Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger
Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger
Mind Your Manners: Restoring Respect in Condo, Cooperative and HOA Communities
What if the secret to calmer board meetings, friendlier hallways, and fewer violation letters is simpler than passing another rule? In this episode of Take It To The Board, host Donna DiMaggio Berger invites nationally recognized etiquette consultant and author Jodi R.R. Smith to unpack how “etiquette is the younger sibling of the law” and why civility is a practical and effective leadership tool for community associations. From trash cans set out too early to pickleball at midnight, Donna and Jodi translate everyday friction into neighborly fixes that work in real life.
Donna and Jodi walk through a proven communication playbook for big projects like concrete restoration and roof replacements: communicate early and often, explain the process in understandable terms, invite questions before votes, and host town halls. You’ll learn how to structure meetings without turning rules into a weapon, why your strongest communicator should tackle major announcements, and how to take heated online threads offline into productive.
Donna and Jodi share clear guidance on shared spaces and pets—noise, waste, elevator etiquette, and the crucial distinction between service animals and emotional support animals. They also cover neurodiversity and cultural cues, showing how to adapt with kindness: narrate your intentions, choose the right medium for the message, and use asynchronous options when needed. Even travel gets a civility upgrade, with practical tips for surviving cramped flights.
Along the way, they revive two classic habits that still matter: RSVP promptly and send real thank‑you notes. Courtesy isn’t performative or old‑fashioned—it’s a scalable, repeatable method for reducing conflict, protecting and enhancing community value, and making shared living spaces more comfortable. If you’re a board member, manager, or resident who wants fewer blowups and better outcomes, this conversation is your field guide to civility.
Conversation Highlights:
- Why etiquette still matters in an age that celebrates bluntness and “keeping it real.
- Practical meeting manners: How board and membership meetings can stay civil and productive
- Respectful communication during sales or rental screenings — for both interviewers and applicants
- Balancing ESA (Emotional Support Animal) rights with neighborly consideration
- Guest etiquette in “55 and over” communities — what visiting families should know
- Navigating the gray areas of shared amenities like gyms, pools, and clubhouses
- Pickleball diplomacy: showing courtesy when games go late or lights stay on
- Texting with tact — the essential “dos and don’ts” of modern communication
- When to overlook someone’s bad manners vs. when (and how) to gently correct them
- The one universal bad habit Jodi would fix with a magic wand
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Hi everyone, I'm Attorney Donna DiMaggio Berger, and this is Take It to the Board, where we speak condo and HOA. Ever wonder why your neighbor thinks pickleball at midnight is acceptable, or why people treat airplanes like their living rooms? Is an unanswered text or email a non-issue or a sign of something bigger? What does allowing your dog to roam around off-leash or parking permanently in a guest spot say about you? My guest today, Jody R.R. Smith, says etiquette is the younger sibling of the law, the code of behavior that helps neighbors, board members, and residents treat one another with respect, even when the statutes are silent. Jody is a nationally recognized etiquette consultant, speaker, and the author of From Clueless to Class Act: Manners for the Modern Woman and Manners for the Modern Man. The community association lifestyle means sharing space, sharing resources, and sometimes sharing frustrations. The law gives us rules for governance, budgets, and elections, but what about the day-to-day interactions that can make or break community life? That's where etiquette steps in. From how to behave at a board meeting to the right way to share amenities like the gym or pickleball courts to surviving airplane travel with your dignity intact, Jodi has advice that applies directly to community association living and being human in general. So with that, Jody, welcome to take it to the board. Thank you so much for having me. You know, we've never done this topic. And when you first said to me that etiquette is the younger sibling of the law, that really resonated with me. Because you know what I do? I'm a community association attorney. I think you actually got on my radar because you attended a civility seminar that my partner Allison Hertz had put on. And I think you reached out to her and said, Hey, I really like what you were saying about civility. Let me tell you what I do, which was your etiquette background. So can you expand a little bit on that? That you say etiquette is the younger sibling of the law.
SPEAKER_00:So what happens is etiquette is all about guidelines of behavior, how people interact with each other, whether that's in person, over the phone, over the computer, on text. However, one human being is sending out a message to another human being. And what happens, let's use an HOA as an example, because that's an easy one. Somebody new moves in, and your trash day is on Friday, and they start pulling out their bin on Wednesday. And there's reasons why we don't want bins on Wednesday. Sometimes it could get hit by a landscaper truck, it attracts down here in Florida. There are lots of critters out there. You put out your garbage too early, it starts attracting the rodents and other critters. And so the response for a lot of people is immediately to call the office or to call somebody. But there's nothing wrong with going over, knocking on the door, introducing yourself, welcoming them to the community and saying, hey, listen, I don't know where you move from, but down here, our garbage days on Friday, and you really need to put it out as close to the pickup time as possible. Let them know. Presume positive intent. Don't presume that they're doing it to be mean or because they like rats in their garbage. So have that personal conversation. Then once you've had that conversation, if they're still putting out their trash days and days early, the next step is to call the office and have the office take care of it. And maybe the office gives them a call or sends them a copy of what the guidelines are in the HOA documents. And then if they're consistently doing it, then the HOA attorneys get involved. But we don't, I love attorneys. I'm very happy that you're here. But there's a lot of things that as individuals that we can handle on that low-key basis.
SPEAKER_02:I love that you said that you can handle these things on an individual basis, but people are terrified of that, Jody. I will tell you what you just described of going to knock on the next-door neighbor's door. And let's say it's a new person, as you said, who moved in and may not know the rules. This is obviously where a new resident interview would be helpful if the board or management would, you know, go through all these rules and sit somebody down in a nice way and say, you know, this is when the trash goes out, this is what, you know, the parking situation is, this is the guest situation. But often that doesn't happen. So for a a a neighbor to point that out, I think that could be terrifying for them. Although I agree with you, you're still going to be out it regardless, because if you go and complain directly to the management company or to the board, typically they're going to know that somebody complained about them. Often the violator will say, Well, who, you know, who turned me in? I want to know who contacted the association or manager. Sometimes they tell the person, sometimes they don't tell the person. Would you recommend, you know, let's say even before we have the debacle with the garbage cans, just welcoming the person into the neighborhood.
SPEAKER_00:You stole the words right out of my mouth. So because we're human beings, we need those relationships. And like you want to fix the roof when the sun is shining, you want to grease the wheel before you hear the squeak. When a new neighbor moves in, if you are so inclined to bring over a little treat, that's lovely. I started off baking little treats for the new neighbors that were moving in in my area, and it got very big very fast because there's a lot of turnover at the houses here. So I started buying them at a local uh bakery and bringing over a little box of cookies to welcome them, introduce myself, had a little note with my cell phone and said, if you have any questions, just you know, give me a call. I'm happy to answer them. So that way I've had an interaction, I've introduced myself. And when I knock on the door about the garbage, it's not the first time they're meeting me. And I will say that a lot of organizations do have their lists of do's and don'ts, and they give that to people during an orientation. It is overwhelming. As somebody that recently moved to Florida, the the day that we moved in, all the stuff was happening. We're getting the phones and the televisions hooked up and the water turned on, and the people in the office who are great in my HOA, they're wonderful. They give us an entire binder. It was like a college course of things that we needed to know and absorb. And it's just sometimes it's too much. And that's why a helpful neighbor can really be an asset in these communities. And I will say on the other end of things, because I spent years and years my career in human resources, nobody likes an anonymous note. So being turned in for something is really upsetting for people. They would much rather have a neighbor come by and say, Hey, I realize that you're new here. We switch which side of the street we can park on, and now it's an odd number, so we have to park on the odd side. I would much rather that than to get a note from the office saying somebody was mad about where you parked your car. So we are human beings, presume positive intent. Don't presume that the neighbor is putting out their garbage to annoy you. It may have the impact of annoying you, but that's probably not their intent. They probably just don't know. Or maybe the community they move from, garbage day was on Wednesday and they lived there for 40 years and they're just programmed in their head to put out the garbage on Tuesday night. Have those conversations. Do not presume the person is going to scream at you because most of the time the response is, oh my goodness, thank you so much for telling me.
SPEAKER_02:So a c a couple of things. One, when a new neighbor moves in next to me, and that hasn't happened, by the way, in our neighborhood, we've had neighbors next to us for like decades, but I brought over an orchid because if I brought over anything I baked, that would be a really bad first impression. So my my go-to is orchid. I figure you don't, it doesn't really take a lot of work. You don't have to put it in fresh flowers, just stick it in a window for a while. Where did you move from, Jody? I was up in the Boston area. So that raises an interesting question because sometimes, you know, you hear about stereotypes of manners being different depending on your geography, right? I come from Chicago. Everybody likes to say Midwesterners are friendly. Um, maybe other parts of the country, New York has a bad reputation for maybe not being as friendly. And I don't even know if that's well earned. So, what do you think when you moved down here from Boston? Did you notice anything in particular about a change in etiquette or or manners?
SPEAKER_00:It is interesting because etiquette is culturally specific as well as situationally specific. So I moved to a community down here, and the norms in this community are very different from the norms in my parents' community, which is only a couple of miles from here. So you have to be, I'd say you have to be part anthropologist, part detective. Notice what the norms are. So in some communities, people will get up before the sun and they will put their towel out on a chair next to the pool and they will claim that as their own. And in other communities, that is a huge no-no. You only put out your towel if you are pool side. So being aware and asking questions about what the norms are so that you can make sure not to overstep or um find yourself in a little bit of trouble as you navigate. So down um here in Florida, I would love to be able to say, all people in Boston are this way, or all people in Florida are this way. And that's simply not true. I find that most people respond in kind. So if I smile and I say hello to somebody, um, the bagger in the grocery store, they will smile and say hello back. If I, instead of making eye contact with the cashier and just looking at my phone and scowling, they're not gonna talk to me. And that doesn't matter whether I'm down here in Florida or up in Massachusetts.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you mentioned the norms, and it's incredibly important, but I find that some people move into communities, uh, locations, and they want to challenge the norms. That's the first thing they want to do is say, hey, you know what? I want to put my towel out on that uh pool chair or in the I want to reserve, you know, throw my stuff on and not clean up in the that piece of equipment in the gym. What do you say to people who go, okay, that's fine, but I'm gonna challenge the norms?
SPEAKER_00:So I think there's good and bad to everything. So some norms are there for a reason. So let's say um, I'm gonna use a very specific one. No hot tub, no use of the hot tub after sundown, even if there are lights. And there's a reason for that, because our insurance companies know that the chances of somebody having something detrimental happen in the hot tub increase significantly after the sun goes down, whether it's because they also are consuming some alcohol or because they're uh doing something they're not supposed to do. We know that the risk increases as the sun goes down. So, for norms like that, I really don't want people to mess with them. Ask why they're in place and respect those norms. The other part of that is the emperor has no clothing. There are some norms that are in place in different clubs or organizations or communities that have been that way because somebody started doing them 40 years ago and they're no longer appropriate or they're no longer relevant. And your newest members, the people that are newest to your building or your community, those are the people that are going to notice when something really doesn't make sense and to be able to ask that question. So I encourage the new people to have those conversations. They don't have to be hostile, they don't have to be confrontational, they don't have to be aggressive. But you can say, I noticed that we only have coffee in the clubhouse on Mondays. Why is that? And it turns out that that was because they used to have board meetings on Monday mornings and that's when they did coffee. And now board meetings are on Thursday nights, but it would be nice to have coffee at the clubhouse every morning. Is there money in the budget to do that? Yes, there is money in the budget. Let's do it for the next three months and see if people use it or if the the people, the custodians are throwing it away. So I do want you to challenge norms, but I want you to do it politely.
SPEAKER_02:You know, it's interesting because I remember one particular client, Jody, they um had 40 pages of their rule book. You mentioned that a few minutes ago. 40 pages. And I as I went through it, some of it I said, does this still matter? You know, head-in parking versus, you know, head-out parking for your vehicles. Why was this? Well, because once upon a time we used to have flowers planted in that location. We no longer have flowers planted in that location. So I do recommend to uh communities that they regularly do a rules audit. Look and see if things, if these rules are still needed. I also highly recommend an index to your rules because a lot of times they've got 20, 30, 40 pages of rules and no index. So you're flipping through to find the rule on the pool furniture or the use of the gym. And again, if you have an index, it just makes it easier for people to go, oh, okay, I want to find out about gym hours and gym usage. Go to the index, go to G, and then you get to the you get to the rule you need. I think you have to make it easier for people to meet your expectations in the humanities. I did want to circle back to your example, okay? Yeah. So let's say new neighbor, I haven't had a chance to go over with my orchid yet and say hello, but they have put their trash cans out two and a half days in advance, which is really going to be bad because we we know what's going to happen. And we have wildlife, a lot of wildlife in in my particular HOA. I go over, knock on the door, I'm as friendly as can be. Door gets slammed in my face. Now what?
SPEAKER_00:So that's on them. That is not a reflection of you. So now that's when you then take it up a notch and you call the office and let the office deal with that. Um, oftentimes you will find that somebody puts out their garbage early because they're going away. They might be shutting their house down, or maybe they're going on one of the last-minute 50% off cruises out of Fort Lauderdale, whatever it is. And so by able being able to say to them, um, you know, if you leave it up at the top of your driveway, I'm happy to pull it down for you, or sometimes you can double bag it and give it to a neighbor. And that way when you go on vacation, they can do that for you. So there's ways to be able to do that. Yes, there are some people that have issues out there. Um, but I always like to start with the easiest interaction. And then if they're a negative person or if they scream at me, then I bring in others. I it's called in the psychological terms, it's called a powerful other. And you bring in the powerful others, the people who are in the places of authority in the organization. Um, but I have found that in general, especially people that are moving to communities, that are moving to condo buildings, they want that interaction. They want that social interaction, they want to be part of a neighborhood or of a community. Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be going to an HOA or condo association place to live. If they want to live as a hermit, then a condo community is not going to be the best place for that.
SPEAKER_02:I couldn't agree more, although I do think there are some people who are in those communities who it's not a great fit, as you said. They may not be social animals, um, but they either inherited the unit or they can't, there's nothing else in their price range outside a mandatory community association. And I did want to ask about that. So, you know, you said make eye contact, be friendly, say hello. I'll give you an example from my community. There is an individual, you know, normally we have a very friendly community, very friendly homeowners association. Everybody walks around, everybody waves, everybody says hello. As newer people move in, some of them are adopting these habits, some are not. But it became apparent that one individual may be on the spectrum. So when you're talking about neurodiversity, it may not be comfortable for that person to make eye contact with a neighbor, even if they know you, Jody. They've met you, they've seen you at the board meeting. That's still not their thing. Is it appropriate to continue to try to do your normal thing, which is wave and say hi, and this person is gonna look away, not make contact? Do you give them their space? What would what would etiquette demand in that situation?
SPEAKER_00:So I am not a diagnostician. Let's see if I can even say that. I can barely say it, let alone be it. So I am not going to try to diagnose other people's situations. So if there's something that they want me to know, I don't need to know, that's their private information. But if there's something they want me to know, that's useful information. So if I see somebody and they're new and they're not making eye contact, I might send an email instead. I tried to pop by this morning, it looked like you were busy or you were rushing into the house. I wanted to let you know. I'm two doors down to your left. If you have any questions, I'm happy to answer them for you. Some people are better having an email. So it's a difference between what's known as synchronous communication. So right now you and I are having a conversation, it's a back and forth, versus asynchronous communication, which is I sent an email, that person can open it at their leisure, they can think about it, they can look at it, and then a day or two later they can respond. So some people are better with asynchronous. And since you brought up neurodiversity, I actually wanted to mention the situation I had recently. So somebody in the community, they recently moved in. I went over, I introduced myself. I didn't really realize anything was going on. I asked if they would like to meet me for a meal in the clubhouse. Um, they said, Great. And we were texting back and forth about the different times. And that person let me know once we had the date and time combined. They said, I wanted to let you know that I have a speech delay. And so when you say something to me, it takes me a moment or two to formulate my response and say it back. And people who don't know me well will often try to jump in to guess what I'm saying. And the best thing for you to do during our lunch is just pause and let me get to the thing that I want to say. And that was beautiful. I still don't know exactly what it is that's going on with that person because it's none of my business. I do not need to know that information unless we become very close friends and they decide to share. But they gave me the information that I needed for an interaction. Back like when I was working at human resources, and I would have somebody come in for an interview, and they were a religious person. And you I'm a female, they would be a male, they don't touch anyone. And they would let me know as part of the confirming of the interview, dear Miss Smith. I'm so excited to interview at Acme Corporation. Just wanted to let you know that due to my religion, and they didn't have to tell me which one, I will not be shaking your hand. I just wanted to let you know in advance. So that way I could modify my behavior to make them more comfortable and to have the interview be more comfortable.
SPEAKER_02:That is a that is a beautiful thing to be able to communicate up front, hey, this is what I need, this is what our interaction is going to look like. If that interviewee had not said that, had come in, you extended your hand and he had not extended his. I assume you would have just withdrawn your hand, but you may have had some thoughts about that.
SPEAKER_00:So again, remember I talked about being an anthropologist and a detective. Usually somebody that comes in that is that religious, there's a clue and cue in both their attire. Sometimes they're wearing a religious head uh headdress, um, maybe they're wearing a turban or a kippah, they're wearing something, or if it's a woman, they might be have a headscarf. Um, usually both genders have long sleeves, higher collars. And so in their attire, there should be something pinging in the back of my head. This person may or may not shake hands. And so if I'm clued in by their attire, I will do what I call narrating my behavior. So I will say, Welcome, I'm so excited that we have a chance to talk. May I shake your hand? Or would you like to shake hands? And most of the time they will say no, and I say, That's absolutely fine. I'm thrilled that you're here. Please come in and sit down. So by narrating the behavior, do you shake hands? May I shake your hand? That's going to be better than me touching them or having them touch me. That is not going to be comfortable for them. So that narration can be really helpful.
SPEAKER_02:That's really good advice. And I know I have made that mistake before. I've probably Because I meet a lot of people at meetings and and out and about. And it's it's very good advice. You do have to be cued in. You have to, you have to look and see what's going on. You can't go into these interactions completely with your with your head in the clouds. What do you say when people say etiquette doesn't matter? You know, does it still matter in a world where people are telling it like it is, they're keeping it real, they're, you know, it they seem to appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00:So I I love the idea that etiquette is is being fake or false because you can keep it real and still be polite. This is not a decision between one or the other. You can be incredibly polite. I worked with an amazing mentor, and we would have to tell people really horrific news. We would have to tell people that they were gonna get laid off or that their project wasn't gonna be funded, um, not fun things. I would much rather tell people about they were gonna be promoted or they're, you know, they they just got a big award. But occasionally you have to tell people really bad news. And what I he told me, and this was I was very early on in my career, was that being polite is telling somebody to go to hell in such a way that they're looking forward to the trip. And that that always stuck with me because there are times, and I'm sure as an attorney, there are times where you have to give people really bad news. And there are ways that you can tell them bad news that is going to make it easier for them to hear. But the other part of this that I want to pick up on is that this is a new thing. So I have, I know your viewers might not be able to see it, this is an etiquette book. It's entitled Polite Manners for Little Men and Women. It's from 1911. All right, 1911, so over 100 years old. It's talking about manners, but manners specifically for children. And I quote that the manners of children in this present day and age are not what they should be, or even what they were a generation ago, is an indisputable fact. So the And that was 1911 too. 1911 was the publication date of that. So the idea that um people are not as polite as they used to be has been going on since the dawn of time. I'm sure we could find cave drawings in France that say people used to be nicer than they are today. Um, so it really is one of those things. Are there times when we are brusque? Like if somebody is about to get hit as they're walking across the street, I will scream, look out. I don't take the time to say, oh, excuse me, madam, you might want to watch to your left. I believe there's a car that's about to turn. Like there having good manners is not about being prim and proper and perfect. And in fact, if having good manners was about being perfect, I would be a terrible etiquette expert. Having good manners is doing the best that you can in the situation that you're in. So there are times that you have to be real with somebody, but take a moment and think about is there a way I can give someone this information that is going to be easier for them to hear? And one of the things I love about etiquette is that you don't always have to justify your behavior. So let's say there's somebody in my community that I find rude and boorish, and they keep asking me, Do you want to go to lunch on Friday? And I say, Oh, no, thank you. I don't need to tell them I don't want to go to lunch with you because you're rude and borish. I simply say no, thank you. So there's a discretion. Okay, but Jody, let's roll. But why? Why, Jody, do you not want to go to lunch with me? So I can say, I'm so sorry, I'm already busy. It's great. I'll see you at the pool on Sunday because I don't mind seeing them at the pool when everybody else is there. Sure. So there's there's ways that I can deflect that without having to tell them that I they're just not my kind of person.
SPEAKER_02:Gosh, there's so much to unpack with this with this topic when it comes to the community association arena. Um I find that people become keyboard bullies. So things they wouldn't say to someone's face, they have no problem making a comment on a social media post or in a text. How do we handle that?
SPEAKER_00:How do we handle it? Are you on the board? Are you in in charge of the committee or are you just another person resident? Because there's two different ways depending on what's going on. Let's let's examine both. Okay, so if I'm part of one of the um clubs or organizations, or if I'm on the board and somebody's having a real issue with something that I'm doing, then and I see it coming up, or even worse, I'm hearing about it because you think instant messenger is fast. There's nothing faster than gossip in these communities. Oh my goodness, like I was at the clubhouse talking to somebody, I get home, and my spouse says, so I hear that you were talking to Blink at the pool. I think, how did you even? I just got home. They they know everybody knows everybody's business. So if I'm somebody in a leadership position and I hear either through gossip or on one of the online forums that somebody's really upset, I am going to find a way to meet with that person. Generally, I want to meet in a neutral location. So in the cafe, in the clubhouse, I want to ask somebody who's not me to be there. So maybe the president of the association or maybe the property manager. I'm gonna have somebody else there. And I'm going to sit down and say, so, so Donna, I hear you have a real problem with what I'm doing with the flowers in the entryway. Tell me, talk to me. And I am not going to respond or defend what I'm doing. Instead, I'm going to take that entire interaction to hear why they're so upset. What is it specifically? Is it that I chose the wrong color or I chose ones that weren't good pollinators for the bees? I want to hear what they're saying. And then I will say to them, I haven't thought about this because obviously, if I thought about it, I wouldn't have done it. I hadn't thought about this. Give me a day or two to consider what you're saying. And then let me get back to you. And then I do consider what they are saying. Were the plants that were good pollinators so much more expensive? And then I get back to them. Sometimes that's in person, sometimes that's in an email, sometimes it's back on the same forum. I am not a perfect person and I'm not omnipotent. There could be people that have better ideas than I have, and I want to hear them. And I would rather them come to me directly. But if they have to start off, you know, doing a little bit of snipping here and there, that's okay. So I am going to address it straight out, but I'm going to take it up a nut. So if they're complaining on a forum, I'm going to make sure we meet in person. If they are screaming at me at the pool, I'm going to say, you know what, let's wait 20 minutes. I'm going to meet you inside in the conference room. In 20 minutes, I'm going to make sure that I get somebody else, and then we're going to have a conversation.
SPEAKER_02:So what you're what you're describing, Jody, is the pattern of behavior that a lot of managers of resorts, spas, hotels use on Yelp. If you go to the reviews and somebody posts a nasty review, the best hotels have managers or some other representative who will go online and say, We're so sorry, we'd like to do better, we'd like to hear more, we're going to give you a certificate, whatever it may be. I have yet to see any hotel manager or resort or spa manager go on and say, You're nasty, you're ugly, don't come back here. But yet in our communities, that is sometimes the response that we see the back and forth on social media. And I have to say, Jody, you have very strong communication skills. Okay. So everything you just described, absolutely, I can see Jody Smith doing that in a, you know, in a follow-up to any pushback you may have in terms of the work that your committee or your board is doing. My experience, unfortunately, over the years has been often it's the person with the weakest communication skills who takes the lead in communicating. And this is a recipe for disaster when we're talking about really significant projects, like a concrete restoration project, a roof replacement, painting, anything big, you need your strongest communicator out there, kind of dealing with your residence and and diffusing any possible um, you know, escalation. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:People, you cannot overcommunicate in an HOA or condo association. Um, that was one thing that I learned in my work in human resources is that we would be doing a restructuring or we'd be renovating a building and have to move offices. And the second you tell people there's going to be any sort of change, rumors run rampant. There, you have to communicate over and over and over again until everybody has the same information. Um, but this is something you mentioned uh in restaurants and hotels and spas. I actually teach this to major hospitality groups. So if a board wants to learn how to, it's called I I call my lecture uh dealing with difficult people, which is a negotiation lecture.
SPEAKER_02:We've got a class with that name.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. So I I teach people how to do this and how not to take things personally. Um, because I think a lot of times people get confused between their ego and their ideas. And you want leaders in your community that can separate their ego from their ideas. Um, just so you know, in when you're dealing with restaurants, when somebody's still at the restaurant and complaining, um, one of the best things to do is to give the entire table free dessert because that will cost the restaurant less than if they give a free meal voucher for the people to come back another time. And you want them to leave having a positive experience. So if they have a negative experience and they leave with a voucher, they're still leaving with a negative experience versus giving the entire table free dessert. Now they're leaving with a positive experience. So there's a lot of psychology, and my background, I think you can probably tell, is in psychology. Um, there's a lot of motivational psychology that plays into these things.
SPEAKER_02:Should we all just use chat GPT to communicate with each other? You know, I mean, I can tell you go to ChatGPT, ask it to polish up your message. It's gonna sound a lot nicer than what you can most of us can come up with. Uh, maybe that's the future. What you know, I I tend to ask a lot of guests on the podcast, Jody, how they think AI might be either helpful or harmful to their industry. I think in your industry it could be very helpful to just get another look at a message before you press send. What do you think?
SPEAKER_00:So for for me, and this is my my opinion, is that if you're over the age of 30, I'm happy for you to use chat GPT. I don't know if you saw, but an MIT study just came out with brains of uh people in their late teens, early 20s who are using chat GPT and they are not learning. Their brain is literally not making connections that they need to connect. So it's a fabulous study. If you type in MIT plus chat GPT, I'm sure it will pop up for you and your listeners. I'll put it in the show notes. So it's a wonderful study where at the beginning, so for people under the age of 30 whose brains are still developing, I don't want you to use that. But if you are 70 years old and serving on a board and you are annoyed with somebody, by all means, please use somebody, whether it's AI or one of your fellow board members, to edit and revise before sending out a nasty gram.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's really good advice. You mentioned young brains. I wanted to I wanted to talk about children because you picked up that beautiful book from 1911 for etiquette for children. Do you think parents and other adults realize that they're modeling behavior for their children?
SPEAKER_00:I don't think they do. Um, and they really need to be aware that as human beings, even though I love technology, I use technology, I'm on screens a lot of my day. The basic human interactions are still interpersonal interactions, and we pick up on facial gestures, body language, microexpressions, tone of voice, whether we have a happy tone of voice or whether we have an angry tone of voice, all of these things are part of our DNA. We have developed over thousands of years to respond to things in a certain way. And if you are not modeling things to your children, then they are not going to know those things when they get out into the world. And in fact, in January, my business will be 30 years old. And when I started 30 years ago, people had a real baseline of behaviors that they came to. And maybe occasionally I had somebody who came from overseas or somebody that, you know, really had a hard time picking up on social cues, and I would give them a little bit of extra information. Now I'm going into organizations and especially for orientations for new employees, these young adults who went through middle school, high school, or college during COVID, and they didn't have those interpersonal interactions during those key developmental years. We are going in and I am starting at ground zero with them. I'm talking to them about how to stand up, how to sit in a chair, what an eye contact triangle is, when to shake hands, when not to shake hands, how to actually do that, how to have a conversation. People have lost the ability to have a conversation. And these are all things that if they're not getting because their parents or their caregivers are not modeling throughout their childhood, they have to get it when they get out into the work world. And is that due to the increased screen time as well? People are using screens as babysitters. Um, you're going on a long car ride. I would rather your child sit and stare out the window and play alphabet games and you know, looking for the license plate games and being bored. One of the greatest gifts that uh parental units can give to children these days is boredom. That's where the brain really kicks in. That's where the neurons start to fire. Let children be bored and let them figure out what to do with themselves, whether they need to read a book, um, whether they go through the recyclable bin and build a huge tower out of recycled boxes, whatever it is, you don't have to spend a lot of money to make your children bored. Give them the gift of boredom.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, we didn't have a chance. I grew up in a family. I grew up in Chicago, four kids. I was reading constantly. And we would also get on our bikes, and my my mom would say, be home by dinner. Sometimes I have a nightmare that I'm driving on riding a bike on the on the highway in Chicago, and it's just a recurring dream. But it's it's funny. If we ever were bored, we would get a chore. There was a lot of tasks to do.
SPEAKER_00:So we really a great parenting device. I love that. I absolutely love that. Yes, that's and even with small children, even before they can talk, when you're getting ready to feed the baby, would you like to have your meal now? Yes, please, I would love to have my meal. Of course, I'd be happy to give it to you. And you're talking to, you know, a three-month-old. The reason that you're doing that is you're prepping those conversations. You're getting them ready so that the time that they're able to speak, they already have heard that conversation so many times. Um, and I have to say, it's not just the parental units, the grandparents, the aunts and uncles, the elder neighbors that are there, we are all responsible for helping these children to learn these things. So even if you don't have any children, there are children nearby that you can help and model those behaviors for.
SPEAKER_02:So, Jody, are you up for a lightning round? If I give you a couple different scenarios, can you go through your etiquette tips for those scenarios? Sure. Let's do it. Let's do it. Um, board meeting. We're talking about a special assessment, angry people. What can the board do? What are some etiquette tips that the board can employ to kind of keep things on an even keel?
SPEAKER_00:So oftentimes boards will get that information that you're going to need to do an assessment, and they will keep that information until they have all the information, and then they share all of the information all at once. And I would actually recommend drawing out the communications. So at the first meeting, I will say, you know, we just had an inspector come through and look at the parking lot underneath the building, and there's some concerns. So we're going to have a secondary inspection, and we will publish the results of that secondary inspection when we have it. Then the next meeting, there's been now a secondary inspection. Here's the results from the first one, here's the results from the second one. It's not good, my friends. Something is going to need to be done. Then at the next board meeting, we are starting to look into contractors that can come and still reinforce the concrete in the parking structure. We are going to be doing three bids, competitive bidding. If you have any connections in the contracting community or anybody that you think should be included as part of this process, please let us know. We are going to have this run under our landscape committee or your contracting. Tell them who's in charge, who's it, who maybe it's the contract committee. They're going to be doing it. Then at the next meeting, these are the people, your residents who are on the contract committee. These are the five people that we've asked contractors to submit bids to us. When we get the bids, we will let everybody know. Do you see? I'm doing this as well.
SPEAKER_02:This is what you said, you know, there's no such thing as too much information. Right. Building it up. So it's not just they've heard nothing and now they're getting the$10,000 per unit assessment.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. So then once we get it down to the three, we tell people what the process is, what the the matric is for choosing who's going to be the contractor. We actually have whoever, whatever committee is doing it, give a report. We have, you might not want to use names, it depends on your community. Contractor A, it's going to cost this. Contractor B, it's going to cost this. And contractor C, it's going to cost this. At the next board meeting, the board will be taking a vote. If you have any questions or concerns, please make sure that the board hears about them before the vote. So that was what, about six months. So unless it's an emergency and you need to take care of it immediately, you give people the opportunity and have a town hall meeting where all you do, so this is not a board meeting where you have other things on your agenda, have a town hall where the only thing people are talking about is the problem in the parking structure. And then listen. Oftentimes people really just need to feel heard. You don't have to agree, they need to feel heard. And sometimes they have a piece of information that the board has not thought about. So listening to your members can be beneficial all the way around.
SPEAKER_02:Well, to that last point, let me just add that for communities where they keep the members' input to the end after they've already voted on everything, I've often said that's a mistake. Because you can certainly and should create a reasonable framework around membership participation at meetings. Otherwise, it's a free-for-all, particularly in large meetings where you've got hundreds of owners. But if you try to shunt the membership input until the very end and you've already made all your decisions as a board, you may have missed out on some valuable input. And then you may have to circle back on what you did, which is never a good look. I agree with all of your recommendations. I want to just add for our listening audience that we're also realistic that in some communities you may have one or more people that are intent on creating havoc at board meetings. It doesn't matter how much advanced communication, how many resources you've put out there at their disposal, they really just want to show up and create a problem. And in those communities, that's when you go from working with Jody to working with me.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. And in fact, I I don't know if we've really discussed it, but all of these meetings, including the board meetings, should have a clear structure. And personally, I'm a big fan of Robert's rules. Um, if you follow Robert's rules of order, that way if somebody is out of order, you're able to give them, they have two minutes or three minutes to express their opinion, then they need to sit down. And if they're becoming really disruptive, then you do need to make sure that you take it up a level and get attorneys involved. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:Robert's rules of order can be useful if your board and counsel are fluent in terms of Robert's rules of order. I have used, I have seen it used as a weapon where the resident parliamentarian stands up and makes motions and the board has no idea whether or not these are proper motions. And so it just becomes a free-for-all. You can do that through board rules too. I would say some governing documents, Jody, do require. They actually say the meetings must be conducted according to Robert's rules of order. I don't recommend it again, unless you're very fluent in it. Gotta know what you're doing. Okay, so let's go on to the next example. New resident interview. The board is interviewing or the committee, the screening committee, is interviewing a potential new purchaser. Any etiquette tips for both? By the way, etiquette tips for both the person being interviewed as well as the committee or board member doing the interviewing.
SPEAKER_00:So first I'll start with the committee doing the interviewing. There are laws around what you can and cannot ask somebody who's looking to purchase. I do not know them because I'm not an attorney. So make sure that all of the questions, even your off-handed comments, need to be vetted by your HOA attorneys because you do not want to be in a situation where you're going up against fair housing discriminatory laws. So make sure all of those, that entire process has a stamp of approval from a real attorney, not from me, because I do not have a law degree. So that's first and foremost. Then I would let people know in advance. So if I'm looking to buy, let me know there's going to be a credit check for the past 15 years that I'm going to need to provide all of the addresses I've lived at for the past 20 years, that I need to have a letter from my vet as to how much my dog weighs and whether or not she's had her rabies shots. Let people know in advance what to expect so that me coming in as the prospective purchaser, I'm not surprised. And I've had the opportunity to gather all of that information so that I can have it readily available for you. Obviously, you want to be on time, let people know where to park. I'm coming into the HOA. I didn't know I needed to have my driver's license out to have the security guard check it. Let people let people know, let me know in advance. You're going to need to have your driver's license. Once you go through the gate, you're going to take a left. You have to park on the side of the street that matches with whether the month is odd or even. Come in through the front door, tell the person at the reception desk you're looking at. Let people know. Do be as preemptive as possible so that there's no surprises along the way.
SPEAKER_02:And the interviewee, I I once had a situation where a board called me. The interviewee uh threatened to sue them during the interview. That's a no-go, right?
SPEAKER_00:Um, well, they would I I'm not gonna say that's a no-go, but it would depend because if they asked something that was that was illegal, um the the response is that's an inappropriate question. Let's move on.
SPEAKER_02:That was not the case. So let me clarify: the case was these applicants had commercial vehicles which weren't permitted in the community at the time. They had an excessive number of pets, but that went beyond the cap on pets. And when they were told these things, they said, well, you know, we'll sort that out afterwards, but if we have to sue, we'll sue.
SPEAKER_00:So that would be uh as soon, I would say, well, thank you so much for coming in. It's been interesting meeting you. And as soon as the door shut, I would be on the phone with the attorney and I would be documenting anything that they said. If we did not record the interview, I would be writing down as much of their word-for-word conversations so that I had that.
SPEAKER_02:Very good advice. You're hard to throw off balance, Jody. I threw that one in to throw you off. Uh, let's talk about pet owners. Now, there's a little bit different expectation in a single-family home, homeowners association, where there's space between the homes, as opposed to vertical construction in the multifamily buildings where you've got people sharing common corridors, elevators, other common spaces. What are the tips when it comes to pet owners? And then again, people who are claiming to have service animals or emotional support animals when other people are seeing behavioral issues related to those animals?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. So there's a lot of things, there's a lot to unpack there. So let's go through it one at a time. So even in single family dwellings, there is the issue of noise and waste. So in most organizations have some sort of um clause about noise, and so there should not be excessive barking before or after the the during the quiet hours. Um, also the the length of the barking. You know, a dog is going to bark, but if they are barking incessantly for 45 minutes, that is going to be an issue to the to the people around them in the neighborhood. So the the animals should be generally well behaved. Yes, when my doorbell rings, the dog is going to bark. There are very few dogs that don't bark at doorbell ringing. So, but what I don't want is that I leave to go to work and my dog barks for four hours straight because they're upset and somebody's living next door. So I need to be aware of the amount of noise my dog is making and picking up after the dog. This is essential. If you cannot bend over to pick up your dog waste, then you need to get an adaptive device. They have all these cute little draw things. You can put the band right on it, it ties it up, it's very easy. You are responsible for that dog. Now, in places like the hallway, I should not see evidence that your dog was there. If I get to the elevator and I have a dog and the elevator opens up and we're both going to the lobby, but there's somebody in the elevator, and that person says, I'm afraid of dogs, then I need to wait. That person was already in the elevator first. They need to go down, and then I need to go down after they're down.
SPEAKER_02:I was going to ask you that question. Is it proper etiquette if you have a dog? And some people have allergies, phobias, they've had bad experiences. Is it proper etiquette? I had one community that passed this rule that said you must ask the passenger already in the cab, in the elevator cab, may I come in with the dog?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, that's that's the perfect solution. Um, I would say preemptively, if you're the person that's in the elevator and you have a fear or an allergy, you need to say before they even start coming in, I'm so sorry, you need to wait for the next one. Now, notice I didn't tell you whether I had an allergy or a fear or a phobia because you don't need to know that. You only need to know what the behavioral ramification is. So I'm so sorry. I'm gonna take this to the lobby. I'll press eight when I get there, so it'll come right back up to you. Very easy, quick conversation. Um, the only exception, of course, is going to be a service animal, and service animals need to be certified. They are trained, they know exactly what to do, when to do it. Do not touch a service animal unless the human being has told you that you can touch the service animal. The emotional support dogs, we all know there are ones that are really valid and have been trained, and then there are other ones where people are printing stuff off of the internet and calling it an emotional service animal. So it's it's the the um the qualifications become much broader, and except for the service animals, which have been certified and are really service animals.
SPEAKER_02:I had a trainer on the the podcast, and we went through the different training. I mean, typically, listen, emotional support animals, they run the gamut. I mean, it does, it's not just dogs or miniature horses, which are service animals. It can be uh, it could be a lizard, it could be a rooster, yes, it could be uh, it could be whatever. They don't have specific training. And unfortunately, that's what we see more of in pet-restricted communities are the emotional support animals. Well, those are not the animals that will sit quietly at their disabled owners' feet and really not, they they're working. They really, those animals do not interact with the generic public. So that is um, and to your point of I will, you know, I'll send the elevator back up for you. I have had some clients, Jody, send me tapes from their elevators where people have gotten this fights in the elevators because they've gone in and you know, even that person, you could run up against somebody who says, I'm coming in anyhow. Uh at that point, you know, I my advice as counsel is don't engage in an altercation. But if you've got a rule, if you don't have a rule, that's a good one to bring to the board. Hey, maybe we should have a rule that's all in the elevator, you know, somebody cannot enter with a dog. Maybe they can't enter with a dog above a certain size, whatever it may be. And if you have a rule already in place and somebody's violating it, that may be another conversation.
SPEAKER_00:But the emotional service animals, the dues-paying human being takes precedence over the emotional support animal. Not a service animal, but emotional support animal. So if I have a dog, I'm a dues-paying member, but I have a dog and my neighbor is fearful of my dog, then they get to to decide how that interaction is going to go. And that might mean that I have to sit with my dog in our driveway until they walk by. The the person takes precedence over the animal. Um, and that's just the way it needs to be. But they should document it in their foundational documents.
SPEAKER_02:Well, now you triggered now you triggered a memory. I I had a client, it was an active adult community, and they had a theater, a large theater where people went, and they had an owner who would bring her emotional support animal to the theater, but the dog would bark throughout the performance.
SPEAKER_00:Not okay. Not okay. Sorry. The they they need to either leave the dog at home or they need to forego attending the theater. You can't distract from other people's enjoyment. That's that's not fair.
SPEAKER_02:What about crying babies in restaurants?
SPEAKER_00:Uh, so it depends on the restaurant. So if I'm in a loud, um sort of fun atmosphere restaurant, even a place like I'll give you an example, Burton's Grill. Love Burton's Grills are all over the country. They are loud, boisterous places, no problem having a crying baby there. If I go to a fancy French restaurant um that has uh strings playing quietly in the background, that's not the place for a crying baby. If your baby's in the carrier and they are flat out asleep and they're not making a peep, I'm not going to object. But people need to be aware that babies shouldn't be everywhere. And in fact, a lot of um restaurants and movie theaters have seized upon this as a business opportunity. So they have like nursing mothers Mondays at movie theaters, and people go when they can bring a toddler, they it doesn't have to be actually nursing, you could be feeding a bottle, but you know that you're going to hear babies in the theater on those days. Or for the neurodivergent community, there are certain restaurants that on their own slow days, so Tuesdays tend to be a slow night out, they will have a no-music Tuesday of the first Tuesday of the month, so that people who are um bothered and prefer less noise in the atmosphere and the environment of the restaurant know they can go that day. Um, so there's lots of ways to look at these things to make it as inclusive as possible. But inclusive as possible does not mean giving in to everyone's whim.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's and that's very true in our community associations as well. I mean, it's you are not gonna please everybody, but you have to enforce basic rules, the basic, you know, standards and norms that's gonna be in the best interest of most of the people. I can't have this episode, Jody, without talking about airplanes. I mean, I don't think a week goes by that I'm not on uh Instagram where I or I see some reel about unbelievable behavior on airplanes. What is happening on airplanes?
SPEAKER_00:So this is I get quoted most frequently um by reporters about airplanes these days. So there's a lot of things I would love to say it's all the passengers' fault, but it's not. We have to remember that this is a holistic environment. Airlines have made seats smaller, they have made leg room smaller, and they have made the baggage fees more expensive, which causes more people to be in a smaller space and fighting over a scarce resource. And that the tensions just even before you get to the airport, people are already anticipating how uh bad the flight is going to be. And so we have to keep in mind that we are in a metal tube hurtling through the air, and that even with being crushed in together, it's still better than driving. So you need to put on your points, you need to put on your comfortable clothing, things that are stretchy, things that are going to be comfortable to be in a seat for a while. Make sure you get uh bring a water uh container through TSA, fill it up once you're through TSA, have your own snacks. They used to give lots of great food on airplanes, they don't necessarily anymore have some granola bars, have some, you know, little things that you can eat so that you're not starve starving and getting hangry at your neighbors. In general, I like to address things at the beginning with the person. So, oh, you you might not realize, but um, your your bag is coming over onto my side and I have very little footroom to begin with. If possible, can you just tuck it back underneath the seat in front of you? Most of the time, people are going to be good about that. Or totally be honest, have you ever gotten into a scuffle on an airplane? I have not gotten into a scuffle, but I have had conversations with people on airplanes. Absolutely, I travel for business. I'm on airplanes a lot, a lot, a lot. Um, I've asked people to put in their earbuds, or especially the children's games, when they have those handheld games without the earpods in, the that noise is like an ice pick to my head. And I'll turn around and I'll ask whatever grown-up is with the person, can you either have the child put in earbuds or can you turn the volume off? And then if they don't, I go to the powerful other, I speak to the flight attendant and I ask them to tell them.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, I was gonna ask you, does everybody always comply with your requests? Sometimes sometimes people people have issues.
SPEAKER_00:I have issues, I'm sure you have issues, people have issues. In general, most people will comply. Um, in fact, uh, do we have time for a really quick story? We absolutely do. I'm fascinated. So I was on a flight from Chicago down to I think I was traveling to Dallas, and um, this woman was a last minute person. We were waiting to close the doors. It was her, she was holding a toddler, so it must have been about 18 months old, and she had a five and a seven-year-old, and they were like all over the plane. And I this I was like, this is not gonna work. One of the children was in the middle seat next to me, and then another child was actually had an aisle seat, and so I asked the man who was on the window if he would be willing to take the aisle so that the two siblings could sit next to each other. And you know, people are like, but he's like, you know what? I I'm okay doing that. So he moved over. We put the two kids uh in the middle in the aisle seat so they could look out the window. And because I travel a lot, anytime there was a noise, I said, I would say, you know, look outside. That means the flap is going down or the flap is going up. We had a grand old time. About halfway through the flight, the mom came up and she asked, you know, is everything okay? I said, Yeah, we're we're all doing fine. We, you know, we need to be part of a village. And she was taking care of the baby in the back, and it all worked out. I waited until everybody got off the plane until the mom was getting off, so that the children hooked up. I'm sure the flight attendants would have done it too. But I had a relationship with these kids now, and it was I had fun. They weren't my kids. So when it's somebody else's kid, it can be a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, listen, there's always great people in these situations, and then there's there's sometimes just people that you know there's gonna be a problem. This gets back to what you said at the outset of this episode. I don't know what it is, but I can usually see the person that's gonna be the problem coming down the aisle. I just don't know. I I can there's a there's an energy, an antsiness, uh, uh, a a franticness about them that usually manifests itself at some point during the the flight. And usually it's getting up a million times to check the uh the baggage uh in the um baggage compartment up and down and like that. And then it's when the one when we're t when we've landed, it's getting up and trying to cut in front of everyone. And I you know, at those at those times I think the best thing is just to try to, I don't know, do some breath work or meditation if you can, or put your earbuds in and listen to a listen to a podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, exactly. It's it's the circle of control. There's the things that I can control in the circle and then there's things outside of my circle of control that I have to let go.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. I wish, yeah, I wish airline travel, if I wish it would get back to what it used to be, which was just so much more pleasant. It really, it really is a problem. You walk through an airport, you rarely see a smiling face. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's uh airplane travel is is difficult. But I will say there are little things that you can do. So um one of the things you can do is don't travel on a really busy day. So I don't know if you've ever tried traveling on Thanksgiving day. Airports are empty. It is fabulous. And most of the crew and staff are actually happy to be there because they're getting double overtime. So they are thrilled. They'll celebrate Thanksgiving you know a day or two later with their family. If you can travel on Thanksgiving instead of a couple days before or a couple days after look for alternatives. So if you know that Miami and Fort Lauderdale are giant airports, see if you can fly out of PBI, Palm Beach International Airport. Look for the smaller hubs that's going to make it easy. And I will say in Europe and Asia they are much better than we are here. But train travel there are some very big benefits. Airplanes are not the only way to get where you need to go.
SPEAKER_02:That's a great point. I was just in Japan with my daughter and we did uh the shinkansin and it was it was an incredible experience. It was a lot of fun. I also think get yourself a great book or a movie that you know you're gonna something you're looking forward to. Yeah I don't mind plane travel when when I've got the right accommodations because to me I'm tuned out. I'm not on the phone nobody can reach me and I can do whatever I want if I want to read a book for four hours or if I'm flying to Europe if I want to write a read a book for seven hours or watch a movie and I kind of plan it out and with snacks too. I think that's some stuff to to make it a little more palatable. I mean overall Jody I just want to ask you how do we convince people that caring about the comfort of others by displaying good etiquette it it matters and it doesn't make you weak. It's actually a sign of strength and leadership.
SPEAKER_00:You bring up such a good point because we should not need to explain this to people and what I have seen in my years of doing this is that usually the people that are bullying or are mean to other people that this is something that came from their childhood. So when people exhibit these behaviors they actually are giving me a glimpse into who they are as a person. And then I can use that information to be able to interact with them. So sometimes that means that I have to be a little bit more curt. I'm not gonna be rude but I might be a little bit shorter with them or I might be overly polite with them. So people tell you a lot of information like you were talking about seeing somebody come down the aisle and through their body language and their expressions you're already picking up on who they are as a person. People broadcast to us I need to feel important so if somebody is trying to put on errors because they need to feel important then I will do my best to make them feel important because that's going to be how I get to work with that individual. So if I'm not getting along with somebody on my board, I'm gonna ask them I'm gonna set up a meeting and ask them why did you run for the board? What spurred you on to run for the board? What is the most important thing that you would like to accomplish during your time on the board and this could be somebody that I don't want to have lunch with because I find them boorish and rude but it could be that there's something on their agenda that I agree with and we can work together on and what during that time that we're we're working together I'm showing up on time I'm being polite I'm doing what I say that I'm going to do within the deadline and that people start to incorporate that into their own behavior. Modeling is not just for children modeling is for everyone we want to model the behaviors that we want to see in our communities.
SPEAKER_02:If I'm listening to you carefully there's no lost causes here. There's always room for everybody to get a little bit better behaved.
SPEAKER_00:There's always room for us for all of us to improve our behavior this is a journey not a destination there are opportunities for us to be a little bit more polite a little bit kinder a little bit more gentle and there's ways that we can find that with people that we might not necessarily agree with that there's some commonality whether they love their dog and you love your dog so you're both dog lovers look for the things that you can agree on without trying to need to agree on everything and then keep those conversations to those narrow topics.
SPEAKER_02:Oh God that's that is such great advice in in our polarized time it is very it's it's hard especially if you're on social media i I'm on social media quite a bit for work um you know even LinkedIn it's not just about jobs people post a lot of opinions Facebook Instagram TikTok but you're right try to keep it narrow that's a that's a really good piece of advice you've written etiquette guides for both men and women um I've I've looked at both of them I think once upon a time there was the belief that maybe women were more the arbiters of etiquette than men but today is that really the case or is is there really any gender distinction when it comes to etiquette?
SPEAKER_00:There is not we have rude males and we have rude females and we have polite males and polite females um I like to think of ourselves in the arena these days as being gender neutral. Anybody can be polite. So back in the day women were the arbiters of etiquette because we were such um delicate little flowers that if we did not know a man on the street he would not be able to talk to us without a formal introduction and a letter of recommendation nowadays that's that's simply just not the case. So I'd like to say etiquette evolves to keep pace with society and those days while while in the past there certainly were times when when that was true that's simply no longer the case anymore.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know I I still like when when a man opens the door for me says after you I I'm okay with I'm okay with anybody being polite.
SPEAKER_00:Well see that's what I was going to say is it's it's not it's it can be non-gender specific. So if I am going out with my grandmother who's 98 years old we are both female and I of course would open the door for her um when I was out with baby carriages I was happy when somebody opened if it was not an automatic door I did not care what their gender was if they were helping me to get the carriage into the the grocery store or into the restaurant. So I want people to think about things not so much we don't need to know what people's genders are. We simply need to be polite to to whoever we can if somebody's walking with a cane and I can open the door or help them down a step it does not matter what my gender is and what their gender is it's simply I'm a human being helping another human being. Are you going to be coming up with more updates on your book? I do updates occasionally um I send them out in social media so they're they're out there um I I don't know we'll we'll see I think you got to dig into texting so I have a question before I let you go yes I text a family member they never text me back should I is that bad should I be concerned or do they maybe just forget so uh I like to tell people I also teach a class on communications and one of the things that we talk about in communications is matching the mode with the message. So you want to think about what is the message I'm trying to communicate and is texting the best way to communicate this message? So there's that that first step. So if I am uh wishing my grandfather a happy birthday chances are I'm not gonna text I'm gonna send a card or present if we are in the same location I'm gonna take him out for lunch um make sure that he has a happy birthday or I'll send a card and then I'll call if we're not geographically in the same area. Sending a text to my grandfather for his birthday is not the best way to communicate. So there's that first step you want to match the the mode and the message I'm running 10 minutes late great on text that's a wonderful thing to text check out these three restaurants a great thing to text. I'm concerned with the way that you spoke to the client yesterday during the meeting that's not a text that's a face to face so first you have to match the mode and the message and then you need to think about the individual so if this person is not answering your text I would pick up the phone and I would call them and I would say first do I have the right text? Are you is this the right phone number for you? And second, what's the best way for me to be in contact with you? Would you prefer a call to your home number would you prefer a call to your voicemail? Would you rather me send you an email and then listen and then if this is somebody who's a VIP in your life somebody who you want to see and want to to interact with acknowledge that there I have people in my life who are just not text people. They don't they don't do text so if I want to see them I have to call them um I happen to like them so it's worthwhile in general people should respond in kind so if you text them they should text you at least a thumbs up so that you know that they saw it. If they're not pick up the phone take it up a level pick up the phone and call them.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah I I think um email and and text is even worse. It's hard to intuit any sort of feeling or emotion in it. I even with these emojis you know I I just think especially on significant topics serious topics I think phone conversations are better but we've all gotten so used to the text and and I have to laugh because there is text etiquette and you know once I was like oh this person didn't text me back but it happened to me on the reverse where I neglected to text somebody back not because I was doing it on purpose but because I just forgot to go back to that text and appearance. So that's all I think that's an update to your book is text etiquette because for sure. So what's the most shocking breach of etiquette you've witnessed in your career?
SPEAKER_00:Oh my goodness I would be I I am not allowed to say that would be very impolite for me to to share that um but yes there's lots of opportunity I call them etiquette emergencies. There are plenty of etiquette emergencies out there. So we'll just say you've seen some stuff. Oh I've seen some stuff yes and I've seen stuff that I've referred to attorneys because again etiquette is only the younger sibling and sometimes there are things that people they can't get along and it has to go to attorneys and that's the proper place for it.
SPEAKER_02:Fair enough. So if you could wave a magic wand and it instantly fix one universal bad habit what would it be?
SPEAKER_00:Oh I got two so I'm gonna tell you both of them first is the RSVP. If you get invited somewhere respond respond really even if it's a no tell the person don't make the the the wedding couple chase after you to find out whether or not you're coming to their event don't make me call you over and over again to find out if you're coming to my birthday party if I was nice enough to to send you an invite I wanted you there. If you can't come I'll get over it on a big girl but tell me yes or no don't make people chase after you and sort of on the same uh vein is thank you notes. If somebody has given you a gift or done something nice for you write the note in etiquette is like physics for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction I invite you you are a CP. I give you a gift you send me a thank you note if I was queen of the world those two things would be taken care of.
SPEAKER_02:I and I love both of those I fully support both of those um I know that you are a fan of um etiquette from years ago okay from historical of a historical etiquette so what's one etiquette rule from a bygone era that you wish we could bring back i i know this sounds silly um is I would really like to see people wearing hats again.
SPEAKER_00:So you would wear a hat outside before 6 p.m and I would love to see you know women in berets or kiloshes or even sun hats and men in bowlers or fedoras or the straw hats. Baseball hats are great I have my own collection I wore a baseball hat when I took a walk this morning when people are playing baseball or whether they're going to the beach baseball hats are great but if you're wearing baseball hats a lot think about expanding your hat collection there are just wonderful hats out there that I would love for people to wear more often. Have you ever gone to the Kentucky Derby? I have not gone to the Kentucky Derby but I have plenty of fascinators I wear hats to daytime weddings all the time um I just went to an event uh two days ago I wore a hat I cannot tell you how many people it's a beautiful gold hat with some flowers on it um how many people come up to me at the event and they say I wasn't brave enough to wear a hat and I think I'm not brave if you'd like to wear a hat it's before 6 p.m to a social event wear a hat plus let's bring it back let's bring hats back by the way hats on or off when you're indoors um it depends because there are certain situations that you would still leave them on. So if you're going grocery shopping or you're running an errand your hat would remain on for daytime events such as a luncheon or afternoon tea your hat would remain on. For dinners hats come off and the military that's a whole nother thing military has very strict rules about when they wear their hats. This is just for the general public.
SPEAKER_02:Jody you have been so generous and gracious with your time today. Any final words for our listeners and also please let them know where they can find you.
SPEAKER_00:So if your listeners have an etiquette emergency they can go to mannersmith.com like a booksmith a goldsmithmannersmith.com they can send me their etiquette emergencies and I'll respond directly to them and what I encourage people to do is just add a little bit of niceness to the world be a little bit more polite.
SPEAKER_02:I'm gonna take that to heart thank you so much Jody my pleasure bye bye thank you for joining us today don't forget to follow and rate us on your favorite podcast platform or visit takeitotheboard.com for more ways to connect