Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger
Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger
The Impact of Rentals on Community Associations with David Muller, Vice Chair of Becker’s Community Association Practice
This week’s episode of Take It To The Board explores a topic that resonates deeply with many community association boards: the impact rentals have on a community and how to balance an owner's desire to lease out his or her unit with the association's desire to foster a stable and invested resident population.
Renters can sometimes feel like outsiders, perceived as being less connected to the community’s long-term success but is this perception unfair particularly as it pertains to long-term renters? Host Donna DiMaggio Berger is joined by her partner, David Muller, Vice Chair of Becker’s Community Association Practice and an expert in condominium and planned development law. Together, they discuss their experiences dealing with renters and rental issues in their client communities and brainstorm on best practices and solutions in this area.
Conversation Highlights Include:
- Renter vs. owners’ rights in Florida community associations
- Best practices for renter screening
- Amendments for communities who want to discourage leasing
- Recommended insurance coverage for condominium or cooperative owners who routinely lease out their units
- Challenges related to short-term rentals such as Airbnb
- Renters in “55 and Over” communities
- Section 8 vouchers
Related Links:
Hi everyone. This is Donna DiMaggio-Berger from Take it to the Board. As we close out 2024, I want to take a moment to thank all of you for being part of this incredible community we have created. We want to wish you a joyous holiday season filled with warmth and love, and I really hope you enjoy this final episode of 2024 with my partner, david Muller. As we talk about renters and the leasing issues that many community associations experience on a regular basis, we're going to be very excited to return in 2025 with a fresh lineup of fascinating guests and compelling topics, and you won't want to miss them.
Speaker 1:So until then, if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, rate and review, and until then, wishing you the happiest of holidays and a very, very happy new year. Hi everyone, I'm attorney Donna DiMaggio-Berger, and this is Take it to the Board, where we speak condo and HOA. Today we're diving into a topic that stirs up mixed emotions in many community associations renters. While associations often focus on creating a stable, invested community of homeowners, renters sometimes find themselves viewed as outsiders, people who don't have a stake in the community's long-term success. This perception can lead to friction, misunderstandings and even unfair treatment. But are these concerns always justified?
Speaker 1:I'm excited to have my partner, david Muller, here with us to unpack these issues. David is a board-certified specialist in condominium and planned development law and also serves as a vice chair of Becker's Community Association Law Practice Group. He has extensive experience working with Southwest Florida associations on issues like tenant screening, policy enforcement and managing community dynamics. Together, we're going to explore the unique legal, operational and social aspects of renters in our communities and how associations can strike a fair balance. So, david, welcome to Take it to the Board.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you so much, Donna. I appreciate the invitation to be here today with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this topic because we've been doing this podcast now the Becker's Take it to the board for three seasons and we have never had a discussion about renters and, as you know, for as long as we've both been doing this, that this topic comes almost all the time. This comes up. So, like in your experience, david, what is the perception about renters in communities?
Speaker 2:In general the perception is negative. A lot of boards and our community associations for sure, out here on the West Coast and I'm sure similar for you on the East Coast in general there's a negative perception of renters and tenants. Now, like most things in life, it's probably because of the 5%. Right, 95% are probably just really nice, pleasant people that value the opportunity to live in the community, even though they're not owners, they're renters. But it is oftentimes the 5% that sometimes can give the entire group a bad name. But yeah, the short answer to your question is it serves up a lot of negative emotions and I've had more than one meeting with clients where they start out by saying we have got to get rid of these renters.
Speaker 1:The few rotten apples. But do you think, david, that the perception has really changed because of the advent of short-term rentals like Airbnb? As opposed to people who've been renting long-term in the community and they feel almost like they own the place.
Speaker 2:No for sure. I think the Airbnb, uh Verbo uh dynamic has has changed a lot. Uh, you know, example my, my uncle, from New Jersey comes down to Naples. He and his wife, uh you know four months out of the year and had been coming to the exact same place in the exact same community for like 18 years. And the people in that community they don't even know they're renters for the most part. They treat them really like their owners, but they're not Airbnb-ers. Their continual comeback every year and the percentage of rentals that are that way I don't have any data to back this up, but it must be eroding and being replaced with a lot of Airbnb and Vrbo. So yeah, it is changing things dramatically.
Speaker 1:So in those communities where they do have a significant percentage of renters, david, we do often get questions like what rights do these renters have? Can they show up to meetings? Do they have the right to make document inspection requests?
Speaker 2:It's a good question. It's a good question and to prepare for this podcast, one of the things just I went back just curious, because it's one of those things you don't often do I pulled up the Condominium Act and I pulled up the HOA Act and just did a word search for renter and tenant, right, just to see how many times they pop up. And you know it's in there quite a bit. So let's hit some of the high points you mentioned right to attend meetings, board and membership meetings. Short answer is no. Renters don't have the rights to attend a board meeting or a membership meeting.
Speaker 2:Now, like everything in the law, there's caveats, right. I have seen scenarios where a renter is a proxy holder, designated proxy holder, and then, of course, some documents have specific requirements for proxy holders, but in general they're not permitted to come. There's other nuances, like power of attorney and things like that, but we won't get into that, that's for another podcast. But yeah, in general they don't have the right to attend these meetings. They do, for example, in the Condominium Act they have specific carved out rights to review the governing documents as well as certain structural reports and things like that. So you will find some carve-outs within the statutes that do give renters certain additional rights, but in general they don't have the right to go to these meetings.
Speaker 1:You mentioned your family member and there is a difference, because I have some clients with long-term renters and they do make an exception to that rule. So, even though the board or membership meeting is open to members and these are not technically members, they're people who are invested in the community Are you worried about setting a precedent if you allow a long-term tenant to attend a meeting and then another short-term tenant maybe even a problematic tenant wants to attend?
Speaker 2:That's always a potential concern. Under the veil of a selective enforcement type argument, you're treating one person differently than you are somebody else. So, yeah, that is a concern In general. Well, attendance at board meetings historically up until the past couple of years, at least on the West Coast, it's not as if people were, like you know, beating down the door to come to these meetings. Right, a lot of these meetings were not well attended.
Speaker 2:It seems like the tide has turned a little bit, at least on our coast, where people are much more engaged. The Zoom attendance has kind of changed things. So to your point and your question you do have to be cognizant of rule one of community association law no good deed goes unpunished, which is, if you allow a tenant to attend a board meeting or a membership meeting just because you like them and they're a good person, well, you might have a situation where somebody who's disruptive, who's also a renter, may want to come to your meeting and you may not want them to come because it could be problematic. So you do have to be careful about who you allow in.
Speaker 1:Especially now with the changes in Florida law, and I should say at the outset, david and I are both Florida attorneys. We are going to be talking about Florida law, although not exclusively. We've got people listening all over, so check your own state statute. When it comes to renter's rights. What about use rights, david? So somebody's renting, whether they're renting for a year or, you know, multiple years the right to use the parking space, the right to use the gym and all the other amenities.
Speaker 2:Definitely so in terms of those rights. It is like, for example, the condominium act here in Florida. It is specifically carved out that the tenant has all of the use rights to the common elements and the amenities and the unit owner shall not have the rights as a guest unless the tenant specifically waives the rights to use these amenities and things like that. So the answer to your question is yeah, they have all of those rights, those use rights, as if they were an owner and definitely need to be aware of that.
Speaker 1:Inspecting the documents. So I'm renting and I just decide I don't like this board a lot so I'm going to make a lot of document inspection requests. I'm a renter. What am I entitled to look at? What am I entitled to?
Speaker 2:look at, yeah, the governing documents for example in a condominium, the Declaration of Condominium, the Articles of Incorporation, the Bylaws, the Rules, and I believe they added here recently to the statute the certain structural reports. I think is another one of the things that a tenant is allowed. But yeah, it's a relatively I say relatively narrow. The official records, the definition of official records is very broad right and encompasses a whole lot. So by comparison to what an owner can actually have access to versus what a tenant can have access to, it is very narrow.
Speaker 1:And those were recent developments, because for years it was as a tenant. You're not entitled to really see anything.
Speaker 2:A new development for sure. Yeah, there's definitely a push and I know you know this better than me, for sure, because you spend a lot of time focusing in on the day-to-day ongoings in Tallahassee. I focus in on it as well, but more like week to week as opposed to day to day. But there's a movement by many of the folks up in Tallahassee to expand the rights of renters and you're correct that change that gives them the ability to inspect certain documents. That was just added a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've had renters ask their boards I want to see my file. Have you ever had that come up where a renter said I want to see my screening file?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I've had that from. Every once in a while I've had that come up and yeah, if you look at the definitions that are before us, as far as what they can get their hands on, they're not permitted for that, permitted to see that, although they could go to their landlord, the unit owner, and say, but even the landlord's not going up. Those issues are coming up for me daily and it's a really good idea for folks listening. Pay attention to the statute. 718.111, subparagraph 12 is the section that covers official records. There is a paragraph in there that talks about the records that are to be excluded and every board member, particularly in a condo I'm referring to now, they really should take a look at those documents that are excluded and, as you mentioned, owners may not. You know they're not allowed to certain documents as it pertains to the leasing application.
Speaker 1:You know I should have mentioned in the introduction that my partner, david, has a very impressive memory bank when it comes to statutory citation and case law citation. I'm not going to put you to the test today, but your ability to spit out case law and statutory citations is impressive.
Speaker 2:Well, it's incredible because I really can't tell you what I did this past weekend or what I had for dinner last night, but for some reason, I can tell you exactly what certain statutes say.
Speaker 1:We're talking about what rights tenants have. I want to talk about what rights they don't have, specifically pets. So this comes up a lot. I don't know if you find this on your coast, I know on my coast we do. Can we prevent tenants under a uniform lease addendum from having pets in the unit?
Speaker 2:Well, there's cases that talk about the distinction between owners being allowed to have pets and tenants not being allowed to have pets. There are cases that say you can prohibit tenants from having pets but still allow owners, and what I see in my practice is typically that is in a declaration of condominium or in an HOA setting the declaration of covenants. I do see it in the rules and sometimes the lease addendums that are essentially rules. I do see those as well from time to time. But you know we really like I joke with people that I spend 80% of my day on the three P's pets, people and parking right and so you know your question about the pets has hit upon two of the three P's pets and people right, two of the three P's pets and people right. So you know the bottom line is that is a common restriction for tenants not to be able to have pets.
Speaker 1:And then we know what happens they morph into what?
Speaker 2:Emotional support animals. They morph into emotional support animals or, you know, less likely, a service animal. There's a distinction and I'm not sure if you've had a podcast on on that topic.
Speaker 1:I predict you probably have, Um, but uh, yeah, emotional with our partner Joanne Burnett. Yes, Joanne, yeah.
Speaker 2:Joanne Burnett, who is uh, who's the guru in the state on, uh, on all things emotional support animals and service animals. But yes, you are correct that if you have these restrictions that say, hey, you can't, you know you're a tenant and you can't have a pet, prepare yourself when the tenant shows up with their dog, there's a good chance. If you try to pursue enforcement action against the tenant and the owner for this violation, there's a decent chance. Their response is going to be to assert that the dog is an emotional support animal, which then, if they check the boxes, triggers certain state and federal laws which may result in the association having to allow for a reasonable accommodation of that pet restriction. So it's a challenging situation. So it is, it's a challenging situation. You know.
Speaker 2:I say this. We all know there are situations that are no brainers, where you know we need to be mindful of folks with disabilities and emotional support animals and service animals. They play a very important role. Right, the problem? Right, the problem and I think you would probably agree with me on this is sometimes there are folks that appear to be abusing the system and that's where the challenges come in and, candidly, that's where you need legal representation to help you flush through what's a legitimate emotional support animal, a legitimate disability claim, versus something that is not legitimate, maybe was purchased on the internet for 20 bucks.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you. We will put links to Joanne's two episodes in the show notes for this episode, because she does cover that. And when does this come to light? It typically comes to light when the potential tenant is filling out his or her application, right, and it says do you have pets, do you have a service animal or emotional support animal? So we will add those links. I want to throw you a little bit of a curveball. Okay, you ready.
Speaker 2:I'm ready. I'm a big baseball fan and I'm missing the baseball season, so please throw me a curveball.
Speaker 1:So can tenants have guests? Let's say we don't have a lease addendum, okay, and we talk about tenants rights to use the unit, parking space, the amenities, the same as the owner, but does the tenant have a right to have guests, and including overnight guests? If they're, let's say they go hiking over the summer for a two-week vacation.
Speaker 2:Well, the short answer is, in general, they do have the rights to have guests right. But the more specific answer can be like with your fact pattern, there can be limitations put on the guests that tenants can have right, and one of the things we do a lot of work with is rewriting governing documents and you can put in. You know we have a pretty extensive section on guest rights and when they're allowed and what the restrictions are and if they're overnight and do they need approval and all of this you know. Some communities say to me like when I do a document rewrite project as a little side note, a lot of communities out there should consider a document rewrite project because the way the laws are changing and with all of these issues that are covered by your great podcast, I mean there's so much here and if communities aren't taking advantage of some of the opportunities afforded to them in the law, they're missing out. And so guest use rights is one of those areas that are typically never covered in your boilerplate developer, attorney drafted documents.
Speaker 2:But we can really hone in on them, and so when I provide the first draft of rewritten documents for my clients, I warn them in advance. I say I'm going to give you a whole section that's going to be very detailed on guest rights. I'm going to give you a whole section that's going to be very detailed on guest rights. You may read it and say you don't like it and we can take it out. And you may read it and you may say this is the best thing I've ever seen and we can go with it. So it covers all of these nuances in terms of guests. Because look, for example, with your fact pattern, you don't want, particularly in the Airbnb Vrbo age, you don't want these tenants, these rental situations to just turn into never-ending spring break parties. Right, and that can happen.
Speaker 1:Walling door of people in the community. I think there's an even more negative connotation when it comes to unscreened guests, because at least with the tenants and I want to talk to you about that next there's some form of screening going on, but in many of these documents, to your point, unless you've recently updated them no developer documents I've ever seen have had a thorough screening provision for just guests, whether it's the owner's guest or tenant's guest or whoever.
Speaker 2:No, for sure, For sure. And you know I've I work out of the Naples and the Sarasota offices and you know my I've got teenage daughters and you know, on more than one occasion they've said to me you know I'd say where are you, where are you going? Oh, we're going to a party on Siesta Beach. Okay, what's the deal? Well, somebody rented a condo there and half the high school is going to show up and go to the party at the condo right on the beach. It's going to be incredible. And the whole time I'm thinking wait a second, is that one of my clients? Because if it's one of my clients, I'm going to get a call on Monday about this.
Speaker 2:But these are the serious concerns that need to be considered, because you do not want spring break happening in your communities every weekend. You know four or five months out of the year and it can happen.
Speaker 1:You talked about document rewrite projects. I know you do a lot of those, david, and yeah, if you haven't looked at your documents with a keen eye over the last couple of years, you're way overdue. That being said, when you do those document rewrites whether it's a look it's a little more compelling in a multifamily building as opposed to a single family homeowners association, but even those folks are very concerned about rentals. What does your ideal screening amendment look like when you're doing the rewrite project? Talk to us a lot about the various amendments that the board can consider if renting is something that's either currently a problem in their community or a potential future problem.
Speaker 2:Right? No, I'm happy to go into that and let me set the scene for this discussion. On more than one occasion I've had a president call me, typically in the condo setting, but sometimes in the HOA setting. The condo president calls me and says okay, we are freaking out here. We just realized that the person that purchased unit 108, right by the swimming pool, is a sexual predator, and what are we going to do about it? We've got to get this person out of there. And I've had occasions.
Speaker 2:There've been times, where I've said wait just a minute, and I look at the governing documents and I say, all right, we've got a plan, you've got restrictions and there's things we can do. On other occasions, though, I've had a situation where I've had to tell the client you don't have any restrictions or authority to approve sales, and sometimes they don't have the ability to approve leases and things like that, and so that may be an extreme example, but it's a real world example that has come up, so this is why this is important. Now, before I get into some of the nuances of what I like to see with these documents, I always like to start out by saying remember that if you're going to put in these administrative obligations on your community, like receiving applications, reviewing them you've got to actually do it right. You can't just put in all these restrictions and then not actually have anybody do the administrative work, and if your community, particularly maybe a smaller community, maybe you don't have an in-house manager, you've got to make sure that you can actually do the work. Now, setting aside the administrative work that goes along with it, I like to see clear-cut language that says you must submit an application, the application, put in a deadline by which the application must be received before the proposed closing date.
Speaker 2:I like to make it clear-cut that we're going to run a criminal background check and in your documents you want to have very objective criteria addressing what type of criminal background offenses and convictions will empower the association to deny an application. And just going through a couple here of Becker we're constantly revising and updating our forms so that we have the strongest ability to win these cases if they're litigated. Just going through a recent doc rewrite project that I went through that I prepared, here are some of the criteria A capital first or second degree felony involving violence to persons within the past 10 years. A first or second degree felony involving illegal drugs within the past 10 years. Any drug offense.
Speaker 1:David, I'm sorry, let me stop you. You're talking about a conviction, not an arrest.
Speaker 2:Yep for sure. We're talking about convictions. So the opening paragraph says the person seeking approval has been convicted or pled no contest to or has been released from prosecutor. So I can tell you all convicted on this date of this offense and it directly syncs up with what our documents say and, as a result, we're rejecting your application. Let's just keep it real here A misdemeanor smoking marijuana offense from 28 years ago, that's not going to be part of the criteria that can be used to deny an application.
Speaker 1:Agreed, agreed. What about credit score? Remember this particular episode, and we're doing kind of a crossover between sales and leases because the denial for good cause language you just laid out. We typically use that for both screenings, whether we're screening potential purchasers or potential lessees. But let's step with renters for a second. Do we care what the renter's credit score is if it's the owner who owes assessments to the association?
Speaker 2:Well, the credit score is an interesting topic. You'll get different answers to this question depending on which lawyer you talk to as a starting point. So all I can do is give you my answer. But my answer is, for a renter no, we don't care. And the reason we don't care is twofold. Number one the buck stops with the owner to pay the assessments. It is the owner who has the obligation. Now the second reason for my answer and we could debate it.
Speaker 2:I'd be curious to see if you are similar thinking to me, or maybe you have some alternative views on this. The other reason is we have the ability to seek to collect the rent to pay for the unpaid assessment, right? So I have heard lawyers argue well, wait a minute, it's that authority embedded in the community association statutes to go grab the rent. That might be one of the reasons we care about the credit score, but in general, to me, credit score is look, there are things that I think are proper criteria to be focused on when it comes to evaluating a tenant. I personally don't think credit score makes the cut. How about you?
Speaker 1:I agree. I think the hey, if the tenant can't pay the rent, that's going to impact the owner, and if the owner is an investor owner which we're going to talk about in a second maybe they're depending on that. They don't want to lay out the money. You know that's going to impact their ability to pay us. I think that's a more attenuated argument to make. It does bring up another issue for me, though, that I want to ask you about. Are you surprised that more owners whether it's an individual who's just renting they're not really an investor owner, but they're renting right now but particularly investor owners that they're not running their own background checks? David, for the most part they're just relying on the association screening, and a lot of them really don't run their own background checks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am very surprised, I know, with my house, uh, you know, I know with my house, um, I've invested a ridiculous amount of money and in this house and if I ever end up, uh, buying another house and renting out my current house, who knows whether I'll be able to do that someday? Um, if I ever find myself in a position where I'm going to be renting this property that I've invested so much money in, you better believe I'm going to want to know all I can about these renters, because if I get some folks in there that maybe are not the type I want in there, yeah, it can be a problem and they can damage your property and leave you high and dry and then get in the car and drive to Canada and there's really no recourse.
Speaker 1:I want to ask you have you ever considered an amendment, david, that would require owners to conduct their own background screening checks in addition to the association screening?
Speaker 2:You know, I've never considered that, but I think that's, you know, not a bad idea. One argument might be do you really need two? It could be all people.
Speaker 1:but this way at least they know who they're bringing into the community and they, you know we've done away with their plausible deniability.
Speaker 2:Right? No for sure, I mean. I think that that is if that amendment is written properly to impose that type of restriction.
Speaker 1:I think that works. You talked a minute ago. If you are ever in the situation where you decide to to rent out your lavish current home, um 2200 square feet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, palatial estate yeah there could be your state. Um, there could be some damage that a tenant does, and tenants not only have the ability to do damage inside the unit, but damage to the common areas. Let's talk about insurance a little bit and security deposits. So how important is it that owners who routinely rent out and we're talking about in Cotabiniums, let's say in a multifamily building, that they have interior coverage?
Speaker 2:I think it's important for a lot of reasons. I'm always amazed at the number, particularly in the condo setting. In the HOA setting, I find it's pretty common to have the insurance you need. It's pretty common to have the insurance you need, but in the condo setting, a lot of owners don't have the insurance protection. The most common version is the HO6 insurance policy and that can provide you coverage. I'm also candidly shocked by the number of people that don't really know who their insurance agent is or don't really communicate with them.
Speaker 2:Your insurance agent is. You know, when you're making your holiday card list, your insurance agent needs to be high on the list, just below your lawyer, in terms of who you keep in touch with, because you need to ask them these questions. Hey, I'm looking to rent my property out. Let's cover all of the things that could happen. What happens if the? You know what happens if, for example, some condominiums have situations where there's, like, a swimming pool dedicated to the unit you know that's less common type of condominium association but maybe a jacuzzi or things like that. You know what happens if someone's injured or God forbid killed in my property during the rental. What's going to happen? What happens if they cause a water leak. What type of coverage is there? So yeah, insurance coverage when you're renting is critically important.
Speaker 1:I like to tie proof of the HO6 coverage with the association added as an additional insured as one of the reasons to potentially deny if they don't provide that.
Speaker 2:It's a good point. Yeah, having that extra layer of protection for the association is critical.
Speaker 1:So in Florida again, we've got people listening all over. But in Florida associations are entitled to take a security deposit for common area damage caused by renters up to one equal to one month's rent. I don't know if you get asked this question. I get asked. This just came up recently. The renter had been violating certain restrictions and rules. There were fines assessed. The association wanted to maintain a portion of that security deposit to cover the fines.
Speaker 1:My answer is no that the security deposit is there to cover damage. If you read the statute again, we're talking very Florida specific right now. But what are your thoughts on the use, the application of that security deposit?
Speaker 2:I think so I predict your rationale. There was the statutes basically covers what you can use it for, and fines were not included. Presumably the legislature opted not to add that in. Had they wanted to include that authority, presumably they would have added it. So no, I agree with you. I for sure agree with that conclusion.
Speaker 1:All these episodes because they twist and turn. I just thought of another thing I want to ask you about security deposits and that's your client David has been taking by the way, I'm making this up If it's your client listening, we're not referencing particularly Client has been taking these common area security deposits for years. They never return them. Tenants move out, they don't ask for them. They've accumulated. What do they do with them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's an interesting question. I would definitely want to get more information about exactly time and never acted on, you know, needed to dip into those security deposits. So I mean I think I haven't had that specific fact pattern come up, but I'm predicting the answer is going to be return it to the owner. But you tell me, have you had that come up and what was your analysis?
Speaker 1:I should know that these scenarios I'm giving you are so different on the east coast of Florida as opposed to the west coast of Florida, because we do have things come up all the time in southeast Florida. I think it's a sheet. Am I pronouncing that correctly to the state? I think you probably have to turn the funds over to the state after making a good faith effort to give it back to whoever gave you the deposit, whether it was the owner or the tenant directly. But this is into housekeeping issues, right? If you're self-managed, make sure that you're keeping on top of these things. If you're professionally managed, there's probably, hopefully, a policy in place to deal with the security deposits.
Speaker 2:Right, gotcha, yeah, I think that you would. You definitely want to stay on top of that. I mean, look, since we referenced my daughters earlier, you know I always tell them rule one know where your money is. Okay. So that's the same rule for our clients Know where your money is and keep a close watch on your money, because if years have gone by and these security deposits have just built up, it can cause all sorts of headaches and, like you mentioned, the law is vast. It's incredible just how vast the laws are, particularly in the state of Florida, particularly on community association issues, and if you allow something like that to build up, there could be all sorts of legal implications and for the most part, you want to just try your best to avoid that. So keep track of your money and if you need to return it to somebody, return it to that somebody.
Speaker 1:You're so diplomatic, you refer to our Florida laws, our Florida shared ownership statutes as vast I call them bloated and virtually incomprehensible.
Speaker 2:So very much I'm often saying to my clients. Let me preface this by saying don't shoot the lawyer, right? Because it is completely ridiculous how intricate some of these statutes have gotten. How intricate some of these statutes have gotten, but look, it is what it is. We make our living interpreting them, so it is a challenge. And look, every year the legislature meets in Florida and every year these statutes change. So I'm licensed in Texas and last I checked. So you know I'm licensed in Texas and last I checked, I don't think Texas like a two-page statute Nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nice exactly, Although it probably would mean less work for-.
Speaker 2:It probably would.
Speaker 1:With a two-page statute.
Speaker 2:Probably good for our golf game, though, because we'd be golfing every afternoon at 4 o'clock instead of working.
Speaker 1:Well, some of us golf like you. Some of us just live on a golf course and heckle the golfers some of the golf that go past. I would never heckle you, david.
Speaker 2:And I appreciate that. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:So, like you, like me, like our peers and colleagues, we've all been doing these webinars. I did one right before I hopped on this podcast episode talking about the new safety laws in Florida, tied to the inspections, the engineering inspections and then, of course, the reserve funding. I think some of the frustration that a lot of communities are experiencing right now, in addition to paying for all this stuff, is that in communities where they do have a significant percentage of renters in multifamily buildings, they're finding access control problems. So they've got renters who, if they're doing large concrete restoration or painting and waterproofing or roofing projects, where a renter may say, hey, I'm not letting you in. I paid for a year for this unit, okay, I want to have access to that balcony. Maybe it has to be shut off because they are doing concrete restoration on the balcony, but it's hard to explain that to a renter, particularly if the unit owner, slash landlord, has not done a good job preparing his or her tenant for a series of upcoming maintenance and repair projects. Have you run into that as well?
Speaker 2:series of upcoming maintenance and repair projects. Have you run into that as well? Yes, it's a big problem. It's a big problem, particularly with our aging buildings, with all this work that's needed to be done. Yeah, it is a big problem. How do you deal with it? Number one the law is on your side, right? I mean, you have the right to perform this maintenance, the repair, the reconstruction. You have the right to do that, and owners and tenants can't prohibit you from doing that, from doing that work. But there are best practices and recommended steps that need to be followed. Okay, let's go through some of those.
Speaker 2:Disclosure transparency, advance notice right, that's the name of the game. Disclosure transparency, advance notice right, that's the name of the game. As much lead time as you can give to your community to let them know this big ticket project's coming up. This is what's happening. We're going to continue to give you updates and developments. It's critical. You would hope the owners then convey that information to the tenants, but that doesn't always happen. And so, yeah, it is a shame, particularly in like a condo that's waterfront, that allows weekly rentals, where there's all this work being done on the swimming pool and the family from Iowa comes down for vacation and book their condo unit through Airbnb or Vrbo and then they find out they can't use their swimming pool. They're not going to be very happy, right? So you would hope the owners are going to convey this information, but to me, the first step is make sure the owners know this information right.
Speaker 2:Because there's no chance it's going to get to the tenants if the owners don't know. And if the owners know with enough advance notice, they can take whatever steps are necessary and maybe even decide not to rent their unit for the month where the work's going to be done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, makes total sense. Are there any particular concerns, David, for 55 and over communities when it comes to renters?
Speaker 2:There are those concerns With 55 and older. There are certain requirements, that one of them being that 80% of the units are occupied by somebody 55 and older. So right off the bat, you've got to make sure that that census is adhered to when it comes to renting, because you certainly wouldn't want to lose your 55 and older status. I know, for those communities that have that status, they treasure it right, and so you don't want to lose that. So, yeah, there are many reasons that they need to be paying attention, but that 80% threshold is one of them, one of the big ones.
Speaker 1:Themes we've had on the podcast. There's been a couple Artificial intelligence I ask about. I'm not going to ask you about that because I don't even think it has applicability here unless robots start applying to purchase homes or prior to rent. We're not there yet, not quite yet. But another thing has been the affordable housing crisis. This is reaching critical mass in Florida and other states and it's gotten worse. It's gotten worse. We've got more Fortune 500 companies moving in, but I'm not sure where all the service people are going to live. So this has been a question that I've asked a number of guests. I'm going to ask you about it in terms of Section 8 housing vouchers, so I don't know how much again you're on Southwest Florida. It's a little bit. It might be a little bit different in your market, but I know you know this topic. What do you say to clients who you know when they are confronted with a tenant who is the beneficiary of Section 8 housing voucher, and maybe just tell our listeners what that is?
Speaker 2:Right. So Section 8, it is a program, you know, a governmental program, to help supplement the rents of folks that are below a certain economic line. Right, you know folks that are from an economically challenged group, an economically challenged group. So the question becomes can you, can a community, as an example, say nope, no, section eight, anywhere here and not in our community? Now I will tell you, in Southwest Florida this topic doesn't come up a whole lot.
Speaker 2:To your earlier point where you said communities are changing, I view myself as being on the front line of a lot of things and I've got a front row ticket to seeing how Florida is changing. And one example of that is, you know, I represent a fair number of mobile home communities and they are calling me more and more, saying we don't know what's happening, we assume it's the housing crisis, but we've got families moving in here for the first time ever, like this has always been. You know, these are not 55 and older. They, you know, they're just mobile home communities and they're the president calls me and says we have never had like families, have never wanted any part of this place, because it was just very much, you know, to cater to the elderly folks.
Speaker 1:But it's more affordable, right, David? So that's what's generating the interest?
Speaker 2:That's what's generating. The interest is in, you know, particularly in coastal areas, and I know this is true for where you are on the east coast of Florida. But in the West Coast of Florida, where are you going to live anymore? It's a challenge, and so folks are turning to wherever they can find housing that's affordable, and in some cases it's in some of these mobile home parks, mobile home communities. So you're seeing this housing crisis come up in different ways and so, candidly, I've had discussions with those groups about hey, do you want to consider certain types of restrictions? Not that we don't all love families, but a lot of folks didn't buy into these mobile home parks with the thinking that they're going to be living, you know, in this kind of family environment. But back to your question. You know, could you, knowing that again, we talked about sort of the negative connotation for renters.
Speaker 2:Some in Florida, some board members, have a negative connotation when it comes to Section 8 housing. And let's just cut right to the chase. The thought is, if you have folks with Section 8 housing supplementation, if word spreads around that your community has these folks, it may have a negative impact, or be perceived to have a negative impact, on property values. Now let me clarify, since this is a podcast, what I just stated is not Dave Muller's opinion on the subject. I'm telling you what you hear from folks who have these concerns.
Speaker 2:So, in terms of just flat out denying the rights of folks with Section 8 housing to live someplace, you have to be particularly concerned about how that might be perceived and might be an allegation of a violation of the Fair Housing Act right, which, again, not to plug. I'm sure you got into that in depth with your podcast with Joanne Burnett from our firm who specializes in this area, but that would be a real concern of mine. There's a legal concept called disparate impact right, where restrictions cannot have a disparate impact on certain groups that are protected by state and federal law. And if you adopt a restriction that says no Section 8, you might find yourself with an allegation that that restriction has a disparate impact on some of these protected groups. So you've got to be very careful before you go there In your practice. Donna, have you had this come up and how does it play out for you?
Speaker 1:Well, we have had it come up, and you mentioned a few minutes ago about in Florida, how associations have the right to demand rent from tenants in units where the owner is delinquent and not paying assessments to the association. In those cases I think Section 8 vouchers are actually very beneficial because you can go to the government, the local guy, and say here you go, we're demanding that you turn over those funds directly to the association. So look, I think there is a negative connotation about it. But I absolutely agree that you cannot make this decision without consulting with experienced legal counsel and you know what there could be a silver lining to it as well.
Speaker 2:Could be Money. Is money right Whether it's coming directly from someone's pocket?
Speaker 1:And how often do you get it from the government right?
Speaker 2:You don't. You don't get it from the government that often.
Speaker 1:They're usually taking it. They're usually taking it, they're usually not giving it. Um, I can't let you wrap up without talking about what you, your family, your friends and our peers and colleagues in southwest florida have experienced this hurricane season with helene, with milton. Um, I mean, it's just been. It's been a lot. And I say this I've been on this coast and for this cycle we've been spared. But can you tell us what you've been coping with over there and what you're seeing with your associations?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a tragedy on so many fronts. Now I will say this Certain areas of the West Coast of Florida got hammered really hard. Some of them got hammered twice, by Helene and by Milton, and I think particularly with Milton we were expecting the scope of devastation to be much more far-reaching than it ended up being, but for those folks that are in the areas that were hit hard, it's devastating. Just to give you horror stories, I have clients that were just on the cusp of restoring, finishing the restoration work from Ian, and then Milton or Helene comes along and redistributes a couple of feet of the Gulf of Mexico and they're just reconstructed communities. Um, those communities then drop sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars in remediation work to pull out the wet stuff, the wet, soon to be moldy stuff from Helene. Uh, as soon as the check was then cut to the remediation company, three days later more feet of the Gulf of Mexico redistributed back into the communities with Milton.
Speaker 2:And look, I've had all sorts of very challenging conversations with clients. You know, a couple of communities are just almost ready to wave the white flag, which is a whole, nother interesting podcast that we could have. You know, a couple of communities are just almost ready to wave the white flag, which is a whole, nother interesting podcast that we could have. But yeah, it's been devastating and you know particularly the Minnesota Key area. You know that portion of northern part of Lee County, charlotte County, southern Sarasota County and then of course part of Lee County, charlotte County, southern Sarasota County and then, and of course with Helene you know, downtown Sarasota was hit pretty hard. I mean, it's it's kind of shocking with Helene how far inland the water came into downtown Sarasota.
Speaker 2:You know, again, ian was a different beast than Helene and Milton, but all three have just been challenging and you all on the East Coast. I don't know if you saw the graphic, but I think, like the last, I don't know 15 hurricanes. It's even more than that. I think the last 15 hurricanes to hit the state of Florida named hurricanes. I think they're all on the West Coast and Panhandle. I don't think you on the East Coast have had any of them. I forget exactly what the number is, but yeah, I don't want anybody to get hit by these things.
Speaker 1:Where do you think the resilience comes from, though, to keep going, because you're right, the West Coast has gotten hammered over the last few years.
Speaker 2:I think the short answer is at least for six months out of the year. There's no better place in the world to live than Southwest Florida, so I think that's where the resiliency comes in.
Speaker 1:Listen, I'm talking to the right person, because the last thing I want to ask you before I let you go is you know? I've known you a long time, david, but I go way back yeah. I perused your firm bio and I noticed that it says you are, you're into endurance sports. So if anybody understands resilience, which endurance sports? What does that mean? What do you? Are you rock? Are you mountain climbing? What are you doing?
Speaker 2:So I'm currently training for my seventh marathon. I'm doing the Miami marathon in February, so I'm training for that and I've I've done a fair share of triathlons in my day. I did an Ironman once and who knows, there might be another Ironman in my future. So, yeah, I just find that a good sweat is the best therapy there is.
Speaker 1:You're talking to somebody who does yoga and Pilates. I guess that doesn't count, does it?
Speaker 2:My wife does Pilates, so I can tell you that I couldn't last in a Pilates class for three minutes, so I have mad respect for people who do Pilates.
Speaker 1:Your bar is hard, David. Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 2:I appreciate the opportunity and it was great to talk to everybody today.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to follow and rate us on your favorite podcast platform, or visit takeittotheboardcom for more ways to connect.