{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":8.01,"endTime":11.37,"body":"As jello skin this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":8.01,"endTime":11.37,"body":"is another Demi profound podcast"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":11.37,"endTime":17.19,"body":"and I'm an old old friend here."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":11.37,"endTime":17.19,"body":"We go way, way back. And Rob,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":17.19,"endTime":20.16,"body":"you want to kind of go let me"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":17.19,"endTime":20.16,"body":"actually let me tell the story"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":20.16,"endTime":23.76,"body":"first. So I, you know, when I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":20.16,"endTime":23.76,"body":"first sort of moved over from"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":23.76,"endTime":27.15,"body":"all this heavyweight Tivoli"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":23.76,"endTime":27.15,"body":"stuff I was doing, I started"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":27.15,"endTime":31.11,"body":"blogging and there was a couple"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":27.15,"endTime":31.11,"body":"of people just started sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":31.11,"endTime":34.38,"body":"noticing what I was doing, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":31.11,"endTime":34.38,"body":"know, Damon Edwards people know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":34.89,"endTime":39.42,"body":"you know, marking CO and I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":34.89,"endTime":39.42,"body":"somehow you got you reached out"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":39.42,"endTime":40.65,"body":"to me in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":42.27,"endTime":44.76,"body":"Tivoli trainer. Oh,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":42.27,"endTime":44.76,"body":"every"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":45.389,"endTime":49.319,"body":"way that I wrote a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":45.389,"endTime":49.319,"body":"song for you. They may Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":49.32,"endTime":51.99,"body":"but you had you hit"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":49.32,"endTime":51.99,"body":"that blog."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":52.95,"endTime":56.4,"body":"Oh, guys, yes. With"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":52.95,"endTime":56.4,"body":"Michael Cote."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":56.91,"endTime":62.49,"body":"No, even before"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":56.91,"endTime":62.49,"body":"that you had a solo thing. God,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":62.49,"endTime":64.71,"body":"but you were writing stuff. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":67.89,"endTime":70.08,"body":"yeah, we had this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":67.89,"endTime":70.08,"body":"whole cool thing going I'm like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":70.08,"endTime":73.08,"body":"oh, man, the IT skeptic. He's a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":70.08,"endTime":73.08,"body":"cool dude. And he knows who I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":73.08,"endTime":75.57,"body":"am. This is pretty awesome."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":73.08,"endTime":75.57,"body":"Anyway, I'm gonna head to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":75.57,"endTime":77.37,"body":"myself. Rob. Go ahead and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":75.57,"endTime":77.37,"body":"introduce yourself."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":79.14,"endTime":83.46,"body":"Yeah, yeah. So"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":79.14,"endTime":83.46,"body":"Robin England, yeah. Retired,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":83.46,"endTime":90.36,"body":"the it skipped in 2000. And a"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":83.46,"endTime":90.36,"body":"year ago after 15 years of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":90.36,"endTime":96.39,"body":"blogging, but that I'm in New"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":90.36,"endTime":96.39,"body":"Zealand, right, I'm on the last"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":96.39,"endTime":102.51,"body":"rock on the planet. And, and,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":96.39,"endTime":102.51,"body":"and so I used to sit in a little"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":102.96,"endTime":107.4,"body":"three foot or four foot by four"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":102.96,"endTime":107.4,"body":"foot office in a village on the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":107.4,"endTime":110.52,"body":"coast of New Zealand and connect"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":107.4,"endTime":110.52,"body":"to the world I used to do my"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":110.52,"endTime":114.42,"body":"header on this new with this new"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":110.52,"endTime":114.42,"body":"thing called blogging you know,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":114.42,"endTime":118.5,"body":"on this fairly new thing called"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":114.42,"endTime":118.5,"body":"the internet and, and, and I was"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":118.5,"endTime":122.55,"body":"exploring it and I found you"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":118.5,"endTime":122.55,"body":"somehow anyway, but there was"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":122.55,"endTime":125.1,"body":"this guy called John Willis"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":122.55,"endTime":125.1,"body":"writing this cool stuff and we"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":125.1,"endTime":129.18,"body":"connected and, and that was you"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":125.1,"endTime":129.18,"body":"were still actively training"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":129.18,"endTime":129.51,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":129.51,"endTime":132.12,"body":"It was way way"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":129.51,"endTime":132.12,"body":"back. But I think I liked your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":132.18,"endTime":134.43,"body":"which was I still want you to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":132.18,"endTime":134.43,"body":"give me a little more bio. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":134.7,"endTime":137.58,"body":"like you didn't take any"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":134.7,"endTime":137.58,"body":"bullcrap. And you let the one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":137.58,"endTime":140.19,"body":"thing about the it scale."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":137.58,"endTime":140.19,"body":"That's, I guess why? Like, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":140.19,"endTime":143.1,"body":"I dug you so much early on. Like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":140.19,"endTime":143.1,"body":"you would just call them out."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":143.31,"endTime":146.67,"body":"You know, if somebody a vendor"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":143.31,"endTime":146.67,"body":"was saying this, you had that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":146.67,"endTime":148.05,"body":"cat? What was the character yet?"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":148.8,"endTime":152.88,"body":"Oh, um, um, the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":148.8,"endTime":152.88,"body":"there was several characters,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":152.88,"endTime":157.71,"body":"but there was the the folk"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":152.88,"endTime":157.71,"body":"singer called rambling, rambling"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":157.71,"endTime":159.54,"body":"kid. Realism,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":159.69,"endTime":161.46,"body":"or genuine there"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":159.69,"endTime":161.46,"body":"was funky or something that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":161.46,"endTime":163.74,"body":"called bullcrap on people. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":161.46,"endTime":163.74,"body":"think you have one that was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":163.74,"endTime":164.22,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":164.22,"endTime":167.58,"body":"Yeah, that was"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":164.22,"endTime":167.58,"body":"smoky. That I'm forgetting it."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":167.61,"endTime":172.89,"body":"Gosh, Melissa, can you bleep"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":167.61,"endTime":172.89,"body":"that? I'm forgetting at all. Um,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":173.25,"endTime":180.24,"body":"yeah, it was the like the smoky"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":173.25,"endTime":180.24,"body":"the beer. Yeah. Oh, God chokey,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":180.24,"endTime":180.75,"body":"the gym."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":181.86,"endTime":184.32,"body":"And he would just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":181.86,"endTime":184.32,"body":"call on an X actually, that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":184.32,"endTime":189.3,"body":"mostly how we got because I just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":184.32,"endTime":189.3,"body":"moved over from I think it might"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":189.3,"endTime":192.06,"body":"well I don't know. But I was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":189.3,"endTime":192.06,"body":"like, calling out the sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":192.06,"endTime":196.02,"body":"big for the BMCs and all those"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":192.06,"endTime":196.02,"body":"guys. And then I started seeing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":196.02,"endTime":199.41,"body":"your stuff about like, Oh, this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":196.02,"endTime":199.41,"body":"guy's calling him out. Man. He's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":199.41,"endTime":202.71,"body":"like, not letting them get away"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":199.41,"endTime":202.71,"body":"with like, our product does"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":202.71,"endTime":206.49,"body":"this. Yeah, need to be like the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":202.71,"endTime":206.49,"body":"chokey guy would say, word, I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":206.49,"endTime":207.24,"body":"gonna it was pretty"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":207.24,"endTime":209.73,"body":"awesome, actually."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":207.24,"endTime":209.73,"body":"Well, I just retired from"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":209.73,"endTime":215.58,"body":"Pindell. And so I knew all the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":209.73,"endTime":215.58,"body":"tricks, you know, and in in and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":215.58,"endTime":220.02,"body":"recognized all the, some of the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":215.58,"endTime":220.02,"body":"vendors. And the other one was,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":220.02,"endTime":221.76,"body":"of course, the sort of idol."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":222.06,"endTime":223.86,"body":"Yeah, that's what's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":222.06,"endTime":223.86,"body":"your Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":224.94,"endTime":227.91,"body":"What do we call"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":224.94,"endTime":227.91,"body":"them, you know, but the idol,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":228.81,"endTime":236.43,"body":"Military Industrial Complex."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":228.81,"endTime":236.43,"body":"That try calling that out as"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":236.43,"endTime":239.28,"body":"well, because I was deeply"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":236.43,"endTime":239.28,"body":"immersed in that community so"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":239.34,"endTime":245.79,"body":"that the blog got me wonderful"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":239.34,"endTime":245.79,"body":"network of people, yourself"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":245.79,"endTime":249.9,"body":"included, and, and I was"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":245.79,"endTime":249.9,"body":"throwing rocks at all also"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":249.93,"endTime":253.5,"body":"calling bullshit. And so"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":249.93,"endTime":253.5,"body":"including agile and DevOps and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":253.5,"endTime":255.3,"body":"you didn't like that very much."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":253.5,"endTime":255.3,"body":"We got"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":255.3,"endTime":257.73,"body":"we had to wait one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":255.3,"endTime":257.73,"body":"year. I mean, we were for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":257.97,"endTime":261.57,"body":"everybody who listens here we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":257.97,"endTime":261.57,"body":"are geared here friends on Rob"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":261.57,"endTime":263.67,"body":"will bring me a little unique,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":261.57,"endTime":263.67,"body":"you know, immediate a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":263.67,"endTime":266.46,"body":"conference, he brings me some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":263.67,"endTime":266.46,"body":"little unique sort of chocolate"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":266.46,"endTime":268.98,"body":"or something. So he's, he's just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":266.46,"endTime":268.98,"body":"a sweetheart of guy, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":268.98,"endTime":272.7,"body":"he looks like a tough cat. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":268.98,"endTime":272.7,"body":"before one year, we, we got into"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":272.7,"endTime":276.84,"body":"it a little bit. Like, it was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":272.7,"endTime":276.84,"body":"funny. So you were questioning"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":276.84,"endTime":280.02,"body":"DevOps. So the thing I loved"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":276.84,"endTime":280.02,"body":"about you, is you questioned"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":280.02,"endTime":283.2,"body":"everything I just kept the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":280.02,"endTime":283.2,"body":"concept was, I ain't gonna just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":283.2,"endTime":286.86,"body":"accept just because everybody"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":283.2,"endTime":286.86,"body":"else likes it. I want to figure"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":286.86,"endTime":289.86,"body":"it out. And I was frustrated"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":286.86,"endTime":289.86,"body":"with you because I kept trying"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":289.86,"endTime":293.37,"body":"to explain do this, that our"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":289.86,"endTime":293.37,"body":"stuff is good. And then in one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":293.37,"endTime":296.46,"body":"day, you sort of said, Okay, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":293.37,"endTime":296.46,"body":"get it. And then I was mad at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":296.46,"endTime":299.04,"body":"you. But the thing I realized,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":296.46,"endTime":299.04,"body":"wait a minute. He's the it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":299.04,"endTime":302.34,"body":"skeptic there. There's no other"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":299.04,"endTime":302.34,"body":"way he would accept DevOps,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":302.73,"endTime":306.51,"body":"other than taking a long haul,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":302.73,"endTime":306.51,"body":"critical, you know, critical"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":306.51,"endTime":309.96,"body":"thinking analysis of it. So, so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":306.51,"endTime":309.96,"body":"at the end of day, I was like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":309.96,"endTime":312.93,"body":"geez, that's what he does. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":309.96,"endTime":312.93,"body":"like, Why was I getting upset?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":312.93,"endTime":314.76,"body":"Um, so yeah, we had, and now"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":314.76,"endTime":318.51,"body":"he's finally got"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":314.76,"endTime":318.51,"body":"it. Yeah. So. So it was you and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":318.51,"endTime":322.65,"body":"Jane and Jesus were probably the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":318.51,"endTime":322.65,"body":"three key influences that"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":322.65,"endTime":327.0,"body":"eventually got through my thick"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":322.65,"endTime":327.0,"body":"head. And I had my sort of road"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":327.0,"endTime":332.61,"body":"to Damascus moment. That it was"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":327.0,"endTime":332.61,"body":"anti fragility it was just"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":332.61,"endTime":335.13,"body":"writing about anti fragility was"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":332.61,"endTime":335.13,"body":"the straw that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":337.05,"endTime":339.39,"body":"really got me mad."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":337.05,"endTime":339.39,"body":"I would write these like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":339.39,"endTime":343.77,"body":"know, four page explanations why"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":339.39,"endTime":343.77,"body":"it was good. And he just said,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":344.22,"endTime":346.5,"body":"you know, he made a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":344.22,"endTime":346.5,"body":"recommendation. Like he wrote a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":346.5,"endTime":350.73,"body":"four line thing about it,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":346.5,"endTime":350.73,"body":"fragility and anti fragile, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":350.73,"endTime":354.06,"body":"know, Nyssa Talibs. But any"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":350.73,"endTime":354.06,"body":"like, Oh, I get it. I'm like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":354.06,"endTime":357.18,"body":"wait a minute. You're trying to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":354.06,"endTime":357.18,"body":"get in"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":357.18,"endTime":359.97,"body":"there. But yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":357.18,"endTime":359.97,"body":"quote you all the time, man. And"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":359.97,"endTime":364.38,"body":"I, and I quote you mostly from"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":359.97,"endTime":364.38,"body":"when we were debating? Oh, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":364.38,"endTime":368.01,"body":"go. Right. So the arguments you"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":364.38,"endTime":368.01,"body":"used on me I quote all the time"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":368.01,"endTime":372.3,"body":"on. One of my favorites is"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":368.01,"endTime":372.3,"body":"listen, we can get a fix into"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":372.3,"endTime":375.09,"body":"production faster than you can"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":372.3,"endTime":375.09,"body":"find around for your emergency"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":375.09,"endTime":377.97,"body":"cabinet meeting, right was one"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":375.09,"endTime":377.97,"body":"of the things you said to me"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":377.97,"endTime":381.33,"body":"years and years ago that stuck"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":377.97,"endTime":381.33,"body":"as an eyeful guy, and I use that"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":381.33,"endTime":385.68,"body":"on the list as all the time. And"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":381.33,"endTime":385.68,"body":"yeah, there's a number of John"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":385.68,"endTime":389.46,"body":"Willis quotes that I use. And"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":385.68,"endTime":389.46,"body":"they all come from when we were"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":389.46,"endTime":390.33,"body":"talking about yes,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":390.33,"endTime":392.43,"body":"the debate. I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":390.33,"endTime":392.43,"body":"debate is cool, right? Like,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":393.0,"endTime":395.34,"body":"the best ideas are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":393.0,"endTime":395.34,"body":"forged in fire"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":395.46,"endTime":397.2,"body":"that totally Well,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":395.46,"endTime":397.2,"body":"you know, I know what I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":397.2,"endTime":399.18,"body":"thinking about. And I still want"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":397.2,"endTime":399.18,"body":"to circle back on a little bit,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":399.21,"endTime":401.22,"body":"Korea, and I want to talk about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":399.21,"endTime":401.22,"body":"some of the cool stuff you do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":401.22,"endTime":407.61,"body":"now. But you had a lot of like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":401.22,"endTime":407.61,"body":"respect and a deep understanding"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":407.61,"endTime":411.81,"body":"of idol. I tell sorry, I told"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":407.61,"endTime":411.81,"body":"service management before sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":411.81,"endTime":416.1,"body":"of DevOps came into vogue. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":411.81,"endTime":416.1,"body":"there's always been this debate"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":416.13,"endTime":419.25,"body":"of the, you know, I think when"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":416.13,"endTime":419.25,"body":"DevOps came in, it was like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":419.25,"endTime":426.0,"body":"agile, you know, our idol is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":419.25,"endTime":426.0,"body":"stinking dog. But, you know, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":426.0,"endTime":428.55,"body":"Ben Walker talks about, hey,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":426.0,"endTime":428.55,"body":"wait a minute, you know, have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":428.55,"endTime":431.91,"body":"you really looked at the good"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":428.55,"endTime":431.91,"body":"parts of AI? I mean, I mean, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":431.91,"endTime":436.68,"body":"dogmatic the, sort of the way we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":431.91,"endTime":436.68,"body":"were approaching the, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":436.68,"endTime":440.88,"body":"the AI, at least since you said,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":436.68,"endTime":440.88,"body":"obviously, was wrong, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":440.88,"endTime":444.93,"body":"clearly, there was some good"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":440.88,"endTime":444.93,"body":"stuff, right, that is value"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":444.93,"endTime":446.1,"body":"today, or none at all?"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":446.879,"endTime":449.579,"body":"Oh, yeah. And I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":446.879,"endTime":449.579,"body":"think, I mean, there is a"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":449.579,"endTime":453.899,"body":"cultural divide of some kind"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":449.579,"endTime":453.899,"body":"that would be interesting to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":453.899,"endTime":458.909,"body":"unpack even more but and still"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":453.899,"endTime":458.909,"body":"is, you know, that service"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":458.909,"endTime":464.429,"body":"management likes to make things"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":458.909,"endTime":464.429,"body":"structured and orderly in not"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":464.429,"endTime":467.249,"body":"necessarily creative and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":464.429,"endTime":467.249,"body":"dynamic. You know, there is that"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":467.249,"endTime":470.159,"body":"some sort of really deep"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":467.249,"endTime":470.159,"body":"cultural tension, there's some,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":470.429,"endTime":478.259,"body":"but I didn't want you know, Can"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":470.429,"endTime":478.259,"body":"I do a promo? Michael for man."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":480.269,"endTime":486.539,"body":"And, and in that, took them"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":480.269,"endTime":486.539,"body":"until 2019, to suddenly realize"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":486.539,"endTime":489.839,"body":"there's something called Agile"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":486.539,"endTime":489.839,"body":"so they're only they're only two"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":489.839,"endTime":492.899,"body":"decades behind the game. And to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":489.839,"endTime":492.899,"body":"realize there's something called"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":492.899,"endTime":499.919,"body":"DevOps but the high velocity it"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":492.899,"endTime":499.919,"body":"book Max smallie is just I've"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":499.919,"endTime":506.699,"body":"always viewed DevOps man, it's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":499.919,"endTime":506.699,"body":"just that finally caught up. And"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":506.729,"endTime":513.749,"body":"and, and I guess that's to be"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":506.729,"endTime":513.749,"body":"expected when what you've got as"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":513.749,"endTime":518.399,"body":"a generally accepted practices"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":513.749,"endTime":518.399,"body":"framework e documenting what is"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":518.399,"endTime":521.369,"body":"mainstream so right, you're"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":518.399,"endTime":521.369,"body":"always gonna be a lagging"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":521.369,"endTime":523.889,"body":"indicator, but Jesus, it's a"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":521.369,"endTime":523.889,"body":"lagging indicator was pretty"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":523.889,"endTime":529.049,"body":"lagging for a while. Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":523.889,"endTime":529.049,"body":"But, um, but even so, yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":529.049,"endTime":533.909,"body":"think there are really good"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":529.049,"endTime":533.909,"body":"ideas in the the way I it's hard"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":533.909,"endTime":537.929,"body":"to articulate, but the way I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":533.909,"endTime":537.929,"body":"usually try and do it is to say,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":538.529,"endTime":542.399,"body":"automation, right? You can only"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":538.529,"endTime":542.399,"body":"automate that which is defined"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":542.399,"endTime":548.189,"body":"and repeatable. Okay. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":542.399,"endTime":548.189,"body":"Yeah, no, totally. Yeah. And and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":548.189,"endTime":550.829,"body":"what's it all about? It's all"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":548.189,"endTime":550.829,"body":"about making processes defined"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":550.829,"endTime":553.529,"body":"and repeatable. So there has to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":550.829,"endTime":553.529,"body":"be some sort of cross over there"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":553.529,"endTime":557.399,"body":"somewhere where these people are"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":553.529,"endTime":557.399,"body":"about standardizing work. And"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":557.399,"endTime":564.149,"body":"it's standardized work that we"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":557.399,"endTime":564.149,"body":"can automate. So so there's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":564.149,"endTime":570.119,"body":"knowledge there about how do we"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":564.149,"endTime":570.119,"body":"find the standard component of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":570.119,"endTime":576.449,"body":"our processes that that are"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":570.119,"endTime":576.449,"body":"amenable to being repeatable"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":576.449,"endTime":578.639,"body":"transactions that we can then"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":576.449,"endTime":578.639,"body":"yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":578.7,"endTime":581.52,"body":"I mean, it's always"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":578.7,"endTime":581.52,"body":"the Wild West and I don't want"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":581.52,"endTime":584.61,"body":"to go too deep in the Wardley"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":581.52,"endTime":584.61,"body":"stuff, but like he, Simon"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":584.61,"endTime":588.03,"body":"Wardley has a structure it shows"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":584.61,"endTime":588.03,"body":"you sort of, you know, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":588.03,"endTime":590.52,"body":"evolution here, right. So you do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":588.03,"endTime":590.52,"body":"always come"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":590.97,"endTime":593.1,"body":"here are pioneers"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":590.97,"endTime":593.1,"body":"and then you have planners."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":593.73,"endTime":595.2,"body":"But you know, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":593.73,"endTime":595.2,"body":"other thing too, I was just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":595.2,"endTime":598.05,"body":"thinking you said this, like in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":595.2,"endTime":598.05,"body":"the early days of DevOps, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":598.05,"endTime":601.59,"body":"people think of agile and DevOps"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":598.05,"endTime":601.59,"body":"Just a beautiful marriage and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":601.59,"endTime":605.88,"body":"everybody gets along. But I go"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":601.59,"endTime":605.88,"body":"into large corporation and sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":605.88,"endTime":609.0,"body":"of agile coaches at all. I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":605.88,"endTime":609.0,"body":"they were firewalls, I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":609.0,"endTime":612.45,"body":"not, you know, not, you know, IP"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":609.0,"endTime":612.45,"body":"firewalls, they were firewalls"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":612.45,"endTime":616.41,"body":"for getting DevOps in an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":612.45,"endTime":616.41,"body":"organization. So, so I don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":616.41,"endTime":620.7,"body":"think people either realize that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":616.41,"endTime":620.7,"body":"now, because it is now sort of a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":620.7,"endTime":624.45,"body":"love of fast and congruent"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":620.7,"endTime":624.45,"body":"discussions. But back, when I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":624.45,"endTime":627.81,"body":"was first going into large"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":624.45,"endTime":627.81,"body":"places, I, I'd have to go to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":627.81,"endTime":630.93,"body":"battle with the sort of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":627.81,"endTime":630.93,"body":"Agile coaches in a large"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":630.93,"endTime":631.71,"body":"corporation."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":631.98,"endTime":634.05,"body":"And it would it"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":631.98,"endTime":634.05,"body":"would do, it would do a lot of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":634.05,"endTime":636.99,"body":"heads in if I said that in a lot"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":634.05,"endTime":636.99,"body":"of ways because of that"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":636.99,"endTime":640.17,"body":"standardized, repeatable thing."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":636.99,"endTime":640.17,"body":"DevOps is intellectually"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":640.17,"endTime":642.57,"body":"sometimes a lot closer to white"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":640.17,"endTime":642.57,"body":"or than it is to HR."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":643.41,"endTime":645.45,"body":"I agree with that."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":643.41,"endTime":645.45,"body":"Because I mean, first off the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":645.48,"endTime":649.32,"body":"like, it's always been lopsided"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":645.48,"endTime":649.32,"body":"on operations for good or bad,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":649.32,"endTime":652.86,"body":"right. And then, you know, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":649.32,"endTime":652.86,"body":"way idol originally was, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":652.86,"endTime":659.31,"body":"know, so I first got into this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":652.86,"endTime":659.31,"body":"idol back in in the mid 90s, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":659.31,"endTime":662.13,"body":"know, maybe and, you know, back"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":659.31,"endTime":662.13,"body":"then it was more of a vendor"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":662.13,"endTime":664.92,"body":"thing, but like, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":662.13,"endTime":664.92,"body":"somebody described as we got to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":664.92,"endTime":668.61,"body":"sort of idol version two, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":664.92,"endTime":668.61,"body":"like I forget, all this was said"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":668.61,"endTime":671.58,"body":"that, you know, when you argued"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":668.61,"endTime":671.58,"body":"against it this way, pre agile"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":671.64,"endTime":676.98,"body":"pre DevOps really are so agile"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":671.64,"endTime":676.98,"body":"as mainstream. He said, like, if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":676.98,"endTime":681.72,"body":"you have chaos, something like I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":676.98,"endTime":681.72,"body":"don't least whether you play"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":681.87,"endTime":685.08,"body":"with the sort of like it, love"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":681.87,"endTime":685.08,"body":"it or hate it, it was a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":685.08,"endTime":690.78,"body":"prescription for a step function"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":685.08,"endTime":690.78,"body":"to sort of, you know, we meet"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":691.11,"endTime":695.49,"body":"remediating cats. And so in that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":691.11,"endTime":695.49,"body":"sense, it saved us place and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":696.09,"endTime":696.54,"body":"yeah,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":697.26,"endTime":700.56,"body":"the little black"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":697.26,"endTime":700.56,"body":"and white book, right from Jean,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":700.56,"endTime":705.72,"body":"and Kevin and George, right."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":700.56,"endTime":705.72,"body":"Yeah. Cabo,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":705.959,"endTime":707.609,"body":"this one is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":705.959,"endTime":707.609,"body":"visible. opsbase"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":708.0,"endTime":710.28,"body":"digital locks."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":708.0,"endTime":710.28,"body":"Yeah. I mean, that was very"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":710.28,"endTime":712.14,"body":"audible ish. Oh, yeah. No, they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":712.14,"endTime":714.0,"body":"weren't they came"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":712.14,"endTime":714.0,"body":"for that. I mean, genius"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":714.66,"endTime":717.21,"body":"on into DevOps at all."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":714.66,"endTime":717.21,"body":"No, no,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":717.329,"endTime":719.909,"body":"I don't. I saw it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":717.329,"endTime":719.909,"body":"back. But it was at South by"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":719.909,"endTime":724.769,"body":"Southwest in like 2009 or 10,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":719.909,"endTime":724.769,"body":"where I met Jean, and he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":724.769,"endTime":728.159,"body":"still on the fence on DevOps."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":724.769,"endTime":728.159,"body":"And I said, Do think of DevOps"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":728.159,"endTime":731.369,"body":"like a lighthouse. So he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":728.159,"endTime":731.369,"body":"ready to go battle like me, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":731.369,"endTime":735.059,"body":"you would, and I said, think of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":731.369,"endTime":735.059,"body":"DevOps as a lighthouse. That"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":735.059,"endTime":738.269,"body":"brings operators back to shore."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":735.059,"endTime":738.269,"body":"And it's just, like, dropped"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":738.269,"endTime":740.579,"body":"this drink and said, I get it,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":738.269,"endTime":740.579,"body":"you know?"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":741.449,"endTime":749.699,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":741.449,"endTime":749.699,"body":"So I like to another thing I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":749.699,"endTime":753.239,"body":"like to say about it is,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":749.699,"endTime":753.239,"body":"intellectually there's nothing"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":753.239,"endTime":757.229,"body":"wrong with I saw the problem is"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":753.239,"endTime":757.229,"body":"when the bureaucrats get their"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":757.229,"endTime":762.839,"body":"hands on it. Yeah. And I even to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":757.229,"endTime":762.839,"body":"really be dangerous, say the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":762.839,"endTime":765.479,"body":"same thing about Scaled Agile"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":762.839,"endTime":765.479,"body":"Framework that probably"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":765.479,"endTime":768.119,"body":"intellectually, there's nothing"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":765.479,"endTime":768.119,"body":"wrong with it. Oh, my God, when"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":768.119,"endTime":771.359,"body":"the bureaucrats get home. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":768.119,"endTime":771.359,"body":"And you're in trouble,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":771.42,"endTime":775.59,"body":"unfortunately, that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":771.42,"endTime":775.59,"body":"like that is sort of a behavior"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":775.59,"endTime":779.37,"body":"of humans, right. Like, you can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":775.59,"endTime":779.37,"body":"take anything. And then like, if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":779.37,"endTime":783.42,"body":"you sort of, as it evolves, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":779.37,"endTime":783.42,"body":"mean, one of the things that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":783.42,"endTime":786.03,"body":"DevOps has been creating"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":783.42,"endTime":786.03,"body":"successful, I mean, I, I'll go"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":786.03,"endTime":790.14,"body":"back to attribute patching the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":786.03,"endTime":790.14,"body":"bar had a presentation. It's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":790.17,"endTime":794.58,"body":"great. It's one of the better"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":790.17,"endTime":794.58,"body":"presentations about why DevOps"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":794.58,"endTime":798.96,"body":"been successful. And it was in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":794.58,"endTime":798.96,"body":"Austin, I think it was 13. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":799.5,"endTime":802.83,"body":"I'll try to put a shout out. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":799.5,"endTime":802.83,"body":"he talked about how he he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":802.83,"endTime":806.79,"body":"stewarded DevOps, and he was,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":802.83,"endTime":806.79,"body":"you know, he wasn't like a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":806.79,"endTime":810.72,"body":"benevolent dictator, he just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":806.79,"endTime":810.72,"body":"put, he tapped the guardrails"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":810.72,"endTime":813.51,"body":"all the way along the way. So it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":810.72,"endTime":813.51,"body":"never, for the longest time it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":813.51,"endTime":815.94,"body":"had this sort of like, what is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":813.51,"endTime":815.94,"body":"DevOps? Well, there is no"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":815.94,"endTime":819.09,"body":"definition, you know, but at the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":815.94,"endTime":819.09,"body":"same time, you know, so it had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":819.09,"endTime":823.98,"body":"this freedom to evolve, but he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":819.09,"endTime":823.98,"body":"put some guardrails on it soft"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":823.98,"endTime":827.4,"body":"guardrails. And I think that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":823.98,"endTime":827.4,"body":"why it's been incredibly"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":827.4,"endTime":830.91,"body":"successful for so many years."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":827.4,"endTime":830.91,"body":"Totally, totally, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":830.94,"endTime":831.63,"body":"another area of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":832.229,"endTime":836.309,"body":"work ahead. And so"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":832.229,"endTime":836.309,"body":"represents, I mean, one of the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":836.309,"endTime":840.329,"body":"things that I, I, where I work"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":836.309,"endTime":840.329,"body":"most at the moment is what I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":840.329,"endTime":842.729,"body":"would just call new ways of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":840.329,"endTime":842.729,"body":"working or better ways to work."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":843.959,"endTime":848.939,"body":"And, and DevOps so represents"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":843.959,"endTime":848.939,"body":"that in the way that it is"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":848.939,"endTime":853.409,"body":"emergent, collective,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":848.939,"endTime":853.409,"body":"unstructured, and totally"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":853.409,"endTime":861.599,"body":"undefined in such a modern way"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":853.409,"endTime":861.599,"body":"of creating a movement with it's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":861.599,"endTime":863.579,"body":"very modern in that sense"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":863.61,"endTime":866.61,"body":"that yeah, no, it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":863.61,"endTime":866.61,"body":"was certainly born out of that,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":866.61,"endTime":869.52,"body":"you know, depending on how you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":866.61,"endTime":869.52,"body":"how do you construct the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":869.52,"endTime":872.25,"body":"evolution of DevOps, which, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":869.52,"endTime":872.25,"body":"know, I've tried to do, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":872.25,"endTime":876.06,"body":"there's different variants, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":872.25,"endTime":876.06,"body":"it was, you know, mostly born"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":876.06,"endTime":880.44,"body":"out of emerging operational"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":876.06,"endTime":880.44,"body":"things, you know, so that brings"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":880.44,"endTime":882.57,"body":"me that, like, the damning"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":880.44,"endTime":882.57,"body":"podcast, we talked a little bit"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":882.57,"endTime":885.75,"body":"before, you know, so, um, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":882.57,"endTime":885.75,"body":"know, you know, what are your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":885.75,"endTime":888.51,"body":"thoughts about sort of Demings"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":885.75,"endTime":888.51,"body":"relevance now, and then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":888.51,"endTime":890.67,"body":"certainly, as the conversation"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":888.51,"endTime":890.67,"body":"we just talked about things like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":890.67,"endTime":894.9,"body":"idle and DevOps and an agile"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":890.67,"endTime":894.9,"body":"Flume. What are your thoughts"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":894.9,"endTime":898.44,"body":"about him, you know, in his we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":894.9,"endTime":898.44,"body":"sit here in 2022"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":899.31,"endTime":901.32,"body":"Yeah, it was As I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":899.31,"endTime":901.32,"body":"was saying to you earlier, I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":901.32,"endTime":906.87,"body":"wouldn't say I'm an academic and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":901.32,"endTime":906.87,"body":"terribly versed in any of the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":906.87,"endTime":913.17,"body":"great thinkers. But you're"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":906.87,"endTime":913.17,"body":"ready. Thank you. You say this"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":913.17,"endTime":920.34,"body":"was just things. I recognize,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":913.17,"endTime":920.34,"body":"you know, deeming and Drucker"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":920.94,"endTime":925.62,"body":"probably as two of the biggest"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":920.94,"endTime":925.62,"body":"influences on the stuff we do"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":925.62,"endTime":933.39,"body":"carry an eye. And still, and and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":925.62,"endTime":933.39,"body":"you know, when you do go and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":933.39,"endTime":940.62,"body":"read him, he was unbelievably"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":933.39,"endTime":940.62,"body":"visionary. I don't know enough"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":940.62,"endTime":944.1,"body":"about him as to say in the work"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":940.62,"endTime":944.1,"body":"he did, I sometimes get the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":944.1,"endTime":948.12,"body":"feeling that he was as much"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":944.1,"endTime":948.12,"body":"communicator as original"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":948.12,"endTime":950.55,"body":"thinker. I mean, he drew a lot"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":948.12,"endTime":950.55,"body":"of ideas from other people."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":950.91,"endTime":955.5,"body":"Right, and then communicated"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":950.91,"endTime":955.5,"body":"them brilliantly. I don't know"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":955.5,"endTime":957.81,"body":"enough about him to unpack how"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":955.5,"endTime":957.81,"body":"much of that was actually his"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":957.81,"endTime":960.6,"body":"original thinking and how much"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":957.81,"endTime":960.6,"body":"came from taste, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":960.6,"endTime":963.75,"body":"how much came from Sure. And how"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":960.6,"endTime":963.75,"body":"much came in, he drew on some"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":963.75,"endTime":967.44,"body":"pistol on the shoulders of some"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":963.75,"endTime":967.44,"body":"amazing giants as well. But man"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":967.44,"endTime":972.99,"body":"did he put it out there. And so"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":967.44,"endTime":972.99,"body":"he gave us this amazing body"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":972.99,"endTime":976.08,"body":"that we can just you can pull"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":972.99,"endTime":976.08,"body":"demon quotes for just about"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":976.08,"endTime":978.87,"body":"anything. And they're all just"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":976.08,"endTime":978.87,"body":"nail it every time."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":979.77,"endTime":982.44,"body":"Yeah, he was really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":979.77,"endTime":982.44,"body":"good on sort of, like, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":982.44,"endTime":986.85,"body":"I've learned in my study of this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":982.44,"endTime":986.85,"body":"man is that he went right didn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":986.85,"endTime":990.42,"body":"suffer fools. But he was very"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":986.85,"endTime":990.42,"body":"particular about the words he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":990.42,"endTime":995.28,"body":"used. And I think the reason his"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":990.42,"endTime":995.28,"body":"quotes are so powerful, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":995.28,"endTime":997.77,"body":"sometimes, like, a lot of times"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":995.28,"endTime":997.77,"body":"is debate on the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":997.77,"endTime":1000.8,"body":"misinterpretation of them. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":997.77,"endTime":1000.8,"body":"even in the sense, there's some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1000.8,"endTime":1005.3,"body":"that when people like the you're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1000.8,"endTime":1005.3,"body":"in God, we trust all our issues"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1005.3,"endTime":1009.14,"body":"data, which is this just came up"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1005.3,"endTime":1009.14,"body":"recently. Um, that is a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1009.14,"endTime":1012.74,"body":"brilliant quote. I think if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1009.14,"endTime":1012.74,"body":"Deming was alive today says,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1012.74,"endTime":1015.35,"body":"Yeah, I think he did a good job"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1012.74,"endTime":1015.35,"body":"with that quote, and then he'd"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1015.35,"endTime":1022.49,"body":"say that, that that, but what I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1015.35,"endTime":1022.49,"body":"really meant, you know, was that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1022.49,"endTime":1025.55,"body":"you know, that it is this things"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1022.49,"endTime":1025.55,"body":"that are unknowable, there are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1025.55,"endTime":1028.85,"body":"things there's a whole deeper"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1025.55,"endTime":1028.85,"body":"conversation. And the last point"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1028.85,"endTime":1032.18,"body":"that your earlier point you made"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1028.85,"endTime":1032.18,"body":"about, like, your he, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1032.18,"endTime":1035.45,"body":"he was clear about where he got"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1032.18,"endTime":1035.45,"body":"his information, he was a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1035.45,"endTime":1039.14,"body":"sponge. And, you know, he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1035.45,"endTime":1039.14,"body":"like this incredible ingress"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1039.17,"endTime":1044.18,"body":"egress machine. So, and he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1039.17,"endTime":1044.18,"body":"no, he, he basically short gave"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1044.18,"endTime":1046.88,"body":"me a lot of information. And he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1044.18,"endTime":1046.88,"body":"learned when he went over to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1046.88,"endTime":1051.74,"body":"Japan, so he was, but again, to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1046.88,"endTime":1051.74,"body":"your point, he was incredibly"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1051.74,"endTime":1054.59,"body":"good at content, you know, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1051.74,"endTime":1054.59,"body":"see this in our industry,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1054.59,"endTime":1057.56,"body":"there's certain people, you can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1054.59,"endTime":1057.56,"body":"hear five people explain"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1057.56,"endTime":1060.59,"body":"something to you. And then you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1057.56,"endTime":1060.59,"body":"go to some conference, and you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1060.59,"endTime":1063.41,"body":"see this one person, I was gonna"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1060.59,"endTime":1063.41,"body":"ask you about Kevin, and when we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1063.41,"endTime":1065.96,"body":"can talk a little bit about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1063.41,"endTime":1065.96,"body":"that. But like, he like that was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1065.96,"endTime":1068.48,"body":"a good example. You know, I was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1065.96,"endTime":1068.48,"body":"trying to figure I'd listen to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1068.48,"endTime":1071.57,"body":"this person talk about connect,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1068.48,"endTime":1071.57,"body":"and I love this person. And then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1071.57,"endTime":1075.71,"body":"you did some writing about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1071.57,"endTime":1075.71,"body":"putting it in context. And all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1075.71,"endTime":1079.07,"body":"of a sudden, like, Oh, now I get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1075.71,"endTime":1079.07,"body":"it, you know, so I think that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1079.07,"endTime":1083.21,"body":"was damning superpower. Really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1079.07,"endTime":1083.21,"body":"feel like he was the humanists."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1083.21,"endTime":1085.79,"body":"There was other great things"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1083.21,"endTime":1085.79,"body":"about him. But he was"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1085.85,"endTime":1091.55,"body":"he was I'm not"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1085.85,"endTime":1091.55,"body":"gonna say ahead of his time, but"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1091.55,"endTime":1097.52,"body":"he was voicing. What is now so"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1091.55,"endTime":1097.52,"body":"obvious. Yeah, that's the point."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1099.74,"endTime":1102.26,"body":"At it's still, it's still"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1099.74,"endTime":1102.26,"body":"relevant. Yeah. No,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1102.26,"endTime":1105.56,"body":"it isn't relevant"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1102.26,"endTime":1105.56,"body":"in you know, I mean, the biggest"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1105.56,"endTime":1108.08,"body":"part of his portfolio of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1105.56,"endTime":1108.08,"body":"knowledge. I mean, it wasn't the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1108.08,"endTime":1111.02,"body":"only and he, you know, he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1108.08,"endTime":1111.02,"body":"thought about psychology thought"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1111.02,"endTime":1114.11,"body":"about system thinking he thought"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1111.02,"endTime":1114.11,"body":"about epistemology. But the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1114.11,"endTime":1117.86,"body":"biggest sort of tool and it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1114.11,"endTime":1117.86,"body":"too bad came from off the shoe"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1117.86,"endTime":1122.51,"body":"it and which was the very issue,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1117.86,"endTime":1122.51,"body":"it's difficult to control that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1122.51,"endTime":1126.2,"body":"all that stuff. And I was just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1122.51,"endTime":1126.2,"body":"listening to somebody the other"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1126.2,"endTime":1131.33,"body":"day, which said that in 1980, he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1126.2,"endTime":1131.33,"body":"made a comment that it would be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1131.33,"endTime":1134.84,"body":"another 50 years before anybody"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1131.33,"endTime":1134.84,"body":"really understood the impact"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1134.84,"endTime":1140.6,"body":"what you were saying, was 1980."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1134.84,"endTime":1140.6,"body":"Yes. Yeah, no, it's good stuff."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1140.9,"endTime":1142.79,"body":"Do you want to talk about some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1140.9,"endTime":1142.79,"body":"of the stuff you did? What can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1142.79,"endTime":1145.52,"body":"happen? Is it still sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1142.79,"endTime":1145.52,"body":"relevant in your idea because I,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1145.82,"endTime":1150.77,"body":"I really enjoyed some of your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1145.82,"endTime":1150.77,"body":"some of your books and things"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1150.77,"endTime":1155.75,"body":"that you've written, because you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1150.77,"endTime":1155.75,"body":"will put them in real context,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1155.81,"endTime":1158.78,"body":"when I browse, which can happen"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1155.81,"endTime":1158.78,"body":"for the longest time was, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1158.78,"endTime":1162.32,"body":"know, I can only see theory with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1158.78,"endTime":1162.32,"body":"it, I couldn't find, and it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1162.32,"endTime":1164.6,"body":"probably was out there. But I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1162.32,"endTime":1164.6,"body":"couldn't find anybody who could"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1164.6,"endTime":1169.61,"body":"practically give me a practical"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1164.6,"endTime":1169.61,"body":"way, in a way that I understood"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1170.0,"endTime":1174.5,"body":"of why they fail you to me, as"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1170.0,"endTime":1174.5,"body":"somebody who likes complex"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1174.5,"endTime":1178.13,"body":"thinking all like you like, this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1174.5,"endTime":1178.13,"body":"is cool. Okay, where's an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1178.13,"endTime":1182.33,"body":"example? And I struggled and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1178.13,"endTime":1182.33,"body":"don't want to exactly the stuff"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1182.33,"endTime":1183.47,"body":"you were doing, but you put"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1183.47,"endTime":1186.17,"body":"some goods was"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1183.47,"endTime":1186.17,"body":"probably standard plus case the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1186.23,"endTime":1189.77,"body":"but and I did a three"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1186.23,"endTime":1189.77,"body":"dimensional view of Cunniff. And"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1189.8,"endTime":1195.8,"body":"he did yeah, loved as well."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1189.8,"endTime":1195.8,"body":"Yeah, cuz Dave Snowden is a"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1195.8,"endTime":1200.81,"body":"super cerebral. Yeah. Super"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1195.8,"endTime":1200.81,"body":"intellectual thinker. Have you"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1200.81,"endTime":1203.93,"body":"ever makes my head hurt? Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1200.81,"endTime":1203.93,"body":"you know, just even trying to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1203.93,"endTime":1207.2,"body":"follow Him. And so I struggled,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1203.93,"endTime":1207.2,"body":"right? I was doing a thing"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1207.2,"endTime":1211.22,"body":"called Santa plus case 10 or 12"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1207.2,"endTime":1211.22,"body":"years ago. What about"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1211.22,"endTime":1214.43,"body":"standardized work versus Hey"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1211.22,"endTime":1214.43,"body":"guys work, right? There's this"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1214.43,"endTime":1218.18,"body":"crossover back to what we were"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1214.43,"endTime":1218.18,"body":"saying. And and I came across"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1218.18,"endTime":1222.02,"body":"this thing called connection in"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1218.18,"endTime":1222.02,"body":"my research, which thing was"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1222.02,"endTime":1225.62,"body":"quite new and new to me. And I,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1222.02,"endTime":1225.62,"body":"yeah, I really hurt my head"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1225.62,"endTime":1229.55,"body":"trying to get my head around it."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1225.62,"endTime":1229.55,"body":"So if I am any, you know, if I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1229.55,"endTime":1233.42,"body":"have any particular skill, I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1229.55,"endTime":1233.42,"body":"think it is to try and come up"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1233.42,"endTime":1239.12,"body":"with layman's language for"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1233.42,"endTime":1239.12,"body":"things. And so yeah, I tried to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1239.12,"endTime":1242.66,"body":"articulate Cunniff and, and in"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1239.12,"endTime":1242.66,"body":"more practical terms, and to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1242.66,"endTime":1245.24,"body":"draw, I drew this three"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1242.66,"endTime":1245.24,"body":"dimensional thing that sort of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1245.24,"endTime":1249.26,"body":"helped to and Dave, actually,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1245.24,"endTime":1249.26,"body":"Dave Snowden actually revised it"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1249.26,"endTime":1253.7,"body":"for me and said, No, no, it"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1249.26,"endTime":1253.7,"body":"should be like this. And then"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1253.76,"endTime":1257.84,"body":"they've come up with a much,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1253.76,"endTime":1257.84,"body":"much better 3d version in the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1257.84,"endTime":1261.38,"body":"new Cunniff. And book that came"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1257.84,"endTime":1261.38,"body":"out. I haven't read it yet."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1261.77,"endTime":1265.13,"body":"Yeah. So on page 200, and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1261.77,"endTime":1265.13,"body":"something there's a 3d version,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1265.13,"endTime":1271.25,"body":"which me and Martin Berg and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1265.13,"endTime":1271.25,"body":"Chris Bromley all had a input"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1271.25,"endTime":1275.81,"body":"into different previous treaties"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1271.25,"endTime":1275.81,"body":"to make this mostly it's Martin"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1275.81,"endTime":1281.6,"body":"Berg. Did this beautiful news"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1275.81,"endTime":1281.6,"body":"sort of illustration 3d. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1281.6,"endTime":1286.58,"body":"So try and make it practical."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1281.6,"endTime":1286.58,"body":"And connect. So connection for"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1286.58,"endTime":1290.54,"body":"me. I've been on a long journey,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1286.58,"endTime":1290.54,"body":"I actually want to rewrite that"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1290.54,"endTime":1292.91,"body":"Senate plus case book because"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1290.54,"endTime":1292.91,"body":"I've learned so much about"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1292.91,"endTime":1297.23,"body":"Kenneth since and will actually"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1292.91,"endTime":1297.23,"body":"have a more prominent role in"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1297.23,"endTime":1303.08,"body":"the rewrite of the book, which"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1297.23,"endTime":1303.08,"body":"I'm halfway through. I think it"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1303.08,"endTime":1307.58,"body":"is an insight into a fundamental"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1303.08,"endTime":1307.58,"body":"of nature, because we're all"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1307.58,"endTime":1310.43,"body":"trying to come to terms with"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1307.58,"endTime":1310.43,"body":"complexity in complex systems"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1310.43,"endTime":1314.99,"body":"thinking and, and I think one of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1310.43,"endTime":1314.99,"body":"the things about deeming is that"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1314.99,"endTime":1319.76,"body":"he didn't have all the language."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1314.99,"endTime":1319.76,"body":"Right, like a lot of complexity,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1319.94,"endTime":1323.81,"body":"thinking dates from the 90s in"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1319.94,"endTime":1323.81,"body":"the late 20th century, the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1323.81,"endTime":1329.72,"body":"butterfly and the Amazon chaos"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1323.81,"endTime":1329.72,"body":"with medics, and when none of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1329.72,"endTime":1336.68,"body":"that was available to them. And,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1329.72,"endTime":1336.68,"body":"and so I think he would have"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1336.68,"endTime":1338.78,"body":"loved and absorbed Yeah. Oh,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1336.68,"endTime":1338.78,"body":"yeah. To"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1338.78,"endTime":1340.94,"body":"say, Yeah, your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1338.78,"endTime":1340.94,"body":"action is killing. Yeah, buddy."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1341.21,"endTime":1343.46,"body":"Damon, I think he's, like, Damon"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1341.21,"endTime":1343.46,"body":"was he got"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1343.52,"endTime":1344.93,"body":"off dreaming day? I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1344.93,"endTime":1345.74,"body":"got it. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1344.93,"endTime":1345.74,"body":"sorry."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1345.77,"endTime":1349.55,"body":"Yeah, um, what's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1345.77,"endTime":1349.55,"body":"available to deeming at the time"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1350.75,"endTime":1354.32,"body":"to use that language and some of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1350.75,"endTime":1354.32,"body":"those concepts of complexity,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1354.32,"endTime":1355.64,"body":"they just didn't exist,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1355.67,"endTime":1359.12,"body":"you get some but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1355.67,"endTime":1359.12,"body":"they were evolving in parallel"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1359.12,"endTime":1359.93,"body":"with him other"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1359.93,"endTime":1362.09,"body":"in there, you can"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1359.93,"endTime":1362.09,"body":"see it, you can see that if he"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1362.09,"endTime":1367.79,"body":"had been around, right, like,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1362.09,"endTime":1367.79,"body":"once we had chaos theory and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1367.94,"endTime":1368.54,"body":"complex,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1368.78,"endTime":1371.06,"body":"practical, infinite"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1368.78,"endTime":1371.06,"body":"formations of these things,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1371.09,"endTime":1374.9,"body":"he would have just"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1371.09,"endTime":1374.9,"body":"used that language. Somebody was"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1374.9,"endTime":1375.17,"body":"telling"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1375.17,"endTime":1376.94,"body":"me Yeah, today,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1375.17,"endTime":1376.94,"body":"there's a guy who works for big"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1376.94,"endTime":1380.06,"body":"corporation. And we've had like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1376.94,"endTime":1380.06,"body":"these calls, and he can't get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1380.06,"endTime":1382.58,"body":"approval that come on. He's one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1380.06,"endTime":1382.58,"body":"of the smartest guys I've ever"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1382.58,"endTime":1384.89,"body":"talked to. But he can't get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1382.58,"endTime":1384.89,"body":"approval for this big"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1384.89,"endTime":1388.07,"body":"corporation to come on the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1384.89,"endTime":1388.07,"body":"podcast. But but, you know, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1388.07,"endTime":1391.61,"body":"geek out as if we're practicing."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1388.07,"endTime":1391.61,"body":"And he he's, you know, there's a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1391.61,"endTime":1394.43,"body":"Deming has this system of Crown"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1391.61,"endTime":1394.43,"body":"knowledge. And it's the theory"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1394.43,"endTime":1397.97,"body":"of variation, right? It's a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1394.43,"endTime":1397.97,"body":"theory of psychology, and his"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1397.97,"endTime":1401.42,"body":"theory of knowledge. But it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1397.97,"endTime":1401.42,"body":"usually referred to not as the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1401.42,"endTime":1404.45,"body":"theory of systems. It's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1401.42,"endTime":1404.45,"body":"basically appreciation systems."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1404.63,"endTime":1407.69,"body":"So I think that goes in line"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1404.63,"endTime":1407.69,"body":"with your point, like, you know"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1407.69,"endTime":1412.88,"body":"what I mean, I think it's that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1407.69,"endTime":1412.88,"body":"point. He did probably wasn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1412.88,"endTime":1417.53,"body":"enough body of work, or that was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1412.88,"endTime":1417.53,"body":"sort of calcified. Where he like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1417.53,"endTime":1421.85,"body":"it, like theory of nothing. It"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1417.53,"endTime":1421.85,"body":"was a pistol Knology pragmatism,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1421.85,"endTime":1424.52,"body":"like, that was I can call he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1421.85,"endTime":1424.52,"body":"could call Yeah, no, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1424.52,"endTime":1425.66,"body":"yeah, like, when"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1425.66,"endTime":1429.14,"body":"I read when I read"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1425.66,"endTime":1429.14,"body":"his stuff, I'm like, he knew"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1429.14,"endTime":1435.32,"body":"this stuff, or they knew this"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1429.14,"endTime":1435.32,"body":"way. But we hadn't just evolved"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1435.35,"endTime":1438.8,"body":"this new set of concepts to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1435.35,"endTime":1438.8,"body":"frame it in the way that we can"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1438.8,"endTime":1442.64,"body":"now talk about complex systems."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1438.8,"endTime":1442.64,"body":"So we're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1442.64,"endTime":1445.07,"body":"in the beginning of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1442.64,"endTime":1445.07,"body":"being able to at least put a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1445.07,"endTime":1447.62,"body":"framing around the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1445.07,"endTime":1447.62,"body":"conversations. Yeah, know that."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1447.62,"endTime":1449.24,"body":"It's a really, I liked that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1447.62,"endTime":1449.24,"body":"point a lot."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1449.27,"endTime":1451.91,"body":"We've got new"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1449.27,"endTime":1451.91,"body":"intellectual models we can use"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1451.91,"endTime":1452.93,"body":"that he didn't have."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1453.02,"endTime":1454.49,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1453.02,"endTime":1454.49,"body":"That's a great way of putting"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1454.49,"endTime":1457.04,"body":"it. Yeah. And then he probably"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1454.49,"endTime":1457.04,"body":"would have gotten into nasty"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1457.04,"endTime":1458.42,"body":"fights with Snowden anyway."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1458.66,"endTime":1460.07,"body":"Yeah, that's right."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1458.66,"endTime":1460.07,"body":"Yes,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1460.76,"endTime":1462.89,"body":"sir. What a yell at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1460.76,"endTime":1462.89,"body":"him for calling, you know, one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1462.89,"endTime":1463.64,"body":"of the quadrants."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1465.29,"endTime":1471.98,"body":"So, exactly. So,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1465.29,"endTime":1471.98,"body":"um, so that is my, that's one"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1471.98,"endTime":1477.44,"body":"thing about deeming is is, is"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1471.98,"endTime":1477.44,"body":"that is that when you read it,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1477.68,"endTime":1481.04,"body":"you have to then layer upon I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1477.68,"endTime":1481.04,"body":"think some of these new models."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1482.78,"endTime":1488.66,"body":"And I'm not as fond as you are"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1482.78,"endTime":1488.66,"body":"of the manufacturing, like I'm a"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1488.66,"endTime":1492.95,"body":"bit worried about. Yeah, we"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1488.66,"endTime":1492.95,"body":"could go to school variation and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1492.95,"endTime":1497.72,"body":"things just just because that"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1492.95,"endTime":1497.72,"body":"whole standardization is only"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1497.72,"endTime":1501.98,"body":"some of the world thing. I'm"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1497.72,"endTime":1501.98,"body":"still finding my way there. I'm"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1501.98,"endTime":1505.13,"body":"still learning. I'm still"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1501.98,"endTime":1505.13,"body":"exploring it."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1505.61,"endTime":1508.34,"body":"It's open debate in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1505.61,"endTime":1508.34,"body":"you know, these are the things I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1508.34,"endTime":1510.86,"body":"definitely want to get into some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1508.34,"endTime":1510.86,"body":"of yours are the new stuff"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1510.86,"endTime":1513.5,"body":"torquey doing but I mean, in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1510.86,"endTime":1513.5,"body":"short, and I just I did a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1513.5,"endTime":1516.05,"body":"podcast with Jean lately. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1513.5,"endTime":1516.05,"body":"think there's a couple of things"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1516.05,"endTime":1521.87,"body":"I think people misunderstand."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1516.05,"endTime":1521.87,"body":"It's like, like that quote, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1521.87,"endTime":1526.01,"body":"know, in God, we trust all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1521.87,"endTime":1526.01,"body":"spring data. But there's one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1526.01,"endTime":1529.91,"body":"version of that. But then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1526.01,"endTime":1529.91,"body":"there's they'll go read this,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1529.94,"endTime":1533.81,"body":"the whole section in one of his"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1529.94,"endTime":1533.81,"body":"books or two of his books, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1533.81,"endTime":1536.27,"body":"you realize there are a whole"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1533.81,"endTime":1536.27,"body":"the other one, I guess the more"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1536.3,"endTime":1540.53,"body":"sort of prominent missed"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1536.3,"endTime":1540.53,"body":"misunderstood one is the it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1540.53,"endTime":1546.23,"body":"can't manage that can't manage"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1540.53,"endTime":1546.23,"body":"what you can't measure, in like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1546.23,"endTime":1550.16,"body":"Demi didn't really mean that,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1546.23,"endTime":1550.16,"body":"because he had a lot of stuff"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1550.16,"endTime":1555.68,"body":"about managing, unmeasurable and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1550.16,"endTime":1555.68,"body":"unknowable data. So there's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1555.68,"endTime":1559.4,"body":"already a conflict. So here's my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1555.68,"endTime":1559.4,"body":"point is that when I think when"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1559.4,"endTime":1562.58,"body":"people read a line in one of his"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1559.4,"endTime":1562.58,"body":"books that says you must reduce"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1562.58,"endTime":1567.68,"body":"variation? I think they're not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1562.58,"endTime":1567.68,"body":"sort of catching that, like he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1567.68,"endTime":1570.65,"body":"thought you understood a whole"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1567.68,"endTime":1570.65,"body":"bunch of other things. Yeah, by"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1572.42,"endTime":1575.51,"body":"using advanced statistics, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1572.42,"endTime":1575.51,"body":"were looking for patterns"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1575.51,"endTime":1581.06,"body":"models, you know, common versus"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1575.51,"endTime":1581.06,"body":"special cause. And then one last"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1581.06,"endTime":1584.87,"body":"piece is the other thing I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1581.06,"endTime":1584.87,"body":"people conflate when they talk"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1584.87,"endTime":1589.25,"body":"about, I can't still see"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1584.87,"endTime":1589.25,"body":"manufacturing economies"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1589.43,"endTime":1594.32,"body":"completely translating to a sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1589.43,"endTime":1594.32,"body":"of knowledge economies. You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1594.32,"endTime":1597.23,"body":"know, and I think some of that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1594.32,"endTime":1597.23,"body":"is true, but I think people sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1597.23,"endTime":1601.7,"body":"of over rotate on how much of it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1597.23,"endTime":1601.7,"body":"is true. And that, you know, if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1601.7,"endTime":1604.1,"body":"you read the total supply chain"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1601.7,"endTime":1604.1,"body":"book, when they talk about the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1604.1,"endTime":1606.2,"body":"four wheels, and I had a long"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1604.1,"endTime":1606.2,"body":"conversation with Jean, about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1606.2,"endTime":1609.47,"body":"this, they are really clear"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1606.2,"endTime":1609.47,"body":"about the distinction between"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1609.47,"endTime":1613.76,"body":"variety and variation. And I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1609.47,"endTime":1613.76,"body":"think people conflate variety of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1613.76,"endTime":1617.93,"body":"age, and they're, they're these"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1613.76,"endTime":1617.93,"body":"subtle things. But, but variety"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1617.93,"endTime":1621.17,"body":"is people say, like in knowledge"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1617.93,"endTime":1621.17,"body":"work, you have to have sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1621.17,"endTime":1624.65,"body":"lots of experiments. And, and so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1621.17,"endTime":1624.65,"body":"you can't like you can't have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1624.65,"endTime":1627.65,"body":"this sort of reduced variation"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1624.65,"endTime":1627.65,"body":"at all costs. But one dummy"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1627.65,"endTime":1631.22,"body":"never said reduce verification"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1627.65,"endTime":1631.22,"body":"or costs. And then to, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1631.22,"endTime":1634.22,"body":"Demi understood, what they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1631.22,"endTime":1634.22,"body":"learned probably from Deming is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1634.22,"endTime":1637.85,"body":"that in poorer star chain, they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1634.22,"endTime":1637.85,"body":"had a clear distinction between"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1638.39,"endTime":1642.59,"body":"the ROI a variety. I mean, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1638.39,"endTime":1642.59,"body":"don't just experiment to to know"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1642.59,"endTime":1646.79,"body":"cost, I mean, to access, it's a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1642.59,"endTime":1646.79,"body":"point. But there's, but there's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1646.79,"endTime":1649.19,"body":"a sort of, I mean, not to get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1646.79,"endTime":1649.19,"body":"crazy, but like the Taguchi"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1649.19,"endTime":1651.92,"body":"stuff, if anybody goes to gives"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1649.19,"endTime":1651.92,"body":"you less function right in, it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1651.92,"endTime":1655.82,"body":"sort of gives you this variance"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1651.92,"endTime":1655.82,"body":"that isn't just tightening in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1655.85,"endTime":1659.33,"body":"it's like figuring out the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1655.85,"endTime":1659.33,"body":"investment of a suit. Anyway,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1659.39,"endTime":1662.87,"body":"that's just, I mean, there's a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1659.39,"endTime":1662.87,"body":"longer conversation on that. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1662.87,"endTime":1665.78,"body":"I think there's the when people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1662.87,"endTime":1665.78,"body":"just say, and I'm not saying you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1665.78,"endTime":1668.42,"body":"say this that, you know, sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1665.78,"endTime":1668.42,"body":"of, I'm not sure Demings right"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1668.42,"endTime":1671.0,"body":"about variation, I have to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1668.42,"endTime":1671.0,"body":"question like, What do you think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1671.0,"endTime":1671.27,"body":"he"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1672.08,"endTime":1677.33,"body":"know, so when I get"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1672.08,"endTime":1677.33,"body":"there, it's the applicability."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1677.33,"endTime":1682.7,"body":"So what I'm trying to understand"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1677.33,"endTime":1682.7,"body":"at the moment is dealing with"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1682.7,"endTime":1690.38,"body":"complexity. VUCA is very trendy"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1682.7,"endTime":1690.38,"body":"term, we use it a lot. But the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1690.38,"endTime":1696.23,"body":"idea that in our real world, all"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1690.38,"endTime":1696.23,"body":"systems are, in fact, complex"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1696.23,"endTime":1702.14,"body":"adaptive systems. And therefore,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1696.23,"endTime":1702.14,"body":"everything is a network of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1703.97,"endTime":1710.27,"body":"interacting agents. Everything"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1703.97,"endTime":1710.27,"body":"is, is a value network. And, and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1710.27,"endTime":1714.26,"body":"so the idea of a value stream or"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1710.27,"endTime":1714.26,"body":"a value chain, to me is"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1714.26,"endTime":1719.36,"body":"something that is localized,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1714.26,"endTime":1719.36,"body":"that if you zoom in, and if you"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1719.36,"endTime":1726.29,"body":"introduce a bounded system, you"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1719.36,"endTime":1726.29,"body":"can create a flow. And, and so a"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1726.5,"endTime":1730.1,"body":"continuous delivery pipeline"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1726.5,"endTime":1730.1,"body":"effect production factory, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1730.13,"endTime":1733.19,"body":"right. That's a bounded system,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1730.13,"endTime":1733.19,"body":"right? It's bounded by process,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1733.19,"endTime":1736.76,"body":"and it's bounded by concrete."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1733.19,"endTime":1736.76,"body":"And, and so that the work does"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1736.79,"endTime":1742.37,"body":"actually float in a stream. But"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1736.79,"endTime":1742.37,"body":"if you zoom out, from macro view"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1742.37,"endTime":1746.09,"body":"of any real world system, it's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1742.37,"endTime":1746.09,"body":"always a network, it's always"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1746.09,"endTime":1750.29,"body":"something much more complex,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1746.09,"endTime":1750.29,"body":"right. And one of the things we"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1750.29,"endTime":1755.84,"body":"know about complex systems is"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1750.29,"endTime":1755.84,"body":"you can never know them as a"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1755.84,"endTime":1761.24,"body":"whole, right? And so, I just"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1755.84,"endTime":1761.24,"body":"feel and as I say, I'm not sure"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1761.24,"endTime":1763.55,"body":"about this yet. I'm still trying"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1761.24,"endTime":1763.55,"body":"to understand myself, but I just"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1763.55,"endTime":1771.77,"body":"feel that a lot of these ideas"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1763.55,"endTime":1771.77,"body":"of theory constraints and and,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1771.77,"endTime":1774.95,"body":"you know, variation of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1771.77,"endTime":1774.95,"body":"variability and Six Sigma and,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1776.54,"endTime":1783.23,"body":"and a lot of these flow ideas,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1776.54,"endTime":1783.23,"body":"to me work really well when you"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1783.23,"endTime":1789.41,"body":"have a well bounded local system"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1783.23,"endTime":1789.41,"body":"that can be treated as a flow."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1790.31,"endTime":1793.7,"body":"Yeah. And we just got to be"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1790.31,"endTime":1793.7,"body":"careful not to try and use it in"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1793.7,"endTime":1797.06,"body":"contexts that are not well"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1793.7,"endTime":1797.06,"body":"bounded linear flows. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1797.06,"endTime":1798.86,"body":"like six sigma,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1797.06,"endTime":1798.86,"body":"right, that's a whole lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1798.86,"endTime":1802.7,"body":"conversation towards something I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1798.86,"endTime":1802.7,"body":"don't want to even bring it up."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1802.73,"endTime":1806.3,"body":"I know I don't get it. But But I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1802.73,"endTime":1806.3,"body":"think there is more determinism"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1806.33,"endTime":1810.77,"body":"in Six Sigma than trc. And, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1806.33,"endTime":1810.77,"body":"so, but the thing that you have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1810.77,"endTime":1815.39,"body":"to understand about Deming in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1810.77,"endTime":1815.39,"body":"again, you know, and I'm not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1815.39,"endTime":1819.32,"body":"saying you say that saying this,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1815.39,"endTime":1819.32,"body":"but like when you sorta create a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1819.35,"endTime":1823.16,"body":"sort of a focal point of Deming"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1819.35,"endTime":1823.16,"body":"a variation, system, profound"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1823.16,"endTime":1824.81,"body":"knowledge is indeed"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1824.81,"endTime":1827.21,"body":"now he got the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1824.81,"endTime":1827.21,"body":"stuff he absolutely"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1827.899,"endTime":1831.889,"body":"cannot understand"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1827.899,"endTime":1831.889,"body":"variation without understanding"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1831.889,"endTime":1835.339,"body":"the theory, psychology without"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1831.889,"endTime":1835.339,"body":"the appreciation system, and the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1835.339,"endTime":1838.309,"body":"theory of knowledge,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1835.339,"endTime":1838.309,"body":"epistemology. So he constantly"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1838.309,"endTime":1841.069,"body":"was like, trying to bang in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1838.309,"endTime":1841.069,"body":"everybody's head that and he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1841.069,"endTime":1844.399,"body":"called a profound knowledge"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1841.069,"endTime":1844.399,"body":"specifically for tight words. He"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1844.399,"endTime":1847.519,"body":"wasn't like being egotistical,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1844.399,"endTime":1847.519,"body":"like, I'm the most profound man"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1847.519,"endTime":1851.359,"body":"in the universe. He said that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1847.519,"endTime":1851.359,"body":"profound knowledge meant that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1851.359,"endTime":1854.509,"body":"you had to understand the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1851.359,"endTime":1854.509,"body":"relationship between psychology"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1854.809,"endTime":1861.199,"body":"between variation between pistol"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1854.809,"endTime":1861.199,"body":"Knology, and in systems. And in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1861.199,"endTime":1866.929,"body":"that case, he is always sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1861.199,"endTime":1866.929,"body":"looking at, you're trying to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1866.959,"endTime":1870.139,"body":"break the hole into the hole"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1866.959,"endTime":1870.139,"body":"until like, in other words, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1870.139,"endTime":1872.299,"body":"know, I mean, even the same gay"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1870.139,"endTime":1872.299,"body":"stuff, saying gay wrote an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1872.299,"endTime":1875.929,"body":"apology letter to him after your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1872.299,"endTime":1875.929,"body":"first book, saying that, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1875.929,"endTime":1879.889,"body":"know, like, like, Oh, my God,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1875.929,"endTime":1879.889,"body":"like, I didn't realize he wrote"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1879.919,"endTime":1881.959,"body":"them. He wrote them a letter,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1879.919,"endTime":1881.959,"body":"right. And then he's letter and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1881.959,"endTime":1884.809,"body":"said, and he said, Oh, my God,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1881.959,"endTime":1884.809,"body":"that's my book. That's the Fifth"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1884.809,"endTime":1889.039,"body":"Discipline, you know, so so all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1884.809,"endTime":1889.039,"body":"this is intertwined. The only"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1889.039,"endTime":1893.629,"body":"thing about to see is what's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1889.039,"endTime":1893.629,"body":"interesting. Is go rat did spend"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1893.689,"endTime":1896.839,"body":"a lot of time talking about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1893.689,"endTime":1896.839,"body":"global versus local optima."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1897.229,"endTime":1902.509,"body":"Right? So, so ever again, um,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1897.229,"endTime":1902.509,"body":"yeah, I think it goes back to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1902.629,"endTime":1906.379,"body":"like, what you talked about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1902.629,"endTime":1906.379,"body":"earlier is if people get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1906.379,"endTime":1910.159,"body":"dogmatic or they sort of isolate"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1906.379,"endTime":1910.159,"body":"in on like, just the way I do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1910.159,"endTime":1913.579,"body":"it, you'll then you can look,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1910.159,"endTime":1913.579,"body":"Six Sigma is I think, six sigma,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1913.579,"endTime":1916.339,"body":"fundamentally, I mean, I was a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1913.579,"endTime":1916.339,"body":"black I don't my wife was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1916.369,"endTime":1920.149,"body":"blacked out. I was a green belt,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1916.369,"endTime":1920.149,"body":"in all honesty, at GE Capital."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1920.629,"endTime":1923.419,"body":"Everybody got to green, it was a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1920.629,"endTime":1923.419,"body":"everybody gets a trophy, your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1923.419,"endTime":1926.299,"body":"green belts in likes, and T."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1923.419,"endTime":1926.299,"body":"Kava was like here, your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1926.299,"endTime":1929.659,"body":"starting point, like it's like a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1926.299,"endTime":1929.659,"body":"white belt in karate. But I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1929.659,"endTime":1933.409,"body":"understood it. And they just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1929.659,"endTime":1933.409,"body":"totally did a terrible job of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1933.409,"endTime":1936.589,"body":"implementing because it was like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1933.409,"endTime":1936.589,"body":"the police, you know, what's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1936.589,"endTime":1939.439,"body":"your sigma? What's your process?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1936.589,"endTime":1939.439,"body":"Show me to chart right now?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1939.439,"endTime":1939.739,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1939.739,"endTime":1943.189,"body":"I'm actually going"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1939.739,"endTime":1943.189,"body":"to bathroom. This. This the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1943.189,"endTime":1945.469,"body":"bureaucrats getting the hands on"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1943.189,"endTime":1945.469,"body":"a good idea again."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1945.5,"endTime":1947.15,"body":"And actually, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1945.5,"endTime":1947.15,"body":"mean, that's my point. Is that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1947.15,"endTime":1950.96,"body":"like, I think there is the sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1947.15,"endTime":1950.96,"body":"of pure intention of things,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1951.35,"endTime":1953.54,"body":"what to see. And again, I think,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1954.44,"endTime":1957.53,"body":"but it's a, I think"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1954.44,"endTime":1957.53,"body":"it's deeper than that. I think"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1957.53,"endTime":1962.42,"body":"that what I'm saying is that the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1957.53,"endTime":1962.42,"body":"whole idea of flow optimization"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1963.77,"endTime":1968.87,"body":"is potentially a limiting mental"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1963.77,"endTime":1968.87,"body":"paradigm, if we're not careful"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1968.87,"endTime":1974.75,"body":"where we use it, that our"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1968.87,"endTime":1974.75,"body":"systems are, in fact, not flows."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1975.59,"endTime":1979.85,"body":"A lot of the bigger systems"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1975.59,"endTime":1979.85,"body":"aren't, you can only find local"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1979.85,"endTime":1982.91,"body":"points within the system. And"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1979.85,"endTime":1982.91,"body":"otherwise, it's a network. It's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1982.91,"endTime":1987.08,"body":"more like, the analogy I use is"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1982.91,"endTime":1987.08,"body":"it's more like an Everglades."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1988.19,"endTime":1991.25,"body":"Right where the waters moving,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1988.19,"endTime":1991.25,"body":"but it's moving in all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1991.25,"endTime":1993.68,"body":"directions. And actually"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1991.25,"endTime":1993.68,"body":"determining what is the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1993.68,"endTime":1997.85,"body":"direction of flow is really"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1993.68,"endTime":1997.85,"body":"hard. It's not a stream, that"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1998.18,"endTime":2003.16,"body":"swamp of network of co creation,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":1998.18,"endTime":2003.16,"body":"failure flowing in both"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2003.16,"endTime":2006.52,"body":"directions, constantly"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2003.16,"endTime":2006.52,"body":"dynamically changing."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2007.69,"endTime":2009.19,"body":"I mean, this way I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2007.69,"endTime":2009.19,"body":"like I like having"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2009.19,"endTime":2012.85,"body":"conversations. I guess the thing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2009.19,"endTime":2012.85,"body":"I would I will have to sort out"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2013.06,"endTime":2015.4,"body":"because now I feel like okay, to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2013.06,"endTime":2015.4,"body":"continue this conversation, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2015.4,"endTime":2019.15,"body":"got to rewrite my friends, James"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2015.4,"endTime":2019.15,"body":"circuits, flow architectures"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2019.15,"endTime":2022.24,"body":"book, because I think that's how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2019.15,"endTime":2022.24,"body":"he describes how you"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2022.48,"endTime":2024.91,"body":"don't mind so long"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2022.48,"endTime":2024.91,"body":"as we understand that we've"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2024.97,"endTime":2028.09,"body":"found a context where we have a"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2024.97,"endTime":2028.09,"body":"bounded flow, it's a factory"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2028.09,"endTime":2031.54,"body":"and I know your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2028.09,"endTime":2031.54,"body":"DevOps, you're sort of certified"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2031.54,"endTime":2033.97,"body":"DevOps, you've done a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2031.54,"endTime":2033.97,"body":"demos. So like, you don't hate,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2034.51,"endTime":2037.0,"body":"you know,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2034.51,"endTime":2037.0,"body":"continuous. I think it works."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2037.03,"endTime":2040.96,"body":"Yeah, careful about checking"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2037.03,"endTime":2040.96,"body":"that you've got. Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2041.26,"endTime":2043.51,"body":"think I'm gonna"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2041.26,"endTime":2043.51,"body":"just leave a footnote and a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2043.51,"endTime":2048.34,"body":"hanger for this one, and go"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2043.51,"endTime":2048.34,"body":"back. But I think James or Cutts"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2048.34,"endTime":2050.68,"body":"knew but basically, he's written"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2048.34,"endTime":2050.68,"body":"a book about event driven"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2050.68,"endTime":2054.67,"body":"architectures and I think he's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2050.68,"endTime":2054.67,"body":"the lead so that coming and he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2054.82,"endTime":2057.31,"body":"by the way, we're doing our the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2054.82,"endTime":2057.31,"body":"foreign paper this year I know"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2057.31,"endTime":2060.34,"body":"you're gonna be involved in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2057.31,"endTime":2060.34,"body":"foreign papers genes. Nine"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2062.199,"endTime":2065.289,"body":"boys look for them."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2062.199,"endTime":2065.289,"body":"Eagle Yeah, we're gonna do"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2065.289,"endTime":2068.739,"body":"adventure of the finest body of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2065.289,"endTime":2068.739,"body":"knowledge on a really bops in"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2068.739,"endTime":2070.839,"body":"the world. People don't know I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2068.739,"endTime":2070.839,"body":"couldn't think of that."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2071.11,"endTime":2074.29,"body":"Like there's such a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2071.11,"endTime":2074.29,"body":"wealth of free ink and by some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2074.29,"endTime":2077.83,"body":"of the unbelievable results that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2074.29,"endTime":2077.83,"body":"are putting and we put you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2077.83,"endTime":2080.92,"body":"you've been on all these like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2077.83,"endTime":2080.92,"body":"people I mean there you take you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2080.92,"endTime":2083.92,"body":"put like seven or eight people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2080.92,"endTime":2083.92,"body":"on one project and there's some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2083.92,"endTime":2086.89,"body":"of the smartest people and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2083.92,"endTime":2086.89,"body":"people just do it for Gene You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2086.89,"endTime":2090.01,"body":"know, it's what Gene gene is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2086.89,"endTime":2090.01,"body":"this person people want to work"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2090.01,"endTime":2094.45,"body":"hard for. Totally and yeah, it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2090.01,"endTime":2094.45,"body":"a credible anyway, there's a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2094.45,"endTime":2097.84,"body":"good conversation. I guess they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2094.45,"endTime":2097.84,"body":"let's let's dive into you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2097.84,"endTime":2101.41,"body":"I I've been trying to follow you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2097.84,"endTime":2101.41,"body":"stuff in You're You're obviously"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2101.5,"endTime":2107.05,"body":"staying busy are always thinking"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2101.5,"endTime":2107.05,"body":"ahead of the game. So what is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2107.05,"endTime":2109.78,"body":"the game now that you're sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2107.05,"endTime":2109.78,"body":"like, Is there is there any way"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2109.78,"endTime":2112.09,"body":"you can sort of summarize the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2109.78,"endTime":2112.09,"body":"way you're seeing the world now"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2112.09,"endTime":2114.22,"body":"and in the problem? Solve?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2114.73,"endTime":2117.04,"body":"The world calls it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2114.73,"endTime":2117.04,"body":"business agility?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2118.329,"endTime":2120.789,"body":"I'm not. You got"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2118.329,"endTime":2120.789,"body":"it? Nothing."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2122.17,"endTime":2128.02,"body":"not wild about the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2122.17,"endTime":2128.02,"body":"term. We call it human systems"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2128.02,"endTime":2133.69,"body":"adaptability. Okay. So the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2128.02,"endTime":2133.69,"body":"humanistic and the whole values."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2134.05,"endTime":2141.31,"body":"Growth, evolution, to the right."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2134.05,"endTime":2141.31,"body":"That whole enlightenment, right."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2141.34,"endTime":2144.88,"body":"The, the, the Institute for the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2141.34,"endTime":2144.88,"body":"Future is calling it the second"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2144.88,"endTime":2148.03,"body":"enlightenment and I'm not sure I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2144.88,"endTime":2148.03,"body":"disagree, right. It's the step"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2148.03,"endTime":2151.3,"body":"change in enlight. Social"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2148.03,"endTime":2151.3,"body":"enlightenment. So the whole"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2151.3,"endTime":2156.4,"body":"humanistic I love Gary Hamels"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2151.3,"endTime":2156.4,"body":"book, human ah, cracy Mm hmm."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2156.4,"endTime":2160.33,"body":"Wonderful, great book. It's one"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2156.4,"endTime":2160.33,"body":"of those books where every three"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2160.33,"endTime":2163.06,"body":"pages, I'd have to drop it go"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2160.33,"endTime":2163.06,"body":"and write something. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2163.09,"endTime":2170.23,"body":"that's fine. You know? Yeah. So"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2163.09,"endTime":2170.23,"body":"human, and then systems,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2170.26,"endTime":2173.47,"body":"absolutely understanding"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2170.26,"endTime":2173.47,"body":"complexity, understanding flow,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2173.5,"endTime":2176.95,"body":"because it has a place I'm not"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2173.5,"endTime":2176.95,"body":"knocking it, I'm just so"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2176.95,"endTime":2180.22,"body":"understanding flow,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2176.95,"endTime":2180.22,"body":"understanding complexity, all"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2180.22,"endTime":2186.01,"body":"the systems thinking holistic,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2180.22,"endTime":2186.01,"body":"holistic, thinking, and then"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2186.25,"endTime":2190.66,"body":"adaptability. But carefully"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2186.25,"endTime":2190.66,"body":"avoiding the word agility as"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2190.66,"endTime":2194.41,"body":"somewhere, and if you can tell"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2190.66,"endTime":2194.41,"body":"me the origins, but there's a"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2194.89,"endTime":2197.29,"body":"wonderful thing I've seen come"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2194.89,"endTime":2197.29,"body":"up a number of times, which is"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2197.29,"endTime":2202.54,"body":"adaptability is agility plus"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2197.29,"endTime":2202.54,"body":"resilience. Right. So to be"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2202.54,"endTime":2206.5,"body":"adaptable to a VUCA world"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2202.54,"endTime":2206.5,"body":"towards constantly accelerating"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2206.5,"endTime":2211.78,"body":"rates of change in the world,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2206.5,"endTime":2211.78,"body":"which I firmly believe in that"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2211.81,"endTime":2215.5,"body":"you need to be adaptable. And"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2211.81,"endTime":2215.5,"body":"that means, first of all, being"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2215.74,"endTime":2220.18,"body":"small, agile, being able to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2215.74,"endTime":2220.18,"body":"change what you do very quickly."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2220.63,"endTime":2224.71,"body":"But also being highly resilient,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2220.63,"endTime":2224.71,"body":"to deal with the mistakes when"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2224.71,"endTime":2227.38,"body":"you're trying to change and to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2224.71,"endTime":2227.38,"body":"deal with the blows to be anti"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2227.38,"endTime":2230.41,"body":"fragile, right to deal with the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2227.38,"endTime":2230.41,"body":"blows that come from the world."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2230.83,"endTime":2233.95,"body":"And so I don't know where I saw"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2230.83,"endTime":2233.95,"body":"it first. I've seen it a number"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2233.95,"endTime":2238.69,"body":"of times, but the adaptability"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2233.95,"endTime":2238.69,"body":"is agility plus resilience. Love"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2238.69,"endTime":2240.67,"body":"it. Yeah, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2238.69,"endTime":2240.67,"body":"resilience is a big thing. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2240.67,"endTime":2246.31,"body":"mean, adaptability is that next"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2240.67,"endTime":2246.31,"body":"key, I think, agility, maybe we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2246.31,"endTime":2247.93,"body":"overuse, you know, because I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2247.93,"endTime":2249.76,"body":"like That's right."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2247.93,"endTime":2249.76,"body":"It's become"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2250.0,"endTime":2252.79,"body":"Yeah, I really like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2250.0,"endTime":2252.79,"body":"adaptability, right capacity,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2252.79,"endTime":2258.4,"body":"you know, adaptive capacity. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2252.79,"endTime":2258.4,"body":"just, you know, even sort of you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2258.4,"endTime":2260.98,"body":"in terms of skill sets, Jay"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2258.4,"endTime":2260.98,"body":"Blum, who I work has an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2260.98,"endTime":2265.99,"body":"incredible way of describing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2260.98,"endTime":2265.99,"body":"adaptive capacity in terms of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2265.99,"endTime":2270.37,"body":"your skills, but, but the thing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2265.99,"endTime":2270.37,"body":"I think I'm probably the best"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2270.37,"endTime":2274.69,"body":"body of work in this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2270.37,"endTime":2274.69,"body":"conversation really comes from"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2274.69,"endTime":2276.82,"body":"John OSPAR. Dr. Woods and Dr."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2274.69,"endTime":2276.82,"body":"Cook"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2277.059,"endTime":2278.469,"body":"for resilience."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2277.059,"endTime":2278.469,"body":"Totally. Yeah."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2278.47,"endTime":2281.95,"body":"And but but but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2278.47,"endTime":2281.95,"body":"but, but but again, not to say,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2281.95,"endTime":2284.77,"body":"well, they're resilience. These"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2281.95,"endTime":2284.77,"body":"guys are adaptive. I mean, yeah."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2284.83,"endTime":2287.62,"body":"But their, their project is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2284.83,"endTime":2287.62,"body":"called adaptive capacity labs."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2287.62,"endTime":2290.89,"body":"Right. Exactly. So to them. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2287.62,"endTime":2290.89,"body":"again, this is like, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2290.89,"endTime":2294.19,"body":"I'm trying to describe your Dr."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2290.89,"endTime":2294.19,"body":"Woods is probably it is the most"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2294.19,"endTime":2294.64,"body":"premium."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2295.0,"endTime":2297.25,"body":"The Wonder fits"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2295.0,"endTime":2297.25,"body":"where I got it from."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2297.28,"endTime":2299.47,"body":"Yeah, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2297.28,"endTime":2299.47,"body":"problem. I mean, he's just, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2299.47,"endTime":2302.05,"body":"mean, here's the point. I want"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2299.47,"endTime":2302.05,"body":"to make it like, it's definitely"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2302.05,"endTime":2305.56,"body":"one of the major sources, then."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2302.05,"endTime":2305.56,"body":"Surely, Decker talks about it."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2305.56,"endTime":2308.23,"body":"But Decker is really decors"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2305.56,"endTime":2308.23,"body":"really good at sort of telling a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2308.23,"endTime":2309.52,"body":"story in the common man."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2311.32,"endTime":2314.89,"body":"The stellar report"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2311.32,"endTime":2314.89,"body":"just floored me. Yeah, no, let's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2314.92,"endTime":2316.66,"body":"do it. Yeah. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2314.92,"endTime":2316.66,"body":"mean, because to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2316.66,"endTime":2319.54,"body":"me that as an ITSM"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2316.66,"endTime":2319.54,"body":"guy, as a service management"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2319.54,"endTime":2322.57,"body":"guy, yeah, I was like, these"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2319.54,"endTime":2322.57,"body":"guys are reinventing service"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2322.57,"endTime":2326.23,"body":"management. And they still do. I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2322.57,"endTime":2326.23,"body":"mean, they focus on they really"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2326.23,"endTime":2329.38,"body":"focus Incident Management"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2326.23,"endTime":2329.38,"body":"narrowing in, you know, John, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2329.379,"endTime":2333.669,"body":"love John's. My"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2329.379,"endTime":2333.669,"body":"favorite quote, John is incident"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2333.699,"endTime":2336.039,"body":"or incidents are unplanned"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2333.699,"endTime":2336.039,"body":"investments."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2336.069,"endTime":2338.349,"body":"Yeah, that was one"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2336.069,"endTime":2338.349,"body":"of the things that just I was"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2338.349,"endTime":2339.459,"body":"like, yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2339.49,"endTime":2342.22,"body":"no, I think if I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2339.49,"endTime":2342.22,"body":"had to summarize, which is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2342.22,"endTime":2345.46,"body":"dangerous for me to do to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2342.22,"endTime":2345.46,"body":"summarize, you, John, Richard"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2345.46,"endTime":2350.65,"body":"and Dr. Woods, is that I don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2345.46,"endTime":2350.65,"body":"think they would, they would"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2350.92,"endTime":2353.92,"body":"like, except that there's a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2350.92,"endTime":2353.92,"body":"difference between the term"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2353.92,"endTime":2358.66,"body":"adaptive and resilience. Like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2353.92,"endTime":2358.66,"body":"they're sort of intertwined. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2358.66,"endTime":2362.2,"body":"you know what I mean, they mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2358.66,"endTime":2362.2,"body":"the same thing. And that's a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2362.2,"endTime":2365.29,"body":"very layman's version of, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2362.2,"endTime":2365.29,"body":"if you read, you know, go to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2365.29,"endTime":2367.81,"body":"your blog, and you can read some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2365.29,"endTime":2367.81,"body":"of the stuff that I mean, if you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2367.81,"endTime":2370.39,"body":"want to really hurt your head,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2367.81,"endTime":2370.39,"body":"you know, try to read some of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2370.39,"endTime":2374.56,"body":"Dr. Woods, his papers, but, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2370.39,"endTime":2374.56,"body":"certainly, John tries to, yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2374.56,"endTime":2374.98,"body":"I'm"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2374.979,"endTime":2377.559,"body":"aware, I'm using"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2374.979,"endTime":2377.559,"body":"resilience in a very narrow"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2377.559,"endTime":2380.769,"body":"sense, and that once you start"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2377.559,"endTime":2380.769,"body":"talking about anti fragility"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2380.769,"endTime":2385.539,"body":"that resilience is tility and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2380.769,"endTime":2385.539,"body":"they're totally intertwined."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2385.539,"endTime":2387.219,"body":"They're totally Yeah, I get"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2385.539,"endTime":2387.219,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2387.4,"endTime":2390.1,"body":"And, and under"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2387.4,"endTime":2390.1,"body":"twined with all that, so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2390.1,"endTime":2393.73,"body":"actually, one of the interesting"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2390.1,"endTime":2393.73,"body":"things I've you know, I sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2393.73,"endTime":2396.19,"body":"stopped worrying about it, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2393.73,"endTime":2396.19,"body":"it used to frustrate the heck"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2396.19,"endTime":2400.27,"body":"that me that like Decker and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2396.19,"endTime":2400.27,"body":"woods and John and and Richard"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2400.27,"endTime":2407.38,"body":"Cook would literally just not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2400.27,"endTime":2407.38,"body":"accept the work of spear, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2407.38,"endTime":2411.52,"body":"Rother. All tax liens stuff. You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2407.38,"endTime":2411.52,"body":"know, they don't you know, they,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2411.64,"endTime":2415.3,"body":"I mean, you know, behind closed"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2411.64,"endTime":2415.3,"body":"doors, they would say they don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2415.3,"endTime":2418.33,"body":"get it right. And you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2415.3,"endTime":2418.33,"body":"tried to do I think what Gina,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2418.33,"endTime":2420.49,"body":"we had a two and a half hour"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2418.33,"endTime":2420.49,"body":"thing out of here. We're sorry."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2420.49,"endTime":2424.84,"body":"We got. We got. It was a great"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2420.49,"endTime":2424.84,"body":"day, we had Dr. Speier, we had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2424.87,"endTime":2428.14,"body":"Dr. Cook, and we had Cindy"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2424.87,"endTime":2428.14,"body":"Decker. And we did sort of a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2428.98,"endTime":2432.13,"body":"Charlie Rose, although I you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2428.98,"endTime":2432.13,"body":"know, I don't I'm not like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2432.46,"endTime":2435.88,"body":"Charlie Rose is not a good dude."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2432.46,"endTime":2435.88,"body":"But, but we use that kind of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2435.88,"endTime":2439.57,"body":"style. And it was great. It was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2435.88,"endTime":2439.57,"body":"two and a half hours. And at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2439.57,"endTime":2442.63,"body":"first they were sort of like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2439.57,"endTime":2442.63,"body":"didn't agree with each other."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2442.63,"endTime":2444.85,"body":"But after about an hour, they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2442.63,"endTime":2444.85,"body":"were like finishing each other"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2444.85,"endTime":2448.51,"body":"centers. And I just wanted to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2444.85,"endTime":2448.51,"body":"prove the point that both of you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2448.57,"endTime":2451.6,"body":"both groups talking about, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2448.57,"endTime":2451.6,"body":"mean, not everybody lean talks"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2451.6,"endTime":2455.44,"body":"about comp understands complex"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2451.6,"endTime":2455.44,"body":"systems. But Dr. Speier and my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2455.44,"endTime":2459.85,"body":"co author do, and I was trying"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2455.44,"endTime":2459.85,"body":"to convince cook in in Decker"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2460.48,"endTime":2463.12,"body":"that they're saying the same"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2460.48,"endTime":2463.12,"body":"thing. You're saying, Oh, no,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2463.12,"endTime":2465.73,"body":"rarely, and I'm like, dude,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2463.12,"endTime":2465.73,"body":"they're saying the same thing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2465.73,"endTime":2468.88,"body":"you're doing. And I think, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2465.73,"endTime":2468.88,"body":"know, Jean, and I pulled it off."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2468.88,"endTime":2472.99,"body":"He was a mission accomplished"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2468.88,"endTime":2472.99,"body":"area. And so it's about the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2472.99,"endTime":2474.49,"body":"overlay is complex systems,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2474.61,"endTime":2477.31,"body":"this totally so"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2474.61,"endTime":2477.31,"body":"yeah, the problem with Lean"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2477.31,"endTime":2482.02,"body":"thinking it over all those lean"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2477.31,"endTime":2482.02,"body":"people is where it is too"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2482.02,"endTime":2485.41,"body":"narrow, where it's just thinking"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2482.02,"endTime":2485.41,"body":"the whole world is flow. And as"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2485.41,"endTime":2487.21,"body":"simple linear, but I like this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2487.21,"endTime":2489.73,"body":"idea about flow. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2487.21,"endTime":2489.73,"body":"mean, you got you got me now. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2490.27,"endTime":2492.88,"body":"you sort of like now I got to go"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2490.27,"endTime":2492.88,"body":"off and do a little bit of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2492.94,"endTime":2494.02,"body":"unplanned research."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2495.129,"endTime":2498.249,"body":"I use the analogy"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2495.129,"endTime":2498.249,"body":"somewhere a while back in New"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2498.249,"endTime":2502.869,"body":"Zealand, we have the braided"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2498.249,"endTime":2502.869,"body":"rivers, which are the big wide"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2503.049,"endTime":2507.309,"body":"gravel pan rivers where, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2503.049,"endTime":2507.309,"body":"it goes from the mountains to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2507.309,"endTime":2510.969,"body":"the sea. But the channels are"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2507.309,"endTime":2510.969,"body":"constantly changing. And it's a"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2510.969,"endTime":2513.969,"body":"complex web of channels. And"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2510.969,"endTime":2513.969,"body":"every time there's a flood,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2513.999,"endTime":2516.879,"body":"they're all new channel, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2513.999,"endTime":2516.879,"body":"Yeah, it's not even like your"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2516.879,"endTime":2520.749,"body":"OXPHOS in the US where it just"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2516.879,"endTime":2520.749,"body":"makes a new single channel."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2520.779,"endTime":2525.339,"body":"Yeah, it's a braided, it's just,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2520.779,"endTime":2525.339,"body":"it looks like there's 100"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2525.339,"endTime":2530.199,"body":"channels at any one time all"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2525.339,"endTime":2530.199,"body":"over the place. And so you've"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2530.199,"endTime":2533.379,"body":"got your mountain stream, which"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2530.199,"endTime":2533.379,"body":"is a nice simple from here to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2533.379,"endTime":2536.409,"body":"there, flow, very clear cut,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2533.379,"endTime":2536.409,"body":"then you've got your braided"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2536.409,"endTime":2539.349,"body":"river, which is still pretty"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2536.409,"endTime":2539.349,"body":"generally a flow, but still you"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2539.349,"endTime":2543.039,"body":"couldn't met the detail of it at"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2539.349,"endTime":2543.039,"body":"any point in time, because it's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2543.039,"endTime":2546.699,"body":"constantly changing. And then"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2543.039,"endTime":2546.699,"body":"you've got your Everglades"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2546.759,"endTime":2551.529,"body":"where, yeah, you can pretty well"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2546.759,"endTime":2551.529,"body":"tell that water's coming in over"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2551.529,"endTime":2554.559,"body":"there, and it's going at the sea"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2551.529,"endTime":2554.559,"body":"over there. But it's pretty hard"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2554.559,"endTime":2555.819,"body":"to tell when you're in the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2554.559,"endTime":2555.819,"body":"Everglades."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2557.23,"endTime":2560.26,"body":"any given time, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2557.23,"endTime":2560.26,"body":"know, it's the quantum"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2560.26,"endTime":2564.19,"body":"experiment right there. Yeah."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2560.26,"endTime":2564.19,"body":"Yeah, no."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2565.48,"endTime":2567.46,"body":"So that's the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2565.48,"endTime":2567.46,"body":"circle bag. That's what we're"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2567.46,"endTime":2573.13,"body":"doing. Yeah. Sexuality, and, and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2567.46,"endTime":2573.13,"body":"people get it."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2574.69,"endTime":2577.51,"body":"Here's the biggest"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2574.69,"endTime":2577.51,"body":"problem, right? Like, I can go"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2577.51,"endTime":2581.23,"body":"into a leader and I can sort of,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2577.51,"endTime":2581.23,"body":"I think, like, I'm like, Okay,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2581.23,"endTime":2584.02,"body":"I'm gonna really craft this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2581.23,"endTime":2584.02,"body":"thing that I want them to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2584.02,"endTime":2588.55,"body":"understand. And in sometimes,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2584.02,"endTime":2588.55,"body":"you know, this sort of smiling"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2588.73,"endTime":2592.9,"body":"kind of John, and I go away and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2588.73,"endTime":2592.9,"body":"like, a month goes by a month"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2592.9,"endTime":2596.65,"body":"goes by, and it could be that it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2592.9,"endTime":2596.65,"body":"just sort of rolls off. But a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2596.65,"endTime":2599.32,"body":"lot of times, I wonder if they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2596.65,"endTime":2599.32,"body":"just never really got it in the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2599.32,"endTime":2603.97,"body":"first place. And, and I like I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2599.32,"endTime":2603.97,"body":"think to me, that's our biggest"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2603.97,"endTime":2607.21,"body":"problem. I work with Andrew clay"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2603.97,"endTime":2607.21,"body":"Shea from the He's incredible. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2607.21,"endTime":2610.48,"body":"work Kevin bear. I mean, I'm on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2607.21,"endTime":2610.48,"body":"a team of Kevin Bay educate"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2610.48,"endTime":2615.19,"body":"Shaffer and Jay bloom and a blue"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2610.48,"endTime":2615.19,"body":"smartest of all of us. And it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2615.19,"endTime":2617.95,"body":"seems like we go in and we tell"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2615.19,"endTime":2617.95,"body":"all these people these, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2617.95,"endTime":2620.29,"body":"know, like, I sit back and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2617.95,"endTime":2620.29,"body":"listen to Jay Blum, explain"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2620.29,"endTime":2624.4,"body":"something to a C level person."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2620.29,"endTime":2624.4,"body":"And I wonder, like, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2624.4,"endTime":2625.42,"body":"that's getting worse."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2625.57,"endTime":2630.37,"body":"i Okay, so let me"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2625.57,"endTime":2630.37,"body":"go one more step than that."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2632.95,"endTime":2637.69,"body":"Let's talk about my wife."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2632.95,"endTime":2637.69,"body":"Alright. So Dr. Foo, Dr. Cherry"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2637.69,"endTime":2644.65,"body":"foo, I met five years ago. And"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2637.69,"endTime":2644.65,"body":"she just finished her PhD in"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2644.65,"endTime":2648.88,"body":"public policy, okay. And we, she"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2644.65,"endTime":2648.88,"body":"was off to go work in"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2648.88,"endTime":2653.53,"body":"government. I'm like, come work"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2648.88,"endTime":2653.53,"body":"with me. And she said, I don't"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2653.53,"endTime":2658.42,"body":"know anything about what you do."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2653.53,"endTime":2658.42,"body":"And so she studied what I do."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2659.35,"endTime":2666.31,"body":"And we became management"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2659.35,"endTime":2666.31,"body":"consultants together. She now"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2666.34,"endTime":2670.99,"body":"she's fit me. He's obviously"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2666.34,"endTime":2670.99,"body":"Jerry boo and in influence,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2671.02,"endTime":2674.86,"body":"she's native Vietnamese. She's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2671.02,"endTime":2674.86,"body":"doing all her work in Vietnam."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2674.86,"endTime":2679.33,"body":"We started taking these cool"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2674.86,"endTime":2679.33,"body":"ideas to Vietnam. And I'm now"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2679.33,"endTime":2684.31,"body":"learning from her big time and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2679.33,"endTime":2684.31,"body":"what I'm learning from her to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2684.31,"endTime":2690.16,"body":"your point is third, cherry"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2684.31,"endTime":2690.16,"body":"understands all these things"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2690.16,"endTime":2693.7,"body":"we're talking about, but she"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2690.16,"endTime":2693.7,"body":"has. She doesn't tell them much."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2694.72,"endTime":2699.07,"body":"She's very practical to them."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2694.72,"endTime":2699.07,"body":"She just says do this. Try that"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2699.1,"endTime":2703.39,"body":"No. Right and and they"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2699.1,"endTime":2703.39,"body":"experience actually discovered"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2703.39,"endTime":2707.29,"body":"this stuff. But when she tries"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2703.39,"endTime":2707.29,"body":"to give them the ideas, like you"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2707.29,"endTime":2710.8,"body":"say they're all going uh huh, uh"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2707.29,"endTime":2710.8,"body":"huh. Yeah, yeah. But but she's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2710.8,"endTime":2715.84,"body":"very much about just start where"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2710.8,"endTime":2715.84,"body":"you are and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2715.87,"endTime":2721.63,"body":"experiment and experience to try"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2715.87,"endTime":2721.63,"body":"these things. And they're doing."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2721.99,"endTime":2727.39,"body":"Her clients are just doing the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2721.99,"endTime":2727.39,"body":"most amazing stuff that we're"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2727.39,"endTime":2731.71,"body":"podcasting next week on Friday"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2727.39,"endTime":2731.71,"body":"to talk about it just to local"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2731.71,"endTime":2737.08,"body":"Welly podcast, but it's global."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2731.71,"endTime":2737.08,"body":"So anyone can jump in on meetup,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2737.23,"endTime":2742.03,"body":"I'll give you the link to that."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2737.23,"endTime":2742.03,"body":"Yeah. But because it's all in"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2742.03,"endTime":2745.87,"body":"Vietnamese behind a language"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2742.03,"endTime":2745.87,"body":"barrier, and the business"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2745.87,"endTime":2749.77,"body":"agility Institute, we did an"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2745.87,"endTime":2749.77,"body":"article on the emergence journal"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2750.61,"endTime":2753.73,"body":"a little while ago, about but"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2750.61,"endTime":2753.73,"body":"some people don't really know"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2753.73,"endTime":2756.67,"body":"what she's doing. But can I give"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2753.73,"endTime":2756.67,"body":"you a couple of quick examples?"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2757.03,"endTime":2760.06,"body":"Absolutely. So I mean, we are"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2757.03,"endTime":2760.06,"body":"working with one of the biggest"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2760.06,"endTime":2767.41,"body":"banks in Vietnam, and they've"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2760.06,"endTime":2767.41,"body":"had like integer multipliers in"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2767.41,"endTime":2771.34,"body":"the increase in revenue in the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2767.41,"endTime":2771.34,"body":"areas that are working with"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2771.37,"endTime":2776.83,"body":"their 235 times, the revenues,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2771.37,"endTime":2776.83,"body":"one of the area's she worked"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2776.83,"endTime":2779.74,"body":"with, they met their annual"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2776.83,"endTime":2779.74,"body":"quota in a month, right? So"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2781.03,"endTime":2783.94,"body":"she's just doing it. That's what"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2781.03,"endTime":2783.94,"body":"I'm saying. She's just getting"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2783.94,"endTime":2787.9,"body":"in there and doing it. And it's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2783.94,"endTime":2787.9,"body":"all about empowering teams and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2787.9,"endTime":2793.78,"body":"allowing skills, not roles and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2787.9,"endTime":2793.78,"body":"fluidity of work and experiment,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2793.78,"endTime":2798.97,"body":"explore and servant manager and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2793.78,"endTime":2798.97,"body":"hierarchy and, you know, all"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2798.97,"endTime":2802.87,"body":"these sort of humanistic things"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2798.97,"endTime":2802.87,"body":"that we're familiar with in the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2802.87,"endTime":2808.51,"body":"big seat culture. DevOps, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2802.87,"endTime":2808.51,"body":"And that's where it all came"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2808.51,"endTime":2811.45,"body":"from. I mean, I shared it all"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2808.51,"endTime":2811.45,"body":"with it when we first met,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2811.6,"endTime":2819.1,"body":"right? And, oh, there's a real"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2811.6,"endTime":2819.1,"body":"estate agency had about 40"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2819.1,"endTime":2826.9,"body":"people and has a lovely lady who"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2819.1,"endTime":2826.9,"body":"owns it, but she would just give"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2826.9,"endTime":2829.45,"body":"anyone a go someone say I want"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2826.9,"endTime":2829.45,"body":"to sell real estate. Okay, come"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2829.45,"endTime":2833.26,"body":"on board, right. You're mostly"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2829.45,"endTime":2833.26,"body":"on commission, you get a small"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2833.26,"endTime":2836.77,"body":"monthly retainer, but you might"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2833.26,"endTime":2836.77,"body":"associate 42 People who was"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2836.77,"endTime":2843.22,"body":"selling very little. And we just"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2836.77,"endTime":2843.22,"body":"allow them to self organize, and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2843.22,"endTime":2848.05,"body":"took the whole management layer"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2843.22,"endTime":2848.05,"body":"out. They were creating fluid"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2848.05,"endTime":2851.62,"body":"teams and working away and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2848.05,"endTime":2851.62,"body":"suddenly bond they're selling"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2851.62,"endTime":2855.67,"body":"all this stuff. And a bunch of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2851.62,"endTime":2855.67,"body":"people left they changed the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2855.67,"endTime":2859.69,"body":"commissioning structure to pay"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2855.67,"endTime":2859.69,"body":"everybody and not pay the sales"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2859.69,"endTime":2860.95,"body":"people the superstar"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2861.4,"endTime":2865.42,"body":"ministration This"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2861.4,"endTime":2865.42,"body":"is a damning prime idea. Or they"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2865.42,"endTime":2868.72,"body":"totally totally"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2865.42,"endTime":2868.72,"body":"it's all straight out. And and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2868.72,"endTime":2871.21,"body":"so a whole lot of the prima"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2868.72,"endTime":2871.21,"body":"donnas left and said if I can't"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2871.21,"endTime":2873.79,"body":"get the huge bucks pay up"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2871.21,"endTime":2873.79,"body":"because I'm the super salesman,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2873.79,"endTime":2878.65,"body":"I'm out of here. And he was"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2873.79,"endTime":2878.65,"body":"like, Okay, bye. And and, and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2878.65,"endTime":2882.94,"body":"then a whole bunch of the people"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2878.65,"endTime":2882.94,"body":"said, this is a brilliant"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2882.94,"endTime":2887.5,"body":"formula for a real estate agency"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2882.94,"endTime":2887.5,"body":"hungry leaving. And she rings"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2887.5,"endTime":2889.93,"body":"cheery up and go, Well, my best"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2887.5,"endTime":2889.93,"body":"people are now going off to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2889.93,"endTime":2894.37,"body":"start their own agency. Jerry's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2889.93,"endTime":2894.37,"body":"like great. Good. All right, you"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2894.37,"endTime":2899.08,"body":"know, excellent, allowing them"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2894.37,"endTime":2899.08,"body":"to grow. Stay in touch. So she"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2899.08,"endTime":2903.1,"body":"kept tight working relationship."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2899.08,"endTime":2903.1,"body":"So now there's all these up."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2903.1,"endTime":2906.52,"body":"There's now several other"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2903.1,"endTime":2906.52,"body":"agencies working this way. And"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2906.52,"endTime":2910.39,"body":"they all collaborate to pass"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2906.52,"endTime":2910.39,"body":"work between each other Oh, hang"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2910.42,"endTime":2914.56,"body":"is hung had a baby. And there"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2910.42,"endTime":2914.56,"body":"was all the stress of having a"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2914.56,"endTime":2920.05,"body":"first baby and trying to shape"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2914.56,"endTime":2920.05,"body":"the stages. So she went from 42"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2920.2,"endTime":2924.49,"body":"unproductive people to now she's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2920.2,"endTime":2924.49,"body":"got about three. And she's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2924.49,"endTime":2928.69,"body":"selling as much stuff as she"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2924.49,"endTime":2928.69,"body":"used to with 40 people. He just"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2928.69,"endTime":2931.66,"body":"got rid of the big office, right"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2928.69,"endTime":2931.66,"body":"collective story,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2931.84,"endTime":2934.03,"body":"because now she's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2931.84,"endTime":2934.03,"body":"everybody sort of working"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2934.03,"endTime":2935.29,"body":"together. And it's pure"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2935.29,"endTime":2937.6,"body":"to me, oh, green,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2935.29,"endTime":2937.6,"body":"right just below but it's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2937.6,"endTime":2941.26,"body":"straight out of the playbook"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2937.6,"endTime":2941.26,"body":"that people who could have been"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2941.26,"endTime":2946.75,"body":"her competitors are in fact, her"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2941.26,"endTime":2946.75,"body":"collaborators. yada yada. It's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2946.75,"endTime":2950.17,"body":"just the most beautiful story."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2946.75,"endTime":2950.17,"body":"And of course, it's hidden in"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2950.17,"endTime":2953.35,"body":"Vietnam. So I'm trying to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2950.17,"endTime":2953.35,"body":"surface the stuff."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2953.38,"endTime":2956.32,"body":"Yeah, no kidding."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2953.38,"endTime":2956.32,"body":"No, I think"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2958.36,"endTime":2961.24,"body":"the big learning"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2958.36,"endTime":2961.24,"body":"from cherry is that she she does"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2961.24,"endTime":2965.59,"body":"teach theory. Right? She runs"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2961.24,"endTime":2965.59,"body":"through quite right. But really"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2965.59,"endTime":2967.93,"body":"she drives them to the behavior."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2965.59,"endTime":2967.93,"body":"It's just come on. Let's do"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2967.93,"endTime":2970.27,"body":"stuff. Let's have an open space."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2967.93,"endTime":2970.27,"body":"Let's work out what we're gonna"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2970.27,"endTime":2973.18,"body":"do rocker rocker rocker WAM"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":2970.27,"endTime":2973.18,"body":"experiment, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2973.389,"endTime":2975.789,"body":"I'm gonna make some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2973.389,"endTime":2975.789,"body":"wild sort of guesses here. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2975.789,"endTime":2981.759,"body":"like, I think one the idea of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2975.789,"endTime":2981.759,"body":"coming at it. There's a I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2981.759,"endTime":2985.899,"body":"it's in blink or tipping point,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2981.759,"endTime":2985.899,"body":"Malcolm Gladwell, where this guy"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2985.899,"endTime":2989.859,"body":"comes in. And he, it's like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2985.899,"endTime":2989.859,"body":"every year they have this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2989.859,"endTime":2997.209,"body":"massive war game game of Navy"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2989.859,"endTime":2997.209,"body":"ships like big auditorium, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2997.209,"endTime":2999.969,"body":"this guy comes in and he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2997.209,"endTime":2999.969,"body":"basically breaks all the rules."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2999.999,"endTime":3003.089,"body":"But there are no rules. So he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2999.999,"endTime":3003.089,"body":"basically wins the whole thing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3003.089,"endTime":3008.519,"body":"because he his strategy is like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3003.089,"endTime":3008.519,"body":"this to kill off like 70% of his"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3008.519,"endTime":3013.889,"body":"PT boats, you know, which no"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3008.519,"endTime":3013.889,"body":"army would do. And, and he wins"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3013.889,"endTime":3016.169,"body":"and they're all furious. Like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3013.889,"endTime":3016.169,"body":"you can't do that, like, where's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3016.169,"endTime":3018.929,"body":"the rulebook? They can so he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3016.169,"endTime":3018.929,"body":"wins the first year, he actually"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3018.929,"endTime":3022.139,"body":"never done it before. So there's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3018.929,"endTime":3022.139,"body":"probably some of that with Jerry"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3022.139,"endTime":3025.709,"body":"where she didn't she doesn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3022.139,"endTime":3025.709,"body":"have all the sort of memory"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3025.709,"endTime":3029.279,"body":"muscle or the things that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3025.709,"endTime":3029.279,"body":"totally it comes into. It's it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3029.279,"endTime":3033.029,"body":"looks at it learns from you and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3029.279,"endTime":3033.029,"body":"says, and then I wonder if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3033.029,"endTime":3036.539,"body":"there's not sort of, there are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3033.029,"endTime":3036.539,"body":"like certain cultures that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3036.599,"endTime":3040.649,"body":"really do accept that do this,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3036.599,"endTime":3040.649,"body":"do this, do this, do this. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3040.649,"endTime":3045.749,"body":"if you do it right, in a way"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3040.649,"endTime":3045.749,"body":"that enables them to do this,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3045.749,"endTime":3049.529,"body":"things are helping them learn. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3045.749,"endTime":3049.529,"body":"can see that combo, but again,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3049.529,"endTime":3051.269,"body":"that's just a wild wild guess."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3051.599,"endTime":3056.519,"body":"Yeah. Well, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3051.599,"endTime":3056.519,"body":"what I didn't mention is that"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3058.229,"endTime":3064.229,"body":"she's not a nobody in Vietnam."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3058.229,"endTime":3064.229,"body":"Okay, so I said so she, she has"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3064.229,"endTime":3065.789,"body":"the, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3067.199,"endTime":3069.839,"body":"Yeah, nephew adult."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3067.199,"endTime":3069.839,"body":"Okay. I think you're old enough"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3069.839,"endTime":3073.199,"body":"to get that she's better. We had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3069.839,"endTime":3073.199,"body":"it was a commercial for EF"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3073.199,"endTime":3076.559,"body":"Hutton. You know, we have Hutton"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3073.199,"endTime":3076.559,"body":"talks. People listen."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3078.57,"endTime":3082.56,"body":"Totally she and New"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3078.57,"endTime":3082.56,"body":"Zealand we say mana, which is"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3082.56,"endTime":3091.95,"body":"like prestige, not prestige, but"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3082.56,"endTime":3091.95,"body":"presence. Respect. And yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3091.95,"endTime":3099.03,"body":"mean, she has manner she used to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3091.95,"endTime":3099.03,"body":"be a lecturer at the Institute"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3099.06,"endTime":3102.21,"body":"of Public Management, which are"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3099.06,"endTime":3102.21,"body":"what I think what it's called,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3102.21,"endTime":3104.64,"body":"but it's kind of where all the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3102.21,"endTime":3104.64,"body":"senior civil servants and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3104.64,"endTime":3108.57,"body":"politicians and party members"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3104.64,"endTime":3108.57,"body":"all go to learn to be since"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3108.6,"endTime":3112.29,"body":"civil servants. Oh, okay. It's"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3108.6,"endTime":3112.29,"body":"like Singapore, they have a"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3112.29,"endTime":3117.03,"body":"professionalized. Okay. Civil"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3112.29,"endTime":3117.03,"body":"Service, right. And so some of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3117.03,"endTime":3120.0,"body":"the most powerful people in"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3117.03,"endTime":3120.0,"body":"Vietnam have had the small woman"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3120.0,"endTime":3122.91,"body":"at the front of the room funny,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3120.0,"endTime":3122.91,"body":"telling them what to do. Right?"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3123.63,"endTime":3128.76,"body":"In the past, and, and so a lot"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3123.63,"endTime":3128.76,"body":"of, she has connections, and,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3128.85,"endTime":3132.09,"body":"and she has built her own"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3128.85,"endTime":3132.09,"body":"companies in Vietnam. In the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3132.09,"endTime":3137.16,"body":"past, she's been a CEO. And she"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3132.09,"endTime":3137.16,"body":"has degrees in accounting and"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3137.16,"endTime":3140.31,"body":"law in Vietnam. So, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3137.16,"endTime":3140.31,"body":"she's coming from a position of"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3140.31,"endTime":3144.54,"body":"credibility. Right, right."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3140.31,"endTime":3144.54,"body":"Definitely. Which I can't match."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3144.57,"endTime":3150.48,"body":"And yeah. And so she did, she"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3144.57,"endTime":3150.48,"body":"has a particularly advantageous"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3151.11,"endTime":3154.41,"body":"position, and also to be a woman"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3151.11,"endTime":3154.41,"body":"who left the country and went"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3154.41,"endTime":3155.88,"body":"and did a PhD overseas and,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3156.03,"endTime":3158.85,"body":"okay, yeah. But all"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3159.15,"endTime":3160.2,"body":"specialize."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3160.739,"endTime":3162.869,"body":"The meta point is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3160.739,"endTime":3162.869,"body":"trying to find that way that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3162.869,"endTime":3167.129,"body":"actually can help people learn"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3162.869,"endTime":3167.129,"body":"for themselves. Um, so anyway, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3167.129,"endTime":3169.229,"body":"think, you know, I've been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3167.129,"endTime":3169.229,"body":"trying to hear these"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3169.229,"endTime":3171.659,"body":"conversations where I'm like, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3169.229,"endTime":3171.659,"body":"got my choice, I can split it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3171.659,"endTime":3176.219,"body":"into two parts. Or, and I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3171.659,"endTime":3176.219,"body":"trying to figure out what what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3176.219,"endTime":3179.609,"body":"do people listen to listen to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3176.219,"endTime":3179.609,"body":"podcasts? Are they okay, with an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3179.609,"endTime":3182.909,"body":"hour and 10 minutes? or so?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3179.609,"endTime":3182.909,"body":"Anyway, but at this point, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3182.909,"endTime":3187.079,"body":"asked you to say, and we shall"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3182.909,"endTime":3187.079,"body":"do this again. But how do people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3187.079,"endTime":3189.539,"body":"reach out to you and find you?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3187.079,"endTime":3189.539,"body":"If you want?"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3190.679,"endTime":3194.129,"body":"Oh, absolutely. Um,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3190.679,"endTime":3194.129,"body":"till unicorn we call ourselves."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3195.359,"endTime":3198.749,"body":"So teal unicorn.com is where we"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3195.359,"endTime":3198.749,"body":"live. And there's a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3198.749,"endTime":3203.339,"body":"stories and the stuff there. And"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3198.749,"endTime":3203.339,"body":"there's a Contact page there. Or"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3203.339,"endTime":3205.439,"body":"I'm very active on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3203.339,"endTime":3205.439,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3208.019,"endTime":3210.419,"body":"Well, my friend, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3208.019,"endTime":3210.419,"body":"can't wait till we get to see"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3210.419,"endTime":3215.369,"body":"each other in person again."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3210.419,"endTime":3215.369,"body":"Yeah. i There's a pent up you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3215.369,"endTime":3218.429,"body":"know, I think I was sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3215.369,"endTime":3218.429,"body":"upset about I came. For years, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3218.429,"endTime":3221.699,"body":"worked for myself, right? So I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3218.429,"endTime":3221.699,"body":"was gonna be various sort of,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3222.179,"endTime":3224.429,"body":"you know, it's a very sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3222.179,"endTime":3224.429,"body":"structured way, someone's got to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3224.429,"endTime":3226.889,"body":"pay for it. Then I go to work"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3224.429,"endTime":3226.889,"body":"for Red Hat. I'm thinking I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3226.889,"endTime":3228.869,"body":"gonna be great. I'm gonna be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3226.889,"endTime":3228.869,"body":"able to travel around the world."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3228.869,"endTime":3232.499,"body":"They're gonna want me to travel"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3228.869,"endTime":3232.499,"body":"in a pandemic hit so, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3233.88,"endTime":3235.86,"body":"a bit. You did a"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3233.88,"endTime":3235.86,"body":"bit of work for one of my"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3235.86,"endTime":3240.51,"body":"clients here in New Zealand. Oh,"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3235.86,"endTime":3240.51,"body":"yeah. Love those guys. Yeah. And"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3240.51,"endTime":3244.62,"body":"so we might have to get you up"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3240.51,"endTime":3244.62,"body":"to Vietnam sometime. Oh, I'd"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3244.619,"endTime":3247.469,"body":"love that. Oh, my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3244.619,"endTime":3247.469,"body":"goodness. As soon as this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3247.469,"endTime":3251.699,"body":"thing's over, man, I'd like I'll"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3247.469,"endTime":3251.699,"body":"tell you like, I don't know what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3251.699,"endTime":3253.679,"body":"are your favorite whiskey or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3251.699,"endTime":3253.679,"body":"wine?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3254.099,"endTime":3255.989,"body":"We're hoping to get up"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3254.099,"endTime":3255.989,"body":"there in May."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3257.16,"endTime":3259.17,"body":"So let me know if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3257.16,"endTime":3259.17,"body":"there's a way that makes sense"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3259.17,"endTime":3263.43,"body":"me. That's one place on like, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3259.17,"endTime":3263.43,"body":"have never been and it's sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3263.43,"endTime":3264.54,"body":"a bucket list place to"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3264.539,"endTime":3267.359,"body":"go. So definitely a"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3264.539,"endTime":3267.359,"body":"great place. Yeah, hanging out"},{"speaker":"Rob England","startTime":3267.359,"endTime":3268.139,"body":"to get back there."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3268.38,"endTime":3271.92,"body":"Sure. All right, my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3268.38,"endTime":3271.92,"body":"friend. As always awesome. Have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3271.92,"endTime":3276.84,"body":"a conversation with you. Totally"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3271.92,"endTime":3276.84,"body":"clicked. I backticks."}]}