{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2.159,"endTime":4.109,"body":"Hey, this is John"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2.159,"endTime":4.109,"body":"Willis again, and we've got"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4.109,"endTime":7.769,"body":"another episode of the profound"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":4.109,"endTime":7.769,"body":"Deming podcast have a guest that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":7.769,"endTime":12.569,"body":"I've admired for a while now."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":7.769,"endTime":12.569,"body":"gotten to see her at RSA"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":12.569,"endTime":17.159,"body":"conferences, speaking and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":12.569,"endTime":17.159,"body":"DevStack ops. And, Tracy, do you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":17.159,"endTime":20.369,"body":"want to go ahead and introduce"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":17.159,"endTime":20.369,"body":"yourself? You betcha. Thank you."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":20.369,"endTime":23.159,"body":"First of all, for inviting me,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":20.369,"endTime":23.159,"body":"we've had a hoot talking on a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":23.159,"endTime":26.159,"body":"couple of other panels and other"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":23.159,"endTime":26.159,"body":"things. So it's, I was really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":26.159,"endTime":29.459,"body":"excited, because it's just you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":26.159,"endTime":29.459,"body":"and me right now. Let's see"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":29.459,"endTime":33.479,"body":"background a couple of decades"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":29.459,"endTime":33.479,"body":"as software architect engineer,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":33.659,"endTime":37.589,"body":"I keep my hands dirty in the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":33.659,"endTime":37.589,"body":"code, I subscribe to his, uh,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":37.589,"endTime":41.579,"body":"Greg llopis approach to being"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":37.589,"endTime":41.579,"body":"the elevator architect, talk to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":41.579,"endTime":44.519,"body":"the boardroom, talk to the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":41.579,"endTime":44.519,"body":"engine room, or talk to the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":44.519,"endTime":47.489,"body":"boiler room, whatever you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":44.519,"endTime":47.489,"body":"prefer. I spent a lot of my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":47.489,"endTime":51.569,"body":"time, especially over the last"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":47.489,"endTime":51.569,"body":"nine years, eight years, nine"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":51.569,"endTime":55.049,"body":"years, focusing on the federal"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":51.569,"endTime":55.049,"body":"government, but spent a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":55.049,"endTime":57.479,"body":"time before that with with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":55.049,"endTime":57.479,"body":"commercial state and local"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":57.479,"endTime":60.239,"body":"governments, some international"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":57.479,"endTime":60.239,"body":"governments. So definitely"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":60.239,"endTime":62.399,"body":"looking at big problems more"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":60.239,"endTime":62.399,"body":"recently."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":63.72,"endTime":67.05,"body":"Brilliant, but ya know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":63.72,"endTime":67.05,"body":"noticed you've been in this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":67.05,"endTime":70.02,"body":"business for a while, though,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":67.05,"endTime":70.02,"body":"you know, I've been in little"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":70.02,"endTime":73.56,"body":"longer than you, I think. Just a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":70.02,"endTime":73.56,"body":"good thing, right. Just a little"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":73.56,"endTime":77.88,"body":"bit. Just a little more on the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":73.56,"endTime":77.88,"body":"age thing for me. Tell me Tell"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":77.88,"endTime":79.86,"body":"us about mitre. Yeah, I you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":77.88,"endTime":79.86,"body":"know, it's one of the things"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":79.86,"endTime":80.73,"body":"that was interesting."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":81.96,"endTime":85.29,"body":"That, you know, not being a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":81.96,"endTime":85.29,"body":"security professional having"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":85.32,"endTime":85.77,"body":"sort of,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":86.79,"endTime":89.91,"body":"I think, you know, I've told"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":86.79,"endTime":89.91,"body":"some people my story, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":89.91,"endTime":94.2,"body":"probably the only reason I even"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":89.91,"endTime":94.2,"body":"pretend to sound like I don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":94.2,"endTime":98.37,"body":"talk about security is because"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":94.2,"endTime":98.37,"body":"of Shannon leads and Josh Corman"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":98.88,"endTime":101.76,"body":"and those two have been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":98.88,"endTime":101.76,"body":"incredible mentors to me, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":101.76,"endTime":105.9,"body":"know, in, particularly Shannon,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":101.76,"endTime":105.9,"body":"because she's, she coined the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":105.9,"endTime":109.86,"body":"whole DedSec ops thing, and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":105.9,"endTime":109.86,"body":"just like to meet her and like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":109.86,"endTime":115.05,"body":"tell me just, like, teach me"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":109.86,"endTime":115.05,"body":"teach me. So I came about it."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":115.05,"endTime":119.1,"body":"And you know, and I think the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":115.05,"endTime":119.1,"body":"thing I saw a couple of times is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":119.1,"endTime":123.09,"body":"like the mitre attack framework"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":119.1,"endTime":123.09,"body":"and how I'm so involved in in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":123.09,"endTime":126.15,"body":"sort of NIST and all that. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":123.09,"endTime":126.15,"body":"tell. I mean, I think a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":126.15,"endTime":129.39,"body":"people who are just pure DevOps,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":126.15,"endTime":129.39,"body":"who really sort of try to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":129.39,"endTime":132.69,"body":"understand security better. You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":129.39,"endTime":132.69,"body":"know, I'm not sure all of us"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":132.69,"endTime":135.6,"body":"know, if we're not security"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":132.69,"endTime":135.6,"body":"professionals. What, to the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":135.6,"endTime":139.98,"body":"extent of what mitre does? Yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":135.6,"endTime":139.98,"body":"so it's interesting. I've been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":139.98,"endTime":144.3,"body":"with mitre for just over three"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":139.98,"endTime":144.3,"body":"years. And in in mitre terms,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":144.3,"endTime":146.19,"body":"that's like counting in dog"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":144.3,"endTime":146.19,"body":"years, like"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":147.36,"endTime":149.22,"body":"reverse dog years,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":147.36,"endTime":149.22,"body":"there are people that have been"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":149.22,"endTime":152.64,"body":"there for decades, that have"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":149.22,"endTime":152.64,"body":"been working to support the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":152.64,"endTime":155.88,"body":"federal government. So the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":152.64,"endTime":155.88,"body":"background MITRE is what's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":155.88,"endTime":159.9,"body":"called an F F RDC federally"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":155.88,"endTime":159.9,"body":"funded research and development"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":159.9,"endTime":164.25,"body":"corporations. These are"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":159.9,"endTime":164.25,"body":"chartered by Congress. And the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":164.25,"endTime":167.7,"body":"entire concept of these things"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":164.25,"endTime":167.7,"body":"came out after World War Two,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":167.97,"endTime":171.27,"body":"they realized that they didn't"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":167.97,"endTime":171.27,"body":"have the technologist. They"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":171.27,"endTime":174.57,"body":"didn't have the engineers, they"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":171.27,"endTime":174.57,"body":"didn't have the scientists."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":175.02,"endTime":177.72,"body":"Where are they going to get in?"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":175.02,"endTime":177.72,"body":"And at first, the answer was,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":177.72,"endTime":180.63,"body":"well, we'll just go employee"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":177.72,"endTime":180.63,"body":"industry, we'll ask industry,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":180.87,"endTime":184.65,"body":"and I realized that there's a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":180.87,"endTime":184.65,"body":"balance, because industry has to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":184.65,"endTime":189.51,"body":"make money selling things. So"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":184.65,"endTime":189.51,"body":"will you always get an objective"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":189.51,"endTime":193.8,"body":"opinion? Maybe not, not that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":189.51,"endTime":193.8,"body":"anybody's being nefarious. But"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":193.98,"endTime":196.41,"body":"if I have something really cool,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":193.98,"endTime":196.41,"body":"and I want you to buy my cool"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":196.41,"endTime":200.34,"body":"widget, I might try to help you"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":196.41,"endTime":200.34,"body":"make it fit into that situation."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":200.79,"endTime":203.97,"body":"So that's what MITRE was"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":200.79,"endTime":203.97,"body":"chartered to do. We are to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":203.97,"endTime":207.9,"body":"provide objective guidance to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":203.97,"endTime":207.9,"body":"the government. One of the big"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":207.9,"endTime":214.41,"body":"focus areas is cybersecurity. So"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":207.9,"endTime":214.41,"body":"I live in an organization. That"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":214.41,"endTime":219.42,"body":"is the advanced innovation"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":214.41,"endTime":219.42,"body":"centers in our cyber and"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":219.42,"endTime":223.14,"body":"software engineering group,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":219.42,"endTime":223.14,"body":"under a woman by the name of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":223.41,"endTime":226.68,"body":"when that master's fantastic."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":223.41,"endTime":226.68,"body":"And she actually said, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":226.68,"endTime":228.78,"body":"we have these two divisions,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":226.68,"endTime":228.78,"body":"we've got software engineering,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":228.87,"endTime":232.71,"body":"and we've got cyber, assess"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":228.87,"endTime":232.71,"body":"wonky, we need to pull those"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":232.71,"endTime":235.92,"body":"together. So instead of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":232.71,"endTime":235.92,"body":"emulating what's been going on"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":235.92,"endTime":238.05,"body":"in the industry for so while"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":235.92,"endTime":238.05,"body":"we've actually pulled them"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":238.05,"endTime":238.56,"body":"together,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":239.67,"endTime":244.14,"body":"let's see, the attack framework"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":239.67,"endTime":244.14,"body":"is one of many, many different"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":244.38,"endTime":247.35,"body":"things that are done on behalf"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":244.38,"endTime":247.35,"body":"of the public. You're probably"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":247.35,"endTime":252.36,"body":"familiar with the CVS, and how,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":247.35,"endTime":252.36,"body":"guess who manages and maintains"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":252.36,"endTime":256.08,"body":"that registry on behalf of the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":252.36,"endTime":256.08,"body":"public good. Yeah, that's mitre."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":256.5,"endTime":259.83,"body":"So they're very interesting."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":256.5,"endTime":259.83,"body":"From that perspective. I think"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":259.83,"endTime":263.19,"body":"probably the strangest thing for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":259.83,"endTime":263.19,"body":"me, having been with global"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":263.19,"endTime":268.44,"body":"consultancies, like Deloitte, is"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":263.19,"endTime":268.44,"body":"that they don't sell like they"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":268.44,"endTime":271.86,"body":"don't go and sell themselves. I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":268.44,"endTime":271.86,"body":"don't compete with industry. So"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":271.86,"endTime":275.01,"body":"if they put an RFP out and say,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":271.86,"endTime":275.01,"body":"We need somebody to build us a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":275.16,"endTime":279.3,"body":"cool thing. I can tell them how"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":275.16,"endTime":279.3,"body":"it could be built. I can give"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":279.3,"endTime":282.45,"body":"them ideas for it, I can help"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":279.3,"endTime":282.45,"body":"them to architect it, but I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":282.45,"endTime":285.69,"body":"can't compete if somebody else"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":282.45,"endTime":285.69,"body":"can do it already. So we're"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":285.69,"endTime":288.66,"body":"supposed to be that that leg"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":285.69,"endTime":288.66,"body":"ahead that step ahead. And"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":288.72,"endTime":292.11,"body":"especially with everything"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":288.72,"endTime":292.11,"body":"related to security, into what"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":292.11,"endTime":293.58,"body":"sort of your day job there then."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":295.83,"endTime":298.62,"body":"Great, great"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":295.83,"endTime":298.62,"body":"question. The answer is all of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":298.62,"endTime":299.19,"body":"the above."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":300.0,"endTime":304.41,"body":"Good at this at"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":300.0,"endTime":304.41,"body":"this moment, I am all in"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":304.44,"endTime":308.88,"body":"actually helping the army. We"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":304.44,"endTime":308.88,"body":"are working at the Pentagon. And"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":308.88,"endTime":315.3,"body":"we are looking at policy process"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":308.88,"endTime":315.3,"body":"technology in the army. And"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":315.3,"endTime":318.69,"body":"nothing I'm saying is like,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":315.3,"endTime":318.69,"body":"secret top secret. If you go out"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":318.69,"endTime":321.18,"body":"and you can Google all of this"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":318.69,"endTime":321.18,"body":"stuff, the way that the army"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":321.18,"endTime":325.26,"body":"procures software is the same"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":321.18,"endTime":325.26,"body":"way that they procure hardware,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":325.92,"endTime":329.97,"body":"project, start project end gets"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":325.92,"endTime":329.97,"body":"delivered, then you warranty it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":329.97,"endTime":334.02,"body":"for a year. Warranty, bad. Think"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":329.97,"endTime":334.02,"body":"about that. And then you pick it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":334.02,"endTime":337.02,"body":"up, and you hand it to another"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":334.02,"endTime":337.02,"body":"organization altogether, who's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":337.02,"endTime":340.74,"body":"to sustain it, just like you"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":337.02,"endTime":340.74,"body":"would a hammer or a physical"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":340.74,"endTime":343.86,"body":"gun? And there's all kinds of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":340.74,"endTime":343.86,"body":"ramifications that come with"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":343.86,"endTime":348.51,"body":"that, how can you do continuous"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":343.86,"endTime":348.51,"body":"anything? Well, you can't. If I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":348.51,"endTime":351.72,"body":"want to deploy something, it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":348.51,"endTime":351.72,"body":"needs to not take 15 months to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":351.72,"endTime":354.33,"body":"get it through different"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":351.72,"endTime":354.33,"body":"processes, for example, and"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":354.33,"endTime":357.78,"body":"depending on who it impacts it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":354.33,"endTime":357.78,"body":"could. So right now, I'm"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":357.78,"endTime":360.87,"body":"spending my time there with"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":357.78,"endTime":360.87,"body":"digital transformation getting"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":360.87,"endTime":364.56,"body":"after how do you actually"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":360.87,"endTime":364.56,"body":"decompose architectures that are"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":364.56,"endTime":368.73,"body":"there to be able to adopt things"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":364.56,"endTime":368.73,"body":"like data mash, right, all kinds"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":368.73,"endTime":369.0,"body":"of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":370.29,"endTime":375.09,"body":"trend setting leading edge to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":370.29,"endTime":375.09,"body":"enable us to act at the speed"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":375.09,"endTime":377.07,"body":"that we need to we've got to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":375.09,"endTime":377.07,"body":"deal with those peer"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":377.07,"endTime":381.75,"body":"adversaries. But sometimes,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":377.07,"endTime":381.75,"body":"another thing that I'm focused"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":381.75,"endTime":384.18,"body":"on right now is generative AI."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":385.26,"endTime":388.92,"body":"Everybody needs to understand"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":385.26,"endTime":388.92,"body":"what's coming. Everybody needs"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":388.92,"endTime":392.97,"body":"to understand where it's been,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":388.92,"endTime":392.97,"body":"it's not new. But it certainly"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":392.97,"endTime":396.06,"body":"is trending like trendy right"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":392.97,"endTime":396.06,"body":"now. So how do we help people"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":396.06,"endTime":399.72,"body":"not to rush to adopt things just"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":396.06,"endTime":399.72,"body":"because they heard the word,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":399.75,"endTime":403.5,"body":"they heard jet chat GPT, they"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":399.75,"endTime":403.5,"body":"got an account. They said, Give"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":403.5,"endTime":406.2,"body":"me a little bit of Python code,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":403.5,"endTime":406.2,"body":"they saw something they didn't"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":406.2,"endTime":408.9,"body":"know what it was. And now"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":406.2,"endTime":408.9,"body":"they're enamored. Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":408.9,"endTime":411.63,"body":"another area where I'm doing"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":408.9,"endTime":411.63,"body":"some leaning in so that we can"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":411.63,"endTime":415.38,"body":"better understand how it's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":411.63,"endTime":415.38,"body":"effect across the whole SDLC. So"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":415.38,"endTime":419.19,"body":"pretty cool. I mean, you were"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":415.38,"endTime":419.19,"body":"both geeks on general AI, we"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":419.19,"endTime":422.16,"body":"were recently on a panel"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":419.19,"endTime":422.16,"body":"together, and I think that might"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":422.16,"endTime":424.05,"body":"consume the rest of this podcast"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":425.07,"endTime":425.64,"body":"squeezing."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":426.75,"endTime":431.4,"body":"You have some brilliant ideas"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":426.75,"endTime":431.4,"body":"about that, about all this. So,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":431.7,"endTime":436.62,"body":"but let's go back to sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":431.7,"endTime":436.62,"body":"basics. So that's so I mean, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":436.62,"endTime":440.25,"body":"guess I'm trying to you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":436.62,"endTime":440.25,"body":"like, you know, it was funny for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":440.25,"endTime":444.27,"body":"me. Early in the DevOps"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":440.25,"endTime":444.27,"body":"movement, you know, there was we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":444.27,"endTime":448.68,"body":"tried to guard against anybody"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":444.27,"endTime":448.68,"body":"changing the name, right? Don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":448.68,"endTime":452.13,"body":"call it dev ops mark set, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":448.68,"endTime":452.13,"body":"know, just it's, it's one thing,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":452.13,"endTime":456.0,"body":"it's a metaphor. And Shannon"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":452.13,"endTime":456.0,"body":"coined it, and I'm like, Okay,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":456.0,"endTime":459.03,"body":"well, you know, like, in fact,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":456.0,"endTime":459.03,"body":"when people tried to arm your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":459.03,"endTime":461.79,"body":"arm, like, go argue with her and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":459.03,"endTime":461.79,"body":"tell me how it looked, how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":461.94,"endTime":465.84,"body":"successful you are after that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":461.94,"endTime":465.84,"body":"conversation, but then I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":465.84,"endTime":467.19,"body":"the thing for me was,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":468.39,"endTime":471.84,"body":"I had to change and flip my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":468.39,"endTime":471.84,"body":"like, please don't don't mutate"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":471.84,"endTime":475.89,"body":"the name, because it's only a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":471.84,"endTime":475.89,"body":"name to standing up and saying,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":475.92,"endTime":480.45,"body":"I believe in dev SEC ops. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":475.92,"endTime":480.45,"body":"part of it was, you know, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":480.45,"endTime":485.58,"body":"both attend, you know, Allen's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":480.45,"endTime":485.58,"body":"dev SEC ops, that runs through"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":485.58,"endTime":489.96,"body":"an RSA and, and I think it was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":485.58,"endTime":489.96,"body":"the first one where they named"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":489.96,"endTime":494.16,"body":"it the dev SEC ops from DevOps."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":489.96,"endTime":494.16,"body":"Right. And I noticed there was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":494.16,"endTime":497.64,"body":"just a lot more security people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":494.16,"endTime":497.64,"body":"showing up. So I did this sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":497.64,"endTime":500.55,"body":"of an informal questionnaire,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":497.64,"endTime":500.55,"body":"like, you know, when I met"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":500.55,"endTime":503.55,"body":"somebody who didn't seem like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":500.55,"endTime":503.55,"body":"the normal DevOps crowd, which"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":503.55,"endTime":507.09,"body":"at RSA, you would expect"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":503.55,"endTime":507.09,"body":"everybody to be, you would"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":507.09,"endTime":510.3,"body":"expect, because couple years, it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":507.09,"endTime":510.3,"body":"really is just the same old"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":510.3,"endTime":514.02,"body":"DevOps crowd. And they all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":510.3,"endTime":514.02,"body":"basically kind of gave me the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":514.02,"endTime":517.11,"body":"same answer, which was, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":514.02,"endTime":517.11,"body":"know, we didn't really think we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":517.11,"endTime":521.43,"body":"were invited when you call it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":517.11,"endTime":521.43,"body":"DevOps. And now you call it dev"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":521.43,"endTime":525.96,"body":"SEC ops, like, I should probably"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":521.43,"endTime":525.96,"body":"stick my head in, all we have to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":525.96,"endTime":528.9,"body":"do is add a phoneme and we can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":525.96,"endTime":528.9,"body":"get a whole nother population"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":528.9,"endTime":533.1,"body":"group in the door. It's all a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":528.9,"endTime":533.1,"body":"hack, but I guess the so how do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":533.1,"endTime":536.7,"body":"you view just dev SEC ops?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":533.1,"endTime":536.7,"body":"Either, you know, so as it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":536.7,"endTime":541.56,"body":"stands right now is is Is there"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":536.7,"endTime":541.56,"body":"too much hype is effective, or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":541.59,"endTime":545.7,"body":"we're, you know, just a general"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":541.59,"endTime":545.7,"body":"Tracy view, not too much hype,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":545.91,"endTime":549.93,"body":"very necessary. Low the the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":545.91,"endTime":549.93,"body":"term, I actually don't like the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":549.93,"endTime":553.65,"body":"term DevOps anymore. I don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":549.93,"endTime":553.65,"body":"like the infinity symbol. Even"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":553.65,"endTime":556.62,"body":"though you see it behind me"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":553.65,"endTime":556.62,"body":"there I my little I just like to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":556.62,"endTime":556.83,"body":"you,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":557.88,"endTime":560.04,"body":"because it implies"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":561.3,"endTime":565.65,"body":"that every bit every case, every"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":561.3,"endTime":565.65,"body":"mission, every business is going"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":565.65,"endTime":568.59,"body":"to be able to do the same"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":565.65,"endTime":568.59,"body":"things. If we take a step back"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":568.59,"endTime":573.45,"body":"and start talking about"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":568.59,"endTime":573.45,"body":"continuous change, and how do we"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":573.72,"endTime":578.16,"body":"adapt to enable continuous"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":573.72,"endTime":578.16,"body":"change? What does that mean"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":578.19,"endTime":582.87,"body":"across the whole SDLC? It's a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":578.19,"endTime":582.87,"body":"better mindset. Now, I've been"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":582.87,"endTime":586.14,"body":"involved with DevOps before it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":582.87,"endTime":586.14,"body":"was called DevOps. When we were"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":586.14,"endTime":588.99,"body":"back when we were trying to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":586.14,"endTime":588.99,"body":"figure out how what unit testing"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":588.99,"endTime":592.47,"body":"was and continuous integration."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":588.99,"endTime":592.47,"body":"What does that mean and when we"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":592.47,"endTime":595.38,"body":"define continuous as in once a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":592.47,"endTime":595.38,"body":"day at the end of the day,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":595.41,"endTime":598.71,"body":"right, but early enough that we"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":595.41,"endTime":598.71,"body":"could run things before we went"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":598.71,"endTime":599.01,"body":"out"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":600.0,"endTime":606.72,"body":"So it, it is not overblown that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":600.0,"endTime":606.72,"body":"people were running too fast."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":607.56,"endTime":609.96,"body":"It's the same thing with the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":607.56,"endTime":609.96,"body":"Agile crowd. Do you know Linda"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":609.96,"endTime":613.05,"body":"Northrup, maybe she's from"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":609.96,"endTime":613.05,"body":"Carnegie Mellon From Software"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":613.05,"endTime":618.6,"body":"Engineering Institute, somewhere"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":613.05,"endTime":618.6,"body":"around 2013 2014. I was"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":618.6,"endTime":621.45,"body":"listening to her at a at one of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":618.6,"endTime":621.45,"body":"the Saturn conferences, and she"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":621.45,"endTime":624.87,"body":"said something approximately"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":621.45,"endTime":624.87,"body":"worst thing that ever happened"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":624.87,"endTime":626.55,"body":"to software was agile."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":628.14,"endTime":632.82,"body":"We mean, where she was going was"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":628.14,"endTime":632.82,"body":"that there has there had been a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":632.82,"endTime":637.32,"body":"spike. And we're still trying to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":632.82,"endTime":637.32,"body":"pull ourselves out of this, that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":637.35,"endTime":640.23,"body":"we don't need architecture that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":637.35,"endTime":640.23,"body":"all teams are completely"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":640.23,"endTime":645.51,"body":"autonomous. And we left security"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":640.23,"endTime":645.51,"body":"behind. We know you're of the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":645.51,"endTime":647.82,"body":"same age that I am, I think"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":645.51,"endTime":647.82,"body":"we're actually pretty close in"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":647.82,"endTime":651.72,"body":"age. And I would guarantee the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":647.82,"endTime":651.72,"body":"security has always been part of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":652.29,"endTime":655.47,"body":"what you did when you were"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":652.29,"endTime":655.47,"body":"defining it wasn't always a bolt"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":655.47,"endTime":659.43,"body":"on as a right authentication"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":655.47,"endTime":659.43,"body":"authorization, it wasn't that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":660.15,"endTime":662.46,"body":"you're always thinking about it,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":660.15,"endTime":662.46,"body":"you're talking about your"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":662.46,"endTime":665.19,"body":"environment, you were talking"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":662.46,"endTime":665.19,"body":"about to transition from"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":665.19,"endTime":667.32,"body":"environment to environment,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":665.19,"endTime":667.32,"body":"you're talking about different"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":667.35,"endTime":671.67,"body":"threat vendors. Somewhere along"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":667.35,"endTime":671.67,"body":"the line, we got a little bit"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":671.67,"endTime":676.32,"body":"obsessed with going fast, and"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":671.67,"endTime":676.32,"body":"having autonomous teams, and"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":676.35,"endTime":680.22,"body":"some of what's happening right"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":676.35,"endTime":680.22,"body":"now is actually just recoil from"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":680.25,"endTime":684.9,"body":"having probably seven, eight"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":680.25,"endTime":684.9,"body":"years of crazy."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":686.19,"endTime":686.46,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":687.66,"endTime":690.9,"body":"that's my that's my thought. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":687.66,"endTime":690.9,"body":"think you're spot on i Same"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":690.9,"endTime":694.38,"body":"thing. I mean, like, DevOps has"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":690.9,"endTime":694.38,"body":"been very, very good to me. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":694.38,"endTime":698.04,"body":"but but like, I think there is a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":694.38,"endTime":698.04,"body":"world where I'd love to be able"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":698.04,"endTime":702.57,"body":"to say we don't need to use that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":698.04,"endTime":702.57,"body":"name anymore, right. And I used"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":702.57,"endTime":706.2,"body":"to sort of do in some of my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":702.57,"endTime":706.2,"body":"presentations for dramatic. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":706.2,"endTime":708.75,"body":"talked about the history of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":706.2,"endTime":708.75,"body":"DevOps. And then I talked about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":708.75,"endTime":712.26,"body":"how proud we all are. And then I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":708.75,"endTime":712.26,"body":"throw up a slide say security, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":712.26,"endTime":714.84,"body":"take my hat and I throw it on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":712.26,"endTime":714.84,"body":"the ground and go, Gosh, darn"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":714.84,"endTime":717.78,"body":"it, we forgot about security,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":714.84,"endTime":717.78,"body":"but and then I get yelled at by"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":717.78,"endTime":720.81,"body":"other people, like I didn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":717.78,"endTime":720.81,"body":"forget. And like exactly, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":720.81,"endTime":724.38,"body":"didn't forget, what do you mean?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":720.81,"endTime":724.38,"body":"That's right. But but there was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":724.38,"endTime":727.5,"body":"this emphasis on, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":724.38,"endTime":727.5,"body":"where you, you know, like you've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":727.53,"endTime":730.77,"body":"like, if you could go back in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":727.53,"endTime":730.77,"body":"time, would you? Would we have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":730.77,"endTime":733.68,"body":"set a whole set of different"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":730.77,"endTime":733.68,"body":"primitives for maybe the first"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":733.68,"endTime":735.33,"body":"seven or eight years of DevOps?"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":736.47,"endTime":740.19,"body":"I think so I think"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":736.47,"endTime":740.19,"body":"that we may have, the world that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":740.19,"endTime":744.0,"body":"I was in at that point was"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":740.19,"endTime":744.0,"body":"actually working at this with"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":744.0,"endTime":749.37,"body":"different states. And I was"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":744.0,"endTime":749.37,"body":"working on a child support. And"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":749.37,"endTime":752.25,"body":"I was working on integrated"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":749.37,"endTime":752.25,"body":"eligibility. So I was working in"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":752.25,"endTime":755.64,"body":"domains, where you had to be"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":752.25,"endTime":755.64,"body":"hyper vigilant about the type of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":755.64,"endTime":759.48,"body":"information who could gain"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":755.64,"endTime":759.48,"body":"access to it. So I never had"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":759.48,"endTime":764.1,"body":"that opportunity, personally, to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":759.48,"endTime":764.1,"body":"let my guard down. However, I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":764.1,"endTime":767.85,"body":"was riding sidesaddle with a lot"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":764.1,"endTime":767.85,"body":"of areas where they were and it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":767.85,"endTime":771.06,"body":"was because it was in the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":767.85,"endTime":771.06,"body":"interest of moving fast, protect"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":771.06,"endTime":774.06,"body":"the if you if you security"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":771.06,"endTime":774.06,"body":"people protect the perimeter,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":774.33,"endTime":777.09,"body":"we'll be fine with our security"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":774.33,"endTime":777.09,"body":"inside. Right. And that was our"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":777.12,"endTime":781.32,"body":"that was our mentality for for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":777.12,"endTime":781.32,"body":"quite a long time. You might you"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":781.32,"endTime":784.2,"body":"might like this, John. I've"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":781.32,"endTime":784.2,"body":"actually, to the extent"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":784.2,"endTime":787.95,"body":"possible, stopped using the term"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":784.2,"endTime":787.95,"body":"DevOps and Dev SEC ops, and I've"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":787.95,"endTime":792.39,"body":"been successful with the army"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":787.95,"endTime":792.39,"body":"with one of the efforts. And all"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":792.39,"endTime":796.59,"body":"that we're saying is you have to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":792.39,"endTime":796.59,"body":"you need to adopt modern"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":796.62,"endTime":799.47,"body":"software practices, what's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":796.62,"endTime":799.47,"body":"modern, it means it's moving."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":800.52,"endTime":805.92,"body":"You need to have continuous"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":800.52,"endTime":805.92,"body":"change. And how do you adapt and"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":805.92,"endTime":809.91,"body":"adopt continuous change? So"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":805.92,"endTime":809.91,"body":"we're working through it. But we"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":809.91,"endTime":813.69,"body":"as a big group, not just the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":809.91,"endTime":813.69,"body":"Army as a big group, we've got"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":813.69,"endTime":817.59,"body":"to work towards that mindset."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":813.69,"endTime":817.59,"body":"The interesting thing right now"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":817.59,"endTime":818.04,"body":"is that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":819.63,"endTime":822.75,"body":"we have roles that are called"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":819.63,"endTime":822.75,"body":"DevOps engineers."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":824.13,"endTime":826.41,"body":"Tell me what the hell that is."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":824.13,"endTime":826.41,"body":"I've been arguing against that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":826.41,"endTime":828.66,"body":"for a while. What's a DevOps"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":826.41,"endTime":828.66,"body":"engineer? Is that the guy that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":828.66,"endTime":831.9,"body":"builds your pipeline, or the one"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":828.66,"endTime":831.9,"body":"that does the software? All"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":831.9,"endTime":835.26,"body":"right, and how many levels"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":831.9,"endTime":835.26,"body":"abstracted from it I and I know"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":835.26,"endTime":838.05,"body":"that there are lots of surveys"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":835.26,"endTime":838.05,"body":"that say it's a great thing. And"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":838.05,"endTime":840.21,"body":"that's supposed to be where you"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":838.05,"endTime":840.21,"body":"get your money if you want to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":840.21,"endTime":842.37,"body":"watch something industry, but"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":840.21,"endTime":842.37,"body":"wasn't supposed to happen."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":843.78,"endTime":846.75,"body":"By creating another, another"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":843.78,"endTime":846.75,"body":"team to pull"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":846.75,"endTime":850.44,"body":"away. That was not supposed to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":846.75,"endTime":850.44,"body":"happen, by definition, but hey,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":850.62,"endTime":853.02,"body":"yeah, but now we have platform"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":850.62,"endTime":853.02,"body":"teams, that's the that's our"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":853.02,"endTime":855.21,"body":"biggest shebang. Right? No,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":856.02,"endTime":858.96,"body":"that's another"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":856.02,"endTime":858.96,"body":"whole area I think, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":858.96,"endTime":861.69,"body":"you know, it's almost not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":858.96,"endTime":861.69,"body":"wasting the time, we have to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":861.69,"endTime":867.39,"body":"talk to talk about the somebody"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":861.69,"endTime":867.39,"body":"I really I'm enjoying this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":867.39,"endTime":871.08,"body":"conversation with, let's, let's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":867.39,"endTime":871.08,"body":"stay on the positive stuff. You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":871.08,"endTime":873.21,"body":"know, one of the things you said"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":871.08,"endTime":873.21,"body":"I thought was really cool is,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":873.87,"endTime":880.53,"body":"you know, that I'm probably"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":873.87,"endTime":880.53,"body":"actually about 2018 17 or 18. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":880.53,"endTime":884.67,"body":"started I met Topo Powell he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":880.53,"endTime":884.67,"body":"first fell at Capitol and we all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":884.67,"endTime":889.8,"body":"know Topo is brilliant, and yes,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":884.67,"endTime":889.8,"body":"and an awesome person and and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":889.8,"endTime":892.74,"body":"started meeting him through Jean"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":889.8,"endTime":892.74,"body":"Kim's, you know, had this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":892.77,"endTime":897.87,"body":"organization group that we we do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":892.77,"endTime":897.87,"body":"these papers and and i i go did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":897.93,"endTime":901.32,"body":"you do this? I go on I do these"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":897.93,"endTime":901.32,"body":"In fact, probably the main"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":901.32,"endTime":905.82,"body":"reason I got interested in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":901.32,"endTime":905.82,"body":"security was I do these"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":906.36,"endTime":911.43,"body":"interviews of companies. So you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":906.36,"endTime":911.43,"body":"know, somebody would a secretary"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":911.46,"endTime":916.77,"body":"of a non secretary, but a Chief"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":911.46,"endTime":916.77,"body":"of Staff of a particular CIO"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":916.77,"endTime":919.02,"body":"would tell them che, oh, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":916.77,"endTime":919.02,"body":"need to bring this person in,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":919.02,"endTime":922.14,"body":"you know? And they'd say, why?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":919.02,"endTime":922.14,"body":"And he'd say, well, he wrote the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":922.14,"endTime":924.6,"body":"book on DevOps. And then, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":922.14,"endTime":924.6,"body":"then they'd say, Well, they all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":924.6,"endTime":927.54,"body":"say that, and you go, no, no, he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":924.6,"endTime":927.54,"body":"wrote the book on DevOps. And I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":927.54,"endTime":931.41,"body":"go in, and I was independent at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":927.54,"endTime":931.41,"body":"the time, and I didn't really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":931.41,"endTime":933.51,"body":"say, hey, you know, here's the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":931.41,"endTime":933.51,"body":"deal. I'm not trying to do any"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":933.51,"endTime":937.92,"body":"long term work. My gig is I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":933.51,"endTime":937.92,"body":"gonna go interview all your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":937.92,"endTime":940.8,"body":"people who have fingers on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":937.92,"endTime":940.8,"body":"keyboards, and I'm going to tell"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":940.8,"endTime":943.17,"body":"you the truth, and you're not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":940.8,"endTime":943.17,"body":"going to like it, but you're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":943.17,"endTime":946.89,"body":"going to pay me anyway. And I go"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":943.17,"endTime":946.89,"body":"interview hundreds. And so I,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":946.89,"endTime":949.71,"body":"there was one bank, one of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":946.89,"endTime":949.71,"body":"largest banks in the world, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":949.71,"endTime":952.8,"body":"interviewed like, 400 people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":949.71,"endTime":952.8,"body":"over a summer. And in the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":952.8,"endTime":957.48,"body":"stories I would hear, which is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":952.8,"endTime":957.48,"body":"peace, soul crushing, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":957.48,"endTime":960.36,"body":"like, you know, we don't tell"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":957.48,"endTime":960.36,"body":"auditors, things they don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":960.36,"endTime":964.5,"body":"already know. Or they, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":960.36,"endTime":964.5,"body":"we, we use the same, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":964.83,"endTime":968.7,"body":"TDD print screenprint that we've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":964.83,"endTime":968.7,"body":"been using for years. And so I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":968.7,"endTime":972.99,"body":"went to Topo. And I, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":968.7,"endTime":972.99,"body":"said, This can't be so terrible."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":973.02,"endTime":975.99,"body":"This just can't be like the way"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":973.02,"endTime":975.99,"body":"it is in large banks. And he's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":975.99,"endTime":980.34,"body":"like, it absolutely is. And so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":975.99,"endTime":980.34,"body":"in 2019, we wrote a paper called"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":980.76,"endTime":984.72,"body":"DevOps, automated governance"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":980.76,"endTime":984.72,"body":"and, and then, you know, we went"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":984.72,"endTime":987.0,"body":"back and now now, it's a book"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":984.72,"endTime":987.0,"body":"called the best settlement. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":987.0,"endTime":989.85,"body":"the long story short was, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":987.0,"endTime":989.85,"body":"I'm getting to my point here is,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":990.42,"endTime":993.48,"body":"we call it data to automated"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":990.42,"endTime":993.48,"body":"governance. And I was having a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":993.48,"endTime":997.59,"body":"conversation with Shannon, at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":993.48,"endTime":997.59,"body":"one point, and she said, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":997.59,"endTime":1001.22,"body":"know, that nature, I'm totally"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":997.59,"endTime":1001.22,"body":"paraphrasing, because I don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1001.22,"endTime":1003.44,"body":"know exactly words, but it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1001.22,"endTime":1003.44,"body":"something to the extent of that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1003.44,"endTime":1007.25,"body":"word stinks. And that phrase,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1003.44,"endTime":1007.25,"body":"thinks DevOps, automated go. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1007.25,"endTime":1009.86,"body":"it's something that she said"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1007.25,"endTime":1009.86,"body":"that, you know, I know what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1009.86,"endTime":1012.44,"body":"you're talking about when I see"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1009.86,"endTime":1012.44,"body":"you present, but like all my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1012.44,"endTime":1016.64,"body":"peers and security, hey, they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1012.44,"endTime":1016.64,"body":"think we've already done this,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1016.64,"endTime":1022.07,"body":"we got Archer or, you know, or,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1016.64,"endTime":1022.07,"body":"and, and we brainstormed and she"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1022.07,"endTime":1024.32,"body":"helped me sort of come up with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1022.07,"endTime":1024.32,"body":"and I don't know if it's the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1024.32,"endTime":1027.17,"body":"right word, but modern"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1024.32,"endTime":1027.17,"body":"governance, you know, just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1027.17,"endTime":1030.68,"body":"different from, you know, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1027.17,"endTime":1030.68,"body":"to your point, like, can we stop"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1030.68,"endTime":1034.16,"body":"using DevOps with something like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1030.68,"endTime":1034.16,"body":"modern software practices?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1034.73,"endTime":1037.79,"body":"Modern governance, so I've been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1034.73,"endTime":1037.79,"body":"trying to tease that out,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1037.79,"endTime":1040.37,"body":"although, you know, I haven't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1037.79,"endTime":1040.37,"body":"really, you know, I'm not my"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1040.37,"endTime":1043.55,"body":"I'm behind it. You"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1040.37,"endTime":1043.55,"body":"say modern at first, the first"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1043.55,"endTime":1046.64,"body":"time somebody ever said it to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1043.55,"endTime":1046.64,"body":"me, it's like modern, the hell"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1046.64,"endTime":1050.18,"body":"does that means I mean, 1955,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1046.64,"endTime":1050.18,"body":"right, because, and then we have"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1050.24,"endTime":1054.8,"body":"the 80s, which is postmodern,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1050.24,"endTime":1054.8,"body":"yeah, then I was, I actually"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1054.86,"endTime":1058.49,"body":"adopted it and swallow my pride"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1054.86,"endTime":1058.49,"body":"on that one, because I didn't"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1058.49,"endTime":1063.56,"body":"like it at first, right. But it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1058.49,"endTime":1063.56,"body":"really does reflect continuous"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1063.56,"endTime":1067.4,"body":"movement. Modern means now"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1063.56,"endTime":1067.4,"body":"modern means the direction that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1067.4,"endTime":1071.81,"body":"we're going. So modern software"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1067.4,"endTime":1071.81,"body":"practices are continuously"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1071.81,"endTime":1075.38,"body":"changing. Okay, great. Modern"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1071.81,"endTime":1075.38,"body":"governance will continuously"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1075.38,"endTime":1079.55,"body":"evolve. Okay, great. I actually"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1075.38,"endTime":1079.55,"body":"kind of getting behind that term"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1079.58,"endTime":1080.12,"body":"right now."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1080.54,"endTime":1084.41,"body":"Yeah, no, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1080.54,"endTime":1084.41,"body":"it is the right way to describe."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1084.74,"endTime":1090.02,"body":"I mean, I even sort of made the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1084.74,"endTime":1090.02,"body":"like, I could have got punched"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1090.02,"endTime":1093.44,"body":"in the nose. If we were in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1090.02,"endTime":1093.44,"body":"person. I said, What about cloud"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1093.44,"endTime":1097.94,"body":"native GRC? And I literally, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1093.44,"endTime":1097.94,"body":"felt like I was if there wasn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1097.94,"endTime":1100.31,"body":"a virtual screen, I would have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1097.94,"endTime":1100.31,"body":"been punched in those by"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1100.31,"endTime":1103.85,"body":"shattered but like, No, don't go"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1100.31,"endTime":1103.85,"body":"there. But but the point being"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1103.91,"endTime":1108.02,"body":"that I think there's a way to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1103.91,"endTime":1108.02,"body":"say, like, there's a world of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1108.02,"endTime":1111.35,"body":"which there is a line. And maybe"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1108.02,"endTime":1111.35,"body":"it's something like cloud native"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1111.35,"endTime":1113.84,"body":"and not that you can't do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1111.35,"endTime":1113.84,"body":"security for anything post cloud"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1113.84,"endTime":1117.5,"body":"native. But but the point being"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1113.84,"endTime":1117.5,"body":"that is a world where it sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1117.5,"endTime":1121.73,"body":"necessitates your point, a world"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1117.5,"endTime":1121.73,"body":"is changing rapidly and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1121.73,"endTime":1123.05,"body":"connected up to change and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1123.05,"endTime":1126.5,"body":"speed. Can you imagine that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1123.05,"endTime":1126.5,"body":"there are still places where the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1126.5,"endTime":1130.82,"body":"cloud is not the best option? I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1126.5,"endTime":1130.82,"body":"know that's scary. I know, scary"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1130.82,"endTime":1134.09,"body":"to everybody. But not all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1130.82,"endTime":1134.09,"body":"software is cloud based. Not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1134.45,"endTime":1139.19,"body":"right, we forget that there is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1134.45,"endTime":1139.19,"body":"an amazing world of embedded"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1139.19,"endTime":1143.42,"body":"software. It's incredible. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1139.19,"endTime":1143.42,"body":"we forget about that. And can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1143.42,"endTime":1148.13,"body":"you apply the principles that we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1143.42,"endTime":1148.13,"body":"espouse our dev SEC ops to that?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1148.22,"endTime":1153.44,"body":"Well, you bet your bottom we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1148.22,"endTime":1153.44,"body":"can. But again, it gets to we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1153.44,"endTime":1158.27,"body":"have so many hype, phrases right"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1153.44,"endTime":1158.27,"body":"now. Right? So the hype word,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1158.27,"endTime":1161.57,"body":"since November is what AI, all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1158.27,"endTime":1161.57,"body":"you have to do. All you have to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1161.57,"endTime":1165.53,"body":"do is say AI and that's the hype"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1161.57,"endTime":1165.53,"body":"word. Yeah, I think it was Dave"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1165.53,"endTime":1169.43,"body":"Linthicum this morning or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1165.53,"endTime":1169.43,"body":"yesterday posted something cute."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1169.85,"endTime":1172.64,"body":"Saying that, you know, it used"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1169.85,"endTime":1172.64,"body":"to be the, all the businesses"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1172.64,"endTime":1176.21,"body":"out there when when cloud was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1172.64,"endTime":1176.21,"body":"the Word, everything, every"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1176.21,"endTime":1178.28,"body":"product that they had every"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1176.21,"endTime":1178.28,"body":"service that they provided to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1178.28,"endTime":1183.38,"body":"you and cloud. He I think he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1178.28,"endTime":1183.38,"body":"called it a cloud washing thing."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1183.38,"endTime":1186.35,"body":"So you cloud washed everything."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1183.38,"endTime":1186.35,"body":"Right now we're AI washing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1186.35,"endTime":1191.3,"body":"things. So but in a kind of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1186.35,"endTime":1191.3,"body":"tracking back, the words matter,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1191.3,"endTime":1195.08,"body":"the concepts are more important."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1191.3,"endTime":1195.08,"body":"I believe that there are we've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1195.08,"endTime":1200.24,"body":"caused a lot of almost almost"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1195.08,"endTime":1200.24,"body":"like mental division. For"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1200.24,"endTime":1203.87,"body":"people, because now it is I've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1200.24,"endTime":1203.87,"body":"got my I've got my architect and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1203.87,"endTime":1205.97,"body":"my developer and I don't need"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1203.87,"endTime":1205.97,"body":"architects. That's a whole"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1205.97,"endTime":1209.18,"body":"nother conversation for later."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1205.97,"endTime":1209.18,"body":"So I've got my developers, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1209.18,"endTime":1212.51,"body":"then I've got my DevOps people."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1209.18,"endTime":1212.51,"body":"And now because my DevOps people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1212.51,"endTime":1214.85,"body":"are not really operations,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1212.51,"endTime":1214.85,"body":"they're more dev people, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1214.85,"endTime":1218.75,"body":"they're only doing the pipeline"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1214.85,"endTime":1218.75,"body":"and now need sre. So we are so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1218.75,"endTime":1224.18,"body":"hung up on labels, that we're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1218.75,"endTime":1224.18,"body":"not taking that step back and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1224.18,"endTime":1227.54,"body":"saying, What the hell are we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1224.18,"endTime":1227.54,"body":"trying to do here? What are we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1227.54,"endTime":1230.42,"body":"trying to accomplish? What's the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1227.54,"endTime":1230.42,"body":"value that we need to deliver?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1230.69,"endTime":1233.51,"body":"Do we have organizational"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1230.69,"endTime":1233.51,"body":"constraints? Great, what kind of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1233.51,"endTime":1236.69,"body":"humans? Do we need to solve"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1233.51,"endTime":1236.69,"body":"these things? If I look at the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1236.69,"endTime":1240.68,"body":"SRE information and say, Yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1236.69,"endTime":1240.68,"body":"that's what I need to apply"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1240.68,"endTime":1245.42,"body":"here. Awesome. But we're getting"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1240.68,"endTime":1245.42,"body":"so caught up again, on labels."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1245.78,"endTime":1250.49,"body":"You know, it's, it's always been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1245.78,"endTime":1250.49,"body":"that way. The one thing I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1250.67,"endTime":1256.7,"body":"happy about is the it's not as"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1250.67,"endTime":1256.7,"body":"as tool first as it used to be,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1257.09,"endTime":1260.48,"body":"where we actually we say the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1257.09,"endTime":1260.48,"body":"word culture now, we just say"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1260.48,"endTime":1262.28,"body":"the word culture, we don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1260.48,"endTime":1262.28,"body":"actually do anything about it."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1262.28,"endTime":1265.25,"body":"But we say the word culture, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1262.28,"endTime":1265.25,"body":"we talk about people more so at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1265.25,"endTime":1268.46,"body":"least, it's not tools first all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1265.25,"endTime":1268.46,"body":"the time, because that's been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1268.49,"endTime":1270.5,"body":"epic failures for us for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1268.49,"endTime":1270.5,"body":"decades. Right."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1271.28,"endTime":1275.36,"body":"Yeah. And I think the, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1271.28,"endTime":1275.36,"body":"the thing, too, is, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1275.69,"endTime":1280.97,"body":"you know, I think you're right,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1275.69,"endTime":1280.97,"body":"it is better, but we're still I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1280.97,"endTime":1282.74,"body":"think we're, you know, I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1280.97,"endTime":1282.74,"body":"again, I think it's, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1282.74,"endTime":1285.71,"body":"not to get too meta, but it's a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1282.74,"endTime":1285.71,"body":"human condition that we can sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1285.71,"endTime":1288.38,"body":"of work around labels and then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1285.71,"endTime":1288.38,"body":"figure our way in, and that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1288.38,"endTime":1292.34,"body":"because we don't communicate"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1288.38,"endTime":1292.34,"body":"really well do. So that's why we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1292.34,"endTime":1297.17,"body":"can, you know, take SRE see"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1292.34,"endTime":1297.17,"body":"somebody who talks about SRE"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1297.17,"endTime":1300.08,"body":"and, and then you see the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1297.17,"endTime":1300.08,"body":"vision, you know, the biggest"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1300.08,"endTime":1302.93,"body":"thing I see with SRE, and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1300.08,"endTime":1302.93,"body":"think we actually discussed this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1302.93,"endTime":1307.22,"body":"one things we talked about is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1302.93,"endTime":1307.22,"body":"where people will, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1307.22,"endTime":1310.52,"body":"there are people that are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1307.22,"endTime":1310.52,"body":"resistant to change, part of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1310.52,"endTime":1315.14,"body":"like, a classic, you know, ITIL"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1310.52,"endTime":1315.14,"body":"service management group, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1315.14,"endTime":1317.33,"body":"they're constantly told they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1315.14,"endTime":1317.33,"body":"need to DevOps and they're like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1317.51,"endTime":1320.51,"body":"you know, just go away, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1317.51,"endTime":1320.51,"body":"know, and then they come back,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1320.51,"endTime":1327.02,"body":"go away. And then finally, they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1320.51,"endTime":1327.02,"body":"see, you know, SRE, DevOps, or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1327.02,"endTime":1330.89,"body":"SRE inherits DevOps, or whatever"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1327.02,"endTime":1330.89,"body":"the nonsense that that was, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1330.89,"endTime":1333.02,"body":"know, not really nonsense, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1330.89,"endTime":1333.02,"body":"like, I think it was something"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1333.02,"endTime":1336.14,"body":"that just got used improperly,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1333.02,"endTime":1336.14,"body":"because then service manager"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1336.14,"endTime":1338.93,"body":"groups, the DevOps folk come"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1336.14,"endTime":1338.93,"body":"back, and they're like, hey, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1338.93,"endTime":1340.7,"body":"I'm like, we're Dallas. Now."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1338.93,"endTime":1340.7,"body":"What do you mean, wait a minute."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1341.24,"endTime":1343.13,"body":"I was here two weeks ago, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1341.24,"endTime":1343.13,"body":"weren't DevOps? No, no, no,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1343.13,"endTime":1343.25,"body":"we're"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1343.25,"endTime":1344.75,"body":"down. No, we're"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1343.25,"endTime":1344.75,"body":"definitely DevOps."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1346.46,"endTime":1349.1,"body":"Yeah, like we are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1346.46,"endTime":1349.1,"body":"SRE because we've been, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1349.1,"endTime":1353.72,"body":"know, like, in, in that that's,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1349.1,"endTime":1353.72,"body":"you know, that's a terrible sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1353.72,"endTime":1358.64,"body":"of, like, you know, offshoot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1353.72,"endTime":1358.64,"body":"what was supposed to happen,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1358.64,"endTime":1361.13,"body":"like, just like, like the DevOps"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1358.64,"endTime":1361.13,"body":"teams, like you mentioned"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1361.13,"endTime":1365.84,"body":"earlier. Right. That sometimes,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1361.13,"endTime":1365.84,"body":"like the phrase of the word"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1365.87,"endTime":1368.69,"body":"agile, I love that the thing you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1365.87,"endTime":1368.69,"body":"said about Lyndon Northrup,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1368.69,"endTime":1371.69,"body":"right, like, you know, the worst"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1368.69,"endTime":1371.69,"body":"thing that ever happened to the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1371.69,"endTime":1376.16,"body":"software was agile, right? Like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1371.69,"endTime":1376.16,"body":"I hope that's not what we'll be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1376.16,"endTime":1377.9,"body":"saying about DevOps someday, but"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1379.25,"endTime":1382.82,"body":"I think it will,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1379.25,"endTime":1382.82,"body":"the word will die away, and the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1382.82,"endTime":1387.02,"body":"benefits that we're gaining,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1382.82,"endTime":1387.02,"body":"will, will continue on, there"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1387.02,"endTime":1389.42,"body":"are a lot of bad habits that are"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1387.02,"endTime":1389.42,"body":"happening that we still have to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1389.42,"endTime":1393.47,"body":"peel away. We're gonna continue"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1389.42,"endTime":1393.47,"body":"to be crunchy with all of this,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1393.5,"endTime":1397.52,"body":"it takes we have to get after"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1393.5,"endTime":1397.52,"body":"the next generation. I think"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1397.52,"endTime":1401.03,"body":"that's a really important thing"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1397.52,"endTime":1401.03,"body":"right now. We don't have enough"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1401.03,"endTime":1407.0,"body":"people in technology, who we"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1401.03,"endTime":1407.0,"body":"need engineers. Yes, we need"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1407.0,"endTime":1410.03,"body":"developers but I need to I call"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1407.0,"endTime":1410.03,"body":"it tech adjacent. I need people"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1410.03,"endTime":1412.61,"body":"who understand who live close to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1410.03,"endTime":1412.61,"body":"it, right? Who are doing,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1412.82,"endTime":1417.29,"body":"they're going to be enabled in"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1412.82,"endTime":1417.29,"body":"in different ways. But there has"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1417.29,"endTime":1420.77,"body":"to be, I'm finding on that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1417.29,"endTime":1420.77,"body":"triangle. You know, you draw"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1420.77,"endTime":1422.96,"body":"that triangle where we've got"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1420.77,"endTime":1422.96,"body":"all these junior people and"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1422.96,"endTime":1425.54,"body":"you've got some, some gray"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1422.96,"endTime":1425.54,"body":"beards like us at the top."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1425.87,"endTime":1429.56,"body":"There's a middle section there,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1425.87,"endTime":1429.56,"body":"that I'm not seeing as many"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1430.34,"endTime":1434.48,"body":"growing up into that kind of mid"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1430.34,"endTime":1434.48,"body":"level leader, technology leader"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1434.48,"endTime":1437.75,"body":"and I want to see more of that."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1434.48,"endTime":1437.75,"body":"That's probably concern"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1438.17,"endTime":1442.07,"body":"is the area where"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1438.17,"endTime":1442.07,"body":"I'm like, okay, the, the old fat"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1442.07,"endTime":1444.53,"body":"white male wants to talk about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1442.07,"endTime":1444.53,"body":"women in tech."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1445.46,"endTime":1450.89,"body":"You know, I've seen, I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1445.46,"endTime":1450.89,"body":"from my perspective, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1450.89,"endTime":1455.51,"body":"the thing, it just, it breaks my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1450.89,"endTime":1455.51,"body":"soul when I sit in a room and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1455.51,"endTime":1459.05,"body":"it's, you know, 2023 now, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1455.51,"endTime":1459.05,"body":"like, within the last three,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1459.05,"endTime":1463.04,"body":"five years, you know, there'll"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1459.05,"endTime":1463.04,"body":"be, you know, the room will be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1463.04,"endTime":1470.63,"body":"96 77% white male, right and in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1463.04,"endTime":1470.63,"body":"and I, you know, I try to, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1470.63,"endTime":1473.99,"body":"know, in a different life, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1470.63,"endTime":1473.99,"body":"would literally just sit"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1473.99,"endTime":1478.73,"body":"somewhere between 11/10 11th"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1473.99,"endTime":1478.73,"body":"grade and just convince young"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1478.73,"endTime":1480.14,"body":"woman that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1481.609,"endTime":1484.369,"body":"I tried to tell my relatives,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1481.609,"endTime":1484.369,"body":"their daughters, their"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1484.369,"endTime":1488.959,"body":"granddaughters like, I cannot"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1484.369,"endTime":1488.959,"body":"tell you how prosperous this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1488.959,"endTime":1494.149,"body":"industry is and how much we need"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1488.959,"endTime":1494.149,"body":"better leadership better just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1494.179,"endTime":1497.809,"body":"diversity. And I noticed that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1494.179,"endTime":1497.809,"body":"you know, of course you you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1497.809,"endTime":1501.619,"body":"know, with your phone posture in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1497.809,"endTime":1501.619,"body":"the industry that you of course,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1501.619,"endTime":1505.369,"body":"you'd be involved in women in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1501.619,"endTime":1505.369,"body":"tech helped me I mean, I don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1505.369,"endTime":1509.419,"body":"know, there is no right answer,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1505.369,"endTime":1509.419,"body":"but it just it just seems it,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1509.479,"endTime":1513.619,"body":"you know, I don't. I mean, I've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1509.479,"endTime":1513.619,"body":"been thinking about this problem"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1513.619,"endTime":1517.219,"body":"way shorter than then I'm sure"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1513.619,"endTime":1517.219,"body":"you have. But at least since the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1517.219,"endTime":1520.579,"body":"beginning of DevOps where I got"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1517.219,"endTime":1520.579,"body":"to meet all these incredible"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1520.579,"endTime":1524.599,"body":"young, brilliant woman, I heard"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1520.579,"endTime":1524.599,"body":"these sort of terrible stories"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1524.599,"endTime":1528.769,"body":"about how, how, you know, they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1524.599,"endTime":1528.769,"body":"can be treated in this industry."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1529.069,"endTime":1531.499,"body":"And then, you know, now even"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1529.069,"endTime":1531.499,"body":"today, when I look at in a room"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1531.499,"endTime":1535.219,"body":"and you know, in, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1531.499,"endTime":1535.219,"body":"speaking to 1000 people, and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1535.219,"endTime":1537.379,"body":"just sort of pit in my stomach,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1537.92,"endTime":1540.17,"body":"I've been taking"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1537.92,"endTime":1540.17,"body":"notes, I've got all kinds of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1540.17,"endTime":1540.38,"body":"things."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1541.069,"endTime":1543.589,"body":"Like, when does it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1541.069,"endTime":1543.589,"body":"change? Or I mean, again?"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1544.009,"endTime":1546.949,"body":"Well consider, I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1544.009,"endTime":1546.949,"body":"was just talking, talking to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1547.699,"endTime":1551.959,"body":"Roseland, Radcliffe, talking"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1547.699,"endTime":1551.959,"body":"about when she was going into"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1551.959,"endTime":1555.709,"body":"college of the engineering"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1551.959,"endTime":1555.709,"body":"degrees, I think it was"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1555.709,"endTime":1560.989,"body":"something around 35 to 38%. So"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1555.709,"endTime":1560.989,"body":"it's on the rise. It's now down"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1560.989,"endTime":1566.539,"body":"to 18%. Female. Why is that? Is"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1560.989,"endTime":1566.539,"body":"it? Is it really because we're"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1566.539,"endTime":1571.189,"body":"redirecting women in a different"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1566.539,"endTime":1571.189,"body":"in a different avenue? Is it the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1571.189,"endTime":1574.399,"body":"workplace environment and some"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1571.189,"endTime":1574.399,"body":"of the toxicity that happens"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1574.399,"endTime":1581.059,"body":"there? Is it that we have pushed"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1574.399,"endTime":1581.059,"body":"for longer hours, right,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1581.059,"endTime":1586.459,"body":"everything goes rapid. I don't"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1581.059,"endTime":1586.459,"body":"know what that piece is. I do"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1586.459,"endTime":1591.139,"body":"know that. As much as I'm"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1586.459,"endTime":1591.139,"body":"involved in women in tech, I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1591.139,"endTime":1594.529,"body":"generally don't put out there"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1591.139,"endTime":1594.529,"body":"that I'm a woman in tech. And"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1594.529,"endTime":1598.219,"body":"that sounds kind of strange. So"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1594.529,"endTime":1598.219,"body":"older brother and I are best"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1598.219,"endTime":1601.009,"body":"friends. I've always been it's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1598.219,"endTime":1601.009,"body":"an old term, I'm going to use"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1601.009,"endTime":1603.259,"body":"it. I was always a tomboy. So I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1601.009,"endTime":1603.259,"body":"was always hanging with my"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1603.259,"endTime":1605.779,"body":"brother hanging out with his"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1603.259,"endTime":1605.779,"body":"friends, always comfortable with"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1605.779,"endTime":1609.439,"body":"them. It never dawned on me when"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1605.779,"endTime":1609.439,"body":"I was in college. It didn't dawn"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1609.439,"endTime":1612.049,"body":"on me when I first had, you"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1609.439,"endTime":1612.049,"body":"know, when I was moving through"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1612.049,"endTime":1614.869,"body":"the initial ranks, I never"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1612.049,"endTime":1614.869,"body":"really noticed that I was the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1614.869,"endTime":1619.849,"body":"only woman I was too busy to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1614.869,"endTime":1619.849,"body":"unreleased stuff, getting stuff"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1619.849,"endTime":1624.679,"body":"done. I didn't notice it. And it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1619.849,"endTime":1624.679,"body":"was about a decade ago, when"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1625.009,"endTime":1628.549,"body":"younger women in their career"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1625.009,"endTime":1628.549,"body":"newer in career would say that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1628.549,"endTime":1631.939,"body":"you How did you navigate this?"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1628.549,"endTime":1631.939,"body":"How did you navigate that? And"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1631.939,"endTime":1635.029,"body":"that's where I had kind of that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1631.939,"endTime":1635.029,"body":"whiplash one moment and realize,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1635.989,"endTime":1639.799,"body":"hey, we're no longer emphasizing"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1635.989,"endTime":1639.799,"body":"it the way that we were in the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1639.799,"endTime":1643.909,"body":"90s. And in the 2000s, we have"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1639.799,"endTime":1643.909,"body":"started to emphasize it less."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1644.599,"endTime":1648.019,"body":"We're now seeing that comeback."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1644.599,"endTime":1648.019,"body":"Oh, come up a little bit more."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1648.349,"endTime":1651.859,"body":"They, it's interesting. You"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1648.349,"endTime":1651.859,"body":"know, I have that little sign up"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1651.859,"endTime":1653.869,"body":"there that says real"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1651.859,"endTime":1653.869,"body":"technologist behind me. And"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1653.869,"endTime":1656.419,"body":"there's a there's a reason for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1653.869,"endTime":1656.419,"body":"that, for that to be there."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1657.049,"endTime":1660.469,"body":"Somebody asked me specifically,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1657.049,"endTime":1660.469,"body":"could you put your pronouns in"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1660.469,"endTime":1663.019,"body":"your signature? And you can see"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1660.469,"endTime":1663.019,"body":"that when your email goes out?"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1663.019,"endTime":1669.469,"body":"And I said no. What? I said,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1663.019,"endTime":1669.469,"body":"Well, I am wholly supportive."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1669.769,"endTime":1674.239,"body":"love everybody. I'm all for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1669.769,"endTime":1674.239,"body":"every kind of diversity that you"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1674.239,"endTime":1678.859,"body":"can talk about. Gender, race,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1674.239,"endTime":1678.859,"body":"educational, diversity, all of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1678.859,"endTime":1685.099,"body":"those things mattered to me. And"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1678.859,"endTime":1685.099,"body":"I spent 30 years not being the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1685.099,"endTime":1687.919,"body":"woman at the table. So why are"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1685.099,"endTime":1687.919,"body":"you making me out myself? I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1687.919,"endTime":1691.789,"body":"said, so instead of my pronouns,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1687.919,"endTime":1691.789,"body":"instead of you asking me about"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1691.789,"endTime":1694.069,"body":"my adjectives? How about I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1691.789,"endTime":1694.069,"body":"control my adjectives, so I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1694.069,"endTime":1696.469,"body":"don't want to be a woman in"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1694.069,"endTime":1696.469,"body":"technology, I'm just going to be"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1696.469,"endTime":1700.969,"body":"a real technologist. So that's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1696.469,"endTime":1700.969,"body":"kind of the backstory behind it."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1701.509,"endTime":1705.109,"body":"I don't, I think one of the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1701.509,"endTime":1705.109,"body":"things that we have to do is"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1705.109,"endTime":1710.929,"body":"continuously look past any of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1705.109,"endTime":1710.929,"body":"the trappings of what we see, if"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1710.929,"endTime":1714.589,"body":"you were I were just talking,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1710.929,"endTime":1714.589,"body":"you wouldn't know if I'm green"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1714.589,"endTime":1717.709,"body":"or blue, you wouldn't know and"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1714.589,"endTime":1717.709,"body":"you still don't know how I truly"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1717.709,"endTime":1720.439,"body":"gender identify, you might be"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1717.709,"endTime":1720.439,"body":"able to guess. But does it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1720.439,"endTime":1725.779,"body":"matter? It doesn't really"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1720.439,"endTime":1725.779,"body":"matter. So part of it is the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1725.779,"endTime":1728.509,"body":"next generation coming along and"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1725.779,"endTime":1728.509,"body":"helping to educate them. And I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1728.509,"endTime":1730.789,"body":"don't necessarily mean just the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1728.509,"endTime":1730.789,"body":"20 year olds, I mean, now I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1730.789,"endTime":1733.429,"body":"gotta lean in with that 40 year"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1730.789,"endTime":1733.429,"body":"old millennial, and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1733.429,"endTime":1737.239,"body":"how, what did they think? And"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1733.429,"endTime":1737.239,"body":"what are their perceptions? So"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1737.239,"endTime":1741.049,"body":"there's, there's a lot of work"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1737.239,"endTime":1741.049,"body":"for us to do. I also am one for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1741.409,"endTime":1748.069,"body":"advocacy. Lifting other people"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1741.409,"endTime":1748.069,"body":"up, regardless, I'm looking for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1748.069,"endTime":1752.149,"body":"the idea and lifting them up and"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1748.069,"endTime":1752.149,"body":"making sure that there's a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1752.149,"endTime":1755.899,"body":"really brilliant tapestry,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1752.149,"endTime":1755.899,"body":"right, of all of these diverse"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1755.899,"endTime":1756.859,"body":"thoughts at the table."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1757.369,"endTime":1760.339,"body":"You know, I don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1757.369,"endTime":1760.339,"body":"know you that well, but just in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1760.339,"endTime":1762.409,"body":"a couple of the longer"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1760.339,"endTime":1762.409,"body":"conversations we've had other"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1762.409,"endTime":1765.229,"body":"than just shaking hands at a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1762.409,"endTime":1765.229,"body":"conference, I can see that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1765.229,"endTime":1768.919,"body":"you're that kind of person that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1765.229,"endTime":1768.919,"body":"does sort of I mean, that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1768.919,"endTime":1772.249,"body":"always been mine help everybody"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1768.919,"endTime":1772.249,"body":"you know, and again, it sounds"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1772.249,"endTime":1774.439,"body":"platitudes like yeah, of course"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1772.249,"endTime":1774.439,"body":"this guy is going to say that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1774.439,"endTime":1778.309,"body":"but but my in my career and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1774.439,"endTime":1778.309,"body":"tell my young young boys same"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1778.309,"endTime":1781.759,"body":"thing. I'm like, you know, just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1778.309,"endTime":1781.759,"body":"just get out there and help"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1781.759,"endTime":1784.189,"body":"people and it just comes back."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1785.359,"endTime":1788.059,"body":"It comes back in"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1785.359,"endTime":1788.059,"body":"spades is my my dad used to say"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1788.059,"endTime":1789.109,"body":"have a command in spades,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1789.169,"endTime":1792.079,"body":"no doubt. All"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1789.169,"endTime":1792.079,"body":"right. Well, then I guess we got"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1792.079,"endTime":1797.089,"body":"to move on to the dreaded live"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1792.079,"endTime":1797.089,"body":"chat GPT discussion time. How"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1797.089,"endTime":1800.419,"body":"fun is looking at the clock?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1797.089,"endTime":1800.419,"body":"Could it be cool Was there an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1800.419,"endTime":1802.039,"body":"hour? Or maybe I only have five"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1800.419,"endTime":1802.039,"body":"minutes?"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1802.97,"endTime":1805.37,"body":"I can I can take"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1802.97,"endTime":1805.37,"body":"Yeah, we can meander down all"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1805.37,"endTime":1807.8,"body":"kinds of other topic avenues."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1805.37,"endTime":1807.8,"body":"And she wants to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1809.059,"endTime":1811.549,"body":"know, I think you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1809.059,"endTime":1811.549,"body":"have, you know, we both, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1811.549,"endTime":1814.759,"body":"know, again, we were recently on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1811.549,"endTime":1814.759,"body":"a podcast, and I think we had a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1814.759,"endTime":1819.949,"body":"shared mindset on, on what this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1814.759,"endTime":1819.949,"body":"is all about, what does it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1819.949,"endTime":1822.919,"body":"really mean? What's the hype?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1819.949,"endTime":1822.919,"body":"What? And so I'm just going to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1822.919,"endTime":1826.549,"body":"turn the mic over to you and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1822.919,"endTime":1826.549,"body":"people who are now and again,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1826.549,"endTime":1829.279,"body":"probably most people here, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1826.549,"endTime":1829.279,"body":"know, are going to be a majority"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1829.279,"endTime":1832.249,"body":"of DevOps, some DevStack ops"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1829.279,"endTime":1832.249,"body":"people, and I'm starting to get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1832.249,"endTime":1837.709,"body":"some sort of Deming, people who"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1832.249,"endTime":1837.709,"body":"are poking in calluses, what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1837.709,"endTime":1840.979,"body":"this what is the separation"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1837.709,"endTime":1840.979,"body":"between the reality to hide,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1841.009,"endTime":1842.809,"body":"what is the good stuff, what's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1841.009,"endTime":1842.809,"body":"the bad"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1842.809,"endTime":1846.559,"body":"stuff, but at the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1842.809,"endTime":1846.559,"body":"end of the day, it's a large"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1846.559,"endTime":1851.119,"body":"language model. You know what"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1846.559,"endTime":1851.119,"body":"that means? It's a model. It is"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1851.149,"endTime":1856.249,"body":"it speaks with authority, which"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1851.149,"endTime":1856.249,"body":"is why people are so tickled"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1856.249,"endTime":1859.039,"body":"with it. Right? It's, it's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1856.249,"endTime":1859.039,"body":"they're playing with a toy that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1859.039,"endTime":1862.249,"body":"appears to have this human"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1859.039,"endTime":1862.249,"body":"quality to come back at you."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1863.569,"endTime":1866.419,"body":"Blank knowing, first of all,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1863.569,"endTime":1866.419,"body":"starting with the mentality that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1866.419,"endTime":1870.139,"body":"it's a language model, really"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1866.419,"endTime":1870.139,"body":"cool language model ever growing"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1870.139,"endTime":1873.859,"body":"multiple different variations of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1870.139,"endTime":1873.859,"body":"language models. That's, that's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1873.859,"endTime":1877.939,"body":"really cool. We're still in"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1873.859,"endTime":1877.939,"body":"control. It is not sentient, it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1877.939,"endTime":1883.189,"body":"does not think on its own, we"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1877.939,"endTime":1883.189,"body":"have to remember that i did i do"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1883.189,"endTime":1886.099,"body":"a little mini podcast with Mark"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1883.189,"endTime":1886.099,"body":"Miller. It's called five or"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1886.099,"endTime":1889.069,"body":"five. And just about a two"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1886.099,"endTime":1889.069,"body":"minute entry every couple of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1889.069,"endTime":1893.779,"body":"days. On Friday, I decided I was"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1889.069,"endTime":1893.779,"body":"going to my entry was I was"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1893.779,"endTime":1899.119,"body":"going to have chat GPT, right,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1893.779,"endTime":1899.119,"body":"my podcast. Right, right, only"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1899.119,"endTime":1904.579,"body":"two minutes of of text only"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1899.119,"endTime":1904.579,"body":"takes me about five minutes to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1904.579,"endTime":1908.299,"body":"write that, it took me the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1904.579,"endTime":1908.299,"body":"better part of an hour to create"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1908.329,"endTime":1912.229,"body":"a prompt, that could understand"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1908.329,"endTime":1912.229,"body":"my target audience that could"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1912.229,"endTime":1918.139,"body":"understand my voice by having"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1912.229,"endTime":1918.139,"body":"samples of what my writing style"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1918.139,"endTime":1922.129,"body":"is, in order to be able to get"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1918.139,"endTime":1922.129,"body":"out something that that worked"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1922.129,"endTime":1926.959,"body":"well for me. So I say that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1922.129,"endTime":1926.959,"body":"because with a model, a model is"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1926.959,"endTime":1930.199,"body":"only as good as the prompting"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1926.959,"endTime":1930.199,"body":"that you're giving it to give"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1930.199,"endTime":1933.499,"body":"you something back. So we're"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1930.199,"endTime":1933.499,"body":"going to see a lot of emphasis"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1933.499,"endTime":1936.559,"body":"on prompt engineering, you won't"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1933.499,"endTime":1936.559,"body":"get if you're a marketing"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1936.559,"endTime":1938.929,"body":"person, you can get awesome"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1936.559,"endTime":1938.929,"body":"cheat sheets that are out there"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1938.929,"endTime":1943.009,"body":"right now. Not as many for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1938.929,"endTime":1943.009,"body":"software architects, software"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1943.009,"endTime":1946.339,"body":"engineers, not as many cheat"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1943.009,"endTime":1946.339,"body":"sheet yet. I'm working on it."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1947.269,"endTime":1954.409,"body":"I'm working on, right. So how is"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1947.269,"endTime":1954.409,"body":"it gonna affect it? If I think"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1954.409,"endTime":1956.659,"body":"about not going to talk about"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1954.409,"endTime":1956.659,"body":"production environments, right"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1956.659,"endTime":1959.059,"body":"now not going to talk about for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1956.659,"endTime":1959.059,"body":"the moment, I'm gonna think"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1959.059,"endTime":1962.959,"body":"about the whole creation"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1959.059,"endTime":1962.959,"body":"process. The model has to be"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1962.959,"endTime":1965.959,"body":"trained, the model has been"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1962.959,"endTime":1965.959,"body":"trained the model CAD models"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1965.959,"endTime":1969.529,"body":"will continue to be trained,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1965.959,"endTime":1969.529,"body":"it's only as good as the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1969.529,"endTime":1973.399,"body":"information that's put into it."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1969.529,"endTime":1973.399,"body":"Okay, whose code was put into"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1973.399,"endTime":1977.689,"body":"it. And if you're using co"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1973.399,"endTime":1977.689,"body":"pilot, that Microsoft GitLab,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1977.749,"endTime":1981.049,"body":"right, your GitHub turned that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1977.749,"endTime":1981.049,"body":"loose and looked at all of the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1981.109,"endTime":1985.819,"body":"all of the public source that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1981.109,"endTime":1985.819,"body":"was out there didn't necessarily"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1985.819,"endTime":1988.969,"body":"analyze it quality didn't"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1985.819,"endTime":1988.969,"body":"necessarily train the model for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1988.969,"endTime":1994.489,"body":"quality. So the model itself is"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1988.969,"endTime":1994.489,"body":"only as good as the data that's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1994.489,"endTime":1997.159,"body":"going into it, so it'll get"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1994.489,"endTime":1997.159,"body":"better. But where do you see it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1997.159,"endTime":2001.539,"body":"being used, and ain't gonna take"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":1997.159,"endTime":2001.539,"body":"your job soon, however, it is"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2001.539,"endTime":2006.699,"body":"going to impact everybody's job."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2001.539,"endTime":2006.699,"body":"I've been using it and playing"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2006.699,"endTime":2011.349,"body":"with it for generating user"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2006.699,"endTime":2011.349,"body":"stories, I'm going to be able to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2011.349,"endTime":2018.279,"body":"take somebody who's not so good"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2011.349,"endTime":2018.279,"body":"at translating into like mad lib"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2018.279,"endTime":2021.879,"body":"format, you know, as an axe, I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2018.279,"endTime":2021.879,"body":"need to blah, blah, blah, so"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2021.879,"endTime":2026.349,"body":"that I, they will get a leg up"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2021.879,"endTime":2026.349,"body":"because they can say in natural"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2026.349,"endTime":2031.959,"body":"language, I want to be able to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2026.349,"endTime":2031.959,"body":"do this. And then say, generate"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2032.409,"endTime":2035.769,"body":"a user story for me. So we're"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2032.409,"endTime":2035.769,"body":"going to see that type of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2035.829,"endTime":2040.719,"body":"transition places where if you"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2035.829,"endTime":2040.719,"body":"think about low code, no code,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2041.019,"endTime":2046.179,"body":"and the democratizing right"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2041.019,"endTime":2046.179,"body":"coming up with a citizen coders,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2046.539,"endTime":2049.629,"body":"you're not going to quite see"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2046.539,"endTime":2049.629,"body":"that but you are going to see"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2050.109,"endTime":2055.689,"body":"requirements you are going to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2050.109,"endTime":2055.689,"body":"see other types of functional"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2055.719,"endTime":2058.239,"body":"outputs where people are going"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2055.719,"endTime":2058.239,"body":"to be able to just speak"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2058.239,"endTime":2063.189,"body":"language to get at it. It's It's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2058.239,"endTime":2063.189,"body":"It's across the full SDLC I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2063.189,"endTime":2066.819,"body":"watched a really interesting"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2063.189,"endTime":2066.819,"body":"proof of concept yesterday,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2067.569,"endTime":2071.109,"body":"generating 3d models. It was it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2067.569,"endTime":2071.109,"body":"was beautiful and it was"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2071.109,"endTime":2074.499,"body":"wonderful and I didn't couldn't"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2071.109,"endTime":2074.499,"body":"zoom in close enough to get"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2074.499,"endTime":2077.259,"body":"after that code but it made me"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2074.499,"endTime":2077.259,"body":"want to go in put in those"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2077.259,"endTime":2081.489,"body":"prompts and see what I can get"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2077.259,"endTime":2081.489,"body":"after so it's we are going to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2081.489,"endTime":2085.569,"body":"waste more time playing with it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2081.489,"endTime":2085.569,"body":"upfront and learning about it."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2086.229,"endTime":2090.249,"body":"What I'd like to see is a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2086.229,"endTime":2090.249,"body":"smaller groups actually focus on"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2090.249,"endTime":2093.639,"body":"that let's do let's let's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2090.249,"endTime":2093.639,"body":"quickly do that research and"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2093.639,"endTime":2096.429,"body":"start to surface that out."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2093.639,"endTime":2096.429,"body":"Here's some leading practices."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2096.429,"endTime":2099.969,"body":"Here are the gotchas where it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2096.429,"endTime":2099.969,"body":"could work could bite you. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2099.999,"endTime":2103.659,"body":"Actually, when we're at RSA, one"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2099.999,"endTime":2103.659,"body":"of the things that I will be"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2103.659,"endTime":2107.289,"body":"talking about is just some of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2103.659,"endTime":2107.289,"body":"the gotchas. Some of the things"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2107.289,"endTime":2110.469,"body":"that are are good, right, some,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2107.289,"endTime":2110.469,"body":"some jumpstarts. And some places"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2110.469,"endTime":2113.979,"body":"where you have to be thinking"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2110.469,"endTime":2113.979,"body":"about, am I crossing a security"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2113.979,"endTime":2117.519,"body":"boundary? Am I putting"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2113.979,"endTime":2117.519,"body":"information in that we don't own"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2117.519,"endTime":2119.829,"body":"the ultimate model and could be"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2117.519,"endTime":2119.829,"body":"leveraged against me?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2121.48,"endTime":2124.87,"body":"No, you know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2121.48,"endTime":2124.87,"body":"think you just hit on, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2124.87,"endTime":2130.99,"body":"um, you know, I mean, the AI ops"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2124.87,"endTime":2130.99,"body":"to ml ops, right? In, I'll"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2130.99,"endTime":2135.4,"body":"probably say this, in that I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2130.99,"endTime":2135.4,"body":"haven't dug deep enough into"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2135.4,"endTime":2139.12,"body":"those things, to really make a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2135.4,"endTime":2139.12,"body":"judgement, which I'm going to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2139.12,"endTime":2143.41,"body":"sound judgy here is, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2139.12,"endTime":2143.41,"body":"God bless all of them. And all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2143.41,"endTime":2150.1,"body":"the work. But, but I never saw,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2143.41,"endTime":2150.1,"body":"it seemed like a lot of, again,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2150.1,"endTime":2152.38,"body":"I'm using words, I might get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2150.1,"endTime":2152.38,"body":"some of my friends mad at me,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2152.38,"endTime":2156.16,"body":"but false starts. But I think to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2152.38,"endTime":2156.16,"body":"your point, leading practices, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2156.16,"endTime":2161.02,"body":"mean, this general AI is real."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2156.16,"endTime":2161.02,"body":"And I think it is you're right,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2161.02,"endTime":2165.58,"body":"that, you know, people we think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2161.02,"endTime":2165.58,"body":"about, like how do we get ahead"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2165.58,"endTime":2170.89,"body":"of the good stuff. That probably"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2165.58,"endTime":2170.89,"body":"should be a deeper conversation"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2170.89,"endTime":2174.7,"body":"driven about practices. And,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2170.89,"endTime":2174.7,"body":"and, you know, one of the things"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2174.7,"endTime":2176.62,"body":"that you said, which was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2174.7,"endTime":2176.62,"body":"interesting, a gentleman that I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2176.62,"endTime":2178.93,"body":"work with Bill Benson, he's done"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2176.62,"endTime":2178.93,"body":"a lot of work with the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2178.93,"endTime":2182.26,"body":"government, he was at Red Hat"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2178.93,"endTime":2182.26,"body":"with me, and, and we work"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2182.26,"endTime":2185.98,"body":"together now I'm this quote,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2182.26,"endTime":2185.98,"body":"unquote, modern governance, if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2185.98,"endTime":2189.25,"body":"that's the right phrasing, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2185.98,"endTime":2189.25,"body":"he said the same thing you said"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2189.25,"endTime":2191.65,"body":"it was interesting, he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2189.25,"endTime":2191.65,"body":"talking about not not only that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2191.65,"endTime":2195.01,"body":"we've, that prompt engineering"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2191.65,"endTime":2195.01,"body":"is sort of this new thing. And I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2195.01,"endTime":2197.5,"body":"think everybody knows that, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2195.01,"endTime":2197.5,"body":"everybody has been paying"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2197.5,"endTime":2199.9,"body":"attention. But the thing he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2197.5,"endTime":2199.9,"body":"said, I thought was really cool."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2199.9,"endTime":2203.14,"body":"And you touched on it is that,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2199.9,"endTime":2203.14,"body":"you know, we he's a software"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2203.14,"endTime":2205.54,"body":"architect as well, sort of, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2203.14,"endTime":2205.54,"body":"you, that's his background. And,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2206.17,"endTime":2207.22,"body":"and he's like, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2207.219,"endTime":2212.079,"body":"we've kind of been terrible at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2207.219,"endTime":2212.079,"body":"telling software, how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2212.08,"endTime":2215.56,"body":"to do things, and then being so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2212.08,"endTime":2215.56,"body":"surprised when it like the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2215.56,"endTime":2219.76,"body":"business or whoever doesn't. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2215.56,"endTime":2219.76,"body":"in the sort of, like, not low"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2219.76,"endTime":2226.06,"body":"code, no code, excuse me, the,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2219.76,"endTime":2226.06,"body":"you know, maybe these tools can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2226.06,"endTime":2230.59,"body":"be just help us a lot better at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2226.06,"endTime":2230.59,"body":"things like learning how to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2230.59,"endTime":2235.09,"body":"speak through the patient to do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2230.59,"endTime":2235.09,"body":"better at describing what we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2235.09,"endTime":2238.69,"body":"want to be built, right, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2235.09,"endTime":2238.69,"body":"software specifications have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2238.69,"endTime":2242.74,"body":"some quality, right? Where I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2238.69,"endTime":2242.74,"body":"mean, that the biggest thing I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2242.74,"endTime":2251.14,"body":"see today is the gap between the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2242.74,"endTime":2251.14,"body":"people who relatively understand"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2251.14,"endTime":2253.9,"body":"quality from an organizational"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2251.14,"endTime":2253.9,"body":"perspective and what it means"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2253.9,"endTime":2258.85,"body":"for the brand protection, people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2253.9,"endTime":2258.85,"body":"who have to end the arbitration,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2258.85,"endTime":2261.43,"body":"like the three lines of defense,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2258.85,"endTime":2261.43,"body":"right, the arbitration middle,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2261.7,"endTime":2264.16,"body":"and then the people who have to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2261.7,"endTime":2264.16,"body":"sort of deal with it, who don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2264.16,"endTime":2267.94,"body":"really understand the why."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2264.16,"endTime":2267.94,"body":"That's a classic example of,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2268.18,"endTime":2270.73,"body":"like, Why do I have to, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2268.18,"endTime":2270.73,"body":"know, the, you know, the all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2270.73,"endTime":2274.54,"body":"these, like, tragic stories of,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2270.73,"endTime":2274.54,"body":"you know, your build getting"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2274.54,"endTime":2280.45,"body":"broken, because there was a, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2274.54,"endTime":2280.45,"body":"know, a possible inspection of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2280.45,"endTime":2283.36,"body":"an SQL injection, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2280.45,"endTime":2283.36,"body":"personally, I don't even make"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2283.36,"endTime":2287.35,"body":"database calls, you know, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2283.36,"endTime":2287.35,"body":"know, and they're like, those,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2287.35,"endTime":2289.84,"body":"they're all nuts, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2287.35,"endTime":2289.84,"body":"like, why did they have these?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2290.14,"endTime":2290.56,"body":"You know,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2290.62,"endTime":2292.09,"body":"some of those"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2290.62,"endTime":2292.09,"body":"things have been around for a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2292.09,"endTime":2295.78,"body":"bit, though, like, if I think"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2292.09,"endTime":2295.78,"body":"about cognitive load, and we've"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2295.78,"endTime":2298.87,"body":"been starting to talk about that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2295.78,"endTime":2298.87,"body":"more. There have been tools that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2298.87,"endTime":2301.72,"body":"have been around for a couple of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2298.87,"endTime":2301.72,"body":"years now, that, for example,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2301.75,"endTime":2305.17,"body":"will do security scans, and not"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2301.75,"endTime":2305.17,"body":"just provide you with a report,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2305.17,"endTime":2308.08,"body":"but it's in your IDE, and will"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2305.17,"endTime":2308.08,"body":"suggest to you changes that you"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2308.08,"endTime":2311.74,"body":"should make, I don't know, since"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2308.08,"endTime":2311.74,"body":"chat GPT that was already here."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2312.7,"endTime":2317.59,"body":"Same thing with like, I do not"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2312.7,"endTime":2317.59,"body":"like chat GPT for generating"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2317.62,"endTime":2320.8,"body":"test harnesses yet for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2317.62,"endTime":2320.8,"body":"generating tests themselves, the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2320.8,"endTime":2324.13,"body":"the actual coded test was"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2320.8,"endTime":2324.13,"body":"already things that do that. So"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2324.13,"endTime":2326.47,"body":"why am I gonna bother to train a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2324.13,"endTime":2326.47,"body":"model for that right now? I'm"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2326.47,"endTime":2330.61,"body":"just, I'm just trying to make a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2326.47,"endTime":2330.61,"body":"logical use of my time. But when"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2330.61,"endTime":2335.05,"body":"you have to have annotated"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2330.61,"endTime":2335.05,"body":"annotated test plans, and you"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2335.05,"endTime":2338.26,"body":"have to have annotated, there"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2335.05,"endTime":2338.26,"body":"are annotated test cases, right,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2338.26,"endTime":2341.98,"body":"not the automated but the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2338.26,"endTime":2341.98,"body":"annotated. Fantastic for that,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2342.01,"endTime":2345.49,"body":"right. Some of the things that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2342.01,"endTime":2345.49,"body":"you can do from an education"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2345.49,"endTime":2348.49,"body":"perspective, I actually believe"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2345.49,"endTime":2348.49,"body":"that this is going to turn"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2348.49,"endTime":2353.23,"body":"education on its side. Because"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2348.49,"endTime":2353.23,"body":"if I'm able to give you I don't"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2353.23,"endTime":2355.33,"body":"know whose model it is, but"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2353.23,"endTime":2355.33,"body":"let's say that I'm in control of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2355.33,"endTime":2359.56,"body":"that model. And I'm able to give"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2355.33,"endTime":2359.56,"body":"you the prompts. Right? And so I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2359.56,"endTime":2362.47,"body":"can start you can start to be"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2359.56,"endTime":2362.47,"body":"more interactive. Try this,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2362.5,"endTime":2365.29,"body":"here's how this is going to do,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2362.5,"endTime":2365.29,"body":"I think we're going to be able"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2365.29,"endTime":2371.08,"body":"to help people understand more"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2365.29,"endTime":2371.08,"body":"quickly. I do like the virtual"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2371.08,"endTime":2375.49,"body":"pair programming concept. It"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2371.08,"endTime":2375.49,"body":"also scares the bejesus out of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2375.49,"endTime":2380.29,"body":"me because that model is only as"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2375.49,"endTime":2380.29,"body":"smart as the model. And the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2380.29,"endTime":2384.01,"body":"person who's providing the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2380.29,"endTime":2384.01,"body":"prompt will be missing out on"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2385.3,"endTime":2387.79,"body":"really the understanding like"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2385.3,"endTime":2387.79,"body":"I'm sure back in your in"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2387.79,"endTime":2390.58,"body":"somewhere crashed your career."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2387.79,"endTime":2390.58,"body":"I'm positive that you wrote"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2390.58,"endTime":2393.34,"body":"something that would generate"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2390.58,"endTime":2393.34,"body":"code for other people like"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2393.37,"endTime":2395.89,"body":"cogeneration like T for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2393.37,"endTime":2395.89,"body":"templates, something somewhere"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2395.89,"endTime":2399.85,"body":"along the line, you did that?"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2395.89,"endTime":2399.85,"body":"Well, I did that too. And what I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2399.85,"endTime":2403.75,"body":"found Round was mean, people"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2399.85,"endTime":2403.75,"body":"would generate that code and be"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2403.75,"endTime":2405.94,"body":"like, Okay, I've got my code, it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2403.75,"endTime":2405.94,"body":"works great. And they would test"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2405.94,"endTime":2408.01,"body":"it based on what they"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2405.94,"endTime":2408.01,"body":"understood. And it would get"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2408.01,"endTime":2411.73,"body":"propagated forward, we're we're"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2408.01,"endTime":2411.73,"body":"going to have some quality"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2411.73,"endTime":2416.2,"body":"control challenges until until,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2411.73,"endTime":2416.2,"body":"you know, we people be people"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2416.2,"endTime":2420.61,"body":"understand better we can't just"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2416.2,"endTime":2420.61,"body":"have. So the thing I like better"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2420.61,"endTime":2425.02,"body":"about low code, no code for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2420.61,"endTime":2425.02,"body":"democratizing access to building"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2425.17,"endTime":2428.98,"body":"is that it has constructs in it,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2425.17,"endTime":2428.98,"body":"you're constrained. somebody"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2428.98,"endTime":2432.97,"body":"sitting at a generative model is"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2428.98,"endTime":2432.97,"body":"not constrained with code that's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2432.97,"endTime":2437.68,"body":"coming out. So we don't have"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2432.97,"endTime":2437.68,"body":"constraints around it yet. So"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2437.71,"endTime":2440.62,"body":"have you tried this some time,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2437.71,"endTime":2440.62,"body":"take a piece of code that you"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2440.62,"endTime":2443.83,"body":"think has a security"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2440.62,"endTime":2443.83,"body":"vulnerability, feed it in ask"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2443.83,"endTime":2446.23,"body":"it, I did this, it was kind of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2443.83,"endTime":2446.23,"body":"fun. It was only like three or"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2446.23,"endTime":2449.86,"body":"four lines. Tell me what"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2446.23,"endTime":2449.86,"body":"security vulnerability is, bang,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2449.89,"endTime":2454.0,"body":"here's a security vulnerability."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2449.89,"endTime":2454.0,"body":"Okay, can you create a harness a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2454.0,"endTime":2456.73,"body":"testing harness so that I can"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2454.0,"endTime":2456.73,"body":"execute this to better"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2456.73,"endTime":2459.94,"body":"understand how to what you know"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2456.73,"endTime":2459.94,"body":"what this exploitation looks"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2459.94,"endTime":2466.09,"body":"like? shebang, guess what, you"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2459.94,"endTime":2466.09,"body":"got? A way to test that bad"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2466.09,"endTime":2469.21,"body":"code? Well, that's being used by"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2466.09,"endTime":2469.21,"body":"the bad guys, as well as the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2469.21,"endTime":2472.75,"body":"good guys. So the bad guys are"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2469.21,"endTime":2472.75,"body":"learning as quickly as the good"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2472.75,"endTime":2477.58,"body":"guys are learning right now. But"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2472.75,"endTime":2477.58,"body":"so I will, I will continue to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2477.58,"endTime":2481.39,"body":"just barrage you with all my"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2477.58,"endTime":2481.39,"body":"thoughts around generative."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2482.2,"endTime":2485.38,"body":"I think that going"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2482.2,"endTime":2485.38,"body":"back to the risk control thing,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2485.38,"endTime":2488.41,"body":"like what I hope there is, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2485.38,"endTime":2488.41,"body":"know, one of the things I've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2488.41,"endTime":2493.15,"body":"been playing with is looking at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2488.41,"endTime":2493.15,"body":"compliance forged, right. And,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2493.72,"endTime":2497.17,"body":"and it just, you know, it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2493.72,"endTime":2497.17,"body":"overwhelming when you look at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2497.17,"endTime":2501.4,"body":"like that spreadsheet of like, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2497.17,"endTime":2501.4,"body":"think there's 1000. And then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2501.4,"endTime":2507.82,"body":"there's like 300, or 250"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2501.4,"endTime":2507.82,"body":"different frameworks. And, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2507.82,"endTime":2511.87,"body":"know, the way that I just did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2507.82,"endTime":2511.87,"body":"some work with a client that is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2512.98,"endTime":2516.49,"body":"involved with FDA compliance,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2512.98,"endTime":2516.49,"body":"right, and so you have all sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2516.49,"endTime":2520.93,"body":"of title 21 CFR stuff, right."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2516.49,"endTime":2520.93,"body":"And, and, and then they, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2520.93,"endTime":2523.54,"body":"they got to do sock two, they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2520.93,"endTime":2523.54,"body":"got I mean, when I look at just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2523.54,"endTime":2527.32,"body":"this, you know, this pharma"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2523.54,"endTime":2527.32,"body":"supply chain company, and I put"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2527.32,"endTime":2529.75,"body":"up a screen of all it, just the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2527.32,"endTime":2529.75,"body":"different compliances that I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2529.75,"endTime":2532.15,"body":"have to deal with. And then if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2529.75,"endTime":2532.15,"body":"you go to any other industry,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2532.15,"endTime":2536.92,"body":"it's the same thing. And he's,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2532.15,"endTime":2536.92,"body":"and I wonder, like, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2536.95,"endTime":2541.45,"body":"the way it's just my perception,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2536.95,"endTime":2541.45,"body":"the way that people are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2541.45,"endTime":2545.41,"body":"approaching this is, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2541.45,"endTime":2545.41,"body":"they're just a bunch of like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2546.85,"endTime":2549.55,"body":"you know, shields that we have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2546.85,"endTime":2549.55,"body":"to sort of get around this one,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2549.55,"endTime":2551.98,"body":"get around that one, and we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2549.55,"endTime":2551.98,"body":"don't really understand the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2551.98,"endTime":2555.73,"body":"context, right. And so I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2551.98,"endTime":2555.73,"body":"spending a lot of time in my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2555.82,"endTime":2559.06,"body":"brain doesn't jump to oh, can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2555.82,"endTime":2559.06,"body":"GPT for several days. So that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2559.06,"endTime":2564.1,"body":"not the first place I go. But I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2559.06,"endTime":2564.1,"body":"do sort of think like, Okay, if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2564.1,"endTime":2568.3,"body":"I can get a better sense of, are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2564.1,"endTime":2568.3,"body":"there 30 risk controls that are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2568.3,"endTime":2571.36,"body":"common to 80% of all the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2568.3,"endTime":2571.36,"body":"different frameworks, we know"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2571.36,"endTime":2575.26,"body":"there aren't right? And if I can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2571.36,"endTime":2575.26,"body":"start there, and then I'm, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2575.26,"endTime":2579.7,"body":"do a better job of like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2575.26,"endTime":2579.7,"body":"describing what this risk"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2579.7,"endTime":2582.73,"body":"control and how it's described"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2579.7,"endTime":2582.73,"body":"for like sort of NIST, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2582.73,"endTime":2587.05,"body":"versus whatever, you know, PCI"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2582.73,"endTime":2587.05,"body":"DSS or some"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2587.47,"endTime":2590.86,"body":"salami ask a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2587.47,"endTime":2590.86,"body":"question about this? Yeah. So"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2590.92,"endTime":2594.97,"body":"let's say you're using an agenda"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2590.92,"endTime":2594.97,"body":"to the AI tool. Who made the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2594.97,"endTime":2598.63,"body":"model for you, where the data"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2594.97,"endTime":2598.63,"body":"come from? That right now is my"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2598.63,"endTime":2602.95,"body":"biggest sense of pain. That's an"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2598.63,"endTime":2602.95,"body":"like, there are some things like"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2602.95,"endTime":2605.8,"body":"I don't know if you know who"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2602.95,"endTime":2605.8,"body":"Nick Chalene is. He was the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2605.8,"endTime":2607.69,"body":"chief software officer for the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2605.8,"endTime":2607.69,"body":"Air Force."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2608.62,"endTime":2610.84,"body":"Anybody who's been"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2608.62,"endTime":2610.84,"body":"following this for a while knows"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2610.87,"endTime":2611.32,"body":"of him."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2611.65,"endTime":2616.54,"body":"So he has, he has"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2611.65,"endTime":2616.54,"body":"stood up a generative model. He"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2616.54,"endTime":2620.05,"body":"calls it I believe, it's ask"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2616.54,"endTime":2620.05,"body":"sage. It's an LLP, though,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2620.05,"endTime":2624.25,"body":"right? He's he's a private"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2620.05,"endTime":2624.25,"body":"corporation, right? It's not a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2624.25,"endTime":2627.67,"body":"bad idea. Yeah, I actually"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2624.25,"endTime":2627.67,"body":"believe that we need to be"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2627.73,"endTime":2633.19,"body":"thinking about the quality of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2627.73,"endTime":2633.19,"body":"the model itself. Because to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2633.19,"endTime":2637.66,"body":"your point, if I fed in crap"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2633.19,"endTime":2637.66,"body":"about NIST, you're gonna get"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2637.66,"endTime":2642.07,"body":"crap back out. So who has"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2637.66,"endTime":2642.07,"body":"audited the quality of what has"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2642.07,"endTime":2646.27,"body":"gone in? If you ever get a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2642.07,"endTime":2646.27,"body":"chance to try? I think it's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2646.27,"endTime":2650.17,"body":"perplexity. Oh, I love perfect."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2646.27,"endTime":2650.17,"body":"Yeah, I like it. Because even"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2650.17,"endTime":2654.07,"body":"though it's only giving me a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2650.17,"endTime":2654.07,"body":"link to a website's not getting"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2654.1,"endTime":2657.01,"body":"generally it's not taking me to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2654.1,"endTime":2657.01,"body":"too many white papers, and I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2657.01,"endTime":2661.0,"body":"Tripoli pubs and things. But I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2657.01,"endTime":2661.0,"body":"love to get my simple sentence"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2661.0,"endTime":2663.94,"body":"and have the footnotes and see"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2661.0,"endTime":2663.94,"body":"where it deduced those things"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2663.94,"endTime":2671.2,"body":"from. We need to have that kind"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2663.94,"endTime":2671.2,"body":"of toggleable auditability if"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2671.2,"endTime":2673.99,"body":"we're going to be using this to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2671.2,"endTime":2673.99,"body":"build doesn't have to be on all"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2673.99,"endTime":2676.78,"body":"the time, but I need to be able"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2673.99,"endTime":2676.78,"body":"to turn it on and figure out"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2676.78,"endTime":2677.62,"body":"where it got it from."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2677.68,"endTime":2681.4,"body":"No, I think you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2677.68,"endTime":2681.4,"body":"know, so I, I got I started"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2681.4,"endTime":2684.49,"body":"playing so I was writing my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2681.4,"endTime":2684.49,"body":"Deming book and a friend of mine"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2685.0,"endTime":2688.93,"body":"turned me on to it to one of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2685.0,"endTime":2688.93,"body":"earliest adopters of PPT three"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2689.23,"endTime":2691.81,"body":"was something called Jasper I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2689.23,"endTime":2691.81,"body":"mean it was called Jarvis. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2691.81,"endTime":2694.9,"body":"think originally pronounced"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2691.81,"endTime":2694.9,"body":"Jasper. Oh my god, this is gonna"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2694.9,"endTime":2698.65,"body":"be great, right like and you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2694.9,"endTime":2698.65,"body":"know, and then I realized to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2698.65,"endTime":2703.87,"body":"your point about them Not all,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2698.65,"endTime":2703.87,"body":"if it's a well known subject, it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2703.87,"endTime":2708.64,"body":"will write you pages and pages"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2703.87,"endTime":2708.64,"body":"of accurate stuff. But it's the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2708.64,"endTime":2711.49,"body":"lesser known that it is or that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2708.64,"endTime":2711.49,"body":"there was known about it. So,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2711.76,"endTime":2714.34,"body":"you know, the first first couple"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2711.76,"endTime":2714.34,"body":"paragraphs, I was testing, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2714.34,"endTime":2716.23,"body":"I keep coming back with all this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2714.34,"endTime":2716.23,"body":"stuff, and I'd see something"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2716.23,"endTime":2721.96,"body":"like, No, he wasn't born in, in,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2716.23,"endTime":2721.96,"body":"you know, in Africa, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2722.8,"endTime":2726.49,"body":"you know, and then there's a Jim"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2722.8,"endTime":2726.49,"body":"Deming, who writes No, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2726.64,"endTime":2730.45,"body":"some type of other novels. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2726.64,"endTime":2730.45,"body":"then I realized, okay, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2730.45,"endTime":2732.88,"body":"like, You got to be really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2730.45,"endTime":2732.88,"body":"careful. And then I did the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2732.88,"endTime":2735.88,"body":"research on open AI. And that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2732.88,"endTime":2735.88,"body":"like, you know, that it was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2735.88,"endTime":2738.4,"body":"closed that GPT three, because"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2735.88,"endTime":2738.4,"body":"of the investment from"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2738.4,"endTime":2741.52,"body":"Microsoft, my first concern with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2738.4,"endTime":2741.52,"body":"that was okay, this is never"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2741.52,"endTime":2744.58,"body":"going to be as great as I'd hope"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2741.52,"endTime":2744.58,"body":"it was, until I get an open"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2744.58,"endTime":2748.18,"body":"model, talked about this on that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2744.58,"endTime":2748.18,"body":"last part is there are now"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2748.18,"endTime":2751.87,"body":"competing open models, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2748.18,"endTime":2751.87,"body":"before does actually accept"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2751.87,"endTime":2756.4,"body":"about 40 pages. So it's gotten a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2751.87,"endTime":2756.4,"body":"little more malleable. But at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2756.4,"endTime":2759.31,"body":"the end of the day, if we want"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2756.4,"endTime":2759.31,"body":"to do the kinds of things that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2759.34,"endTime":2762.91,"body":"you're talking about, or I'm"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2759.34,"endTime":2762.91,"body":"talking about, I need to source"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2762.91,"endTime":2766.24,"body":"for the model. And then I call"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2762.91,"endTime":2766.24,"body":"that cannon, I think I can"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2766.24,"endTime":2768.58,"body":"remember one from Stanford that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2766.24,"endTime":2768.58,"body":"somebody just turned me on to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2768.58,"endTime":2773.17,"body":"the other day, but they have a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2768.58,"endTime":2773.17,"body":"competitive version of, of an"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2773.17,"endTime":2777.7,"body":"open AI, that's supposed to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2773.17,"endTime":2777.7,"body":"generate much cheaper but and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2777.7,"endTime":2781.63,"body":"think my my concern on that last"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2777.7,"endTime":2781.63,"body":"podcast was, you know, that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2781.63,"endTime":2787.06,"body":"maybe, you know, maybe GPT has"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2781.63,"endTime":2787.06,"body":"jumped the shark, and we're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2787.06,"endTime":2789.52,"body":"stuck with a closed model"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2787.06,"endTime":2789.52,"body":"forever, and you are more the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2789.52,"endTime":2793.21,"body":"positive? Like no doubt, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2789.52,"endTime":2793.21,"body":"there'll be competing models"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2793.21,"endTime":2795.52,"body":"that will be able to do the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2793.21,"endTime":2795.52,"body":"things we really want to do,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2795.55,"endTime":2799.3,"body":"they may have, all"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2795.55,"endTime":2799.3,"body":"you have to do is to question"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2799.3,"endTime":2801.91,"body":"that, and I don't know the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2799.3,"endTime":2801.91,"body":"answer. Look at what just"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2801.91,"endTime":2805.63,"body":"happened with barn house, how"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2801.91,"endTime":2805.63,"body":"well accepted is that people are"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2805.63,"endTime":2808.57,"body":"still going to GPT there are"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2805.63,"endTime":2808.57,"body":"lots of competitors out there"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2808.57,"endTime":2812.17,"body":"right now, lots of interesting"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2808.57,"endTime":2812.17,"body":"tools, I have to say, chat GPT,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2812.17,"endTime":2814.36,"body":"and somebody's gonna sign up for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2812.17,"endTime":2814.36,"body":"whatever it is you're selling"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2814.48,"endTime":2818.89,"body":"before they because there's a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2814.48,"endTime":2818.89,"body":"massive hype cycle to it right"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2818.89,"endTime":2824.47,"body":"now, I do believe that we have"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2818.89,"endTime":2824.47,"body":"to have some private models, I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2824.47,"endTime":2829.42,"body":"think, you know, putting on my"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2824.47,"endTime":2829.42,"body":"US citizen, I think that for the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2829.48,"endTime":2835.36,"body":"good of the US, we need to have"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2829.48,"endTime":2835.36,"body":"some US centric models. If I'm"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2835.36,"endTime":2838.39,"body":"working with defense, and if I'm"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2835.36,"endTime":2838.39,"body":"building software, or if I'm"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2838.39,"endTime":2841.24,"body":"trying to understand analytics"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2838.39,"endTime":2841.24,"body":"that have to do with the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2841.24,"endTime":2844.54,"body":"tactical battlefield. I think we"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2841.24,"endTime":2844.54,"body":"need to have those models, we"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2844.54,"endTime":2846.76,"body":"need to train those models, we"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2844.54,"endTime":2846.76,"body":"need to own those models. And"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2846.76,"endTime":2849.16,"body":"that and that's an okay,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2846.76,"endTime":2849.16,"body":"situation, I don't believe that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2849.16,"endTime":2852.25,"body":"all models should be open. I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2849.16,"endTime":2852.25,"body":"also don't believe that all"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2852.25,"endTime":2855.16,"body":"models should be closed. But"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2852.25,"endTime":2855.16,"body":"we're not thinking about this"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2855.16,"endTime":2859.54,"body":"yet. We're just rushing to play"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2855.16,"endTime":2859.54,"body":"with the models."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2860.08,"endTime":2861.91,"body":"Yeah. And it sort"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2860.08,"endTime":2861.91,"body":"of goes back to we talked about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2861.91,"endTime":2867.34,"body":"early about rushing to do the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2861.91,"endTime":2867.34,"body":"DevOps, like we tend to sort of,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2867.67,"endTime":2870.67,"body":"I mean, that's human nature. But"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2867.67,"endTime":2870.67,"body":"you know, and in the end, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2870.67,"endTime":2874.72,"body":"the positive is like that there"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2870.67,"endTime":2874.72,"body":"are positives, we that we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2874.72,"endTime":2875.98,"body":"accomplish things right."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2876.009,"endTime":2878.229,"body":"So here's where I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2876.009,"endTime":2878.229,"body":"think it's gonna be fun. I don't"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2878.259,"endTime":2880.239,"body":"I don't know if anybody's"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2878.259,"endTime":2880.239,"body":"playing with this only because"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2880.239,"endTime":2882.219,"body":"it only dawned on me this"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2880.239,"endTime":2882.219,"body":"morning, I was thinking back to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2882.219,"endTime":2886.089,"body":"some work I had done with the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2882.219,"endTime":2886.089,"body":"IRS. And we were looking at"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2886.359,"endTime":2889.239,"body":"modern software practices and"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2886.359,"endTime":2889.239,"body":"helping them. They also have a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2889.239,"endTime":2893.559,"body":"number of all kinds of massive"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2889.239,"endTime":2893.559,"body":"programs and program offices."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2894.459,"endTime":2897.489,"body":"They still have mainframes, some"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2894.459,"endTime":2897.489,"body":"of the stuff is amazing and"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2897.489,"endTime":2899.529,"body":"excellent, good. Some of the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2897.489,"endTime":2899.529,"body":"things they've been trying to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2899.529,"endTime":2903.579,"body":"modernize for 25 years, I do"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2899.529,"endTime":2903.579,"body":"think that we're going to be"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2903.579,"endTime":2909.369,"body":"able to accelerate modernization"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2903.579,"endTime":2909.369,"body":"of true legacy software, we're"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2909.369,"endTime":2911.889,"body":"gonna have to be careful because"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2909.369,"endTime":2911.889,"body":"some of its really effective and"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2911.889,"endTime":2914.139,"body":"efficient and doesn't need to be"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2911.889,"endTime":2914.139,"body":"changed. Right? We need more"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2914.139,"endTime":2916.509,"body":"COBOL developers? Yes. I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2914.139,"endTime":2916.509,"body":"actually said that. No, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2916.509,"endTime":2921.159,"body":"going to be the person to do"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2916.509,"endTime":2921.159,"body":"that. Visual COBOL Do you"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2921.159,"endTime":2924.519,"body":"remember when that came out?"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2921.159,"endTime":2924.519,"body":"Fujitsu published that probably"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2924.519,"endTime":2928.209,"body":"two decades ago, that I think"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2924.519,"endTime":2928.209,"body":"we're gonna see some interesting"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2928.209,"endTime":2933.279,"body":"use cases around things like"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2928.209,"endTime":2933.279,"body":"that modernization, I, there are"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2933.309,"endTime":2936.099,"body":"bits of software that exist."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2933.309,"endTime":2936.099,"body":"I've looked at them. And I said,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2936.099,"endTime":2941.139,"body":"Okay, where's the documentation?"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2936.099,"endTime":2941.139,"body":"Documentation, at least I can"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2941.139,"endTime":2945.279,"body":"feed it to it and say, Tell me"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2941.139,"endTime":2945.279,"body":"what this does and explain to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2945.279,"endTime":2948.999,"body":"the model. What the, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2945.279,"endTime":2948.999,"body":"if I understand how the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2948.999,"endTime":2951.759,"body":"parameters are being defined, if"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2948.999,"endTime":2951.759,"body":"I understand maybe there's, you"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2951.759,"endTime":2954.939,"body":"know, they had coding standards"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2951.759,"endTime":2954.939,"body":"of some point, pump that in,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2954.969,"endTime":2957.999,"body":"pump the other thing in and not"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2954.969,"endTime":2957.999,"body":"do what we have to do oftentimes"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2957.999,"endTime":2960.939,"body":"today, which is we crack the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2957.999,"endTime":2960.939,"body":"code, and we look at it and we"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2960.939,"endTime":2963.879,"body":"study it and we put tracers in"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2960.939,"endTime":2963.879,"body":"it, I think we're able to do"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2963.879,"endTime":2968.919,"body":"some pretty cool stuff to at"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2963.879,"endTime":2968.919,"body":"least explain and document this"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":2969.129,"endTime":2970.209,"body":"old code."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2970.239,"endTime":2971.979,"body":"No, I think you're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2970.239,"endTime":2971.979,"body":"right. You know, it's funny"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2971.979,"endTime":2976.719,"body":"because Scott Pruitt CSG has"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2971.979,"endTime":2976.719,"body":"been a longtime he's the he's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2976.719,"endTime":2979.269,"body":"one of the interesting, there"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2976.719,"endTime":2979.269,"body":"are certain people that have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2979.269,"endTime":2983.709,"body":"spoken almost at every DevOps"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2979.269,"endTime":2983.709,"body":"enterprise summit from the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2983.709,"endTime":2986.589,"body":"beginning. And Scott Pruett was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2983.709,"endTime":2986.589,"body":"one of those and, and one of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2986.589,"endTime":2989.229,"body":"things that's interesting about"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2986.589,"endTime":2989.229,"body":"is you can watch him go back to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2989.229,"endTime":2994.629,"body":"like 2015 And watch what he said"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2989.229,"endTime":2994.629,"body":"about his company then, and what"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2994.629,"endTime":2997.899,"body":"they were planning on doing the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2994.629,"endTime":2997.899,"body":"next year and 16 1718 and it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2997.899,"endTime":3000.839,"body":"like this really just helped"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2997.899,"endTime":3000.839,"body":"people like I think Jared Scott"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3000.839,"endTime":3005.969,"body":"proved to Doug 17, we'll start"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3000.839,"endTime":3005.969,"body":"here, but we had to write, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3005.969,"endTime":3008.519,"body":"one of the things he did, which"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3005.969,"endTime":3008.519,"body":"was they brought in this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3008.519,"endTime":3013.139,"body":"company, that, that were these"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3008.519,"endTime":3013.139,"body":"people that were like incredible"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3013.139,"endTime":3016.499,"body":"Java programmers, but they knew"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3013.139,"endTime":3016.499,"body":"mainframe assembler. And they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3016.499,"endTime":3020.699,"body":"literally, were able to prove"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3016.499,"endTime":3020.699,"body":"case that actually what you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3020.699,"endTime":3024.029,"body":"know, again, is this sort of a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3020.699,"endTime":3024.029,"body":"plague, but like many companies"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3024.029,"endTime":3028.229,"body":"are stuck with large system, a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3024.029,"endTime":3028.229,"body":"record model. It's written in,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3028.229,"endTime":3031.799,"body":"you know, either COBOL or a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3028.229,"endTime":3031.799,"body":"mainframe assembler. And they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3031.799,"endTime":3035.039,"body":"actually successfully pulled it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3031.799,"endTime":3035.039,"body":"off using that sort of concept"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3035.039,"endTime":3039.659,"body":"that you had, which was they the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3035.039,"endTime":3039.659,"body":"few last surviving mainframe"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3039.659,"endTime":3044.009,"body":"assemblers would explain to them"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3039.659,"endTime":3044.009,"body":"what the code was doing. That's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3044.009,"endTime":3047.189,"body":"how we do it in Java? Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3044.009,"endTime":3047.189,"body":"think you're right. I think that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3047.759,"endTime":3051.269,"body":"at the very least, we would have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3047.759,"endTime":3051.269,"body":"a better documentation system."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3051.659,"endTime":3054.839,"body":"If we can take, we"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3051.659,"endTime":3054.839,"body":"can take our poison. Yeah, it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3054.839,"endTime":3057.329,"body":"doesn't necessarily mean that we"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3054.839,"endTime":3057.329,"body":"have to have a do code"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3057.329,"endTime":3062.579,"body":"conversion. That would be great."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3057.329,"endTime":3062.579,"body":"I know, the millions, the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3062.579,"endTime":3067.409,"body":"millions that have been spent on"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3062.579,"endTime":3067.409,"body":"writing conversion frameworks,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3067.409,"endTime":3071.849,"body":"and what was it J CLA? Probably,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3067.409,"endTime":3071.849,"body":"oh, probably 20 years ago,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3071.849,"endTime":3074.459,"body":"there's all just in different"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3071.849,"endTime":3074.459,"body":"kinds of companies faded in this"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3074.459,"endTime":3079.289,"body":"way. It'll convert it to that."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3074.459,"endTime":3079.289,"body":"Well, large language models"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3079.649,"endTime":3082.949,"body":"offer, right it because it's a"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3079.649,"endTime":3082.949,"body":"language model. So we're gonna"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3082.949,"endTime":3085.709,"body":"give it a language and have it"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3082.949,"endTime":3085.709,"body":"converted to another language."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3085.709,"endTime":3090.479,"body":"Great, that's a great use for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3085.709,"endTime":3090.479,"body":"it. If I had enough time, if I"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3090.479,"endTime":3092.669,"body":"hadn't, if I didn't, if I didn't"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3090.479,"endTime":3092.669,"body":"sleep, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3092.67,"endTime":3094.17,"body":"say that a lot"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3092.67,"endTime":3094.17,"body":"these days."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3095.13,"endTime":3099.06,"body":"I would love to"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3095.13,"endTime":3099.06,"body":"dive into that. Actually, that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3099.06,"endTime":3103.11,"body":"exact use case, because there is"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3099.06,"endTime":3103.11,"body":"so much legacy code. We're"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3103.11,"endTime":3106.32,"body":"training people on how to write"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3103.11,"endTime":3106.32,"body":"because we have a generation"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3106.32,"endTime":3108.9,"body":"that's aging out, the boomers"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3106.32,"endTime":3108.9,"body":"are only going to be coding for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3108.9,"endTime":3112.2,"body":"so much longer. You've got Gen X"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3108.9,"endTime":3112.2,"body":"trailing behind, they don't want"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3112.2,"endTime":3114.87,"body":"to touch the COBOL code. If they"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3112.2,"endTime":3114.87,"body":"did have to write the kind of"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3114.87,"endTime":3118.44,"body":"keep their head low. The"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3114.87,"endTime":3118.44,"body":"youngins, you had a pretty penny"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3118.44,"endTime":3121.14,"body":"to even be interested. So we"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3118.44,"endTime":3121.14,"body":"have to make sure that we are"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3121.14,"endTime":3125.34,"body":"going to be able to manage and"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3121.14,"endTime":3125.34,"body":"maintain this. At a minimum"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3125.64,"endTime":3127.77,"body":"getting after that"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3125.64,"endTime":3127.77,"body":"documentation. So when somebody"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3127.77,"endTime":3130.68,"body":"had does have to make a mistake,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3127.77,"endTime":3130.68,"body":"I don't have to go and shake"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3130.68,"endTime":3133.74,"body":"Tracy Bannon at three in the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3130.68,"endTime":3133.74,"body":"morning because she was the last"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3133.74,"endTime":3137.37,"body":"one to touch it 15 years ago,"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3133.74,"endTime":3137.37,"body":"which is what happens."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3137.76,"endTime":3141.27,"body":"But we early on the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3137.76,"endTime":3141.27,"body":"company in Europe bank in Europe"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3141.27,"endTime":3144.81,"body":"invited Damon Edwards and myself"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3141.27,"endTime":3144.81,"body":"to do an internal DevOpsDays."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3145.38,"endTime":3148.23,"body":"And Damon made the mistake of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3145.38,"endTime":3148.23,"body":"mentioning that I started my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3148.23,"endTime":3152.76,"body":"career as an IBM mainframe"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3148.23,"endTime":3152.76,"body":"assembler coder. And like that I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3152.76,"endTime":3156.84,"body":"hadn't touched a mainframe"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3152.76,"endTime":3156.84,"body":"assembler for at least 10 or 15"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3156.84,"endTime":3161.01,"body":"years at that point. And why it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3156.84,"endTime":3161.01,"body":"just my day was over. I was"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3161.88,"endTime":3165.42,"body":"warm you please"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3161.88,"endTime":3165.42,"body":"draw and tell us help us you"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3165.42,"endTime":3171.0,"body":"know. I totally get it. Ways"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3165.42,"endTime":3171.0,"body":"that we can use this for good"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3171.06,"endTime":3172.77,"body":"there are ways we can use it for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3171.06,"endTime":3172.77,"body":"good."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3173.13,"endTime":3175.35,"body":"How do people find"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3173.13,"endTime":3175.35,"body":"I mean, you're out there it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3175.35,"endTime":3179.07,"body":"pretty easy to find. But if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3175.35,"endTime":3179.07,"body":"people were you know, like I am"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3179.07,"endTime":3182.7,"body":"fascinated by you know your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3179.07,"endTime":3182.7,"body":"conversations and in the way you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3182.7,"endTime":3185.46,"body":"think about the problems if they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3182.7,"endTime":3185.46,"body":"wanted to reach out to you how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3185.46,"endTime":3185.58,"body":"would"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3185.58,"endTime":3187.83,"body":"they sure so"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3185.58,"endTime":3187.83,"body":"professionally, they can hit me"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3187.83,"endTime":3190.29,"body":"on LinkedIn just search for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3187.83,"endTime":3190.29,"body":"Tracy ban and you'll see the"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3190.29,"endTime":3195.21,"body":"pink hair. You can also hit up"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3190.29,"endTime":3195.21,"body":"my my it's a my email, not my"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3195.21,"endTime":3198.45,"body":"home email. But I have an email"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3195.21,"endTime":3198.45,"body":"for just for this. It's trace"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3198.45,"endTime":3203.82,"body":"tra see at Tracy Bannon dot"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3198.45,"endTime":3203.82,"body":"tech, hit me up at an email."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3204.51,"endTime":3207.36,"body":"Always glad to hop on phones"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3204.51,"endTime":3207.36,"body":"with folks. I have my calendar"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3207.36,"endTime":3210.3,"body":"online and I set time aside so"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3207.36,"endTime":3210.3,"body":"that we can just have these"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3210.3,"endTime":3214.38,"body":"conversations and noodle event."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3210.3,"endTime":3214.38,"body":"Yeah, that'd be the main way."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3215.219,"endTime":3218.519,"body":"I'll definitely see"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3215.219,"endTime":3218.519,"body":"you at RSA. Yes. So I'll be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3218.519,"endTime":3222.359,"body":"good. And yeah, no, this was it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3218.519,"endTime":3222.359,"body":"was great. I really enjoyed it."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":3222.419,"endTime":3222.779,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3224.04,"endTime":3226.08,"body":"thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3224.04,"endTime":3226.08,"body":"I appreciate the invite for"},{"speaker":"Tracy Bannon","startTime":3226.08,"endTime":3226.41,"body":"sure."}]}