Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger
Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger
Navigating the Stormy Landscape of Disaster Recovery and Insurance -- with Wayne Srsen and Kelly Kuhn
In the aftermath of Helene's wrath and Milton's threatening approach, this week’s episode of Take It To The Board, hosted by Donna DiMaggio Berger, takes us on the emotional journey of community association industry veterans Wayne Srsen and Kelly Kuhn as they share their firsthand experiences with natural disasters and the insurance industry. They also highlight the indispensable roles of first responders and logistics professionals, such as those at Florida Power and Light, who work tirelessly to restore normalcy.
The stormy landscape of Florida's insurance industry presents unique challenges. Donna, Wayne, and Kelly navigate the intricacies of working in this environment. From bureaucratic hurdles to the moral dilemmas faced by insurance adjusters, Wayne highlights why integrity and proactive preparation are crucial. They delve into the human side of disaster response, where community involvement can make all the difference. Kelly shares his insights on the importance of networking and how authentic connections can foster mutual support in the professional world, alongside discussing the distinctive strengths women bring to a sales environment.
As they journey through the hurdles of project management and board behavior, Donna, Wayne, and Kelly underscore the need for skilled professionals in construction endeavors, especially in older coastal communities. The significance of clear communication, effective leadership, and expert guidance cannot be overstated. The episode wraps with a heartfelt reflection on life's fleeting moments, inspired by personal philosophies and the tranquil solace of the beach. Join us as we celebrate resilience, integrity, and the power of community in overcoming life's challenges.
Conversation Highlights:
- Perception that insurance companies seek to deny or underpay legitimate claims accurate
- Preparing for catastrophic events
- The hallmarks of a great salesperson
- Board members or managers attempting to serve as the Owners’ Representative on large restoration projects
- Preventing cost overruns on a project
- Incidental damage to a unit during a construction project
- Predictions for the community association industry
Related Links:
Hi everyone. I'm attorney Donna DiMaggio-Berger, and this is Take it to the Board where we speak condo and HOA. Today I'm thrilled to be joined by two industry veterans who have spent years navigating the complex world of community associations. With their extensive experience, they've likely seen it all every challenge, every triumph and everything in between. Get ready for a deep dive into the stories, insights and lessons they've gathered along the way.
Speaker 1:Wayne Searson has been with American Building Contractors for 23 years. Prior to that, he was an insurance adjuster for a major insurance company for 10 years and has worked on so many weather-related disasters he's lost count. After living in the Midwest for his entire life, he has relocated to New Smyrna Beach where he currently resides. Now, kelly Kuhn has spent a lifetime in sales, business development and marketing. He's currently the co-founder and partner of premier owners representative project management firm LaGreca Consultants LGC, primarily serving South Florida. Kelly is involved with several nonprofits in South Florida and, with 55 years of playing recreational golf, he tells me he's still a below average player.
Speaker 1:He may want to listen to a podcast episode we just taped with Eric Larson. He's a world-renowned golf course designer. That's coming out before this episode so I'm hoping maybe he tunes in. Maybe Eric has some tips for him. Kelly is also the Kelly in the Industry Focus podcast, wayne's World, and Kelly, obviously, wayne Searson is the Wayne in Wayne's World. So my guests today appear on LinkedIn, facebook and YouTube every Wednesday for the last 105 weeks of their podcast. It'll be more by the time this episode comes out.
Speaker 1:And I have to say I was honored to be a guest on that podcast twice. So with that, guys, welcome to Take it to the Board.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Donna Great to be here Great to be here yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm excited to have you guys here and I've never had a fellow podcaster. You know what? That's not true. I have Marcia Narine Weldon. Professor Weldon also has a podcast, you're my second podcasters on this pod Honored. Thank you, Wayne. You're a fellow Midwesterner like me. Where are you from?
Speaker 2:Grew up in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, and went to college at Minnesota State University, Mankato, which is a smaller southern located university part of the Minnesota State University school system, and so I was there until my wife and I moved to New Smyrna Beach about two years ago.
Speaker 1:I'm hearing the accent.
Speaker 2:Right you can never get rid of. Was there until my wife and I moved to New Smyrna.
Speaker 1:Beach about two years ago. I'm hearing the accent Right. You can never get rid of it, Although I don't have. I'm from Chicago.
Speaker 2:I don't have an accent, do I no? No, actually you do not. I would have never guessed that at all. You, you don't you could be.
Speaker 1:you could be an anchor woman, right? Because that's what they look for. Is no accent? No, exactly, Just in nondescript accent. So I want to start with you, Wayne. So you worked as a contractor and an insurance adjuster for years. You've dealt with natural disasters. What has that history taught you about human resilience?
Speaker 2:Well, I'll tell you what I mean as a first responder for Hurricane Ian. First of all, under a quote, unquote. You know, I guess I wasn't there immediately because it took me two days to get out of my community in New Smyrna Beach and then to navigate all the way to Ground Zero. You know, in the Punta Gorda area of Fort Myers. I got to tell you, don, I've never seen anything like it. You see pictures, you know.
Speaker 2:You see stuff on the news, but when you are there and you are supposed to inspect a building that isn't there anymore, when you see people walking aimlessly, when you see the only people out there that are working and shoveling crap up so you can get back in there very emotional, I'd like everybody that hears this podcast to give a little bit of more respect for some of these folks that are putting this stuff back together to really even get in there. Human resilience everybody keeps moving on, but the process has taken so long. Now there's people still to this day that haven't been able to get back in because of the insurance industry and how gummed up I want to make sure I don't say any other phrase, but gummed up part of what we're looking at. People are very resilient, so I mean it's all good on that.
Speaker 1:You know, I just recently taped an episode with Dr Jesse Sparrow on CERTs the Community Emergency Response Teams and we talked about that the type of people like yourself who are the first ones to get there and help people. I think it takes a special type of person who's willing to rush into the burning building or go into the communities that have been devastated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, I want to make sure that you all understand that. You know I am obviously not in that category. Okay, you know I'm there to look at properties, to inspect them and to drone them, but I see what happens. There's a climate of fear that you can feel. You can taste the seawater levels that rose so dramatically. You see cars where they're not supposed to be. You see everything destroyed. It literally is like zombie apocalypse. So to me, some of the biggest heroes by far were Florida Power and Light. I remember being on the road trying to get over to where I needed to be and you see these massive convoys of FPL trucks coming over the horizon and you're just like, yeah, because you know what. If there's one thing America can do right, we can do logistics right. Okay, got a lot of problems going on right now, but you know what? Logistics isn't one of them. And the heroes that I saw were FPL and the workers that were removing all the debris to get things in motion.
Speaker 1:Were you an independent public adjuster, Wayne, or working for an insurance company?
Speaker 2:I worked for a major insurance company. That is correct. I was never an IA, no, I was staff.
Speaker 1:So post-casualty were people real happy to see you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. They were very happy to see me because they knew that I was part of the solution.
Speaker 1:Okay, then you'd get the ball rolling for them to recover.
Speaker 2:Get the ball rolling for them for recovery and I know we can kind of touch on this as we keep going along One of the major things I found is that that recovery process has taken a lot more time than it used to. I mean, we are in a really bad situation now.
Speaker 1:Now, why is that? Is that because there's just casualty after casualty? We don't seem to have as much breathing room between disasters these days.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say that's a big part of it. You look at the wildfires out west. You look at Tornado Alley in the Midwest. You look at everything that's been going on with the hurricanes down in Florida. You remember Superstorm Sandy that went all the way up the eastern seaboard, right? So nobody's getting a pause. The insurance companies make their money on reinvestments of premiums. Okay, they're not getting that return on. With the stock market being so volatile, reinsurers have been hammered by trying to pick up the cost. You've got citizens in the state of Florida. The biggest thing that we have found out I just said I found out in my career since day one has been what we call the three Ds that the insurance companies practice delay, deny, defend. You take all of those together, you throw in what we're in right now with any major disaster and that's what we're getting Delay, deny, defend, 3ds and we all know them.
Speaker 1:So the IAs, the independent adjusters, like to paint you guys, the adjusters for the insurance companies, as the bad guys. There's a perception out there just what you said that insurance companies are not making it easier. You know, all these associations have paid for their coverage and then, when it comes time to actually make a claim, it's not so easy. Is that an accurate perception, wayne?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's very accurate. I think that it started out kind of early on in my career was with what upper underwriting standards that the insurance companies were lazy on? Ok, prior to drone technology and everything, they were kind of throwing numbers up on valuations of the buildings that could have been older or whatever. That was kind of the beginning of when we knew that there were some problems because of the lax underwriting standards. Okay, and so I've been asked that throughout my career is hey, were you ever under any orders from the insurance company not to give a fair settlement? Well, the answer to that is no, not under my tenure.
Speaker 2:However, things really really really became clear and apparent actually with that expose that the Washington Post published, maybe about six months after Ian, where Heritage was caught in fraudulent claims. Where Heritage was caught in fraudulent claims and I sent you the link and I highly encourage you to post that okay, because that ripped open everything that we kind of knew, kind of suspected, but yet you know there was an adjuster that was a whistleblower for this. Okay, I encourage everybody to find this, if Donna doesn't put the link on just Google Washington Post Hurricane Ian Fraud.
Speaker 2:We'll put it in the show notes, yeah oh yeah, you're gonna see that claims were due 80, where the folks at Heritage actually re rejiggered the estimates. Okay, they fraudulently did that and and this was a landmark, landmark, expose. Now everybody, now everybody knows, ok, there's no, there's no, there's no backing away from what we all know now. Ok, because now, now it's real.
Speaker 1:We find this in a number of different industries. Wayne, if you don't self-regulate, then government comes in and regulates you, Right? So in the aftermath of that expose, the Washington Post expose did the insurance industry take any steps to self-regulate?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, it's all word salad, right. I mean we're looking into it. You know the state of Florida is doing an investigation. Look, one thing that's kind of baffling to me with what I've noticed since I've been working hurricanes here in Florida since 2002 and on, you know, like with all the alphabet, Eugene, William, Francis, all that stuff that raked Florida. I worked them all OK and Florida doesn't seem to be that consumer friendly of a state. Because I know that in other markets I work in, particularly in Minnesota, is if you get a complaint filed against you as an adjuster and it goes right away to the Department of Commerce, the Department of Commerce opens up a file, OK, and you need to answer that. The branch claims manager needs to officially answer that within a very short period of time. So he or she is coming to you for answers right away. Not really sure why. That doesn't really seem to be that prevalent in Florida. I don't really see it and I don't understand.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe we get you up to Tallahassee to testify next session. Talk a little bit about what they think they're doing with insurance reforms.
Speaker 2:I mean all of the homeowners here. I mean we live here, this is our home, it's my home now and you know I'm like everybody else, man, I'm dreading what's coming. Okay, I really am. You got Beryl, you got Debbie, you know the engine's getting all revved up and ready to go. We all know it and for the first time in my career, I'll be honest with you. You know I'm really not that excited about it, because I know what everybody's going to face. Ian was probably the worst that I faced, and that even includes Katrina, because Ian blew a hole right through when it made ground zero in Punta Gorda and went literally like 500 miles and landed right on my doorstep in New Smyrna Beach.
Speaker 1:Do you think people are getting fatigued with again? The storms are coming more frequently. They're getting stronger, it seems. Do you think people are becoming fatigued, or are they still pretty proactive when it comes to storm prep?
Speaker 2:They're not proactive at all like I want to see them. I know that when I give my CE credit and I evangelize into the management companies, I go into about the importance of a priority service agreement with anybody. Get on a list. Okay, I don't care if it's my list, but you got to get on one, because the people that win are the ones that sign a PSA and they get on a list and they get taken care of faster than anybody that's not on a PSA.
Speaker 2:This is the first year in 20 some years that I've seen that there seems to be more of a sense of dread or a sense of urgency. But they kind of play the averages, right. I mean, there's really nowhere to hide. Like I said, wildfires, west, tornado alley, midwest hurricanes here, east down, everywhere. If you think about it statistically speaking, your chances of being involved in a natural disaster and being affected by it they're not really that great. Ok, weather is sensationalized. It's something we all talk about. Ok, a lot of us make our living on it, right? But yet people are willing to roll the dice because you know what, donna, life's pretty short and I'm not going to really worry about something that I have no idea if it's going to affect me, that's very true and I think not going to really worry about something that I have no idea if it's going to affect me, but it's out there, that's very true and I think it's starting to have a potential impact on tourism.
Speaker 1:You know, florida is our economy primarily based on tourism, and now we've got a six-month hurricane season and I've heard people saying I don't know if we should I don't know who's, by the way, I don't know who's vacationing here in August and July. Well, that's all season.
Speaker 3:Anyway, donna, I'm going to jump in for a second because that's what I always have to do. I think I didn't put a lot of stuff in my bio. I just tricked you up because I wrote a bunch of goofy things. I was wondering what you would say. I was a hurricane chaser and I was in the water damage restoration business for a number of years, and so I was down in New Orleans, I was down in Nashville, and so two things First of all, wayne's a rookie at being. It's a different perspective when you live here versus when you live up north, so you look at it different. But when I went to Nashville exactly what Wayne said I liked it. Things need to be human, and I think one of the things that all three of us are, is we're?
Speaker 3:very human. We're not robotic. We're very involved with our communities. When we pulled into Nashville and I saw the devastation, I worked on commercial buildings when I was in the restoration business. So when I saw all these homes and we're driving through and you see, like a little kid, stuffed animal, on a nine foot pile of stuff, I was physically ill. And then we actually found a church. I was working with A1 Flood Tech my friends up in DC, so they're my family and we found a church that had no money and no insurance and we arrived too late to Nashville so we had no customer. So we did it for free and we took and we did their building. It was an amazing experience for everybody. And then a couple of weeks later we got a flood in Baltimore. That was somewhere around $800,000 in revenue, so it kind of worked out pretty well for us. We paid it forward and it got paid forward back to us.
Speaker 3:But at the end of the day, everything we do whether it's a legal issue, an insurance issue, a restoration issue these are all people and we have to remember that. Because I'll tell you one thing that's problem in Florida is Florida is really bad. I know really good people that will call me and want to do things that aren't correct, and I go. I want to be any part of it. A lot of times it's our house has nothing to do with my business. But they're like can you tell me how I can make this claim to where they're going to replace my kitchen, even though I have a leak in my backyard? So the problem goes everywhere. It's the public adjusters, it's the insurance companies, it's the claimers, everybody.
Speaker 1:Well, that example you just used, Kelly, is what the legislature relied upon to say, hey, we need tort reform because there's a lot of fraud in these claims, which there was, Remember I talked about. If you don't regulate yourself, it becomes a problem. And when I talk about that, that's the legal industry, that's the public adjusting industry, you name it, banking, you name it. But that was the example that they relied upon. But that was only one of the problems that has led to exorbitant premiums in the state of Florida and elsewhere too.
Speaker 1:I mean, frankly, it is our geographic vulnerability. You know, regardless of claims, there are plenty of. Frankly, it is that it is our geographic vulnerability. You know, regardless of claims, there are plenty of people that plenty of legitimate claims that were also underpaid or denied and the people just sort of, the associations just sort of went away and they shouldered the economic burden themselves rather than fighting back with a bad faith claim. But, Kelly, I'm glad you jumped in, because I was really excited to have you on the podcast, because you have told me you can sell just about anything to anyone and we all provide services, OK, people accuse me of that.
Speaker 3:I don't, I don't say that. I think that was. I think that was self-reported Kelly, but OK. I was just repeating the claim.
Speaker 1:That being said, all of us do work in this industry for a long time, but people have to know about us, so we still have to sell to a certain extent. So, in your opinion, what do you think are the hallmarks of a great salesman or saleswoman?
Speaker 3:Right A salesperson, let's just know Salesperson. Yes, Well, I'll tell you what. First of all, women. I've always understood that women were better salespeople than men.
Speaker 1:And I'll tell you why, really?
Speaker 3:Oh, women were better salespeople than men and I'll tell you yep, oh yeah, I agree with kelly yep, and I don't say that, I'm not kissing up to anybody, you know and I don't know I could that, but women have a nurturing one.
Speaker 1:They're.
Speaker 3:They're the moms of the world, so mom's not going to rip me off. Dad, you know I've seen him golf he's, he's using that foot wedge and everything else yeah, the foot wedge yeah.
Speaker 3:So there's honestly you have to. I, I have a salesman's personality. I got it, so does wayne, so do you, um, even though you're you're selling law, but you are and sometimes you got to overcome that. So, because a lot of people just think automatically kelly's a salesman now with our company, lgc um, as an owner's rep, I'm most anti-sale because I'm always starting from the very beginning. I'm telling all the bad things that will happen and then how we're going to handle it.
Speaker 3:But I think the secret to any successful salesperson is sell something. That's great. I never was that good, but I always sell the right products or service or people. And now I basically I sell people. I sell the team at LGC, which they're handpicked by George James and I, and they're all great and I'm not bragging, it's just a fact. But if you, I can't sell a crappy. You know a salesman can sell to anybody, like the old ice to the Eskimo. First of all, I wouldn't even do it. An Eskimo doesn't need to buy ice from me. But I don't want anybody ever to buy anything that they don't want or need, and I think that's the key to all of it. But once again, the women are so much better at this than we are.
Speaker 1:Selling is a science and an art, would we all agree. But to your point, you have to be authentic. So, yeah, there are people there's actually law firms that hire business development people, but if you're not in the trenches, you don't know the product, you don't know the service. I think it's a harder sales job. You know, let's talk about that. We've got a lot of different philosophies in the association industry. Does going to a cocktail party help? Does going to a trade show help?
Speaker 1:In my opinion, it's really about being a problem solver, and this may be different, but I think we're all solving problems, right? You're working on construction, wayne is too, and he's helping with insurance claims. We're solving our customers' and clients' problems. So, to me, the best and I don't even know if it's sales, but it's really getting in there with a potential client and working and letting them see what it would be like to work with you if they actually hired you. And I know there's a lot of different philosophies about this, but I think the bottom line is you need to be authentic. You need to have experienced what you're telling your potential customer or client they need to do.
Speaker 2:Everything that you said is correct. Client, they need to do Everything that you said is correct. Just briefly, back to Kelly's point about who's a better sales rep a man or a woman. 100% agree with Kelly it's women, for the reasons he stated. Now there's one thing that you missed regarding the first two, I think qualifications that are necessary for a successful salesperson, or what it encompasses.
Speaker 2:Kelly and I talk about this all the time. What we do is performance based okay, Meaning, when you saw me at the Castle Group's trade show yesterday, I was performing. Okay. You right now are performing okay. When Kelly and I are doing our podcast, we are performing. So people might be thinking, oh so what are you doing is fake? No, it's not. When we go to that conference, we have to be on. When we're talking to our clients, we have to be on. What does that mean? Asking them questions and listening. When I get done with all of that and I go back to my hotel room or come home, I'm very, very tired. So I believe the authentic part, along with Kelly's comment about working for a world-class, national-class company that you believe in, you know very important in being your true, authentic Okay. I think those things make up a great sales representative in their skills that everybody can learn Okay.
Speaker 3:You talked about nice shoes too.
Speaker 1:Nice shoes. Okay, I got that covered. I had him on for the 50th episode and I said what are two? What's something people wouldn't guess about me? He said you're a great cook and you're like Imelda Marcos with your shoes. I'm like, well, I think people probably would have guessed the shoes thing, maybe not the cookie. I want to circle back to what Wayne said tired after performance. So I've done the same thing webinars, seminars, classes. We do board member boot camp. I've done keynote speeches. You're right, it's draining afterwards, is that? Because I've often wondered are we really introverts and we're drained after we're out there? Because I think a complete extrovert would be charged up after a performance. What do you think?
Speaker 3:To be engaged with people would be charged up after a performance. What do you think To be engaged with people and I love what Wayne said we're all three professional talkers and I think we're all three good listeners you have to really listen and process what people are saying and then be quick. To me, that takes a lot of energy out of me. People don't realize how much it takes out of you when I do presentations. It's exhausting and I've always thought it was interesting when certain owners that I've worked for in the past before I was an actual owner and I've kind of gotten into that is they expect you to just keep on rocking after you've done a presentation and you're keyed up in the right way, and the whole idea is for people not to realize that you're keyed up, but it's exhausting.
Speaker 3:But another thing you mentioned was about networking and how important is that. I did it. I started a dinner here about five years ago in South Florida and I had an invitation of only 20 people. Everybody paid for their own meal because I'm very much into nobody buying anybody's attention and we got usually 15 to 20 people that would show up every month and everybody was engaged and the whole idea was you earned your way in and then you earned your way to stay and some people were not invited back at a certain point because they were questionable on how they did things. So I thought we were a really good Brommer.
Speaker 3:So that group, even though I disbanded it I don't know, maybe over a year ago because it just it was just too much and I was hoping somebody would take over and he didn't. But all of us and we had probably 40, 50 people run through that group over that time and we're all super connected and the big thing is you help people. You know I know a guy, I know a gal. You know I want to get in trouble with that one, but if I know so many people and people call me up and I don't care if I'm going to make a dime off it or not.
Speaker 3:I love connecting people Right and that's extremely important. So our happy hour is important very well, but if you don't drink at them or if you do, you moderate or you can make yourself a laughing stock of the community, you know, and also you keep it professional and friendly. But I think networking is unbelievably important. Love trade shows if you do it correctly. If you sit away and just wait for people to like throw buckets of money on you, it's not going to work. If you try to sit there and tell them everything about your business, it's not going to work. All you're doing is building that quick connection.
Speaker 1:Well, you also have during the trade shows. You also have a line of people and if you're spending 40 minutes talking, to one person.
Speaker 1:I've seen it happen. The other people just wander off because they can't wait that long. So you're right, you have to make a quick connection. I did want to say you know what it's also tiring is. We all prepare, you know. You don't just go to do a webinar or a class or a presentation. You know on the fly. There's thought the best presentations are the ones where the presenters have clearly prepared, they know their material, they've given thought to who's in the audience. That all takes time and effort.
Speaker 3:Well, I think Wayne has a twist on that, which I would agree. Let me say for Wayne, if you know your subject matter, the preparation's been for me 61 years.
Speaker 1:So on that one. Now, if you's doing something more defined you wait wait, wait, 61.
Speaker 3:Were you doing this in utero? I was. My mom said I came out talking.
Speaker 1:Wait, wait, and that's true. You told me you're the.
Speaker 3:You're the youngest of nine children right right she just kept going until you said she got it right my mom said she was trying to reach perfection and she said she did, and my father said they were afraid what they're going to have next. So it's all perspective.
Speaker 1:Look, I'm one of four and I thought I came from a big family, but one of nine, that's. That's just absolutely crazy. Well, and one last thing on the on the women are better. Listen, I could hear that all day, so you know you can keep up with that. But I used to be a lobbyist and I will tell you, going to Tallahassee, it was an advantage, I could get into meetings and it wasn't a problem. But you need to know yourself.
Speaker 1:OK gender is not going to get you anywhere if you don't know your stuff.
Speaker 3:Women still always have to prove themselves, probably a little bit more than men, but I think it's easy for them because y'all are truly better. But you know five sisters that were awesome. Three brothers, mom awesome, and so that was awesome too. But honest to God, I get so annoyed when people try to do a gender thing At our company. You would think that we were doing it on purpose, because I think we're close to 50-50, male and female, and they're all great. But we're very selective on who they are and who we bring in. I don't care what they are, as long as they're just great people, honest people and have a desire to bring something to the table and keep it there.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about your company. Let's talk about what you do. You do project management. All of these communities right now, particularly the older coastal ones, are all frenetically undertaking long delayed and deferred maintenance and repair projects. So what do you think about board members and managers who try to do what your company does, which is serve as project manager on these large projects?
Speaker 3:So we're a project manager, owner's rep. And the owner's rep we always say is critical thinking and that's a huge aspect. A lot of people can project, manage and get you through some steps and usually they're not leading, they're following, but they're getting everything done. So I do like to make that distinction. A community association manager, a CAM, manages the association. They don't know construction. And then I love it when you've got people that are from other parts of the country that think they can actually be an owner's rep because they actually replaced their sink in their trailer, you know, 30 years ago.
Speaker 3:Plus, there's a liability, a board should govern, and some of our best clients are engineers, architects, attorneys, developers. They understand it and they're first to say we have to get an owner's rep. So I think they're the best examples. It's the ones that think they know so much I worry about. And also, when it comes to a cam, some of them are afraid they're going to lose their job if they don't do it. Some of them think you just put three bids out and take the lowest price and that's the right one, and they don't know what they're asking for. So it's sort of like if you asked us to come in there and manage via CAM. You know our guys, our team's brilliant, but I don't think they'd bode well doing that.
Speaker 1:But you know, a lot of the management contracts do require the boards to hire the manager to serve as project manager on the construction.
Speaker 3:We normally see that a lot more. I don't see it on our level, but we're doing 5 million to $40 million projects.
Speaker 1:I mean I see it as standard in some of the boilerplate contracts that says if there's a large construction or repair maintenance project, x percentage goes to the management company to handle the project management. I normally take that out and say, if we want you, we'll let you know. But listen, you need to it's in my opinion you need a safety net. So you need the board needs to rely on various professionals to create those safety nets when they are undertaking large projects and project management owner's rep. You know, undertaking large projects and project management owner's rep. That's one where when I hear that you know Jerry, the retired contractor on the board, is going to be the owner's rep, it gives me some pause.
Speaker 3:Right. It turns out he's a drywall contractor. You know, my number one way of getting business is executives from all the different project management companies saying, hey, we want you to come in and bid on this project. So I'm disappointed that that's happening on these contracts and I love that you just exit out, because that makes no sense. I can see where some companies want to derive that extra revenue, but what they're doing is they're setting themselves up for a disaster.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I don. I don't think the cam should be overseeing the construction, but there is additional burden on the cams in terms of scheduling, especially for large projects. For that I think you can bake in some flexible pricing that would. That would address that additional burden on the cam.
Speaker 3:There's some demands. But all that coordination, everything should be handled by the good owner's rep firm. They should not be leaning on them. The cam's already overworked. I don't know very many cams that are good, that are winging it. They're like oh, I can come in here and do this in 20 hours a week and I charge them for it. Their demands are usually pretty high. So to ask them to do it, we do our best to have a great relationship with them, keep them in the know, but keep the extra work down to a minimum for them. And if there is extra work and there's a payment to the company for that, I wouldn't disagree with that, because there's definitely. Whenever a project like that's going on, they're getting knocks on the door a lot.
Speaker 1:So the one thing that everyone's going to want me to ask you, as project manager or owner's rep, is what can you do to prevent cost overruns on the project?
Speaker 3:Well, the biggest thing is scope definition. You have to design it completely and have everything out there. We do when we're doing contracts with all the participants, we always do above and below the line. We know this is going to happen on this project. We don't know this is going to happen and also set up contingencies that are realistic. But on a concrete restoration, which a lot of the work is, you don't know what it's going to cost until it's done, and that's just reality.
Speaker 1:Because it's a per unit based contract.
Speaker 3:Right, exactly, and so you want to make sure you set up the numbers correctly and we're really good at defining that. A lot of times the board will say, well, we're going to give the engineers, we're going to allow them to look at 3% of the building and then we're going to have them come up with what they want. And we're like man, you know, let's hit this building hard. The more preparation on any project is going to give a better outcome as well. Let's you know you slow up to go fast and a lot of people they want to just hit the ground running because they're already behind the eight ball of trying to get things done. Everything's in the planning and in the pre-construction and that will make the construction go well.
Speaker 3:And having somebody that's doing if you hire a company that's got two or three projects going on at any time, they don't see enough. That's out there going on With us and other companies of our size, we're doing 10, 15 projects at a time. We really understand the pulse of what's going on in the industry and I think that's extremely valuable. You'll never get that out of your. I don't care how good your cam is, they're never going to have the knowledge that a good company is going to know about what's going on in the industry.
Speaker 1:Well, you know my partner, Steve Lesser, who heads up our construction law department.
Speaker 3:I was just going to mention that I was going to say and it's so important to get a construction attorney and Steve Lesser I'm sure enough people have heard me say it Steve is incredible, you know, and there's a lot of good attorneys out there, but he is the man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's the titan in the industry, for sure, he really is.
Speaker 3:He is and a lot of people that have worked with him in the past. What a great education they have by working with him. If you don't give us all the mechanisms to go after the contractor or whoever, or the architect, the engineer, if we don't have all the teeth in that contract, then we've got nothing. And a cam attorney isn't that association attorney is not equipped as well. A smart one's going to say let's turn it over to our construction.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what I do.
Speaker 3:Or go outside of our company and do it. So there's a lot of good associations. Go straight to.
Speaker 1:Steve, if it comes to me. So that's what, that's what I do. And he and listen. We just taped Steve. I'm going to put a link to his episode in the show notes, but he talked at length about companies like yours, using owner's rep and project management. So, wayne, you've been quiet for a while. I want to ask you, because we've never seen so many angry people in these community associations. I mean, there's always been. Listen, you're not going to make everybody happy, but given the economic challenges, given the changes in the law, there's been a trend towards increased incivility for years now. What, what? I know you don't have a crystal ball, but do you have any predictions? You know, sometimes my grandmother used to say the pendulum swings very far in one direction and then it always swings back. Well, are we going to get out of this mess anytime soon?
Speaker 2:No, and I'll tell you why. When, when, when we were oh boy OK, can you soften it.
Speaker 1:Boy, my God.
Speaker 2:Right, so it's. It's certainly been on a downward trend for so long. I think the worst I've ever seen it was when when we were interviewing for a lot, for a lot of projects with the boards for Hurricane Ian related projects and I'm on a board myself, so I mean I understand what the obligations and the duties are. Right, it's always been certainly an eye opener to be able to be on a board. Okay, ok, and one thing I found out is that the skills that people accumulate when they're, when when they're out in sector, most of the board folks are retired, they get on the board and, man, they just can't wait to you know, to tell you their skill set and everything they did and how, how they believe that the skills are transferable.
Speaker 2:From what I did, you know, in private industry and now I can handle it because, oh, I'm just on a board here the arrogance, the dismissive attitudes towards contractors and folks that are just wanting an opportunity, you know, to put the community back together again, like knowing more than I do when maybe they were a suit, you know, at General Motors or Pillsbury or something, and I just sit there and I'm just looking at these people saying we're going to help you. Okay, and this is a Q&A going back and forth right, I want to put your community back together again. So tell you that maybe it did peak. As far as bad behavior and how we were treated during Hurricane Ian, I'm not so sure.
Speaker 1:Did you feel like the hired help when you were being there?
Speaker 2:It was just flat out A lot of it just being just disrespected, not listening to our answers on questions. When we go into a board meeting, man, we are prepared Again. I've seen all this for 23 years. Right, there's not one disaster I have been through, but the decline of the civility, of the behavior for everybody, I think is just emblematic of what's going on in the country. So maybe board behavior will improve when we all improve. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Oh God, from from? Yeah, hopefully I hear you what you're saying because I see it in board meetings. There is in some communities, especially on the board there can be a level of either defensiveness or, as you said, arrogance. It happens and it's very difficult when you've got that personality type on the board. I also find that sometimes the person who's taking the lead on communications with vendors is the least well-suited to that task not a good communicator.
Speaker 2:I definitely agree with you, look, I mean we can all give the analogies. Kelly gave one early about not understanding what it would be like to be a cam, so why would he insert himself into being a cam role, right? So a lot of the behavior that we have found is when we give a professional answer about how we're going to put this community back together again, and then it's like it's either doubted or that's not. What the person said before you came in was like, and then when we articulate and try and figure out what the message is, you know how to talk about it. It's like the attitude of we know more than you, which is very disturbing to me. When you're talking about 20, 30, $40 million concrete tile rehabs, really you know more than me.
Speaker 1:I do caution boards not to play engineer, not to play architect, not to play lawyer, not to play CPA. I will tell you, as attorneys, wayne, we probably get a little more deference when we're dispensing advice to clients. But I'm going to tell you I've had a client well, it's a former client actually that I told them the law and the response was we don't believe that. I was like you know what it's the law, so it's was we don't believe that. I was like you know what it's the law. So it's not really a question of interpretation, it is the law. But we got that pushback too, and I'd never had a client say that before, and even when they read the law they were provided still could not understand and really push back. So I hope you're right.
Speaker 1:I hope we've peaked, but I don't know if we have.
Speaker 3:Don. I had that quite recently where it was a restoration project required by all to do it. But it was great for me because and this guy was I don't want to describe him too well because he's a client right now but so he had a very high power. He was CEO of several companies and this guy was the man and he says I don't believe that to be true. I said great, contact your attorney, don't take my word for it.
Speaker 1:So it's did the attorney back you up, Kelly?
Speaker 3:Oh, 100 percent, and part of it was I, and it happens more often than not with us, with our side of the business is where I remember one time a project we've been doing now for quite a while James Logreco. For anybody who doesn't know him, he's one of the most brilliant people I've ever known and that's why I was a smart guy to become a partner with him. So James was talking to the client and the client's being nice to me and I know this much and James knows you can't see my arms because we're not video. James is like so knowledgeable.
Speaker 1:Our arms are widespread. He's describing James' knowledge.
Speaker 3:It's a quarter of an inch of knowledge of what we do, but I don't need to know that the rest of my team does, and James is brilliant. So this guy who, once again, I want to say what he does for a living, but I can't. But let's just say this guy had one of the most incredible, fascinating jobs on the planet. And the guy was brilliant and he was being super nice to me and he's beating the crap out of James and I'm sitting there like going holy smokes. This guy's just not being nice. And after about an hour he just kind of looked back and he says James, I apologize, I was kind of being kind of rude, but I was just testing you. And he goes you're amazing.
Speaker 3:I'm like, wow, my God, I didn't know. I thought it was going to be. I'm like I don't know if we're just going to walk out or what's going to happen. But the guy was brutal. And I think a lot of times people are just testing us. So on our side to Wayne's saying you know, hey, you know. We've been doing his business for decades, he knows it. But people want. People want to know how much he knows before they want to trust us when we're done.
Speaker 1:I'm going to find a TikTok video I saw on that very thing where it was an interview and the guy kept getting tested like that and it was just a brutal interview and he kept saying no, you passed, You're fired. I'll send it to you afterwards, Can imagine going I don't want to work for you. You were mean. I don't know, it does seem to be some gang worship.
Speaker 3:That's when you have two testosterone filled guys. If there had been a woman there, you know it would have probably got a lot better.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know, maybe we tested. I don't know, I don't know. So, guys, what inspired you to start your podcast Wayne's World with Kelly?
Speaker 2:Well, actually I started it by myself when I lived up in Minnesota. Kind of a little bit of an influencer, inner Chuck Gary B See him a lot on LinkedIn. He gave his high school party theory where he just said there's different forms of, you know, seniority type folks in high school. You know, you got the jocks, you got the cheerleaders, and then you have the third leg, which is the person that provides, is the host for the party for people that want to have a couple drinks or engage in teenage behavior. They always need a place where they can have a party. So that's where the third person comes into play and I'm like how in the hell, what does this have to do with a podcast? And I'm like, how in the hell, what does this have to do with a podcast? So if we are providing a forum and a venue for people that are important in the industry, that we want to meet and we want to provide a forum for them to get their message out, we're going to do a podcast. I did that by myself.
Speaker 2:Then, when Florida opened up during COVID, I went down and started doing some trade shows and I saw this six foot eight engaging man named Kelly Kuhn and just went up to him and introduced myself. Kelly and I became fast friends and then he actually had the really good idea of saying, you know, because I actually had him on the podcast and he said hey, dude, what if we do this? What if we do it together in video format? And so that's where we are today. So really, I started it, but yet it was Kelly's impetus to get us to where we're at right now and provide the benefits for people like you, even though you do have your own form. You are, you don't need anything from us, but we just like you. That's why we like you on our podcast.
Speaker 1:I like you too, but do you realize, wayne, that Kelly sold you at that meeting?
Speaker 3:Actually, that's not exactly how I remember it. What happened was we did the podcast on his audio podcast and it was really clunky how he had to do it to record and everything and when he finished we both had to hang up and then it recorded and then he calls me back immediately and he goes dude, that was awesome. Let's do this together all the time. That's how it happened. But then a lot of conversation happened between us talking about it and doing it. But we said we want to educate, inspire and entertain. Our guests are our guests. We're not the stars of our show and and we have, we've, we've done so many podcasts. We've had some amazing people and the one I thought was a dud, he didn't think, and one that he thought was a dud I didn't think. So I think we've had like an amazing run with incredible guests.
Speaker 1:How do you decide who you want to invite to come on your show?
Speaker 3:Let's see how, the how, the what is, what is it how the sausage is made? So one of the agreements that Wayne and I have is we both have veto power and if we don't both agree, the person doesn't come on the show.
Speaker 1:But. And there's.
Speaker 3:You know, it's amazing how many people would like to do it and I get it, but we're not an infomercial Right you?
Speaker 1:know we want to educate, inspire and entertain. You're not a commercial. You want people on and you want to engage in a meaningful dialogue. Sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we had a guy that was the chief operating officer of Roto-Rooter who was also on Undercover Boss, and it was the number one episode they ever had in the 10, 15 years that they did the show and I met the guy.
Speaker 3:And then I wasn't even thinking because we were talking business and then the next thing we got off the phone. I called him back up. I go, I want you on the show and he came on and he was absolutely phenomenal. I mean we are so fortunate in South Florida to run into the most amazing people. We had Derek Holland, who played 14, 15 years as a Major League Baseball pitcher, 10 years as a starter, playing two World Series. I met him on the golf course down here at a dump golf course. I was embarrassed that he was playing there and that I was playing there and we became fast friends and he's been on the show a few times.
Speaker 3:Phenomenal guest Will Dogato, who is with Vassal, was in the military and then he got into construction and then he got into property management. What a story. I mean there's so many people out there with great stories and I think when we had him on the show we talked for two minutes about property management and the rest was about that and his wife and his daughter management and the rest was about that and his wife and his daughter.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's so many great cases out there. You guys are curious. You're curious like I am. That's kind of my methodology. You know, just if I meet somebody and I think they're interesting or it's an interesting topic, I had a woman on, a young woman in her thirties who Mark Cuban invested in her company it's 3D Seawalls, living Seawalls. She was actually one of my best guests. I couldn't believe it. It was like she, this woman, was media ready. So yeah, that's kind of how I look at it. Would you guys ever have somebody you absolutely detest on your podcast? But you think, but Kelly's shaking his head now but, you think that they have?
Speaker 1:something valuable to say. No, okay, that's your vote, wayne.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know I actually treasure any time I can disagree with Kelly, but on this one I think I'm with him If they have something really good to say, but they don't fit into the structure, I guess, of what Kelly and I are bringing out there, which is a podcast that we believe in and we're proud of. If we're not behind you, for whatever reason, then maybe you better go find a different podcast.
Speaker 3:Like a bad example would be like if Jeffrey Dahmer was still alive. I mean, he was really great at what he did. I never had him on the show.
Speaker 2:I was living in Milwaukee when he was throwing people in the crock pot, dude, I was there. Okay, I should have. I apologize, don't think you know more about jeff than I do you know what I I have to jump in.
Speaker 1:I grew up in desplaines, john wayne, gacy same summer, not the clown guy the clown killer? Yes, and actually my older brother was seven years older than me. One of one of his victims was in my brother's graduating class. Yes, Terrible.
Speaker 3:I mean we could you know?
Speaker 1:it's funny we're talking about this because during the pandemic I started listening to true crime podcast and architectural podcast, all different sorts, and that's kind of when I said oh wow, I think I'd like to do a podcast on association issues. But yeah, maybe for a different time we can talk about killers.
Speaker 3:But there's other people that they just don't align with our salespeople.
Speaker 3:I've known some salespeople that do incredible numbers and I have zero respect for them and I always say you know, and I worked with another guy we interviewed a guy from my old company up in DC and I was best friends with the owners and so we took the guy golf and he was a great golfer and we're in Greg. The owner says Kelly, what do you think? Do you think we should hire me? Because he's nothing like you? I said, yeah, what do you think, do you think we should hire him? He goes, he's nothing like you.
Speaker 3:I said, yeah, I think he'd be perfect for us. He was, but now that's he's kind of a weird example because he was a great salesman but he did it completely different than the way I approach clients, but he was, but he still was honest, as the day is long. Now, if that guy there's other people that we talked to and we didn't necessarily take them golfing to see if they were going to interview, but it's a great way to thank somebody and the reason we hired that one guy I said, listen, I don't care if he's good or not, we're going to win tournaments with this guy. But, with that being said, some people can be really bad people but really successful at what they do and I don't want to have any. I don't want anything to do with him.
Speaker 1:Well, I actually feel the same way. Let me ask you who's your dream?
Speaker 3:you guys have a dream guest in mind, just a really, if you could get this person on your podcast I can't say his last name, but for me it's nick the guy with no arms and no legs and I've actually been in talks with him and hopefully we will eventually get him on the show. Do you know who he is?
Speaker 3:I do not he's, he's the. He's the number one speaker in the world, but a lot of people I mean, he has no arms, no legs, born that way, wow, and real handsome guy. He's got a wife and a few kids, um, and he's come through and his story will break your heart and also you'll make him, make you love him forever.
Speaker 1:So hopefully maybe send him this podcast. That's your dream guest, wayne dream guest. You ever given any thought?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, I'd really like the CEO of Lifetime Fitness. When I lived in Minnesota, their corporate headquarters was called Chanhassen. I lived in a suburb right next to it called Chaska, but the place I would work out was Lifetime Fitness and I knew the owner. He started out pushing a broom at US Swim and Fitness, which was a big chain of clubs. He came over with his family in 1979 during the Iranian revolution. That happened and forced a lot of Iranians to move to the United States.
Speaker 2:He started with nothing and he runs a fitness empire. So I'd actually talked to him at one time in the club because he would work out there. He'd just be among all of us and he was pretty close to coming on. I talked to his assistant and unfortunately it didn't work out. But the people I mean you show me a strong person, you know, and I'll show you someone that didn't have a choice, right, and I refuse to believe that the common person can't move a mountain, because we've seen it. Dude comes in here and can speak English, right, he's pushing a broom and all of a sudden he's the CEO of the largest I'm going to call it low-based fitness center in the United States. There's a lot of them in Florida. Okay, they opened up a new one in Tampa Lifetime Fitness. He would be my dream guest just because of-.
Speaker 3:Hey, listen, my guy had no arms and no legs and you're just talking about some-.
Speaker 1:Listen, I hope you both get your dream guests. See, I've gotten my dream guests because you're on the show today.
Speaker 2:So I thought for sure.
Speaker 3:Wayne was going to go. Well, you already have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I think Donna could see through that line of BS. No. I just want to tell you.
Speaker 1:You said women were good. You said women were good salespeople. There you go. Oh, that's right.
Speaker 3:We gave one, but for the next 52 weeks weeks we've got incredible people lined up people on this, but it really we've. It's amazing how many great guests we've had you gotta try to get.
Speaker 1:You gotta try to get steve on your podcast because he is. He's a lot of fun and he is so knowledgeable.
Speaker 3:It's just that his schedule is crazy it is, and I, I, we better get him on at some point. But, um, you know, I like to get him and james at the same time. I think they could, you know, buddy, buddy together. So that's four gonna have a good time.
Speaker 1:But steven, he's steve lexler would be a great.
Speaker 3:I I'm already gotta walk the line because I, I'm, I'm like, I think he's like so great at what he does. I don't want people to think that there's anything except for I just think, think he's great.
Speaker 1:It's a fan episode.
Speaker 3:Yeah, We've had a lot of our dream guests have been on the show so truly without kissing our guests in the past. We really have been pleased.
Speaker 1:You have listen for everybody who's listening to this podcast. Their podcast is fantastic. I love it and they should. They should come and visit and you're. You're out every week. I don't know how you do that. I'm out twice a month. That's like enough for me. So it's very ambitious that you guys put out content weekly.
Speaker 3:Sometimes it's easier than others to to make it happen, but we we had a gentleman who was a quadriplegic in high school who now he's married with a beautiful wife and kid and runs his own business. I mean, I hate to brag, but our guests are amazing, it's just amazing.
Speaker 1:All right. So you guys, I've kept you so long. I want to ask you one last question each, and I've never asked a guest this question before. But I'm going to start with. Wayne. You're writing your memoir. What's the title?
Speaker 2:Here's what it is. There's one of my favorite lover boy songs of the 1980s. It's called Loving Every Minute of it, so the title is Loving Every Minute of it. The Rise, Fall and Rise of a Sales Superstar.
Speaker 1:Wow, I'd buy that book.
Speaker 2:Thank you, and so yeah, I mean I don't know if I'd like that book. But actually kept a diary my entire senior year in high school, so I have the diligence of being able to chronicle parts of my life that I've kept and then to be able to fill out the rest of the stuff that happened since 1984, that would be in the book and then the title of it is just what I said.
Speaker 1:You should do it. I hope you give some thought to that.
Speaker 2:Well, there's no thought in it. I just don't know when I'm going to be able to write the last chapter, because they keep getting bigger and bigger as I get older and older. So but it will. Pen to pen, will be put to paper the old school way at some point. Thank you for asking.
Speaker 1:If you do it, I want an autographed copy. I'm so scared to actually ask Kelly for the name of what his memoir would be after seeing the self-reported biography he sent me, but I'm going to do it anyhow. I'm going to be brave, Kelly. What would the title of your memoir be?
Speaker 3:Well, I just thought of it about five seconds ago, but it'd be called Making the Best of my Dash.
Speaker 1:Making the Best of my Dash, making the Best of your Dash Dash.
Speaker 3:I love quizzes, I love word games, I love trivia and all that stuff. What's the dash? I was born on April 17, 1963. Dash, the dash is your life. That's very clever, that is cool Making the Best of my clever. That is cool. That is very cool Making the best of my dash.
Speaker 3:I like that. Guys. I love my life. I've had the most incredible life. Hopefully there's still a lot left in it, but I never have a bad day. I only have bad moments and now, fortunately, since I live two blocks from the beach, if I'm having a bad moment, I just walk over to the beach, take a look at it for a couple seconds and I head back to work.
Speaker 1:Guys, Wayne, Kelly, thanks so much for joining us today. Have a good one.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having us. I appreciate it. Donna, Take care Bye.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to follow and rate us on your favorite podcast platform or visit Take.