{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2.46,"endTime":5.52,"body":"Hey, it's John"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2.46,"endTime":5.52,"body":"Willis again. And it's another"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":5.7,"endTime":8.94,"body":"profound Deming podcast. And I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":5.7,"endTime":8.94,"body":"found another sort of Deming,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":8.94,"endTime":12.45,"body":"eight out there, you know, just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":8.94,"endTime":12.45,"body":"trying to find everybody that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":12.48,"endTime":15.21,"body":"just wants to talk about Deming."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":12.48,"endTime":15.21,"body":"So, Mike, you want to introduce"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":15.21,"endTime":19.89,"body":"yourself? Okay. Hello, my name"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":15.21,"endTime":19.89,"body":"is Mike Harris. I'm testing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":19.89,"endTime":23.28,"body":"professional, I work for Decker"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":19.89,"endTime":23.28,"body":"bolt in London."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":24.54,"endTime":27.36,"body":"I'm also vice chair"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":24.54,"endTime":27.36,"body":"of the British Computer Society"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":27.36,"endTime":30.66,"body":"specialist interest group in"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":27.36,"endTime":30.66,"body":"software testing, which we call"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":30.66,"endTime":33.09,"body":"sugest. It is much shorter and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":30.66,"endTime":33.09,"body":"simpler."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":34.56,"endTime":38.07,"body":"I've contributed a couple of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":34.56,"endTime":38.07,"body":"eBooks about testing."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":39.36,"endTime":41.7,"body":"First of all, testing stories, I"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":39.36,"endTime":41.7,"body":"mentioned Demick."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":42.99,"endTime":49.17,"body":"Had I could I test that, and I"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":42.99,"endTime":49.17,"body":"have a blog, which I've"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":49.2,"endTime":51.48,"body":"regularly write about them in as"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":49.2,"endTime":51.48,"body":"well."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":52.56,"endTime":55.77,"body":"So that, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":52.56,"endTime":55.77,"body":"I think only once I got called"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":55.77,"endTime":58.74,"body":"out for asking this question, so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":55.77,"endTime":58.74,"body":"I think I'm going to stick with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":58.74,"endTime":62.31,"body":"it until I get called out twice."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":58.74,"endTime":62.31,"body":"But I find him a lot of people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":62.31,"endTime":67.92,"body":"have a damning moment. You know."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":62.31,"endTime":67.92,"body":"And so and it was for me, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":67.92,"endTime":71.52,"body":"most people I asked, so like, so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":67.92,"endTime":71.52,"body":"what was your sort of damning?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":71.55,"endTime":74.49,"body":"Like what was sort of like the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":71.55,"endTime":74.49,"body":"moment like my moment, it was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":74.49,"endTime":78.33,"body":"like I had a moment. And in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":74.49,"endTime":78.33,"body":"fact, for me, there's always"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":78.33,"endTime":83.22,"body":"these moments like, wow, really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":78.33,"endTime":83.22,"body":"talking about a tell me your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":83.22,"endTime":85.53,"body":"sort of your background about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":83.22,"endTime":85.53,"body":"like, why you got interested in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":85.53,"endTime":89.55,"body":"Deming, why you passionate about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":85.53,"endTime":89.55,"body":"him, I was"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":89.7,"endTime":94.98,"body":"tested at a startup"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":89.7,"endTime":94.98,"body":"in London, we were moving to an"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":94.98,"endTime":98.91,"body":"agile transition with a couple"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":94.98,"endTime":98.91,"body":"of Scrum teams, no Kanban team."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":99.39,"endTime":102.93,"body":"So I was managing testers and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":99.39,"endTime":102.93,"body":"part of the management team for"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":102.93,"endTime":109.14,"body":"that. And just decided to find"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":102.93,"endTime":109.14,"body":"out a lot more about Lean agile,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":109.29,"endTime":112.17,"body":"actually, all the management"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":109.29,"endTime":112.17,"body":"data we studied, and we read, we"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":112.17,"endTime":116.43,"body":"had an Agile coach. And then he"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":112.17,"endTime":116.43,"body":"kept coming up in all the books"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":116.43,"endTime":120.9,"body":"I was reading, is this plugged"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":116.43,"endTime":120.9,"body":"me? Okay, so who is it? So I"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":120.9,"endTime":126.3,"body":"read more about him, and just"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":120.9,"endTime":126.3,"body":"found that his philosophy seems"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":126.3,"endTime":130.29,"body":"to underpin everything that we"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":126.3,"endTime":130.29,"body":"were trying to do. And what we"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":130.29,"endTime":134.67,"body":"did was successful as well. We"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":130.29,"endTime":134.67,"body":"got a successful exit from from"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":134.67,"endTime":140.25,"body":"that startup. So that made me"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":134.67,"endTime":140.25,"body":"think, well, this works. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":140.73,"endTime":144.12,"body":"that's really where I became,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":140.73,"endTime":144.12,"body":"that was my Deming moment."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":144.12,"endTime":146.91,"body":"That's how I became very sort of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":144.12,"endTime":146.91,"body":"very interested in deadening and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":147.27,"endTime":149.61,"body":"has continued to explore his"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":147.27,"endTime":149.61,"body":"work ever since."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":150.87,"endTime":153.33,"body":"Yeah, no, I, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":150.87,"endTime":153.33,"body":"know, I thought it was fun. I,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":153.36,"endTime":156.72,"body":"you know, you I guess you were"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":153.36,"endTime":156.72,"body":"talking about sort of, uh, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":156.72,"endTime":160.5,"body":"know, I've heard this. So I have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":156.72,"endTime":160.5,"body":"gotten to know Elizabeth"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":160.5,"endTime":164.67,"body":"Hendrickson, you know, she's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":160.5,"endTime":164.67,"body":"another sort of agile testing,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":164.67,"endTime":168.3,"body":"you know, and she was, in the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":164.67,"endTime":168.3,"body":"early pockets. They were some of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":168.3,"endTime":173.43,"body":"the early, Agile and Scrum"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":168.3,"endTime":173.43,"body":"advocates for you know, we're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":173.43,"endTime":177.12,"body":"basically also pointing out"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":173.43,"endTime":177.12,"body":"Demings work, and I started, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":177.12,"endTime":179.07,"body":"think it was your one of your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":177.12,"endTime":179.07,"body":"blogs, we talked about Chet"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":179.1,"endTime":180.51,"body":"Soglin and Scrum."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":180.959,"endTime":181.679,"body":"Yeah, that's right."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":183.27,"endTime":189.06,"body":"Do you go back to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":183.27,"endTime":189.06,"body":"some of that early stuff? The, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":189.06,"endTime":192.18,"body":"guess one thing I saw is you you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":189.06,"endTime":192.18,"body":"it looks like you run the red"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":192.18,"endTime":192.9,"body":"bead game."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":193.949,"endTime":198.179,"body":"Yes, this is about"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":193.949,"endTime":198.179,"body":"it. I've never actually run it,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":198.179,"endTime":200.609,"body":"it'd be an interesting thing to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":198.179,"endTime":200.609,"body":"do. But I've written about it a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":200.609,"endTime":201.479,"body":"few times. Yeah."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":202.05,"endTime":203.46,"body":"What are your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":202.05,"endTime":203.46,"body":"thoughts about it? So in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":203.46,"endTime":203.88,"body":"general,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":205.979,"endTime":209.609,"body":"I think it's, each"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":205.979,"endTime":209.609,"body":"time I write something about it,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":209.609,"endTime":213.959,"body":"I see something new. I think"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":209.609,"endTime":213.959,"body":"it's really interesting and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":213.959,"endTime":217.829,"body":"useful, because you can talk"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":213.959,"endTime":217.829,"body":"about a whole range of issues"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":217.829,"endTime":220.829,"body":"without it being somewhere that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":217.829,"endTime":220.829,"body":"you've worked, or your friend"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":220.829,"endTime":227.279,"body":"works. So it's very handy in"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":220.829,"endTime":227.279,"body":"that way. I think it brings out"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":227.279,"endTime":230.849,"body":"issues where people feel"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":227.279,"endTime":230.849,"body":"powerless at work, they're held"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":230.849,"endTime":237.179,"body":"responsible for things that they"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":230.849,"endTime":237.179,"body":"can't control. Just one of the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":237.179,"endTime":240.629,"body":"essence of it. But also, the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":237.179,"endTime":240.629,"body":"other essence of it is that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":240.839,"endTime":243.629,"body":"people feel that that because"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":240.839,"endTime":243.629,"body":"they're managed rather than"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":243.629,"endTime":247.499,"body":"lead. So there's all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":243.629,"endTime":247.499,"body":"issues you can deal with that."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":249.239,"endTime":252.449,"body":"The first thing, that second"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":249.239,"endTime":252.449,"body":"thing I think I wrote about it"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":252.449,"endTime":256.679,"body":"was actually, what should you do"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":252.449,"endTime":256.679,"body":"with the inspectors, or the test"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":256.679,"endTime":260.789,"body":"team in the red beads? Because"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":256.679,"endTime":260.789,"body":"they don't add any value?"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":262.199,"endTime":266.189,"body":"They're telling everybody well,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":262.199,"endTime":266.189,"body":"actually, you haven't done what"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":266.189,"endTime":269.459,"body":"they've met your target? Well,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":266.189,"endTime":269.459,"body":"they can't meet their target. So"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":269.459,"endTime":273.119,"body":"actually, what could you do with"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":269.459,"endTime":273.119,"body":"them, and they've got a lot of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":273.119,"endTime":276.119,"body":"skills. So there are useful"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":273.119,"endTime":276.119,"body":"things that they could do. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":276.119,"endTime":279.569,"body":"if you look at other parts of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":276.119,"endTime":279.569,"body":"Demings philosophy, he talks"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":279.569,"endTime":282.839,"body":"about how you need to be working"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":279.569,"endTime":282.839,"body":"with your suppliers to improve"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":282.839,"endTime":286.769,"body":"quality. So in fact, what the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":282.839,"endTime":286.769,"body":"big issues with the red beads is"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":286.769,"endTime":290.459,"body":"in fact, they're supplied a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":286.769,"endTime":290.459,"body":"mixture of red and white beads."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":291.089,"endTime":295.979,"body":"And if the inspectors were to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":291.089,"endTime":295.979,"body":"use their skills and work with"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":295.979,"endTime":299.039,"body":"the suppliers, then they could"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":295.979,"endTime":299.039,"body":"improve the quality of supply of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":299.039,"endTime":303.179,"body":"red beads and they'd be less"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":299.039,"endTime":303.179,"body":"white beads in there. And I was"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":303.179,"endTime":307.949,"body":"like, let's read the two more"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":303.179,"endTime":307.949,"body":"white beads in there. And that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":307.949,"endTime":311.579,"body":"would help people improve the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":307.949,"endTime":311.579,"body":"quality of their work. So"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":311.579,"endTime":314.729,"body":"there's that I think there's all"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":311.579,"endTime":314.729,"body":"sorts of things you can do with"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":314.729,"endTime":318.929,"body":"the records. I think, then we"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":314.729,"endTime":318.929,"body":"had quite a number of different"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":318.929,"endTime":320.849,"body":"lessons you could learn from it."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":322.17,"endTime":327.54,"body":"Yeah, no, I agree."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":322.17,"endTime":327.54,"body":"I mean, I, I've, you know, I've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":327.54,"endTime":330.87,"body":"been thinking a lot about, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":327.54,"endTime":330.87,"body":"I saw your article, and I really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":330.87,"endTime":333.48,"body":"liked it. And then I thought"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":330.87,"endTime":333.48,"body":"about, like, you know, I've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":333.48,"endTime":337.05,"body":"been, you know, really so So I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":333.48,"endTime":337.05,"body":"finished my book, right, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":337.08,"endTime":340.47,"body":"10 year journey, but now you're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":337.08,"endTime":340.47,"body":"really two years of serious, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":340.47,"endTime":343.71,"body":"know, it's called Demings."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":340.47,"endTime":343.71,"body":"Journey, profound knowledge,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":343.71,"endTime":347.58,"body":"where I really try to tell a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":343.71,"endTime":347.58,"body":"story of how he picks up"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":347.58,"endTime":351.51,"body":"profound knowledge. Right. And,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":347.58,"endTime":351.51,"body":"and, you know, is a big part of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":351.51,"endTime":357.48,"body":"it, but they're all in knowledge"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":351.51,"endTime":357.48,"body":"variation. Yeah. And systems."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":358.74,"endTime":362.55,"body":"The thing I thought about it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":358.74,"endTime":362.55,"body":"after your article, I was like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":362.58,"endTime":365.61,"body":"this is really cool, right? And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":362.58,"endTime":365.61,"body":"then I said, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":365.61,"endTime":369.63,"body":"immediately had this, like, what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":365.61,"endTime":369.63,"body":"if Devin came back today, Dickie"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":369.63,"endTime":374.22,"body":"be pretty upset, that like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":369.63,"endTime":374.22,"body":"guys, like, that was the game"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":374.22,"endTime":378.33,"body":"when I died in 93. Like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":374.22,"endTime":378.33,"body":"didn't like expand it at all."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":378.51,"endTime":381.3,"body":"And he does leave some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":378.51,"endTime":381.3,"body":"breadcrumbs, like you said,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":381.3,"endTime":384.69,"body":"where he says, you know, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":381.3,"endTime":384.69,"body":"know, possibly when you realize"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":384.69,"endTime":387.21,"body":"that, you know, that, that it is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":384.69,"endTime":387.21,"body":"out of the control of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":387.21,"endTime":391.17,"body":"workers. It's in process,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":387.21,"endTime":391.17,"body":"basically, you know, he says"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":391.17,"endTime":394.05,"body":"that, that would be a time to go"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":391.17,"endTime":394.05,"body":"back to the suppliers and stuff"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":394.05,"endTime":398.1,"body":"like that. And, and I think,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":394.05,"endTime":398.1,"body":"like, a modern version of this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":398.1,"endTime":402.36,"body":"game would be to stop it like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":398.1,"endTime":402.36,"body":"the fifth iteration, and then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":402.36,"endTime":406.71,"body":"have like, a post mortem. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":402.36,"endTime":406.71,"body":"then have, you know, sort of,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":406.71,"endTime":409.83,"body":"like you said, the testers are,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":406.71,"endTime":409.83,"body":"you know, they're, they're, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":409.83,"endTime":412.47,"body":"know, we're assuming they're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":409.83,"endTime":412.47,"body":"just willing workers, but like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":412.47,"endTime":415.65,"body":"in our world, typically, they're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":412.47,"endTime":415.65,"body":"very sort of valuable people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":415.65,"endTime":419.04,"body":"that run. Yeah. And like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":415.65,"endTime":419.04,"body":"everybody has stepped back and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":419.04,"endTime":422.46,"body":"take the system view and say,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":419.04,"endTime":422.46,"body":"you know, what, we've got, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":422.49,"endTime":427.74,"body":"two resources that are not being"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":422.49,"endTime":427.74,"body":"utilized properly. Yeah. They"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":427.74,"endTime":432.0,"body":"basically be sort of involved in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":427.74,"endTime":432.0,"body":"just some other sampling or, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":432.0,"endTime":436.32,"body":"know, like, yeah, to do that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":432.0,"endTime":436.32,"body":"what you're sort of saying,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":436.32,"endTime":436.65,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":437.94,"endTime":442.86,"body":"Yeah. Building"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":437.94,"endTime":442.86,"body":"quality in covers from Deming."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":443.1,"endTime":447.78,"body":"And so one of the ways you could"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":443.1,"endTime":447.78,"body":"look at building and is working"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":447.78,"endTime":452.07,"body":"more closely with your supplier,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":447.78,"endTime":452.07,"body":"I think the article I mentioned"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":452.07,"endTime":456.39,"body":"the four parts of the system of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":452.07,"endTime":456.39,"body":"profound knowledge, and how you"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":456.39,"endTime":459.72,"body":"could you could better could"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":456.39,"endTime":459.72,"body":"lead you in that direction, and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":459.72,"endTime":461.79,"body":"support your decision, because"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":459.72,"endTime":461.79,"body":"you need to live in that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":461.79,"endTime":465.15,"body":"variation. So actually, that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":461.79,"endTime":465.15,"body":"would be one of the things that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":465.15,"endTime":468.0,"body":"you'd be measuring, you'd need"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":465.15,"endTime":468.0,"body":"to look at psychology, because"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":468.33,"endTime":471.54,"body":"you've got some inspectors who"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":468.33,"endTime":471.54,"body":"presumably feel good about what"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":471.54,"endTime":474.24,"body":"they're doing. And they've been"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":471.54,"endTime":474.24,"body":"doing it for a while. And you're"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":474.24,"endTime":476.07,"body":"actually thinking, well,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":474.24,"endTime":476.07,"body":"actually, you would like them to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":476.07,"endTime":480.36,"body":"go and do something else. But so"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":476.07,"endTime":480.36,"body":"there's this important part of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":480.36,"endTime":483.96,"body":"psychology there. There is this"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":480.36,"endTime":483.96,"body":"part of systems thinking as"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":483.96,"endTime":490.29,"body":"well, that actually read beats"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":483.96,"endTime":490.29,"body":"company, it won't these company"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":490.29,"endTime":494.58,"body":"is not an autonomous system. So"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":490.29,"endTime":494.58,"body":"actually, they've got a look at"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":494.58,"endTime":496.53,"body":"how they work with other"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":494.58,"endTime":496.53,"body":"systems, such as their"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":496.53,"endTime":501.96,"body":"suppliers. So there's, there's"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":496.53,"endTime":501.96,"body":"always so much there. So much,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":501.96,"endTime":504.69,"body":"so many different directions,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":501.96,"endTime":504.69,"body":"you can you can go in and what"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":504.69,"endTime":507.06,"body":"I've tried to do it with each"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":504.69,"endTime":507.06,"body":"thing that I've written is just"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":507.06,"endTime":513.42,"body":"take an aspect of the red beads"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":507.06,"endTime":513.42,"body":"so that people can see that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":513.42,"endTime":514.98,"body":"that's useful, or this is"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":513.42,"endTime":514.98,"body":"useful."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":518.07,"endTime":521.28,"body":"Good. And so if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":518.07,"endTime":521.28,"body":"you're testing, like how do you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":521.28,"endTime":526.65,"body":"find sort of Deming philosophy,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":521.28,"endTime":526.65,"body":"you know, sort of work its way"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":526.65,"endTime":531.39,"body":"into, you know, the, what you do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":526.65,"endTime":531.39,"body":"on a daily basis, or how you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":531.39,"endTime":534.84,"body":"help customers? Any good"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":531.39,"endTime":534.84,"body":"examples there?"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":536.46,"endTime":539.34,"body":"I'd say one of the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":536.46,"endTime":539.34,"body":"interesting things for me"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":539.34,"endTime":543.9,"body":"recently was this theory of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":539.34,"endTime":543.9,"body":"knowledge, actually, because"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":545.88,"endTime":549.24,"body":"perhaps the most commonly used"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":545.88,"endTime":549.24,"body":"testing technique, boundary"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":549.24,"endTime":553.98,"body":"value analysis I've used, and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":549.24,"endTime":553.98,"body":"I've got a pat on the back, so"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":553.98,"endTime":557.16,"body":"that was good. But actually,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":553.98,"endTime":557.16,"body":"when I got involved in a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":557.16,"endTime":562.41,"body":"discussion, I realized I'd use"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":557.16,"endTime":562.41,"body":"the technique incorrectly. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":562.41,"endTime":567.0,"body":"if I hadn't had a theory as to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":562.41,"endTime":567.0,"body":"how to use the technique, I"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":567.0,"endTime":571.05,"body":"wouldn't have had something to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":567.0,"endTime":571.05,"body":"theory to revise, I wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":571.05,"endTime":574.29,"body":"have learned from it. So I think"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":571.05,"endTime":574.29,"body":"that that was something there"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":574.29,"endTime":579.75,"body":"that I've learned from just"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":574.29,"endTime":579.75,"body":"recently. Initially, I was very"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":579.75,"endTime":584.37,"body":"interested in the Deming Cycle,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":579.75,"endTime":584.37,"body":"but actually, the system of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":584.37,"endTime":588.45,"body":"profound knowledge has become"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":584.37,"endTime":588.45,"body":"far more interesting. I think"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":588.45,"endTime":592.05,"body":"more recently, I think I was"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":588.45,"endTime":592.05,"body":"interested in the Deming Cycle"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":592.05,"endTime":597.75,"body":"because working sort of both a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":592.05,"endTime":597.75,"body":"football team making a monthly"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":597.75,"endTime":601.59,"body":"release and then the transition"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":597.75,"endTime":601.59,"body":"to work. Getting into teams"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":601.62,"endTime":605.01,"body":"working iteratively is huge. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":601.62,"endTime":605.01,"body":"you could just see the benefits"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":605.04,"endTime":610.98,"body":"of planting steady X was you"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":605.04,"endTime":610.98,"body":"weren't able to do in a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":611.25,"endTime":617.43,"body":"waterfall months he released. So"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":611.25,"endTime":617.43,"body":"this was, that was my initial"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":617.7,"endTime":621.72,"body":"game. But it's saying that as"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":617.7,"endTime":621.72,"body":"testers, you could say, well,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":621.72,"endTime":624.87,"body":"we've got a problem here. Why"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":621.72,"endTime":624.87,"body":"can't we do that and learning"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":624.87,"endTime":627.9,"body":"from what you were doing. But"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":624.87,"endTime":627.9,"body":"just just recently, the same"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":627.9,"endTime":630.24,"body":"with serious knowledge? I think"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":627.9,"endTime":630.24,"body":"it's very interesting. I'm going"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":630.24,"endTime":632.52,"body":"to post something about it next"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":630.24,"endTime":632.52,"body":"week."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":634.14,"endTime":636.57,"body":"Yeah, no, I think,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":634.14,"endTime":636.57,"body":"you know, the, I think there's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":636.6,"endTime":640.59,"body":"the whole PDSA in the history of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":636.6,"endTime":640.59,"body":"PDSA, I think it was a run Mo,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":640.59,"endTime":643.02,"body":"and I know you did something"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":640.59,"endTime":643.02,"body":"about this, the history of PDSA,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":643.02,"endTime":645.78,"body":"and it's sort of fascinating"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":643.02,"endTime":645.78,"body":"from where it starts from sure"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":645.78,"endTime":649.92,"body":"it then it goes to sort of, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":645.78,"endTime":649.92,"body":"know, Japan, and then it's sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":649.92,"endTime":654.06,"body":"of called PDCA. And look at the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":649.92,"endTime":654.06,"body":"whole history. But the thing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":654.06,"endTime":658.02,"body":"I've thought a lot about is how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":654.06,"endTime":658.02,"body":"do you meld the plan, do study"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":658.02,"endTime":661.26,"body":"act with the profound knowledge."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":658.02,"endTime":661.26,"body":"And I think there's a mapping"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":661.26,"endTime":665.01,"body":"that works, right, which is the,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":661.26,"endTime":665.01,"body":"you know, the planning is really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":665.01,"endTime":669.42,"body":"that, I think I've said this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":665.01,"endTime":669.42,"body":"before, but I think that the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":669.42,"endTime":671.85,"body":"more I've learned about the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":669.42,"endTime":671.85,"body":"system, or found knowledge arts,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":671.85,"endTime":675.0,"body":"so just I think anybody who's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":671.85,"endTime":675.0,"body":"listened this far in a bike as"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":675.0,"endTime":677.94,"body":"knows what it is, but it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":675.0,"endTime":677.94,"body":"theory of knowledge, theory,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":677.94,"endTime":683.28,"body":"variation, theory, psychology"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":677.94,"endTime":683.28,"body":"and appreciate it. And I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":683.28,"endTime":686.97,"body":"that, you know, there should be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":683.28,"endTime":686.97,"body":"an order, you know, and I, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":686.97,"endTime":689.7,"body":"I'm still sort of, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":686.97,"endTime":689.7,"body":"convinced I'm right about this."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":689.7,"endTime":693.12,"body":"But I think the order is, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":689.7,"endTime":693.12,"body":"know, the theory knowledge,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":693.12,"endTime":696.51,"body":"which is, how do I know what I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":693.12,"endTime":696.51,"body":"think I know, you know, back to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":696.51,"endTime":702.54,"body":"Yeah. And then the, and that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":696.51,"endTime":702.54,"body":"the plan, right? Yeah. And then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":702.54,"endTime":710.61,"body":"the sort of do is? How do we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":702.54,"endTime":710.61,"body":"like, check or verify what we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":710.61,"endTime":715.26,"body":"think we know, right? To doing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":710.61,"endTime":715.26,"body":"the sort of, you know, and a lot"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":715.26,"endTime":717.9,"body":"of ways it's the theory of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":715.26,"endTime":717.9,"body":"variation. And he's more than"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":718.23,"endTime":721.23,"body":"you see, it really is analytical"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":718.23,"endTime":721.23,"body":"statistics, like, you know, how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":721.23,"endTime":725.16,"body":"do we sort of use the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":721.23,"endTime":725.16,"body":"statistical analysis to tell us,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":725.58,"endTime":727.95,"body":"you know, where we're gonna go"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":725.58,"endTime":727.95,"body":"to sort of figure out the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":727.95,"endTime":731.82,"body":"problem, and then your study,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":727.95,"endTime":731.82,"body":"then is your psychology and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":731.82,"endTime":736.53,"body":"systems thinking? Okay, right."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":731.82,"endTime":736.53,"body":"And then your act is like, what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":736.53,"endTime":740.43,"body":"you've learned and what you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":736.53,"endTime":740.43,"body":"what, what sort of decision? And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":740.43,"endTime":744.72,"body":"I think in that case, that the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":740.43,"endTime":744.72,"body":"theory knowledge and PDSA map"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":744.75,"endTime":749.07,"body":"very well. And because you're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":744.75,"endTime":749.07,"body":"always starting off with this,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":749.07,"endTime":753.78,"body":"sort of like this, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":749.07,"endTime":753.78,"body":"this piston logical question of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":753.78,"endTime":757.35,"body":"like, what what is, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":753.78,"endTime":757.35,"body":"what do I think, what do I, what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":757.35,"endTime":761.4,"body":"do I think I know, right? And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":757.35,"endTime":761.4,"body":"then you're sort of going"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":761.4,"endTime":764.4,"body":"through some process to that. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":761.4,"endTime":764.4,"body":"I think they both were very"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":764.4,"endTime":768.99,"body":"consistent. And, you know, and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":764.4,"endTime":768.99,"body":"think if you take your sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":769.23,"endTime":772.83,"body":"boundary you to go boundary plan"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":769.23,"endTime":772.83,"body":"analysis, or boundary value"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":772.83,"endTime":778.08,"body":"analysis or value. Okay, cool."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":772.83,"endTime":778.08,"body":"And if you take that into your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":778.08,"endTime":780.63,"body":"example, basically, you had, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":778.08,"endTime":780.63,"body":"know, fortunately, you didn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":780.63,"endTime":784.2,"body":"just do it, you had a theory of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":780.63,"endTime":784.2,"body":"what it was going to do, you use"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":784.2,"endTime":789.66,"body":"some type of a type of analysis,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":784.2,"endTime":789.66,"body":"to figure out what it what was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":789.66,"endTime":794.07,"body":"the, you needed that to sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":789.66,"endTime":794.07,"body":"be able to then study the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":794.07,"endTime":797.34,"body":"analysis and study, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":794.07,"endTime":797.34,"body":"you, you know, depending on what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":797.34,"endTime":801.6,"body":"you needed to do, and correct me"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":797.34,"endTime":801.6,"body":"or add to this, but you, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":801.6,"endTime":804.33,"body":"know, at some point, depending"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":801.6,"endTime":804.33,"body":"on who you are interacting, what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":804.33,"endTime":806.85,"body":"the motivations were, what your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":804.33,"endTime":806.85,"body":"inner inner relationship"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":806.85,"endTime":812.46,"body":"motivations, were you, you had a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":806.85,"endTime":812.46,"body":"psychological lens, you play the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":812.46,"endTime":816.45,"body":"sort of system thinking, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":812.46,"endTime":816.45,"body":"is what I'm about to do gonna,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":816.48,"endTime":822.84,"body":"you know, just improve a local"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":816.48,"endTime":822.84,"body":"improvement, or it's gonna. So,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":823.17,"endTime":830.55,"body":"yeah, I think that's pretty"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":823.17,"endTime":830.55,"body":"cool. Yeah. And I think just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":830.55,"endTime":836.04,"body":"looking at some of the other"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":830.55,"endTime":836.04,"body":"stuff, you, you talk, I did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":836.04,"endTime":839.22,"body":"write about continuous delivery"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":836.04,"endTime":839.22,"body":"and continuous deployment. And I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":839.22,"endTime":842.16,"body":"guess, in general, tell us a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":839.22,"endTime":842.16,"body":"little more just about like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":842.19,"endTime":846.03,"body":"the, I think this is worthwhile."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":842.19,"endTime":846.03,"body":"Anything more on Deming, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":846.03,"endTime":849.45,"body":"like, what should we know about?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":846.03,"endTime":849.45,"body":"It sounds like, you know, I've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":849.45,"endTime":852.66,"body":"had a couple of people, Adam"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":849.45,"endTime":852.66,"body":"Hawkins, and like I said, of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":852.99,"endTime":858.21,"body":"Elizabeth, and I think a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":852.99,"endTime":858.21,"body":"people in DevOps don't really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":858.48,"endTime":861.99,"body":"making an assumption based on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":858.48,"endTime":861.99,"body":"me, we don't really understand"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":861.99,"endTime":865.92,"body":"there's true strong history of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":861.99,"endTime":865.92,"body":"people who've been doing testing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":865.92,"endTime":870.48,"body":"for years. Understand a deeper"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":865.92,"endTime":870.48,"body":"discipline than just that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":870.48,"endTime":874.92,"body":"testers. You know, the early"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":870.48,"endTime":874.92,"body":"days of DevOps was get Devon ops"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":874.92,"endTime":877.92,"body":"together, and then he like, oh,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":874.92,"endTime":877.92,"body":"well, now we got to go get the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":877.92,"endTime":881.76,"body":"testers, the QA people to come"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":877.92,"endTime":881.76,"body":"in and write and write, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":881.76,"endTime":887.37,"body":"okay, and seem like it was easy"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":881.76,"endTime":887.37,"body":"to get the QA people in, then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":887.43,"endTime":890.16,"body":"maybe the network and hold on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":887.43,"endTime":890.16,"body":"Wednesday. Okay, right. Yeah."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":890.7,"endTime":893.82,"body":"Because because, you know, I'll"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":890.7,"endTime":893.82,"body":"say you you guys got it. But But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":893.82,"endTime":898.38,"body":"I guess the long version of my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":893.82,"endTime":898.38,"body":"question is, what is sort of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":898.38,"endTime":900.93,"body":"state of the art of testing or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":898.38,"endTime":900.93,"body":"what But you know, what should"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":900.93,"endTime":905.73,"body":"we know about the the world? You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":900.93,"endTime":905.73,"body":"know somebody who's it's your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":905.73,"endTime":907.35,"body":"craft events?"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":908.76,"endTime":910.86,"body":"Yeah. And I think"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":908.76,"endTime":910.86,"body":"it's a good question. I think"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":910.86,"endTime":916.17,"body":"that testing is about constant"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":910.86,"endTime":916.17,"body":"learning. It's about having a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":916.17,"endTime":920.16,"body":"wide range of skills. You know,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":916.17,"endTime":920.16,"body":"there's talk about T shirt, T"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":920.16,"endTime":923.16,"body":"shaped people, I've just been"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":920.16,"endTime":923.16,"body":"reading a Chicago, he talks"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":923.16,"endTime":926.73,"body":"about cone shaped engineers or"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":923.16,"endTime":926.73,"body":"well shaped engineers. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":926.73,"endTime":929.43,"body":"actually this range of skills"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":926.73,"endTime":929.43,"body":"that you got your central skills"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":929.43,"endTime":931.83,"body":"here at tastic. But actually,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":929.43,"endTime":931.83,"body":"you can do lots of other things"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":931.83,"endTime":934.47,"body":"as well. You can write SQL, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":931.83,"endTime":934.47,"body":"can write some code, you can"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":934.47,"endTime":940.44,"body":"have opinions on design, you can"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":934.47,"endTime":940.44,"body":"facilitate meetings. So if"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":940.44,"endTime":942.18,"body":"you've got a range of skills,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":940.44,"endTime":942.18,"body":"and you've always got to be"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":942.18,"endTime":945.39,"body":"interested in developing those"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":942.18,"endTime":945.39,"body":"skills, I think one of the key"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":945.39,"endTime":949.2,"body":"skills is thinking critically,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":945.39,"endTime":949.2,"body":"because you're going to be"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":949.2,"endTime":952.11,"body":"looking at it and saying, how"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":949.2,"endTime":952.11,"body":"would that work? I think there's"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":952.11,"endTime":955.56,"body":"an also an important thing from"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":952.11,"endTime":955.56,"body":"looking at things. From a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":955.56,"endTime":957.93,"body":"customer's point of view,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":955.56,"endTime":957.93,"body":"there's a range of skills,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":957.96,"endTime":960.72,"body":"things, techniques, you can do"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":957.96,"endTime":960.72,"body":"that, I think quite interesting"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":960.75,"endTime":964.5,"body":"in theory of jobs to be done,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":960.75,"endTime":964.5,"body":"which is something we use a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":964.5,"endTime":970.29,"body":"Geckoboard. I would say that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":964.5,"endTime":970.29,"body":"there's, I think interpersonal"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":970.29,"endTime":974.04,"body":"skills are really important as"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":970.29,"endTime":974.04,"body":"well, because you think you're"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":974.04,"endTime":978.81,"body":"giving bad news, you know, so"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":974.04,"endTime":978.81,"body":"actually, psychology is very"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":978.81,"endTime":983.58,"body":"important. So I think that's,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":978.81,"endTime":983.58,"body":"that's really very important as"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":983.58,"endTime":988.08,"body":"well. But I think it's about"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":983.58,"endTime":988.08,"body":"continually learning. And I've"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":988.26,"endTime":991.23,"body":"been working in testing for 20"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":988.26,"endTime":991.23,"body":"years in a range of different"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":991.23,"endTime":996.51,"body":"roles. And I'm still learning."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":991.23,"endTime":996.51,"body":"And so I think that's really"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":996.51,"endTime":999.78,"body":"important. And I think for me,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":996.51,"endTime":999.78,"body":"one of the important things to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":999.78,"endTime":1004.04,"body":"learn is, is actually to go back"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":999.78,"endTime":1004.04,"body":"to the greats like like Deming,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1004.13,"endTime":1008.0,"body":"and the learning from them,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1004.13,"endTime":1008.0,"body":"because if you're not working on"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1008.0,"endTime":1012.26,"body":"a plan to study act cycle, as a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1008.0,"endTime":1012.26,"body":"tester, you're going to have a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1012.26,"endTime":1014.81,"body":"problem. But you've got to plan"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1012.26,"endTime":1014.81,"body":"a test, you're going to execute"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1014.81,"endTime":1019.67,"body":"the test, study the results, and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1014.81,"endTime":1019.67,"body":"then act on the results. And I"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1019.67,"endTime":1022.79,"body":"think it's really good to see"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1019.67,"endTime":1022.79,"body":"things in that way. You're also"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1022.79,"endTime":1025.7,"body":"looking to build quality, and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1022.79,"endTime":1025.7,"body":"you're not going to be the bad"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1025.7,"endTime":1028.19,"body":"guy that comes along at the end"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1025.7,"endTime":1028.19,"body":"and says, Oh, no, you can't ship"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1028.19,"endTime":1033.26,"body":"it. You actually, you want to be"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1028.19,"endTime":1033.26,"body":"working with the developers. So"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1033.26,"endTime":1038.51,"body":"that actually, when it's ready,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1033.26,"endTime":1038.51,"body":"it can just go, you know, this"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1038.51,"endTime":1040.55,"body":"is the sort of thing that you're"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1038.51,"endTime":1040.55,"body":"trying to learn, I'm trying to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1040.55,"endTime":1045.32,"body":"learn from Deming. And that he"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1040.55,"endTime":1045.32,"body":"helps us in so many different"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1045.32,"endTime":1048.56,"body":"ways, initially, sounds very"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1045.32,"endTime":1048.56,"body":"interested in the cycle. But"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1048.56,"endTime":1052.67,"body":"then you found the applications"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1048.56,"endTime":1052.67,"body":"of systems thinking and things"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1052.67,"endTime":1057.02,"body":"like wanting teamwork across the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1052.67,"endTime":1057.02,"body":"company. That's really"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1057.02,"endTime":1061.43,"body":"important. Because actually, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1057.02,"endTime":1061.43,"body":"need to be collaborating with"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1061.52,"endTime":1064.13,"body":"the developers, with the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1061.52,"endTime":1064.13,"body":"designers with the product"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1064.13,"endTime":1071.6,"body":"owner, with customer support."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1064.13,"endTime":1071.6,"body":"That's all done. So the what"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1071.6,"endTime":1075.23,"body":"the, the importance of things"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1071.6,"endTime":1075.23,"body":"like driving out fear, for a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1075.23,"endTime":1080.21,"body":"tester, that's really important."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1075.23,"endTime":1080.21,"body":"Because if we can't ask naive"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1080.21,"endTime":1086.33,"body":"questions, sent in facts, or"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1080.21,"endTime":1086.33,"body":"difficult questions, it, it's"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1086.33,"endTime":1089.93,"body":"going to make our role very"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1086.33,"endTime":1089.93,"body":"difficult. And it also thinks it"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1089.93,"endTime":1094.43,"body":"makes it far more difficult to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1089.93,"endTime":1094.43,"body":"ship quality products. This is,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1094.73,"endTime":1097.67,"body":"again, something that Dan said,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1094.73,"endTime":1097.67,"body":"so I said, okay, yeah, there's"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1097.73,"endTime":1100.55,"body":"so much here. And each time I"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1097.73,"endTime":1100.55,"body":"look into something, there's"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1100.55,"endTime":1105.08,"body":"more and more, you know, remove"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1100.55,"endTime":1105.08,"body":"the barriers to what he called"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1105.08,"endTime":1109.1,"body":"good workmanship. Well,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1105.08,"endTime":1109.1,"body":"actually, yeah, that's really"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1109.1,"endTime":1111.92,"body":"important, isn't it, you need to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1109.1,"endTime":1111.92,"body":"feel good about what you're"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1111.92,"endTime":1115.82,"body":"doing, you need to be treated"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1111.92,"endTime":1115.82,"body":"well. There's all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1115.82,"endTime":1119.15,"body":"things you can apply that to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1115.82,"endTime":1119.15,"body":"there. One of the things that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1119.15,"endTime":1122.81,"body":"occurred to me that actually"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1119.15,"endTime":1122.81,"body":"that if your development team"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1122.81,"endTime":1125.96,"body":"hasn't got any women engineers"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1122.81,"endTime":1125.96,"body":"in it, perhaps you're missing"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1125.96,"endTime":1129.59,"body":"out on some fantastic engineers,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1125.96,"endTime":1129.59,"body":"and actually not having women"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1129.59,"endTime":1134.66,"body":"engineers is a barrier to good"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1129.59,"endTime":1134.66,"body":"work. And again, I would say if"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1134.66,"endTime":1138.26,"body":"you've got women engineers in"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1134.66,"endTime":1138.26,"body":"your team, and they feel they're"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1138.26,"endTime":1142.22,"body":"not listened to. Well, in fact,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1138.26,"endTime":1142.22,"body":"that's another barrier to good"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1142.22,"endTime":1144.89,"body":"work, because you're missing out"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1142.22,"endTime":1144.89,"body":"on some fantastic engineering."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1146.69,"endTime":1148.82,"body":"No, I think there,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1146.69,"endTime":1148.82,"body":"there's so much there, right,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1148.82,"endTime":1153.86,"body":"like the psychological safety,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1148.82,"endTime":1153.86,"body":"you know, sort of aspect of, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1153.86,"endTime":1156.8,"body":"know, just and I agree, I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1153.86,"endTime":1156.8,"body":"it was a great document in our"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1156.8,"endTime":1160.43,"body":"categories, where they, they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1156.8,"endTime":1160.43,"body":"really showed how diversity sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1160.43,"endTime":1163.52,"body":"of like, especially in sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1160.43,"endTime":1163.52,"body":"marketing, engineering, or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1163.52,"endTime":1167.03,"body":"engineering or product ideas and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1163.52,"endTime":1167.03,"body":"stuff like that. Having all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1167.03,"endTime":1170.15,"body":"male, you know, like, it was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1167.03,"endTime":1170.15,"body":"just missing incredible"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1170.15,"endTime":1173.81,"body":"opportunities. But yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1170.15,"endTime":1173.81,"body":"there's no doubt diversity adds,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1174.59,"endTime":1179.75,"body":"you know, you know, I would say"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1174.59,"endTime":1179.75,"body":"exponential value, but like, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1179.75,"endTime":1185.27,"body":"certainly more than just linear"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1179.75,"endTime":1185.27,"body":"value, but yeah, and I think the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1185.27,"endTime":1187.67,"body":"other thing I love that you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1185.27,"endTime":1187.67,"body":"talked about, like, early on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1187.67,"endTime":1190.07,"body":"when I was trying to understand"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1187.67,"endTime":1190.07,"body":"the system found knowledge,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1190.07,"endTime":1193.46,"body":"right, like, you know, variation"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1190.07,"endTime":1193.46,"body":"like you can, you know, like you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1193.46,"endTime":1195.8,"body":"spent a lifetime because there's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1193.46,"endTime":1195.8,"body":"tons of information for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1195.8,"endTime":1198.89,"body":"manufacturing there and you can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1195.8,"endTime":1198.89,"body":"sort of learn there are layers"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1198.89,"endTime":1201.95,"body":"to it that that you know, as you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1198.89,"endTime":1201.95,"body":"get deeper and deeper, theory,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1201.95,"endTime":1204.38,"body":"knowledge was a little bit"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1201.95,"endTime":1204.38,"body":"harder because I had to go back"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1204.38,"endTime":1207.62,"body":"and really figure out like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1204.38,"endTime":1207.62,"body":"where he got his, you know, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1207.62,"endTime":1211.16,"body":"know, he mostly a lot got a lot"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1207.62,"endTime":1211.16,"body":"of that from, you know, sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1211.16,"endTime":1214.55,"body":"pragmatism and early philosophy."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1211.16,"endTime":1214.55,"body":"And it's just some thinking"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1214.55,"endTime":1217.01,"body":"again, there another just, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1214.55,"endTime":1217.01,"body":"know, once you realize he, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1217.01,"endTime":1220.22,"body":"know, when he said appreciation"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1217.01,"endTime":1220.22,"body":"system, somebody asked a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1220.22,"endTime":1223.04,"body":"question once, like, I wonder"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1220.22,"endTime":1223.04,"body":"why he didn't just call it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1223.04,"endTime":1227.45,"body":"theory of systems thinking,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1223.04,"endTime":1227.45,"body":"right, but like, there's some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1227.45,"endTime":1229.88,"body":"theories that maybe why I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1227.45,"endTime":1229.88,"body":"he figured that everybody"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1229.88,"endTime":1233.87,"body":"already knew, like system"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1229.88,"endTime":1233.87,"body":"thinking, but that's a damning"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1233.87,"endTime":1237.2,"body":"thing. But serious psychology"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1233.87,"endTime":1237.2,"body":"was the one that so I struggled"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1237.2,"endTime":1242.66,"body":"with, to really get beyond just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1237.2,"endTime":1242.66,"body":"cliches, you know, intrinsic"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1242.66,"endTime":1245.69,"body":"versus extrinsic, we're done."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1242.66,"endTime":1245.69,"body":"But so I love when you said"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1245.69,"endTime":1249.38,"body":"that, like, you know, a part of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1245.69,"endTime":1249.38,"body":"a theory, psychology in your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1249.38,"endTime":1255.14,"body":"work is, you tell people bad"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1249.38,"endTime":1255.14,"body":"news. They the sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1255.17,"endTime":1258.11,"body":"empathetic transaction that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1255.17,"endTime":1258.11,"body":"you're going to have to sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1258.71,"endTime":1262.22,"body":"figure out from your side and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1258.71,"endTime":1262.22,"body":"their side in, like, in fear,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1262.22,"endTime":1265.91,"body":"drive out fear. That's, that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1262.22,"endTime":1265.91,"body":"what's like, we're all like, can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1265.91,"endTime":1269.6,"body":"we do we feel depending, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1265.91,"endTime":1269.6,"body":"know, sometimes I feel like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1269.6,"endTime":1271.79,"body":"know, I'm the guy that speaks"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1269.6,"endTime":1271.79,"body":"around the world. And I know"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1271.79,"endTime":1274.76,"body":"this, and I know that, but then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1271.79,"endTime":1274.76,"body":"you put me in a sort of forum"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1274.76,"endTime":1278.09,"body":"where there's, like, you know, a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1274.76,"endTime":1278.09,"body":"bunch of PhD people. And I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1278.09,"endTime":1281.78,"body":"like, you know, I know, I have a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1278.09,"endTime":1281.78,"body":"question here. But like, should"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1281.78,"endTime":1286.97,"body":"I, you know, like, we all have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1281.78,"endTime":1286.97,"body":"that sort of thing, and you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1286.97,"endTime":1291.8,"body":"write it, it reduces quality in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1286.97,"endTime":1291.8,"body":"any sort of scenario where we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1291.8,"endTime":1296.09,"body":"don't, you know, we're like, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1291.8,"endTime":1296.09,"body":"just don't feel comfortable. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1296.09,"endTime":1298.82,"body":"some people just make you feel"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1296.09,"endTime":1298.82,"body":"comfortable, right, but, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1299.36,"endTime":1302.27,"body":"just don't know, the comfort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1299.36,"endTime":1302.27,"body":"level that people you're with."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1304.7,"endTime":1307.85,"body":"It's also very"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1304.7,"endTime":1307.85,"body":"interesting in that I raised"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1307.85,"endTime":1311.42,"body":"this when I speak at conferences"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1307.85,"endTime":1311.42,"body":"about any testing conferences,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1311.84,"endTime":1314.03,"body":"because there's been a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1311.84,"endTime":1314.03,"body":"discussion last couple of years"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1314.03,"endTime":1317.39,"body":"about the importance of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1314.03,"endTime":1317.39,"body":"psychological safety. And so"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1317.63,"endTime":1320.42,"body":"when I talk about Demings, 14"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1317.63,"endTime":1320.42,"body":"points, I say, try that. Well,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1320.42,"endTime":1324.65,"body":"we talk about this now, the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1320.42,"endTime":1324.65,"body":"psychological safety. What are"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1324.65,"endTime":1327.95,"body":"the points stemming says it's"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1324.65,"endTime":1327.95,"body":"the managing management will"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1327.95,"endTime":1333.14,"body":"struggle over every one of these"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1327.95,"endTime":1333.14,"body":"14 points. And actually, the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1333.14,"endTime":1338.18,"body":"fact that he wrote this book in"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1333.14,"endTime":1338.18,"body":"1982, I think he first spoke"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1338.18,"endTime":1343.91,"body":"about the 14 points in Tokyo in"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1338.18,"endTime":1343.91,"body":"1978. Well, actually, we're"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1343.91,"endTime":1347.12,"body":"still talking about the need for"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1343.91,"endTime":1347.12,"body":"it now shows that struggle. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1347.12,"endTime":1350.72,"body":"I think that one of the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1347.12,"endTime":1350.72,"body":"interesting things about the 14"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1350.72,"endTime":1353.09,"body":"points and what the point I'm"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1350.72,"endTime":1353.09,"body":"trying to make there is"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1353.09,"endTime":1356.54,"body":"actually, you can see that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1353.09,"endTime":1356.54,"body":"struggle there. And actually,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1356.54,"endTime":1360.44,"body":"you can D personalize it. You're"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1356.54,"endTime":1360.44,"body":"not sort of saying actually,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1360.44,"endTime":1363.41,"body":"that's about my manager,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1360.44,"endTime":1363.41,"body":"actually, this is about a longer"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1363.41,"endTime":1367.58,"body":"issue. It's about education,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1363.41,"endTime":1367.58,"body":"it's about leadership. And in"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1367.58,"endTime":1371.54,"body":"fact, that's a far easier way to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1367.58,"endTime":1371.54,"body":"deal with these things. And if"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1371.54,"endTime":1376.4,"body":"you're feeling frightened at"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1371.54,"endTime":1376.4,"body":"work, then in fact, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1376.4,"endTime":1380.3,"body":"it's not your fault. You know,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1376.4,"endTime":1380.3,"body":"it's actually it's an issue with"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1380.3,"endTime":1384.08,"body":"leadership. And I think that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1380.3,"endTime":1384.08,"body":"makes it far easier to deal"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1384.08,"endTime":1388.34,"body":"with. The first time I spoke"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1384.08,"endTime":1388.34,"body":"about this, someone came up out"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1388.34,"endTime":1390.89,"body":"of the audience afterwards and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1388.34,"endTime":1390.89,"body":"said, you know, we have a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1390.89,"endTime":1396.23,"body":"climate of fear at work. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1390.89,"endTime":1396.23,"body":"that was a real tragedy. Because"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1397.16,"endTime":1399.86,"body":"for her for that, in that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1397.16,"endTime":1399.86,"body":"particular developer, that was a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1399.86,"endTime":1403.73,"body":"real tragedy. For the whole"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1399.86,"endTime":1403.73,"body":"team. It's really bad for the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1403.73,"endTime":1405.77,"body":"whole company, it's really bad"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1403.73,"endTime":1405.77,"body":"because they're going to be"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1405.77,"endTime":1409.04,"body":"shipping, poor quality works."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1405.77,"endTime":1409.04,"body":"And for the company's customers,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1409.04,"endTime":1412.76,"body":"it's really bad as well. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1409.04,"endTime":1412.76,"body":"actually, because of the way"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1412.76,"endTime":1416.24,"body":"Deming deals with these issues,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1412.76,"endTime":1416.24,"body":"you can see it in that context."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1416.24,"endTime":1418.73,"body":"And as an individual, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1416.24,"endTime":1418.73,"body":"shouldn't feel bad, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1418.73,"endTime":1421.19,"body":"shouldn't feel threatened and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1418.73,"endTime":1421.19,"body":"you shouldn't feel it's your"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1421.19,"endTime":1423.71,"body":"fault. It actually, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1421.19,"endTime":1423.71,"body":"that it's an issue to do with"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1423.71,"endTime":1424.31,"body":"leadership."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1425.66,"endTime":1427.25,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1425.66,"endTime":1427.25,"body":"You know, it's, uh, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1427.28,"endTime":1429.95,"body":"one of the things when I first"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1427.28,"endTime":1429.95,"body":"read new economic or non"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1430.07,"endTime":1433.76,"body":"economic far out of out of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1430.07,"endTime":1433.76,"body":"crisis, I thought, Oh, this is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1433.76,"endTime":1436.52,"body":"gonna be great. Well, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1433.76,"endTime":1436.52,"body":"for me, like I've said this many"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1436.52,"endTime":1440.48,"body":"times is we were in a DevOps"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1436.52,"endTime":1440.48,"body":"open spaces, and I had read a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1440.48,"endTime":1446.3,"body":"whole bunch about the Go rat,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1440.48,"endTime":1446.3,"body":"and a goal and, you know, Jean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1446.33,"endTime":1449.48,"body":"he sort of forced me and forced"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1446.33,"endTime":1449.48,"body":"me to recommend that I read the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1449.48,"endTime":1453.41,"body":"goal before reading the Venus"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1449.48,"endTime":1453.41,"body":"Project. And then we were in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1453.41,"endTime":1456.17,"body":"open spaces and Ben Rockwood"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1453.41,"endTime":1456.17,"body":"basically said, John, it all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1456.17,"endTime":1459.35,"body":"goes back to Deming, and I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1456.17,"endTime":1459.35,"body":"like, Come on, don't just throw"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1459.35,"endTime":1462.23,"body":"another name on my plate, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1459.35,"endTime":1462.23,"body":"know, and, and he said, Well, do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1462.23,"endTime":1466.85,"body":"me this favor, go sort of look"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1462.23,"endTime":1466.85,"body":"at Demings 14 points. I did and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1466.85,"endTime":1469.25,"body":"I'm like, holy crap, this could"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1466.85,"endTime":1469.25,"body":"be a DevOps presentation. You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1469.25,"endTime":1473.78,"body":"know, this is, Deming said I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1469.25,"endTime":1473.78,"body":"love where he is. This guy did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1473.78,"endTime":1476.84,"body":"this thing this morning for Dora"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1473.78,"endTime":1476.84,"body":"metrics, you know, operational"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1476.84,"endTime":1480.41,"body":"definitions in which and let's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1476.84,"endTime":1480.41,"body":"talk about that in a second."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1480.74,"endTime":1483.35,"body":"And, you know, the people were"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1480.74,"endTime":1483.35,"body":"talking about, like, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1483.35,"endTime":1486.92,"body":"like, there's always thing comes"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1483.35,"endTime":1486.92,"body":"up about management and how we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1486.92,"endTime":1489.89,"body":"can get it right and leadership"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1486.92,"endTime":1489.89,"body":"and I just said, you know, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1489.89,"endTime":1493.4,"body":"Deming said, like in the 80s,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1489.89,"endTime":1493.4,"body":"you know, the tyranny of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1493.4,"endTime":1497.45,"body":"prevailing style of management,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1493.4,"endTime":1497.45,"body":"you know, like, you came today"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1497.48,"endTime":1500.99,"body":"sit and go, yeah, it's still the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1497.48,"endTime":1500.99,"body":"tyranny The prevailing style of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1500.99,"endTime":1505.91,"body":"management, right? Yes, yes."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1500.99,"endTime":1505.91,"body":"Yeah, we, I think we struggle."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1506.48,"endTime":1510.38,"body":"You know, and I don't know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1506.48,"endTime":1510.38,"body":"like, you know that my other"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1510.38,"endTime":1513.23,"body":"sort of pet peeves is why I get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1510.38,"endTime":1513.23,"body":"excited when I see somebody like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1513.23,"endTime":1517.61,"body":"you and sort of software domains"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1513.23,"endTime":1517.61,"body":"of like really understanding and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1517.61,"endTime":1521.3,"body":"taking them and stuff. Because,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1517.61,"endTime":1521.3,"body":"you know, you know, I know I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1521.3,"endTime":1524.48,"body":"down the rabbit hole, but like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1521.3,"endTime":1524.48,"body":"I just think, in our industry,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1524.48,"endTime":1527.57,"body":"we should we give it a try,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1524.48,"endTime":1527.57,"body":"because it's, the stuff has been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1527.57,"endTime":1531.23,"body":"around for 100 years. It's used"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1527.57,"endTime":1531.23,"body":"in nuclear power plants, it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1531.23,"endTime":1535.19,"body":"been used for creating posters"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1531.23,"endTime":1535.19,"body":"to cars, you know, and we just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1535.19,"endTime":1539.96,"body":"somehow ignore this level of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1535.19,"endTime":1539.96,"body":"operational science in our in,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1540.2,"endTime":1541.1,"body":"in our domain."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1543.29,"endTime":1547.34,"body":"It's what drives me"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1543.29,"endTime":1547.34,"body":"to speak, that drives me to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1547.34,"endTime":1554.63,"body":"write, because my understanding"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1547.34,"endTime":1554.63,"body":"is that these ideas largely come"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1554.63,"endTime":1559.22,"body":"out of the, the bell telephones"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1554.63,"endTime":1559.22,"body":"in the 1920s, when Bell"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1559.22,"endTime":1563.51,"body":"telephones were creating, what"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1559.22,"endTime":1563.51,"body":"was the first national telephone"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1563.51,"endTime":1567.53,"body":"system for the United States,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1563.51,"endTime":1567.53,"body":"this was a huge projects that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1567.53,"endTime":1572.51,"body":"actually brought together 10s of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1567.53,"endTime":1572.51,"body":"1000s of people, all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1572.51,"endTime":1575.87,"body":"people. And they learned to not"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1572.51,"endTime":1575.87,"body":"fall off. Shewhart was fair,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1576.08,"endTime":1582.38,"body":"Deming was there Duran was"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1576.08,"endTime":1582.38,"body":"there. And the lessons I learned"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1582.38,"endTime":1588.53,"body":"from that aren't taught in"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1582.38,"endTime":1588.53,"body":"computer science courses. I know"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1588.53,"endTime":1591.92,"body":"a tester who's got an economics"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1588.53,"endTime":1591.92,"body":"degree, they will have their"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1591.92,"endTime":1596.6,"body":"economics course. I think"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1591.92,"endTime":1596.6,"body":"sometimes it comes on an NBA."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1597.92,"endTime":1602.87,"body":"And so actually, my life as a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1597.92,"endTime":1602.87,"body":"tester, or the life of other"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1602.87,"endTime":1608.18,"body":"testers is so much better. If we"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1602.87,"endTime":1608.18,"body":"actually understand the lessons"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1608.18,"endTime":1611.42,"body":"that came from that time, the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1608.18,"endTime":1611.42,"body":"timeline that you've identified"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1611.42,"endTime":1615.95,"body":"of Denning, Toyota lien child,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1611.42,"endTime":1615.95,"body":"the good stuff comes out of, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1615.95,"endTime":1619.79,"body":"know, comes out of that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1615.95,"endTime":1619.79,"body":"timeline, history of ideas. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1619.85,"endTime":1622.7,"body":"I want to share that. So that's"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1619.85,"endTime":1622.7,"body":"what that's what's been"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1622.7,"endTime":1626.9,"body":"motivating me to do what I've"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1622.7,"endTime":1626.9,"body":"been doing. And aren't if our"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1626.9,"endTime":1629.12,"body":"life is better as testers,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1626.9,"endTime":1629.12,"body":"actually we're producing better"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1629.12,"endTime":1633.65,"body":"quality work. They're producing"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1629.12,"endTime":1633.65,"body":"better quality products. So"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1633.65,"endTime":1637.01,"body":"there is a relationship there."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1633.65,"endTime":1637.01,"body":"And I that that's what really"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1637.01,"endTime":1639.44,"body":"motivates me to do it. And I"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1637.01,"endTime":1639.44,"body":"think it's a great shame that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1639.44,"endTime":1642.53,"body":"people, these things aren't"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1639.44,"endTime":1642.53,"body":"covered in computer science"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1642.53,"endTime":1643.13,"body":"courses."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1644.54,"endTime":1647.3,"body":"I think computer"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1644.54,"endTime":1647.3,"body":"science, you know, I think I was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1647.3,"endTime":1650.54,"body":"talking to Mark Burgess, who is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1647.3,"endTime":1650.54,"body":"one of the pioneers of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1650.54,"endTime":1654.83,"body":"infrastructures code. And he I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1650.54,"endTime":1654.83,"body":"was visiting with him last week,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1654.83,"endTime":1658.94,"body":"and he said, The rumors of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1654.83,"endTime":1658.94,"body":"science and computer science are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1658.94,"endTime":1663.5,"body":"greatly exaggerated, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1658.94,"endTime":1663.5,"body":"you know, like, the, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1663.5,"endTime":1666.02,"body":"if you think about, like, it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1663.5,"endTime":1666.02,"body":"sort of drives me nuts, when I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1666.02,"endTime":1669.32,"body":"get invited to a university to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1666.02,"endTime":1669.32,"body":"talk to like the professors"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1669.32,"endTime":1673.16,"body":"about their curriculum, and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1669.32,"endTime":1673.16,"body":"see that it's really sort of two"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1673.16,"endTime":1677.21,"body":"worlds. It's like, like, what's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1673.16,"endTime":1677.21,"body":"three, it's like, classic, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1677.21,"endTime":1681.5,"body":"know, like, compiler design"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1677.21,"endTime":1681.5,"body":"curriculum, or some of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1681.53,"endTime":1684.68,"body":"better engineering schools are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1681.53,"endTime":1684.68,"body":"doing, like, preparing their"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1684.68,"endTime":1688.28,"body":"kids to go to like Google or,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1684.68,"endTime":1688.28,"body":"you know, like, really sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1688.31,"endTime":1691.22,"body":"distributed computing. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1688.31,"endTime":1691.22,"body":"that's incredibly advanced. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1691.22,"endTime":1694.25,"body":"it's a small subset of what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1691.22,"endTime":1694.25,"body":"people are going to do. Yeah."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1694.4,"endTime":1698.54,"body":"And then the, the, the only"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1694.4,"endTime":1698.54,"body":"other sort of discipline really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1698.54,"endTime":1703.43,"body":"is, is sort of the IT business"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1698.54,"endTime":1703.43,"body":"management, which is basically"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1703.82,"endTime":1707.42,"body":"90s, right, Oracle, and, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1703.82,"endTime":1707.42,"body":"know, and I look at the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1707.42,"endTime":1711.41,"body":"industrial engineering degrees,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1707.42,"endTime":1711.41,"body":"or some of the supply chain, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1711.41,"endTime":1714.5,"body":"they're all over operations"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1711.41,"endTime":1714.5,"body":"management. And, you know, some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1714.5,"endTime":1717.53,"body":"of them focus on Deming or some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1714.5,"endTime":1717.53,"body":"of them just take the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1717.71,"endTime":1722.33,"body":"aggregation of all these ideas"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1717.71,"endTime":1722.33,"body":"and, like operations research,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1722.33,"endTime":1726.29,"body":"but, you know, again, it wasn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1722.33,"endTime":1726.29,"body":"just Deming, right? There was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1726.32,"endTime":1729.53,"body":"like you said, Duran it was sure"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1726.32,"endTime":1729.53,"body":"there was there was a lot. It"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1729.53,"endTime":1735.32,"body":"was Bell Labs, it was Toyota."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1729.53,"endTime":1735.32,"body":"But the point is, like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1735.32,"endTime":1738.68,"body":"know, make me king for a day I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1735.32,"endTime":1738.68,"body":"would have you know, you have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1738.68,"endTime":1743.75,"body":"the E you have the IE right? Why"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1738.68,"endTime":1743.75,"body":"don't you have like an SC you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1743.75,"endTime":1747.74,"body":"know, software like that is it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1743.75,"endTime":1747.74,"body":"falls under the same like you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1747.74,"endTime":1749.99,"body":"take all the same classes that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1747.74,"endTime":1749.99,"body":"you take for industrial"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1749.99,"endTime":1755.45,"body":"engineering. Last year is all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1749.99,"endTime":1755.45,"body":"software composition are and we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1755.51,"endTime":1760.37,"body":"would you're right, we just are."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1755.51,"endTime":1760.37,"body":"We're not we're just not kids"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1760.37,"endTime":1762.71,"body":"get a lot of people I know in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1760.37,"endTime":1762.71,"body":"the Dallas community, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1762.71,"endTime":1768.35,"body":"they'll actually try to hire a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1762.71,"endTime":1768.35,"body":"supply chain. Sort of IE student"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1768.38,"endTime":1772.46,"body":"before they'll hire a computer"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1768.38,"endTime":1772.46,"body":"science student. Okay, yeah."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1772.7,"endTime":1776.12,"body":"You're more likely to have this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1772.7,"endTime":1776.12,"body":"kind of skills, the Agile the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1776.12,"endTime":1780.2,"body":"lean, yeah, than they would if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1776.12,"endTime":1780.2,"body":"they're sort of been doing like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1780.2,"endTime":1783.83,"body":"advanced, you know, sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1780.2,"endTime":1783.83,"body":"distributed computing or CAP"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1783.83,"endTime":1786.8,"body":"theorem, rasp whatever, ish"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1783.83,"endTime":1786.8,"body":"stuff right?"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1789.98,"endTime":1792.47,"body":"One of the things I"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1789.98,"endTime":1792.47,"body":"found is that when I introduced"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1793.22,"endTime":1797.48,"body":"this vitals for first time,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1793.22,"endTime":1797.48,"body":"people said oh, you're going to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1797.48,"endTime":1802.19,"body":"talk about software there. Well,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1797.48,"endTime":1802.19,"body":"actually, no agile didn't start"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1802.19,"endTime":1805.97,"body":"with software. Okay, so people"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1802.19,"endTime":1805.97,"body":"tend to think well agile"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1805.97,"endTime":1810.05,"body":"starting with a manifesto, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1805.97,"endTime":1810.05,"body":"hear someone say, well, well"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1810.05,"endTime":1813.2,"body":"actually, NASA put astronauts on"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1810.05,"endTime":1813.2,"body":"the moon with waterfall because"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1813.2,"endTime":1817.73,"body":"it came before the, the Agile"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1813.2,"endTime":1817.73,"body":"Manifesto. And actually, well,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1818.12,"endTime":1821.66,"body":"these are important bits of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1818.12,"endTime":1821.66,"body":"understanding of how, what what"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1821.66,"endTime":1825.32,"body":"Agile is, because there was so"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1821.66,"endTime":1825.32,"body":"much of agile in place before"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1825.32,"endTime":1830.75,"body":"the manifesto. But the Plan, Do"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1825.32,"endTime":1830.75,"body":"Study Act, I failed it. That's"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1830.75,"endTime":1833.6,"body":"why I talk about the history in"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1830.75,"endTime":1833.6,"body":"that way. Because I think it"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1833.6,"endTime":1837.95,"body":"gives people a deeper"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1833.6,"endTime":1837.95,"body":"understanding. The same with"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1837.95,"endTime":1840.98,"body":"Lean, I feel the need, I found"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1837.95,"endTime":1840.98,"body":"the need to introduce and say"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1840.98,"endTime":1844.43,"body":"what Lean is, because again,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1840.98,"endTime":1844.43,"body":"people think it's some kind of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1844.52,"endTime":1848.3,"body":"software theory. Whereas"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1844.52,"endTime":1848.3,"body":"actually, we all know it came"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1848.3,"endTime":1851.96,"body":"from Toyota. And in fact, it"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1848.3,"endTime":1851.96,"body":"these things aren't covered"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1851.96,"endTime":1856.52,"body":"under degree courses. And I"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":1851.96,"endTime":1856.52,"body":"think it's a bit of a problem."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1857.0,"endTime":1859.46,"body":"Let's try to do in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1857.0,"endTime":1859.46,"body":"my book, right, I really made my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1859.46,"endTime":1862.97,"body":"book more of a journey than a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1859.46,"endTime":1862.97,"body":"biography. I mean, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1862.97,"endTime":1866.09,"body":"it's my first sort of book that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1862.97,"endTime":1866.09,"body":"I've written all by myself,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1866.09,"endTime":1870.77,"body":"which, but so, you know, one of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1866.09,"endTime":1870.77,"body":"my best friends who was my first"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1870.77,"endTime":1873.92,"body":"reviewer of the book, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1870.77,"endTime":1873.92,"body":"I, you know, he told me, I had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1873.92,"endTime":1877.01,"body":"way too many stories, because my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1873.92,"endTime":1877.01,"body":"goal was to write Michael Lewis"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1877.01,"endTime":1882.47,"body":"version of the demi story, or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1877.01,"endTime":1882.47,"body":"the or the Bill Bryson. And I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1882.47,"endTime":1885.17,"body":"think I've gotten reasonably"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1882.47,"endTime":1885.17,"body":"close. But even this best friend"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1885.17,"endTime":1889.73,"body":"of mine would say, John, you're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1885.17,"endTime":1889.73,"body":"not Michael Lewis. Point taken."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1889.88,"endTime":1893.54,"body":"But what I tried to do is,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1889.88,"endTime":1893.54,"body":"somewhere along the way, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1893.54,"endTime":1900.47,"body":"realized the story needed to be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1893.54,"endTime":1900.47,"body":"about this man's journey of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1901.19,"endTime":1904.19,"body":"understanding profound"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1901.19,"endTime":1904.19,"body":"knowledge. Like, where did he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1904.19,"endTime":1907.64,"body":"get the pieces from? So like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1904.19,"endTime":1907.64,"body":"you know, you know, like, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1907.64,"endTime":1910.07,"body":"think you just mentioned"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1907.64,"endTime":1910.07,"body":"Ishikawa and I definitely want"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1910.07,"endTime":1913.52,"body":"to talk to you about him. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1910.07,"endTime":1913.52,"body":"there's so much more than just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1913.52,"endTime":1917.84,"body":"sort of the sort of Deming to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1913.52,"endTime":1917.84,"body":"Toyota to lean to agile, right?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1918.05,"endTime":1921.23,"body":"There's literally, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1918.05,"endTime":1921.23,"body":"pragmatism or epistemology,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1921.23,"endTime":1925.13,"body":"right, which is the core of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1921.23,"endTime":1925.13,"body":"their knowledge there is, there"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1925.13,"endTime":1927.47,"body":"is, you know, sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1925.13,"endTime":1927.47,"body":"operational definitions, which"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1927.47,"endTime":1931.4,"body":"I'd like to squeeze in, which"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1927.47,"endTime":1931.4,"body":"comes actually from, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1931.43,"endTime":1935.78,"body":"mainly from a physicist in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1931.43,"endTime":1935.78,"body":"physics, right. Right. And, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1935.78,"endTime":1939.2,"body":"know, and then you have, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1935.78,"endTime":1939.2,"body":"sort of what happened in Japan,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1939.47,"endTime":1943.19,"body":"you know, like in between Deming"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1939.47,"endTime":1943.19,"body":"and Toyota, right, like Ishikawa"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1943.64,"endTime":1948.08,"body":"to Gucci, right? Like all this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1943.64,"endTime":1948.08,"body":"stuff, right? Like, if I look at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1948.08,"endTime":1951.62,"body":"these college curriculums,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1948.08,"endTime":1951.62,"body":"they're like, my son's taking,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1951.65,"endTime":1954.47,"body":"he's in his sophomore year in a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1951.65,"endTime":1954.47,"body":"supply chain, you know, and he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1954.47,"endTime":1957.23,"body":"knows, he knows everything about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1954.47,"endTime":1957.23,"body":"Deming, and he's in his mass"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1957.23,"endTime":1960.59,"body":"lecture hall. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1957.23,"endTime":1960.59,"body":"he's out about, you know, five"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1960.59,"endTime":1963.95,"body":"or six weeks into this, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1960.59,"endTime":1963.95,"body":"know, supply chain one on one or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1963.95,"endTime":1968.03,"body":"whatever. And he called me up"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1963.95,"endTime":1968.03,"body":"that night dad, my professor"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1968.03,"endTime":1974.03,"body":"mentioned, Dr. Deming, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1968.03,"endTime":1974.03,"body":"did you say anything? And he's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1974.03,"endTime":1977.03,"body":"like, No, I was a lecture hall"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1974.03,"endTime":1977.03,"body":"dad, you know, so but, but I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1977.03,"endTime":1980.33,"body":"mean, like, I don't even know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1977.03,"endTime":1980.33,"body":"to the extent they really get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1980.69,"endTime":1985.04,"body":"the narrative. You know, the way"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1980.69,"endTime":1985.04,"body":"like you and I would think,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1985.07,"endTime":1989.51,"body":"okay, like, if they asked us,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1985.07,"endTime":1989.51,"body":"you know, hey, write, of course,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1989.51,"endTime":1992.36,"body":"that you'd need to know, because"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1989.51,"endTime":1992.36,"body":"everything you want to know, for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1992.36,"endTime":1995.21,"body":"sort of, you know, I'm assuming"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1992.36,"endTime":1995.21,"body":"that you, you'd be like, how do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1995.21,"endTime":2000.46,"body":"I prepare future testers. In a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1995.21,"endTime":2000.46,"body":"world where I could create,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2000.46,"endTime":2002.95,"body":"these are the things I would"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2000.46,"endTime":2002.95,"body":"teach him, I think those would"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2002.95,"endTime":2006.34,"body":"be the same. That would be a sim"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2002.95,"endTime":2006.34,"body":"curriculum that I would want to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2006.34,"endTime":2010.54,"body":"be part of like what I do from"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2006.34,"endTime":2010.54,"body":"sort of management theory, or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2010.54,"endTime":2015.46,"body":"DevOps or dev SEC ops or IT"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2010.54,"endTime":2015.46,"body":"risk, you know, put all that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2015.46,"endTime":2016.06,"body":"together."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2017.44,"endTime":2019.3,"body":"I think it's also"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2017.44,"endTime":2019.3,"body":"very interesting. One of the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2019.3,"endTime":2023.68,"body":"things I like about them, is"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2019.3,"endTime":2023.68,"body":"that it's not a big man theory"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2023.68,"endTime":2029.44,"body":"of history. He's not the Polian"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2023.68,"endTime":2029.44,"body":"of quality by himself, actually."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2029.56,"endTime":2033.88,"body":"And I, I think the fact that he"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2029.56,"endTime":2033.88,"body":"brought brings in ideas from"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2033.88,"endTime":2039.04,"body":"different people, he refers to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2033.88,"endTime":2039.04,"body":"Shewhart, as the master of this,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2039.1,"endTime":2044.38,"body":"actually, there, there is, I"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2039.1,"endTime":2044.38,"body":"think, an element of humility in"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2044.38,"endTime":2049.18,"body":"that, and I think that's good"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2044.38,"endTime":2049.18,"body":"for us all. And that the work"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2049.18,"endTime":2051.88,"body":"you've done in looking at the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2049.18,"endTime":2051.88,"body":"background or all the different"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2051.88,"endTime":2054.31,"body":"ideas, I think it's absolutely"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2051.88,"endTime":2054.31,"body":"fascinating."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2055.24,"endTime":2057.49,"body":"No, I love that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2055.24,"endTime":2057.49,"body":"quote, he's not the Napoleon. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2057.49,"endTime":2059.8,"body":"mean, one of the things I you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2057.49,"endTime":2059.8,"body":"know, I quickly came to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2059.8,"endTime":2063.07,"body":"conclusion, especially in all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2059.8,"endTime":2063.07,"body":"the things that happened, Japan,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2063.07,"endTime":2067.09,"body":"the complexity of the people who"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2063.07,"endTime":2067.09,"body":"went in first before damming how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2067.09,"endTime":2072.28,"body":"Deming wound up there when Japan"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2067.09,"endTime":2072.28,"body":"came in, what did use like Isha"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2072.28,"endTime":2075.7,"body":"cower, and then what happened"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2072.28,"endTime":2075.7,"body":"there you know, what was going"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2075.7,"endTime":2078.64,"body":"on with statistics before"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2075.7,"endTime":2078.64,"body":"damning got there, right, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2079.0,"endTime":2083.29,"body":"and so the first thing like I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2079.0,"endTime":2083.29,"body":"wanted to be like crystal clear"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2083.29,"endTime":2087.28,"body":"in my book, which was, Deming"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2083.29,"endTime":2087.28,"body":"did not create the miracle in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2087.28,"endTime":2093.1,"body":"Japan. Japan created the miracle"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2087.28,"endTime":2093.1,"body":"in Japan, right? Yes, yes."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2093.1,"endTime":2096.34,"body":"That's why I love you like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2093.1,"endTime":2096.34,"body":"Deming is not the Napoleon and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2096.34,"endTime":2102.13,"body":"he did. He was incredibly"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2096.34,"endTime":2102.13,"body":"humble, you know? On this, just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2102.13,"endTime":2105.13,"body":"everything you know. Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2102.13,"endTime":2105.13,"body":"mean, it's just story after"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2105.13,"endTime":2110.17,"body":"story of like, it's why the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2105.13,"endTime":2110.17,"body":"Japanese loved him. Right? Came"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2110.17,"endTime":2113.59,"body":"in this gentle giant that was so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2110.17,"endTime":2113.59,"body":"wanted to understand their"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2113.59,"endTime":2118.69,"body":"culture. He said that the the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2113.59,"endTime":2118.69,"body":"juice, the statisticians, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2118.72,"endTime":2123.64,"body":"engineers were the best students"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2118.72,"endTime":2123.64,"body":"he ever had. Wow. So he just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2123.67,"endTime":2126.4,"body":"like they loved him. And he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2123.67,"endTime":2126.4,"body":"loved them. You know, it was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2126.4,"endTime":2131.35,"body":"just so you said, I love that."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2126.4,"endTime":2131.35,"body":"You know, I've been really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2131.35,"endTime":2134.59,"body":"trying to go back and build"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2131.35,"endTime":2134.59,"body":"this, like, interesting sort of,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2135.1,"endTime":2138.4,"body":"you know, sort of, like graphic"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2135.1,"endTime":2138.4,"body":"timeline of all the influences"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2138.4,"endTime":2144.91,"body":"and Isha College. Such a deep"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2138.4,"endTime":2144.91,"body":"role in. So, so it sounds like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2144.91,"endTime":2147.97,"body":"you've done some research on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2144.91,"endTime":2147.97,"body":"Ishikawa."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2148.99,"endTime":2151.87,"body":"Yeah, I came across"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2148.99,"endTime":2151.87,"body":"it, because I was looking at"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2151.9,"endTime":2155.44,"body":"different ways to carry out root"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2151.9,"endTime":2155.44,"body":"cause analysis. Okay. And I"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2155.44,"endTime":2159.34,"body":"discovered the Ishikawa"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2155.44,"endTime":2159.34,"body":"diagrams. And I thought they"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2159.34,"endTime":2164.35,"body":"were brilliant. Because you can"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2159.34,"endTime":2164.35,"body":"describe so much on one piece of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2164.35,"endTime":2168.1,"body":"a4, you could work at them as a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2164.35,"endTime":2168.1,"body":"group, it will contribute to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2168.1,"endTime":2172.21,"body":"them. And they will all go"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2168.1,"endTime":2172.21,"body":"online. Every app has got some"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2172.21,"endTime":2175.21,"body":"kind of way of creating an"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2172.21,"endTime":2175.21,"body":"Ishikawa diagram. So they are"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2175.21,"endTime":2179.08,"body":"brilliant. And I became"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2175.21,"endTime":2179.08,"body":"interested in through that. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2179.11,"endTime":2182.17,"body":"I recently read one of his"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2179.11,"endTime":2182.17,"body":"books, which I'm going to put"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2182.17,"endTime":2187.66,"body":"put a short review of it a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2182.17,"endTime":2187.66,"body":"couple of weeks. Stick. Okay,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2187.84,"endTime":2192.46,"body":"this code shapes engineers."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2187.84,"endTime":2192.46,"body":"That's how we did that come from"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2192.46,"endTime":2198.58,"body":"that. Yeah, there was just like,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2192.46,"endTime":2198.58,"body":"Okay, this is lots of really"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2198.58,"endTime":2201.58,"body":"profound stuff. And the way he"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2198.58,"endTime":2201.58,"body":"changed Plan, Do Study Act to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2201.58,"endTime":2205.69,"body":"Plan Do Check Act. I understand"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2201.58,"endTime":2205.69,"body":"Deming didn't like the chain set"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2205.69,"endTime":2208.66,"body":"of study, I think discussion"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2205.69,"endTime":2208.66,"body":"around that's quite interesting,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2208.66,"endTime":2211.6,"body":"I think for us as testers, if"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2208.66,"endTime":2211.6,"body":"you're working on a plan, do"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2211.6,"endTime":2215.14,"body":"study act, study makes far more"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2211.6,"endTime":2215.14,"body":"sense. Because sometimes you can"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2215.14,"endTime":2217.63,"body":"feel pressured, I'm just going"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2215.14,"endTime":2217.63,"body":"to check this and then move on."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2217.63,"endTime":2220.45,"body":"Well, actually, you don't want"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2217.63,"endTime":2220.45,"body":"to, you want to study it. But it"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2220.45,"endTime":2222.7,"body":"was also interesting, as I"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2220.45,"endTime":2222.7,"body":"hadn't realized, as he"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2222.7,"endTime":2231.28,"body":"subdivided, do plan into two"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2222.7,"endTime":2231.28,"body":"separate parts. And that makes"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2231.4,"endTime":2233.86,"body":"that makes you think a little"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2231.4,"endTime":2233.86,"body":"bit more than I could because"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2233.86,"endTime":2239.05,"body":"this they are about education"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2233.86,"endTime":2239.05,"body":"and training, thinking what"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2239.05,"endTime":2241.42,"body":"education and training we can"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2239.05,"endTime":2241.42,"body":"you leave when you do planning,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2241.69,"endTime":2245.02,"body":"and then doing the education and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2241.69,"endTime":2245.02,"body":"training when you do part?"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2245.32,"endTime":2251.05,"body":"Actually, that's quite useful."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2245.32,"endTime":2251.05,"body":"And it does emphasize something"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2251.05,"endTime":2253.54,"body":"that can sometimes be in a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2251.05,"endTime":2253.54,"body":"pressured situation be"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2253.54,"endTime":2256.63,"body":"overlooked the need for"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2253.54,"endTime":2256.63,"body":"education and training, the need"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2256.63,"endTime":2261.07,"body":"for learning. And so I thought"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2256.63,"endTime":2261.07,"body":"that that was interesting as"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2261.07,"endTime":2261.43,"body":"well."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2262.33,"endTime":2264.55,"body":"Don't you know that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2262.33,"endTime":2264.55,"body":"one of the things I think I've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2264.55,"endTime":2271.57,"body":"conclusion, so Devaney was very"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2264.55,"endTime":2271.57,"body":"words mattered to him, like, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2271.57,"endTime":2275.02,"body":"so, you know, the one of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2271.57,"endTime":2275.02,"body":"things I wanted to go back, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2275.02,"endTime":2279.58,"body":"I wanted to really understand"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2275.02,"endTime":2279.58,"body":"why he changed the seed, to ash"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2279.58,"endTime":2283.27,"body":"right. And I think he felt that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2279.58,"endTime":2283.27,"body":"the sort of check was sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2283.3,"endTime":2288.25,"body":"one it was it sort of, maybe"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2283.3,"endTime":2288.25,"body":"implied that there wasn't sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2288.25,"endTime":2294.1,"body":"of a cycle. It also implied sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2288.25,"endTime":2294.1,"body":"of this, like, sort of, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2294.1,"endTime":2297.46,"body":"know, like stopping point, or I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2294.1,"endTime":2297.46,"body":"would say, a deterministic,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2297.46,"endTime":2301.54,"body":"like, yes or no, right, which is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2297.46,"endTime":2301.54,"body":"difficult to like, the way he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2301.54,"endTime":2305.35,"body":"thinks, especially being sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2301.54,"endTime":2305.35,"body":"born in a quantum physics world."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2305.95,"endTime":2308.35,"body":"But I think the other thing I've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2305.95,"endTime":2308.35,"body":"realized, because it's the same"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2308.35,"endTime":2311.8,"body":"thing with when he changed,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2308.35,"endTime":2311.8,"body":"like, chance and assignable"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2311.83,"endTime":2316.99,"body":"cause to, to basically, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2311.83,"endTime":2316.99,"body":"know, common and special or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2316.99,"endTime":2322.36,"body":"uncommon, and it's really common"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2316.99,"endTime":2322.36,"body":"in special course, right. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2322.36,"endTime":2325.63,"body":"think part of that, too, was he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2322.36,"endTime":2325.63,"body":"wanted to make sure words"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2325.63,"endTime":2328.63,"body":"mattered. But he also"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2325.63,"endTime":2328.63,"body":"understood, there was a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2328.63,"endTime":2333.28,"body":"difference between the culture"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2328.63,"endTime":2333.28,"body":"of how a word was interpreted"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2333.28,"endTime":2337.75,"body":"particularly in a very intrinsic"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2333.28,"endTime":2337.75,"body":"culture, right. And I read"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2337.75,"endTime":2339.76,"body":"something the other day, because"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2337.75,"endTime":2339.76,"body":"I was coming back and I was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2339.76,"endTime":2342.94,"body":"looking at Toyota owners five"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2339.76,"endTime":2342.94,"body":"why's and he used your there's a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2342.94,"endTime":2345.61,"body":"lot of pushback today about root"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2342.94,"endTime":2345.61,"body":"cause, in fact, I just did a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2345.61,"endTime":2350.11,"body":"podcast with seven, school"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2345.61,"endTime":2350.11,"body":"service management daughter now,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2350.62,"endTime":2354.13,"body":"she wanted to ask me why, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2350.62,"endTime":2354.13,"body":"know, why did the young kids or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2354.13,"endTime":2357.58,"body":"the new kids are all against"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2354.13,"endTime":2357.58,"body":"records? And so, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2357.58,"endTime":2361.3,"body":"gave her my explanation, and you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2357.58,"endTime":2361.3,"body":"know, why I think people have,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2361.78,"endTime":2365.35,"body":"you know, feelings against it."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2361.78,"endTime":2365.35,"body":"But I went back and I saw a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2365.35,"endTime":2368.11,"body":"Toyota owners, you know, he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2365.35,"endTime":2368.11,"body":"talks about root cause and the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2368.11,"endTime":2369.34,"body":"five ways, right, or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2371.08,"endTime":2377.56,"body":"whatever disorder article about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2371.08,"endTime":2377.56,"body":"how the, in very intrinsic"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2377.56,"endTime":2385.36,"body":"culture, you know, that sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2377.56,"endTime":2385.36,"body":"a root cause is less corrosive,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2385.69,"endTime":2388.6,"body":"because, you know, let's face"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2385.69,"endTime":2388.6,"body":"it, most of the people who"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2388.6,"endTime":2392.29,"body":"worked at somewhere like Toyota"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2388.6,"endTime":2392.29,"body":"felt they were they were"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2392.29,"endTime":2396.61,"body":"empowering the company. So they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2392.29,"endTime":2396.61,"body":"didn't get the sort of a blame"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2396.61,"endTime":2402.1,"body":"or like, okay, way the sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2396.61,"endTime":2402.1,"body":"Western culture Has Yeah. So I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2402.1,"endTime":2405.55,"body":"think I think it might here's my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2402.1,"endTime":2405.55,"body":"sort of long winded point is, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2405.55,"endTime":2409.24,"body":"think Deming because he spent so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2405.55,"endTime":2409.24,"body":"much time in that immersed"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2409.24,"endTime":2412.27,"body":"himself the culture, not just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2409.24,"endTime":2412.27,"body":"the training, like he was a big"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2412.27,"endTime":2415.93,"body":"fan of kabuki theater. I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2412.27,"endTime":2415.93,"body":"he literally spent a lot of time"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2415.93,"endTime":2420.46,"body":"immersed into that culture. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2415.93,"endTime":2420.46,"body":"think he also more than just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2420.46,"endTime":2424.51,"body":"words mattered. I think he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2420.46,"endTime":2424.51,"body":"understood the cultural"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2424.51,"endTime":2430.51,"body":"references, the differences were"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2424.51,"endTime":2430.51,"body":"PDCA probably works well, in its"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2430.51,"endTime":2435.49,"body":"interpretation, Japan, but in a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2430.51,"endTime":2435.49,"body":"Western culture, could have the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2435.49,"endTime":2439.27,"body":"bit wrong meaning, and I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2435.49,"endTime":2439.27,"body":"that that with assignable and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2439.27,"endTime":2442.42,"body":"chance, you know, I think he you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2439.27,"endTime":2442.42,"body":"know, so So I think there's two"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2442.42,"endTime":2446.56,"body":"levels, one, he really felt you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2442.42,"endTime":2446.56,"body":"had to have the right words. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2446.56,"endTime":2452.08,"body":"then he understood sort of more"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2446.56,"endTime":2452.08,"body":"than most, how the cultural"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2452.08,"endTime":2456.43,"body":"difference of a word might"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2452.08,"endTime":2456.43,"body":"mutate the interpretation."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2458.65,"endTime":2460.87,"body":"Essentially, it's"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2458.65,"endTime":2460.87,"body":"one of the things I'm just"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2460.87,"endTime":2463.78,"body":"reading the Ishikawa he writes"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2460.87,"endTime":2463.78,"body":"about Deming, and he says,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2464.44,"endTime":2468.43,"body":"Deming was a good friend of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2464.44,"endTime":2468.43,"body":"Japan, he really knew Japan. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2468.43,"endTime":2472.81,"body":"actually, that's, that's a very"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2468.43,"endTime":2472.81,"body":"powerful thing for him to said,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2473.62,"endTime":2478.0,"body":"no, they, if you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2473.62,"endTime":2478.0,"body":"read, his secretary wrote a book"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2478.0,"endTime":2481.39,"body":"on seesaw care, I forget the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2478.0,"endTime":2481.39,"body":"name, but the name but the page"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2481.42,"endTime":2485.08,"body":"takes all his notes. And she"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2481.42,"endTime":2485.08,"body":"published it. And it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2485.08,"endTime":2487.84,"body":"basically, you know, like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2485.08,"endTime":2487.84,"body":"get the, like, the real sense"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2487.84,"endTime":2491.71,"body":"of, you know, how he'd be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2487.84,"endTime":2491.71,"body":"exciting to see somebody for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2491.8,"endTime":2496.3,"body":"Saki, or you know, and like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2491.8,"endTime":2496.3,"body":"know, like, he loves, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2496.3,"endTime":2498.58,"body":"you can read it, but then when"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2496.3,"endTime":2498.58,"body":"you read his notes, you realize"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2498.58,"endTime":2502.36,"body":"you just love to coach, let's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2498.58,"endTime":2502.36,"body":"end with. So I've been really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2502.36,"endTime":2506.11,"body":"digging into the notion of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2502.36,"endTime":2506.11,"body":"operational definitions and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2506.44,"endTime":2510.04,"body":"definition. And I, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2506.44,"endTime":2510.04,"body":"it's again, that sort of peeling"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2510.04,"endTime":2513.85,"body":"the onion with Deming when you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2510.04,"endTime":2513.85,"body":"read like New Economics, and he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2513.85,"endTime":2517.12,"body":"mentions it a bunch of times,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2513.85,"endTime":2517.12,"body":"and you sort of see it spread"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2517.12,"endTime":2519.31,"body":"throughout the book. And you're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2517.12,"endTime":2519.31,"body":"like, Yeah, this is important."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2519.55,"endTime":2522.91,"body":"And at some point, for me, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2519.55,"endTime":2522.91,"body":"a lot of things with Deming, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2522.91,"endTime":2526.45,"body":"light bulb went off, and like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2522.91,"endTime":2526.45,"body":"Oh, now I understand what he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2526.45,"endTime":2531.34,"body":"talking about in chapter two."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2526.45,"endTime":2531.34,"body":"And how that is, and literally,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2531.34,"endTime":2534.61,"body":"I just did a presentation this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2531.34,"endTime":2534.61,"body":"morning to the door folk about,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2534.82,"endTime":2539.32,"body":"you know, the door metrics, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2534.82,"endTime":2539.32,"body":"how, you know, we don't have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2539.32,"endTime":2543.64,"body":"clear operational definitions"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2539.32,"endTime":2543.64,"body":"for like, lead time. And as an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2543.64,"endTime":2549.07,"body":"industry, we really need to sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2543.64,"endTime":2549.07,"body":"of do better and follow hats or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2549.07,"endTime":2553.3,"body":"some of the other disciplines"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2549.07,"endTime":2553.3,"body":"like, nuclear. So what are your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2553.3,"endTime":2556.06,"body":"thoughts about operational"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2553.3,"endTime":2556.06,"body":"definitions or definition,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2556.839,"endTime":2558.909,"body":"that they're a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2556.839,"endTime":2558.909,"body":"great thing to test us, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2558.909,"endTime":2561.759,"body":"know, that it gives us a way of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2558.909,"endTime":2561.759,"body":"talking about something that we"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2561.759,"endTime":2564.879,"body":"do, because if we go into"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2561.759,"endTime":2564.879,"body":"planning, we want to have the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2564.879,"endTime":2567.699,"body":"idea of operational definitions"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2564.879,"endTime":2567.699,"body":"at the back of our mind or at"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2567.699,"endTime":2571.929,"body":"the front of our mind with it,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2567.699,"endTime":2571.929,"body":"because we've all been to a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2571.929,"endTime":2576.099,"body":"planning meeting where somebody"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2571.929,"endTime":2576.099,"body":"we go to make a better, whatever"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2576.099,"endTime":2582.669,"body":"it is faster, more easy to use."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2576.099,"endTime":2582.669,"body":"And if one says yes, and but"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2582.669,"endTime":2586.809,"body":"there's a testicle civil,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2582.669,"endTime":2586.809,"body":"actually, how do we know? And"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2587.739,"endTime":2591.609,"body":"they've been able to articulate"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2587.739,"endTime":2591.609,"body":"that. And it's not just us"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2591.609,"endTime":2594.789,"body":"saying it, then actually, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2591.609,"endTime":2594.789,"body":"know, there was a sky Deming,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2594.789,"endTime":2598.089,"body":"and he said, Actually, we want"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2594.789,"endTime":2598.089,"body":"to have some criteria and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2598.659,"endTime":2603.129,"body":"sampling. Okay. So actually,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2598.659,"endTime":2603.129,"body":"really, really, really very"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2603.129,"endTime":2607.779,"body":"useful. I always included in my"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2603.129,"endTime":2607.779,"body":"talks, because I think testers"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2607.779,"endTime":2609.519,"body":"find that particularly useful,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2610.18,"endTime":2612.58,"body":"ya know, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2610.18,"endTime":2612.58,"body":"feedback I got from the dark, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2612.58,"endTime":2614.59,"body":"mean, I thought like, it was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2612.58,"endTime":2614.59,"body":"going to be dangerous going into"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2614.59,"endTime":2619.6,"body":"the lion's den and, and sort of,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2614.59,"endTime":2619.6,"body":"like insinuating that, like the,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2619.63,"endTime":2622.99,"body":"you know, and everybody was real"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2619.63,"endTime":2622.99,"body":"positive. Do you find that most"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2622.99,"endTime":2626.8,"body":"people in the testing community"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2622.99,"endTime":2626.8,"body":"don't really, I mean, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2626.8,"endTime":2629.83,"body":"this is my sort of bug about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2626.8,"endTime":2629.83,"body":"sort of DevOps in general."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2629.83,"endTime":2632.74,"body":"Certainly, Dora, and, and again,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2629.83,"endTime":2632.74,"body":"I think for anybody listening, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2632.74,"endTime":2636.01,"body":"think door, you know, what,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2632.74,"endTime":2636.01,"body":"Nicole, and jazz, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2636.97,"endTime":2640.3,"body":"tastic, for industry?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2636.97,"endTime":2640.3,"body":"Unquestionably, yeah. Yeah. It's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2640.3,"endTime":2644.38,"body":"sort of 10 years later, and now"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2640.3,"endTime":2644.38,"body":"like, let's really act like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2644.38,"endTime":2648.7,"body":"engineers, do you find and so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2644.38,"endTime":2648.7,"body":"but my sort of thing is we're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2648.7,"endTime":2651.7,"body":"not right, we're using these"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2648.7,"endTime":2651.7,"body":"metrics. And when we're sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2651.97,"endTime":2654.58,"body":"not having clear operational"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2651.97,"endTime":2654.58,"body":"definition, do you find that in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2654.58,"endTime":2658.54,"body":"testing? That's the case to or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2654.58,"endTime":2658.54,"body":"most people aren't being clear?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2658.99,"endTime":2662.08,"body":"Or do you find that people tend"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2658.99,"endTime":2662.08,"body":"to be better at that, in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2662.08,"endTime":2662.62,"body":"general?"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2663.58,"endTime":2667.09,"body":"I think testers"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2663.58,"endTime":2667.09,"body":"feel that one of our roles is to"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2667.09,"endTime":2671.95,"body":"try and make things explicit."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2667.09,"endTime":2671.95,"body":"Well, one of the things I admire"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2671.95,"endTime":2676.57,"body":"about developers is how they"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2671.95,"endTime":2676.57,"body":"will take a user story or a spec"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2676.57,"endTime":2679.57,"body":"that's got lots of implicit"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2676.57,"endTime":2679.57,"body":"requirements in it, and they'll"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2679.66,"endTime":2682.69,"body":"then admire it and they'll get"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2679.66,"endTime":2682.69,"body":"it, they'll understand it and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2682.69,"endTime":2686.8,"body":"they'll produce what's expected"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2682.69,"endTime":2686.8,"body":"of them. Whereas a tester your"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2686.8,"endTime":2689.59,"body":"sickness, actually, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2686.8,"endTime":2689.59,"body":"quite sure what that means. That"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2689.59,"endTime":2692.8,"body":"can be one thing or it could"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2689.59,"endTime":2692.8,"body":"have been something else. Are we"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2692.8,"endTime":2695.98,"body":"assuming that this is this has"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2692.8,"endTime":2695.98,"body":"been done before we do that and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2696.13,"endTime":2700.81,"body":"having those questions? Does"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2696.13,"endTime":2700.81,"body":"save work later. down the line."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2700.84,"endTime":2705.34,"body":"So I think that this is still an"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2700.84,"endTime":2705.34,"body":"issue, I would have said that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2705.37,"endTime":2707.56,"body":"the development community,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2705.37,"endTime":2707.56,"body":"generally I would have thought"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2707.56,"endTime":2711.73,"body":"this is still an issue, testers"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2707.56,"endTime":2711.73,"body":"are a part of that community. So"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2711.97,"endTime":2714.07,"body":"I think operational definitions"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2711.97,"endTime":2714.07,"body":"are really useful."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2714.28,"endTime":2717.52,"body":"I really would like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2714.28,"endTime":2717.52,"body":"to sort of see it really sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2717.52,"endTime":2720.58,"body":"brought to the forefront on a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2717.52,"endTime":2720.58,"body":"lot of our sort of DevOps dev"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2720.58,"endTime":2724.66,"body":"SEC ops and IT risk"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2720.58,"endTime":2724.66,"body":"conversations. They would treat"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2724.66,"endTime":2727.06,"body":"me sort of, maybe I'll ask this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2724.66,"endTime":2727.06,"body":"question. It's been great."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2727.06,"endTime":2730.51,"body":"Actually, I've been really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2727.06,"endTime":2730.51,"body":"enjoying this. You know, one of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2730.51,"endTime":2732.76,"body":"the guys that work with Bill"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2730.51,"endTime":2732.76,"body":"Benson, you know, and he's, he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2732.76,"endTime":2735.07,"body":"had an operations research"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2732.76,"endTime":2735.07,"body":"background. And then he did a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2735.07,"endTime":2738.01,"body":"lot of software development"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2735.07,"endTime":2738.01,"body":"architecture at Red Hat with me,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2738.01,"endTime":2741.37,"body":"and now we're working together"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2738.01,"endTime":2741.37,"body":"on some sort of automated"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2741.37,"endTime":2744.76,"body":"governance stuff. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2741.37,"endTime":2744.76,"body":"I share my knowledge of learning"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2744.76,"endTime":2747.46,"body":"a Dami. He shares his research"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2744.76,"endTime":2747.46,"body":"and, you know, one of the things"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2747.46,"endTime":2751.6,"body":"I think we think, is an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2747.46,"endTime":2751.6,"body":"interesting concept is in, in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2751.6,"endTime":2757.06,"body":"software, we we focus on on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2751.6,"endTime":2757.06,"body":"requirements. But in other"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2757.06,"endTime":2761.95,"body":"disciplines, there's more focus"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2757.06,"endTime":2761.95,"body":"on specification. So I think, is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2761.95,"endTime":2764.98,"body":"an interesting conversation"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2761.95,"endTime":2764.98,"body":"probably to have about the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2764.98,"endTime":2768.31,"body":"difference between sort of a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2764.98,"endTime":2768.31,"body":"requirement and a specification"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2768.31,"endTime":2770.83,"body":"and software delivery. I don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2768.31,"endTime":2770.83,"body":"know if"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2772.57,"endTime":2774.82,"body":"it's actually I"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2772.57,"endTime":2774.82,"body":"have not been part of that"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2774.85,"endTime":2778.51,"body":"discussion. Actually. I haven't"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2774.85,"endTime":2778.51,"body":"seen that. It could be because"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2778.51,"endTime":2783.25,"body":"I've worked largely in startups,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2778.51,"endTime":2783.25,"body":"and we tend to use user stories."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2784.09,"endTime":2786.82,"body":"I'd haven't gotten the large"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2784.09,"endTime":2786.82,"body":"documents, which I'd imagine"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2786.82,"endTime":2792.01,"body":"you've got elsewhere. But yeah,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2786.82,"endTime":2792.01,"body":"that would be a different, I can"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2792.01,"endTime":2796.93,"body":"see that there can be there's a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2792.01,"endTime":2796.93,"body":"difference in meaning. But so we"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2797.2,"endTime":2800.14,"body":"tend to think, is this user"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2797.2,"endTime":2800.14,"body":"story adequate? Have I got"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2800.14,"endTime":2805.39,"body":"enough points? What about the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2800.14,"endTime":2805.39,"body":"acceptance criteria? And the"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2805.39,"endTime":2809.62,"body":"discussions based around that? I"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2805.39,"endTime":2809.62,"body":"think seeing this, this is what"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2809.62,"endTime":2811.57,"body":"you're suggesting, if you'd see"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2809.62,"endTime":2811.57,"body":"these are stories of"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2811.57,"endTime":2815.59,"body":"specification, and they mix up"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2811.57,"endTime":2815.59,"body":"to requirements. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2816.13,"endTime":2818.47,"body":"there's a boundary"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2816.13,"endTime":2818.47,"body":"between sort of creative"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2818.47,"endTime":2821.92,"body":"ideation and sort of rote"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2818.47,"endTime":2821.92,"body":"manufacturing mentality, right."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2821.92,"endTime":2824.38,"body":"So I like I don't really know"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2821.92,"endTime":2824.38,"body":"what the right balance and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2824.38,"endTime":2828.67,"body":"answer is there. Right. I do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2824.38,"endTime":2828.67,"body":"believe that we do fall more on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2828.7,"endTime":2835.03,"body":"sort of the ideation and the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2828.7,"endTime":2835.03,"body":"knowledge creation, which, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2835.03,"endTime":2840.58,"body":"know, just I mean, yeah. And but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2835.03,"endTime":2840.58,"body":"maybe a little more spotlight on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2840.58,"endTime":2844.21,"body":"the notion of, you know, which"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2840.58,"endTime":2844.21,"body":"brings in the variance and to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2844.21,"endTime":2847.81,"body":"your point, like, again, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2844.21,"endTime":2847.81,"body":"know, what, if you could be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2847.81,"endTime":2852.37,"body":"better at sort of go no, go for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2847.81,"endTime":2852.37,"body":"acceptance testing, and you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2852.37,"endTime":2856.06,"body":"could use more stuff? I don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2852.37,"endTime":2856.06,"body":"know. I mean, it literally read"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2856.06,"endTime":2858.34,"body":"lately. It's just me and Bill,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2856.06,"endTime":2858.34,"body":"having this sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2858.34,"endTime":2860.29,"body":"conversation, we're going to try"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2858.34,"endTime":2860.29,"body":"to write about it a little bit"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2860.29,"endTime":2862.99,"body":"more. But I was trying to since"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2860.29,"endTime":2862.99,"body":"when you brought up the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2862.99,"endTime":2865.81,"body":"acceptance testing and the part"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2862.99,"endTime":2865.81,"body":"of testing, it just made me"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2865.81,"endTime":2873.58,"body":"think about questions. So. So to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2865.81,"endTime":2873.58,"body":"be determined. Yeah. Well, Mike,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2873.58,"endTime":2876.31,"body":"this has been fantastic. How do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2873.58,"endTime":2876.31,"body":"people find you?"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2877.45,"endTime":2883.24,"body":"Find me on best on"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2877.45,"endTime":2883.24,"body":"Twitter, where I'm at a test and"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2883.24,"endTime":2889.39,"body":"analysis firm, your LinkedIn,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2883.24,"endTime":2889.39,"body":"I'm Mike Harris. I've got a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2889.39,"endTime":2894.13,"body":"blog, which is tested analysis,"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2889.39,"endTime":2894.13,"body":"Wordpress, so that the right"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2894.13,"endTime":2896.44,"body":"people join it. So thank you"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2894.13,"endTime":2896.44,"body":"very much."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2896.739,"endTime":2898.869,"body":"Yeah, put up put"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2896.739,"endTime":2898.869,"body":"all the links in the show notes."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2898.869,"endTime":2901.839,"body":"And it was good. It's good. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2898.869,"endTime":2901.839,"body":"know, we've been trying to set"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2901.839,"endTime":2904.539,"body":"this up for a little bit while"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2901.839,"endTime":2904.539,"body":"now I know we're, I'm sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2904.539,"endTime":2907.359,"body":"loving all these sort of fellow"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2904.539,"endTime":2907.359,"body":"DevOps travelers, you know, that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2907.359,"endTime":2910.209,"body":"we're sort of. We're, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2907.359,"endTime":2910.209,"body":"we're running into each other a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2910.209,"endTime":2913.959,"body":"lot on LinkedIn and stuff, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2910.209,"endTime":2913.959,"body":"it's just a lot of fun. Well,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2913.959,"endTime":2915.699,"body":"good. Well, thank you, sir."},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2916.09,"endTime":2918.31,"body":"Great. Okay. Thank"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2916.09,"endTime":2918.31,"body":"you very much. Let's have a"},{"speaker":"Mike Harris","startTime":2918.31,"endTime":2919.72,"body":"conversation. All right."}]}