Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger
Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger
Mastering Construction Contracts: Essential Insights with Steve Lesser
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Whether replacing a roof, undergoing major concrete restoration, or updating your common areas, understanding construction contracts is essential to secure the best possible outcome for your repair or renovation projects. In this week’s Take It To The Board podcast, host Donna DiMaggio Berger unlocks the secrets to mastering construction contracts with Steven Lesser, Shareholder and Chair of Becker’s national Construction Law and Litigation Practice.
Join Donna and Steve as they dissect essential elements every community association board and management professional must consider, from setting goals and financial risk assessment to navigating complex timeframes. They share expert techniques on risk mitigation, including liability disclaimers and the importance of verifying contractor credentials and demanding insurance coverage, ensuring you’re well-prepared for the intricacies of your next construction project.
Discover the most common mistakes boards make when signing construction contracts and learn how to avoid them. Donna and Steve walk you through real-life cautionary tales of unlicensed contractors and highlight the necessity of thorough contracts to ward off potential legal and financial pitfalls. With insights into Chapter 558 of Florida law and similar statutes, they empower you with the knowledge to handle the right-to-cure process before escalating to legal action.
From the importance of due diligence to the nuances of termination provisions, this episode covers it all. Learn how to effectively manage the scope of work, payment schedules, and insurance limits to prevent costly errors. Steven’s wisdom extends to dispute resolution strategies, weighing the benefits of arbitration, mediation, and litigation. Whether you’re a seasoned professional or a newcomer to the field, this conversation equips you with invaluable tips to navigate and triumph in the world of construction projects.
Conversation Highlights Include:
- Common issues boards overlook during the initial due diligence phase of large construction projects
- Problems that can arise when the scope of work is ambiguous
- “Change orders” and why they are a common source of disputes in construction contracts
- How boards can protect themselves from excessive or unjustified change orders
- Risks surrounding payment terms and payment schedules in construction contracts
- The importance of timelines, payment and performance bonds and having an effective Owner's Representative
- Warranties and guarantees boards should require in their construction contracts
- Effective dispute resolution mechanisms
BONUS: Learn the #1 mistake boards can easily avoid when signing construction contracts
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Hi everyone. I'm attorney Donna DiMaggio-Berger and this is Take it to the Board, where we speak condo and HOA. Welcome back to Take it to the Board, the podcast where we hammer out the details on everything community association related. Today, we're nailing down the essentials of construction contracts with none other than my partner and a true titan of the construction law world, steve Lesser. Whether you're replacing a roof, undergoing major concrete restoration or just updating your common areas, understanding construction contracts is essential.
Speaker 1Steve Lesser is a shareholder and chair of Becker's National Construction Law and Litigation Practice, based in Fort Lauderdale, florida. Steve is board certified in construction law by the Florida Bar and devotes his practice exclusively to construction law and litigation. He is also a Florida certified civil circuit mediator and certified arbitrator on construction issues for the American Arbitration Association. Steve is the past chair of the American Bar Association's Forum on Construction Law, the largest organization of construction lawyers in the world. In 2019, he was selected as the recipient of the Cornerstone Award, the highest honor presented by the forum. Steve currently serves as chair of the Florida Bar Board of Legal Specialization and Education, which oversees all 27 specialty areas of legal certification in Florida. Steve also is the recipient of the 2024 Justice Harry Lee Anstead Award, which recognizes the Florida Bar Board Certified Lawyer of the Year.
Speaker 1By the way, he's got a lot of other awards, too many to mention in this introduction, so we will put a link to Steve's bio in the show notes. Now, outside of his legal work, steve is committed to giving back to the community. I'm going to ask him a little bit about that if we have time in this episode. He's an active member of Top Soccer, a community-based program for young athletes with disabilities, and was honored to have been named as a Top Soccer Volunteer of the Year. So with all of that, steve, welcome to Take it to the Board.
Speaker 2Thank you, donna, really appreciate you having me here today.
Speaker 1Oh, I can't tell you how pleased we are to have you here because, listen, construction contracts are top of mind right now for so many associations, given how many projects they've got going on right now.
Speaker 2So maybe we start out, Steve, with just your overall philosophy from the owner of a project's perspective on construction contracts spent representing owners of construction projects, whether they are condominium association homeowners, single family homeowners, owners of museum properties, owners of mixed use development projects, large scale condominiums, museums and country club communities. So I've kind of been through the ringer for the last 40 years in representing owners. So I'm kind of biased with respect to where I come out with respect to construction on behalf of the owner. But the outset of any construction project with any owner, the first question that you have to ask is what is your objective? What is the owner trying to accomplish? What's your timeframe for getting something done? What are the financial risks involved? In other words, if you're getting a construction loan, if it takes longer, then you're going to be exposed to more damages. So you need to find out right from the get-go about what your owner or client really wants to accomplish. And that's the first question, because two owners are not alike. They're often very, very different and sometimes they don't know what they want, and so it's the lawyer's job to figure out and get that on the table, to figure out what the client's objective is first. Figure out and get that on the table to figure out what the client's objective is first.
Speaker 2But the way that I approach construction contracts for owners is as follows it's all a risk proposition, and what I mean by that is I say to myself okay, the first thing I want to do for my owner is I want to figure out a way to disclaim any liability whatsoever for whatever happens on this job. I want to be a fat, dumb and happy owner. I just want to pay money. I want to get the job done, but I first have to look at what the risk factor is. So, first of all, I want to make sure I disclaim any liability for anything I'm doing. And if I can't disclaim that liability, I want to shift the liability. I want to take that risk and I want to say okay, mr Architect, if you're designing this project, you're responsible for design. Mr Contractor, if you're building the project, you're responsible for construction and I'll just be responsible for paying.
Speaker 1Now, if I can't shift it, then maybe I want to-, because a lot of times they don't want, they're pushing back their counsel's also pushing back against you, steve, because they want to disclaim their responsibilities.
Speaker 2Exactly so. It's really a give and take. But if they say to me, okay, no, we're not going to let you shift the liability to them, then I got to figure out how do I mitigate my damages. If I'm going to be responsible for something, how do I mitigate that? Maybe I say, okay, well, you're responsible for the first 10% or 20% of a cost escalation, whatever, and I'll be responsible for the rest. But at the end of the day, if I can't disclaim it, if I can't shift it, if I can't mitigate it, then I got to figure out a way to insure it, to make sure that my client doesn't get in trouble and doesn't end up paying on the backside after the project is complete.
Speaker 2Another problem and another important thing that owners need to understand is that they are responsible for the design of the project. So they think that if they hire an engineer, they're scot-free. Sometimes they don't check to see if the engineer even has insurance. And that's dangerous, because if the owner's responsible for guaranteeing that the design of the project is buildable, if the contractor can't build it because of design defects and you've got an engineer or architect that doesn't have any money or any insurance, well, guess what? The owner's responsible for the sins of the architect or the engineer in the design.
Speaker 1So that whole puzzle really needs to be addressed right at the get-go to figure out how you can best represent your client if they're an owner of a construction project involved with the design. I guess I do have one client I'm thinking about Steve where they took everything off their plaza deck and they have completely redesigned it. So is that? Would that come into play with what you just mentioned?
Speaker 2Well, here's the rub with that, donna. You know, sometimes boards don't even want to hire an engineer or an architect. They've got somebody on their board that used to be a designer in New York or an interior designer or something else, and they say, well, we don't need to spend the money, we'll just have him do it. And oftentimes they rely on the contractor to give them some sort of a design, but the contractor is not a designer. In Florida, the licensing laws are very, very strict and you can't be a contractor and design things unless you have a designer on your staff. Likewise, an architect or engineer can't construct anything unless he's a general contractor. So one of the biggest problems is that oftentimes associations don't want to spend the money to get a proper design or not. And another thing that comes into mind is that sometimes they rely upon a design that is not good and is ineffective and, for example, if they design something and it doesn't work like a planner, they put a planner on an existing deck and then it leaks like a sieve. Maybe that there was a detail in that design drawing that made it defective.
Speaker 2Sometimes I recommend to my clients larger scale clients. Maybe you get a peer review. In other words, get another architect to look over what the plans are, to make sure that for a couple thousand dollars they can have another set of eyes. Look at that design drawing to tell you whether or not it's going to work or not. That's important because a lot of these are million, multi-million dollar projects and renovations where a lot can go wrong, and a new set of eyes looking at the same plans may come up with something and find a detail where the flashing was omitted and is an avenue for water penetration and other problems.
Speaker 1So we urge our volunteer board members not to play architect, engineer, attorney, accountant. Shouldn't they be able to rely your example regarding that planter? Because I have a lot of clients that do that, a lot of associations. They're very excited about the aesthetic projects, not so much about the rank and file maintenance, but the aesthetics get them really excited. Shouldn't they be able, steve, to rely on the architect who designed that? They're volunteers, they're not professionals, so they're looking to the architect to make sure that the design he or she drew is going to be safe code compliant.
Speaker 2Well, let's take a page out of your book, donna, because you represent hundreds of associations you have in your lifetime, and the fact of the matter is is that you know clients. Board members can rely on the business judgment role. They rely on their professionals to give them good, solid advice on how to design a project. They shouldn't be taking that away from the architect. They should rely upon those people to tell them that and they need to rely upon those people that are licensed and they need to rely on those people that are insured. Lots of times you know boards don't even check to see whether or not the architect or the engineer is properly insured. If they're not properly insured and there's a problem, well then there's no one to go after. So, yes, I mean they need to rely upon architects, engineers, and they need to rely upon their lawyer as well for advice to get them through all this.
Common Mistakes in Construction Contracting
Speaker 1So what are some of the common issues boards overlook during their initial due diligence the initial due diligence phase of a large construction project in your experience?
Speaker 2Well, my experience is that number one nobody checks to see if the contractor is actually licensed, believe it or not. I had one instance where a very large scale, very reputable, famous, landmark country club said to me hey, we just hired an interior design firm and they designed the clubhouse at Augusta and we're going to use them to do our interior design. So I looked it up on the public records, because anybody can look up and find out if someone is licensed or not by going to the Florida Bar DPBR website and checking. And this person was not licensed. And I called them up and I said he's not licensed. You know, you really shouldn't use him. And they said oh well, he did Augusta, he's good enough for us. But you know, the fact of the matter is is that you know? Same thing goes true with another large scale country club, very infamous, nationally known. They were redesigning their golf course and they hired a golf course company out of New Jersey and that person in that company wasn't licensed in Florida. And the reason we have to be licensed in Florida is because when you start digging trenches, interfering with drainage, plumbing, electrical, you can regrade a golf course, don't necessarily have to have a license. But if you're doing all these other things, you have to be licensed, and they had somebody and they weren't even licensed.
Speaker 2Great golf course designers, great golf course construction, but not licensed. People overlook that all the time and that's a recipe for disaster, because the last thing that a board member wants is for later on for the next board to question what happened, find out that it was a lousy deal, and then find out that the other board hired someone that wasn't even a licensed professional. So these things can turn sour very, very quickly. And when you think about it, you can avoid all that by just checking online. It would take you less than five minutes to do it, but lots of time it's overlooked. Another thing that they often do is they tell me hey, steve, we want a very short contract, we don't want a long contract, and that is like insane to say something like that, because whether you are putting in a generator or putting in a new roof or rewiring electrical panels, the risk is all the same. Bad things can happen.
Speaker 1Why do they ask for a short one?
Speaker 2Do they think you charge by the word, or Well, you know, some of them say that we don't want to be bothered with long contracts, et cetera, et cetera. But there are key clauses that are just unavoidable in any contract. You've got to say who the parties are. You've got to talk about what the scope of work is. You've got to talk about how you're going to get paid. You've got to make sure that you're going to get waivers and releases of lien, because you've got to comply with the Florida construction lien law, otherwise your owner may end up paying twice for the same kind of work. You've got to talk about identification.
Speaker 2What happens if the association gets sued because of the acts of the contractor and a third party sues them? You want to make sure that the contractor is responsible for what they do and what they don't do, and that the owner is not accountable for the sins of the contractor. You have to have termination provisions in there. You have to have certain waivers of Chapter 558, which is really important the NOSA Right to Cure Act, and so all these things have to go through in the contract and you have to address those very carefully in the contract so someone can say, oh, give me a one-page contract, it makes no sense. You have to give them a contract that protects the association. That's what we're paid to do, and to try and dilute that is really a terrible thing, and I have agreed not to take on clients because they insist on having something that I don't think is in their best interest.
Speaker 1So for our listeners, steve referenced chapter 558. That's a Florida statute. That is a statute that's designed to require, before an association or an owner of a project can sue a contractor for defective work, you have to test beforehand.
Speaker 2Yeah, Well, what the point of the statute was and I have a love-hate relationship with the statute because when it came out I just saw it was a lousy deal for associations and argued against it in Tallahassee. It got passed anyways. But what it does is this, a convoluted procedure whereby in the old days, a condominium association or a homeowner's association or a single family homeowner, whatever if they were wrong, they can go down to the courthouse and sue somebody. The legislature said, hey, stop, you can't do that. You got to give me a notice, you got to give me a right to cure. If there are other people responsible to me that had a hand in this, I got to give them notice, give them an opportunity.
Speaker 2And this whole process could take 120 days. It's only after that process occurs and I don't accept whatever they're offering me. If they are offering me anything, then can I sue somebody. So it's a lousy deal for associations and for homeowners because it delays their right to get justice. And so you can always agree down the road to hey, give them a right to cure if you feel like you want to do that. But why should you be obligated to go through a convoluted procedure, put your project on hold for several, several months, without any relief in sight, you know. So that's part of it.
Speaker 1You lecture throughout the United States and we've got people listening throughout the US. Are there other?
Speaker 2states. I imagine there's other states that have similar chapters. There are many states that have noticed the right to cure acts. They're all different in nature but they're essentially the same. You can't go ahead and sue me until you go through this procedure.
Speaker 1Pump the brakes a little Yep.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly, but you know. Another thing I was going to say is that lots of times associations they don't know what they're getting. For example, they sign a roof contract for a million dollars to replace roofs and they're supposed to get a five-year warranty, but they've never seen the form of the warranty. And then they see the form of the warranty and it excludes roof leaks, believe it or not. Okay, so what you have to do is you know when any association gets into a situation whether it's for concrete restoration, roofing, clubhouse renovations, whatever if you're getting a warranty, ask to see the form of the warranty that they're going to give you at the end of the job, so you know exactly what you're going to get, because otherwise you're going to be disappointed. We've seen roof warranties issued by manufacturers of roofing material like GAF and Johns Mansville their 20-year warranties. You say that's great and all the association knows is that they have a 20-year warranty. Well, when you look at it, it tells you that if you have a dispute with one of these companies, you got to litigate it in a court of competent jurisdiction in New Jersey, or you got to go to arbitration and you can only get recovery for actual leaks. So you can have blisters all over the roof, but it's not leaking yet, so you don't have a claim under the warranty. All these things have to be fleshed out at the get-go.
Importance of Due Diligence in Construction
Speaker 2And I'll tell one other tale, donna and I think it's an important point is that the owner of a construction project they have the most leverage before the contract is signed. Because before the contract is signed they have the money. The contractor wants to work. Once the contractor signs that agreement and he gets that deposit, you're off to the races. Now the contractor's in control and you're at their mercy until that job gets done. Your old news. That's why you have to have termination clauses in there, in case they take advantage of the owner. The owner has a way to get rid of them.
Speaker 1I want to circle back to due diligence. This is very important. You're right, your leverage is at the beginning. It's like a new relationship. You're in the honeymoon phase, then you get married, it's like a new relationship. You're in the honeymoon phase. Then you get married A little bit different. You mentioned proof of licensure that they've licensed. How helpful is checking if they've had complaints with the Better Business Bureau or the division and checking references on contractors? Have you found in your experience that that's helpful as well as part of an association's due diligence?
Speaker 2Most important thing I will tell you is the references, because the best thing that you can find out is how has that contractor performed for other people in similar situations? If you got a project in Palm Beach County, broward, escambia County, tallahassee, wherever you're at, you need to find out what the track record is is, because that is the most best indicator of whether they're going to perform or not. Mostly everybody you know you can get a licensed. You can check whether or not there are complaints on the license. You can find out how dated those complaints are.
Speaker 2But the most important thing is did the contractor do what he said he's going to do? Did he do it on time? And another important thing even if you're not going to get a payment and performance bond, it's really important to find out whether they can get a payment and performance bond Because if they can, that is an indication that there is a surety or an insurance company out there that has looked at this contractor's financials and has said, yes, they're strong enough financially to do this job and that if there are people that need to be paid subcontractors et cetera they're going to get paid because the contractor has the financial wherewithal to do so If they can't get a bond, that's a good indication that maybe they don't have the financial strength. If they get stretched out on another job that's unrelated to yours, it may impact your job and the success of it With associations.
Speaker 1Steve, on these construction contracts, are you typically working with just one or two members of the board, a construction committee, the manager, a combination of all those folks?
Speaker 2Combination of all of them. I mean sometimes you have a very strong manager at the head. That makes things a lot easier. More difficult is when you have a construction committee and you have like five or six people and they've come from various backgrounds and they start lecturing you about their past life, which has absolutely nothing to do with what you're doing in Florida. That can really bog down the process. And then you send them a draft of the contract and you've got notes from all different committee members. There's no uniformity, there's no consistency, they're just like all over the place, and that contributes to the cost of getting this work done.
Speaker 2What I like to do is, like I said before, like to find out what the client's objective is at the get-go.
Speaker 2Oftentimes I know the other lawyers that are on the other side of these things, so I know what they'll tolerate, what they can't tolerate, and I go over a lot of the questions that typically come up, like, for example, if they're late, do you want to go after liquidated damages, which is a daily rate of what the anticipated cost is going to be to the association if the project is late on a daily basis.
Speaker 2Sometimes they say well, if I give them liquidated damages and you have to pay me $300 a day, then I have to give them a bonus of $300 a day. Well, there's nothing in the law that says you have to do that, and maybe it's not within the client's benefit to give somebody a bonus. Maybe they don't care if they finish early, they just want to be finished on time. And lots of times you bring up this issue about liquidated damages and the client says well, I don't want any liquidated damages. And I think that's a real big mistake. Because says well, I don't want any liquidated damages. And I think that's a real big mistake because liquidated damages not only compensate you for lost time and administrative costs that you may incur, but it also gives the contractor financial incentive to get the work done in a timely basis.
Speaker 1Well, I'm struggling to understand why a board wouldn't want to protect their interests, especially with a lengthy project that it's going to come in on time assuming that there's no other force majeure, you know, storm coming in or anything like that because they're getting pressure from their owners. These projects are very disruptive to the people living in the building. I'm really struggling to understand why a board wouldn't want liquidated damages when it comes to a time-consuming project.
Speaker 2You know, most of the time, donna, it comes down to these people with past experiences. Well, I had experience in liquidated damages. Didn't really mean anything and we're going to alienate the contractor if we ask for liquidated damages. But you know, donna, when you think about it, think about all those managers out there. Think about the pressure that they're under when that pull deck is closed. Think about the pressure that they're under when that pool deck is closed. Think about the pressure that they're under where, on the balconies, they're all shuttered up and they can't go out on the balcony because there's concrete restoration work. Think about when the pool can't be used during Thanksgiving, when all the grandchildren come down, and the havoc that's wreaked upon the management office when that happens.
Speaker 2That's why you have to make sure that the contractor gets done on time, and it also not only liquidated damages.
Speaker 2But the best thing you can do in some instances would be to get an owner's rep or someone that's going to look at that schedule, administer the schedule and if there are lapses or the time is not being spent wisely and it looks like you're getting into a delay period, someone's got to raise their hand and say, hey, we're in delay territory here. We need to do something about it, because if there's somebody that does that, then you can mitigate the delay. You can say okay, we have a problem, let's get together, let's meet. What's the revised schedule? What's holding you up? How do we get this project back on track? A lot of these things are avoidable if you know about them. But if the contractor's out there and he's not submitting an updated project schedule, no one's monitoring the schedule, no one's administering the project like they should, then the work gets underwater very, very quickly in terms of delay and that just means you're going to have a very dissatisfied association and a bunch of unit owners that are not going to be happy.
Speaker 1You know, when this really becomes painful with delays, Steve, is when you have associations with a large percentage of investor owners who are renting out the units and they've got tenants that are saying I'm going to leave, I can't. You mentioned the balconies. That's a good example. I'm paying for this unit, I can't use the balcony, I can't use the pool, I'm out of here. It's those communities that really feel the impact if the projects go on, if they're delayed, if they go well past the anticipated completion date.
Speaker 2Yeah, and, as you know, donna, oftentimes the administration of the schedule is often left to the architect or the engineer.
Speaker 2But most of these architects and engineers are very good designers, they're very good engineers, but they're not very good at interpreting schedules and they're not very good in hurting the cats to make sure the job is done on time.
Speaker 2That's why it's really important In some instances I recommend that the association hire an owner's representative that will do exactly that, because they will be their eyes and ears on the job. Some associations say, well, I don't want to spend the money, but the fact of the matter is it's really money well spent to get somebody out there to make sure that this project gets done on time, because time is your enemy. If you can't get that project done on time, then you're going to, you know, in terms of you know municipality requirements now, getting milestone inspections done, getting repairs being done on time, being subjected to fines if you don't get it done, all those things going to play. And also, the longer a project goes on, the longer you're going to tease out your construction loan. It's just going to cost you a lot more money on the backside of things. So time is your enemy and you need to combat that by taking over that schedule and administering it properly.
Speaker 1That role is also a great buffer between the board and the angry mob of residents that they will eventually face if it goes on too long. I want to go back to the construction committee, just because I was smiling when you brought it up. I have construction committees in a few communities and it's inevitable that it's like Joe, who actually was recently Joe, built the Grand Central Station, joe, who I actually was recently Joe, built the Grand Central Station. So he needs to. He knows everything that's going on or so, and so you know, did roads and not to discount these people's experience, but often it's not helpful when trying to apply it to a concrete restoration project in Florida, or painting or roofing or what have you.
Speaker 2You hit it on the head. The most important thing you have to understand is that Florida is very different from other areas of the country. Florida has the toughest licensing laws than anybody does. They have the toughest construction lien laws than anybody does. You really need to be well-versed in all these aspects to understand it. Plus, the labor force is so different.
Speaker 2Down in Florida, you know, up in New York you might have unions, union labor, you know. Down here, you know, not necessarily so those are. You know the labor market really drives the train and the problem that you have down here is that when people are busy building and they are busy right now, I mean you see cranes like all over the place. What does that tell you? It tells you that the labor force is really being stretched, especially specialized labor like millwork, woodworking, those kinds of people, mechanical contractors, electrical contractors, all the good trades are really being taken, which means that a lot of projects are being started and they have lousy trades.
Speaker 2And when they have lousy trades they don't perform efficiently, they don't perform carefully and they're rushing to get the job done so they can go on to another job. And that's where the problems arise with respect to these construction defects, because when you're rushing through construction and you don't have proper supervision, you don't have great trades out there. You're just looking for a problem. And when associations is going to spend a couple million bucks on a renovation, they want to make sure it's done right. You better make sure that the contractor that you sign up has a really proven track record in getting these things done and they have organized and capable trades they're going to use when doing the work. Otherwise you may have a problem.
Speaker 1You know, I had Alessandra Bianchini from Carousel on the podcast last year I think it was last year and we were talking about the trades and one of the questions I asked her is how do you find people? You know, do we have kids coming out of high school that are going into trades now, that are becoming carpenters and electricians and plumbers? And she admitted that it was an issue. It is an important question when is next generation trades people coming from?
Speaker 2Well, I think that a lot of the bigger contractors actually have big trading programs that they recruit people out of college to get in their training programs. University of Florida has a very good construction degree that they offer and I think that a lot of the big builders are actually putting people and spending the money to put them through advanced training so that they have specialized trades with experience that they can use on their jobs. So I think that that's helping quite a bit.
Speaker 1Let's talk about scope of work, because you mentioned that at the outset, how important it is to have a defined scope of work in the contract. How can boards protect themselves from excessive or unjustified change orders that must tie into the scope of work right.
Contractor Scope, Payment, Insurance Advice
Speaker 2Well, it does. And it gets back to this issue about the most important and you've heard me say this before, donna, in many presentations is that the most important and you've heard me say this before, donna, in many presentations is that the most important component in the construction industry, when you're an owner seeking to do a construction project, is not the lawyer. I'd love to tell you it's a lawyer, but it's really not. It's really the engineer or the architect, because those people are scoping out the work. They really need to know what they're doing because they want to make sure that the scope is complete. If you don't have a scope of work that's been clearly vetted by a very capable architect or engineer, there may be some things missed, and when you have a scope of work, the contractor is only responsible for doing what is in the scope of work. Anything outside that scope of work is going to be the subject of a change order, and then you're going to get killed because they're going to mark up a change order by, you know, 10 percent overhead, 10 percent profit plus the actual cost of the work, and you could look at a very sizable amount as a change order which was not anticipated during the course of the job, a contractor's proposal, they'll say in their scope of work. They'll say anything that is not specifically listed above is excluded from the scope of work and will be the subject of a change order. So how do you get around that you hire the best possible capable engineer, architect that you have?
Speaker 2If you're going to hire an engineer and you're doing a concrete restoration job, you need to hire an engineer that does concrete restoration. Don't hire an engineer that does roofing. Don't hire an engineer that does windows. Hire an engineer that does concrete restoration because they prepare a survey and if their survey is really, you know it's not exact science, because who knows what's behind the concrete when they sound it, how much delamination there is.
Speaker 2But if you hire somebody that is not skilled, that doesn't have the wisdom about how these things usually turn out, you may get an inaccurate survey. You may end up paying three times what the cost is of what you think the work is, and that's a disaster for any association especially. You've sat through all those special assessment meetings where they've already assessed the owners. You know, several thousands of dollars per unit. Now they come back for another bite of the apple because they find out they have more restoration. It's not like they're doing work that doesn't need to be done. It's just the surprise at finding out how much work needs to be done at this point in time.
Speaker 1I mean, the only thing worse than one special assessment is two special assessments. But I want to give you an example for that scope of work. If you're a high-rise, even a mid-rise, you're doing a concrete restoration project. You have to take into account hurricane shutters and sliding doors. These components are going to have to be removed, right, but a lot of times they're not addressed. If those items are not addressed in the scope of work, even though it's obvious that you have to remove shutters to perform the underlying concrete restoration, in some contracts, steve, is it possible that the contractor is treating removal of sliding doors and shutters as exclusions, and now that's a change order and more money.
Speaker 2Absolutely. You know, removing and storing these sliding glass door shutters for windows is a tedious job. It's very tedious, but yeah, that could be excluded. I'll give you another example. I had a case where it was a large-scale parking garage and it says the parking garage will be painted, but it didn't say the interior of the parking garage was going to be painted. So the contractor took the position and said I'm not obligated to paint the interior of the garage. All it talks about is the exterior of the garage. So the interior was not painted. It was a big number because there was a lot of square footage that needed to be painted there. So things like that, where things are just missed and they didn't have a careful engineer looking out for the association, they didn't have an owner's rep looking out for the association, and that's what happens when you have these issues.
Speaker 1Let's talk about payment and payment terms, payment schedules and, specifically, large deposits. So a lot of times these contractors are asking for 50% upfront. Can you talk a little bit about what associations and any owner should be looking for in terms of payment schedules and terms?
Speaker 2Well, okay, typically let's talk about it from the end of it Every job should have some sort of retainage or amount withheld that you're paying the contractor in the course of the job. Usually it's 10%, it could be 15% perhaps, and that amount of money is being held until the end of the job, until final payment is ready, which means that all the work is done, all the approvals have been issued by the municipality, that you have release and waivers of lien, you have all their warranties, and then you get that retainage that's being withheld At the outset. I had a roof contract the other day. The roof contract was for two2.5 million and the contractor said he wanted to be paid $200,000 when the contract was signed, $300,000 when the permit was issued. So think about it Right from the get-go. There's no work that's been done. The contractor's got $500,000 of a $2.5 million contract in his hands. It's not right, it's not fair and it shouldn't be done.
Speaker 2What the contractor needs to get at the outset is maybe a mobilization fee, money to get him started, get his labor, his materials to the job, and then, after that initial mobilization fee, then you pay him in progress payments as you go about until you're done and then you get the payment of the retainer to the end. The only exception is if you have to hire custom long lead type items, such as custom sliding glass doors, windows et cetera. Then they get a more upfront deposit, more significant upfront deposit. And then you got the issue how do I know if I pay that upfront deposit I'm actually going to get the product? That's where the bonding comes in, so that the bonding company will ensure that when you pay that deposit they're going to cover and backstop that you're going to get value for that deposit that's paid. Or you have to go to a joint checks type situation where you pay not only the contractor but the manufacturer, the materials that they're making to make sure that you're protected and you have some recourse in case things go bad.
Speaker 1I was going to ask you is that a red flag? If a contractor is asking for a big amount upfront, Can it sometimes mean that they're not capitalized well?
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean they're front-end loading the whole concept. They're probably taking that money and using it to finance some other job. I mean, in my dirty mind that's what it tells me. I don't like to think badly of people, but the fact of the matter is is that why should you ever pay a contractor anything more than they actually need? That's where you can rely upon your engineer. Again, to keep it straight, to say, in my experience, you know, I think only 10 percent should be paid up front. That's adequate amount for your scaffolding. You get your men and equipment there. It all depends upon what kind of work they're doing.
Speaker 2If you're doing concrete restoration on several high-rise buildings in one project and you have scaffolding all over the place, obviously your costs and mobilization costs are going to be higher. But if you got a roof that you're putting on in one building and you're asking for 25% of the money up front, it's a bad sign, sends the wrong signal, you know. And another thing is we're talking about bonding a little bit, donna. But I want to get into insurance. I don't want to really lose out on that, because one of the key aspects of contracting for associations and for owners is insurance and lots of times it's overlooked. And I'll tell you why. On any job you want to get commercial general liability insurance, you want to get automobile liability insurance, you want to maybe get excess or umbrella policies of insurance and you also want to get workers' comp comp. And associations seem to say, okay, that's fine, I guess they're exempt, so we don't have to worry about it. But they're wrong, because if somebody gets hurt on the job, that may come back to plague the association with paying for someone's injury.
Speaker 2In all these instances, with insurance it is so specialized and most associations have an insurance broker that they hire to sell them their insurance. I tell them look at the contractor's certificate of insurance which, by the way, you can't rely upon because it says it's for information purposes only. But take that certificate of insurance, talk to your broker, give them a copy of the contract that I've drafted and find out whether they think that the contractor's insurance is adequate for the type of work that they're doing. I would say, like you said, rely upon your professionals. The insurance broker is a professional, he's a professional when it comes to insurance. And why shouldn't the association use the broker to vet the insurance that the contractor has? And maybe they can let the contractor slide on some level of insurance because they know that their ordinary coverage will pick it up that they already have in place. So having the insurance broker being involved with that is very, very important.
Speaker 1Well, it's a great point. And, by the way, exempt doesn't mean that they can't obtain the insurance if they want to pay for it. So I mean, we even encounter this, steve, with landscape companies. Okay, so maybe they have hired a landscaper and he doesn't have sufficient number of employees to require him to carry workers comp doesn't mean he can't get it. So it's always best practices to have, whoever you're doing business with, have that coverage.
Speaker 2Yeah, well, here's my point, Donna. With all this stuff, everything we've talked about here, it's all about accountability. I'm a lawyer. I'll be accountable for what I do or don't do, okay, but a contractor needs to be held accountable. He's in charge of that project and, like I said at the beginning, once we sign that contract, he gets to deposit the contract and control that site. If he causes damages to us, if he causes consequential damages to us, they should be accountable for that. We shouldn't allow them to weasel out of their responsibility to be accountable, only to have the association pay for their mistakes. Likewise, the same thing true as design professionals. People need to be accountable for what they do or what they don't do, and that's the general objective with respect to representing owners is to make those people accountable for what we're paying for them to do.
Terminating Contractors and Dispute Resolution
Speaker 1You know that's a great segue for me to go and reiterate my legal disclaimer on the podcast that this is not legal advice for your specific association. Steve and I are having a general conversation, so what you're hearing, make sure you discuss with your own counsel what your needs are pertaining to a construction project. Just want to make sure no one's listening to counsel what your needs are pertaining to a construction project. Just want to make sure no one's listening to us thinking we are speaking directly to them about their specific contract or construction project. That being said, let's talk about the whole project's gone off the rails. Okay, Steve, either the contractor let's first start with contractor has walked off the project, they can't deal with it anymore and and there's no bonding in place. What's the next step?
Speaker 2Well, you know, your only choice then is to terminate them and to make sure that you terminate them, which is what I call a three martini decision, because termination is always likely to cause some litigation along the way somehow and when you terminate, depending upon when you terminate oftentimes there are people that have not been paid subcontractors and suppliers that you may have paid the contract. They haven't been paid, so they're leading the job, and that's just a nightmare in and of itself. But more importantly is, if you've got a project that's half done, let's say the swimming pool job or a concrete restoration job how do you finish the job? Well, you've got to find another contractor that's willing to come on and complete the job. You're going to probably have to pay them a premium, because if you entered into the original contract six months ago, the price are probably a lot higher now and, depending upon what the economy is doing in terms of materials like lumber and steel and concrete, you may be subject to escalation of those materials a lot more than they were when you originally contracted. It's probably going to cost you a lot more.
Speaker 2Money Gets back to your issue about. The only thing worse about one special assessment is two. Now you're going to have to specially assess to go ahead and get the project done. And then you've got a problem with warranties, because the contractor you hired already did work in place. He warranted that. But what good is it? It's half done, Now somebody's going to cover up their work, and now you're going to have a warranty problem too. So it's ripe for disaster. That's why you really need in any contract whether it's a one-pager or two-pager or 10-pager you need a termination provision in there that tells you how you go about terminating a contract and what your rights and remedies are in the event that happens.
Speaker 1I mean and let's be honest, if a successor contractor goes out there, don't they know they have you over the barrel? I mean, they're looking around at a half completed project.
Speaker 2You're a captive audience and you're at a complete disadvantage because you need to get the job done.
Speaker 2You need to open up that swimming pool, you need to get those balconies unlocked so people can enjoy their units, otherwise there's going to be a lynch mob at your door and you're not going to like it.
Speaker 2So, yeah, you're really behind the barrel, which is why it comes to our point down in this podcast about why you need to be so prepared, upfront, to discuss and confront all these issues to make sure that none of this bad stuff happens. Now we can't guarantee anything. Bad stuff is going to happen here and there, but you want to really avoid the disaster and you can do that if you carefully plan this thing and not run through it. But take your time, figure out what you want to accomplish and get the best professionals you can to represent you and make sure you're backstopped with insurance bonding if it suits you, if the job justifies it Because not every job justifies a bond Bonding can be one and a half to three and a half percent of the contract sum, so it could be very expensive, but in some instances that bond in place could give you a lot of leverage in terms of resolving the problem.
Speaker 1So if a dispute is inevitable, Steve, what do you think is the most effective dispute resolution clause in these contracts?
Speaker 2All right. Well, first of all, let me make this one statement about dispute resolution. If you've got a bond, understand that if you enter into a contract with Donaburger LLC, general contractor, and Donaburger LLC gets a surety bond, the backstopper and Donaburger LLC terminates the job and walks off the job and doesn't do anything. If I go after the bonding company, guess what? I've got Donaburger individually. You know why? Why, because Donna Berger individually signed an indemnity agreement with the bonding company that says Mr Bonding Company, if you have to put out any money on my behalf, then it comes back out of my pocket and I've collateralized my house, my truck and my farm to make sure that you are protected. So one way to resolve a dispute if you have a bond, you go after that bonding company. The first thing they're going to do is notify their principal to say that, hey, if we have to pay them any money, it's coming out of your pocket individually, so you can't declare bankruptcy. What do you want to do? That's a really big leverage.
Speaker 1Also, I would never do any of that, Steve.
Construction Dispute Resolution and Renovation Trends
Speaker 2Of course not. You're too smart, but anyway you know. But that's why contractors don't like to actually give bonds, because it can transform into individual liability. But in terms of dispute resolution projects, I do not like arbitration at all. I'm an arbitrator, I arbitrate these cases all the time. I don't like them because, whatever the result is, it's final and sometimes you don't get a fair shake as an owner in arbitration because most of the people that arbitrate these disputes are architects, engineers, maybe contractor-oriented, et cetera.
Speaker 2I don't mean to generalize, but I am generalizing here just to give you a flavor for it. I'm also a mediator. I think mediation is very, very good. I don't like to demand that the parties absolutely have to go to mediation first. I put in there that the parties are. It's recommended that you may want to choose to go to mediation. It's a good way to resolve your dispute. My typical, favorite way of solving disputes is to say the first thing if you have a dispute, then the principles of each side get together and see if they can resolve themselves. I'm meeting decision makers for the association making decision makers for the contractor. They meet within so many days and they see if they can come out to an agreement. If they can't meet by doing that, then they go to mediation. If they can't solve that, then you go to mediation. If they can't solve that, then you go to court, in a court of competent jurisdiction where the project is located to resolve your dispute.
Speaker 1So is a request to waive a jury trial. Is that a throwaway clause in your opinion or one where you stand firm? I see that frequently a request to waive a jury trial.
Speaker 2Well, it's not a bad idea to waive a jury trial because you know you've worked on a construction case that is very complex. It takes you three years to figure out what the case is about, let alone trying to persuade a bunch of jurors to figure out. You know what the case is about. Maybe you want to, you know, give it to a judge to do it, depending upon what judge it is. Of course, that really matters.
Speaker 2But I will tell you that in this climate, in but I will tell you that in this climate, in the aftermath of Surfside and everything else, in the aftermath of Florida having such strong licensing requirements and unlicensed contractors being in the newspaper all the time, it may make sense for you to go in front of a jury if you're an owner, because I think juries may sympathize more with owners of construction projects. They've had the contractor who was supposed to put in a new door that they paid for and they never came back and installed the door, or they have a leaking roof or something like that. They can understand what the association is going through at the time. So I think that in many respects it depends upon the case, but I'd say if it's a run-of-the-mill defect case. I think you're better off being in front of a jury, because I think jurors can relate to it Somebody not fulfilling their promise.
Speaker 1That was my gut instinct, just because they're asking for it so regularly that I'm guessing that contractors must feel that they are going to be less sympathetic to a jury than the owner that has laid out all this money for the project.
Speaker 2Well, you can imagine one of the big developers going in front of a jury and trying to explain why the hurricane trusses were put in backwards I mean, they're not going to look very, it's not going to be a very good look for them or why there's such shoddy work. And you know, in these types of cases, you know you really rely upon these nasty pictures that show this lousy work. You have vegetation growing out of the roof like it's a garden, things of that nature. I mean, you know, what can somebody say about that? That it's a lack of maintenance. Yeah, I put on a roof that's been last 10 years and it wasn't properly maintained. I mean, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 1So in the course of your career, how much of your work is representation? From the outset, somebody, a client, comes to you and says Steve, we want to do this project. Please negotiate and draft this contract versus cleanup. Oops, we did this ourselves. We signed a boilerplate contract. Can you help us out now? I imagine you do a fair amount of cleanup work or attempt to do some cleanup work.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean I've done a lot.
Speaker 2I mean I've done a lot of cleanup work and I've done a lot of work at the outset.
Speaker 2But you know, the important thing to remember is that there are a lot of deadly sins that exist with respect to construction, and you know those deadly sins are owners that don't take charge of what they're supposed to do and hiring the right people, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2Like I said at the outset, you have more control and you're able to guide the client through the whole process, which is very helpful to them. In the beginning there's a lot more work to do on that side, but then, after you get your work done, you get the contract signed. Sometimes you never hear from the client again, maybe at the end, when they're closing out the project. You maybe have a hiccup, or maybe at the end, when you see these deficiencies and no one is responding to them, or there are delays in the project and you want to be compensated for those delays. I think that you're more effective when you're with the project at the outset than any other time in the process. Lots of times we're asked to clean up a mess that somebody else created and that makes it very, very difficult.
Speaker 1So you give speeches, Steve, all over the country. Are there some geographic areas that are more prone to construction defect issues than others?
Speaker 2Well, you know you have to look where the growth is. You know there's a lot of growth in Florida. There's a lot of growth in Texas. There's growth in other areas, but you know their projects are unique, like, for example, in New York City. If you're going to build in New York City, you're going to be building right up against some other building that's existing and you probably had to tear down a building in order to get to some space where you can build another building.
Speaker 2So I think that you know Florida I think northern Florida is is a big attraction area right now to build because there is some open land, whereas in Broward County it's being really the land has all been eaten up already. Palm Beach County there's not a lot of places to build anymore. So people keep on gravitating north, northern Florida, northern Florida. But it doesn't mean that they're not building where they can in Miami and all over the place, because there's a big influx of people that are coming here from New York after COVID, coming from California now and moving out to Texas and Florida because of the advantageous tax issues that they have.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I see all the cranes in out of our office windows as well, and I think the density is probably a big issue. But I think it also gets back to your statements a while ago about the trades and the labor issues and the crunch and how stretched a lot of these contractors are in terms of finding qualified people.
Speaker 2Well, you know and there's another thing too is that we learned this in COVID People are renovating because the land is so expensive, they don't want to move, so they'd rather renovate, and so they're renovating a lot of their projects. We've seen a lot of country clubs, high-end country clubs in South Florida renovating I mean big time, $50 million projects because they have to keep current, they don't want to lose their members to the next club down the street that has already renovated and put in 20 new pickleball courts. So you see a lot of renovation work being done because land is so scarce. So people are tearing down, building up or taking their existing space and renovating. You're seeing that with office space too, because in the aftermath of COVID, a lot of people are not coming into the office. So some firms, some businesses that had a big footprint, they're reducing their footprint. So they're doing a lot of interior renovations to divide up the space more methodically because recognizing they don't need all the space they used to need before COVID.
Speaker 1You know, you just jogged my memory because I did want to mention, in your episode particularly that, construction defects. We're not just talking about new construction. We're not just talking about construction defects related to the products that the developer has delivered. We're talking about all these renovation projects as well, ongoing maintenance and repair projects. Everything we've talked about up until now, Steve, applies equally to all those contracts that boards are signing.
Speaker 2Absolutely. I mean, look, every week there are a host of roofing, concrete, restoration, windows, glazing, generators, hvac projects that are being done all the time and it's not letting up. People are. I would say that, based upon my years of experience doing this stuff, I haven't seen it this busy in a long time. People are really doing a lot of work and a lot of renovation work and they're spending the money because they're scared. If they don't spend the money and they don't upgrade and they don't keep the current according to code, they're going to get in trouble, and they don't want to have any trouble.
Speaker 1Yeah, get in trouble and they're also not going to stay marketable in their opinion. You know, there's always the new building on the block with all the new bells and whistles, so they do. They feel that they need to keep up with that.
Speaker 2Absolutely.
Speaker 1So I want to move on. You know you've amassed so many prestigious awards throughout your career. Actually, in our firm I think you've lapped most of us in terms of your awards Very well deserved. Were there certain milestones in your career that you think you know? You look back on and you think this was one of the milestones that contributed to those kind of honors and awards?
Speaker 2Well, I'll tell you something, Donna. Like anybody that ever went to law school, you know there's a certain sense of insecurity you have as a lawyer. So I went from undergraduate school. I took a year off before I went to law school and I worked as a drug counsel in the city jail down in Cleveland Ohio, where I went down there in the middle of the night and I interviewed people that were in jail that had a methadone habit, get them into a methadone clinic.
Speaker 2And once you do that and you see what you're exposed to, you're very thankful for your occupation in becoming a lawyer and you want to make the most of it.
Speaker 2And I think the thing is is that, you know, I've always enjoyed bettering myself, being educated, learning the law, becoming a construction lawyer, wrote a lot of articles you know, got published, met a lot of people along the way, enjoyed some you know professional organizations which really helped me become a better lawyer, including becoming board certified, which I think is a real positive thing for our profession in terms of building ethics and a code of professionalism and a code of competency that is unmatched anyplace else.
Speaker 2And I think that all those things you know led me just to be an ambassador to board certification, not only within the law firm but outside the law firm, because I think it made me a better lawyer, and I like to spread the word and give that opportunity to other people as well. So, is there one thing? No, there's not one thing, but it's been interesting. And I think what's been interesting is is that I've learned so much from so many very, very good and talented lawyers. Just like, you know, I learned a lot from Alan Becker when he when he was alive and he was running this firm, I worked a lot with him and I've worked at, you know, with a lot of other really really very highly skilled lawyers which took the time to mentor me, to tell me about the importance of giving back to the profession, about giving speeches, about writing and about, you know, construction law in general.
Speaker 1What do you enjoy most as the head of Becker's construction law practice?
Speaker 2Well, I'll tell you, I'm at a point now where you know I have very, very highly skilled people working with me. You know I have very, very highly skilled people working with me and I enjoy most sitting around a room talking to them about how to solve an issue with respect to a case and getting their perspective on things. But it's the fact that you know you play a small part in making somebody better in what you do in the board certification arena as well. I mean, I really enjoy lecturing now about professionalism, about ethics, about being a better lawyer. I think that that is very gratifying to me.
Speaker 2I also think that you know, at this stage of the game, you earn a lot of wisdom about construction law. You kind of know how things are going to work out in dispute. I think that has assisted me a lot in being a construction mediator and construction arbitrator. You kind of know how things are going to work out and maybe something that sounds really, really bad isn't so bad after all. But it certainly is interesting to see people make the same mistakes over and over and over again, and it's funny. Sometimes clients don't want to listen to the advice of the lawyer, and I'm at a point in my career where I can say well, if you don't like my advice, go get somebody else, and you're kind of happy for them to do that. But I think you can learn a lot from the lawyers you're working with.
Speaker 2And also, you can learn a lot from the clients. They challenge you a lot. So I think it's very enriching to continue to practice law at this level, interface with clients a lot of sophisticated clients, a lot of unsophisticated clients but to spread your wisdom, I think, is very, very gratifying.
Speaker 1I think if you stay in the game long enough and you've earned a good reputation and you really like what you do and you're there for your clients, I think the success comes and certainly the confidence comes right. I mean, you exude confidence. We're at stages in our careers now where we can sit with a client and the client's going to realize we know what we're saying and they're going to have a certain comfort level and a certain level of confidence in the advice we're doling out.
Speaker 2Well, the one thing I think I would say about that too is that you know I'm not shy about telling a client what I think of their case. If they don't like it, that's OK, I'm at peace with it. I may not have been like that 10 years ago, but today I am, and so I tell the client. You know exactly my honest assessment of it and I feel good about giving that advice because it's truly my advice. I'm not looking to get them to spend a lot of money. Whether my advice takes them down that road or whether or not they're done right now and they spend nothing, it doesn't really matter to me anymore. I'm just here to give them the advice and the benefit of my wisdom of many years, and I feel pretty good about that. I feel pretty good about that.
Speaker 1You should feel pretty good about that. So a young construction attorney comes to you and says Steve, how do I achieve similar success? What's your advice to him or her? And also, are there certain skills that you think are absolutely essential to being, you know, a successful construction attorney?
Speaker 2Well, I think that you have to have a certain level of curiosity. Number one, number two I think that you look, I never ask anybody to work harder than me, but I think you do have to work hard. You got to put the time in. There's no second guessing.
Speaker 2I would encourage people to write articles at the outset to show that you've got some expertise, because lots of times you don't really have the expertise when you're writing the article. But when you're done writing the article, doing the work, doing the research, and you put that article out there, you really, really know that area of the law. And then you can turn that into speaking about the law, lecturing other people about the law. I think that that gets you on a trajectory where you can make your own path. I would say get out from behind your desk and start doing a lot of those things.
Speaker 2Join trade organizations, join the ABA Forum on Construction Law, join the Florida Bar Construction Law Committee. I think all those things will add up and will give you a very good network and it will also bring you business along the way. You don't do it for the business, because that'll work out itself, but the fact of the matter is is that you will learn a lot from other lawyers that you interact with throughout the country and if you have a question about an area construction law that no one in your firm is familiar with, you will know about somebody to call who can give you some advice on that, and I think that's very, very beneficial.
Speaker 1So, speaking of curiosity this has been sort of a running theme on the podcast, steve but are you curious about the changes artificial intelligence will bring to the construction law industry in the coming years?
Speaker 2Yeah, I just don't know what they are. I mean, nobody really does. But you know, I can tell you that in a small part. You know you're asked to give a speech on some area of construction law and you're not that familiar with it and you go to your app and you dictate in and you get something spilled out at you and you're just like marveling at that. You know, I think that artificial intelligence is gonna be better for the industry because it's gonna help us build better. It's gonna help us detect problems a lot quicker. It's gonna be a problem solving. It's not gonna replace lawyers, but it's certainly gonna help in the problem solving issues.
Speaker 1So I gotta ask you, as we wrap up, what do you do to relax? What's your? What do you do to?
Speaker 2chill. Well, I'll tell you I I've been playing a lot of tennis, a lot of pickleball. You know I work out every single day. I have to, otherwise I'll just drive myself crazy. You know I do a lot of reading and you know I'm busy. You know, doing a lot of work for the Florida Bar and for the ABA, which I still really, really enjoy. You know I just got done doing a roundtable in Chicago with some leaders of bar associations throughout the country talking about adapting to change and recertification, certification of lawyers. I find that to be fascinating. I know a little something about that. So you know all these different activities in addition to my charitable activities. You know we are.
Speaker 2I, in addition to my charitable activities, you know we are I'm on the board of Building for Good, which is a not-for-profit 5013C organization that provides pro bono construction services to any not-for-profit organizations in the country. I've did the Gilders Club of South Florida, the cancer facility. Claire Margaret Gruber is doing the Black Bottom Church in Orlando. We have lawyers all over the country doing all that. So that's also extremely gratifying to be able to give back in a pro bono basis. And I'll tell you one other story, donna, that when I was doing this pro bono work for Gilda's Club, I did a contract for him for this big renovation and the director called me up and she said I want to tell you something. That was a beautiful contract. And I said to myself no one that has ever paid me to do a contract has ever praised my work as being beautiful.
Speaker 2So you know there is something to be gotten out of that pro bono area and I would encourage every lawyer to engage in some pro bono activity. I think it's very gratifying.
Managing Energy and Productivity in Business
Speaker 1You know, I don't think any of my contracts have ever been described as being beautiful contract, but that's, that is quite the compliment. I think you must sleep less than five hours a night. You don't have to answer that question, but someday I'll do a podcast episode on sleep and maybe I'll. Maybe I'll circle back to you, because your energy level is astounding and I don't know how you get it all done in a day. But, Steve, I want to thank you. I really want to thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 2Thank you, donna, appreciate you having me today.
Speaker 1Thanks very much. Thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to follow and rate us on your favorite podcast platform, or visit TakeItToTheBoardcom for more ways to connect.