Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger
Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger
Life on The Other Side - A Resident’s Candid Take on Condo Living and Community Governance
Everyone knows that boards and management are the decision makers in community associations—but what’s it like to be on the receiving end of those choices?
In this week’s episode of Take It To The Board, host Donna DiMaggio Berger flips the script with a guest who provides a candid look at life within a condominium association where he believes things are going awry. To protect his privacy and avoid potential backlash, his identity is concealed, and he’s referred to as “Bob.” A retired attorney with four decades of executive-level experience in public companies, Bob brings a unique and thought-provoking perspective to the table.
Bob shares valuable insights into the importance of due diligence when purchasing property, reflecting on his own missteps and lessons learned. His conversation with Donna highlights the vital role diverse perspectives play in shaping the quality of life within shared ownership communities.
The discussion delves into the inner workings of board meetings, with Bob advocating for increased transparency and resident participation. He challenges the rigidity of traditional meeting formats, calling for innovation and decorum to better accommodate the varied demographics in many communities. Special assessments, the impact of meeting formats—virtual vs. in-person—and the balance between accessibility and engagement are all topics explored in depth.
From the responsibilities of board members to the rights of residents, Donna and Bob shine a light on the delicate balance between governance and community harmony. They address challenges like navigating strict community rules while maintaining personal freedoms and ensuring communal safety. Bob’s anecdotes—ranging from frustrations with hiring contractors to the convenience of maintenance-free living—paint a realistic and balanced picture of today's condo lifestyle.
Join Donna and Bob for an enlightening conversation that blends personal stories, legal insights, and practical advice on thriving in shared ownership communities.
Conversation Highlights Include:
- What led to Bob’s dissatisfaction with his Condo Board
- Ways to improve communication channels between the board and the residents
- Rules or policies that Bob finds unfair or overly restrictive (see if Donna agrees!)
- Bob’s advice to someone considering moving into a community association
- Ways a board can restore trust and improve relationships with residents
Hi everyone, I'm attorney Donna DiMaggio-Berger, and this is Take it to the Board where we speak condo and HOA. Every community association is made up of more than just budgets, bylaws and board meetings. It's made up of people. Today, we're diving into the perspective of one of those people a unit owner.
Speaker 1:Often we hear about boards and management making the big decisions, but how does it all feel from the other side? What's it like to be on the receiving end of the policies, procedures and personalities that shape a community? Our guest today is here to share what it's like to live in a condominium association where he believes things are going wrong and what he thinks boards could do better. It's a rare opportunity to step into the shoes of a resident navigating board decisions and an insightful reminder of the delicate balance between governance and community.
Speaker 1:Now my guest is asked that I refer to him as Bob in order to help avoid any backlash from this episode. Bob has been retired since 2017. He's a former attorney with four decades of executive level experience in a variety of public companies level experience in a variety of public companies. He moved into a South Florida high-rise condominium community approximately two years ago and he's had some real challenges adjusting to what he perceives to be a certain amount of rigidity in association governance, as well as a lack of common sense at times. It's important to remember that today's so-called dissident is often tomorrow's new board member, so keeping an open mind and engaging in a productive dialogue with your members, particularly the ones who do not agree with you, is crucial. So with that, Bob, welcome to Take it to the Board.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. I appreciate being here.
Speaker 1:Well, this is new for us. So you know, the whole premise of the podcast, bob, is that, you know, during the pandemic I was listening like a lot of people during shutdown. We had, you know, during the pandemic I was listening like a lot of people during shutdown, we had, you know, altered schedules and I started listening to a variety of podcasts and there wasn't one on the community association lifestyle. So I said why don't I start one? By the time this episode is released, we'll be in our fourth season and we've had all sorts of different people on the podcast, but we have not yet had a unit owner. And, by the way, I wasn't looking for just any unit owner. Okay, I was looking for somebody with your level of experience who could articulately discuss what some of the challenges are in the association lifestyle. So I'm excited and I'm sure the people listening are going to be excited to hear from somebody on the other side of the aisle.
Speaker 2:Great, I look forward to it.
Speaker 1:So let's start out. So how long have you lived in your current condominium associations? Two years, I said in the intro.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just about two years. I'm new to South Florida.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well, what attracted you to this particular property that you bought it?
Speaker 2:Oh, a handful of considerations. First, I guess I would say its location. It's very conveniently located to everything that you might want to have when you choose to live in South Florida. So that was good. The kind of the vintage of the building was an attraction to me. It's a relatively new building, so the standards of construction and the newness of it all was very attractive. It's a place that I thought, and I still think, will hold its value over time. So, as a, it's a. It's a big financial commitment, as you know, to buy into a condominium anywhere really, but certainly here in South Florida, and I guess that's about it. Those, those, those things.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to ask you, bob, how much due diligence did you do when you were buying into this particular condominium in terms of how stable the board was, whether or not I mentioned you're an attorney? Did you have to check the civil court docket to see if they'd been sued or sued? Had you talked to people in the neighborhood? What kind if you can walk us through other than, like most people, looking at the view and their layout and loving the unit, was there any sort of due diligence about the association lifestyle?
Speaker 2:I would say not enough and you're embarrassing me a little bit by putting kind of that burden, that expectation on me Not enough. I was more of a typical consumer, I would say Not enough. I was more of a typical consumer, I would say someone looking for a nice place to live, the view, the condition of the unit that I was buying challenge even for someone with a legal background because, as you well know, those things are oftentimes indecipherable or at least they don't communicate a lot of good, useful, day-to-day practical information. I guess I'd say it that way With hindsight. I certainly did not do enough diligence myself and I would recommend to really anybody who's considering a move into a community like this that they do more than I did.
Speaker 1:And certainly not meant to embarrass because yours is, across the board, typical Most people. They are looking at certain things when they're buying in a multifamily building or a shared ownership community. They're not thinking 10 steps down the road. So it's not atypical what you're describing. If you knew then what you know now about some of the challenges, would you make the same purchase decision.
Speaker 2:That's a bit of a tough one, I probably would, and it's not without its challenges, as we're going to get into. But yeah, I would. A tough one, I probably would, and it's not without its challenges, as we're going to get into. But yeah, I would say, on balance, I probably would. I would make this general observation about a first time condo owner in South Florida that I have been impressed with the ability of so many people living so close to one another who I mean they make it work. I mean, if you think about it, the shared spaces bumping into people all day long, having to be considerate of your neighbors and generally speaking, things seem to work pretty well.
Speaker 2:We'll get into some of my concerns as you kind of preview, so I think I would make the same decision. I would say that there are circumstances with this particular building, as relate to the physical structure itself, that I was not made aware of, and I guess I could ask you whether there was an obligation that someone in my shoes should have been made aware of these things. But there are. I mean, even though it's a newer building, it's less than eight years old. There are issues, none of them structural, none of them are related to safety. But nonetheless there are issues here that had I known about, I might have had a little more pause, probably would have made the same decision, because there is a process in place to address those issues, but nonetheless there were some things that I didn't know about that I think maybe I should have been told about.
Speaker 1:Did you buy directly from the developer?
Speaker 2:No, or resale. No, it was a resale.
Speaker 1:Okay. So that also sets the stage. So in new construction, especially here in Florida, we have people listening all over. But in Florida we have a process called 558 under Chapter 558 of the Florida statutes. I'm quite familiar with it now Florida law that's kind of designed to pump the brakes on a consumer's ability to go after the developer there has to be testing. Normally with new construction it's the association that's bringing the claim on behalf of the representative class of all owners and this does not preclude unit owners from directly bringing a claim against the developer. But you bought in resale. So yeah, I don't know if you used. Did you use an attorney for your purchase or just a title agent?
Speaker 2:Well, I used an attorney to review the contract and to help with the title and the closing, but the attorney either didn't have his view, his responsibility to do the kind of diligence that you're talking about. This building that I'm living in is in a 558 process itself, and I did not know about that until I was closed and living here and went to my first board meeting.
Speaker 1:Right, and then you heard all about it and listen that process. As you can imagine, developers are not keen on just writing a check when you come to them with your problems, so it can be an often protracted, costly process. But the first thing and I think this point is really important is about using the attorney. Attorney who's handling a closing, particularly in a new multifamily building or even an older multifamily building, is walking their client through those documents, looking to explain to you how many parking spaces you have. Is one of them an appurtenance to your unit, meaning it belongs to you? It cannot be split apart from the unit. Can you assign it out? Do you have storage space? Do you have exclusive use of that storage space? Again, do you own it or can you assign it out?
Speaker 1:Having counsel at the outset, talk to you about the use restrictions, you know, Bob, do you have a pet? If you do, how many pets do you have? What do they weigh? Do you have emotional support or service animals? Do you have a particular type of vehicle? All of those things. I think it's really important. First of all, I think it's important for people to use attorneys to help them purchase property and to sell property, Not to take away from real estate agents and title agents, but it's not the same as having counsel walk you through your legal rights, help you with that contract and then help you understand what you're purchasing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree with all of that, and I didn't do. I did some of that, but not all of it. It wasn't as thorough and detailed as you're describing and I would say if I were doing it again, I would take greater care with all of that for sure.
Speaker 1:So what led to your dissatisfaction? You know you've been in two years. It's relatively new construction you bought as a resale. What started you down the path of having some concerns?
Speaker 2:Yeah, again, I don't want to come across as being overly critical of anyone and so I wouldn't say that I'm quote unquote, dissatisfied. There are some issues that, as you and I have previously discussed, and I think what started was really the first board meeting that I attended and you know, and it was fairly early on while I lived here, the board is made up of a diligent, pleasant, hardworking, committed group of original owners in this building, all of whom were or are professionals in their own right engineers, lawyers, things like that and they're good people. But I was immediately struck by, I'm going to say, the formality of the board meetings, the rigidity of the interactions with the unit owners in the board meetings, the rules around the rules around interactions, which I was. I was a bit taken aback. Prior to moving to Florida, I was the president of an association of a small condo where I previously lived different state and it was much more relaxed, much more easygoing, much more interactive, much more, I'd say, you know, helpful here. So that immediately set me back and I was kind of like this is odd.
Speaker 2:The president of our board, you know, holds a gavel. He outlines the rules under which you know the meeting is going to be conducted. It's kind of a chilling introduction to the unit owners, who are basically told we've got an agenda here. We're going to cover the agenda. You'll have your time to speak. It will be limited, but you'll have your time to speak and we're in control. You just kind of follow our lead and everything will be fine here. And I found that to be a little off-putting, to tell you the truth.
Speaker 1:It didn't feel neighborly to you.
Speaker 2:Not at all, not remotely. It didn't feel neighborly, it didn't feel particularly friendly, it didn't feel collegial. So, again, I walked away from it thinking well, that was kind of interesting. I wonder if it's like that throughout South Florida, in all of these thousands of places where millions of people live. As I shared my experience with some others, I found out no, it's not always that way, but sometimes it can be. It certainly is in the place where I live. Sometimes it can be. It certainly is in the place where I live.
Speaker 1:So let's dig into that, because this was your first introduction really to governance in the community and it didn't leave the greatest first impression on you, I can tell you. You know, our firm represents associations throughout the state of Florida, in New York, new Jersey, along the eastern seaboard. It's not the same everywhere. A lot is dictated by geography and also by the number of units in a building or in an HOA. How many people are we dealing with? So my smallest community, bob, is five units. They're pretty calm. It's only the board and nobody and nobody else. Now I've got some communities. I had one at once upon a time I had a huge master association. I think they had 19 000 residents. So for the super large communities you can imagine that you do have to have a level of formality because otherwise you'd be there for days getting to everybody's questions and their input and what have you? Your community, is it more than 100 units?
Speaker 2:It's exactly 100 units.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that tells me that part of it may be the size. The other thing that I'm kind of gleaning from what you said is not every board is the same. So if your community has been around seven, six, seven, eight years, you're in the middle of a five, five, eight process. There's probably been a lot of tension and strain there's also been. If you're following the news, you know they will tell you Florida's in the midst of a condo crisis with all the new legislation and with the pressures and the rising costs related to insurance coverage in Florida.
Speaker 1:Maybe that your current board I don't know how long they've been in place. They could be battle weary at this point. They could have been bludgeoned over the last couple of years and the only way they've learned to deal with it is to implement a rigid structure. But it is my recommendation to boards that, first of all, you let people participate. So when they said we're going to let you talk, did they let you talk while an agenda item was being discussed and voted on, or did they keep the comments till the very end?
Speaker 2:Kept the comments till the end.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how did you feel about that? Well, I felt it was a missed opportunity to hear what could be a relevant and useful comment from from some members of the of the association. Yeah, that's why I felt like maybe we should hear what people have to say about whatever it is that we're talking about, and we didn't always get that there was opportunity. There always is opportunity at the end of the meeting for people to speak, so that's good, but it's typically after the formal part of the meeting has been completed, after the agenda part of the meeting is over.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's a lost opportunity as well, and I'll tell you why. I know there are unit owners who think they have to be consulted on everything and I want to talk to you about that later in the episode but there are unit owners that also come up with some pretty great ideas and some good input, so why wouldn't you before? What typically happens is you get to the agenda item. Board member makes a motion, there's a second because this is a board meeting. Then you open it up for discussion amongst the board members on that agenda item. Then you open it up for discussion amongst the owners on that agenda item and then you call the question okay. And, as you said, it's an opportunity to hear.
Speaker 1:There are some boards that feel like I don't care what anybody has to say. I've already made up my mind. That, in my opinion, is not an example of a highly functioning board. A highly functioning board should welcome it. Now, does there need to be time limits? Sure, because otherwise you could be there all day, and I've been at many of those board meetings, bob, where Mrs Smith stands up and is talking about something that has absolutely nothing to do with the agenda item. It has something to do with her personally, or something that happened last year or something that might happen two years from now nothing to do with the agenda item. So I think that boards really have to work hard to strike a balance between letting people speak when it counts, not at the end after all, the business has been done. But while you address each agenda item, does your board follow Robert's Rules of Order?
Speaker 2:or try to. Well, they seem to follow Robert's Rules of Order. I can't claim great familiarity myself with Robert's Rules of Orders, but yes they seem to. Someone seemed to pick up that book before they took the gavel and said this is how we're going to run our meetings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, can I tell you how many meetings I've been to where they think they're following Robert's Rules of?
Speaker 2:Order.
Speaker 1:They're absolutely not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. They probably view them as an excuse to conduct the meeting the way that they would like to.
Speaker 1:It's funny because I've seen it both ways. So I've seen the resident parliamentarian be a member of the board who thinks they understand the motion process, or it's been a member of the community who stands up and tries to say out of order and everything, unless the governing documents say you must conduct your meetings in accordance with Robert's rules of order. I'm not a huge fan of it because, as I said, most people don't even understand it and rather than making your meetings shorter, it can actually lengthen your meetings and make them more confusing. Another dysfunction that I see when it comes to meetings is people who stand up and they use profanity. There could be the potential threat for violence. You don't have anything like that in your community.
Speaker 2:Thankfully no.
Speaker 1:Because that makes it less likely that people actually want to go.
Speaker 2:By the way, our attendance at these meetings is not great and I think that the time that I've been here, I'm pretty sure I've attended every meeting, unless for unless, for some reason, I was out of town, but I don't even think that's occurred. I think I've attended every meeting and you know, we probably don't have 20 percent of the unit owners at any particular meeting. You know, and I'm not sure why that is. I could only speculate as to why that is, but that strikes me as not a great participation rate, although you would have a better idea than I as to what kind of the average unit owner participation is in one of these things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's not great. Have you had a special assessment in the two years you've lived there?
Speaker 2:No, and I must say the finances of this association have been well managed. The reserves are in good shape. We've not had a special assessment. We have had expenses that we've needed to seek reimbursement from the builder for and I'll say outside of the 558 process, and that those have been successfully dealt with. So I think the people who run our board have done a good job in that respect.
Speaker 1:Well, you'll see more people the first time you have a special assessment. I imagine that's when they show up. Let me ask you do your board meetings? Are they typically in person? Do they have a Zoom?
Speaker 2:component, or it's both. They're in person, no Zoom component.
Speaker 1:No Zoom. So what percentage of your neighbors live? I mean, is it mostly resident, owned, or I mean occupied.
Speaker 2:I think it's. I don't know the exact numbers, but it's certainly. I would say the vast majority are owner-occupied people who own live here, although some are under lease to the outside parties, but not maybe 20%.
Speaker 1:I mean that's interesting to me because most of the clients I deal with now after the pandemic they continued allowing a Zoom component for meetings to increase participation, because especially in South Florida you've got a lot of people for whom this may be an investor unit or it could be a second home, vacation home, that type of thing. So that's interesting that your meetings are only in person. Did you go through an interview process when you purchased?
Speaker 2:I did not. I just filled out a form asking me some basic information about myself.
Speaker 1:Filled out a form, paid a fee, no interview. Was there a welcoming committee? Did anybody tell you welcome to the community? This is you know a few things.
Speaker 2:No, I had a meeting with a member of the management company before coming here, before moving in, not before closing, before moving in, where we went over kind of the way the building works and things like that.
Speaker 1:So really your first entree was the board meeting you went to.
Speaker 2:Were there any?
Speaker 1:social events between move-in and when you went to that board meeting.
Speaker 2:No, not in that case, and there aren't a lot of those here, but there are some. I've gone to some, but not all of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have recreational amenities though pool workout, we do.
Speaker 2:We do. I should have mentioned that, as one of the attractive features of this property were the amenities of the building. Very nice.
Speaker 1:What other communication channels are there? I mean website, any social media pages for the community, a newsletter.
Speaker 2:We get a weekly kind of report, operations kind of report from the management, those who run the management aspect of the business. We hear periodically from the president of the board on issues that are topical and important and of interest to the community, and that's pretty good. We have the meetings, of course, and occasionally social events and, of course, bumping into one another around the building.
Speaker 1:Have you made friends, Bob?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I've met some people and made it doesn't sound so great. I've actually, because of some of the concerns I've had, I've gotten to know the president of the board reasonably well because he and I have had a couple of private conversations about things here. And I will say this these are positions that are challenging. Every year at budget time I ask a question if there's been a pay increase for directors budgeted into the upcoming year, as a joke, of course. And so these people are volunteering their time because they care and they want to have a nice place to live and, at least in the case where I live, they're quite committed and diligent and it's a big responsibility and I'm sure it consumes a lot of their time. So I don't really envy any of that. To tell you the truth, now that I'm kind of past that in my life, well, you've done enough of that.
Speaker 1:You were a corporate attorney for years. And you mentioned, you were on your own board in another state.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, I've had a lot of that in my life. Unfortunately, I was being paid for it at the time, but so I don't want to be too critical of these slopes. They're working hard and I know that they care about their community. It's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a really fair way to put it what you said. So a lot of look the board members and I have to encourage board members who are a little less formal than what you're describing. In your community, bob, I've got board members who want to be popular at times and they want to be everybody's friend and they're not making some of the hard decisions that they need to make. Okay, maybe I should send some of them gavels, but they don't have the gavel. They're not making those hard decisions.
Speaker 1:But what they have to understand is they are fiduciaries. The unit owners are not. So they are sitting in a position as a fiduciary where they have certain obligations and they have to enforce the rules and the statute. That doesn't mean we're going to get into some overly restrictive rules, but right down the middle you know a board need. Board members need to understand that they are in a different capacity than just somebody who is a non board member in terms of what they can and cannot do. I think the way you characterized it was really incredibly fair. That being said, you understand they're volunteering, but they have obligations as well and one of them is to help to listen to you as a member when you have an issue. What are some of the issues that you've talked about with that president?
Speaker 2:I would say they're somewhat mundane but important we're living in a community and they relate to the conduct of meetings. They relate to the level of respect people are given for their points of view. They relate to the level of respect people are given for their points of view. They relate to the need for there to be greater flexibility in communications. I mean, I think people want to have, you know, like a conversation about their life here, because after all, it's our, it's our home, and they want to feel as though they're being heard. And so I've talked with him and other board members about these things. I've had a couple of particular issues with the management company. Now, I know that's not the board and I know the responsibilities of the board differ from those of the management company. But you know, just again, it relates to our home and the way we're treated and the way we feel living here.
Speaker 2:I'll give you one crazy example. I had a guest park his car in one of my spots and I failed to get a short-term permit for the car right. So the car is there and I come back from wherever I was and there's like a pre-printed note. You know, the rules require that all guests have a temporary parking permit, like that right, and failure to adhere by the rules could result in some sort of fine. Or we're going to tow the car, something like that right, and failure to adhere by the rules could result in some sort of fine, or this you know. Or we're going to tow the car, something like that. All you know, somebody like went around saw there was no permit, put this, you know, kind of obnoxious note on my friend's car.
Speaker 2:Now I think that could have been handled in a different way. The people who run, who are in the management side, know it's my space, they know it's not my car. Someone could have called me, said hi, bob, we noticed that there's this car. You are aware that the rules require that and we really appreciate it if you would take care of that at your earliest convenience, if you would take care of that at your earliest convenience. And I just have to tell you that would have been a much better way of handling it and it would have been probably easier for the management company. But no, you know.
Speaker 2:So it's things like that it's actually little things like that, that kind of get under my skin a little bit from time to time and again that add up. And, of course, it's my house. This is our house. I'm an owner, so think about the word owner. Right, I'm an owner. I own my unit, yes, but I also own a piece of the common areas as well, and I don't always feel as though we're treated like an owner. So I would like to be treated like an owner, respectfully. Oftentimes I feel as though, whether it's the board or the management company, they're more like code enforcers as opposed to facilitators of making this a nice place for everybody to live. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Well, I do and I can tell you. I do have some clients where they have concierge level service. So just what you are saying. They treat it almost as a five-star hotel where the owner, the customer, the owner is king and they would have called in that instance. I totally get what you're saying. I'm going to push back a little bit because there could be some. You do own. You own your white box, your four walls and you own a pro rata share of the common elements, all those lovely amenities and everything else Right. But you also have competing interests from your co-owners. This is why it's a shared ownership community and I'm sure with 100 units you owners are not all on the same page.
Speaker 1:I can tell you this from experience, especially in South Florida. We have very diverse populations in our shared ownership communities. We've got people coming from other countries with different expectations. Sometimes the condominium experience in Florida is their first experience ever, bob, with living in a shared ownership community. They don't even have the foggiest notion of what the covenants are, that they're a contract.
Speaker 1:I remember one time a woman stood up at a meeting and she said well, if I don't pay my assessments, you can't do anything. It's my homestead property. And she was telling other people this too and I'm like that's absolutely not true. And in Florida, if you don't pay your assessments, you will be foreclosed, leaned and foreclosed. That was a shock to her.
Speaker 1:So my question to you my little bit of pushback, because I always think that approaching this in a courteous, civil manner if you can do something with a phone call, that's the best starting point. But what do you say to the other owner on the other side of the aisle who wants that code enforcement I bought here. I don't want Bob's guest parking there, that person who's noticing everything that's coming into and out of your unit and what you're doing in the gym and that's the resident busybody who's noticing everything that's coming into and out of your unit and what you're doing in the gym, and that's the resident busybody who's calling the manager or the board and reporting on you. I mean, it goes just beyond board versus owners.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of competing interests, do you agree? Yeah, yeah, 100%. I agree with that. And of course, everyone's point of view and preferences should be given some consideration. And you're talking about this natural tension between those who are in charge of, kind, of making the building run as it should and those who actually live here and trying to do so in a peaceful and quiet way. And I appreciate that that tension exists as well. But maybe that's where, you know, some leadership and common sense and comity is required.
Speaker 2:You know, and you can say to that persnickety person who you described you know we're handling it, appreciate what you're saying, take a deep breath. We're going to ensure that the rules are followed. We're just going to do it in a kind of a just a respectful way, that's all. And you don't always get that, you get this. It feels like, you know it feels like too often if you've ever dealt with, you know, the federal government of the United States over something. It's a big bureaucracy and you've got the board and you've got the rules and you've got the condo docs and you've got the management people and you've got the lawyers and you've got the insurance brokers and you've got all these, this whole machine. We've created this machine like machine. We've created this machine and in the middle of all that are the owners, but it's like the owners almost don't matter, it's the machine that matters.
Speaker 2:Do you know what I'm saying? And that's the frustration, to be honest with you, and I think that's the nature of organizations, nature of bureaucracies. I get that, but if there were an awareness of that dynamic among everybody, like we don't want to become that, if you were to ask people, ask anybody, they would say, oh, we don't want to become that. No, of course not, but we've become that. So that's a little bit discouraging, to tell you the truth, and it's not going to ruin my life. I'm not looking to sell my unit, I'm not, like you know, it's not like that. But it could be better, is what I'm saying. It could be more cordial, more friendly, more inviting, more collaborative, more, you know, like that, as opposed to we're the compliance officers.
Speaker 1:The term condo commando came about for a reason, Bob yes.
Speaker 2:And when I first heard it, when I first heard that a reason, Bob, yes. And when I first heard it, when I first heard that I thought that's perfect.
Speaker 1:Well, is there truly a way to avoid? Let me ask you, as somebody who's been a corporate attorney for decades and you know what. These are corporations. Right, these entities are corporations. They're not operating for-profit businesses, they are operating private residential communities. Is there truly a way for the shared ownership communities?
Speaker 1:of a certain size out, a free jail card for the very small communities for the most part, where they can opt out of certain things election protocol and other statutory requirements. Is there truly a way to avoid being a machine if you're trying to run a multifamily building a high-rise?
Speaker 2:building? Probably not altogether, because part of the reason people are able to live without attacking one another, you know, is because rules have to be applied, and they have to be applied consistently and fairly, for sure. But on the margin, I would say, maybe more than simply on the margin, I would say yes. Yes, I don't want to go through my little speech again about how we can, all you know, interact a little more. You know in a better way, but I would say it, you know, whether it's members of management or members of the board, too often people kind of use this structure that we're talking about as a way or as an excuse to kind of blow people off. You know what I mean? Oh, I can't. I couldn't do that.
Speaker 2:I had somebody here tell me about something that I was complaining about. The response was I could never do that. I had somebody here tell me about something that I was complaining about. The response was I could never do that. Our insurance broker would never let me do that. And just speaking those words, our insurance broker, you know what are you talking about, and so I understood the point. But it seemed to be kind of misplaced when that particular circumstance that I can share with you could have been handled in a different way. As opposed to saying you know our lawyer, our insurance broker, somebody like that would never allow me to do something like that.
Speaker 1:The perfect segue into the type of professional advisors that an association decides to hire and surround themselves with can make or break a community. Okay, I have seen a lot of communities recently because again we're in crunch mode here. We've got looming deadlines in Florida for engineering and reserve funding, so I have seen boards want to almost hide behind their professional advisors and say you know, the attorney says we have to do that. I've actually seen a client write that we didn't tell you to do this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you probably, you probably been, you've probably been someone's excuse along the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, quoted and misquoted, I'm sure. I'm sure I have, because you don't need to hide behind counsel. You don't need to hide behind. You know well, with engineers you do. You don't want to substitute yourself for your engineer when it comes to life, safety or engineering. You let that professional lawyer told you to do something.
Speaker 1:It may be we as a board you've elected us and we've met We've relied on professional input from professional advisors and this is what we decided to do. But some boards do like to hide behind professional advisors and some do misquote those advisors. That gets into the danger territory. I hear what you're saying. That gets into the danger territory. I hear what you're saying. Also, the experienced professional advisors can help boards navigate these waters a little better, right? So if it's not a big deal, and they call, I'll give you a few examples. Bob, I've had clients want me to make a mountain out of a molehill and I refuse. Good for you. No reason you need to send this letter. Pick up the phone, talk to this person. If you still can't get anywhere, then we'll. Then we'll discuss your legal options. But you don't go to defcon one over something minor and so. But everybody's different, every law, as you know you're a fellow member of the bar. Some lawyers, they're going straight to defcon one yeah, I don't like, I don.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't like lawyers like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know if it's the bill.
Speaker 2:And I was never a lawyer like that.
Speaker 1:Right, nor am I. So there's a lot of times we as attorneys we can help steer this and we can help calm the waters right. And there's other times where if you're dealing with an attorney who wants to stir up trouble, they're going to ratchet it right up. And same thing with management companies. Management companies can also a very experienced manager or management company can tell a board look, you're kind of heading off the wrong path here. Here's what you need to do, here's what here's been our experience with this particular issue. And if they have questions, let me contact the attorney, let me see what the attorney says. Is, you know, really the best idea here? So professional advisors again can make a break For the self-managed communities where they don't have attorneys, they don't have managers and it's really just the people on the board who may be shooting from the hip.
Speaker 1:They don't have managers and it's really just the people on the board who may be shooting from the hip. That's where you can really wind up becoming a truly dysfunctional community. Nobody likes to go to board meetings. The board hates going to it. You've got to have security there because everybody's threatening each other. You can't get access to the books and records. You have some concerns about what's going on financially. You may be subject to special assessments. There may be deferred maintenance and repairs. I mean, that's the worst case scenario here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that sounds awful yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you have a good handle, Bob, on what your legal rights are as a Florida condominium owner?
Speaker 2:No, I don't. I would say I do not. I try to apply my experience and my legal training, but I have not chosen to, and I think this is something that I should do. I've not taken the time to really verse myself in all of that, and I think that's an important thing for unit owners to take on a responsibility like that. So that's maybe one that would be one suggestion that I would make to unit owners out there, and I also believe there's a bit of an impediment to that, and that is, you know, for a, for let's just say, an elderly, perhaps retired, non lawyer, to pick up these, these docs, and try to understand all of that, to understand their rights and what the obligations of the board are, and all of that, under Florida law is a challenge. I mean it's a challenge, is a challenge. I mean it's a challenge, and so I was kicking around the idea and you may tell me that such a thing already exists.
Speaker 2:Is there like a plain English recitation of relevant Florida statutes, relevant Florida law as it relates to the rights that a unit owner might have and the duties and obligations that these other owner might have and the duties and obligations that these other people might have like plain English, like something that someone can say here. Read this. This will give you a good idea of how all of this is supposed to work. If you want to go through all the documents, they're right over there and you can do that. But check this out, something like that would be great.
Speaker 1:We do. We do have that in Florida and I was going to ask you if you got it. There is a statutory requirement under Chapter 718, which is the Condominium Act in Florida which requires you to receive what's called a Q&A sheet, a question and answer sheet, and there's several questions on there. You know, what do I owe on my unit? Am I subject to a master association? Are there any use restrictions? And that's where they would say, yeah, you know, parking, guest parking. There may be leasing restrictions, so that form exists. It sounds like you didn't get one.
Speaker 2:Well, I might. I don't know whether I got that form per se. I did get a there's a little like a welcome booklet that probably had some or all of that, and I read it. That's probably what that was. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:welcome to where you're living here's the way the community works, that kind of a thing. So but forget about the governing documents, bob, because the developer's attorney, they all work off of the same basic form set of, you know, the declaration of condominium, the articles, the bylaws, pretty much routine standard set of developer documents and they're filled with legalese. And, by the way, when you've got association attorneys like me, you have a handful of us in the room reading the statute, reading the documents, we'll come up with various interpretations. Sure, so if we can't even agree on what these things mean and we've got the benefit of decades of understanding, decades of case law in Florida and the code and the arbitration cases, how can we expect average?
Speaker 1:unit owners and even board members to understand this. Now in Florida, given all that we're dealing with with our shared housing stock, board members now are subject to pretty robust educational requirements. Condo board members have to take four hours of educational training for board certification. They have to take an hour every year after that in between Our firm, to take an hour every year after that in between Our firm, the state, other firms. They put on these classes. I will tell you, in the classes we put on, the classes I teach, we do go through all the common stuff, common sense stuff.
Speaker 1:You and I have talked about common sense. Where is it gone? You know, don't make people wait until the end of a meeting. Let them address it as the agenda progresses. Things like communication channels, budgeting document, inspection requests, navigating disputes, all of those things. So we do have board members in Florida who have to attend training. Do you think it would help if the owners also had to attend some sort of classes where they could understand their rights and then also understand how to interface with the board? Perhaps Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure you can make it mandatory, but make it available to people 100%. That would be helpful, yeah, but again, if you know I would, I would say a few things to the unit owners which are based on common sense, which is things like get involved, speak up, ask questions, be pleasant, you know, and be curious and be engaged, and all of that was reciprocated by the other parties involved. I think that would go a long way to making all this a little more conducive to you know, a friendly environment. You know what I mean. But I think something like that for the benefit of unit owners would be great.
Speaker 1:This is even true, let's say, not even in our work life or dealing with your condominium. Let's just talk about dealing with our families. If you come out of the gate throwing haymakers and now you've got a problem, you can always escalate as you go, but once you come out hot, it's hard to cool. Now the other side entrenches and that's where I've seen owners who have legitimate complaints and they have legitimate concerns but because of the style they've used right out of the gate, the threats, the you know sometimes crazy conspiracy theories that are way off base the other side in trenches, off base, the other side in trenches. And I always say to myself if they only come out different, they can always escalate. You know, and we can talk about the rights.
Speaker 1:Florida has a lot of resources for owners. There's a lot of rights assigned completely to owners under the statutes that a lot of owners don't even know about. We've got a division that has a complaint bureau where you can file an administrative complaint. We have an ombudsman that you can contact. Of course you're dealing with more bureaucracy, but the complaint division I've seen many association members file complaints and they get to them and they do address them. But I don't recommend you can always hire an attorney to file for arbitration or go to mediation or go straight or go to litigation, depending on the nature of your dispute. But I don't recommend any of that until you first attended board meetings, you first try to go through the proper channels and do so in a respectful manner, and then you can always continue to escalate if you're getting nowhere. Where I think a lot of unit owners shoot themselves in the foot is they just come out hot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you see that here I think you know you're kind of preaching to the choir here I think that that approach that you're describing is incumbent upon unit owners, particularly given the reality that we live in this shared space and that we have a shared economic interest in this space as well. So, yeah, I mean that's good, reasonable, common sense advice and I've seen people, even in my short time living here, where people have been initially belligerent, aggressive, accusatory, all of these things, and of course that just creates resentment between two people who are talking to one another. That's never a good thing. So I hear you and I agree with you.
Speaker 1:Would you serve on the board in your?
Speaker 2:community. You know I have thought about that. Would I, Would I If drafted I will not serve? No, no, I easy for me to say that I really don't have an interest in that. I probably would if I were encouraged to do so. And you know there were, there were an opening and all of that. But I don't minimize the significance of the responsibility and I admire people who take that on. So, and it's a big time sink for people and not to mention a hassle in many respects. So I don't know, it wouldn't be my favorite thing to do, to tell you the truth.
Speaker 1:So I don't know I wrote a blog years ago and I used to get a lot of input. People love the topics. I wrote one post that got. That garnered me hate mail and that was my suggestion. It was kind of a tongue-in-cheek suggestion that we implement a jury duty style when it comes to condo boards, where if your number comes up, you're going to serve on the board. And people went crazy. A lot of the owners who do have complaints. One of their complaints is they can't get on the board, that this board has been in place forever, this board president has become a dictator and they can't get in. So that's sometimes. The frustration on the part of the owners is that they've been subject to the same governance style for decades because the same board continues to get in Anyhow. My suggestion of using a jury style system it didn't get a lot of likes.
Speaker 2:Let me put it that way that's kind of I can see why that's kind of I can see why that's kind of high risk. The truth you end up with like three jurors who shouldn't be jurors, right, that's not, and no one got to vote on them. It's just like a lottery ticket your turn. That's maybe not the best thing.
Speaker 1:And I understood at the outset of our conversation when you said you want to be treated like an owner Right of our conversation when you said you want to be treated like an owner. Right, you're an owner. It's not like you're an inmate in this facility. You chose to buy in this community. I'm sure you paid a decent price for your property, but the directors are. The board members are owners too. Why do you think there's a divide between? I mean, that's my question.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, first and foremost, they see their duties as a real, significant responsibility that they have to their community and they want to be sure that the property is being run in a way that's compliant, right and, you know, I guess, in a way that they would like it to be run, given that they're also so unit owners.
Speaker 2:But again, I think I said this earlier Too often people look at themselves as an enforcer of rules as opposed to a facilitator of, you know, common living, you know to make things go smoothly for people, and I think, if finding that balance, I would say, is not easy, but it's not unattainable by any stretch of the imagination, I think it takes a person who has a good perspective and exercises some good judgment and is a nice person. Not that not that the people where I live are are not nice because they are, but you know sometimes that balance is, is, is is lacking and people view themselves more as, like I said, you know, an enforcer of the rules, you know the compliance officer for the condo. That's no fun. I don't want to, I don't want to be on the receiving end of that. You know what I mean. It's like I just want to enjoy my space and my shared space and in a way that's, you know, kind of smooth and and and a little more easygoing. I guess I'd say it that way.
Speaker 1:What's the craziest rule, the most overbearing rule you think you've been subject to?
Speaker 2:Well, you're going to tell me that this is not so overbearing, and you're probably right. But I needed to have a repairman for an appliance come into my unit and repair my appliance. So I knew who the repairman was. He's like a one man shop with a truck, little businessman. And I called him and he was like sure, when would you like me to come? And I told him and we agreed that we would meet in the lobby and I would escort him up the elevator, walk down you know a short hallway into my unit. He grew up there. Well, I made the mistake, or somehow, mom.
Speaker 1:I know where you're going with this.
Speaker 2:Go ahead. The building, you know. Police, you know, got wind of what I was attempting to do and I was told I couldn't do that unless this gentleman was able to offer proof of insurance liability insurance, workers' comp insurance, auto insurance. The only thing he didn't have to provide was life insurance, you know, but you know, and of course he didn't have to provide was life insurance, you know, but, but you know and and and, of course he didn't have, he didn't have workers comp insurance. And he says to me I mentioned it, all of this to him he's like I don't, I don't have it.
Speaker 2:And we ended up working it out, but not without some consternation along the way. And you know, my thought about that is he was using the common. He walked in the front door of the building. He got on an elevator common element, common element got off the elevator, walked down a hallway common element. I let him in my place and that was it. What he does in my place is my business, right, but it but it, but it was just like you know. So now he's got to come back next Tuesday until he can figure out how to do the compliance and provide the certificate. And I was, I'm just like I understand why I do. I understand it, but it just struck me as really overbearing because I probably wrote that rule and I'm going to tell you why.
Speaker 1:Ok, the guy walks in the lobby. He trips, I know Now. He manages to scramble into the elevator On the way up. He punches somebody in the face before he gets off at your floor. He goes to your unit. He punches a hole in the common element pipe, which now floods five floors below.
Speaker 1:By the way, I once did have a plumber in the unit. All he was doing was he? All he was supposed to do was hang a fancy sink. So it's a hand up hang a fancy sink in the unit. It was a 10th floor unit, very upscale, sunny isles condo. He did. I think it was close to $500,000 in damage in the units below because these were all extremely expensive units. So to your point, I get your point. I probably wrote a rule like that because, again, what you're doing in your white box in your unit, it really can. What that guy does in there, it can impact the structural integrity of the building. We've had people drilling into the slab, doing work on the window, I mean doing all sorts of crazy stuff in these units. That's the balance, though. You see, you may have a great guy who was just coming to hang some wallpaper and do nothing that's going to impact, but your neighbor next door might be doing something entirely crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I kind of thought that that would be your reaction to my example, and so I do understand, I do. Nonetheless, it's still. I think my comment still holds. I mean, this person, for example, didn't have a hammer, didn't have a drill, didn't have a screwdriver, didn't have a drill, didn't have a screwdriver, didn't have a saw, didn't have a nail, didn't have any of that. I mean, it was like it wasn't hanging wallpaper, but it was like the next least invasive thing. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:You know, there's a case in Florida, a seminal case, that basically says your house is your castle. You are king of your fiefdom, unless you live in a shared ownership community and then you're basically a serf and you're subject to majority will. I mean, I do want to ask that question because, listen, you chose to live in a multifamily building. Is that because of there's really not that many other housing options out there that aren't inside the framework of a mandatory association?
Speaker 2:Well, there are plenty of single family units throughout South Florida, and so that really wasn't my motivation for wanting to live in a condominium. My motivation was I like to travel and I like to not worry about mowing the yard and I like to know that when I need a new roof, you know it'll be handled within the confines of the homeowners association. And it's like that. I close my door and I go away for a week or two weeks and when I come back, everything is exactly as it should be and I open my door and there I am, in my house. I didn't have to do a thing. That's why and I'm sure that's why most people live in condominiums. So that's why but again, there are tradeoffs, because I say to myself a little bit now, gee, if this were my house, I could leave that door open.
Speaker 2:I could, you know, I could invite my you know the guy who's hanging my wallpaper to come in at eight o'clock on a Friday night, if I wanted to. You could hang your beach towels on your railing. I could hang my beach towels on my railing, right, I could put plants out there. I wouldn't have to. Every time we get a hurricane warning, I wouldn't have to bring every pillow that's out there in all of that stuff. You know all of that, and if and if it, and if a chair blew through my window and my on my back porch, well that's my, that's my responsibility, whereas now they put the fear of God into you, of course, you what all the rules say, and we'll be watching, kind of a thing, and that's anyway. You know, I think, I think we've, we've highlighted the like this tension that I, that I that I talk about, that's a very, very real thing.
Speaker 1:The point about turnkey I will just say this because this has been kind of a running theme on the podcast as we try to unpack all the different new obligations related to life in a Florida condominium and the increased assessments. People who bought in condos Bob coastal condos in the 50s, 60s, 70s they also thought it was a turnkey lifestyle, right, but what they weren't thinking about was all the costs that went into maintaining these buildings, particularly in a geographically vulnerable area like South Florida, frankly, anywhere along the Florida coastline. So it's really not as turnkey it also is. You know, I don't know if you love the color of your building right now might not be that color in four years if the majority of the people decide they want to make it something that you don't love. So it is a trade-off, but I do want to thank you so much for giving your perspective. Do you have any last words for people who are listening to this episode and nodding along and saying that I'm having a similar experience in my condo?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would just say hang in there, be involved, ask questions, be respectful and cordial to not only your neighbors but to those who are in charge of running your home. And, on balance, it's certainly a good way to live. And I'll end with something I started with, which is that I'm impressed that so many people, in such a compressed space, can live with great respect and comedy amongst one another, and that there aren't more people like doing bad things. So that's, that's a good thing. On balance, it's a good. It's a good, it's a good arrangement.
Speaker 1:Well, Bob, I want to thank you and contact me when you're on your board, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I will. Thanks for your time. It's very nice to be with you, take care.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to follow and rate us on your favorite podcast platform, or visit TakeItToTheBoardcom for more ways to connect.