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Beyond the Game Ft Chris Broussard
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When Chris Broussard sits down with Dr. Steve Perry, the conversation quickly moves beyond sports statistics to the deeper currents of faith, identity, and purpose. Broussard's journey from Cleveland to Oberlin College reveals the powerful influence of representation – his decision to attend hinged on the discovery that the basketball coach was Black, leading him to a school with a remarkable history as the first American institution to accept African Americans.
The heart of their exchange centers on Broussard's spiritual awakening during his senior year of college. Despite having everything a young man could want – basketball captaincy, a girlfriend, and a promising sports writing job waiting after graduation – Broussard describes an emptiness that led to his faith commitment on his 21st birthday. This transformation didn't diminish his Black consciousness but rather deepened it, connecting him to the rich history of African Christianity that predates America by centuries.
Perry and Broussard tackle the complex ecosystem surrounding professional Black athletes with unflinching honesty. They identify a troubling pattern where young men with extraordinary talent become isolated from authentic mentorship, surrounded instead by childhood friends who may lack guidance themselves or business associates primarily interested in profit. The conversation explores how stars like LeBron James, Steph Curry, and Jalen Brown navigate these waters, with some creating models for leveraging their platforms to uplift communities.
Most compelling is their vision for what could be possible if athletes could unite beyond performative meetings toward sustained action. As Broussard notes, "We need to be building constantly, even in peacetime," pointing to the untapped potential of Black athletic influence in American society. Their conversation stands as both critique and hopeful blueprint for how success in sports might translate to meaningful change for communities that have produced so many of our cultural icons.
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so excited to meet you Like for real I am.
Speaker 2:Hey man, the feeling is mutual. I am a big fan of yours and everything you're doing. I first saw you years ago on CNN and I think you were talking about Morehouse at the time and, yeah, you probably remember what it was about. But you've done great work, man, with the capital prep schools, man, and I just think that we should be trying to duplicate what you're doing throughout the country to help our kids.
Speaker 1:So it is uh exciting for me to be on here, because I I do follow much more than just sports no, and and and anyone who, any of the million people who follow you, they're going to be disappointed because I'm not interested in your take on sports, because I think you're so. I think you are so important to our community, so meaningful in your presentation of your manhood, of your fatherhood, of your husbandry, like across the board. But let's get started here. You're clearly a big sports fan.
Speaker 2:Oberlin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's interesting. So I finished high school in Cleveland, which is about 45 minutes east of Oberlin College, and so I was a good athlete in high school.
Speaker 1:No, not good, you a hall of fame, come on.
Speaker 2:Hall of fame in my high school holy name high school. But I was recruited for football and basketball at the division three level and so most of the schools that recruited me were lily white you know very small black populations and. And Oberlin actually recruited me for football and I had an afternoon visit there and it wasn't much. I wasn't impressed so I wasn't even thinking about Oberlin. Then they called me about basketball months later and my father said he was home. He answered the phone and he told me when I got home, hey, oberlin called about basketball. I was like I already visited Oberlin. He answered the phone. He told me when I got home, hey, oberlin called about basketball. I was like I already visited Oberlin. I'm not interested. He said it sounded like it was a brother the coach.
Speaker 1:I was like oh, he was like you might want to.
Speaker 2:I was like, okay, maybe he said why don't you go take a visit? It's a great school? I really wasn't.
Speaker 1:That's a fantastic school, yeah, yeah, but big time sports it's not.
Speaker 2:No, no, no. But he was like it's a great school, so why don't you just go visit it again? So I went up there, stayed for a weekend and I stayed with a basketball player and the team, believe it or not was just very unusual. At the Division III level Our team was like 80% black and so that was unique. I wanted a school with a nice black population and overland had at most division three schools one at least that I visit didn't have much of a black population and two they only had students from like the that state and maybe a couple surrounding states, whereas oberlin, because of its history, had a great black population. At that point it was maybe 10 percent that's huge.
Speaker 2:You're right. They had a black uh dorm called the african heritage house. You didn't have to live there, but you could, um, and so it was. You know, I had a great time that weekend and I went back and was like I'm going to Oberlin, you know, and the thing about Oberlin it was the first. You may know this it was the first school in America to accept African-Americans. Yes, it wasn't the first one that had a black graduate, but it was the first school where it accepted students regardless of race. And so at the turn of the 20th century, so the early 1900s, two out of every three black college graduates had gone to Oberlin.
Speaker 1:I knew that it had a rich history, like Bates, for being one of those places where black people could go that were the whitest places on earth, yep.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, so it was. It was so. It has students from all over the country, even all over the world. I met my wife there. She's from New York city. There were more people from New York and then there were from Ohio, so it was. It was a really unique experience. I got to play basketball there and so, yeah, that's how I ended up at Oberlin, and I went there with Adrian Fenty, who was the former mayor of DC. He was a year behind me and then her name I can't believe her name just came to me the mayor of Baltimore around the same time Stephanie.
Speaker 1:Yes, I know Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yes, she was like a freshman, when I was a senior. So a lot of productive people there.
Speaker 1:You occupy a space that, for me, has always been interesting. Your sports knowledge is immaculate. There's know you wouldn't be an fs1 in in the in the seat that you're in, if you didn't have that, you could stop there and you would be the guy and couldn't go out to a bar without somebody coming over and asking you for a hot take. And you know you'd be the king of every cookout, right, but you didn't stop there. You seem to have this interest in doing something bigger than sports. Where does that come from?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when I was at Overland my senior year, I became a Christian. You know I grew up in the Catholic church like a lot of people grew up in church but really became committed about my faith. My senior year at Oberlin what brought that about?
Speaker 1:if you don't mind me asking, because I want to get into that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what brought?
Speaker 1:that about.
Speaker 2:It's interesting I started my sophomore year.
Speaker 2:I started dating a young lady who was a Christian and she was really the first person to that I was close with, who exposed me to biblical Christianity, so like really trying to follow the Bible and live it out.
Speaker 2:And so, um, you know, I, just in the process of dating her, I started going to Bible studies with her, praying with her, her. I started going to Bible studies with her, praying with her, and it was like a year before I really like our relationship was great, but it was like a tug of war because she was trying to live for Christ and I wasn't, and so it was. I wasn't like a terrible person or anything like that, but I wasn't really trying to live for Christ. You know, I was out trying to do my own thing and stuff like that, and so, uh, we went to a church about a year after we had been dating and I really just being in the atmosphere, the message from the minister really convicted me and let me knew know that God wasn't pleased with my life, the way I was living it. Again, his standards are higher than ours. I wasn't a drug dealer, I wasn't a gang badger.
Speaker 1:But that's an important point, though A lot of times, because where a lot of parents go wrong is they start with the at least. At least he's not a drug dealer At least he's not an F Right.
Speaker 1:At least he pays for his kids, like at least. It's not a f right. At least, at least he, at least he, he pays for his kids, like at least. And what I hear you saying is at least is not what your conversation was about. Okay, you were doing the things that decent human beings should do, but that wasn't enough for you and your calling right and that's like, like I said, know, god's standard is much higher than ours.
Speaker 2:God, to your point, is not comparing us to the criminal and saying oh, like you said, or at least he's not that His standard. Here's how high his standard is. You know, I'm sure you're aware of the scripture where Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust in your heart, you've committed adultery. Now, by thought alone.
Speaker 2:Right. So he what he's saying? Because everybody has probably done that. You know, women looking at men, men looking at women, right, but what he's saying is so everyone needs salvation from sin. You might be a person that, compared to other people, is very upstanding, you walk a very moral life, but you still haven't reached my standards, and so that's why he had to die on the cross for our sins. So I realized that and I fought against it because I didn't want. I didn't want to become a, a christian, a bible believing christian. I really didn't want to become a Christian, a Bible-believing Christian. I really didn't want to try to live my life for Christ.
Speaker 1:It's a rough time to convert. Being a young adult, that's a rough time. A point guard on the basketball team a good-looking point guard on the basketball team typically is not the guy you're following to church Typically not.
Speaker 2:I'm a Kappa, kappa, alpha Psi. I mean, I was doing my thing and I didn't see. I saw men that went to church, but I didn't see brothers that were actually really living for the lord. So I was like man, no, I ain't. I'm not trying to be the only one, that's for dang sure yeah and like, but god, really, just man.
Speaker 2:After about four or five months of running and I'll share it quickly so he blessed me with a summer internship. I was going into my senior year of college and I had a summer internship at the Cleveland Plain Dealer, which was the best newspaper or biggest newspaper in the state of Ohio. It was in sports writing. So I did well that summer. They told me look, when you graduate we're going to hire you. So you know how I mean. Much of a blessing. That is how great you feel Like man. I'm going into my senior year and I have a job waiting for me that pays well, that's a good job, that's a fun job in sports. So I was on top of the world.
Speaker 2:But then, gradually, I began to feel like, like man, is this all there is to life? Like there has to be more to life than this. And I knew it was christ. But, like I said, I was running, did I tried to look for all types of things, loopholes, and as I realized like there has to be more to life than this, I started feeling an emptiness. You you know, because it was like man, things are going great, got a girlfriend I love, a promise of a great job. I was co-captain of the basketball team, like everything was going well, but I started feeling this emptiness and I remember my 21st birthday.
Speaker 2:My father and mother were taking me and my girlfriend out to dinner and before we went out I talked with him. We were just running some errands and I was like I said what, what keeps you going in life? I wasn't suicidal or anything like that, but I was just like once you had, you guys, two sons we're both in college, both doing well, we have a nice house what, what keeps you going once you get all that stuff? He was like well, you want a promotion on the job, or you want a bigger house, or you want to make more money. You want to make money to help other family members or help the less fortunate.
Speaker 2:Everything he said was good and fine, but I knew it wasn't going to fulfill the void in my heart. So, man, honestly, god broke me down to where it was either keep running and be empty and miserable inside, or give my life to Christ and get some peace and joy. So, on, my 21st birthday is actually when I gave my life to Christ. Wow, and that, steve, I was very much into. I think you might be a little younger than me, but I was very much.
Speaker 1:We graduated. You graduated in what? 90?, 90?
Speaker 2:I graduated in 92, yeah, Okay, so we're the same group. So I was very much as I'm sure you were into hip-hop and all that and at that time, like really, I grew up in a very pro-black family. Like my father was very pro-black.
Speaker 2:Light-skinned men have to, otherwise they'll they'll call us out yeah, right, exactly, and my whole family, both of my parents, are black, but they like like me, um, and so he was pro-black in a sense of just very. He created a very just feeling of being proud to be black and being black is great. He wasn't so much pro black in a in a like knowledge of black history. You know what I mean. I mean, he knew somebody.
Speaker 1:I got what you're saying. He was committed to his community, but he wasn't a scholar in the in the work, yeah.
Speaker 2:I got what you're saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like we always pull for the brothers on TV the black right right, right when they went right before the news breaks and they say there's two people shot, you like please don't let them be black, please don't let me like, please, yeah, like that kind of black, like I got it, I got it exactly.
Speaker 2:So when I went, went to college and get you know at that time hip-hop was very conscious black medallion no gold and rakim yeah, you know it was a very x -clan all those and so I started really through that, getting into Black history, and then I started researching it on my own and just being in college and being exposed to Black professors taking Black history classes, you know you start talking about Blackness on a different level. Like growing up I was very proud to be black and but it was a based on you know, we man, we our music, you know, are we great in sports? You know all that stuff.
Speaker 1:In opposition to whiteness. As opposed to force, authentic purpose, its own intrinsic value.
Speaker 2:Right, and in college you start start having like, you start really I really start being exposed to talking about blackness on a whole different level. You start looking at the economics and the education and the family Facing at the bottom of the well, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then you see, okay, we got a lot of work to do. You know what I mean. Things aren't just all having fun and all that stuff, and because we're great in sports doesn't mean everything is hunky-dory, so to speak. And so I really began wanting to help up, uplift the black community, help improve the quality of life in our communities. And when I became a Christian, that just took that commitment to a whole nother level. And I began, man, I began reading tons of books, a lot of books about biblical history, but also about Christian history and African Christian history. Christianity in Africa centuries before America existed. You know, or or or thousand a thousand years before America existed, and you know all of this. You know black presence in the Bible, and so my Christian walk is very tied in with my desire to help improve the quality of life in the black community to help improve the quality of life in the black community.
Speaker 1:The whole book is a black story. Well, the entire, all of it is written in Africa. Yes, I mean, still trips me out that the Vatican is in Europe.
Speaker 2:That to me is like Right, because Christianity was in Africa before it was in.
Speaker 1:Europe that's the point Still trips me out that that's the case. You know, last night was the draft and they go through a lot of the feel-good stories, but who are some of the players who you see as stand-up brothers? You know we see so much of the negative, but who are some of the men who you say? That guy right there? Y'all need to understand who this is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean most people know about Steph Curry and his, you know, commitment to his family. He's a Christian. He really, you know, you know at Howard he funded the golf program at howard, like he's a very conscientious brother that wants to. You know, just, he's a good person, you know, and he just wants to help use his fame and his fortune to really help others.
Speaker 2:Uh, and then lebron man, because I I haven't seen lebron in a while, but early his career I did a lot of stories on him. I did about six cover stories on him for ESPN, the magazine, and got to know him fairly well and I'll say this he, like a lot of people, probably, if you don't know his backstory which most people, you feel most people do you would think he was like a suburban kid. You know how clean cut like he comes off right, very clean cut everything. He hasn't had any scandals or anything but man. His upbringing is probably was rougher than probably 90% of the league and I don't mean in terms of him fighting or no, but his conditions, that he grew up in.
Speaker 1:A lot of people and I jump in here because one of the things that people do we're very coastal in this country. Either you grew up in New York City, and that's supposed to be the roughest place on Earth, or you grew up in Los Angeles and that's supposed to be the roughest place on Earth, or you grew up in Los Angeles and that's supposed to be the roughest place on Earth, not acknowledging that an Akron could be a pretty rough situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I feel like and I'm sure you've seen it, man black communities, particularly poor black communities, I feel like African-Americans in most cities are facing the same thing, clinton everywhere detroit everywhere, la yeah, it's the same challenge, it's like a franchise it literally is like a franchise.
Speaker 1:In every hood. In every hood, you have the same phenotype, you, you have exactly you, you. You have the same dilapidated physical structures. You have the same broken people surrounded by places to buy hair, buy Chinese food, buy weed, buy alcohol. And there are no poor schools and there are no. No one's ever seen a commercial for a Chinese food spot or a liquor store, but both of them thrive in our communities. They thrive like parasites in our communities. No one sees a commercial for a place to buy synthetic hair, but everybody has it, and so it is what I often find.
Speaker 1:I'm in Austin today and what I often find is that people in their black community often think that their black issues are the only people, they're the only ones who are having those issues. And a lot of times I find myself saying, no, those folks over there, like right on the other side, is blocked, they're the only ones who are having those issues. And a lot of times I find myself saying, no, those folks over there, like right on the other side of this block, their stuff is as jacked up as anybody. And so when I hear of a LeBron coming from, Akron.
Speaker 2:I've been to Akron.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not a vacation, right, not a vacation. You know what's going on.
Speaker 2:And I mean his mom was 16 when she had him. She wasn't married um her boyfriend. At the time he was a drug dealer. You know, lebron doesn't never had a relationship with his dad. What helped him was that obviously he was great in sports and he ended up like playing with guys and becoming really good friends with guys who had stable families like two-parent households.
Speaker 2:Okay, in fact, he missed I think it was fourth grade. He missed like 160 some odd days of school. And so his one of his good friends on like the football team or something at they lebr, and they agreed with his mom, they worked it out, she was working her situation out. Lebron lived with his friend and his family, father and mother and they had like two or three kids. He lived with them from the fifth grade through the eighth grade and that stabilized him. He was a good student, obviously still a great athlete, and so he was blessed man, obviously still a great athlete, and so he was blessed man. He had great people around. I know a lot of the people that were around him that really showed him a different way, looked out for him and um, so I just think what? Obviously what he has done, um with his platform is tremendous, um, so those and those are the two faces of the league and they're both great guys. Jalen Brown in Boston is really good. Yeah, talk about.
Speaker 1:Jalen, because you know I love it that. You know I love it that Steph is seen for being a solid human being and LeBron is seen for being a solid human being, both of those who are some of the less Jalen Brown is obviously well-known but who are some of the other brothers in the league who are, in fact, just off the court, solid dudes, solid dudes.
Speaker 2:And jalen is one I would say, like you said, he's fairly well known, but he, he, he really wants, in fact, he'd be great, because I, I think, honestly, man, I feel like a lot of our, our black athletes, need to link up with black educators such as yourself, blackie, and they don't even have to be black, but economists, accountants, lawyers, and really dive into how our athletes can use their platform, their connections, in some cases their wealth, to really help the masses of black people. And Jalen is a brother that reminds me that, because he, you know, he wanted to start, wants to start, like a black wall street, um, and he's very interested in uplifting black people. So, and then you have, you know, I'm trying to think, cause I can think of a lot of well, kyrie is, in fact, kyrie grew up right around where I live. I live in South George, new Jersey. He grew up in West George. I know his dad Well, kyrie is a very thoughtful brother and a good brother.
Speaker 2:No doubt Now, in you'll relate to this, I'm sure, kyrie, brother and a good brother, no doubt Now, and you'll relate to this, I'm sure, kyrie, like you've seen a lot of black men. It happened with my brother, they, you know. You grow up in your typical American educational system. You get to college, perhaps, or even right after college, and you're exposed to black history. Malcolm X you read the autobiography. That changed my life, changed my life Changed my life.
Speaker 1:I came home from the University of Rhode Island jacked up Like if you looked at me wrong. I was ready to go, I was like it's on and popping.
Speaker 2:Now let's go. That happens to brothers, because you're finally you're exposed to what's really going on and what's been going on and why you see, in some because it's a trip and I know you've seen it Cities that we think of as man. You don't want to go there Cleveland, detroit. You know cities like you know. The hood is rough, man. There are so many places in those cities where it's just shangri-la. You know what I mean. There are all. There's the hood, and then there are these areas that aren't that far from the hood but the houses are huge and things are.
Speaker 1:You know it's because it used to be a big community. Pittsburgh is one of those places. Yeah, pittsburgh is one of those places you just like where did what is going like? Where these gigantic houses coming from?
Speaker 2:right. And so you, when you look around and you so, when you read the autobiography of malcolm x and start reading the history, then you, it clicks. Oh, this is why I see the dichotomy. I see white people in many cases, most cases, living like this, and black people in many cases in our neighborhoods, dilapidated, our schools worse off than these schools. And so it clicks and a lot of brothers get angry. My brother went to Howard. He joined the nation of Islam. He was a year behind me. He joined the nation of Islam in the in 1990. And you know, that's when it was getting big with Louis Farrakhan.
Speaker 1:It could have been me. It could have been me I'm, I was yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I know a lot of brothers that people would I won't say their names because some of them are on TV working in sports who, just like you, almost join, you know, because you see them uplifting black men and it's just a different look and a different mindset for our people. But anyway, my brother and some of my other good friends went through this, this kind of you know. They grew and developed they. At times they had incredibly radical thoughts, you know and you know, but they went through it anonymously, right, kyrie went through it in the public eye.
Speaker 2:He went through that time of radical. You know, I'm starting to see all this black history. I'm starting to see what's wrong and what's happening, been happening to our people, still happening to our people, and so it's hard to process it right away. But most brothers do it anonymously. He did it in the fishbowl of the nba, so that's why he made some statements, some comments in the past that you know may have rubbed people, including black people, the wrong way. But now you see he's matured and you know he sees things a little bit differently but still very committed to helping people, particularly black and Native American people, and so he's a great brother. But that's and I like, because, I'm going to be honest, all the brothers in the league aren't that thoughtful.
Speaker 1:No, no, they're not. And you know, one of the many reasons why I wanted to build with you is because you've committed your platform to uplifting our community and you've done so aggressively. You are not passive about this. You stand on business as it relates to what needs to happen, and I would imagine that you've seen the cocoons that are formed around these athletes coming from the puppy mills that they come from, because the AAU programs that that churn them out, uh, that literally use them men, men who used to be hustlers and, quite frankly, still are running full-on programs funded by god knows what right and and they, and there's this bubble that these black boys are in, where they are whisked away from anyone who could point out to them that they're being played, anyone who could sit them down.
Speaker 1:One of the many reasons I've always had respect for Muhammad Ali is he allowed himself to listen. Yes, somebody sat him down and said yo dog, hold tight, yep, hold tight, hold tight, hold tight. Let me holler at you for a second. And he allowed himself to learn about the deep and inherent struggles of black people other than himself, because part of the extrication process begins real early. It can be. Oftentimes it could be that white family who takes you in as the six foot uh five eighth grader, right like right right. The movie blindside is not so far off. I know that story over and, over and over again yeah, well, it's like, I think one.
Speaker 2:I think we, as african americans, are educated in the same, with the same. We're exposed and educated into the same thought process or mentality of most americans, which is me, me, me, me, me, me, let me get mine right. I think it's an individualistic culture and for white people that works because of the way society is built for their success and they haven't had the history that we've had here. And that is your mentality me, me, me. And you grab, you and I was they graduate from college. But you get out of college, go into the NBA, nfl, whatever, and now you have all this money. Guess what you're thinking me, me, me, me, me. I gotta get mine, I got to floss, I got to get the platinum chain and all this and that rather than okay, how can I help my people? And I think that, to your point, for that to shift, you have to be exposed to other African-Americans who know the truth and don't want anything from you.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the key too truth and don't want anything from you, right? Well, that's the key too, and it could be, but don't, but not.
Speaker 2:But not trying to get put on by you, not your employee right, which is challenging when they're making so much money, and even sometimes well-meaning people see the dollar signs and how we can help them, but that's just the visibility, just the visibility alone is a currency for many people, just being able to say that you're, you're proximate to such and such.
Speaker 1:But you said something about how, how black people are educated. Most black people don't they. They realize what. They don't realize that 95, if not 97 percent of all the people who taught you how to do anything were white. Yes, yep, all day. Yep, during the most formative years up to and through college and graduate school. Yeah, and so they taught you what a good student is. They taught you what smart is. They taught you what a bad behaved person was. They taught you. They taught you. They taught you what a bad behaved person was. They taught you. They taught you, and mostly they taught you, if you're a black male, that you are not a good student, you are not a good steward and you are a bad person. It's the numbers, just don't lie that the suspension rates among African-Americans males are through the roof and so wildly disproportionate. Many of the young men who are great athletes were not great students, right, not at all, and were not expected to be. I mean, it didn't happen.
Speaker 2:And see, that's the thing, like can you imagine if these dudes were educated? And I know you don't mean this either. We're not saying they aren't intelligent, no, no, no, I'm saying they aren't educated. There is a big difference. Some of these dudes are incredibly intelligent, but don't have good education. Aren't educated right.
Speaker 1:Look at where they had the opportunity to go to school. Look at these sorry behind schools that nobody, not even the people who work in them, would ever send their children to Ever.
Speaker 2:Like under any circumstances and see that that's why I like what you're doing and this and you I know you know that I haven't seen you talk about this, but I I'm sure you've mentioned it before a lot of the people that are against I'm talking about black people, a lot of our black leaders that are against, like charter schools and you know all this send their kids to private schools.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you all of them. Let me be clear. Let me be even clearer than that. They're disgusting. They're disgusting because they're the ones who call me. Hey Doc, can I holler at you for a second? Sure, senator, how can I help you, my niece? What's going on with your niece? She's on your waiting list. Word Wow, anything you do, senator. You know if I did anything, that would be against the law, but you could do something. What's her number? She's 24. Okay, she's number 24 on our waiting list, senator, so I can help you. Guarantee your daughter gets in. Give me 25 more seats. There you go. She's in. There you go. Ah, doc, you know I can't do that. I know you won't, but I don't know you can. Right?
Speaker 2:They're voting and promoting laws against your school schools like yours, Every single day.
Speaker 1:Listen, we're opening a school in Connecticut, in my hometown of Middletown, connecticut, where Wesleyan is an Oberlin-type school and top applicant yada, yada, yada, and a black state commissioner is standing in the way with white Democrats. They're standing in the way but we won't get to that. But where I want to go back to, because I think you have you said something a moment ago when they came to the door. Sorry, but they would have kept knocking if I didn't. So you mentioned about many of these brothers getting together. We all know of the time when Jim Brown pulled people together to have a conversation. One of my former students is Andre Drummond.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:The CNN piece that you saw.
Speaker 1:Saw, the kid that I was picking up in the morning was andre wow, wow, man, that's, that's great, but I'm gonna state it, just as we talk about people who are better than than than they are athletes, better people than they are athletes.
Speaker 1:I mean, he's a phenomenal athlete, but even better person, and it's because, in part, his mom makes sure that other people the hangers-on what one time he referred to as sharks are not too close to him, and one of the challenges, I think, for a lot of these young men is trusting other men that look, son, I don't want anything from you, Like you've never bought me a dinner and you're liable not to ever get the chance to buy me dinner. I'm older than you are. I have enough money to pay for both of us. I'm not going to take us anywhere that I can't afford two meals. So what can we do to start to talk to some of these brothers and get them to understand their pure power? Because you do get to. They hear you. I've seen your opinion matters in some real ways, so they care what you say.
Speaker 2:Man, that's the million-dollar question. First, I think you hit it on the head because I've talked to black coaches who say that they feel like black players have trouble with black male authority because they don't grow up seeing it. You know male authority because they don't grow up seeing it, you know, um, and so I it's. It's a tough like. Look, you do have things like the players association. If you can get an audience with them, then maybe you, you can look I. I actually think, man, there needs to be something like. It's just a name.
Speaker 2:It could be any name, but the association of african-american athletes yeah because, as you know, there are, there are black advocacy groups in every field of endeavor. There's the national association of black journalists, there's engineers, I'm sure there's education social worker, everything lawyers, doctors, yep, yep, but not the, the, the two wealthiest, the, the two careers that the wealthiest blacks are in sports and entertainment. Because if you look at the top 10 african-americans, the wealthiest african-americans, in the top 10, probably seven of them will have done it through sports or entertainment.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Daisy, you know, lebron Oprah, bob Johnson and there might be a couple real estate guys, you know, but most of them were from sports and entertainment Michael Jordan and they don't have a black advocacy group well, even though you have you have, like the, the players association, they still have to look out for the white players, the asian players, the european, you know, and but do you think that they're too surrounded by white people?
Speaker 1:like, let's just keep it a buck? Like? If you look at many of the, in many of the cases, by the time a man makes it to the nba, he he has two groups around him. Right, he has these cats he grew up with from the hood. In most cases, yeah, there's that, that's that. And or white people who are making money off of him. So he's got white people making money off of him and black people are making money off of him.
Speaker 1:But I don't typically see among the athletes, men around them who are whether a pastor, imam, a sage, somebody who just throws his arm way over his shoulder and say come here, let me holler at you for a second, let me talk me, talk to you, because there's a brainwashing that I don't even think many of them recognize is occurring. While they're there, they're put up as the pretty baby Right and treated like this. That's what is going to be here forever, and this respect is going to be here forever, and the women are going to be here forever, when we all know forever is only two and a half years. So forever is only two and a half years if you're lucky.
Speaker 2:Right, right, if you're lucky. Yeah, I mean. Look, there are some very successful and good African-American agents and some of the top ones in the NBA, rich Paul, who obviously came through.
Speaker 1:Of course, yeah, bill.
Speaker 2:Duffy. Bill Duffy is another one Aaron Goodwin. Aaron Goodwin at one time had LeBron, kevin Durant and Dwight Howard all at once, but he's you know. So there are several others. I could mention Austin Brown, but obviously there are a ton of white agents and most of these guys are in a position. Now look you or me, if we came out of good colleges and all of a sudden we had tens of millions of dollars, we would be like man, you know, you don't really know how to handle that.
Speaker 1:Oh, I do too. I know how to handle it.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:I know, I know, I listen, I'm a Christian under construction. Let's keep it a buck. I bought the land. I bought the land. I have laid a foundation. We've not put the first. We don't. I got plans for like I can see it'd be beautiful, but right now we are the ground floor. So if you had given me, at 19 years old, a hundred million dollars, man, please, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I promise you that right now.
Speaker 2:No, and that's that's what I'm saying like. So again, I would have had my parents there who knew a little bit about money, to steer me in the right direction. But if you don't have that and most of the brothers don't you know they're coming from poor families and things like that, or even if they're not poor family, it's just they don't have that very, Very few people have people.
Speaker 1:Very few people will ever meet a person who could handle a hundred thousand dollars, let alone 50 million, right?
Speaker 2:No, it's, it's. And so what happens? Is you, absolutely you are in a position where you have to trust somebody and in most cases you trust in somebody you don't know. Right, the agent comes to the school. He says you know, does something to get to know you whether it's sending people your way, that you're going to relate to rappers you know young black people, young white, you know women, whatever and he gets your trust. You still don't know him that well, but you got to. You have to trust him because you don't know how to handle money and your family doesn't really know how to handle it. And what happens is now agents are limited in the NBA to getting 4% of a contract, that's, and some of them get less than that 1%, 2%, whatever.
Speaker 2:But what a lot of them do is they handle all your stuff, so they handle your marketing and then they hook you up with their marketing guy and then that guy will get like 20% of whatever he hooks you up with. You know what I mean? And also I have to say this unfortunately, man, some athletes have been burned by family members or friends that they grew up with, that get caught up into the life themselves. I know one and again I won't name names- yeah, of course. One family member of a player was taking money from the player. There's a few I can think of.
Speaker 1:One that just showed up on the internet.
Speaker 2:It's just a little here or there. It's just $100 here, $1,000 there. You make it so much that you don't miss that thousand dollars there, you don't. You make it so much that you don't miss that. And next thing, you know, you find out this guy's taking a hundred thousand dollars, several hundred thousands of dollars from you, if not more, and so, in that those situations, a lot of guys lose their trust, even sometimes for family members or some other African-Americans, because they've been burned sometimes, and so, um, it's just. I mean, like I said, what I would love to do is have and I have man back in 2014, shaquille O'Neal, and he did it through Credit Suisse Bank and they wanted Credit Suisse wanted to like, meet some prominent African American males and, you know, get their business ultimately.
Speaker 2:But they put together a weekend and it was like 40 high. You know, productive, very productive and wealthy African American men. Bob Johnson, uh, shaq, I was there. Um, tore, you know the rap, rap. You know writer um, some of the wealth, two of the wealthiest African-Americans through real estate um were there and and it was, it was man. So we were at Shaq's house in Orlando and we had these. It was very informal, we had panel discussions, we played basketball, you could play golf, you know, you could get in a spa. We went to an Orlando Magic game and you had informal discussions and stuff and to my knowledge it was all about like let's do something, come together and do something and to my knowledge, nothing really did stay right there, stay right there, stay right there, stay right there, stay right there.
Speaker 1:I'm here in austin, as I mentioned, for a conference called black x, and it's uh austin members of the black community here who are coming together, and you, you touched on something that's so, so important and it's an experience that many of us have had, and I had to in 2002, I called a meeting at my house, as as small as it was, we sat and we sat around my uh dining room table all black educators okay, all black and I had this idea. I never met anybody who had done this before, but I had an idea that we could probably start a school.
Speaker 2:I felt like I see this is before Capital Prep was open. This is before.
Speaker 1:No, it wasn't open. This is before there was even a Capital Prep. Okay, I was running an upper bound program in Hartford and so I'd seen so many of us working in other places and I this Upward Bound program put me in neighborhood schools where I would see my kids in there and they were struggling and I would say I could suck at least as bad as these guys. Why can't I? Why can't I do it? And so I pulled together this group of people and I and for the community from which we were coming, they were the movers and the shakers in that community. We had an all-black front to back. Right light-skinned guys got to really go hard for that stuff.
Speaker 1:so I had to really make sure they understood that we were gonna be bliggity black and we we had a man. We had a typical uh, first black meeting which took too long, spoke too much, but when we were done we had a really good plan. If we ever have another meeting, I bet it'll be as good as that one. So that led. Did that lead to it? Actually didn't. It didn't to your point.
Speaker 2:So the group meeting, it was one time meeting. It turned into nothing.
Speaker 1:It turned into nothing Turned into nothing. It turned into nothing. We as a community can convene like nobody's business what A black person will throw a. A black professional will throw a convention. Faster than you could say Black Baptist, yep, convention. Faster you could say black baptist, yep. We will convene and we'll get buy up all the white hotels and get all the white restaurants and and come, and, and, and and. Dashik it out that we got from chinese store and we will go there and we will put on the aesthetic of blackness and everyone will be uplifted and excited and going go back and do what. I remember when I was in philly uh, I saw your, uh, one of your daughters uh, graduated from penn. My son just uh graduated from there.
Speaker 2:I went there as well congratulations.
Speaker 1:yeah, likewise. Um. So when we were planning the million man march, I I mean I just like I couldn't get there fast enough and I just know what that feeling felt like and to know that so many of us were there and so many of us came away, you couldn't tell. I mean I could have walked back from DC. I could have walked and wouldn't have known, because I was just that jacked Right. So how do we take us from the convenings and the meetings and what have you to the action? How do we take this from there?
Speaker 2:Man, what I was going to say and it's just about what I feel is needed. Now it is another meeting, but it would be if I could do what we did at shacks with 30 athletes not even 30 15 to 20 black athletes, 15, 10 to 15 and expose them to people like you in education, you know economists, you know and make presentations, because I feel like athletes and entertainers could use some of their not even their own money, but connections to help fund, fund little like schools that have shown we can educate our youth and send them to college and they'll be fine.
Speaker 2:We should be like that, should be in every NBA city one of the one thing is we have to be in a space where we can talk black and trust each other and trust each other. And so I don't know the answer, because obviously you have to talk it out, you have to come up with plans and you know we've had trouble, as you said, as a people doing that, we can talk, we can throw the party, we can throw the meeting, but we got to do it Like. I'll give you an example you brought up the photo, the famous photo of Ali Kareem Jim Brown from Cleveland in the late 60s. Jim Brown tried to, he wanted that to grow into what he called the Black Economic Union I think was the name, and which is something like I'm talking about, like some type of getting a funding that could help black people, and nothing came. They did it locally. It still exists, I think, today, but it's very small, never became anything. My thing cause. You know we show that photo and we're all proud of it. Oh they, they was. Look at what they were doing, man, that's what we was telling you for that time, late 60s. That was great, that was a courageous act, just because you could have. You know, blacks are still being killed and stuff like that at that point.
Speaker 2:And but today we need more than that. We need more than a great photo, you know what I mean. We need more than a lot of talk about what we gonna do in this. We need to come together and have plans. And I feel like, see, we're very reactionary in that when there's when, when, when there's an overt uh, situation of rate incident of racism, um, george floyd, or something like that, then we we're up in arms and we want to, you know, do something and have things done and all that change things. But when there's nothing like that, we're just kind of we relax and we just kind of go about whatever's going on. You know, we need to be building constantly, even in peacetime, if you will. You know, when something like that's not happening, you know, you, you bring up a great point.
Speaker 1:so I ask you, as somebody who does communicate with these men as often as you do um, what would you tell them? How would you walk because you mentioned kairi, he's a young dude, he's still a young dude, he's still a young dude how would you walk them through how they could maximize their platform, not just for the greater altruistic good, but for themselves?
Speaker 2:Right. Well, one thing I used to say uh, as far as Kyrie, when he was, you know, making some statements that were, you know, messing up his credibility and things like that. We played in Brooklyn. I was like look you, when you retire at 37 or whatever it might be, you will still be young and you can build up, you can build relationships, you can build up credibility during your career. That if you want, when you retire at 37, to be an activist and to really do all the things you want to do for the black and native american community, then you will have built up such credibility with people that they will help you.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying and you have all that time to do that stuff. You don't necessarily have to do that while you're playing. You will have plenty of time afterwards to do that. But I would also say to players I would say, like I said to me, I would want to gather the players together and just talk to them about you know well, like, say, lebron James, what he's done. I feel like LeBron, in a lot of ways, has set a blueprint for what could be done. I'm not saying it's the end-all be-all, but you remember, before he came into the league a lot of guys had entourages right, they called them entourages and they were just their boys hanging out with them going on the road, with them staying in hotels on the players' dime.
Speaker 1:I remember Vinny Baker had a trail car.
Speaker 2:Vinny Baker had a trail car so he had his whip and then he had a whip behind him Right with his boys and all that, yeah, I mean, and some of these dudes and I'm not even saying it's purposeful, but they end up using a lot of the players' money because they're basically being taken care of by the player. What LeBron did was put. He had his three guys Randy, rich and Maverick and he put them in positions because of his connections. He got them in positions to empower themselves. So, because he was with Nike, rich Paul got a job with Nike. Because, you know, lebron's agent was with CAA, rich worked for him. Rich Paul and Rich learned how. Okay, now I'm going to become my own agent. And now Rich and Maverick are moguls in their own right, that when LeBron retires they'll be fine.
Speaker 2:I would like to see things like that. Instead of letting your boy just hang with you throughout your 15 year career, tell him yo, I'm going to send you to college. Man, you got six years and ideally you do it quicker. When you graduate, you can come work for me or come run my business or you know something like that. I just think innovative way. And I also think with endorsers. I mean, if McDonald's comes to you, gatorade or whatever wants to endorse you, make them do something for the black community.
Speaker 1:You. You have the opportunity to talk to even the players in college who are now pros, always have been. If you could, who would you say what to about their responsibility as they move forward through their career? So who would be the athlete who you would talk to In college? If you could talk to them, college or pros, who would? Who would you if you could pick a player who you felt needed the guidance of a fatherly figure, a good, solid brother? Who would you throw your arm around and what would you say in his ear?
Speaker 2:well what I mean. This one just comes to mind because he's been in trouble recently is, uh, john moran, you know and and trying to help you know, because he was on the verge of blowing it. It seems like he's gotten stuff together off the court, but it's tough man, because the money and the lifestyle can blind a lot of guys. I've had players who are big time superstars and have done it the right way, and I've been like yo. I was saying, in fact, in relation to john, I was like man, why don't you go talk with, talk with john? Why don't y'all give him, you know the, the blueprint? Let him know what there's like man, he ain't trying to listen to us. He ain't trying Like they're not trying to. You set up businesses and been right with your money, haven't been in trouble. They not trying to hear from us. These are players and I believe that A lot of that players aren't listening because they the money, the lifestyle, the fact, it's just it's a room full of ceos.
Speaker 1:It's a room full of ceos.
Speaker 2:I, I get it literally when you say it that way. That's interesting because one thing when I first started covering the league, one thing that surprised me was that now players are friends and some are real tight, but in general the players don't really kick it together. They hang with their boys from college, high school, whatever, and each one is doing that, I guess, because they want to be the big man in their group. But you know, going and playing sports in high school and college, my best friends were my teammates. But in the NBA it's not, or NFL it's not always the same.
Speaker 1:Remember that bubble? That bubble Again. Only a decent high school athlete. For those of us who were not blessed or cursed to have been amazing athletes, for those of us who were not blessed or cursed to have been amazing athletes, we don't have. We didn't have the same bubble experience that the elite did. The elite were never on the AAU team. They were on the, they played, but they were never on the team. There was always somebody at the end of the game. Come on, let's go Right. Come on, let's go Right, ushering them from motel to motel, taking them off like the show puppies that they are. Yeah, so they're. But who would you, if you could pick a person? If it's ja, who would you throw your arm around, whether you thought he was gonna listen or not? Who you think is worth the conversation, even if he hates you for it? What would you say to him?
Speaker 2:Well, I would want to talk and he wouldn't hate me for it. I would want to talk, probably with Jalen Brown, because he's actually said, you know, like he wants to do some stuff, and I'm not saying he doesn't. I haven't seen him doing anything. That's not good. I don't know where his stuff stands at this point, but I would say, like the athlete and the entertainer are not supposed to have all the answers, right he's.
Speaker 2:I don't expect the athlete to know how to start a school or a business, but if we can link him up, so I would say, with jaylen wanting to do a black wall street, well, do you have and again, it don't have to be just black businessmen or black lawyers, but certainly some should be like have are you talking with people who are experts in this, what you're trying to do, and not just white ones, cause a lot of them will. You mentioned it. You got your boys you grow up with, that you hang with and then, in a lot of cases, the people taking care of your business and your money are white and their partner.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and the whole room. Now you're maybe your agent or maybe there's a black face here or there, but no but I'm saying the only black people.
Speaker 1:In many, especially once you get to a certain, for a lot of these athletes, the only black people are in their past, yeah, and are not in a position to help them get to their future. Their wife may be white, their business people are white, so they end up being the black person in their orbit.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep and a lot of ways. One way that a lot of them maintain their connection to the black community is through the parties or the pop culture stuff. Nothing serious, right?
Speaker 1:that's really going very unserious, very unserious I'm still.
Speaker 2:I'm still down because my pants sagging, you know, I'm still down because I hang with such and such a rapper. You know what I mean. I'm at the parties, but when it comes to real and the white people that are advising them in a lot of cases aren't going to be and I'm not even saying that it's always like a negative motive.
Speaker 1:No, but don't come up with that.
Speaker 2:They don't understand all the problems of our people.
Speaker 1:But stay there for a second because what you're saying is really important and powerful. Wearing the costume of blackness, a caricaturization of the African-American experience, is not how one connects to the black experience Right, and the costuming of it is what a lot of these cats do. What I find especially funny speaking in schools is some of your favorite rappers who've been successful. Man, please. A they moved out of the hood and. B their kids go to elite private schools. Yep, like 60, 70 000 a year. Like what are you doing here, jada?
Speaker 2:like you know, like their kids, like wow that's where you know cause there is this feeling that if you didn't grow up in the hood, you not really black. You know what I'm saying a lot of the people that promote that mentality. Like you said, they out once they got the chance. They out of the hood, their the chance, they out of the hood. Their kids are going up out of the hood.
Speaker 1:First chance they get my children in our schools. They're not talking about look, I want to spend my whole life in Harlem. I'm trying to stay forever in Bridgeport. I'm trying to be in the Bronx forever. They're trying to get the first thing moving. You know who's trying to make sure that happens. This guy Like peel out, come back when you got something. You can't save me until you put the mask on your face. You can't stop me from drowning unless you can swim. So don't come and drown with me. I don't want you drowning with me. Go ahead in your business, come back and see what you can do. I literally can't. I know you have a billion things to do.
Speaker 1:I want to make sure that we do, because I do think that there does need to be a very real conversation with some of these brothers. I'm going to tell you something. This could sound crazy. Steve Harvey does this mentoring camp for young boys and I bet you the same thing could be done for some of these young athletes If somebody could get them in a room. Everybody take your phone and put as far away from you as possible.
Speaker 1:Nobody's going to record anything here At all. But nobody's going to record anything here at all. But we're going to shut this door and we have grown man conversations. First thing we're going to do is talk about your dad. We're going to have that conversation. Then we're going to talk about your challenges with faith, because some of these dudes have gone to churches or mosques and things didn't go right. Bad people in those organizations too, and not just in a sexual way. I'm saying it's just bad people in those organizations too, the people Using them and don't feel comfortable in schools because there are bad people there too. So there are a lot of people around them who've made them afraid and they're phenotypically incapable of showing vulnerability because they're gigantic.
Speaker 2:Most people don't realize how big some of these dudes are man people don't think of Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan, as big they're 6'6". If Michael Jordan walked in the room you would be like man. This dude is humongous.
Speaker 1:Gigantic.
Speaker 2:Think about it you can go years, decades in regular life without seeing a person at 6'6".
Speaker 1:And you could go. I know you've seen them. I've seen easily 5,000 amateur games, maybe 10,000. I could round up to 10 and feel like I wouldn't be making it up. You could go to 10,000 amateur games and never see a pro.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, never.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Never, never you could be at such and such high school and such and such, and that dude is the best dude you've ever seen, yep. But oh, he's going to the league sis, the League of Voters maybe that's about it. Like your son, is five foot nothing.
Speaker 2:This is not going to happen for him.
Speaker 1:They really do not understand it.
Speaker 1:They don't understand it, and so those men have been so apex in a particular skill for so long that they've never been made to feel comfortable feeling vulnerable yeah, no you know, in in the opportunities I've had with some of these cats some, you know, obviously I won't name them um, they've, they've come to me and in a, in a vulnerable space, um, especially the cats who are no longer in the league, when all of it is gone, when the women are in the rear view, when the women are now just baby mothers now, now they're not prospects for the night, they're just a headache that you have, that you're fighting for custody with who's trying to, you know, trying to bleed you out, trying to bleed you out. It would be interesting to see if there was a mentoring camp for these men, because I see you doing that with King.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we want to try, because we have a lot of ex-athletes that are involved and we want to try to set it up where we can start getting you know something in place to kind of work with the current athletes in that situation. But it's challenging because of the seasons. You know, the seasons are so things are so demanding on them, and then getting you know the time to do it with them. But, yeah, man, I mean it's. I just feel like I don't want to put too much on our athletes and entertainers, but I feel like I feel like as we fight for justice and equality in our society, I feel like we have a few weapons. One of them, I guess, is the vote. I guess, but that you know, that would be one. But then we have our consumerism, right. I think that's a weapon if we want to boycott or anything. We've seen that in the past.
Speaker 1:And another one is our dominance of popular culture through sports and entertainment and and because our athletes and somewhat something an amazing time I had tonight and, uh, I suspect Brother Bessard is having issues with his internet, so I want to thank you so much for joining us. It was a fantastic conversation. I suspect we'll do it again. We'll run this back. You take good care.