Developing Humility

Qualities of character can be intentionally developed. And humility is no exception.  Listen in as we talk about a great first step toward intentionally developing humility as a person and in our leadership. 

Transcript

Jon Hatch 0:15

Welcome to the Lead Tech Not Loud podcast where we help leaders focus on what's most important, not just what's loudest. In this episode, we are going to talk about the topic of humility, which is a quality of character that is really important and leadership. And we're going to talk about humility, what it is, can it be developed? And if so, where do you start in developing humility? My co-host Adam is with me, and I am thankful that he's with me today. Yes, this is the week of Thanksgiving, so I'm going to say that. And Adam thinks it's corny, but I don't. So, Adam, thanks for being here. I'm thankful for you, man.

Adam Pavis 0:57

Thank you. I'm thankful that I get to be here as well.

Jon Hatch 1:02

Well, good.

Adam Pavis 1:03

It's great.

Jon Hatch 1:04

It's amazing. Hey, so I know we do this a lot, man, but you know, when we when I introduce the topic and we start diving in, I like to just start generally. Um, but let's just do that again with this topic as well, of of humility. Um, and what do you what kind of pops in your mind when you think of humility? Maybe, maybe it's a certain issue or maybe it's a certain person when you think of humility or something like that. But when it comes to humility, what what's there for you?

Adam Pavis 1:34

Hmm. It's weird because I know you're, or at least I'm in my mind, I know there's a chance that you would ask, that you might ask me this, and I actually like it. I can almost like I can picture something, but I don't know if I'm like, oh, it's this person or it's this like situation. Like I just think of someone, gosh, it's so weird. Like, I guess I would think of someone who's um like if there's credit being given maybe for something that was finished, that like, you know, there isn't really that person who's like raising their hand, like, actually this was me. Like, you know, they're they're they're in it with the at eye level with the rest of their team on that kind of thing. Even whether it's you know, sports or kind of a one-on-one sort of situation, like um, anything like that feels that feels like humility to me is where it's like you understand that all of this was a team, was like a group effort for the most part. There's gonna be those those handful of occasions where it's like, nope, that was on the back of that one person and they pulled that off. Like, yeah.

Jon Hatch 2:41

So that's good. That's really good. So um being humble enough to know that like the success wasn't just because of you, yeah, that you had other people that really made it happen, and so that's great. That's that's really good.

Adam Pavis 2:53

But I will I will add the success or the failure. I think that's such an interesting thing with humility where people are like when it comes to credit, like for someone getting like kudos or a team or a company getting a review, like, oh, this was a team effort, this was everybody. But like when it falls apart, it's like, well, that was Cindy. Like all of a sudden the humility is gone. There's no like, well, how can we rally around this as a team and like kind of share the load of this thing not going as planned?

Jon Hatch 3:21

That's that's a really good point. So a good kind of principle of leadership is to pass on the credit, but to take the blame. Oh, that's which that could be a whole other episode. Yeah. And that and when we talk about humility in the future, that that's a great episode. But a lot of times we get that backwards, yeah. Right? We take on the credit, but then we pass the blame. Yeah. And so leadership is about flipping that. So uh that's good. But hey, thanks for answering. I know I throw those questions on you sometimes at the beginning of our episodes, and you do a great job answering that. And that was a great response. Um, and so I want to start though, as we as we dive into humility, and we're gonna talk about one thing that we can develop or one thing that we could do that will help us develop humility in our leadership. But I want to start with kind of just backtracking that, you know, part of the whole LeTuff Not Loud concept is there's these two areas of focus, you know, that when we talk about, hey, we help leaders focus on the important things. One, we help leaders focus on the important things when it comes to their organizations and teams. Um there's four specific things within that that we feel like are most important, but also the other areas we help leaders focus on what's most important for their personal leadership development. And really, those personal leadership development things that we feel like are most important are qualities of character. And there's been, you know, there's kind of this typical thought that, well, can character really be developed? Like, can you really develop character? And and a lot of times people think that you can't. It really kind of just comes out of, you know, like situation and it's kind of you know, kind of situationally, you know, it just happens. Squishy, yeah, sure. But the reality is, and a lot of research shows that you can intentionally develop qualities of character. Oh humility is one of those things where a lot of people think, well, how does somebody develop humility? Like sometimes like we just kind of categorize people, right? There's there's people who are humble and there's people who are arrogant, right? Or prideful.

Adam Pavis 5:21

Yeah.

Jon Hatch 5:22

And and man, we look at somebody or and we look at you know, that person, we think, man, she is really a humble person. You know, we look at this other person, we're like, that guy's super arrogant, yeah, kind of a jerk, you know. And so we just kind of assume we kind of put people in these categories. And the reality is, you know, humility can be developed by anybody, no matter where you are in your leadership, and no matter who you are as a person, it can. Um, but you have to be intentional about it. It's not something that you just either have or don't have, it's something that you can develop in your leadership.

Adam Pavis 5:55

So I'm I'm hoping that this isn't the part where you're like, you put people through the ringer, and that's how you help them develop humility, is by just humbling them constantly. Because I've worked for people where that's just making things awful for them, and then watch how they react and they react wrong. You beat it into them where you're like, no.

Jon Hatch 6:14

Like you're horrible. Yeah, like we're doing this for a reason. We're trying to test you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and you're and you're failing miserably.

Adam Pavis 6:22

So I'm hoping that's not where this is going. No, not at all.

Jon Hatch 6:25

Okay, no, I don't recommend that to Dick. And I'm sorry for anybody who's had to gone through that or has has had to gone through that situation. Um, but really, there's a step towards developing humility and that I want to talk about today and being intentional about it, and that is trying to show more gratitude as a person and more gratitude in your leadership. Um, that is a great first step towards humility.

Adam Pavis 6:56

Okay, so if if your kind of answer to all this is gratitude, then it I do, I fully understand now it makes sense why you would plan this well for the week of Thanksgiving. So I I get that. I can see where gratitude and humility and all that ties in well, plays off of each other in this scenario.

Jon Hatch 7:15

Thank you for understanding that. You're welcome. I appreciate that. You're welcome. But it yeah, it really does. Gratitude leads towards humility, and it's a great first step to take. And and honestly, I let's just talk about Thanksgiving for a second, okay? Because there is a history to Thanksgiving, and and some people know it, and maybe a lot of people know it, and maybe a lot of people don't. I don't know. Um, and I don't know, I don't know if you're a history buff, Adam.

Adam Pavis 7:39

Like we're about to find out, guys.

Jon Hatch 7:41

Yeah. Um, but I I'm a little bit of a history buff. And so when you it was Abraham Lincoln who kind of established the holiday, the national holiday of Thanksgiving. What's interesting about it is he did it right in the middle of the Civil War. So imagine this, right? So you've got our country that's incredibly divided, right? And some people would say our country is completely divided today. So, but um, but think about it back then. Okay, so literally, our country is at war. You've got two sides fighting each other, and there's all all everything that's going that comes with war is going on, right? And it's right in the middle of it. And the middle of this, this massive thing that's happening. Um the leader of our nation decides hey, we're gonna pause, time out, we're gonna take a pause, and we're gonna show gratitude.

Adam Pavis 8:34

Now is the perfect time to talk about how thankful we are for each other and everything that we have. Like, yeah, that's like how think about how absurd that sounds. Yeah. So that'd be an odd leadership move to witness in person and be like, is this guy he's not okay? Like yeah, definitely.

Jon Hatch 8:54

And I don't know if I was in the middle of a war and maybe I just lost some family members, right? To this and like even lost my house, my land, whatever, whatever's happening, right? Or I'm in the middle of something that you know is going on that this war that could determine ultimately my future, and I don't know how it's gonna end up and how it's gonna go. I think the last thing that has to be on my mind during a moment like that is to be thankful.

Adam Pavis 9:20

Yeah, right. What are you thankful for right now, John?

Jon Hatch 9:22

Exactly. But you have a leader of our nation, the leader in the midst of this thing calling everyone to take a time out, take a pause, and be thankful and show gratitude. And I think that, like, as absurd as it is, that is an incredible leadership moment there. Um and I think it he didn't even know. Like Lincoln had no idea how things were gonna turn out at that point. I'm sure he had his hopes, he had his visions, he had all that stuff, but he had he didn't really know. And yet in the midst of that, he decides we need to show we need to be thankful. I need to be thankful, I need to show gratitude here, and I need to lead people to be thankful and show gratitude as well. Yeah, and I think that's that's a huge step of humility that he took in doing that and leading an entire country, an entire group of people towards doing that as well. And so just around the history of Thanksgiving itself, there's this there's this humility that comes with it, and the step of gratitude towards developing that humility or showing an act of humility in the midst of that. And so kind of a short story, but you know, just I just wanted to tie that in because gratitude does lead us towards humility. It's a great first step in that.

Adam Pavis 10:44

Yeah.

Jon Hatch 10:44

Um, and it's important. In fact, by the way, I know I say this all the time in our episodes, but a great uh book on leadership is is Lincoln on Leadership. That's the title of the book. Donald Phillips is the Phillips is the author. Kind of like he kind of gives light to Lincoln's life, Abraham Lincoln's life as president, and some of the leadership qualities and principles that played out in during his time and during his term. You know, it's up to you, but a great read for for listeners out there. Lincoln on Leadership. Great book.

Adam Pavis 11:11

So I uh I feel like you know, uh I would say in certain situations that gratitude, gratitude can be very difficult. Um it's it's one of those things where like I think all I think that's almost why, especially the again. This may be like maybe going as my generation would say, like, it's not that deep, but it may be going too deep here on this. But I think that's one reason why like younger people, especially nowadays, like they hate, or at least I did, and sometimes today I'll be honest with you guys. Like, I still do. I don't like the like, let's go around the table and talk about what we're thankful for, like on Thanksgiving. I don't know why that like bugs me so bad, but I think makes you uncomfortable. I think it does. Yeah, yeah, you know, I think that jacks out. You're gonna have to you're gonna have to grow in that area. Yeah, I think you're like, we'll work on that later. We'll later. But I think part of it is like there's always so much happening nowadays where it's like every every five minutes there's a new like apocalypse coming and there's something to like watch out for and the economy has crashed farther than it ever has in your entire life, kind of thing. But so I think what's what's tricky then is like I think that would be like word gratitude can sometimes be difficult. Um it can be hard to be like find those things we're that you're grateful for, but let like even narrow it down to like an organization that you're working for, a company that you're working for, a company you're leading, if you're you know, um higher up in an organization or a company, when you're in those moments, like what are some like practical, what would you, I guess, uh guidance could you give that are like practical things that people could start doing today to kind of help when you maybe your company is like in a layoff period or it's in a you know uh merger where everything's just like always up in the air and you don't know like how this is gonna work out moving forward and someone's like, hey, let's be super thankful. Like, what what are some active things people can do in those moments that you would say?

Jon Hatch 13:01

I think times like that it can come across superficial, right? Like, you know, let's let's be thankful, like you're saying. And I and I agree it can. I think, but if you can make it, I think first of all, what I would say is you need to make gratitude a habit of your leadership before you even get in those situations. Uh-huh. I think sometimes we do things too little too late. Yeah. Right. And when we do things too little too late and we're in a situation where it's difficult, then it comes across inauthentic, it comes across superficial. And we have to be really cautious of that, and which is why we're talking about these things now, right? So we're not talking to them or we're not talking about them pertaining to specific situations, we're talking about which they can be applied, but we're talking about them just in general. Hey, this is a great leadership principle to apply. Yeah. Because this is what it will do for you. And I think in order to develop humility, gratitude is a great practical thing you can do that can that can kind of lead you towards better humility, you know, in your life and in and as a leader. In doing that, but practicing it ahead of time, one thing I would say specifically to leaders in order to practice gratitude is to express your gratitude towards your people that are a part of your team. So verbally say it, right? Verbally express, hey, I'm thankful for you. And here's why. Like, get be specific. Don't don't do generalities. Nobody likes generalities, yeah, right? Um, the common, like, hey, I appreciate you, you know, kind of thing. And and it's like, okay, great.

Adam Pavis 14:39

I think I've told you what? Yeah, I think I've told you that before. Yeah. And this might this could absolutely be just be like the snarky millennial on me coming out. But I hate I'll let you know. Yeah, I know you will. Yeah. And I'm grateful for that. But anyways, uh I I don't know why, but I like I absolutely hate it when someone says, like, you know, um, either I'm thankful for you or I'm grateful for you, or I appreciate you. And and I'm saying, like, and they say that and that's it. Like, yeah, and it's maybe it's a tough time that you're going through, or maybe it's just Friday and it's the end of the week. And it's like someone who's, you know, the CEO or above you, or even just a client that you're working with, it's like, I appreciate you, or I'm grateful for you. It's kind of like this is again where it sounds like a snarky millennial, but it's like, yes, I know. Like, I'm here doing something specifically. You hired me to do something that is not a normal, average, everyday thing. So I'm aware of that. But it makes it honestly difficult to move forward into thinking, like, I wonder what I'm doing here that's actually valuable, that's that they like when I do this, that maybe they don't like when I do this. And when everything's just so general, it's hard to like target certain things and move forward or be like, oh, I know my company or my client or my organization appreciates it when I do A, B, and C. So I will keep doing those things.

Jon Hatch 16:01

You do you you just want to know why. You want to know why they appreciate you. You want to know why they're thankful for you.

Adam Pavis 16:05

And you can't ask that. Like that's so inappropriate. Someone's like, hey, I appreciate you to just write back and be like, thanks. Why? But you want to, yeah.

Jon Hatch 16:12

You you want to ask because and okay, yeah, it is a little snarky, but yeah, but I think you're but everybody's feeling what you're saying. Everybody who's ever that's ever happened to you, right? Like who's just gotten a general thank you or a general appreciate, I appreciate you, wants to know why. Yeah. Because we all want to know, like, well, what is it specifically that you are thankful for me for and you do appreciate about me? Because I want to, I want to know is because I want to keep doing it. Yeah, if I'm doing a good job of something or I'm I'm yeah, I I just want to keep doing it.

Adam Pavis 16:46

And I want to know why, and I want to know that you didn't just copy and paste this message to like 30 other people as well. It's like getting a birthday card from your dentist where you're like, hey, thank you. I appreciate that my birthday is in your system somewhere and that this went out, but you know that no one like sat down and wrote you a birthday card, like from your dentist, you know.

Jon Hatch 17:11

But that's why handwritten notes are go over that much better. Yeah, absolutely.

Adam Pavis 17:16

Yeah, and so it's like if you if there's that little bit of a like, oh wow, they wrote me a thank you message or an appreciation message, something just grateful for what I'm doing or how we're doing this together, and it was very specific, it does, it feels so much better. So I would a hundred percent agree. Like, if you can get specific with your gratitude and your thankfulness for your teams, I would expect you to be able to really see a big change to feel a lot more um eye-level interaction with your teams and your people there and feel like you're you're on a much more even playing field than just like I'm up here, you're down here, and every once in a while I will shout that I'm thankful for you from up here.

Jon Hatch 17:54

Yeah. And what that does for us as in our leadership, what it does for us as a leader is when you express that specifically, typically it's something that you yourself as a leader really can't do. So, like you're expressing something that you're grateful for for somebody on your team, knowing that you necessarily can't do that, or you don't necessarily have the time to do it. But they're they do and they're doing it well, and you're showing that.

Adam Pavis 18:23

So that's where the humility is.

Jon Hatch 18:24

That's where the humility kicks in because they're doing something that you either can't do, don't have time to do. And so you're you're expressing, you know, this humility and saying, I recognize that. I recognize that you're doing something I'm incapable of doing. And that's humility. That's humility being kind of played out in a practical sense. So that's that's why the specifics of that, of that gratitude is really important, I think. Um, and so that's that's one thing that you can do as leaders to verbally express gratitude for your team. The other thing I would say is, and I know maybe this sounds like something that isn't, you know, it's like, okay, yeah, here it is. But I would make a list of what you what you are thankful for in as a leader too. And and be as specific as you can in that list, right? Like I'm thankful for the company I work for, you know. Okay, well, what is it about the company that you work for that makes you thankful for them, right? I'm thankful for my family. Okay, great. You have a family, but what specifically are you thankful for? The more specific you can be, the more you realize that all of these things are providing something for you that you can't provide for yourself. And that's a step towards humility being being practically applied to your life.

Adam Pavis 19:45

And I do just want to point out that thematically, yes, it's it's Thanksgiving, and we're talking about this, you know, kind of under that same um same banner of gratefulness and Thanksgiving. But this is not a Thanksgiving leadership tactic. Like this is not you're not telling people to do this during the week of Thanksgiving as like a team building exercise. You're saying to do this how often? Like, is this like and I know people would say all the time, but I mean like realistically, is this where you would maybe recommend to someone go through and do this once a month, do this once every other week? Like I would say make it a weekly practice.

Jon Hatch 20:19

Okay. I would say, and however you need to do that, you know, um, set a reminder on your phone, on your calendar, whatever you need to do, leave a sticky note on your desk or you know, on your computer screen, something like that, that that reminds you to show gratitude towards the people you're leading, to show gratitude towards what you have. And if you can make that a regular thing weekly, even when difficult situations arise, then you already realize, man, I'm you're I'm so grateful that I have this team to go through the situation with, or I have these things in place to go through this difficult time, you know, with in the midst of that. And I think kind of going back again to Thanksgiving, going back again to Lincoln doing that as president, to calling a nation to give thanks, even during this an amazing difficult time for our country. Um, I think that was a step towards that, right? Yeah. And I think that's that's what we can do. But I think I would say make it a weekly regular thing, you leadership, to practice gratitude, because that ultimately leads us towards more humility in our life, and something we can intentionally do to develop that. Hey, thanks for listening. We know your time is valuable, so we hope this episode was valuable to you. For more information about LeadTuff Not Loud, visit leetuff.com.