Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger
Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger
Smart Hiring — Vetting Lawyers to Find The Perfect Legal Partner with Becker’s Tana Bucca
Choosing the right attorney for your community association is about much more than comparing hourly rates. In this episode of Take It To The Board, host Donna DiMaggio Berger sits down with Tana Bucca, Vice Chair of Becker’s Community Association practice in New Jersey, to explore what boards should really look for when hiring legal counsel.
Donna and Tana discuss why specialized experience in community association law often saves time and money, how firm size and bandwidth can impact service—particularly for smaller associations—and why rushed “cattle call” interviews rarely lead to the right fit for either side. Instead, thoughtful conversations that go beyond canned responses are the key to finding true compatibility.
This episode also covers red flags that some association attorneys and vendors overlook in their zeal to sign a new client. Tune in and learn how to avoid common pitfalls and ask the right questions during your interview. This episode offers practical insights for board members, managers, attorneys and other vendors alike—emphasizing that the most successful attorney-client relationships are built on trust, expertise, and respect.
Conversation Highlights:
- The importance of credentials like Board Certification in Condominium & Planned Development Law or membership in organizations like CCAL and why more boards don’t ask about them
- Questions boards should ask in an initial interview to reveal the most useful information about a lawyer’s style, competence, and approach
- The importance of responsiveness, educational outreach, litigation philosophy, or experience with regulators and legislators
- Red flags attorneys see in potential client associations that may signal problems ahead
- How both sides can determine if there’s a genuine “fit” during that first consultation
- When it is appropriate for a board to terminate legal counsel
- When lawyers should terminate a client
- The number one ingredient required for a productive attorney-client relationship
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Hi everyone. I'm attorney Donna DiMaggio-Berger and this is Take it to the Board where we speak condo and HOA. When volunteer boards go looking for legal representation, too often the first and sometimes the only question asked is what's your hourly rate? But the truth is the cost of legal services is only one piece of the puzzle and very often hourly rates are not the most reliable yardstick when measuring value. Choosing the right lawyer for your condominium cooperative or homeowners association requires the same diligence you'd use in selecting an association manager, an engineer or an auditor. It's about experience, credentials, communication style and whether your association and the attorney are truly a good fit.
Speaker 1:In today's episode, my partner Tana Bucca and I are going to dive into the issue of how boards can become smarter consumers of legal services. Tana is a shareholder and vice chair of Becker's New Jersey Condominium Cooperative and HOA practice. Tana and I are going to discuss the best way to vet lawyers and law firms, the most useful questions to ask how a board can recognize red flags when interviewing a lawyer, when it's time to terminate the relationship and how boards can leave the door open for a possible return in the future. We're also going to explore the other side of the table how lawyers should be assessing potential clients and why ignoring warning signs in the quest for new business can often lead to long-term headaches for everyone involved. These same principles can certainly apply to other professionals and vendors in the community association industry. So, whether you're a board member, a manager or an attorney yourself, our conversation will hopefully give you new insights into building and maintaining a successful relationship with community association clients. So with that, tana, welcome to Take it to the Board.
Speaker 2:Hi Donna, so great to be here. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:We haven't done this topic, tana, and I know you and I we talked a little bit before we got started that this is a really interesting topic and I think so many of our listeners whether again, depending on the side of the aisle they're on, whether they're looking to hire lawyers or they're lawyers looking to be hired I think we're going to cover some important territory. So let's start out. What should boards and managers really be looking for when hiring legal counsel? I mentioned hourly rate, tana, because often that's right up there in terms of the first five minutes and the questions. What really should boards be looking for?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, so often I find that boards are really focused on what is your hourly rate, what is the hourly rate? And, of course, we can give them our hourly rate. But I think one of the most important things for a board to focus on aside from the hourly rate, because that's also important is to ensure who you're hiring is really well-versed and experienced in this particular area of law, this community association area of law. Sure, you can find firms with a lower hourly rate, but you don't really want to be paying an attorney to learn the law. Wouldn't you rather hire someone with that experience in the area of law that you are seeking to suit your needs? That's going to save you money in the long run.
Speaker 1:Has a potential client, Tana, ever asked to see a sample of your writing before hiring you, and have they ever asked you what your preferred communication style is? In other words, do you send out mostly email opinions? Do you do more formal written opinions? I'll tell you from my experience I've never had a client ask for a sample of writing, but I think it's really crucial because what we do this is such a personal relationship, working with volunteer board members and their association managers. I think communication style is incredibly important. What's your experience?
Speaker 2:So I haven't had anyone ever ask me for a writing sample. I have had potential clients ask me for a sample of our invoice, but not for a writing sample.
Speaker 1:That goes without saying, right?
Speaker 2:Yes, but I do think it's such an important question to ask what is your style and really to get into a conversation, because one of the biggest complaints we hear when we have people coming to the firm looking to hire Becker is I'm leaving the attorney I'm with because they don't communicate with me, they don't respond to me, they have poor communication skills and they're not getting back to me, and so I think that is a really critical question to ask how do you communicate with your clients? Do you pick up the phone and call them? Are you accessible by phone? Do you follow that up with a written email communication? What can I expect when I receive an email communication from you?
Speaker 1:It's good to have an actual policy, don't you think this is my policy?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Sometimes we go on vacation, Sometimes we're out at a seminar and we can't get back to someone right away. Another good question to be asking the prospective law firm is do you work with anyone else? Is there bandwidth at your firm? So if you're not available to get back to me and there's an emergent need, can I reach out to someone else at your firm and will they be able to get back to me?
Speaker 1:That's a really good point. I know for some of our solo practitioners who may be listening to this podcast episode, that can be a challenge, particularly if you've got an association where you've been doing one thing let's say you've been handling mostly their collection work but now something else has popped up. It's commercial litigation or they need an amendment. You know how it is with association clients. Sometimes everything's an emergency. I like to say you know, thinking about that insurance policy, it may feel like an emergency but it may not be a true emergency. So for our smaller shops, you're right, that's a really great question. Will you have the bandwidth? It's not a complete hindrance to smaller firms representing associations, but I think it's something that they should address.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's also a big complaint that we hear from people coming to our firm, and so it's important you know, at least in terms of how we communicate, who we are in these interviews with the potential clients is you know we talk about how many attorneys we have at our firm. We don't just interview by ourselves, we bring other attorneys with us so they can meet our team. It's critical because at Becker here we are a team, we move as a team, and so we want our potential clients to understand that we are a team and to meet the other attorneys in our firm.
Speaker 1:What about cell phones? Do you have clients now asking can I have your cell number? What's your philosophy on that? Should a client ask hey, if we hire you, can we get your cell? Can we text you incessantly, tana, at all hours of the day and night?
Speaker 2:I have my cell phone number on my business card, so potential clients get my cell phone number up front. But I do have a policy, and we do have a firm-wide policy in terms of texting, that we don't render legal opinions via text message. In today's day and age, people text and so if they want to text me and say, hey, can you have a call with me at 3 pm, sure, that's perfect for a text. I can shoot back yes, I can have a call with you at 3 pm. But if they're asking me for a substantive legal opinion in a text message and I communicate this on the interview, I'm not going to respond to you in text message. I'll take your message, I'll put it into an email and then I'll respond to you that way.
Speaker 1:I have the same policy. Can you explain why that's our policy?
Speaker 2:Well, it's our policy because, number one, we want to ensure that we have a record of all of the information that we transcribed. That we transcribed and while we can pull our text message chains, it's much easier to have an email you know readily available that we could save to our system, and we can. Anyone else in the firm can access that email and see what advice we had rendered with respect to the particular issue.
Speaker 1:And I also think most people don't want to turn over their phone for discovery on text messages. That's also a good point Thank you. Well, you know, I think, what we're talking about across the board, from what's your style, what's your policy on responsiveness, can I reach you? Do you have the bandwidth to support all our needs? I think this is an opportunity that's new client interview to set reasonable expectations. Absolutely, I think setting expectations is opportunity. That's new client interview to set reasonable expectations Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think setting expectations is, you know, key. When people walk into a relationship, it's new and shiny, but if you set the ground rules in terms of what you can expect from our firm and what we should expect from the client, then that lays out the path for a positive relationship in the future.
Speaker 1:Have you ever been to one of those like to call them cattle calls where a board has set up? Okay, tana, you've got 1130, we're going to talk to you for 20 minutes and you know that they've got five other firms or lawyers that they're talking to one after the other. Okay, I want to talk to you about these dog and pony shows. First of all, what do you think? Go first or go last, or in the?
Speaker 2:middle, I like to go last because I think you can leave a lasting impression.
Speaker 2:I also think that if there are some extra questions, there's not pressure for you to get off the line.
Speaker 2:First of all, I don't like the cattle call because there's time constraints, there's pressure on both sides, right, there's pressure on us to get out all the information we need to get out, and so much of that then turns into a canned answer and you really can't be genuine and authentic when you're trying to rush Instead of having a conversation where you don't feel pressured that you need to get off the phone in the next five minutes or that you need to get off the Zoom in the next five minutes.
Speaker 2:And really, from the client's perspective and I know boards are under stress, they're volunteers, they have limited amount of time, they don't have, you know, endless hours throughout the day, and so sometimes the cattle call can't be avoided. But for all of those boards that are looking for a lasting relationship with their law firm, they should really take the time, because it is an investment in their future. They should take that time to get to know the attorney that they're hiring, the law firm that they're hiring, so they can ask these questions and have a genuine conversation and really understand, get a sense of who that attorney is, how the firm works and how that relationship will look in the future.
Speaker 1:I agree with you. I think that boards I know there's time constraints, but I think they would be better served setting up one interview a day with their potential legal candidates, because, just as you said, I approach it the same way and I know most, if not all, of our colleagues do as well which is that's your opportunity to problem solve with the board. You're not giving them legal advice in advance, but you are giving them a glimpse of what it would be like to work with TANF on this issue. And how can you do that in 20 minutes, right when somebody else you know we've got the next candidate waiting?
Speaker 2:We've got the next person and then it's also hard to keep track of what did that person say? Did that person say it? Did the other person say it?
Speaker 1:So my fear with going last is board member fatigue. That would be my only if it's been a long day and they all want to get home and they want to be done with it going last. But then again, going first has its disadvantages as well. I don't know. I think it's better, if you can, to not engage in the cattle call and just say I can't make that cattle call. Can we meet another day and talk? Or, like you said, with the team approach, it's nice to have them come in and meet the entire team. You know, have the paralegal pop in, have the department assistant pop in, have the you know the person dealing with collections or litigation or any of these other experts that you can bring to bear if they're experiencing those issues, just so they know exactly who's handling their matter. And that's something you can't really do if you're doing a 20-minute cattle call.
Speaker 2:You can't. It's difficult with one, if not two, people, and so they really don't have the opportunity to meet your team.
Speaker 1:So I know you have a lot of really strong relationships with managers. What's the manager's role, Tana, in setting up these kind of interviews? I mean, is there a conversation ahead of time? Is there a follow-up conversation? What do you think the manager's role is in vetting attorneys?
Speaker 2:or a follow-up conversation. What do you think the manager's role is in vetting attorneys? Well, I think, first of all, I like it when I get an RFP from a manager where they explain exactly what their client is looking for. But I don't stop at the RFP. If I get the RFP, I read it line by line and I want to follow all instructions. But then I want to pick up the phone and have a conversation with the manager. I ask questions, I try to follow all instructions, but then I want to pick up the phone and have a conversation with the manager.
Speaker 2:I ask questions, I try to gather intelligence before I go into the interview. What is the board looking for? Why did the prior relationship fail? Just so I can get a sense from my standpoint, so I can understand if we're the right fit for that client and that if we can fill those needs that the client is seeking. So I always pick up the phone and I always try to have a conversation with the manager and of course, it's always helpful when the manager answers and gives us genuine, authentic answers to those questions, so you know we can really understand what they're looking for. Likewise, I think it's important if the attorney doesn't reach out. I think it's important, if the attorney doesn't reach out, I think it's important for the manager to reach out and say look, here's what they're looking for. And why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself and, you know, ask the preliminary interview questions so that they can prepare their board for the interview.
Speaker 1:So we're in a safe space here. I'm going to ask you some, spill the tea a little bit. Have you ever had a situation where you knew the manager? It wasn't a manager you had a relationship with, but you know this manager has a pretty tight relationship with a competitor. Have you ever had a situation like that where you've still been able to overcome that because you just dazzled the board?
Speaker 2:Yes, I have had that situation happen and you know what the real way to do that is to show who your team is. I have had that situation happen where I knew that the manager had a relationship with my competitor. I knew that I was interviewing against this competitor. I had a good sense that I wasn't going to get the client, but she gave me the intelligence that I asked for, so that was a positive. I was able to bring my team in and we just connected with the board and I knew we were the right fit for that client.
Speaker 1:And you didn't give up ahead of time. That's right. I think that's the key. Listen, we've all sort of gone in and had the cards stacked against us, but it's not a foregone conclusion. It depends on the board and what you're saying, and even that manager may have walked out and gone. Yep, tana's the right person for this.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, when you get the call after the interview that says you nailed it.
Speaker 1:Well, you know it's interesting because we both like this kind of situation where we go in, I don't know it's stirring our competitive juices or what have you, but can you tell when you're in the?
Speaker 2:zone? Yes, absolutely, I think you can, and you can also tell when you're not in the zone Right.
Speaker 1:So tell us both experiences. You can tell when you're connecting. Let's say it's a three-member board. You're connecting with two, you're not connecting with one. What do you do? Do you change? Do you focus more on the one you're not connecting with, or are you focusing on the two and saying well, I hope the third comes along?
Speaker 2:So in that situation here's what I do If I'm connecting with two and I know that I'm not connecting with one, I will look at the two that I'm connecting with and say you know what, give me an opportunity to come back with my partner. So-and-so, he does litigation, I want you to meet him. And so oftentimes if I can bring someone else to fill that gap, to get that connection where I'm not connecting with the person, but I could bring someone else in to connect with that person, that really helps close the loop on that.
Speaker 1:The more people you have there you're right the more opportunity that, even if you're not connecting with one of the board members or, let's say, the manager, a member of your team might. Yes, so that's why I, just like you, I'm a huge proponent of the team approach when it comes to an initial client interview, because we can't be all things to all people, and when you're in the zone and you've got all three, it's a really good feeling because you can imagine what it'll be like to work with that client.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And if you're not connecting with anybody, do you speed up and try to book it out of there? Obviously, you try your best. I think you know one of the worst situations is when you're in an interview and they're not asking you any questions, and so you have to sort of be the conversationalist. You have to lead the conversation, which can also turn out to be very good, and that's when I start asking questions of the board, and so sometimes they get uncomfortable, they don't want to talk, and so that's, you know, not good Asking questions about the community, about issues they've experienced. That gives me, then, an opportunity to show them how I would respond to questions coming to me, to give them a sense of who I am and what kind of attorney I am.
Speaker 1:Do you spend any time talking about your credentials or do you say you know this is always a tough one? I mean, do people care if you're board certified, a fellow in the College of Community Association lawyers? Do they know what these credentials mean? Do you spend time talking about it or do you just send them your bio?
Speaker 2:I try to keep that to a minimum. When I open the conversation, of course they're all expecting the canned, you know summary of who I am and who the firm is, but of course they've already gotten that before I've gotten to the interview, and so I try to keep that to a minimum one minute, two minutes max. And then I launch right into. You know, tell me a little bit about you, tell me about the issues that you're experiencing right now, and sometimes I'll have that information going into the interview if the manager gives me that information, and I will immediately turn the conversation to that.
Speaker 1:What about connecting at the outset, on a personal level, where you grew up, where you went to school, whether or not you have kids? Hey, by the way, for me it's easy with the name, like DiMaggio, I always get asked are you related? Are you a baseball fan? It's like a really nice opener. But do you connect on a personal level at all?
Speaker 2:I try to. If I have some personal information, I try to. I also try to gather some intelligence about the community. You know, is it a new community? I look at pictures of the homes. If there's a clubhouse, I try to get you know some information about that so I can talk to them about. You know what I've seen on the internet. You know if the town is known for something so I talk about that. What experience I've had in that area, what other communities I represent in that area? I think a personal connection helps.
Speaker 1:But it's certainly going to be expertise and the good fit in terms of representation. That's going to carry the day. But I will tell you that I've been in initial interviews where I find out that two of the three board members are from Southern California and my daughter lives in LA. So we're having a conversation about did you go to that new museum? Have you been to that? You know, it's kind of it kind of sets the stage and it lets them get to know you a little bit more and you get to know them a little bit more. So we can't really talk about acquiring new clients without talking about competition. Right, we like to think we don't have any competition, but the reality is there's a lot of competition out there for community association representation. I also think, tana, that there's more than enough associations out there that it always dismays me when I see association counsel engaging in very negative chatter when they're trying to get a client right. I just don't think it's professional and I don't think it's necessary. But I know we've both seen it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I do not like to turn the interview to negative talk. It takes away time for me talking about who we are as a firm, and so if a potential client starts to make a negative comment about the firm that they're dealing with or about another law firm that's one of our competitors, I immediately try to steer the conversation away from that. Gracefully, without stepping on anyone's toes, I'll listen to what they have to say and just say well, let me tell you a little bit about our firm and what we do.
Speaker 1:And you know it's possible, they could be testing you to see if you'll take the bait.
Speaker 2:You don't know, we don't know, and you're right, donna, it is unprofessional and we don't talk about our competitors negatively and we hope the same goes for our competitors. But we all know that it exists and so we just try to avoid those sort of conversations.
Speaker 1:So I couldn't agree more. Let me give you another little scenario. You do know the manager. You're the third attorney being interviewed. One of the first two has really not spoken well of your firm. Manager kind of gives you a heads up about some of the points that were raised. Do you address it? Do you ignore it? What do you think?
Speaker 2:I don't think you would. You have to address the comments that they've made, but you don't address them directly. So you have to tell them about your firm and clarify any misinformation that they've received from one of your competitors.
Speaker 1:So let's say, the competitor said Tana's great, but she's Rolls Royce and you don't need Rolls Royce figures. So that what you're saying is you go in there and you will explain the different yardsticks for measuring value and, by the way, you've got a big team. So it might not be your outwardly rate, it might be a junior partner, it might be an associate. Is that how you would approach it?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I would also talk about the experience that we have that you're not paying us to get up to speed on the law. So we do have varying rates. We do have different team members. I'm not necessarily doing all the work on someone's file. We work as a team.
Speaker 1:Okay. So let's say they love you, they want to hire you on the spot. You're, on the other hand, are not so sure about them. What are some of the red flags that you've seen come up in interviews? And I will tell you that some smaller shops may not have the luxury of turning away work. They feel like they have to take everything that comes through the door. But we know doing this as long as we've done it that there are issues if, sometimes, if you take on a client and you've ignored red flags, that can come back to haunt you.
Speaker 2:Yes, there's two major red flags that I see in interviews. And hopefully you're connecting with the client and everything's clicking and you think they're great and they think you're great, but that doesn't always happen, and so if I see someone talking about themselves and their issues and how they want to accomplish something for themselves, that's a major red flag for me. They're board members, they're fiduciaries, they're trustees of the corporation and they have to be focused on the interests of the corporation, not their own interests. And so I immediately start talking about the fact that we do education seminars for board members. We talk to board members about their fiduciary responsibilities.
Speaker 2:You know, obviously you don't want to get into a fight with anybody on an interview, but if somebody says something that's wrong, you want to clarify and correct that. I've also had the experience of being in an interview where they're telling me something negative about their attorney, some advice that their attorney gave them, and actually when I hear the advice, it's not incorrect, and so it's incumbent upon me to let them know. Well, actually I don't disagree with your attorney, and here's why. And then I explain why I don't disagree with their attorney, and so you can tell by the response that you get if it's going to work, if you've turned their head and changed their mind, perhaps, on what the issue was. But if it's not a fit for the firm, then it's not a fit.
Speaker 1:Are you able to kind of discern board dysfunction during some of these interviews? I mean, you can pick up the vibes. This is where an in-person meeting is even better than Zoom, because you can feel the energy in the room. But let's say you are in the room and you are picking up on those vibes.
Speaker 2:So hopefully you had that information going into the interview already. The manager gave you a heads up that. But if you don't have that information and you're picking up on those negative vibes, you don't want to engage in the debate between the two parties. You want to try and connect as much as you can get out the information about who you are, what the firm is. But if there is a deep divide amongst the board that's going to be a problem for the future representation of the community.
Speaker 1:This is where setting reasonable expectations comes in.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Say, look, we'll take on this representation. But given where you're at as a board right now and the dysfunction you're experiencing, we've got to tell you that this. You know, we may not be able to accomplish all your goals if you can't agree amongst yourself what those goals should be. So let's talk about being the second, almost like the new wife living with the ex-wife situation. So they're coming in, they've got, they're hiring us for maybe a particular litigation matter, but they're hanging on to their corporate counsel elsewhere. Or they want us to be general corporate and they've got collections elsewhere. How important do you think it is, or how challenging is it, if we don't have everything under one umbrella? And now you're dealing with what we're doing and a competitor firm handling another piece of the puzzle?
Speaker 2:Well, I do think it's challenging and I don't think it's the most efficient means of representation to split up the representation amongst several firms, especially if one firm can handle all of the representation. But if the client does choose to have Becker and another firm, we do everything we can to work with that firm for the benefit of the client. So giving important information, ensuring that the manager release information regarding perhaps something we're working on to the other firm that is important, and also working with that other firm, going forward for the best interest of a client.
Speaker 1:So that's a perfect segue into when do you have to say goodbye to a client. I'm going to tack on to what you just talked about, because I had a client years ago where, unbeknownst to me, they had us as corporate counsel and another firm as corporate counsel and they would bounce, they would toggle back and forth on opinion letters. So if they didn't like what our opinion was, they went to the other firm for an opinion and back and forth, and it just became problematic because you know, in terms of knowing what is important to our client but also knowing that they're following the advice we're giving them, it's important from a risk management standpoint. So in that case I did have to say goodbye to that client. What do you think? Tana are some of the flashpoints where you do have to say goodbye.
Speaker 2:Well, I think you know a key piece, the most critical piece of a relationship between an attorney and a client is trust, and if your client doesn't trust you or you don't trust your client, you're going to have a breakdown in terms of the relationship and so it's not good for either side. And you know, of course, at the outset we want to make sure that our clients are following our advice and counsel, and if they're doing something that's certainly detrimental to the community, then at that point I think it is time to say goodbye. But I think it's really important to have the conversation about trust. Why do you have two firms representing you as general counsel? Is it because there's a divide on the board and you can't make a decision? Is it because you don't necessarily trust my opinion? And then having an open and honest conversation about that, because trust is really critical in terms of the attorney-client relationship.
Speaker 1:I agree, and it's funny you use the word trust, I use the word respect. I think they go hand in hand. They go hand in hand, but what erodes trust and respect in the relationship? What do you think erodes it?
Speaker 2:I think number one being unresponsive from the attorney's standpoint. If the attorney is unresponsive from the client's standpoint, if the client can't make a decision, if the client is unresponsive to you, if they're not engaged, if they're not focusing on your advice, if you're talking to them on the phone and you're sending them emails but they're still not understanding it, that erodes trust and vice versa. If there's a breakdown in communication, I think what about not paying you?
Speaker 1:Well, that's always a problem. They love you, but they're not going to pay you.
Speaker 2:If that happens, then, yes, that erodes trust. Yes, and respect and respect, yes.
Speaker 1:Well, it is. Listen, it is a very personal relationship. What's your longest running relationship with a community?
Speaker 2:I've had a client. It was my first client and I've had them for over 20 years now.
Speaker 1:That's incredible, and you've seen boards change hands over those two decades.
Speaker 2:Seen boards change hands. Over those two decades and to your point, the board continued to have respect and trust in my advice.
Speaker 1:That feels good doesn't it?
Speaker 2:It does, it really does, and I think that's another good point. I think it's important for and I always welcome this prospective clients to talk to our references because they can hear from us, they can have a conversation with us, they can click with us. But I think it's important for them to talk to who else we work with.
Speaker 1:We didn't even mention that. You're right. I mean, when we talk about vetting attorneys look, you can go to the bar website. Make sure that this attorney has not been subject to discipline or, if they have, what's the status of that disciplinary action? But references, you're absolutely right to talk to clients that we've been serving for a long time and get some you know inside information of what it's like to work with you and it's not just clients, right, it's also managers.
Speaker 2:What do other managers think about us? What does the management company think about us? Do they work with us? Do they refer business to us? That's important.
Speaker 1:This is going to sound like a ghoulish question, but have you ever gone to a funeral for one of your directors in one of these communities, unfortunately, I have.
Speaker 2:Over the years, you get to know people. That's why I asked the question.
Speaker 1:Not to be ghoulish, but because I've had really longstanding relationships with communities same thing to two and a half decades and you do lose people. We lost some people during the pandemic as well.
Speaker 2:Very sad, I know, and you know it's always very sad, but that is a benchmark of the trust and respect that you have. You know that you grow over the years and you maintain, and so it's always very sad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but we're there for them in the good times and the bad times, that's right. What's your favorite type of client?
Speaker 2:I love clients that welcome me in to come and meet with them. I love to meet with people in person. So Zoom is great it's, you know, I think it's been very good, but you really can't get a sense of people unless you meet with them in person. So I always love to go and meet with people in person. Of course, I love my active adult communities, but I also we have some beautiful communities, beautiful, beautiful active adult communities, but beautiful high rises in the Gold Coast communities, on the in the Jersey Shore area, and so I love to get out and see you know where my clients live, what the infrastructure looks like. Meet with the board members.
Speaker 1:You're a people person, it really helps in this business. Do you live in a condo or an HOA?
Speaker 2:I live in an HOA, yes. Do you ever? Do you live in a condo or an HOA? I live in an HOA, yes.
Speaker 1:Do you ever see yourself living in a condo or a co-op Perhaps?
Speaker 2:Perhaps you never know what the future brings.
Speaker 1:You never know. You never know. You're young yet, so you may not be downsizing. This may be decades away for you. Okay, so, you're a very positive person, but I have to ask you what's your least favorite type of client?
Speaker 2:Two least favorite types of clients One where the board is dysfunctional and always fighting. That is very frustrating. Number one and toxic.
Speaker 1:It does feel toxic when you walk away from that.
Speaker 2:Yes, it absolutely is, and you also feel bad because you can't bring it together. It's not a problem with the community, it's, yes, it absolutely is, and you also feel bad because you can't bring it together. It's not a problem with the community, it's a people problem, and so those are sometimes often the most difficult problems, and you might not have a board that's not all on the same page, but they're not on the page of the community. They're not looking for out for the community's interests, they're looking out for their own interests, and so that's also very toxic.
Speaker 1:So I have to ask you what do you think is the number one ingredient, in your opinion, that's required for a productive attorney-client relationship?
Speaker 2:I said it before, I'm going to say it again and I'll use your word as well trust and respect.
Speaker 1:I agree. You know we have a lot of managers listening to this, so it's the same thing for them in terms of being a good fit for a community. We've seen how things can go completely off the tracks when you just don't have a good fit between the manager and the board or the manager and the community members. Sometimes we've seen our management you know our management professionals subjected to horrific abuse and harassment by members. What do you say to them? I've told managers myself hey, maybe you should seek a transfer, Just get a better fit, because not the best interest of their mental health to continue in a work environment like that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, I think when I hear from managers and they say, listen, I'm gonna bring you in and I really need you to back me up. I've been telling the board they need to do this, they need to do that, I really need you to come in here and back me up. I mean, of course we're gonna do that if what they're advising is correct and for the most part it always is. But yeah, I mean, at some point if the relationship is so bad and it's just not working, it's just not a good fit. Hopefully they're with a reputable management company that can make that switch out and the new person will treat with a little bit more respect. That's another good point if they have a breakdown in their relationship with their management.
Speaker 1:You know I've had managers. Tell me, donna, I'm the sixth manager in two years in this building, and so you know some of what we've talked about today in terms of kind of knowing what you're getting into. It really applies across the board. This applies to vendors as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. We all know there are some communities out there that go through vendors, professionals, management companies, you know and they can't even get any more to come in. They get a reputation for themselves and sometimes they're proud of that and that's not a good thing. But that's actually you bring up a good point, donna. I think that's one good question to ask when you're asking about, you know, trying to get intelligence before the interview. You know, how long have you been managing the site? How long have they been with their landscaping company? How long have they been with their maintenance company? Have they used the same accountant? Are they, you know, switching over? Because you can learn a lot about a community by learning about you know whether they stick with their vendors and professionals.
Speaker 1:And it's easy enough for us to check the civil court docket to see how litigious the association has been. That's right, that's a good point. So, tana, any last thoughts for our listeners on this topic.
Speaker 2:I think it's something that we need to start talking about more. I think so often, boards just want to rush and get into a relationship so they can get you know, take this off their plate and move on to the next problem. But I think it's a conversation that really needs to be had. But I think it's a conversation that really needs to be had. They really need to take a little bit of time and think when they're hiring their legal, their law firm and other professionals, because it is an investment. That time is an investment in the future and, from our perspective, I think we also need to take some time before we go into an interview to really look into the community, learn about the board, learn about the community, learn about the manager, so we know what we're walking into.
Speaker 1:Dana, thanks so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, donna, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to follow and rate us on your favorite podcast platform, or visit TakeItToTheBoardcom for more ways to connect.