{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":0.0,"endTime":0.75,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2.82,"endTime":6.51,"body":"Hey, this is John Willis again,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2.82,"endTime":6.51,"body":"and I got a really awesome guest"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":6.51,"endTime":9.87,"body":"this morning for the profound"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":6.51,"endTime":9.87,"body":"podcast. Dennis, you want to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":9.87,"endTime":10.74,"body":"introduce yourself?"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":11.82,"endTime":16.14,"body":"Sure. I'm Dennis"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":11.82,"endTime":16.14,"body":"Sergent. I'm the President and"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":16.14,"endTime":22.59,"body":"Principal Consultant of Sergent"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":16.14,"endTime":22.59,"body":"results group. And the group is"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":22.59,"endTime":27.81,"body":"myself and some contractors that"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":22.59,"endTime":27.81,"body":"I know very well. And I've been"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":27.84,"endTime":34.14,"body":"working in independently as a"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":27.84,"endTime":34.14,"body":"consultant for management for"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":34.14,"endTime":38.55,"body":"several years now. Prior to"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":34.14,"endTime":38.55,"body":"that, I worked in the telecom"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":38.55,"endTime":43.65,"body":"industry. And I have a long"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":38.55,"endTime":43.65,"body":"history there, as well as that"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":43.65,"endTime":45.42,"body":"was a management consultant."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":46.44,"endTime":49.26,"body":"Yeah, no. And we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":46.44,"endTime":49.26,"body":"sort of met on LinkedIn, which"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":49.26,"endTime":52.77,"body":"was kind of fun. You reached out"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":49.26,"endTime":52.77,"body":"to me, but so you're at Deming"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":52.77,"endTime":57.39,"body":"fan we'd talked prior about, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":52.77,"endTime":57.39,"body":"know, sort of this short time it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":57.39,"endTime":61.11,"body":"gets sort of in your head, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":57.39,"endTime":61.11,"body":"guess, at some point. 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The first"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":79.95,"endTime":84.42,"body":"time I heard of him was in 1980."},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":85.11,"endTime":89.01,"body":"I happened to be watching that"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":85.11,"endTime":89.01,"body":"NBC special with Japan, Ken"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":89.04,"endTime":93.24,"body":"bike, and we. And when he spoke,"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":94.32,"endTime":97.41,"body":"it clicked to me that here's"},{"speaker":"Dennis Sergent","startTime":94.32,"endTime":97.41,"body":"somebody who knows"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":98.43,"endTime":102.18,"body":"a lot of the truths"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":98.43,"endTime":102.18,"body":"that I've seen, at the time, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":102.18,"endTime":107.43,"body":"was working in the telecom"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":102.18,"endTime":107.43,"body":"industry. And I was unknowingly"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":107.43,"endTime":111.54,"body":"a student of Walter Shewhart,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":107.43,"endTime":111.54,"body":"somewhat like Dr. Deming had"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":111.54,"endTime":119.49,"body":"been. And so fast forward from"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":111.54,"endTime":119.49,"body":"1980 to somewhere in the early"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":119.49,"endTime":125.46,"body":"90s, I had read Demings first"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":119.49,"endTime":125.46,"body":"book, or I should say his next"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":125.46,"endTime":130.08,"body":"of the last book, it was a first"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":125.46,"endTime":130.08,"body":"for me, I really crisis. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":130.08,"endTime":135.9,"body":"then mid 90s, I discovered that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":130.08,"endTime":135.9,"body":"he had died, and that there was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":135.9,"endTime":141.81,"body":"another book, The New Economics."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":135.9,"endTime":141.81,"body":"And that's when I was at that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":141.81,"endTime":145.83,"body":"vulnerable stage where I had a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":141.81,"endTime":145.83,"body":"lot to accomplish as our company"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":145.83,"endTime":151.05,"body":"was restructuring. 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The his"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":207.24,"endTime":210.03,"body":"work?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":210.9,"endTime":216.12,"body":"Yeah. Though, the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":210.9,"endTime":216.12,"body":"engineers and people who worked"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":216.12,"endTime":219.87,"body":"more closely with Bell"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":216.12,"endTime":219.87,"body":"Laboratories had different"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":219.87,"endTime":224.82,"body":"influences from different"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":219.87,"endTime":224.82,"body":"scientists there. The connection"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":224.82,"endTime":228.39,"body":"to shoe hearts work was through"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":224.82,"endTime":228.39,"body":"a brown book that we referred to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":228.39,"endTime":234.09,"body":"as the Bible. 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It wasn't until"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":324.96,"endTime":329.67,"body":"well, after I had gotten into"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":329.67,"endTime":334.26,"body":"management that I discovered"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":329.67,"endTime":334.26,"body":"Deming and his work resonated,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":334.26,"endTime":338.94,"body":"because the truth was, in my"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":334.26,"endTime":338.94,"body":"experience, what I could, what I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":338.94,"endTime":342.39,"body":"could see as evidence."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":344.37,"endTime":346.86,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":344.37,"endTime":346.86,"body":"think, you know, like, I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":346.92,"endTime":352.74,"body":"I'm sure, you know, I'm, I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":346.92,"endTime":352.74,"body":"more of a sort of a study of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":352.74,"endTime":357.09,"body":"Deming than an implementer of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":352.74,"endTime":357.09,"body":"Deming, although, trying to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":357.09,"endTime":361.35,"body":"change that a little bit, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":357.09,"endTime":361.35,"body":"know, but, you know, from the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":361.35,"endTime":364.32,"body":"way I've sort of read the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":361.35,"endTime":364.32,"body":"history is that, you know, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":364.35,"endTime":368.7,"body":"like, should primarily focus and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":364.35,"endTime":368.7,"body":"correct me, you know, I'd like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":368.7,"endTime":371.82,"body":"to hear your opinion, he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":368.7,"endTime":371.82,"body":"primarily focused on the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":371.82,"endTime":375.33,"body":"manufacturing problem, which was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":371.82,"endTime":375.33,"body":"basically the, you know, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":375.33,"endTime":379.29,"body":"sort of Bell Labs, a telco"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":375.33,"endTime":379.29,"body":"problem. And what Deming did was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":379.32,"endTime":383.37,"body":"basically able to translate that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":379.32,"endTime":383.37,"body":"into sort of just everything."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":383.79,"endTime":387.9,"body":"Yes, yeah. That's,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":383.79,"endTime":387.9,"body":"that's an accurate way, I think,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":387.93,"endTime":393.78,"body":"to describe it. 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He"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":632.58,"endTime":635.85,"body":"worked with Dr. Deming for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":632.58,"endTime":635.85,"body":"several years, he helped"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":635.85,"endTime":640.95,"body":"facilitate several of his four"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":635.85,"endTime":640.95,"body":"day seminars around the world."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":641.19,"endTime":648.33,"body":"And he just got to be a real"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":641.19,"endTime":648.33,"body":"hero. And I'm honored to be in a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":648.36,"endTime":656.04,"body":"very brief video or two, with"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":648.36,"endTime":656.04,"body":"with him, where the Deming"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":656.04,"endTime":659.22,"body":"Institute has put together these"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":656.04,"endTime":659.22,"body":"videos for their online learning"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":659.22,"endTime":665.49,"body":"program. And, you know, to me,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":659.22,"endTime":665.49,"body":"it's like a super honor to be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":665.49,"endTime":670.05,"body":"featured on the same video clip"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":665.49,"endTime":670.05,"body":"with Ron, you know, saying what"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":670.05,"endTime":674.55,"body":"he has to say. And other Deming"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":670.05,"endTime":674.55,"body":"scholars like him, sadly, he's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":674.55,"endTime":675.0,"body":"gone."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":675.089,"endTime":677.639,"body":"Yeah, no, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":675.089,"endTime":677.639,"body":"it's, like I said, by the time I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":677.639,"endTime":680.699,"body":"saw there was a there's just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":677.639,"endTime":680.699,"body":"these giants that by the time I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":680.699,"endTime":683.639,"body":"started becoming aware of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":680.699,"endTime":683.639,"body":"Deming, they were all sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":683.639,"endTime":687.419,"body":"gone. 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That to me is so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":689.669,"endTime":693.959,"body":"like, I spent so much time you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":693.959,"endTime":698.729,"body":"know, sort of learning so much"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":693.959,"endTime":698.729,"body":"and read every book that's been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":698.729,"endTime":701.789,"body":"written about Deming, read pay,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":698.729,"endTime":701.789,"body":"I mean, just like my life has"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":701.789,"endTime":705.239,"body":"been, particularly during the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":701.789,"endTime":705.239,"body":"pandemic, when I finished, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":705.509,"endTime":710.699,"body":"literally finished my book. Now,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":705.509,"endTime":710.699,"body":"I have the five revisions. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":711.149,"endTime":712.739,"body":"one of the things was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":711.149,"endTime":712.739,"body":"interesting about Deming, and it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":712.739,"endTime":716.369,"body":"sounds like, it was clear that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":712.739,"endTime":716.369,"body":"Ron had the same trait, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":716.579,"endTime":722.399,"body":"Deming was very precise about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":716.579,"endTime":722.399,"body":"his words. Yes, simple word. To"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":722.399,"endTime":725.969,"body":"him had to be sort of like not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":722.399,"endTime":725.969,"body":"being hard to like, he's he used"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":725.969,"endTime":728.729,"body":"it in a way where people thought"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":725.969,"endTime":728.729,"body":"like, Oh, my God, that guy must"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":728.729,"endTime":733.259,"body":"be conceded to say that, but but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":728.729,"endTime":733.259,"body":"it wasn't. Or he was very sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":733.259,"endTime":737.369,"body":"of, you know, would want to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":733.259,"endTime":737.369,"body":"correct you pretty strongly"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":737.369,"endTime":741.659,"body":"about the use of that word. And,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":737.369,"endTime":741.659,"body":"and so can you explain, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":741.659,"endTime":746.129,"body":"what because I, because I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":741.659,"endTime":746.129,"body":"one of the things that like, how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":746.129,"endTime":750.059,"body":"I learned about Ron mowing was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":746.129,"endTime":750.059,"body":"his sort of history of PDSA, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":750.089,"endTime":753.479,"body":"I think that example of him"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":750.089,"endTime":753.479,"body":"asking you to change for to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":753.479,"endTime":756.929,"body":"have, could you sort of explain"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":753.479,"endTime":756.929,"body":"that to people? Or why that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":756.929,"endTime":760.199,"body":"would be so important to him in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":756.929,"endTime":760.199,"body":"the way he thought? Well,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":761.13,"endTime":765.51,"body":"Ron, might have been"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":761.13,"endTime":765.51,"body":"naturally this way before he"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":765.51,"endTime":771.99,"body":"started interacting with Dr."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":765.51,"endTime":771.99,"body":"Deming, but he was a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":771.99,"endTime":776.37,"body":"statistician, and my experience"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":771.99,"endTime":776.37,"body":"with statisticians is they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":776.37,"endTime":781.68,"body":"respect precision. In the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":776.37,"endTime":781.68,"body":"numbers, they love mathematics,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":781.98,"endTime":788.85,"body":"because it's certain there's not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":781.98,"endTime":788.85,"body":"a lot of misinterpretation, if"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":788.85,"endTime":794.82,"body":"you understand the mathematics."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":788.85,"endTime":794.82,"body":"And I've attributed the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":794.82,"endTime":799.68,"body":"precision of words, that Deming"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":794.82,"endTime":799.68,"body":"was very careful in his"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":799.68,"endTime":805.38,"body":"choosing, of the word continual"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":799.68,"endTime":805.38,"body":"with respect to continual"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":805.38,"endTime":811.11,"body":"improvement. 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I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1170.12,"endTime":1173.51,"body":"don't know what I was doing in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1170.12,"endTime":1173.51,"body":"1980. And I certainly wasn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1173.51,"endTime":1179.45,"body":"watching the NBC documentary."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1173.51,"endTime":1179.45,"body":"But but, you know, you read out"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1179.45,"endTime":1182.24,"body":"of the crisis, you add new"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1179.45,"endTime":1182.24,"body":"economics and New Economics,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1182.24,"endTime":1185.06,"body":"right is where he sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1182.24,"endTime":1185.06,"body":"codified his profound knowledge."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1185.06,"endTime":1190.88,"body":"Right. And yeah, and you told me"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1185.06,"endTime":1190.88,"body":"a story, like we can break down"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1190.88,"endTime":1192.98,"body":"this sort of profound knowledge,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1190.88,"endTime":1192.98,"body":"but most people who've listened"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1192.98,"endTime":1197.0,"body":"to podcasts or have done that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1192.98,"endTime":1197.0,"body":"before many times, but you had a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1197.0,"endTime":1201.05,"body":"great story about your first job"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1197.0,"endTime":1201.05,"body":"right and then and how like your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1201.05,"endTime":1203.96,"body":"manager couldn't understand"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1201.05,"endTime":1203.96,"body":"whether you were doing a great"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1203.96,"endTime":1207.2,"body":"job or a horrible job, or you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1203.96,"endTime":1207.2,"body":"want to tell them, it's pretty"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1207.2,"endTime":1211.58,"body":"fast, it works its way into the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1207.2,"endTime":1211.58,"body":"sort of the elements of profound"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1211.58,"endTime":1212.57,"body":"knowledge, in my opinion."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1213.44,"endTime":1216.74,"body":"Well, yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1213.44,"endTime":1216.74,"body":"what I related to you before,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1216.74,"endTime":1220.73,"body":"there were lots of very early"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1216.74,"endTime":1220.73,"body":"lessons that I had that came"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1220.73,"endTime":1227.66,"body":"from the Bell system perspective"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1220.73,"endTime":1227.66,"body":"of quality. 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And he brought out this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1288.68,"endTime":1292.97,"body":"trouble ticket, brought out this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1288.68,"endTime":1292.97,"body":"order, had me look at it, sure"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1292.97,"endTime":1297.38,"body":"enough, my initials were on the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1292.97,"endTime":1297.38,"body":"order. And I went to the place"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1297.38,"endTime":1300.38,"body":"on the distribution frame, and I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1297.38,"endTime":1300.38,"body":"looked, and I saw Boy, this was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1300.38,"endTime":1305.48,"body":"not good work. 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What he showed"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1352.37,"endTime":1357.29,"body":"me was a control chart. I didn't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1352.37,"endTime":1357.29,"body":"know what it was called at the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1357.29,"endTime":1360.92,"body":"time. But what he showed me was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1357.29,"endTime":1360.92,"body":"a control chart. And he showed"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1360.92,"endTime":1370.55,"body":"me what the volume of work was."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1360.92,"endTime":1370.55,"body":"For me, what my productivity was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1370.58,"endTime":1376.67,"body":"day by day by day. And he said,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1370.58,"endTime":1376.67,"body":"you see here, he said, This is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1376.67,"endTime":1381.92,"body":"your productivity on the days"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1376.67,"endTime":1381.92,"body":"that these errors occurred. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1381.92,"endTime":1388.19,"body":"he said, Now, your work is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1381.92,"endTime":1388.19,"body":"pretty good. But he said, It"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1388.19,"endTime":1396.86,"body":"looks like you did 80% of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1388.19,"endTime":1396.86,"body":"work on these days. And you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1396.86,"endTime":1399.74,"body":"might be good. But you're not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1396.86,"endTime":1399.74,"body":"that good. There were four other"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1399.74,"endTime":1406.34,"body":"people working with you. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1399.74,"endTime":1406.34,"body":"it's just not rational to think"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1406.34,"endTime":1410.78,"body":"that you did 80% of the work and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1406.34,"endTime":1410.78,"body":"not for other people to 20% of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1410.78,"endTime":1414.62,"body":"the work. And he said today when"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1410.78,"endTime":1414.62,"body":"I came out, I noticed something."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1415.13,"endTime":1419.45,"body":"Your co workers tool pouches"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1415.13,"endTime":1419.45,"body":"were hanging on the end of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1419.45,"endTime":1423.29,"body":"distribution frame while they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1419.45,"endTime":1423.29,"body":"were out to lunch. 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And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1465.59,"endTime":1473.36,"body":"so he said don't worry about it."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1465.59,"endTime":1473.36,"body":"He said I think I will just let"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1473.36,"endTime":1477.05,"body":"people know that. I have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1473.36,"endTime":1477.05,"body":"discovered an interesting"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1477.05,"endTime":1481.55,"body":"problem. And he said we'll see"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1477.05,"endTime":1481.55,"body":"what happens. So he said keep"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1481.55,"endTime":1487.58,"body":"doing what you're doing and I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1481.55,"endTime":1487.58,"body":"did. I want to fast forward to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1487.67,"endTime":1493.58,"body":"about 2005 or 2006. 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It"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1553.04,"endTime":1557.42,"body":"is, like, like, you know, to be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1557.42,"endTime":1561.71,"body":"able to sort of, you know, sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1557.42,"endTime":1561.71,"body":"of unpeel or look for layers of,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1562.19,"endTime":1565.7,"body":"you know, not just accept, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1562.19,"endTime":1565.7,"body":"a sort of a first order. Like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1565.7,"endTime":1568.49,"body":"okay, you know, Dennis is making"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1565.7,"endTime":1568.49,"body":"the first round error as well,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1568.49,"endTime":1571.88,"body":"let's take a look at it. 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It should be theory"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1633.62,"endTime":1637.91,"body":"knowledge, which is how do we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1637.91,"endTime":1642.77,"body":"know how do we know what we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1637.91,"endTime":1642.77,"body":"think we know? Right, which that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1642.8,"endTime":1647.63,"body":"that story is a classic story of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1642.8,"endTime":1647.63,"body":"like, we think we know, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1647.63,"endTime":1650.87,"body":"dentist is creating the most"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1647.63,"endTime":1650.87,"body":"amount of errors. But how do we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1650.87,"endTime":1655.13,"body":"know that? And then the what I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1650.87,"endTime":1655.13,"body":"think theory variation, which"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1655.13,"endTime":1660.86,"body":"comes second in the order is,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1655.13,"endTime":1660.86,"body":"how do we understand what we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1660.86,"endTime":1665.15,"body":"know. And that was using"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1660.86,"endTime":1665.15,"body":"analytical statistics. You know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1665.15,"endTime":1669.65,"body":"and you know, and I think that,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1665.15,"endTime":1669.65,"body":"to me, that's a great story. You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1669.65,"endTime":1672.44,"body":"know, and then, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1669.65,"endTime":1672.44,"body":"mean, maybe at that point,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1672.44,"endTime":1675.71,"body":"actually, you know, there was a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1672.44,"endTime":1675.71,"body":"theory of psychology, right,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1675.71,"endTime":1680.42,"body":"which is the human nature of how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1675.71,"endTime":1680.42,"body":"to deal with you and realize,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1680.42,"endTime":1683.12,"body":"you know, like, we could get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1680.42,"endTime":1683.12,"body":"into sort of intrinsic or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1683.45,"endTime":1688.16,"body":"biases, or like to be able to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1683.45,"endTime":1688.16,"body":"uncouple, the classic use, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1688.16,"endTime":1692.81,"body":"said early the prevailing system"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1688.16,"endTime":1692.81,"body":"of management. Fortunately, that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1692.81,"endTime":1695.81,"body":"manager wasn't sort of pinned"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1692.81,"endTime":1695.81,"body":"into the prevailing system"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1695.81,"endTime":1701.06,"body":"management, which might have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1695.81,"endTime":1701.06,"body":"fired you had the most amount of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1701.06,"endTime":1704.3,"body":"errors that day, right. There"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1701.06,"endTime":1704.3,"body":"was. And then, you know, again,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1704.3,"endTime":1708.68,"body":"you can also think that he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1704.3,"endTime":1708.68,"body":"sort of a systems thinker, too."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1708.68,"endTime":1712.28,"body":"And that, you know, he really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1708.68,"endTime":1712.28,"body":"had to step back and say, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1712.28,"endTime":1715.7,"body":"know, let me think about all the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1712.28,"endTime":1715.7,"body":"components of this thing. It's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1715.7,"endTime":1718.94,"body":"not feasible, you know, who"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1715.7,"endTime":1718.94,"body":"knows if he ever got to the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1718.94,"endTime":1719.9,"body":"bottom of it or not?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1720.409,"endTime":1723.799,"body":"Right? Well, I think he"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1720.409,"endTime":1723.799,"body":"must have because the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1723.799,"endTime":1725.869,"body":"manipulation of the numbers"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1723.799,"endTime":1725.869,"body":"stopped."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1725.99,"endTime":1729.05,"body":"Okay. Better,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1725.99,"endTime":1729.05,"body":"right."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1729.5,"endTime":1732.95,"body":"Yeah. And this is the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1729.5,"endTime":1732.95,"body":"thing that, you know, gave me an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1732.95,"endTime":1738.17,"body":"appreciation for looking at"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1732.95,"endTime":1738.17,"body":"other factors besides just the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1738.17,"endTime":1743.0,"body":"number that has had an error"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1738.17,"endTime":1743.0,"body":"today. Dennis had another error."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1743.06,"endTime":1747.95,"body":"Another day, Dennis had a third"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1743.06,"endTime":1747.95,"body":"error a third day. And so the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1747.95,"endTime":1752.99,"body":"common thing is not just Dennis"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1747.95,"endTime":1752.99,"body":"Dennis data's more error error,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1753.23,"endTime":1757.76,"body":"but it's what's the system"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1753.23,"endTime":1757.76,"body":"delivering over time? And it was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1757.79,"endTime":1762.35,"body":"that thinking about what's the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1757.79,"endTime":1762.35,"body":"system and what's the evidence"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1762.38,"endTime":1768.44,"body":"of the system, over a period of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1762.38,"endTime":1768.44,"body":"time. And Dr. Deming and others"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1769.34,"endTime":1773.51,"body":"that he learned from that I've"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1769.34,"endTime":1773.51,"body":"learned from him, emphasize that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1773.51,"endTime":1777.74,"body":"no number in isolation has any"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1773.51,"endTime":1777.74,"body":"meaning it's over the period of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1777.74,"endTime":1784.04,"body":"time that statistics really have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1777.74,"endTime":1784.04,"body":"a huge impact on our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1784.04,"endTime":1786.8,"body":"understanding of what's going on"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1784.04,"endTime":1786.8,"body":"in the system."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1787.13,"endTime":1791.48,"body":"Yeah, and I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1787.13,"endTime":1791.48,"body":"also like the brilliance of, of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1791.48,"endTime":1795.77,"body":"him, you know, coming up with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1791.48,"endTime":1795.77,"body":"those sort of four elements to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1795.77,"endTime":1800.96,"body":"analyze the complexity of a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1795.77,"endTime":1800.96,"body":"system. You had told me And I,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1801.02,"endTime":1805.88,"body":"it's probably just that I'm not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1801.02,"endTime":1805.88,"body":"a good listener, but you said"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1805.91,"endTime":1809.03,"body":"that, you know, because one of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1805.91,"endTime":1809.03,"body":"the things that I struggled, it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1809.03,"endTime":1812.99,"body":"was easy, easier to understand"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1809.03,"endTime":1812.99,"body":"where Deming got theory"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1812.99,"endTime":1818.69,"body":"knowledge, you know, mostly shoe"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1812.99,"endTime":1818.69,"body":"it mostly pragmatism, right sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1818.69,"endTime":1821.0,"body":"of the philosophy part, which"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1818.69,"endTime":1821.0,"body":"you would basically asked him"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1821.03,"endTime":1825.2,"body":"told him, Hey, you should read"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1821.03,"endTime":1825.2,"body":"this book by Clos, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1825.47,"endTime":1829.07,"body":"variation, like, of course,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1825.47,"endTime":1829.07,"body":"right. Like, all the bodies of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1829.07,"endTime":1832.67,"body":"work that Stuart had, right,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1829.07,"endTime":1832.67,"body":"which was, you know, probably"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1832.67,"endTime":1836.69,"body":"was the core of the brown book,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1832.67,"endTime":1836.69,"body":"as you said, and system"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1836.69,"endTime":1839.0,"body":"thinking, I did a fair amount of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1836.69,"endTime":1839.0,"body":"research on what he did during"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1839.0,"endTime":1841.94,"body":"World War Two and who he had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1839.0,"endTime":1841.94,"body":"worked with, but psychology was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1841.94,"endTime":1845.84,"body":"always a tough one. Because one,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1841.94,"endTime":1845.84,"body":"he was a humanist, like, we knew"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1845.84,"endTime":1848.81,"body":"that about him and who he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1845.84,"endTime":1848.81,"body":"and how we thought about people."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1849.05,"endTime":1853.73,"body":"But you had suggested that he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1849.05,"endTime":1853.73,"body":"had familiarity, like he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1853.73,"endTime":1858.02,"body":"interned at Hawthorn. That's a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1853.73,"endTime":1858.02,"body":"fact. And that, that, like, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1858.02,"endTime":1860.99,"body":"knew there were a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1858.02,"endTime":1860.99,"body":"interesting studies going on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1860.99,"endTime":1864.77,"body":"about work habits. And you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1860.99,"endTime":1864.77,"body":"I always said that Hawthorn was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1864.77,"endTime":1867.47,"body":"sort of the best, the the sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1864.77,"endTime":1867.47,"body":"of the Dickens, it was the best"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1867.47,"endTime":1870.47,"body":"of times, it was the worst of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1867.47,"endTime":1870.47,"body":"times, it was, it was a place"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1870.47,"endTime":1874.22,"body":"that, like, outside of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1870.47,"endTime":1874.22,"body":"building, it was this incredible"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1874.22,"endTime":1878.66,"body":"place for people and culture,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1874.22,"endTime":1878.66,"body":"you know, to sort of get loans,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1878.66,"endTime":1880.49,"body":"you know, like, and I've written"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1878.66,"endTime":1880.49,"body":"about this in the book, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1880.52,"endTime":1884.57,"body":"inside it was a sweatshop, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1880.52,"endTime":1884.57,"body":"know, inside the factory. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1884.69,"endTime":1889.07,"body":"so, can you tell me again, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1884.69,"endTime":1889.07,"body":"story that your theory was that,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1889.1,"endTime":1892.28,"body":"you know, the Deming was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1889.1,"endTime":1892.28,"body":"probably directly related to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1892.28,"endTime":1894.17,"body":"some of those that work?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1895.4,"endTime":1899.75,"body":"I'm not sure that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1895.4,"endTime":1899.75,"body":"Deming was doing any of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1899.75,"endTime":1900.89,"body":"research,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1900.92,"endTime":1901.94,"body":"right, no, good."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1902.96,"endTime":1909.32,"body":"But if he truly went"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1902.96,"endTime":1909.32,"body":"there, and refer to it in his"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1909.32,"endTime":1913.16,"body":"books about keeping away from"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1909.32,"endTime":1913.16,"body":"the stairs and quitting time,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1913.34,"endTime":1920.15,"body":"yeah. And my theory is that that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1913.34,"endTime":1920.15,"body":"could have informed his thinking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1920.15,"endTime":1925.55,"body":"about the psychology of people."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1920.15,"endTime":1925.55,"body":"He was there. As he was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1925.55,"endTime":1933.02,"body":"fulfilling his role as Shewhart"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1925.55,"endTime":1933.02,"body":"was coaching him in his PhD. I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1933.02,"endTime":1938.15,"body":"think he had to have observed"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1933.02,"endTime":1938.15,"body":"some of these aspects of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1938.15,"endTime":1945.29,"body":"Hawthorne experiments. Just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1938.15,"endTime":1945.29,"body":"recently had a chance to discuss"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1945.29,"endTime":1950.42,"body":"with one of Ron Molins"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1945.29,"endTime":1950.42,"body":"colleagues at API, Cliff Norman,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1950.45,"endTime":1955.22,"body":"who wrote that CO wrote that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1950.45,"endTime":1955.22,"body":"PDSA paper, and I was telling"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1955.22,"endTime":1961.22,"body":"him about this. And he, he, he"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1955.22,"endTime":1961.22,"body":"suggested that I should read"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1961.22,"endTime":1965.0,"body":"this book that takes a really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1961.22,"endTime":1965.0,"body":"critical look at the Hawthorne"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1965.0,"endTime":1972.41,"body":"experiments, and Elton Mayo in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1965.0,"endTime":1972.41,"body":"particular. And so as I have dug"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1972.41,"endTime":1977.24,"body":"into the records from a Bell"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1972.41,"endTime":1977.24,"body":"Laboratories of the Hawthorne"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1977.24,"endTime":1982.58,"body":"experiments, as I've read, Fritz"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1977.24,"endTime":1982.58,"body":"ruthless burgers book on the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1982.58,"endTime":1987.47,"body":"Hawthorne experiments, I read"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1982.58,"endTime":1987.47,"body":"this other one. And I'm not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1987.47,"endTime":1991.49,"body":"quite through with it yet. But"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1987.47,"endTime":1991.49,"body":"they're picking apart all of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1991.49,"endTime":1997.46,"body":"details that were being tested."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1991.49,"endTime":1997.46,"body":"That informed Elton Mayo, and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1997.49,"endTime":2001.45,"body":"some people want to, shall we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1997.49,"endTime":2001.45,"body":"say, argue with what Mayo"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2001.45,"endTime":2007.0,"body":"believed. But the thing that is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2001.45,"endTime":2007.0,"body":"most remarkable to me as looking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2007.0,"endTime":2011.08,"body":"at all of those records and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2007.0,"endTime":2011.08,"body":"references, is that the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2011.08,"endTime":2015.55,"body":"experiments were looking for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2011.08,"endTime":2015.55,"body":"these manipulative things that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2015.55,"endTime":2018.85,"body":"they could change. And what they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2015.55,"endTime":2018.85,"body":"kept finding out was the big"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2018.85,"endTime":2024.25,"body":"variable was the people. The"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2018.85,"endTime":2024.25,"body":"people were not as predictable"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2024.25,"endTime":2029.08,"body":"as they wanted them to be as"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2024.25,"endTime":2029.08,"body":"cogs in a machine. This was not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2029.08,"endTime":2032.98,"body":"long after Frederick Taylor"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2029.08,"endTime":2032.98,"body":"died, and, you know, a wild"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2032.98,"endTime":2036.91,"body":"variety of industrial engineers"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2032.98,"endTime":2036.91,"body":"were marching down the path of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2037.96,"endTime":2043.99,"body":"mechanistic organizations. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2037.96,"endTime":2043.99,"body":"what was being discovered at"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2043.99,"endTime":2049.18,"body":"Hawthorne works is, people were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2043.99,"endTime":2049.18,"body":"not cogs in the machine. So I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2049.18,"endTime":2052.24,"body":"think maybe Deming picked up"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2049.18,"endTime":2052.24,"body":"some of his understanding of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2052.24,"endTime":2057.22,"body":"psychology from whatever he"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2052.24,"endTime":2057.22,"body":"observed there and elsewhere,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2057.64,"endTime":2063.97,"body":"because he was an observer of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2057.64,"endTime":2063.97,"body":"life, even in hospitals in later"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2063.97,"endTime":2069.28,"body":"life. He he was an observer when"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2063.97,"endTime":2069.28,"body":"he was in Japan. He tried to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2069.28,"endTime":2072.79,"body":"respect the people in the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2069.28,"endTime":2072.79,"body":"culture there made many"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2072.79,"endTime":2078.4,"body":"observations about the culture"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2072.79,"endTime":2078.4,"body":"of the people he was working"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2078.4,"endTime":2081.16,"body":"with. So it's just my theory."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2081.22,"endTime":2083.98,"body":"No, I love it, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2081.22,"endTime":2083.98,"body":"think because there's there's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2083.98,"endTime":2088.54,"body":"clearly a Nexus you know, I had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2083.98,"endTime":2088.54,"body":"suggested I did an interview"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2088.54,"endTime":2092.29,"body":"with Doris queen and I think I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2088.54,"endTime":2092.29,"body":"told you about like, most people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2092.29,"endTime":2095.65,"body":"don't know her, but she spent"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2092.29,"endTime":2095.65,"body":"like the last year of Demings"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2095.65,"endTime":2100.15,"body":"life traveling with him. She was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2095.65,"endTime":2100.15,"body":"a nurse that Deming had met At"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2100.15,"endTime":2104.26,"body":"one of his seminars and she just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2100.15,"endTime":2104.26,"body":"that she really clicked on the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2104.26,"endTime":2107.86,"body":"way she thought about like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2104.26,"endTime":2107.86,"body":"nursing and hospital and and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2107.86,"endTime":2111.58,"body":"suggested to her that sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2107.86,"endTime":2111.58,"body":"that could it be that that Japan"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2111.58,"endTime":2117.49,"body":"changed Deming as much as Deming"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2111.58,"endTime":2117.49,"body":"changed Japan? She said, huh,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2117.76,"endTime":2120.43,"body":"yeah, I think you're onto"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2117.76,"endTime":2120.43,"body":"something. Not that I'm like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2120.58,"endTime":2123.55,"body":"but But you're right. You know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2120.58,"endTime":2123.55,"body":"like, if you read like, sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2123.58,"endTime":2127.33,"body":"all the notes from his secretary"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2123.58,"endTime":2127.33,"body":"about, like, he would, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2127.33,"endTime":2131.08,"body":"he just loved he would buy food"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2127.33,"endTime":2131.08,"body":"from the PX, he would literally"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2131.08,"endTime":2135.22,"body":"love Saki, he loved that he'd"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2131.08,"endTime":2135.22,"body":"sneak out to go to kabuki"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2135.22,"endTime":2139.18,"body":"theater. And he just fell in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2135.22,"endTime":2139.18,"body":"love with that culture, and to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2139.18,"endTime":2144.31,"body":"understand the nature of how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2139.18,"endTime":2144.31,"body":"they thought clearly reflected"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2144.58,"endTime":2148.72,"body":"in his further work. But I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2144.58,"endTime":2148.72,"body":"you're right, I think he had a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2148.72,"endTime":2153.25,"body":"lot of that instinct, long"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2148.72,"endTime":2153.25,"body":"before he went to Japan. And you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2153.25,"endTime":2157.06,"body":"know, I can't imagine that with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2153.25,"endTime":2157.06,"body":"all that. The way he was such an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2157.06,"endTime":2160.72,"body":"inquisitive person and just sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2157.06,"endTime":2160.72,"body":"of wanted to turn every stone"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2161.86,"endTime":2164.77,"body":"over the find out, like, I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2161.86,"endTime":2164.77,"body":"if you look, I haven't been, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2164.77,"endTime":2168.55,"body":"like the Library of Congress"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2164.77,"endTime":2168.55,"body":"rightly has, like, supposedly,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2168.55,"endTime":2171.91,"body":"there's a whole wall of letters"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2168.55,"endTime":2171.91,"body":"that he's written to people in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2171.91,"endTime":2175.24,"body":"most obscure. Like, he'd read"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2171.91,"endTime":2175.24,"body":"something about somebody, he'd"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2175.24,"endTime":2178.15,"body":"write them a letter saying, Hey,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2175.24,"endTime":2178.15,"body":"I'd love to know more about this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2178.15,"endTime":2182.2,"body":"or that. To your point, I can't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2178.15,"endTime":2182.2,"body":"imagine if he was there. He"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2182.2,"endTime":2186.58,"body":"wasn't asking questions or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2182.2,"endTime":2186.58,"body":"observing. It had to have an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2186.58,"endTime":2189.46,"body":"imprint. On the way he saw it."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2190.39,"endTime":2199.84,"body":"Yeah. In the he was a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2190.39,"endTime":2199.84,"body":"note taker. He, he took notes of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2199.93,"endTime":2207.31,"body":"conversations he had with people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2199.93,"endTime":2207.31,"body":"and he sometimes was generous"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2207.31,"endTime":2214.54,"body":"with his credits for ideas."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2207.31,"endTime":2214.54,"body":"Somebody that is working on the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2214.54,"endTime":2220.33,"body":"statistics modules for the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2214.54,"endTime":2220.33,"body":"Deming next program, has been"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2220.33,"endTime":2225.79,"body":"credited by Dr. Deming with this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2220.33,"endTime":2225.79,"body":"idea. 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And he said, No, that's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2261.76,"endTime":2268.6,"body":"me. That's me. 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And, like, we're just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2309.01,"endTime":2312.91,"body":"always constantly battling this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2312.91,"endTime":2316.72,"body":"sort of this prevailing system"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2312.91,"endTime":2316.72,"body":"of management that, that it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2316.72,"endTime":2323.35,"body":"just, it's just this calcium"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2316.72,"endTime":2323.35,"body":"buildup that like, was just, it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2323.35,"endTime":2325.27,"body":"just never go away. Right."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2325.78,"endTime":2328.21,"body":"And like the way you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2325.78,"endTime":2328.21,"body":"phrase that calcium buildup,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2328.33,"endTime":2331.18,"body":"yeah, yeah, because"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2328.33,"endTime":2331.18,"body":"it just sort of builds right."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2331.3,"endTime":2333.49,"body":"But so I guess I was gonna ask"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2331.3,"endTime":2333.49,"body":"you, so like, out of all the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2333.49,"endTime":2336.76,"body":"things, you know, this is sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2333.49,"endTime":2336.76,"body":"of an unfair question, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2337.12,"endTime":2340.57,"body":"you're a good bloke, and you can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2337.12,"endTime":2340.57,"body":"get it. 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If,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2622.03,"endTime":2627.07,"body":"but I guess the my rant is that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2622.03,"endTime":2627.07,"body":"they're all the same problem,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2627.58,"endTime":2631.93,"body":"right? It's the same problem,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2627.58,"endTime":2631.93,"body":"whether you go back to the 20s,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2631.93,"endTime":2639.97,"body":"the 30s, to 50s, the 80s 90s,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2631.93,"endTime":2639.97,"body":"and now, you know, 2023. 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Like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2650.26,"endTime":2653.98,"body":"you know, so how do we know is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2650.26,"endTime":2653.98,"body":"we got to question how do we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2653.98,"endTime":2655.45,"body":"understand we need to look at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2653.98,"endTime":2655.45,"body":"data."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2656.53,"endTime":2659.35,"body":"Well, in this is the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2656.53,"endTime":2659.35,"body":"thing that a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2659.35,"endTime":2664.93,"body":"misunderstand about, not only"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2659.35,"endTime":2664.93,"body":"Toyota and lean, but about a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2664.93,"endTime":2671.05,"body":"Demings role in Japan, and their"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2664.93,"endTime":2671.05,"body":"turnaround. They did the work of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2671.05,"endTime":2675.55,"body":"people in Japan, in these"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2671.05,"endTime":2675.55,"body":"Japanese companies in the whole"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2675.55,"endTime":2680.77,"body":"country did the work. They got"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2675.55,"endTime":2680.77,"body":"the results. Deming helped them"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2680.77,"endTime":2686.83,"body":"see things differently. But they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2680.77,"endTime":2686.83,"body":"were on a search that began long"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2686.83,"endTime":2691.12,"body":"before Deming got there. Before"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2686.83,"endTime":2691.12,"body":"the war. They had their methods"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2691.12,"endTime":2694.72,"body":"they had learned a lot from"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2691.12,"endTime":2694.72,"body":"Frederick Taylor. But after the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2694.72,"endTime":2699.97,"body":"destruction of the war, they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2694.72,"endTime":2699.97,"body":"were looking for solutions from"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2701.29,"endTime":2706.18,"body":"somebody who they looked up to,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2701.29,"endTime":2706.18,"body":"they looked up to Deming, they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2706.18,"endTime":2710.89,"body":"looked up also to Duran at a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2706.18,"endTime":2710.89,"body":"certain stage. They were very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2710.89,"endTime":2717.76,"body":"respectful of Homer Sarasota."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2710.89,"endTime":2717.76,"body":"Wanted Walter Shewhart couldn't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2717.76,"endTime":2722.35,"body":"get him right, that Deming"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2717.76,"endTime":2722.35,"body":"instead, but they had a long"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2722.35,"endTime":2727.36,"body":"journey with lots of things that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2722.35,"endTime":2727.36,"body":"they had explored. And they just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2727.36,"endTime":2730.78,"body":"kept looking for how do we keep"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2727.36,"endTime":2730.78,"body":"improving? They didn't, even"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2730.78,"endTime":2735.91,"body":"though they said they wanted to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2730.78,"endTime":2735.91,"body":"go after perfection. They"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2735.94,"endTime":2740.32,"body":"continue to improve to this day,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2735.94,"endTime":2740.32,"body":"and it's not just Toyota. It's a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2740.32,"endTime":2741.31,"body":"lot of Japanese."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2741.79,"endTime":2743.35,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2741.79,"endTime":2743.35,"body":"That's right. There was I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2743.35,"endTime":2746.59,"body":"that's why it's been referred to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2743.35,"endTime":2746.59,"body":"as the miracle Japan was not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2746.59,"endTime":2749.11,"body":"just, you know, it's an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2746.59,"endTime":2749.11,"body":"interesting, you know, this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2749.26,"endTime":2754.24,"body":"could be another podcast but the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2749.26,"endTime":2754.24,"body":"Saracen Duran in Deming, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2754.24,"endTime":2757.12,"body":"know, they're just like, the,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2754.24,"endTime":2757.12,"body":"again, another classification of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2757.12,"endTime":2760.75,"body":"humans is to sort of, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2757.12,"endTime":2760.75,"body":"compare and who's better, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2760.75,"endTime":2763.78,"body":"it's, it's like, you know, sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2760.75,"endTime":2763.78,"body":"of NFL football, right, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2764.11,"endTime":2767.89,"body":"who's better and there's just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2764.11,"endTime":2767.89,"body":"this like, terrible noise out"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2767.89,"endTime":2772.48,"body":"there from people about Sarah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2767.89,"endTime":2772.48,"body":"you know, it wasn't Deming, it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2772.48,"endTime":2777.37,"body":"was saris, and it wasn't Deming,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2772.48,"endTime":2777.37,"body":"it was Duran. And the point I've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2777.37,"endTime":2780.58,"body":"made to all of these, I tried to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2777.37,"endTime":2780.58,"body":"stay away from the argument that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2780.61,"endTime":2786.67,"body":"hey, it's everybody. But the one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2780.61,"endTime":2786.67,"body":"prevailing fact is that Duran"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2786.94,"endTime":2795.1,"body":"and his followers tend to are a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2786.94,"endTime":2795.1,"body":"lot tend to downplay Demi's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2795.1,"endTime":2802.27,"body":"contribution, Saracen and his"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2795.1,"endTime":2802.27,"body":"followers, in fact, downplay"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2802.3,"endTime":2806.08,"body":"Deming. I mean, I've letters"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2802.3,"endTime":2806.08,"body":"that he's written, daring, never"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2806.83,"endTime":2810.64,"body":"downplayed anybody else's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2806.83,"endTime":2810.64,"body":"contribution. He never, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2810.64,"endTime":2813.79,"body":"know, he always gave credit"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2810.64,"endTime":2813.79,"body":"across the board. So like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2813.82,"endTime":2817.54,"body":"that's my only one prevailing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2813.82,"endTime":2817.54,"body":"fact is this man gave credit to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2817.54,"endTime":2820.84,"body":"everybody. And there's, there's,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2817.54,"endTime":2820.84,"body":"you know, depending on where you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2820.84,"endTime":2823.42,"body":"get the quote from, there's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2820.84,"endTime":2823.42,"body":"things about Taran saying that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2823.63,"endTime":2827.26,"body":"Deming didn't really understand"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2823.63,"endTime":2827.26,"body":"management, and then sericin"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2827.29,"endTime":2829.99,"body":"says that, you know, well, they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2827.29,"endTime":2829.99,"body":"didn't even want Deming they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2829.99,"endTime":2833.8,"body":"wanted sure, like, it's just all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2829.99,"endTime":2833.8,"body":"this nonsense. And like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2833.8,"endTime":2837.61,"body":"said, find me one place in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2833.8,"endTime":2837.61,"body":"Demmings work, you know, where"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2837.61,"endTime":2841.48,"body":"he uses, you know, continuous or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2837.61,"endTime":2841.48,"body":"whatever, right. And like, find"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2841.48,"endTime":2845.02,"body":"me one place where Deming said"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2841.48,"endTime":2845.02,"body":"something disparaging or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2845.02,"endTime":2848.77,"body":"downplayed anybody else's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2845.02,"endTime":2848.77,"body":"contribution. I dare you to find"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2848.77,"endTime":2849.01,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2849.76,"endTime":2852.52,"body":"Yeah, I haven't found"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2849.76,"endTime":2852.52,"body":"it yet, either. And, in fact,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2852.52,"endTime":2858.76,"body":"I've found references to those"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2852.52,"endTime":2858.76,"body":"individuals who have criticized"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2858.76,"endTime":2861.52,"body":"him. So So,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2862.27,"endTime":2864.64,"body":"yeah, I mean, that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2862.27,"endTime":2864.64,"body":"just tells you a lot about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2864.64,"endTime":2867.64,"body":"contribution. So where do people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2864.64,"endTime":2867.64,"body":"find you? I know you're out"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2867.64,"endTime":2870.94,"body":"there. I mean, clearly, anybody"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2867.64,"endTime":2870.94,"body":"who listens to this would, could"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2870.94,"endTime":2874.33,"body":"benefit from your experience."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2870.94,"endTime":2874.33,"body":"And like, hopefully, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2874.33,"endTime":2877.81,"body":"people, you know, that might"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2874.33,"endTime":2877.81,"body":"listen to this think, hey, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2877.81,"endTime":2880.54,"body":"know, somebody that really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2877.81,"endTime":2880.54,"body":"understands Deming, and like all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2880.54,"endTime":2884.89,"body":"your experience in management"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2880.54,"endTime":2884.89,"body":"leadership? What how it I'll put"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2884.89,"endTime":2887.95,"body":"it in the show notes too, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2884.89,"endTime":2887.95,"body":"like, how would people find you?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2888.64,"endTime":2892.18,"body":"Well, they can find me"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2888.64,"endTime":2892.18,"body":"at my company website, it's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2892.18,"endTime":2901.27,"body":"Sergent results.com. And the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2892.18,"endTime":2901.27,"body":"Deming Institute is another"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2901.27,"endTime":2907.78,"body":"place where they can find me,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2901.27,"endTime":2907.78,"body":"I'm very pleased to help them"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2909.34,"endTime":2913.78,"body":"with some of their programs,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2909.34,"endTime":2913.78,"body":"I've been honored to be selected"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2913.78,"endTime":2918.94,"body":"to present some research papers"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2913.78,"endTime":2918.94,"body":"to the Deming Institute research"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2918.94,"endTime":2926.65,"body":"seminars. And so I would just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2918.94,"endTime":2926.65,"body":"say that's probably the best way"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2926.65,"endTime":2930.28,"body":"to reach me is through the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2926.65,"endTime":2930.28,"body":"surgeon results.com. And of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2930.28,"endTime":2933.97,"body":"course, my phone number, which"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2930.28,"endTime":2933.97,"body":"you have. You're welcome to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2933.97,"endTime":2935.05,"body":"share that with anybody."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2935.32,"endTime":2937.45,"body":"I know, when people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2935.32,"endTime":2937.45,"body":"reach out to me and want direct"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2937.45,"endTime":2940.03,"body":"or any sort of email"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2937.45,"endTime":2940.03,"body":"introduction, I would be glad to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2940.03,"endTime":2944.47,"body":"do that. I I thoroughly, I'm so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2940.03,"endTime":2944.47,"body":"glad that you reached out to me."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2945.01,"endTime":2948.76,"body":"I've just enjoyed this as our"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2945.01,"endTime":2948.76,"body":"second conversation together. We"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2948.76,"endTime":2953.95,"body":"got the second one. I'm like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2948.76,"endTime":2953.95,"body":"I'm honored. And I really, just,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2954.52,"endTime":2957.61,"body":"I love the way you think. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2954.52,"endTime":2957.61,"body":"it's just been a blast having a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2957.61,"endTime":2959.11,"body":"conversation with you. So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2959.83,"endTime":2963.82,"body":"well. When you have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2959.83,"endTime":2963.82,"body":"time, I would like to share some"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2963.82,"endTime":2966.91,"body":"thoughts with you that I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2963.82,"endTime":2966.91,"body":"discovered a long time ago about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2968.14,"endTime":2971.71,"body":"what I thought of as the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2968.14,"endTime":2971.71,"body":"equivalent of the DevOps world"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2971.71,"endTime":2972.55,"body":"way back when,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2972.73,"endTime":2976.57,"body":"okay, yeah. Let's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2972.73,"endTime":2976.57,"body":"let's let's put it on the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2976.57,"endTime":2979.33,"body":"calendar. But it's okay. I'll"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2976.57,"endTime":2979.33,"body":"give you something that yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2979.33,"endTime":2982.06,"body":"the week was like, let's keep"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2979.33,"endTime":2982.06,"body":"this as a continuous"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2982.06,"endTime":2984.64,"body":"conversation because there's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2982.06,"endTime":2984.64,"body":"just a lot we can both learn"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2984.64,"endTime":2985.6,"body":"from each other. So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2985.99,"endTime":2989.08,"body":"yeah, it's it's all"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2985.99,"endTime":2989.08,"body":"about learning. It is about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2989.08,"endTime":2989.44,"body":"learning."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2989.47,"endTime":2992.59,"body":"That is the number"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2989.47,"endTime":2992.59,"body":"one if there's one principle"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2992.77,"endTime":2997.33,"body":"between all this is constantly"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2992.77,"endTime":2997.33,"body":"be learning so Alright, Dennis,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2997.33,"endTime":2999.28,"body":"it was it was a blast. Thank you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2997.33,"endTime":2999.28,"body":"so much."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2999.61,"endTime":3001.98,"body":"Thank you very much I'm"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2999.61,"endTime":3001.98,"body":"honored okay"}]}