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How you know that there"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":535.32,"endTime":538.95,"body":"was some debate from some of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":538.95,"endTime":542.19,"body":"students if they, you know, if"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":538.95,"endTime":542.19,"body":"they got sick, and they needed"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":542.19,"endTime":545.97,"body":"medicine or and like whether"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":542.19,"endTime":545.97,"body":"they should give medicine? Or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":545.97,"endTime":549.12,"body":"should they go, you know, with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":545.97,"endTime":549.12,"body":"spirits and magic, right? Like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":549.12,"endTime":551.43,"body":"which is, you know, not really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":549.12,"endTime":551.43,"body":"making fun of it. That was the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":551.43,"endTime":555.48,"body":"way that was the culture. Yes."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":551.43,"endTime":555.48,"body":"And I thought that to me, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":555.48,"endTime":558.12,"body":"know, you had a similar story in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":555.48,"endTime":558.12,"body":"our correspondence about, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":558.12,"endTime":561.72,"body":"how, you know, how you, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":558.12,"endTime":561.72,"body":"students that grew the best"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":561.72,"endTime":565.08,"body":"crops, instead of them just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":561.72,"endTime":565.08,"body":"telling other people how to show"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":565.08,"endTime":568.53,"body":"them, the, you know, what they"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":565.08,"endTime":568.53,"body":"did? And I think those are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":568.53,"endTime":572.76,"body":"really good stories about how,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":568.53,"endTime":572.76,"body":"you know, I think about so how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":572.76,"endTime":575.64,"body":"do you change culture? And I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":572.76,"endTime":575.64,"body":"think one of the brilliance is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":575.64,"endTime":579.15,"body":"of Demings, you know, probably"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":575.64,"endTime":579.15,"body":"primary thesis or do you want to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":579.15,"endTime":582.15,"body":"call it system profound"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":579.15,"endTime":582.15,"body":"knowledge, right, is the theory"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":582.15,"endTime":585.57,"body":"of psychology. And I thought"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":582.15,"endTime":585.57,"body":"that, that, you know, when you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":585.57,"endTime":587.91,"body":"said, you know, to the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":585.57,"endTime":587.91,"body":"particularly on the first day"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":587.91,"endTime":590.58,"body":"discussion, you said to the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":587.91,"endTime":590.58,"body":"students, you know, like, hey,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":590.58,"endTime":594.33,"body":"why don't you take this medicine"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":590.58,"endTime":594.33,"body":"and if this doesn't work, then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":594.33,"endTime":597.75,"body":"go to the village and get you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":594.33,"endTime":597.75,"body":"know, you know, where I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":598.41,"endTime":601.68,"body":"one of my memories were like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":598.41,"endTime":601.68,"body":"You Some of the other people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":601.68,"endTime":605.37,"body":"arguing like that stupid"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":601.68,"endTime":605.37,"body":"witchcraft or spirits and magic"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":605.37,"endTime":608.04,"body":"will never work. And your take"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":605.37,"endTime":608.04,"body":"was like, that's the wrong"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":608.04,"endTime":612.21,"body":"approach. For a culture that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":608.04,"endTime":612.21,"body":"doesn't understand, I just, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":612.21,"endTime":616.14,"body":"think, to me, you nailed the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":612.21,"endTime":616.14,"body":"cultural part of, you know, how"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":616.14,"endTime":617.4,"body":"do we change people?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":619.619,"endTime":623.939,"body":"Right. 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Like how did you get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":715.469,"endTime":719.309,"body":"from sort of that story being"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":719.309,"endTime":722.009,"body":"tell the story and and how's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":719.309,"endTime":722.009,"body":"your professional relationship"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":722.009,"endTime":722.969,"body":"with Dr. Deming?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":724.47,"endTime":728.37,"body":"Yeah, well, my, I think"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":724.47,"endTime":728.37,"body":"the thing that is most"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":728.37,"endTime":731.13,"body":"interesting, people always"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":728.37,"endTime":731.13,"body":"asking me, so how did you meet"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":731.13,"endTime":734.91,"body":"Dr. Wu, how did you get to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":731.13,"endTime":734.91,"body":"travel with him? 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And so one particular"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":771.0,"endTime":776.01,"body":"conference, probably about 100"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":776.01,"endTime":779.94,"body":"of us would stay out of the 800."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":776.01,"endTime":779.94,"body":"And so we would, we were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":779.94,"endTime":784.29,"body":"discussing leadership. And one"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":779.94,"endTime":784.29,"body":"of the things that we talked"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":784.29,"endTime":788.28,"body":"about was what is the role of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":784.29,"endTime":788.28,"body":"leaders and of course, Deming"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":788.28,"endTime":791.85,"body":"talked a lot about the role of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":788.28,"endTime":791.85,"body":"leaders. 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I had"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":822.51,"endTime":825.54,"body":"just come back from New Guinea."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":822.51,"endTime":825.54,"body":"And I said, our students there"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":825.54,"endTime":830.22,"body":"had no standing in the village."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":825.54,"endTime":830.22,"body":"And so how could we teach the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":830.22,"endTime":834.6,"body":"villagers a different way, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":830.22,"endTime":834.6,"body":"know, flash and burn used to be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":834.6,"endTime":839.25,"body":"what they would do. But people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":834.6,"endTime":839.25,"body":"were not dying as much from"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":839.25,"endTime":842.28,"body":"infections and from malaria. 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You know, would you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":978.42,"endTime":982.92,"body":"agree with that, or?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":983.28,"endTime":986.55,"body":"Yeah, and, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":983.28,"endTime":986.55,"body":"remember hearing that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":986.55,"endTime":991.95,"body":"he's never been a manager, he's,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":986.55,"endTime":991.95,"body":"but as a consultant, especially,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":992.01,"endTime":995.4,"body":"you know, early on, even before"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":992.01,"endTime":995.4,"body":"Japan, when he was still working"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":995.4,"endTime":998.97,"body":"for the Census Department, or,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":995.4,"endTime":998.97,"body":"you know, did an internship at"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":998.97,"endTime":1003.83,"body":"Hawthorne, and he would listen"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":998.97,"endTime":1003.83,"body":"to people, as a consultant. He'd"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1003.83,"endTime":1008.0,"body":"say, now tell me about this, or"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1003.83,"endTime":1008.0,"body":"what do you, you know, how does"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1008.0,"endTime":1012.32,"body":"this work for you? Where, and I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1008.0,"endTime":1012.32,"body":"think that's the part that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1012.32,"endTime":1017.81,"body":"people don't realize that he"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1012.32,"endTime":1017.81,"body":"collected data on how people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1017.81,"endTime":1021.92,"body":"were managed for, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1017.81,"endTime":1021.92,"body":"mean, he was a postdoc in his"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1021.92,"endTime":1029.45,"body":"20s. He died at 93. That's a lot"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1021.92,"endTime":1029.45,"body":"of years. No, you know, so he"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1029.45,"endTime":1029.96,"body":"may not."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1031.22,"endTime":1034.7,"body":"Yeah, I mean, not,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1031.22,"endTime":1034.7,"body":"I'm not trying to say that. Any"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1034.73,"endTime":1038.18,"body":"space that academics in but a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1034.73,"endTime":1038.18,"body":"good friend of mine, Jean Kim,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1038.18,"endTime":1042.32,"body":"who's written sort of co author"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1038.18,"endTime":1042.32,"body":"with him, but he's very well"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1042.32,"endTime":1046.85,"body":"known author in our area, and he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1042.32,"endTime":1046.85,"body":"calls me one of the greatest"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1047.0,"endTime":1050.69,"body":"boundary spanners that he knows."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1047.0,"endTime":1050.69,"body":"You know, I think that's, that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1050.69,"endTime":1053.45,"body":"that relentless. You You said"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1050.69,"endTime":1053.45,"body":"something like Deming was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1053.78,"endTime":1057.17,"body":"relentlessly curious, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1053.78,"endTime":1057.17,"body":"and I think that I love that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1057.17,"endTime":1060.02,"body":"because I, you know, again, not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1057.17,"endTime":1060.02,"body":"trying to compare myself to Dr."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1060.02,"endTime":1064.07,"body":"Deming by any means, but, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1060.02,"endTime":1064.07,"body":"like, that defines me, like I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1064.07,"endTime":1067.79,"body":"loved sort of looking at, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1064.07,"endTime":1067.79,"body":"know, I, you know, like the,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1067.82,"endTime":1070.82,"body":"even the Library of Congress,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1067.82,"endTime":1070.82,"body":"and his correspondence is clear"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1070.82,"endTime":1074.6,"body":"that he just, like, if he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1070.82,"endTime":1074.6,"body":"interested, he said that he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1074.63,"endTime":1077.42,"body":"wrote a letter to you sounded"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1074.63,"endTime":1077.42,"body":"like, he was interested in you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1077.42,"endTime":1081.02,"body":"and invited you to, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1077.42,"endTime":1081.02,"body":"travel with him, you know, which"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1081.02,"endTime":1082.94,"body":"is, I think, just fascinating,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1081.02,"endTime":1082.94,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1083.81,"endTime":1086.9,"body":"Yeah. What a gift. Real"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1083.81,"endTime":1086.9,"body":"gift."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1087.26,"endTime":1089.75,"body":"Yeah. So, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1087.26,"endTime":1089.75,"body":"I think, well, then you had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1089.75,"endTime":1091.85,"body":"another one given. So I love"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1089.75,"endTime":1091.85,"body":"some of your stories, too. Like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1091.85,"endTime":1094.4,"body":"you said that, you know, a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1091.85,"endTime":1094.4,"body":"little later in your travels, he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1094.4,"endTime":1098.63,"body":"was doing the seminar to some of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1094.4,"endTime":1098.63,"body":"the in Detroit. And he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1098.63,"endTime":1101.15,"body":"talking about the merit system."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1098.63,"endTime":1101.15,"body":"And Toyota pointed out like, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1101.15,"endTime":1103.07,"body":"let me tell you that there's one"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1101.15,"endTime":1103.07,"body":"story, right."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1106.28,"endTime":1109.7,"body":"But that was really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1106.28,"endTime":1109.7,"body":"interesting, because the three"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1109.7,"endTime":1114.29,"body":"big automakers were jointly"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1109.7,"endTime":1114.29,"body":"sponsoring it was the ASQ. See,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1114.32,"endTime":1117.38,"body":"they, you know, they dropped"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1114.32,"endTime":1117.38,"body":"the, I guess now it's in his"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1117.38,"endTime":1121.97,"body":"queue, but, and so they had"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1117.38,"endTime":1121.97,"body":"quite a big fanfare, and there"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1121.97,"endTime":1127.22,"body":"was a huge group and a big"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1121.97,"endTime":1127.22,"body":"banquet. And so after a while,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1127.22,"endTime":1134.12,"body":"they asked Dr. Deming to speak,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1127.22,"endTime":1134.12,"body":"and he just laid into a sq see,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1134.42,"endTime":1139.88,"body":"you know, how come you still are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1134.42,"endTime":1139.88,"body":"having annual appraisals, how"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1139.88,"endTime":1143.33,"body":"come the ASQ C is not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1139.88,"endTime":1143.33,"body":"championing the abolishment of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1143.33,"endTime":1147.89,"body":"such a terrible thing? And our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1143.33,"endTime":1147.89,"body":"management practices are like"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1147.89,"endTime":1151.07,"body":"what Doris Quinn saw and Papa"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1147.89,"endTime":1151.07,"body":"New Guinea? Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1151.07,"endTime":1156.29,"body":"awesome. Yeah. Magic in the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1151.07,"endTime":1156.29,"body":"spirit. Yeah. So he was really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1156.32,"endTime":1158.09,"body":"he was tough on them. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1158.09,"endTime":1160.82,"body":"no, I love it. I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1158.09,"endTime":1160.82,"body":"mean, I was telling you last"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1160.82,"endTime":1164.09,"body":"time we talked that there's a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1160.82,"endTime":1164.09,"body":"video out there some reasonably"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1164.27,"endTime":1167.57,"body":"humorous clips of him. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1164.27,"endTime":1167.57,"body":"there's a there's a question"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1167.57,"endTime":1170.12,"body":"that somebody asked in their"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1167.57,"endTime":1170.12,"body":"seminar and he, you know, he's,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1170.12,"endTime":1172.52,"body":"he's older because he can't hear"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1170.12,"endTime":1172.52,"body":"and he's got somebody who has to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1172.52,"endTime":1174.74,"body":"answer questions. So somebody"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1172.52,"endTime":1174.74,"body":"asked, the question is, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1174.74,"endTime":1178.16,"body":"know, how would you improve the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1174.74,"endTime":1178.16,"body":"merit system? And then he asked"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1178.16,"endTime":1182.15,"body":"his assistant to sort of tell"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1178.16,"endTime":1182.15,"body":"him what it is. And he says, he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1182.15,"endTime":1186.26,"body":"gets like, angry goes improve."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1182.15,"endTime":1186.26,"body":"He says, Could you think of a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1186.26,"endTime":1189.98,"body":"better system to destroy humans?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1186.26,"endTime":1189.98,"body":"You know, like, how would you?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1190.31,"endTime":1193.55,"body":"What improvement would you make?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1190.31,"endTime":1193.55,"body":"And then the poor student and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1193.55,"endTime":1196.25,"body":"ask, well, then, what would you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1193.55,"endTime":1196.25,"body":"replace it when he's like, then"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1196.25,"endTime":1199.97,"body":"he even gets even matter. He"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1196.25,"endTime":1199.97,"body":"says replace? He says abolish"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1200.0,"endTime":1204.86,"body":"thing for God's sakes. And so he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1200.0,"endTime":1204.86,"body":"didn't like Merit Systems, which"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1204.89,"endTime":1208.31,"body":"means I don't either. So I, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1204.89,"endTime":1208.31,"body":"know, another reason why I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1208.31,"endTime":1211.1,"body":"there's, you know, I feel this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1208.31,"endTime":1211.1,"body":"kinship with him, I was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1211.1,"endTime":1214.73,"body":"gonna say, as a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1211.1,"endTime":1214.73,"body":"manager, I hated doing those"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1214.73,"endTime":1221.0,"body":"annual appraisals. And the more"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1214.73,"endTime":1221.0,"body":"difficult it got, the more HR"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1221.0,"endTime":1225.86,"body":"would try to Well, now, let me"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1221.0,"endTime":1225.86,"body":"show you 32 pages of verbs that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1225.86,"endTime":1231.38,"body":"you can use, and it's just crazy"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1225.86,"endTime":1231.38,"body":"how we still tried to pitch an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1231.38,"endTime":1232.58,"body":"old people."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1232.999,"endTime":1235.729,"body":"No, I it's still"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1232.999,"endTime":1235.729,"body":"it's the rapid I mean, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1235.729,"endTime":1238.369,"body":"our industry just renames it,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1235.729,"endTime":1238.369,"body":"you know, like, people get mad"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1238.369,"endTime":1241.279,"body":"at me. And I say, like, yeah,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1238.369,"endTime":1241.279,"body":"you know, okay, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1241.579,"endTime":1245.119,"body":"originally MPOs, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1241.579,"endTime":1245.119,"body":"became KPIs. And then now, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1245.119,"endTime":1247.969,"body":"know, the, the current Buzet,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1245.119,"endTime":1247.969,"body":"the Googles, and all those"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1247.969,"endTime":1251.029,"body":"places are, okay, ours, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1247.969,"endTime":1251.029,"body":"know, but like, they're, they're"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1251.029,"endTime":1257.539,"body":"deterministic footprints of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1251.029,"endTime":1257.539,"body":"future events, you know, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1257.749,"endTime":1259.969,"body":"these are the things I'm going"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1257.749,"endTime":1259.969,"body":"to set out to do this quarter"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1259.969,"endTime":1262.999,"body":"and for the rest of the year."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1259.969,"endTime":1262.999,"body":"And it's just, it's not honoring"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1262.999,"endTime":1266.149,"body":"the complexity of, of the way"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1262.999,"endTime":1266.149,"body":"things really work. And, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1266.149,"endTime":1269.779,"body":"know, and, and it's in, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1266.149,"endTime":1269.779,"body":"know, I think it's just unfair."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1271.009,"endTime":1273.229,"body":"You know, that, because it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1271.009,"endTime":1273.229,"body":"doesn't take into, say, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1273.229,"endTime":1276.409,"body":"systems themselves, right, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1273.229,"endTime":1276.409,"body":"know, so you're not to get in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1276.409,"endTime":1280.339,"body":"too deep. But the whole red bean"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1276.409,"endTime":1280.339,"body":"thing is like, it's a great"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1280.339,"endTime":1285.829,"body":"example of showing how most of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1280.339,"endTime":1285.829,"body":"those systems are just really,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1285.829,"endTime":1288.199,"body":"they have no value. I did want"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1285.829,"endTime":1288.199,"body":"to talk about theory knowledge,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1288.199,"endTime":1292.339,"body":"though, to know. So you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1288.199,"endTime":1292.339,"body":"there is the kind of don't or do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1292.339,"endTime":1295.039,"body":"want to put you on the spot a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1292.339,"endTime":1295.039,"body":"little bit to do the elevator"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1295.039,"endTime":1299.059,"body":"pitch on system of profound"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1295.039,"endTime":1299.059,"body":"knowledge. You gain for that, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1299.059,"endTime":1301.309,"body":"mean, doesn't have to be gory"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1299.059,"endTime":1301.309,"body":"detail."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1302.33,"endTime":1306.83,"body":"Yeah. Well, I think"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1302.33,"endTime":1306.83,"body":"that in his last book, he really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1306.83,"endTime":1310.37,"body":"outlines a system of profound"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1306.83,"endTime":1310.37,"body":"knowledge. So understanding"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1310.37,"endTime":1315.14,"body":"systems, and for me, that's all"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1310.37,"endTime":1315.14,"body":"about processes. I mean, I am"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1315.14,"endTime":1321.05,"body":"rabid about doing flowcharts."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1315.14,"endTime":1321.05,"body":"Because I think that if you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1321.05,"endTime":1326.78,"body":"don't see all of the steps, it's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1321.05,"endTime":1326.78,"body":"really easy to demoralize people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1326.84,"endTime":1330.8,"body":"understanding variation. You"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1326.84,"endTime":1330.8,"body":"know, again, as a manager, if I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1330.8,"endTime":1334.37,"body":"had a 6% deviance in my budget,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1330.8,"endTime":1334.37,"body":"somebody said, Well, tell me"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1334.37,"endTime":1338.63,"body":"what you did. Well, I don't know"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1334.37,"endTime":1338.63,"body":"what I did. My secretary made it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1338.63,"endTime":1343.49,"body":"up, because I didn't have any"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1338.63,"endTime":1343.49,"body":"data. So all the mischief that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1343.49,"endTime":1346.82,"body":"we do not understanding Common"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1343.49,"endTime":1346.82,"body":"Cause and special cause"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1346.97,"endTime":1351.86,"body":"variation. And then theory of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1346.97,"endTime":1351.86,"body":"knowledge, you know, how do we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1351.86,"endTime":1356.9,"body":"learn? And how do we know what"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1351.86,"endTime":1356.9,"body":"we know? You know, sometimes we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1356.9,"endTime":1360.71,"body":"are so absolutely sure. And it's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1356.9,"endTime":1360.71,"body":"like the kids in New Guinea, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1360.71,"endTime":1364.49,"body":"know, they close their windows"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1360.71,"endTime":1364.49,"body":"at night, because the spirits"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1364.49,"endTime":1369.32,"body":"were out at night. Right? Well,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1364.49,"endTime":1369.32,"body":"how do we know that? You know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1369.35,"endTime":1374.48,"body":"and so this whole notion of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1369.35,"endTime":1374.48,"body":"always questioning what you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1374.48,"endTime":1378.68,"body":"think, you know, and then"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1374.48,"endTime":1378.68,"body":"finally, psychology. And I think"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1378.68,"endTime":1383.09,"body":"that when I went to the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1378.68,"endTime":1383.09,"body":"seminars, probably half to two"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1383.09,"endTime":1388.19,"body":"thirds of the time, Deming did"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1383.09,"endTime":1388.19,"body":"not talk about statistics, he"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1388.19,"endTime":1392.9,"body":"talked about the dignity of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1388.19,"endTime":1392.9,"body":"individual. And I think people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1392.9,"endTime":1396.89,"body":"that feel like they have no"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1392.9,"endTime":1396.89,"body":"standing, they can't speak up,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1396.92,"endTime":1401.51,"body":"because their processes are so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1396.92,"endTime":1401.51,"body":"screwed up. They know data that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1401.51,"endTime":1405.92,"body":"the managers refused to look at,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1401.51,"endTime":1405.92,"body":"then quality is going to suffer."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1405.95,"endTime":1409.85,"body":"So I think even though"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1405.95,"endTime":1409.85,"body":"psychology was kind of like the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1409.85,"endTime":1415.64,"body":"fourth thing, if I was to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1409.85,"endTime":1415.64,"body":"reorder them, I would make that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1415.64,"endTime":1418.7,"body":"number one, because I think"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1415.64,"endTime":1418.7,"body":"that's what he really thought"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1418.7,"endTime":1419.66,"body":"was number one."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1420.38,"endTime":1422.69,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1420.38,"endTime":1422.69,"body":"that's again, I'll tie that back"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1422.69,"endTime":1425.96,"body":"to why I think Deming was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1422.69,"endTime":1425.96,"body":"interested in you so New Guinea"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1425.96,"endTime":1430.58,"body":"story, right, I think, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1425.96,"endTime":1430.58,"body":"it had the, the markings of the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1430.58,"endTime":1433.79,"body":"example through psychology,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1430.58,"endTime":1433.79,"body":"right? In other words, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1433.79,"endTime":1437.09,"body":"so many times will will come in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1433.79,"endTime":1437.09,"body":"with all the science, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1437.27,"endTime":1439.52,"body":"I think the brilliance for me"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1437.27,"endTime":1439.52,"body":"was just around analogies, like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1439.52,"endTime":1443.21,"body":"okay, variation, yes, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1439.52,"endTime":1443.21,"body":"system process control system"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1443.21,"endTime":1446.96,"body":"thinking a little harder, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1443.21,"endTime":1446.96,"body":"like it, there's a lot of data"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1446.99,"endTime":1450.5,"body":"around, you know, that complex"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1446.99,"endTime":1450.5,"body":"adaptive system, adaptive"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1450.5,"endTime":1453.47,"body":"capacity, all those things, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1450.5,"endTime":1453.47,"body":"know, and, you know, variation"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1453.47,"endTime":1456.53,"body":"in, in knowledge, right, like I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1453.47,"endTime":1456.53,"body":"think, you know, that's you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1456.53,"endTime":1459.89,"body":"know, epistemology, or in our do"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1456.53,"endTime":1459.89,"body":"want to circle back to that, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1459.89,"endTime":1463.4,"body":"but in also, like, very simply"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1459.89,"endTime":1463.4,"body":"saying, Plan, Do Check Act or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1463.4,"endTime":1466.34,"body":"something like that. But the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1463.4,"endTime":1466.34,"body":"brilliance of such profound"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1466.34,"endTime":1469.13,"body":"knowledge is you put a lens on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1466.34,"endTime":1469.13,"body":"that very few other people put"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1469.13,"endTime":1473.3,"body":"on, which is like, you could get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1469.13,"endTime":1473.3,"body":"all that right. But if you don't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1473.3,"endTime":1476.21,"body":"understand so like, to your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1473.3,"endTime":1476.21,"body":"point, you know, hundreds of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1476.21,"endTime":1481.19,"body":"years of culture. You couldn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1476.21,"endTime":1481.19,"body":"argue the technology or the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1481.19,"endTime":1484.76,"body":"Gantt charts or the control"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1481.19,"endTime":1484.76,"body":"charts, to people just didn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1484.76,"endTime":1489.5,"body":"believe that medicine solve the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1484.76,"endTime":1489.5,"body":"problem, right. So you had to be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1489.5,"endTime":1493.88,"body":"able to work within the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1489.5,"endTime":1493.88,"body":"psychology. And I think the bias"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1493.88,"endTime":1496.64,"body":"is on both sides, right?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1493.88,"endTime":1496.64,"body":"Sometimes like we come in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1496.64,"endTime":1500.9,"body":"thinking we know the answers"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1496.64,"endTime":1500.9,"body":"like you said earlier or The"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1500.9,"endTime":1503.33,"body":"people that you're trying to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1500.9,"endTime":1503.33,"body":"help change, they might be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1503.33,"endTime":1506.66,"body":"right. They might be wrong, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1503.33,"endTime":1506.66,"body":"know, like, being able to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1506.66,"endTime":1509.36,"body":"arbitrate. That whole theory of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1506.66,"endTime":1509.36,"body":"psychology, I think is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1509.36,"endTime":1509.9,"body":"important."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1512.599,"endTime":1515.659,"body":"I can't remember if we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1512.599,"endTime":1515.659,"body":"talked about this book when we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1515.659,"endTime":1520.039,"body":"first spoke, but there's a book"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1515.659,"endTime":1520.039,"body":"called on being wrong by"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1520.039,"endTime":1525.349,"body":"Katherine Schultz. And that book"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1520.039,"endTime":1525.349,"body":"had a profound influence on me."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1525.379,"endTime":1529.129,"body":"And I think it's very much"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1525.379,"endTime":1529.129,"body":"theory of knowledge. 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And so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1558.709,"endTime":1562.189,"body":"we wanted to be able to touch"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1562.189,"endTime":1567.649,"body":"more people. And, you know, it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1562.189,"endTime":1567.649,"body":"was all a matter of trusting my"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1567.649,"endTime":1571.159,"body":"educators being able to say, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1567.649,"endTime":1571.159,"body":"know, I don't have the answer."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1571.159,"endTime":1575.449,"body":"I'm not sure how to do this. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1571.159,"endTime":1575.449,"body":"I think those are the managers"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1575.479,"endTime":1579.259,"body":"that do the best job, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1575.479,"endTime":1579.259,"body":"trust the people that you've"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1579.259,"endTime":1583.579,"body":"hired. If you've hired idiots,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1579.259,"endTime":1583.579,"body":"then this is a Mayakoba moment."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1584.45,"endTime":1587.18,"body":"Okay. Yeah, I had a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1584.45,"endTime":1587.18,"body":"call with a good friend this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1587.18,"endTime":1590.27,"body":"morning. There's a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1587.18,"endTime":1590.27,"body":"studies in complex systems and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1590.27,"endTime":1593.87,"body":"adaptive capacity. And, and he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1590.27,"endTime":1593.87,"body":"made this comment this morning,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1593.87,"endTime":1596.24,"body":"which is, you know, we've talked"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1593.87,"endTime":1596.24,"body":"about some help some people in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1596.24,"endTime":1599.27,"body":"our industry will call things a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1596.24,"endTime":1599.27,"body":"science. And, you know, he made"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1599.27,"endTime":1602.09,"body":"this great quote is that you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1599.27,"endTime":1602.09,"body":"can't call the science unless"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1602.09,"endTime":1606.29,"body":"you can prove all the things"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1602.09,"endTime":1606.29,"body":"that you've done wrong. You"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1606.29,"endTime":1609.5,"body":"know, you know, a different that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1606.29,"endTime":1609.5,"body":"was an interesting like, that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1609.5,"endTime":1612.56,"body":"like site, and I think that ties"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1609.5,"endTime":1612.56,"body":"back into Plan, Do Check Act,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1612.56,"endTime":1616.07,"body":"right, which is, you know, that,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1612.56,"endTime":1616.07,"body":"like, there is really there's no"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1616.07,"endTime":1620.45,"body":"such thing as right or wrong."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1616.07,"endTime":1620.45,"body":"It's, it's an experiment. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1620.48,"endTime":1623.42,"body":"there's a results, and the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1620.48,"endTime":1623.42,"body":"analysis of the results"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1623.42,"endTime":1631.22,"body":"determined. The next step, or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1623.42,"endTime":1631.22,"body":"multiple scopes. 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So I'm going to get"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1639.65,"endTime":1644.18,"body":"him on a podcast to tell me and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1644.18,"endTime":1647.72,"body":"he's actually a damning fan,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1644.18,"endTime":1647.72,"body":"too. So tell me about CI Lewis's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1647.72,"endTime":1650.48,"body":"mind and newer world order. 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And, and but what I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1670.07,"endTime":1673.28,"body":"didn't realize was that, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1670.07,"endTime":1673.28,"body":"know, he was also heavily"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1673.28,"endTime":1677.3,"body":"influenced by philosophy, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1673.28,"endTime":1677.3,"body":"particularly, supposedly sure"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1677.36,"endTime":1681.77,"body":"told him, Hey, you need to read"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1677.36,"endTime":1681.77,"body":"this book by CS Lewis. And it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1681.77,"endTime":1685.16,"body":"was a major in that it was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1681.77,"endTime":1685.16,"body":"really daunting of pragmatism."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1685.88,"endTime":1688.22,"body":"And, you know, and how that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1685.88,"endTime":1688.22,"body":"played in the way he was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1688.22,"endTime":1691.22,"body":"thinking. And I think we all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1688.22,"endTime":1691.22,"body":"agree even Deming said that it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1691.22,"endTime":1695.24,"body":"was the hardest book you've ever"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1691.22,"endTime":1695.24,"body":"read. Like, so. But but but but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1695.24,"endTime":1698.12,"body":"you had mentioned like you that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1695.24,"endTime":1698.12,"body":"you felt that that was a big"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1698.12,"endTime":1699.56,"body":"influence on him as well, right?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1701.51,"endTime":1704.54,"body":"Yeah, yeah. He, he"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1701.51,"endTime":1704.54,"body":"talked about it. The thing that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1704.54,"endTime":1708.14,"body":"was really cool about being able"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1704.54,"endTime":1708.14,"body":"to travel with him is that after"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1708.14,"endTime":1712.16,"body":"a long day, whether or not we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1708.14,"endTime":1712.16,"body":"would go back to his home in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1712.16,"endTime":1716.93,"body":"Washington, or we were in a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1712.16,"endTime":1716.93,"body":"hotel, and after dinner, he"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1716.93,"endTime":1721.79,"body":"loved gin. Tangri gin was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1716.93,"endTime":1721.79,"body":"favorite. So we would have, we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1721.79,"endTime":1727.01,"body":"would have our gin, he said it."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1721.79,"endTime":1727.01,"body":"But those were the moments that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1727.01,"endTime":1732.56,"body":"we could have conversations"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1727.01,"endTime":1732.56,"body":"about, you know, his kids and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1732.56,"endTime":1737.33,"body":"his wife died in 86. And so I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1732.56,"endTime":1737.33,"body":"met him in 88. So, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1737.33,"endTime":1741.89,"body":"Lola had just died. But one of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1737.33,"endTime":1741.89,"body":"the things was the fact that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1741.92,"endTime":1746.84,"body":"Shewhart was the one who was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1741.92,"endTime":1746.84,"body":"heavily influenced by Louis and,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1747.38,"endTime":1750.68,"body":"and I think that as I asked him"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1747.38,"endTime":1750.68,"body":"about it, I said, Dr. Deming, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1750.68,"endTime":1754.4,"body":"got an old copy of this book,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1750.68,"endTime":1754.4,"body":"and I said, I don't understand."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1755.69,"endTime":1759.53,"body":"Well, you know, he did say in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1755.69,"endTime":1759.53,"body":"his class to start a chapter six"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1759.53,"endTime":1762.59,"body":"or seven, don't start at the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1759.53,"endTime":1762.59,"body":"beginning. And so I think that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1762.62,"endTime":1768.17,"body":"there was a lot more in his"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1762.62,"endTime":1768.17,"body":"background, he was really, as I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1768.17,"endTime":1773.81,"body":"said, a relentless learner. So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1768.17,"endTime":1773.81,"body":"he did talk about that the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1773.81,"endTime":1777.95,"body":"influence of that book and being"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1773.81,"endTime":1777.95,"body":"able to it's why theory of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1777.95,"endTime":1781.04,"body":"knowledge was so important in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1777.95,"endTime":1781.04,"body":"his profound knowledge."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1781.46,"endTime":1783.8,"body":"Yeah, no, I you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1781.46,"endTime":1783.8,"body":"know, I think, you know, again,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1783.98,"endTime":1786.5,"body":"comparing myself to the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1783.98,"endTime":1786.5,"body":"brilliance of that guy, but a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1786.77,"endTime":1790.67,"body":"good friend of mine who is in my"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1786.77,"endTime":1790.67,"body":"industry, you know, he's, he's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1790.67,"endTime":1793.73,"body":"developed a whole genre of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1790.67,"endTime":1793.73,"body":"software and he was a physicist"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1793.73,"endTime":1798.14,"body":"that became a computer science"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1793.73,"endTime":1798.14,"body":"professor in any created a whole"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1798.14,"endTime":1801.77,"body":"product, open source product"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1798.14,"endTime":1801.77,"body":"that He's become a good friend"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1801.77,"endTime":1804.11,"body":"of mine. But he wrote a book in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1801.77,"endTime":1804.11,"body":"search of certainty. And it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1804.11,"endTime":1807.44,"body":"basically a physics view on it."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1804.11,"endTime":1807.44,"body":"And I've had to read that book."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1807.92,"endTime":1811.55,"body":"You know, I think Deming said he"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1807.92,"endTime":1811.55,"body":"had to read a read CS Lewis book"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1811.55,"endTime":1814.91,"body":"six times, I've had to read"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1811.55,"endTime":1814.91,"body":"Mark's book four or five times,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1815.24,"endTime":1817.91,"body":"to, you know, to to get it"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1815.24,"endTime":1817.91,"body":"straight. I guess that's the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1817.91,"endTime":1820.43,"body":"point of people who are"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1817.91,"endTime":1820.43,"body":"relentless, you know, learners,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1820.43,"endTime":1825.14,"body":"right. And I think that sums up"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1820.43,"endTime":1825.14,"body":"the theory of their vows very"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1825.14,"endTime":1827.51,"body":"well. The other area that we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1825.14,"endTime":1827.51,"body":"talked about, which I think is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1827.51,"endTime":1831.38,"body":"sort of just fascinating, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1827.51,"endTime":1831.38,"body":"Deming isms, right is you didn't"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1831.41,"endTime":1834.65,"body":"suffer fools, right, like, so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1831.41,"endTime":1834.65,"body":"you had some, like we talked"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1834.65,"endTime":1836.93,"body":"about, like, how, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1834.65,"endTime":1836.93,"body":"like, he just didn't like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1836.93,"endTime":1840.38,"body":"grandstanding or it? You know, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1836.93,"endTime":1840.38,"body":"think that again, why I feel I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1840.38,"endTime":1844.22,"body":"would connect so well with him."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1840.38,"endTime":1844.22,"body":"In my travels, I you know, the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1844.22,"endTime":1846.68,"body":"people that ask a question that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1844.22,"endTime":1846.68,"body":"a religious want to tell the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1846.68,"endTime":1850.04,"body":"rest of the class, how smart"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1846.68,"endTime":1850.04,"body":"they are, like zero tolerance"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1850.04,"endTime":1850.55,"body":"for that?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1852.23,"endTime":1856.67,"body":"Yeah. So I often would"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1852.23,"endTime":1856.67,"body":"see that in the seminars,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1856.88,"endTime":1860.99,"body":"because if I was his assistant,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1856.88,"endTime":1860.99,"body":"I was the one who had to repeat"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1860.99,"endTime":1865.79,"body":"the questions, if he hadn't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1860.99,"endTime":1865.79,"body":"heard it. And sometimes I'd hear"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1865.79,"endTime":1870.32,"body":"the question, and I wanted to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1865.79,"endTime":1870.32,"body":"say, I don't think you want to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1870.32,"endTime":1871.16,"body":"answer this."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1872.09,"endTime":1875.27,"body":"Yeah, then he could"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1872.09,"endTime":1875.27,"body":"play that. Could I? 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So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1987.08,"endTime":1991.94,"body":"later on that evening, but in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1991.94,"endTime":1996.62,"body":"our, you know, our special quiet"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1991.94,"endTime":1996.62,"body":"times after dinner with Deming"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1996.62,"endTime":1997.52,"body":"was quite"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1998.9,"endTime":2000.94,"body":"huh, your gym time?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":1998.9,"endTime":2000.94,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2000.97,"endTime":2006.13,"body":"our Gin Tonics. And so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2000.97,"endTime":2006.13,"body":"he finally said, I should not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2006.13,"endTime":2010.6,"body":"have been so hard on her. It's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2006.13,"endTime":2010.6,"body":"not her fault. 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And, you know, I could"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2252.67,"endTime":2255.25,"body":"deal with any students, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2255.28,"endTime":2257.47,"body":"you know, to the professor,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2255.28,"endTime":2257.47,"body":"like, you recommend some of your"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2257.47,"endTime":2260.71,"body":"top students, but you can't just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2257.47,"endTime":2260.71,"body":"send me a resume, what you need"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2260.71,"endTime":2263.71,"body":"to do is figure out all the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2260.71,"endTime":2263.71,"body":"things, I've got tons of stuff"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2263.71,"endTime":2267.91,"body":"out there, like and write up"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2263.71,"endTime":2267.91,"body":"something by just figuring out"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2267.91,"endTime":2271.42,"body":"who I am and what I talk about,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2267.91,"endTime":2271.42,"body":"that might sweat. And it's not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2271.42,"endTime":2274.48,"body":"an ego thing. For me, it's like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2271.42,"endTime":2274.48,"body":"I will know that you're a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2274.48,"endTime":2277.36,"body":"learner, and then I will take"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2274.48,"endTime":2277.36,"body":"you to somebody who I know is at"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2277.36,"endTime":2281.59,"body":"Nike, or at Disney or people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2277.36,"endTime":2281.59,"body":"that are, you know, leaders in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2281.59,"endTime":2285.76,"body":"those positions. But like very"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2281.59,"endTime":2285.76,"body":"much again, I keep apologizing"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2285.76,"endTime":2288.37,"body":"for comparing myself to Deming,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2285.76,"endTime":2288.37,"body":"but but like, you know, that's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2288.37,"endTime":2291.55,"body":"the way I do things is I want to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2288.37,"endTime":2291.55,"body":"see, if I'm going to recommend"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2291.55,"endTime":2294.43,"body":"you to some person, it's not"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2291.55,"endTime":2294.43,"body":"just that you got straight A's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2294.43,"endTime":2298.3,"body":"or even that you studied the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2294.43,"endTime":2298.3,"body":"work that is important. It's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2298.3,"endTime":2301.48,"body":"that you're relentless learner."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2298.3,"endTime":2301.48,"body":"And so that's such a great"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2301.48,"endTime":2305.29,"body":"litmus test for me is like, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2301.48,"endTime":2305.29,"body":"know, write something up that"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2305.29,"endTime":2308.98,"body":"you think I'd be interested in."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2305.29,"endTime":2308.98,"body":"You know, so yeah, that's pretty"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2308.98,"endTime":2311.53,"body":"cool. The other thing that we,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2308.98,"endTime":2311.53,"body":"you know, I think we, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2311.56,"endTime":2313.99,"body":"you know, get a couple more"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2311.56,"endTime":2313.99,"body":"topics to talk about, but I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2313.99,"endTime":2316.51,"body":"think the other interesting"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2313.99,"endTime":2316.51,"body":"thing is, you know, why is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2316.51,"endTime":2320.05,"body":"health care plays Deming, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2316.51,"endTime":2320.05,"body":"when I, you know, I was telling"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2320.05,"endTime":2323.11,"body":"you earlier, you know, my first"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2320.05,"endTime":2323.11,"body":"podcast is with this friend of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2323.11,"endTime":2326.02,"body":"mine who introduced me to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2323.11,"endTime":2326.02,"body":"Deming, you know, and he went"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2326.02,"endTime":2328.81,"body":"right into, I was a big goal rap"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2326.02,"endTime":2328.81,"body":"fan, and he was like, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2328.81,"endTime":2332.02,"body":"you got to read Deming, it all"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2328.81,"endTime":2332.02,"body":"starts with Deming. Okay, just"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2332.02,"endTime":2334.96,"body":"read like five or six books from"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2332.02,"endTime":2334.96,"body":"goal, right. And, and I felt"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2334.96,"endTime":2338.35,"body":"like, I had all the answers and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2334.96,"endTime":2338.35,"body":"like, oh, man, now I gotta go"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2338.35,"endTime":2340.9,"body":"read all about this other guy I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2338.35,"endTime":2340.9,"body":"never heard of and, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2340.9,"endTime":2343.15,"body":"and so I go in and I like I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2340.9,"endTime":2343.15,"body":"said, in the first thing, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2343.15,"endTime":2344.86,"body":"start you running through the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2343.15,"endTime":2344.86,"body":"system for about an hour. That's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2344.86,"endTime":2349.6,"body":"right. And in New Economics is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2344.86,"endTime":2349.6,"body":"great, but like, it was hard for"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2349.6,"endTime":2353.23,"body":"me to grok the examples"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2349.6,"endTime":2353.23,"body":"assistant professor now it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2353.23,"endTime":2355.87,"body":"particularly the variation was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2353.23,"endTime":2355.87,"body":"simple, you know, I think theory"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2355.87,"endTime":2359.08,"body":"knowledge reasonably and system"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2355.87,"endTime":2359.08,"body":"thinking, but it was it was"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2359.08,"endTime":2362.74,"body":"actually the theory psychology"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2359.08,"endTime":2362.74,"body":"that stopped me. And I went out"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2362.74,"endTime":2366.25,"body":"and every The only things I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2362.74,"endTime":2366.25,"body":"found were on the internet or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2366.25,"endTime":2370.6,"body":"all healthcare examples. And"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2366.25,"endTime":2370.6,"body":"like, really good examples, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2370.6,"endTime":2373.75,"body":"I realized that wow, healthcare"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2370.6,"endTime":2373.75,"body":"really got into that dynamic."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2373.99,"endTime":2376.54,"body":"And so I'd asked you when we had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2373.99,"endTime":2376.54,"body":"a call earlier, like, Why did"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2376.54,"endTime":2378.76,"body":"health care? You know, why is"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2376.54,"endTime":2378.76,"body":"health care seems to be one or"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2378.76,"endTime":2381.58,"body":"more, you know, most people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2378.76,"endTime":2381.58,"body":"think it was manufacturing, but"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2381.58,"endTime":2385.99,"body":"it seems to me if you if you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2381.58,"endTime":2385.99,"body":"survey the internet, I think the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2385.99,"endTime":2388.36,"body":"health care people seem to have"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2385.99,"endTime":2388.36,"body":"taken his work The farthest."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2391.03,"endTime":2394.06,"body":"Well, I think the first"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2391.03,"endTime":2394.06,"body":"thing is that we bury our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2394.06,"endTime":2402.19,"body":"mistakes. 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And they said,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2423.61,"endTime":2427.78,"body":"Well, it depends. If Doctor A is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2427.78,"endTime":2432.43,"body":"on duty, this is what we do. If"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2427.78,"endTime":2432.43,"body":"Dr. B's on duty the doctor sees"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2432.43,"endTime":2436.42,"body":"on duty. And so when I went to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2432.43,"endTime":2436.42,"body":"the three hepatologist, that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2436.42,"endTime":2440.56,"body":"liver experts, and I said, Okay,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2436.42,"endTime":2440.56,"body":"you guys do a three different"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2440.56,"endTime":2445.87,"body":"ways. Who's best? 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And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2483.82,"endTime":2490.42,"body":"I think that we finally had to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2490.45,"endTime":2494.74,"body":"own up to the fact that our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2490.45,"endTime":2494.74,"body":"systems were really screwed up."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2494.74,"endTime":2498.16,"body":"And I hate to tell you, I still"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2494.74,"endTime":2498.16,"body":"teach in health care, and we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2498.16,"endTime":2501.88,"body":"still have screwed up systems,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2498.16,"endTime":2501.88,"body":"right? We don't understand data."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2502.06,"endTime":2506.26,"body":"You know, certainly the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2502.06,"endTime":2506.26,"body":"psychology of you know, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2506.26,"endTime":2510.16,"body":"remember working with residents,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2506.26,"endTime":2510.16,"body":"and they were working these"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2510.16,"endTime":2514.66,"body":"unbelievable hours and have them"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2510.16,"endTime":2514.66,"body":"help them It not only if they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2514.66,"endTime":2517.93,"body":"made a mistake, but if they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2514.66,"endTime":2517.93,"body":"forgot something that the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2517.93,"endTime":2525.67,"body":"faculty wanted to do. So we know"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2517.93,"endTime":2525.67,"body":"we have a much higher, I mean, a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2525.67,"endTime":2530.71,"body":"defective car, you know, but a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2525.67,"endTime":2530.71,"body":"defective system that kills"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2530.71,"endTime":2534.22,"body":"people. Right. I think that made"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2530.71,"endTime":2534.22,"body":"us take notice."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2535.21,"endTime":2537.49,"body":"Yeah, no, and I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2535.21,"endTime":2537.49,"body":"think you I think that's why,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2538.3,"endTime":2541.9,"body":"yeah, no, I mean, the stakes"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2538.3,"endTime":2541.9,"body":"are, you know, very high. Right?"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2541.9,"endTime":2545.74,"body":"Like, you know, can you know, so"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2541.9,"endTime":2545.74,"body":"it's critical. Yeah. critical"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2545.74,"endTime":2549.01,"body":"services. And, you know, and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2545.74,"endTime":2549.01,"body":"yeah, yeah, again, like, we"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2549.01,"endTime":2551.44,"body":"could both go on and on about,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2549.01,"endTime":2551.44,"body":"like, why understanding"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2551.44,"endTime":2555.1,"body":"variation at a, at a science"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2551.44,"endTime":2555.1,"body":"level or statistical process"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2555.1,"endTime":2559.69,"body":"levels is credibly important,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2555.1,"endTime":2559.69,"body":"especially for like, health"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2559.69,"endTime":2563.95,"body":"care, right, like and things you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2559.69,"endTime":2563.95,"body":"do, and all that. So yeah, no, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2563.95,"endTime":2567.04,"body":"think that that's pretty"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2563.95,"endTime":2567.04,"body":"interesting. You know, I, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2567.04,"endTime":2570.1,"body":"know, you told me about that two"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2567.04,"endTime":2570.1,"body":"errors human. And I went and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2570.1,"endTime":2572.26,"body":"took a quick glance at it. And I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2570.1,"endTime":2572.26,"body":"noticed there's one of these"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2572.26,"endTime":2575.17,"body":"days, I'm gonna connect you with"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2572.26,"endTime":2575.17,"body":"my good friend, Richard Cook,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2575.23,"endTime":2578.44,"body":"you know, and so he's, he's got"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2575.23,"endTime":2578.44,"body":"this references to him all. He's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2578.44,"endTime":2582.04,"body":"an anesthesiologist, and he's,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2578.44,"endTime":2582.04,"body":"he's been doing a lot of work in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2582.04,"endTime":2586.48,"body":"it. He's like, the coolest"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2582.04,"endTime":2586.48,"body":"person I know, because you talk"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2586.48,"endTime":2589.57,"body":"to on a Tuesday, he's like in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2586.48,"endTime":2589.57,"body":"the 70s. And he'll still be"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2589.57,"endTime":2593.32,"body":"going into the operating owners,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2589.57,"endTime":2593.32,"body":"anesthesiologists, and on"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2593.32,"endTime":2597.91,"body":"Thursday, he'll be like some"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2593.32,"endTime":2597.91,"body":"bank doing an IT outage"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2597.94,"endTime":2601.75,"body":"incident. Postmodern, like,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2597.94,"endTime":2601.75,"body":"there's nobody cooler on the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2601.75,"endTime":2605.02,"body":"planet that has can say that in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2601.75,"endTime":2605.02,"body":"one week. Right. So yeah, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2605.02,"endTime":2607.81,"body":"would love for you to sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2605.02,"endTime":2607.81,"body":"virtually meet Richard Cook and"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2607.81,"endTime":2610.81,"body":"see if I can do that. I guess"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2607.81,"endTime":2610.81,"body":"last but certainly not least,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2610.81,"endTime":2613.69,"body":"you know, you have this"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2610.81,"endTime":2613.69,"body":"fascinating damning story. So"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2613.69,"endTime":2616.39,"body":"just, you know, you want to"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2613.69,"endTime":2616.39,"body":"close up about us writing a"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2616.39,"endTime":2623.05,"body":"book. And you put all this in"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2616.39,"endTime":2623.05,"body":"place where we can hold it. Tell"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2623.05,"endTime":2625.12,"body":"us a little bit about the book"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2623.05,"endTime":2625.12,"body":"or it's coming along?"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2626.23,"endTime":2630.43,"body":"Yeah. Well, I think"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2626.23,"endTime":2630.43,"body":"for years, people kept saying"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2630.46,"endTime":2634.45,"body":"that I should write about my"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2630.46,"endTime":2634.45,"body":"experience. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2634.78,"endTime":2638.77,"body":"having rubbed elbows with the"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2634.78,"endTime":2638.77,"body":"likes of Brian joiner and"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2638.77,"endTime":2643.39,"body":"shirking back, and you know, Tom"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2638.77,"endTime":2643.39,"body":"Nolan, and I always felt like I"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2643.39,"endTime":2648.25,"body":"was such a peon who would care,"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2643.39,"endTime":2648.25,"body":"you know, what it was like"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2648.25,"endTime":2653.26,"body":"traveling with them. But I think"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2648.25,"endTime":2653.26,"body":"the more you know, the fewer of"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2653.26,"endTime":2658.51,"body":"us that are left that knew him"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2653.26,"endTime":2658.51,"body":"personally. Yeah. Then I think"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2658.51,"endTime":2662.71,"body":"that it is important that people"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2658.51,"endTime":2662.71,"body":"know my side of the story. I"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2662.71,"endTime":2666.88,"body":"don't think there are any. Now"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2662.71,"endTime":2666.88,"body":"Dr. batata, has written a lot of"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2666.88,"endTime":2671.65,"body":"books, but Paul did not travel"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2666.88,"endTime":2671.65,"body":"with him personally. So I think"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2671.65,"endTime":2677.11,"body":"that I do have the story. And so"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2671.65,"endTime":2677.11,"body":"about two years ago, I actually"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2677.11,"endTime":2681.19,"body":"started getting an outline"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2677.11,"endTime":2681.19,"body":"together, and I had pretty much"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2681.19,"endTime":2687.01,"body":"a finished book, and I had a"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2681.19,"endTime":2687.01,"body":"publisher in England, but I ran"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2687.01,"endTime":2690.31,"body":"into difficulties with some of"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2687.01,"endTime":2690.31,"body":"the stuff that I had quoted"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2690.31,"endTime":2696.31,"body":"liberally from Dr. Demmings"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2690.31,"endTime":2696.31,"body":"seminar and MIT Press. ohms. You"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2696.31,"endTime":2700.24,"body":"know, his books and so I had to"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2696.31,"endTime":2700.24,"body":"kind of back up and say no, I"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2700.24,"endTime":2705.31,"body":"can't use this material. So I've"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2700.24,"endTime":2705.31,"body":"had to rewrite two chapters. And"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2705.34,"endTime":2709.15,"body":"I actually think that I like"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2705.34,"endTime":2709.15,"body":"this version better. A lot of"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2709.15,"endTime":2713.53,"body":"what we talked about is, you"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2709.15,"endTime":2713.53,"body":"know, how I met him profound"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2713.53,"endTime":2718.75,"body":"knowledge. I kept a diary of all"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2713.53,"endTime":2718.75,"body":"of our consulting engagements."},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2718.75,"endTime":2723.79,"body":"So wow, even even our, let's"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2718.75,"endTime":2723.79,"body":"have our gin, you know, what did"},{"speaker":"Doris Quinn","startTime":2723.79,"endTime":2726.73,"body":"we talk about? We had some,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2727.089,"endTime":2730.449,"body":"I can't wait, I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2727.089,"endTime":2730.449,"body":"want to be a first customer. So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2733.72,"endTime":2737.26,"body":"it's coming along, I've"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2733.72,"endTime":2737.26,"body":"got the interest."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2737.62,"endTime":2739.12,"body":"You know, anytime"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2737.62,"endTime":2739.12,"body":"you want to put a couple"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2739.12,"endTime":2741.97,"body":"eyeballs on it, or just when"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2739.12,"endTime":2741.97,"body":"you're ready to promote it, I'll"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2741.97,"endTime":2744.61,"body":"just think there'd be a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2741.97,"endTime":2744.61,"body":"fascination of like I said"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2744.61,"endTime":2749.29,"body":"Deming is in a reasonably"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2744.61,"endTime":2749.29,"body":"interesting topic in my world."},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2749.29,"endTime":2752.98,"body":"And it and we have an area we've"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2749.29,"endTime":2752.98,"body":"specified is called DevOps, you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2752.98,"endTime":2756.76,"body":"know, and so there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2752.98,"endTime":2756.76,"body":"banter about Deming and Demings,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2756.76,"endTime":2760.27,"body":"14 points less about profound"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2756.76,"endTime":2760.27,"body":"knowledge. But, but you know,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2760.27,"endTime":2763.9,"body":"those those, like, excuse the"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2760.27,"endTime":2763.9,"body":"pun, the poignant points, really"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2763.9,"endTime":2767.65,"body":"expressed a lot of ways people"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2763.9,"endTime":2767.65,"body":"are thinking about modern tech,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2767.65,"endTime":2770.83,"body":"you know, information technology"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2767.65,"endTime":2770.83,"body":"delivery, you know, it's sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2770.83,"endTime":2775.21,"body":"the backstops and some of the,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2770.83,"endTime":2775.21,"body":"you know, and you know, so like"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2775.21,"endTime":2778.63,"body":"some of the big even sort of"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2775.21,"endTime":2778.63,"body":"tech giants influence from from"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2778.66,"endTime":2783.61,"body":"manufacturing into, to knowledge"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2778.66,"endTime":2783.61,"body":"work, really. So anyway, so I"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2783.61,"endTime":2787.84,"body":"think your book will be very"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2783.61,"endTime":2787.84,"body":"well welcomed in, in my space,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2787.87,"endTime":2790.15,"body":"so Well, good. I hope you had"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2787.87,"endTime":2790.15,"body":"fun, and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2790.24,"endTime":2793.27,"body":"I did. I always do"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2790.24,"endTime":2793.27,"body":"talking about the master. There"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2793.27,"endTime":2793.39,"body":"you"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2793.39,"endTime":2797.44,"body":"go. Yeah. No, it's"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2793.39,"endTime":2797.44,"body":"great. So. All right, well,"},{"speaker":"John Willis","startTime":2797.47,"endTime":2798.31,"body":"thanks again."}]}