,"endTime":1384.89,"body":"happen. Now, what you want to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1384.89,"endTime":1388.28,"body":"happen is you want them to do"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1384.89,"endTime":1388.28,"body":"that by improving the system. So"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1388.28,"endTime":1391.16,"body":"when their customers are"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1388.28,"endTime":1391.16,"body":"complaining that I need all my"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1391.16,"endTime":1394.64,"body":"stuff immediately, what you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1391.16,"endTime":1394.64,"body":"really want is okay, that's good"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1394.64,"endTime":1397.46,"body":"feedback. Let's look at our"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1394.64,"endTime":1397.46,"body":"overall system, how do we"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1397.46,"endTime":1400.82,"body":"improve the system to make sure"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1397.46,"endTime":1400.82,"body":"that your customer and all the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1400.82,"endTime":1404.9,"body":"other customers can get this,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1400.82,"endTime":1404.9,"body":"but what they usually do is they"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1404.9,"endTime":1409.82,"body":"know, they, you know, usually"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1404.9,"endTime":1409.82,"body":"it's just, I mean, it's social"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1409.82,"endTime":1412.88,"body":"engineering, but not in the way"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1409.82,"endTime":1412.88,"body":"that you know, people usually"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1412.88,"endTime":1416.0,"body":"think about it. It's it just"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1412.88,"endTime":1416.0,"body":"glad handing the person to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1416.0,"endTime":1418.1,"body":"convince them now sometimes"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1416.0,"endTime":1418.1,"body":"maybe they'll take me out to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1418.1,"endTime":1420.71,"body":"dinner, or sometimes they'll"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1418.1,"endTime":1420.71,"body":"even throw in little"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1420.89,"endTime":1425.54,"body":"Commission's of their own to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1420.89,"endTime":1425.54,"body":"people. But it's like, if you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1425.96,"endTime":1428.48,"body":"what will happen, because there"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1425.96,"endTime":1428.48,"body":"are a number of places that have"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1428.48,"endTime":1431.24,"body":"done this, what will happen is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1428.48,"endTime":1431.24,"body":"you'll lose some of your good"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1431.24,"endTime":1435.17,"body":"salespeople, right? Right. But"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1431.24,"endTime":1435.17,"body":"you'll the ones that you keep,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1435.56,"endTime":1438.86,"body":"are usually more interested in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1435.56,"endTime":1438.86,"body":"working on the overall system."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1439.16,"endTime":1443.99,"body":"And you also usually can reduce"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1439.16,"endTime":1443.99,"body":"turnover a lot. You can do"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1443.99,"endTime":1448.28,"body":"things like give more money."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1443.99,"endTime":1448.28,"body":"This is one of the things that I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1448.28,"endTime":1453.5,"body":"personally believe in, though I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1448.28,"endTime":1453.5,"body":"see it less often, you can start"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1453.5,"endTime":1456.05,"body":"spreading the wealth. So instead"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1453.5,"endTime":1456.05,"body":"of just giving the star"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1456.05,"endTime":1460.67,"body":"salesperson $250,000. And one of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1456.05,"endTime":1460.67,"body":"the things that they often are"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1460.67,"endTime":1465.56,"body":"coping with is, well, this is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1460.67,"endTime":1465.56,"body":"actually a different example."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1465.62,"endTime":1468.62,"body":"But like so I would know people"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1465.62,"endTime":1468.62,"body":"like they graduate from college"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1468.62,"endTime":1471.26,"body":"and they have big, high powered"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1468.62,"endTime":1471.26,"body":"jobs, and they get paid right"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1471.26,"endTime":1474.8,"body":"out of college, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1471.26,"endTime":1474.8,"body":"$150,000 $200,000 a year. Yeah."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1474.92,"endTime":1478.55,"body":"And they then have to rely on"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1474.92,"endTime":1478.55,"body":"support staff. The company"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1478.55,"endTime":1482.48,"body":"decides to pay $20,000 A year"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1478.55,"endTime":1482.48,"body":"and it's a nightmare. The people"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1482.48,"endTime":1485.42,"body":"just are not that good. They're"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1482.48,"endTime":1485.42,"body":"not very motivated for this"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1485.42,"endTime":1490.79,"body":"teeny little salary. Yeah, what"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1485.42,"endTime":1490.79,"body":"they should do is pay those pay"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1490.79,"endTime":1494.75,"body":"the people you're recruiting a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1490.79,"endTime":1494.75,"body":"bit last pay the people who are"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1494.78,"endTime":1498.02,"body":"helping them out and their"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1494.78,"endTime":1498.02,"body":"support staff a bit more, and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1498.17,"endTime":1500.78,"body":"you will then it's going back to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1498.17,"endTime":1500.78,"body":"one of the You said earlier,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1500.78,"endTime":1505.76,"body":"which is, if you're mapping out"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1500.78,"endTime":1505.76,"body":"your career money that you're"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1505.76,"endTime":1508.31,"body":"going to make matters. So it's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1505.76,"endTime":1508.31,"body":"not like that doesn't matter at"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1508.31,"endTime":1511.28,"body":"all. But I want to work at a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1508.31,"endTime":1511.28,"body":"company that functions like"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1511.28,"endTime":1514.22,"body":"Toyota, instead of a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1511.28,"endTime":1514.22,"body":"dysfunctional company where I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1514.22,"endTime":1517.04,"body":"make a ton of money, but my life"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1514.22,"endTime":1517.04,"body":"is living health. In order to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1517.04,"endTime":1519.89,"body":"get medication approved, I have"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1517.04,"endTime":1519.89,"body":"to jump through all sorts of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1519.92,"endTime":1522.68,"body":"Yeah, I remember. So I worked in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1519.92,"endTime":1522.68,"body":"the secretary defense Quality"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1522.68,"endTime":1527.57,"body":"Management Office. And one of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1522.68,"endTime":1527.57,"body":"the things we had happened was a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1527.6,"endTime":1534.65,"body":"general said, in order to buy a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1527.6,"endTime":1534.65,"body":"$50, coffeemaker, I need to get"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1534.65,"endTime":1538.64,"body":"three levels of approval now"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1534.65,"endTime":1538.64,"body":"that I'm in the Pentagon last"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1538.64,"endTime":1543.05,"body":"week, well, you know, last"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1538.64,"endTime":1543.05,"body":"quarter, I could launch a new"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1543.05,"endTime":1549.65,"body":"killer weapon on my say, so now,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1543.05,"endTime":1549.65,"body":"I have to get three senators to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1549.65,"endTime":1552.71,"body":"buy a $50 coffee pot, what in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1549.65,"endTime":1552.71,"body":"the heck is wrong with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1552.71,"endTime":1556.52,"body":"you the disease of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1552.71,"endTime":1556.52,"body":"just about all sort of Western,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1556.55,"endTime":1559.04,"body":"you know, sort of, I mean, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1556.55,"endTime":1559.04,"body":"know, it's funny because again,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1559.04,"endTime":1563.84,"body":"I like you asked me 1000 times"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1559.04,"endTime":1563.84,"body":"about type of people I want to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1563.84,"endTime":1569.09,"body":"hire I like I always shoot for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1563.84,"endTime":1569.09,"body":"in terms of development"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1569.09,"endTime":1573.02,"body":"infrastructure, always say, I'll"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1569.09,"endTime":1573.02,"body":"take you know, I'll take"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1573.05,"endTime":1577.4,"body":"intrinsically motivated people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1573.05,"endTime":1577.4,"body":"every day, every time. And then,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1577.46,"endTime":1580.37,"body":"for some reason, when I we've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1577.46,"endTime":1580.37,"body":"been hiring salespeople, I don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1580.37,"endTime":1583.76,"body":"think that way. And that's kind"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1580.37,"endTime":1583.76,"body":"of its, so I guess I've just had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1583.76,"endTime":1585.53,"body":"a little bit of an aha moment."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1583.76,"endTime":1585.53,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1585.74,"endTime":1589.25,"body":"it's also it's,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1585.74,"endTime":1589.25,"body":"it's, it's harder to find those"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1589.28,"endTime":1592.37,"body":"in a start up,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1589.28,"endTime":1592.37,"body":"right, where, like, you're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1592.55,"endTime":1595.52,"body":"literally coming out of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1592.55,"endTime":1595.52,"body":"gate. You know, you've, you've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1595.52,"endTime":1599.3,"body":"need some people that can just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1595.52,"endTime":1599.3,"body":"sort of knock down big accounts."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1599.3,"endTime":1599.72,"body":"But yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1599.72,"endTime":1602.36,"body":"and it's the people"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1599.72,"endTime":1602.36,"body":"that go into that. I mean, it's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1602.36,"endTime":1606.41,"body":"a self selecting funnel, so that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1602.36,"endTime":1606.41,"body":"those people who you're that are"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1606.41,"endTime":1610.52,"body":"gonna look at your sales"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1606.41,"endTime":1610.52,"body":"position, are going to be people"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1610.52,"endTime":1614.09,"body":"that fell into that pattern of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1610.52,"endTime":1614.09,"body":"like, Look, I just need to do"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1614.09,"endTime":1619.31,"body":"whatever I can do to make sales."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1614.09,"endTime":1619.31,"body":"Um, and, you know, I get paid a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1619.31,"endTime":1621.77,"body":"lot of money, because it's a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1619.31,"endTime":1621.77,"body":"skill, but not that many people"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1621.77,"endTime":1625.1,"body":"have. It's actually I mean, it's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1621.77,"endTime":1625.1,"body":"now that software development,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1625.1,"endTime":1629.0,"body":"salaries have gone up so much,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1625.1,"endTime":1629.0,"body":"right? It's pretty similar in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1629.0,"endTime":1631.82,"body":"that they're paid just a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1629.0,"endTime":1631.82,"body":"boatload of money now, the good"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1631.82,"endTime":1638.21,"body":"ones, um, and you could get some"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1631.82,"endTime":1638.21,"body":"of them who are very much have"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1638.21,"endTime":1644.18,"body":"sort of that pre Madonna, I am"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1638.21,"endTime":1644.18,"body":"God, and I'm not gonna follow"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1644.18,"endTime":1649.07,"body":"your stupid ass subversion"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1644.18,"endTime":1649.07,"body":"GitHub crap, I do it my way and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1649.07,"endTime":1652.31,"body":"get out of my way. Um, but it's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1649.07,"endTime":1652.31,"body":"like, that doesn't work. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1652.31,"endTime":1654.89,"body":"it's like, if that's the way you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1652.31,"endTime":1654.89,"body":"want to be, yeah, we'll just"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1654.89,"endTime":1656.63,"body":"have to find somebody else. Do"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1654.89,"endTime":1656.63,"body":"you ever"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1656.63,"endTime":1659.03,"body":"see, you know, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1656.63,"endTime":1659.03,"body":"can wrap up pretty soon, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1659.03,"endTime":1663.44,"body":"like, Patti McCord, she was the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1659.03,"endTime":1663.44,"body":"chief talent officer at Netflix."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1664.1,"endTime":1667.52,"body":"And it's a great Google, I'll"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1664.1,"endTime":1667.52,"body":"send you a link it's really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1667.52,"endTime":1670.25,"body":"pretty awesome. You know, so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1667.52,"endTime":1670.25,"body":"they had this idea at Netflix,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1670.34,"endTime":1674.39,"body":"like this Reed Hastings sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1670.34,"endTime":1674.39,"body":"culture deck, it's reasonably"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1674.39,"endTime":1679.1,"body":"famous. But she, she talked"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1674.39,"endTime":1679.1,"body":"about, they hired a guy from"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1679.1,"endTime":1683.03,"body":"IBM, because they were very"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1679.1,"endTime":1683.03,"body":"specific about how they hired"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1683.03,"endTime":1687.26,"body":"the people. They wanted, very"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1683.03,"endTime":1687.26,"body":"intrinsically motivated. It was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1687.26,"endTime":1690.44,"body":"a culture of just like you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1687.26,"endTime":1690.44,"body":"described very much, right and,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1690.89,"endTime":1694.25,"body":"and so they hired this guy from"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1690.89,"endTime":1694.25,"body":"IBM, big guy, like a fellow"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1694.25,"endTime":1698.42,"body":"right comes in big shot at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1694.25,"endTime":1698.42,"body":"Netflix. And, and he after about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1698.42,"endTime":1701.54,"body":"three, four or five months, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1698.42,"endTime":1701.54,"body":"know, Patti McCord said, She"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1701.54,"endTime":1706.31,"body":"invited me, she said, She's the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1701.54,"endTime":1706.31,"body":"greatest firing person ever."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1706.31,"endTime":1709.28,"body":"Because she sat and looked and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1706.31,"endTime":1709.28,"body":"said, it's not working. Because"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1709.28,"endTime":1712.4,"body":"he came in with the whole, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1709.28,"endTime":1712.4,"body":"it's kind of like you described"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1712.4,"endTime":1715.94,"body":"like, like, I think he thought"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1712.4,"endTime":1715.94,"body":"like, he should have an in and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1715.94,"endTime":1719.21,"body":"out basket, you know, that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1715.94,"endTime":1719.21,"body":"somebody was going to come fill"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1719.21,"endTime":1722.18,"body":"it. And he thought that people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1719.21,"endTime":1722.18,"body":"there was a team of people that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1722.18,"endTime":1724.76,"body":"are going to write his"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1722.18,"endTime":1724.76,"body":"PowerPoint presentations and,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1725.15,"endTime":1727.82,"body":"and big shot, you know, guy"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1725.15,"endTime":1727.82,"body":"probably went off to another"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1727.82,"endTime":1730.73,"body":"comedy made a ton of money. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1727.82,"endTime":1730.73,"body":"she said, you know, she said, he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1730.76,"endTime":1733.31,"body":"said like after three, maybe"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1730.76,"endTime":1733.31,"body":"five months, and she looked him"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1733.31,"endTime":1735.77,"body":"in the eye and he said, this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1733.31,"endTime":1735.77,"body":"ain't working. Right. He's like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1735.77,"endTime":1736.19,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1736.82,"endTime":1739.49,"body":"then that Netflix"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1736.82,"endTime":1739.49,"body":"stuff. I mean, I remember, you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1739.49,"endTime":1742.73,"body":"know, 15 years ago, whatever"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1739.49,"endTime":1742.73,"body":"reading it as just, this is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1742.73,"endTime":1750.29,"body":"awesome. Now, it's hard to make"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1742.73,"endTime":1750.29,"body":"it actually work. But they did"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1750.41,"endTime":1753.74,"body":"really well. And they've done"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1750.41,"endTime":1753.74,"body":"some really good stuff. I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1753.74,"endTime":1759.59,"body":"remember just being really"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1753.74,"endTime":1759.59,"body":"impressed with that model and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1759.59,"endTime":1763.37,"body":"what they were trying to do."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1759.59,"endTime":1763.37,"body":"Yeah, one of the things is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1763.49,"endTime":1767.87,"body":"actually managing companies in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1763.49,"endTime":1767.87,"body":"that way is more difficult"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1767.87,"endTime":1771.74,"body":"because you need to actually"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1767.87,"endTime":1771.74,"body":"manage, instead of just sort of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1772.07,"endTime":1775.22,"body":"holding people accountable to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1772.07,"endTime":1775.22,"body":"this metric."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1775.34,"endTime":1777.29,"body":"Its growth. I've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1775.34,"endTime":1777.29,"body":"been with a fair amount of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1777.29,"endTime":1782.0,"body":"startups where I've seen it go"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1777.29,"endTime":1782.0,"body":"from, you know, five people to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1782.0,"endTime":1785.81,"body":"you know, 100 people, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1782.0,"endTime":1785.81,"body":"that I've experienced the Dunbar"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1786.29,"endTime":1789.41,"body":"effect, you know, all those"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1786.29,"endTime":1789.41,"body":"things, you know, so that it's,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1789.59,"endTime":1794.33,"body":"it's that sort of that growth,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1789.59,"endTime":1794.33,"body":"you know, that that we're like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1794.36,"endTime":1800.45,"body":"that stuffily Just even the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1794.36,"endTime":1800.45,"body":"Dunbar number ish that has pins"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1800.45,"endTime":1804.08,"body":"like, like the culture changes."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1800.45,"endTime":1804.08,"body":"And it's, you know, it's in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1804.08,"endTime":1806.45,"body":"other words, you talked about a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1804.08,"endTime":1806.45,"body":"company getting acquired and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1806.45,"endTime":1809.72,"body":"losing everything. You have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1806.45,"endTime":1809.72,"body":"these sort of stages of growth"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1809.72,"endTime":1813.5,"body":"in these companies that, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1809.72,"endTime":1813.5,"body":"it's almost the same effect you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1813.5,"endTime":1818.27,"body":"have here tearing off of. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1813.5,"endTime":1818.27,"body":"Well, man, we covered a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1818.27,"endTime":1819.08,"body":"cool stuff."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1819.68,"endTime":1820.4,"body":"It was great."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1820.55,"endTime":1822.71,"body":"So yeah, I knew it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1820.55,"endTime":1822.71,"body":"would be good. I like I said,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1822.71,"endTime":1825.14,"body":"I've been following you. And one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1822.71,"endTime":1825.14,"body":"of the earliest blogs that I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1825.14,"endTime":1829.31,"body":"sort of stumbled I, I guess the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1825.14,"endTime":1829.31,"body":"one last thing I what I got the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1829.31,"endTime":1832.82,"body":"quote from you. But I went all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1829.31,"endTime":1832.82,"body":"through your website and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1832.82,"endTime":1836.06,"body":"couldn't find it. But it must"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1832.82,"endTime":1836.06,"body":"have been your website that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1836.06,"endTime":1839.99,"body":"drove this, this idea this, this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1836.06,"endTime":1839.99,"body":"quote about, and I'm probably"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1839.99,"endTime":1843.68,"body":"going to mangle it, but is the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1839.99,"endTime":1843.68,"body":"you know, misunderstanding"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1843.68,"endTime":1847.52,"body":"variation is the root of all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1843.68,"endTime":1847.52,"body":"evil. Is that something on your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1847.52,"endTime":1851.18,"body":"blog site, or I just labeled as"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1847.52,"endTime":1851.18,"body":"anonymous, but"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1851.33,"endTime":1860.12,"body":"I think people have"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1851.33,"endTime":1860.12,"body":"Deming, say, something similar"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1860.12,"endTime":1869.12,"body":"to that, um, if I don't believe"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1860.12,"endTime":1869.12,"body":"that, if Deming said that I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1869.12,"endTime":1872.57,"body":"don't believe it is really what"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1869.12,"endTime":1872.57,"body":"he meant. So it's like, I"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1872.57,"endTime":1877.34,"body":"believe it could be something"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1872.57,"endTime":1877.34,"body":"that he said, but it's like,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1878.75,"endTime":1881.84,"body":"misunderstanding, variation"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1878.75,"endTime":1881.84,"body":"creates all sorts of problems."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1882.17,"endTime":1887.18,"body":"And understanding variation"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1882.17,"endTime":1887.18,"body":"helps a whole lot and solve all"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1887.18,"endTime":1891.68,"body":"sorts of issues that don't have"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1887.18,"endTime":1891.68,"body":"to become big issues. But"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1892.91,"endTime":1895.67,"body":"there's tons of other evil,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1892.91,"endTime":1895.67,"body":"there's some people who are just"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1895.67,"endTime":1900.8,"body":"your house, or anything else,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1895.67,"endTime":1900.8,"body":"okay. Um, disagreement over from"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1900.8,"endTime":1903.71,"body":"last laugh about that sort of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1900.8,"endTime":1903.71,"body":"thing."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1903.74,"endTime":1906.53,"body":"I just, ya know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1903.74,"endTime":1906.53,"body":"always get the same as I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1906.53,"endTime":1909.44,"body":"saying, like I, you know, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1906.53,"endTime":1909.44,"body":"set out quote, unquote, route,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1909.44,"endTime":1913.58,"body":"but, but that idea that you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1909.44,"endTime":1913.58,"body":"react to special cores, as if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1913.58,"endTime":1916.58,"body":"it's common causes us to react"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1913.58,"endTime":1916.58,"body":"the common cause of special"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1916.58,"endTime":1920.15,"body":"cause, right? Like, like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1916.58,"endTime":1920.15,"body":"can't, like firing that body"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1920.15,"endTime":1922.79,"body":"because a meteor hit the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1920.15,"endTime":1922.79,"body":"building, right? Like, right."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1922.88,"endTime":1925.79,"body":"But also, the thing"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1922.88,"endTime":1925.79,"body":"that I find most important about"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1925.79,"endTime":1931.73,"body":"that is, we are constantly we"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1925.79,"endTime":1931.73,"body":"constantly make, the more the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1931.73,"endTime":1938.78,"body":"most common thing is, there is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1931.73,"endTime":1938.78,"body":"variation. That doesn't mean"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1938.78,"endTime":1942.11,"body":"anything, it's just common cause"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1938.78,"endTime":1942.11,"body":"variation. But we believe it"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1942.11,"endTime":1945.14,"body":"does mean something until we"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1942.11,"endTime":1945.14,"body":"react to it. And so it's not"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1945.14,"endTime":1949.55,"body":"just that that is a problem. But"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1945.14,"endTime":1949.55,"body":"it is so common, every single"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1949.55,"endTime":1952.43,"body":"quarter, you can have that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1949.55,"endTime":1952.43,"body":"happen multiple times in the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1952.43,"endTime":1956.21,"body":"organization, so that there are"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1952.43,"endTime":1956.21,"body":"other things that are problems,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1956.27,"endTime":1958.58,"body":"but it's like, well, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1956.27,"endTime":1958.58,"body":"doesn't really happen that much."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1958.61,"endTime":1962.75,"body":"Who cares? But this is not"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1958.61,"endTime":1962.75,"body":"interesting. Variation just"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1962.75,"endTime":1967.73,"body":"happens constantly, all the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1962.75,"endTime":1967.73,"body":"time. And people constantly"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1967.76,"endTime":1970.82,"body":"react to it. And then because"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1967.76,"endTime":1970.82,"body":"they don't understand variation,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1971.12,"endTime":1977.69,"body":"they in their own mind, they see"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1971.12,"endTime":1977.69,"body":"oh, it changed, that was good."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1977.72,"endTime":1980.54,"body":"We made a difference because we"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1977.72,"endTime":1980.54,"body":"yelled at those employees, and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1980.54,"endTime":1983.9,"body":"now things aren't as bad. Like,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1980.54,"endTime":1983.9,"body":"No, it just varied around your"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1983.9,"endTime":1987.41,"body":"yelling had absolutely no effect"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":1983.9,"endTime":1987.41,"body":"other than to piss people off."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1987.59,"endTime":1990.2,"body":"Well, that was that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1987.59,"endTime":1990.2,"body":"was the thing that I finally I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1990.2,"endTime":1993.83,"body":"finally decided to take like an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1990.2,"endTime":1993.83,"body":"operations research course on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1993.83,"endTime":1998.42,"body":"course area. And then when I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1993.83,"endTime":1998.42,"body":"really understood that in sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1998.42,"endTime":2004.18,"body":"of, in process control a common"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1998.42,"endTime":2004.18,"body":"cause, you want the sort of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2004.18,"endTime":2008.8,"body":"control points to be random."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2004.18,"endTime":2008.8,"body":"That's exactly the way the world"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2008.8,"endTime":2012.85,"body":"works long as it's within some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2008.8,"endTime":2012.85,"body":"sort of upper or lower control"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2012.85,"endTime":2016.33,"body":"limit, or it's within a control"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2012.85,"endTime":2016.33,"body":"process. It should be a random"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2016.33,"endTime":2020.02,"body":"number. You know, it should be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2016.33,"endTime":2020.02,"body":"here, here here. Like I used the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2020.05,"endTime":2023.98,"body":"thermometer, right? Like, if I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2020.05,"endTime":2023.98,"body":"wanted to be from 70 to 72 at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2023.98,"endTime":2027.76,"body":"all times. And I was to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2023.98,"endTime":2027.76,"body":"basically take 15 minutes stamps"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2027.76,"endTime":2031.81,"body":"outside piece set somebody up"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2027.76,"endTime":2031.81,"body":"the door be 70 point 70, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2031.81,"endTime":2037.51,"body":"know, 1.5, it might be 70. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2031.81,"endTime":2037.51,"body":"but if I noticed that it was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2037.78,"endTime":2041.77,"body":"sort of going up in a direction,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2037.78,"endTime":2041.77,"body":"even though it was within Common"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2041.77,"endTime":2046.06,"body":"Cause then that means maybe I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2041.77,"endTime":2046.06,"body":"should get ahead of the curve"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2046.06,"endTime":2048.28,"body":"and realize that the air"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2046.06,"endTime":2048.28,"body":"conditioning broke or in each"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2048.28,"endTime":2052.57,"body":"Freon right, so I think a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2048.28,"endTime":2052.57,"body":"people misunderstand what you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2052.57,"endTime":2055.99,"body":"aware, like certain people will"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2052.57,"endTime":2055.99,"body":"say, well, some prosecutorial is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2055.99,"endTime":2060.58,"body":"basically anomalies. You know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2055.99,"endTime":2060.58,"body":"they say basically signal or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2060.58,"endTime":2063.25,"body":"noise, like Yeah, no, not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2060.58,"endTime":2063.25,"body":"really, because,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2063.309,"endTime":2066.429,"body":"right, and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2063.309,"endTime":2066.429,"body":"especially that this is easier"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2066.429,"endTime":2069.909,"body":"to see in manufacturing, which"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2066.429,"endTime":2069.909,"body":"is one reason other people don't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2069.939,"endTime":2074.469,"body":"understand it. But the the most"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2069.939,"endTime":2074.469,"body":"important thing is usually"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2074.469,"endTime":2078.399,"body":"reduce variation. It's just it's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2074.469,"endTime":2078.399,"body":"very similar in software, but"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2078.399,"endTime":2081.399,"body":"it's harder to judge because we"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2078.399,"endTime":2081.399,"body":"all understand that it's going"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2081.399,"endTime":2087.099,"body":"to vary a lot. But like if you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2081.399,"endTime":2087.099,"body":"normally have, let's say you do"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2087.099,"endTime":2089.889,"body":"somewhat of a decent job of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2087.099,"endTime":2089.889,"body":"breaking software development"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2089.889,"endTime":2093.579,"body":"into chunks that can be done."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2089.889,"endTime":2093.579,"body":"And let's say you break them"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2093.579,"endTime":2099.729,"body":"into chunks that can be done in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2093.579,"endTime":2099.729,"body":"two weeks. If what happens is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2099.729,"endTime":2102.429,"body":"you break Going into chunks. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2099.729,"endTime":2102.429,"body":"sometimes it takes a week. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2102.429,"endTime":2105.969,"body":"sometimes it takes six months,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2102.429,"endTime":2105.969,"body":"and it just varies all over the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2105.969,"endTime":2109.599,"body":"place, what you then have is,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2105.969,"endTime":2109.599,"body":"okay, we have this variation"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2109.599,"endTime":2114.789,"body":"within this thing that's random"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2109.599,"endTime":2114.789,"body":"between one week and six months,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2114.909,"endTime":2117.669,"body":"like, that's not good enough for"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2114.909,"endTime":2117.669,"body":"us to operate, we can't make"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2117.669,"endTime":2120.879,"body":"executive decisions we can make."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2117.669,"endTime":2120.879,"body":"So what we need to do is we need"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2120.879,"endTime":2127.179,"body":"to figure out how we can adjust"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2120.879,"endTime":2127.179,"body":"the system to be to have the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2127.179,"endTime":2130.899,"body":"variation be lower. And really"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2127.179,"endTime":2130.899,"body":"what it I mean, it's in that"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2130.899,"endTime":2135.009,"body":"specific example, what it pretty"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2130.899,"endTime":2135.009,"body":"much always comes down to is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2135.249,"endTime":2141.159,"body":"doing a better job of assessing"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2135.249,"endTime":2141.159,"body":"the scope of the project"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2141.339,"endTime":2149.109,"body":"beforehand. So often, the reason"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2141.339,"endTime":2149.109,"body":"why they're so inaccurate is"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2149.109,"endTime":2154.749,"body":"because they didn't get a decent"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2149.109,"endTime":2154.749,"body":"idea of what it is. Now, I think"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2154.749,"endTime":2159.129,"body":"the best way to deal with this"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2154.749,"endTime":2159.129,"body":"is agile sort of idea of, well,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2159.129,"endTime":2162.219,"body":"we don't, we're not gonna worry"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2159.129,"endTime":2162.219,"body":"about that you give it you know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2162.219,"endTime":2165.789,"body":"we'll rank the things we have to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2162.219,"endTime":2165.789,"body":"do. We'll do them in order you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2165.789,"endTime":2168.339,"body":"have you know, during this, we"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2165.789,"endTime":2168.339,"body":"can rewrite things or whatever."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2168.369,"endTime":2173.889,"body":"But don't be focused on when are"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2168.369,"endTime":2173.889,"body":"we going to deliver this 26"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2173.919,"endTime":2177.609,"body":"feature batch, focus on"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2173.919,"endTime":2177.609,"body":"delivering things as soon as"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2177.609,"endTime":2181.179,"body":"they're ready and having them"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2177.609,"endTime":2181.179,"body":"done? And if we need to do"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2181.179,"endTime":2183.789,"body":"something like meet a target in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2181.179,"endTime":2183.789,"body":"three months, what what is the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2183.789,"endTime":2186.939,"body":"minimum viable? What's the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2183.789,"endTime":2186.939,"body":"minimum piece we need for that,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2186.999,"endTime":2190.389,"body":"we'll do those first. And then"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2186.999,"endTime":2190.389,"body":"we'll add on the little pieces"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2190.419,"endTime":2195.369,"body":"as we go. And that's a different"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2190.419,"endTime":2195.369,"body":"way of dealing with a system"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2195.369,"endTime":2199.629,"body":"problem of if we try to just"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2195.369,"endTime":2199.629,"body":"say, well, here's this big, huge"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2199.629,"endTime":2203.319,"body":"project, is it gonna be done in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2199.629,"endTime":2203.319,"body":"six months? Good, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2203.529,"endTime":2205.689,"body":"but I think that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2203.529,"endTime":2205.689,"body":"like, and I would definitely"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2205.689,"endTime":2208.299,"body":"have to wind it down here pretty"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2205.689,"endTime":2208.299,"body":"soon because I have a feeling"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2208.299,"endTime":2212.469,"body":"that Zoom will cut me off at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2208.299,"endTime":2212.469,"body":"some point. But But here, but I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2212.469,"endTime":2215.469,"body":"do want to make a point, which"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2212.469,"endTime":2215.469,"body":"is that I think the problem we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2215.469,"endTime":2218.409,"body":"have in software development in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2215.469,"endTime":2218.409,"body":"general is we don't really do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2219.249,"endTime":2221.829,"body":"that sort of that variance or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2219.249,"endTime":2221.829,"body":"statistics events because"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2222.489,"endTime":2225.849,"body":"there's a woman Dominik de"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2222.489,"endTime":2225.849,"body":"grandis, right, she created this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2225.849,"endTime":2229.989,"body":"game called the DevOps can be in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2225.849,"endTime":2229.989,"body":"game. And the way we used to run"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2229.989,"endTime":2234.669,"body":"it at DevOps conferences, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2229.989,"endTime":2234.669,"body":"you get three teams, and they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2234.669,"endTime":2238.179,"body":"all have this board, and it's a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2234.669,"endTime":2238.179,"body":"board and you use dice to do the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2238.179,"endTime":2245.199,"body":"randomness and, and one team is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2238.179,"endTime":2245.199,"body":"assigned by revenue. And you do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2245.199,"endTime":2250.179,"body":"like you do sort of a day, five"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2245.199,"endTime":2250.179,"body":"to day 14, I can't remember"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2250.179,"endTime":2252.939,"body":"exactly right. So it's just sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2250.179,"endTime":2252.939,"body":"of every day, you have a stand"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2252.939,"endTime":2257.349,"body":"up and Joe quits. So you have to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2252.939,"endTime":2257.349,"body":"sort of move anyway, it's, it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2257.349,"endTime":2261.189,"body":"sort of emulates software"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2257.349,"endTime":2261.189,"body":"delivery, right. And, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2261.399,"endTime":2264.579,"body":"basically, one team was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2261.399,"endTime":2264.579,"body":"assigned, like the goal is for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2264.579,"endTime":2267.549,"body":"revenue, second team is amount"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2264.579,"endTime":2267.549,"body":"of stories. And the third team"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2267.579,"endTime":2274.329,"body":"is variation. Every time we did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2267.579,"endTime":2274.329,"body":"that game variation, I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2274.329,"endTime":2277.809,"body":"just I was joked that if we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2274.329,"endTime":2277.809,"body":"could extend it out, like five"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2277.809,"endTime":2281.949,"body":"more days, it would have won by"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2277.809,"endTime":2281.949,"body":"a mile. And it's hard because"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2281.949,"endTime":2284.769,"body":"even the people that are on my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2281.949,"endTime":2284.769,"body":"team that I'll always take"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2284.769,"endTime":2287.499,"body":"variation as Mike the team I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2284.769,"endTime":2287.499,"body":"did. They'd be like, we got to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2287.499,"endTime":2288.039,"body":"do revenue,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2288.04,"endTime":2290.62,"body":"let's move this story"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2288.04,"endTime":2290.62,"body":"over, like, oh, no, no, stay"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2290.62,"endTime":2292.0,"body":"strong, stay strong,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2292.06,"endTime":2294.49,"body":"you create, like a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2292.06,"endTime":2294.49,"body":"cute chart. And you basically,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2294.7,"endTime":2297.91,"body":"so again, I just don't think we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2294.7,"endTime":2297.91,"body":"do that enough in software"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2297.91,"endTime":2298.42,"body":"development."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2298.99,"endTime":2301.93,"body":"Yeah, and I think a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2298.99,"endTime":2301.93,"body":"whole bunch of it goes back to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2301.93,"endTime":2306.07,"body":"the bigger management issue of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2301.93,"endTime":2306.07,"body":"how the organization is managed."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2306.31,"endTime":2312.04,"body":"So that the problem, it's"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2306.31,"endTime":2312.04,"body":"challenging to get people to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2312.04,"endTime":2316.21,"body":"change no matter what. But the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2312.04,"endTime":2316.21,"body":"problem that I see is, I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2316.21,"endTime":2319.72,"body":"it's a very agile concept of,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2316.21,"endTime":2319.72,"body":"you know, give me the things you"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2319.72,"endTime":2323.56,"body":"want an order and deliver them"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2319.72,"endTime":2323.56,"body":"an order is very simple. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2323.56,"endTime":2327.16,"body":"it's very sensible. I mean, I,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2323.56,"endTime":2327.16,"body":"it's hard to come up with good"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2327.16,"endTime":2330.13,"body":"arguments against it, in my"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2327.16,"endTime":2330.13,"body":"opinion, but because the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2330.13,"endTime":2333.79,"body":"management systems are so"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2330.13,"endTime":2333.79,"body":"screwed up, often, we can't even"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2333.79,"endTime":2337.99,"body":"get that done. What I see a lot"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2333.79,"endTime":2337.99,"body":"of times is the people who"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2338.17,"endTime":2342.64,"body":"should be able to prioritize"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2338.17,"endTime":2342.64,"body":"things really can't, right. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2342.91,"endTime":2348.01,"body":"it is, instead of saying, Look,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2342.91,"endTime":2348.01,"body":"since your job, you have to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2348.01,"endTime":2351.52,"body":"figure out how to do that, in in"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2348.01,"endTime":2351.52,"body":"an organization I was in for a"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2351.52,"endTime":2354.94,"body":"long time, what I ended up"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2351.52,"endTime":2354.94,"body":"doing, even though it's in the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2355.15,"endTime":2362.44,"body":"software development piece, um,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2355.15,"endTime":2362.44,"body":"I essentially acted as the"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2362.56,"endTime":2365.56,"body":"product owner making those"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2362.56,"endTime":2365.56,"body":"decisions for them because they"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2365.56,"endTime":2368.83,"body":"couldn't do it. And then I would"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2365.56,"endTime":2368.83,"body":"talk to them as much as possible"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2368.83,"endTime":2375.52,"body":"to get them to give me you know,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2368.83,"endTime":2375.52,"body":"they're less specific ideas of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2375.52,"endTime":2378.01,"body":"what the priorities were and"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2375.52,"endTime":2378.01,"body":"where things had to be done. And"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2378.01,"endTime":2380.83,"body":"I just had to make those"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2378.01,"endTime":2380.83,"body":"judgments myself. It wasn't"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2380.83,"endTime":2383.02,"body":"perfect, because they'd get mad"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2380.83,"endTime":2383.02,"body":"at me sometimes for not getting"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2383.02,"endTime":2387.31,"body":"the thing done. They want it but"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2383.02,"endTime":2387.31,"body":"it really did work very well."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2387.73,"endTime":2390.49,"body":"Just, you know, people can"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2387.73,"endTime":2390.49,"body":"complain about everything, but"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2390.55,"endTime":2393.7,"body":"in most organizations, I would"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2390.55,"endTime":2393.7,"body":"never be allowed to happen. That"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2394.24,"endTime":2395.56,"body":"small organizations."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2395.56,"endTime":2397.99,"body":"I didn't have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2395.56,"endTime":2397.99,"body":"somebody like this, that sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2397.99,"endTime":2401.23,"body":"view the system's thinking this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2397.99,"endTime":2401.23,"body":"sort of All those combinations."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2401.23,"endTime":2404.32,"body":"Yeah. Well, this has been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2401.23,"endTime":2404.32,"body":"fantastic. Hopefully, it's been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2404.32,"endTime":2407.8,"body":"fun for you too. But yes, it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2404.32,"endTime":2407.8,"body":"was, we should do this again."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2408.19,"endTime":2411.22,"body":"Anyway, we'll definitely put"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2408.19,"endTime":2411.22,"body":"links all over the place. I love"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2411.22,"endTime":2413.98,"body":"the fact that you I'm trying to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2411.22,"endTime":2413.98,"body":"expand my audience too, because"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2413.98,"endTime":2417.13,"body":"all my audience are like DevOps"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2413.98,"endTime":2417.13,"body":"people. Right? Right. So this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2417.13,"endTime":2419.65,"body":"will be great for me for at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2417.13,"endTime":2419.65,"body":"least to sort of see some of my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2419.65,"endTime":2422.83,"body":"other blogs you know, that I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2419.65,"endTime":2422.83,"body":"guess that I've done with like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2422.83,"endTime":2425.83,"body":"the hawthorn guy with doors,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2422.83,"endTime":2425.83,"body":"Quinn, and and then some of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2425.83,"endTime":2429.34,"body":"people that probably follow you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2425.83,"endTime":2429.34,"body":"that, like, want to know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2429.34,"endTime":2432.07,"body":"though, hey, by the way, this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2429.34,"endTime":2432.07,"body":"stuff's happening in Amazon."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2432.07,"endTime":2436.72,"body":"It's like happening. You know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2432.07,"endTime":2436.72,"body":"so that's kind of cool. So, so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2436.72,"endTime":2439.84,"body":"yeah, the curious cat is I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2436.72,"endTime":2439.84,"body":"that people should,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2440.05,"endTime":2443.44,"body":"yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2440.05,"endTime":2443.44,"body":"And then I I have John"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2443.44,"endTime":2449.11,"body":"hunter.com, because the site"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2443.44,"endTime":2449.11,"body":"that has thing that has sort of"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2449.11,"endTime":2453.49,"body":"ties everything I'm doing"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2449.11,"endTime":2453.49,"body":"together and has like links to"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2453.49,"endTime":2455.77,"body":"me elsewhere on the web."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2457.12,"endTime":2458.08,"body":"Brilliant. Oh, thank"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2458.08,"endTime":2461.08,"body":"you so much, sir."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2458.08,"endTime":2461.08,"body":"This was fun and, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2461.11,"endTime":2464.47,"body":"definitely, you know, we will"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2461.11,"endTime":2464.47,"body":"get some breathing room, but I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2464.47,"endTime":2467.2,"body":"definitely gonna poke you down"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2464.47,"endTime":2467.2,"body":"the road again. Maybe try to do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2467.2,"endTime":2468.04,"body":"this again. So,"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2468.28,"endTime":2470.65,"body":"again, sounds"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2468.28,"endTime":2470.65,"body":"great. I enjoyed it, and I will"},{"speaker":"John Hunter","startTime":2470.65,"endTime":2472.03,"body":"look forward to doing it again."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2472.33,"endTime":2474.07,"body":"Alright, thanks."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2472.33,"endTime":2474.07,"body":"Cool."}]}