Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger

Why Solar Energy Makes Sense in the Sunshine State!

• Donna DiMaggio Berger

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A rooftop can be a power plant or a battleground. In this week’s Take It To The Board episode, we tackle a central question: should homeowners be able to use solar power without running into resistance from their own community associations? Host Donna DiMaggio Berger speaks with Ben Delman of Solar United Neighbors to break down where personal energy freedom bumps up against HOA oversight.

Donna and Ben explore the real factors behind a switch to solar energy—from hardware costs and permitting timelines to interconnection delays, SRECs, and the impact of net metering. If you’ve ever wondered what a typical home can offset via solar energy, how much a solar energy system costs, or how long it takes to recoup the investment, they’ll walk you through the numbers in clear, practical terms.

Donna and Ben are also joined by Dixie Koenemann, a homeowner from Ohio whose HOA pushed back at every step of her rooftop solar installation. She shares her firsthand experience navigating restrictive HOA rules and the strategy she used -- reviewing governing documents, tracking performance impacts, and citing state law-- to challenge vague or burdensome limitations that could have prevented her and her husband from enjoying the benefits of solar energy.

With the federal 30% tax credit ending, the conversation turns to what’s changing, what isn’t, and why local measures like faster permitting and fair interconnection policies are crucial to keeping solar accessible. 

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SPEAKER_01:

Hi everyone, I'm Attorney Donna DiMaggio Berger, and this is Take It to the Board, where we speak condo and HOA. We've all heard the call for renewable energy, but for many Americans, the real battleground isn't Congress or the Utility Commission, it's their homeowners association. Should you be able to use solar to power certain devices in your home without running into roadblocks from your own community? To help us unpack this issue today, I'm joined by Ben Delman from Solar United Neighbors for Sun. It's a national nonprofit organization that's helped tens of thousands of people to go solar, save money, and fight for their energy rights. And we're also joined by Dixie Kaineman, a homeowner in Ohio, whose HOA fought her every step of the way when she tried to install rooftop solar. Together we're going to explore what happens when personal energy freedom meets neighborhood restrictions, why Congress has now set an end date on the federal solar tax credit, and what that means for homeowners deciding whether to go solar. So today, this is a story about energy, policy, and people power, and it starts right in your community. So with that, Ben and Dixie, welcome to take it to the board. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks for having us, Donna.

SPEAKER_01:

It's a pleasure to have you. So, Ben, let me start with you. Can you tell us exactly how Solar United Neighbors or Sun got started and what role it plays for people wanting to utilize solar energy?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Donna, happy to. So our organization started more than 15 years ago with a simple question, and that was, Mom, can we go solar? So Walter, who's the son of Einas Guleman, our executive director, and his friend Diego, had just seen the movie Inconvenient Truth and were motivated to act. The boys were in middle school at the time and urged their parents to install solar panels on their home. This was back in 2007. The market for solar was much different than it is now. It was rather expensive and complicated to do so. And so Anya looked into it and realized for all the time and effort it would take for us to go solar, why don't we just take the whole neighborhood solar? And that's really what happened. The boys canvassed up and down the neighborhood, and that launched a group that got about 40 neighbors to go solar together. Word of the group spread around the community, and sort of more of these buying bulk purchase groups started. And fast forward to today, we work across the country to help people uh go solar, learn about solar energy where needed, you know, push for policies that enable folks to go solar and really just serve as an all-around resource for uh folks who have questions about going solar.

SPEAKER_01:

So you were looking to harness strength and numbers when it comes to actually purchasing the solar panels. Did that also help at the um county level in terms of obtaining permits?

SPEAKER_00:

It does. You know, I think in a couple of ways. Certainly from just the process of going solar from an installer perspective. I think at that time, particularly the market was very sort of bespoke, one-off. I do this home, I do that home. And so you know, each time you're doing a new home, you're going to the county permitting office, pulling permits, uh, going through all that. And so having a larger base of customers who are ready to go solar, you can save some trips, and so that lowers the cost that helps people with the permitting process. But also, the more people in a community who go solar or even are interested in going solar, they can work with their county permitting office to streamline the rules, cut red tape, uh potentially lower fees. And so the more people that we we get interested in going solar, the more we can do to lower these barriers.

SPEAKER_01:

I totally understand the economy of scale. This initial launch was 40 homeowners. Where in the country was this best?

SPEAKER_00:

In Washington, D.C.

SPEAKER_01:

In DC. And was it what were these 40 homes affiliated with a mandatory homeowners association or no?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't believe so, no. No, I don't think it was I don't think it was in an those folks were necessarily in NHOA, but we've certainly, uh as we've grown, helped folks who who live in in HOAs navigate the process of going solar and sometimes that And we're going to pull Dixie into that conversation too about navigating the homeowners association restrictions.

SPEAKER_01:

Let me ask you, so what role does SUN play? And and SUN, again, is the acronym for the organization, which is Solar United Neighbors. What role does SUN play in terms of vetting the installers? Because I imagine that's kind of one of the hurdles. You know, a lot of people want to save on costs. Um, they may want to install solar energy devices for a variety of reasons, either because um it it's a climate-based issue for them, uh, it could be a cost issue for them, it could even be an aesthetic issue for them. Who knows? But I imagine one of the hurdles is always okay, where do I find people to do this? And how do I know if I'm getting a good installer? So does Sun play a role in terms of vetting installers locally?

SPEAKER_00:

So we we have a couple of models that we use to help people go solar. The initial model we started with called our solar co-ops. And these work by engaging a group in a community, usually county or sort of metro area, um to go solar together. And so once we get about 25, 50, depending on the community, you know, folks, households signed up, we will solicit a bid for proposals from local installers. There's sort of a streamlined response template that they you know fill in. And then once we've compiled those bids, a selection committee made up of solar co-op members review each bid, and depending on the needs and interests of the group, we'll select an installer. We also, over the past couple of years, have worked with a program called Solar Switch or sorry, Switch Together. Uh, that's former name. So we worked with a program called Switch Together, where uh a company will come in and vet a number of installers in a community, and then people who sign up for that program will have an opportunity to receive a proposal from those companies. And so that's how that process works.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you have a minimum number of homeowners that you need to form a solar co-op?

SPEAKER_00:

Varies from market to market in the sense that you know, in maybe a less densely populated, more rural community, you know, if you maybe have 10, 15 installers say, okay, actually, that's a pretty good number for me. I'm gonna bid on this, whereas in a more urbanized area, you you may want 50, 75 folks before installers will will bid. So it just really varies by community.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'm thinking I have some very large homeowners associations here in South Florida that I represent. Some have more than 4,000 homes. What if we could only get, let's say, 100 out of those 44,000 homes to say we want to do a solar cooperative? Would Sun still work with those 100 homeowners?

SPEAKER_00:

I think we we could we could look at it. You know, I I don't want to speak for our GoSolar team, but I know we're always looking to help people go solar. In addition to the book purchase groups that we we do, we also have our pre-solar help desk where folks can call in, regardless of whatever stage they are in um the process and get their questions about going solar answered. So if that's getting help uh with a roof review, we'll we'll take a satellite, yeah, look at a satellite image of their home and decide and tell them, hey, this is a good fit for solar, may not be a good fit for solar. Uh we'll also look at proposals, so help folks compare. Hey, I've got proposals from company A, company B, company C. Can you help me sort of figure out apples to apples, what maybe makes most sense for my family? And then, you know, even post-install, if folks are having issues with their system, issues with their installer, we can uh intervene and and and help folks walk through next steps there.

SPEAKER_01:

How formal a structure does the local cooperative need to be? In other words, are they actually creating a business entity, Ben, setting up articles and of incorporation and and bylaws, partnership agreements? How how formal does this need to be?

SPEAKER_00:

It it's not formal. And in fact, uh through the the process, folks are still signing individual contracts with the installer.

SPEAKER_01:

That was my next question. So individual homeowners are the ones signing the contracts.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So we've been talking about individual homes installing these solar devices. Let's take a 2,500 square foot home in a sunny location like where I'm where I'm sitting. I'm sitting in South Florida. How much power can solar panels generate? I and I assume it me it depends on the number of panels you install, correct?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it depends on the number of panels you install, you know, what the shape of your roof is. Uh I think, but it also depends on how much electricity you're using. Typically, a home solar system will generate anywhere between one-third and two-thirds of your power needs. So, you know, if you're a home that you've got a couple of kids who are always running hot showers and you've got a number of electricity, you know, a number of of uh high energy usage electricity, electric devices, you know, you may be able to power less than if you've got you know a ranch house with you know passive solar and other sort of energy efficiency uh kind of things. It really depends. Like I said, I think one third to two-thirds is a good baseline.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's annual usage.

SPEAKER_00:

Annual usage, yes.

SPEAKER_01:

132, that's pretty significant. So let's say we've got the 2500 square foot home and we cover the roof with the panels. Approximate cost on that?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh I think you're looking probably 12,000, 15,000. Again, that's a that's a ballpark.

SPEAKER_01:

Ballpark, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's that's what what I would would guess for a home.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you have any data at Sun as to how quickly most homeowners recoup their investment?

SPEAKER_00:

That varies pretty widely from market to market. Uh in addition to the cost to install, which can vary from market to market because of a number of factors, permitting costs, labor costs, vary pretty widely. There's also the incumbent cost of electricity, or in other words, how much are you saving by offsetting your usage? So if you're in a market with really expensive electricity, your system likely pays off more quickly than it does in a market with cheaper electricity. By the same token, you know, are there local incentives like solar renewable energy credits? Some states have uh markets where utilities need to buy credits to offset their energy production. So that's one way that we can increase the turnaround period. I would say anywhere from three to five in maybe some of the strongest markets for solar to seven to twelve in in markets where the economics are a bit more challenging, but it it can vary honestly sometimes from utility territory to utility.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it depends on local government policies, state policies. Because as you said, and I've read about this, in some states, some local governments, they will give tax credits for the reduced strain on the on their grids. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00:

So locally the incentives usually aren't tax credits, they're uh what are called renewable energy credits. And so the way these work is these are states that require utilities to either sell or procure a certain percentage of their electricity from renewable sources. And so one way they can meet those requirements is to buy these credits from homeowners the same way that you might buy a stock or a bond. And making that purchase is is you know money back into your pocket as a solar homeowner and it helps you more quickly offset the uh cost of your investment into solar.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. I know we've been uh focusing for the last couple of minutes on solar panels sitting on top of roofs, but there's other solar devices out there, right? There's solar shingles, skylights, windows, solar water heaters, solar lighting. Lighting's a big one in our community associations, especially in our condos where we've got a lot of lighting around the landscaping, around the pool and elsewhere. Um, even driveway carports, I think, can be used for solar energy. Can you just talk briefly about the different kinds of devices that can be used to generate solar energy?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. So I think the ones that folks are probably most familiar with are uh solar PV or photovoltaic uh panels that we've been talking about. That's the technology that converts sunlight into energy. Um second most common, I think probably particularly there in Florida is the solar water heating. So you have sunlight heating either water or some kind of fluid to provide heat to a pool or uh home heating. Those are probably the two, um I think probably most common that folks are used to. And then you have, as you said, you know, passive solar or solar lighting, you know, ways that you can use natural light to provide warmth or or light to your home.

SPEAKER_01:

Right now, what would you say the percentage? Is it mostly still people using solar panels, Ben, as opposed to these other devices?

SPEAKER_00:

I think certainly over the last 10 to 15 years, panels have become the most prominent as technology has improved and this as the cost has come down. I think that certainly supplanted solar water heating, which was probably you know before the the boom in in PV solar was the most common way that folks use uh solar energy for their own.

SPEAKER_01:

I used to have solar panels for my to heat my pool. I want to ask you later because I know I know I wasn't doing a good job maintaining those panels. I think we stuck them up there and forgot about them for a while. But with that, Dixie, you've been waiting so patiently. Yeah. I want to ask you to talk to us a little bit about, first of all, can you walk us through your decision to go solar? Like what motivated you?

SPEAKER_02:

We built a house in Cincinnati here uh in April of 23. And my husband and I had been talking about solar for quite some time before we moved here from Michigan. So in January of 2024, we started the process. So we uh contacted the HOA to get permission, and that was a mistake. Um, because what we found later was it wasn't even in the guidelines that solar needed permission. So we could have just installed it and dealt with that, but uh we're rule followers, so we asked for permission, we were denied. In February, we went back and appealed uh with new information, we were denied. And it was always about aesthetics. They wanted us to put the panels on the back of the house. Well, the back of our house is up against a wooded area and gets very little sunlight. And um, the installer we'd been talking to said that he wouldn't even put it up if it had to be in the back, that it had to be in the front to get the benefit.

SPEAKER_01:

And they wanted the back, Dixie, because that was not visible from the street.

SPEAKER_02:

That's correct. They want everything in the back that already joined us. And uh so at that point we started looking for other options. We almost gave up, but my husband was a stickler. I would have given up, I think, because I just was worried about conflict, I think. But about that time we found an attorney who had some experience with us, and uh he introduced us to information about um Senate Bill 61 in Ohio, which says if you if you want solar, they shouldn't be able to stop you. And there, I mean, it's a lot, it's that's a very simple explanation, but Senator Lewis Blessing um in Ohio had uh championed a bill also. Um and so that's kind of where we were. So go ahead.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you know Dipsy if the association was represented by counsel and if they sought a legal opinion when they denied you twice?

SPEAKER_02:

They said that they did. We never heard from that attorney. We don't know who that attorney was, um, but they believed obviously that they could win, despite there being legislation to the contrary, to support installation of solar panels.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, that's why I well, that's why I asked, because look, we reference this is called take it to the board. I'm an association attorney. Uh, I'm asked to write those opinions. But like Ohio, Florida does have laws on the books that support renewable energy. For instance, in Florida, we also have language on our statute books, in our statute books that says that an HOA cannot prohibit a homeowners from installing what's called zeroscaping, which is drought-resistant landscaping. Now, it may not be pretty, it could be rocks and cats and what have you, but it you know, it may not fit the preferred aesthetic of a Florida Homeowners Association, but it's protected on the focus of public policy. So I that's why I was wondering if your HOA had gotten a legal opinion beforehand before they took the step of denying the installation. By the way, I want to compliment you for being a rule follower. I wish more people would do that, um, because that that creates a lot of problems when you don't. And I also think your concerns about conflict were not insignificant because it's a living together relationship, right?

SPEAKER_02:

That's correct. That's correct. And my husband wasn't concerned about that. So uh so he he pushed forward. When I was holding back, he was pushing forward. And we had different reasons. He um was all about the economic advantages, and I was more I of course I wanted the economic advantage, but I was really more interested in the clean energy part of it.

SPEAKER_01:

How many homes in your homeowners association, Dixie?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know the answer to that for sure, but I'm going to say maybe something like seven to eight hundred. Oh, so it's a huge community.

SPEAKER_01:

You were the first homeowners that wanted to install solar energy?

SPEAKER_02:

Actually, one of those board members had solar energy, but it was on the back of her house because her house faced the other way. So she could have it on the back of her house, but they are very few. Ben, do you want to come to Cincinnati?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, well, I was I wanted to bring Ben into this conversation because Cincinnati, I don't know. I grew up in Chicago. It was relatively sunny, but how many sunny days do you need a year, Ben, to actually realize the benefit of solar energy?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so it's interesting. You know, if you look at a map of it's called insulation, uh basically how much sunlight a place gets, if you look at a map of Germany, which has far more uh solar energy than the United States does, their average insulation is equal to that of Seattle, Washington, which is not as that's not so sunny.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't think of that as sunny.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's not the most sunny place uh that that you can find. And so what really determines, you know, can you go solar is much more the local policies in place, the local cost of energy. In fact, just earlier this year I was talking with a gentleman up in northern Alaska, and they are looking to do more solar up there because you know it it works there. So if it works in Alaska, it works in Germany, it works in Seattle, it can work in Cincinnati.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So Dixie, how did you hear about Sun?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh, we had a friend who had engaged with the attorney that we worked with, and we got the number from her and called and he called us back, and the rest is history.

SPEAKER_01:

Now, did you work with did you work to form the local cooperative that Ben discussed at the outset?

SPEAKER_02:

No, we were uh we were a one-shot deal. In fact, the HOA, as they finally gave up and agreed that we could do this, they also put uh regulations into the agreement they uh to prevent anyone else from doing solar. So we're not sure where it stands now if our neighbor wants to do it. They they don't have a clear path to it.

SPEAKER_01:

Even though that law is still on the books.

SPEAKER_02:

Correct.

SPEAKER_01:

That'll be interesting. You're an interesting test case. Yeah, that will be very interesting. Okay, are your panels installed right now and functional? Yes, yes, doing well. Doing well, okay. I am glad to hear that. Did you get any and you installed them where you wanted to install them in the front? We did.

SPEAKER_02:

We did.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And have you gotten any pushback from neighbors?

SPEAKER_02:

Not a word, not a word. The HOA tried to convince us that the neighbors were all against it, but we haven't lived here long. We don't know our neighbors well. We didn't go door to door. So we really don't know if that's accurate or not.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I've had HOAs that have been in existence for decades, and of course, trends change over time, aesthetic uh preferences change over time. I remember a client that that prohibited um metal roofs in Florida. Well, now metal roofs are really popular in South Florida for a variety of reasons. And they asked to um revise their architectural control standards to permit them. And by the way, Ben, have you seen Tesla's full metal roof? Have you seen that roof that Tesla puts out? The whole roof is a solar panel.

SPEAKER_00:

I I know they have the the solar shingles, but I've not I've not had a chance to see that uh in person in person yet. But that certainly is is one pathway if if folks have aesthetic concerns.

SPEAKER_01:

It looks like a metal roof, it looks like a metal roof. So it's not panels. The whole roof itself is one solar panel. It only starts at$300,000, though. I'm not I'm not sure how many people are actually going to take that option. So Ben, I want to get back to you and kind of build on what Disney has has been discussing about her challenge with our homeowners association. So homeowners are often seen as gatekeepers of neighborhood aesthetics. A lot of them have what we call architectural control committees where they go around and they do their work, you know, their walkthrough to make sure everybody's home looks nice. Um when it comes to renewable energy, sometimes the aesthetics can certainly be at odds with renewable goals. So what has Sun done to create any sort of arguments that like a homeowner like Dixie and her husband could use when meeting with the board?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. So I think there are a couple of things that we found. I think one, the home value argument, right? That adding solar, you know, having a sort of permanent way to lower energy cost is a value add to the home. Uh you know, I think studies have shown that it can add thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars to a home's resale value. And then on aesthetics too, I had a great conversation uh with a colleague about this recently. And the point she made was the aesthetics are about what you're saying about yourself to the world, right? And so what I think having solar on your home says is I'm somebody who cares about my community. I'm gonna be here for a while because these panels last 20, 25 years, and uh you know, I want to take control of where my energy comes from and and lower you know costs for for everyone. And so I think those are great things that a solar panel on your home says about you, and and so I think they're aesthetically pleasing.

SPEAKER_01:

I haven't looked at a panel for a long time. I know there's some in my neighborhood, but are there some with a higher raised profile, a flatter profile, different colors? Are there different aesthetic choices on these?

SPEAKER_00:

There are now. There there are you know different ways it can be installed on the roof, either higher or lower profile. There's also different colors. There are you know blue panels, there are black panels now that you know some folks prefer the aesthetic aesthetics of. And yeah, I think there are more options now than than before.

SPEAKER_01:

And uh and Dixie, when I get back to you, I want to ask if you think it's gonna increase your resale value. That was a qu a question I had. But before I go there, Ben, Dixie was a fortunate, Dixie and her husband to be living in Ohio, where there is a law on the books that protects renewable energy, even in the face of homeowners association restrictions. Is your group working in terms of grassroots advocacy with any other states to kind of encourage those legislatures to also adopt renewable energy laws?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so about half the states, now a little more than half the states, have laws on the books to this effect. We've worked in a number of places, Virginia, Ohio, Indiana, Minnesota, uh, you know, on this issue. I don't know if there's anything anywhere right now that we you know are working. But if you know folks are listening to this and they happen to live in a state that doesn't have um those protections, we would be happy to chat with you and and see if we can help, see how we can help out.

SPEAKER_01:

So Dixie, is there maintenance, regular maintenance needed on your panels?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh-huh. Not that we've been told at this point. I mean, they never been up there very long, but uh not really, not a lot.

SPEAKER_01:

So uh I'm sitting down here in Florida, in South Florida specifically, and we have a six-month hurricane season down here. We're like smack dab in the middle of it, heading into October. Late September, early October tends to be the busiest um hurricane months. And I'm, you know, I really shouldn't even be saying this because we haven't even had one of those, you know, cones of death commercials coming towards us at the end of this season. But uh I would imagine that there has to be some storm prep. You're in Ohio. I didn't think you'd get hurricanes, but I do remember when I grew up in Chicago, we got uh tornadoes. So I'm not sure what else your potential uh natural disasters are. But uh I guess that that's a question for you, Ben. Is there storm prep that needs to be done for these panels?

SPEAKER_00:

Not really storm prep. Uh you know, speaking specifically to Florida, the panels are a wind rated to you know withstand high hurricane force winds. Basically, any storm that would damage the panels is probably going to take your roof off. Um, in terms of as a Midwesterner myself, I've grew up in Nebraska, you know, hail can be a concern. But again, that's I think where where panels provide protection to the roof uh you know against all but the most heavy, you know, heavy hail damage. So you know there there are actual uh storm benefits to having solar installed plus. You know, if you have solar with battery storage and the power goes out, you're able to keep your lights on uh you know and probably some critical loads uh protected as well. And so that's another way that solar provides resiliency in the face of storms.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh is there any regular maintenance that needs to be performed on these panels?

SPEAKER_00:

Not really. The you know, the it's there aren't any moving parts. You know, you may need to replace the inverter, which is the device that changes the kind of electricity. So the panels produce direct current, most homes, vacuums, microwaves, refrigerators all operate on an alternating current. And so um the inverter then just switches over that um current that may need to be replaced during um you know during the system's lifetime. But other than that, uh you know, most places you're getting enough rain that you know you're dusting, you know, any dust or debris or dirt that accumulates on the panels just gets naturally washed away. So they're pretty much set and forget. Um systems will come with a monitoring device that will tell you how much output they're providing that you can always check on. And if you see, oh wait, you know, this is not producing what we thought it would, you know, you should follow up with your installer and and and have them come out and check that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I was gonna ask that question. I'm sure there's apps now for people who have installed the panels, right? When I had them years and years ago, it was we had no idea how much energy, we just knew if the pool felt warm, that was great. Dixie, are you using an app to kind of uh kind of see how much energy the panels are producing for you?

SPEAKER_02:

I have to confess I've not looked at it except my husband puts it in my face every once in a while. I'm like, look at this, look at this. He watches it very closely and he's very pleased.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's kind of cool. Now, Dixie is in Ohio, so she's gonna get snow sitting on top of those panels in the winter. Is that any sort of a problem?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh not usually. The panels are usually much warmer than the roof, so they'll uh you know melt that snow off pretty, pretty quickly. And when you know you install solar, the sort of calculations on payback and output are taken with the idea that, okay, in the winter it's going to be colder or there might be some snow. That should be factored into your um estimation. So there shouldn't be a need to clear the snow off the panels.

SPEAKER_01:

Are there any roofs then that are not really uh eligible for panel installation?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, typically we advise that you. Your roof should be less than 10 years old. That's just to make sure it can you know stand the weight of the panels. Different types of roofs have, I think, different ways you would affix the panels to them. And not every installer necessarily has a lot of experience with every kind of uh roof type. I'm here thinking particularly of slate roofs for parts of the country to have that. And so you know our advice to folks as they're looking for an installer is make sure that the installer you've chosen is one who's familiar with your roof type and material.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. You've got clay, you know, clay tile, which I have on my house. It's a more Mediterranean look, but you've also got the um the almost kind of cotswolds look, the wooden shingles, the shake shingles, and all different. And then there's flat versus steeped, but if I'm hearing you correctly, it's more about the roof age and what it can what it can tolerate in terms of load bearing as opposed to style material.

SPEAKER_00:

Roof age, and also do you have a chimney? Do you have dormers? Like, is there enough open space where you can install a long enough string of panels to make it financially worth your while, basically?

SPEAKER_01:

Dixie, did you have to reach out to your insurance agent after you installed them? Was that any sort of an issue with insurance coverage for the panels?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. I mean, there were lots of things to do like that. We it was it was a busy time when we were getting ready to install with uh homeowners association as well as insurance, as well as scheduling, understanding how it was going to interact with our uh provider. Uh, and we do get credit back. We produce more than we use. That's a nice, a nice help.

SPEAKER_01:

That's a really big benefit. Yes, it is. So now that you've been through the fire, so to speak, are you at all open to helping other homeowners who might be interested and maybe doing battle with their homeowners association on an installation of solar panels?

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. We'd love to share our experience for what it's worth to help others. The whole refusal on the part of the HOHOA without solid reasoning, in our opinion, uh is a lot of motivation to reach out and help others. It's important work.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I I think it's great that you're open to doing that. And you know, we've got a really wide listening audience of people all throughout the community association industry throughout the country who probably don't even know about some. They don't know whether or not to check because you didn't know to check. And it sounds like maybe the association attorney hadn't checked whether or not there are laws on the books in a particular state that would support the installation of any device that's generating renewable energy. Right. So Ben, Congress decided to phase out the 30% residential solar power tax credits this year. They're ending at the end of this year. Under that law, homeowners can still claim a 30% tax credit for solar systems, which are installed and operational by December 31st of this year. Dixie and her husband, they're fine because there's oh and it's operating. But is is that what has to happen? It can't be that you're midway through or you've pulled a permit and it's been approved and you've signed the contract. If it's not, if the panels are not actually sitting on the roof and functioning, they're not going to get the tax credit.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So with the caveat that you know, I'm not a tax attorney. Our reading of the law and guidance is that your best bet for ensuring that you are eligible for the credit is to get the system uh up and ready to operate.

SPEAKER_01:

What up and ready to operate? Do we know whether or not if it's it's operable, but it just hasn't passed final inspection by local inspectors, whether or not that tax credit would still be available?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's a good question. It's not clear. I think to be as conservative as possible on this, you know, if if your system is operating, you'll be eligible for the tax credit. Um but you know, again, that's um you know something we encourage folks to talk with the tax professional about uh as they're you know as they're installing. And you know, I would say too, if you've got you know somebody, if you're listening to this you know now, it's almost certainly probably too late to start. Um you know, if you're if you're looking to go solar and getting a tax credit, just because you're gonna need at least uh you know some time to research an installer, to select an installer, get the permitting, uh, and and get installed. I know from talk to installers, their um their dance cards are are pretty full right now of people trying to rush to meet the stud money.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you have any sense of how many people are gonna be hurt by rolling back these tax credits?

SPEAKER_00:

So I think I think it's hard to say because I think you know it's it's not so much as much the the folks who you know want to go solar and can't get it as much as you know, we're already seeing you know some pullback in the industry, you know, installers laying folks off, going out of business, costing us good local jobs. But then what does that mean next year, two years, three years down the road when folks are looking at the solar market? And so I think in a lot of ways it's it's maybe taking the progress back three or four years in terms of of pricing and sort of where the market is. But you know, I think looking forward, you know, there are other ways and other things that we can do to ensure that solar is affordable for more folks. We talked a little bit about permitting, so making sure that the permitting process is as streamlined as possible, that customers and installers aren't waiting weeks to get a permit approval. There's also the interconnection process, which is the approval that you need from your utility. And so working with local and state governments to ensure that utilities aren't slow walking those interconnections. And so in that way, we can lower some of the so-called soft costs of going solar so that we are able to uh have as as many people uh who want to be able to invest in in saving money with solar.

SPEAKER_01:

I I'm trying to wrap my head around what the possible public policy reason would have been behind rolling back these credits because is it not irrefutable that if, like for instance, Dixie and her husband, that home is not drawing as much on the grid, the electrical grid in Cincinnati? So if that's the case, and I'm also thinking about Texas and and and their issues last year, what would be the possible public policy reason for not incentivizing people to use alternate sources of renewable energy if it reduces the strain on local infrastructure?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Donna, that's a good question. I think a really important point as well that you know investing in solar doesn't just lower costs for folks who have the system on the roof, right? But, you know, let's say um, you know, Dixie, when you're you're not home, you know, your lights are off, you know, you don't have anything running, that extra electricity that your system is producing goes to your neighbors. Um having more local solar energy in our electric system lowers costs for everybody because you're not needing to build additional transition and distribution lines, you're not having to run uh what are called sort of peaker plants, right? These usually uh gas plants that you know utility will turn on when demand is high. And so there you know really are benefits to solar for folks who don't even necessarily have it on the roof. Not to mention, you know, Donna, we talked earlier about storms and hurricanes and things like that. By um creating a you know an energy system where it is more decentralized. We're not just relying on a big centralized power plant somewhere far afield, when storms hit, when people have local resiliency, that makes a better energy system for everyone.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I couldn't agree more. I think I know the answer to this question, Dixie, but I'm assuming uh you and your husband, even if you were installing this next year after the tax credits, the residential 30% tax credits are no longer available, you still would have wanted to install.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. We didn't even know for sure about the uh credit when we were going after this. So, yes, the credit is wonderful and helpful, but it is not the reason that we did it.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh has this whole experience made either you or your husband want to run for the board, Dipsy?

SPEAKER_02:

Actually, we're getting a little pressure to do that, but I I don't know that we will.

SPEAKER_01:

I wouldn't listen, I would encourage you it does, but you're in a big, you're in a really large community. But I I served on my homeowners association board for two years, and I like to say it was the longest two years of my life. Um and our big, our big fight in the community was trees. Not that I I had one board member and he wanted to put a certain kind of tree in every front yard. And we have all different architectural types. As I said, my my house is Mediterranean. So we want we want you know palm trees and we want all different kinds of palm trees. And uh and that board member wanted live oak, and and that was beautiful down our main street. We had a beautiful live oak canopy, and it made sense there. Um there was some misinterpretation of the governing documents, misinterpretation of what easements are, and misinterpretation of statutes. So I'm sure, listen, even if you uh don't, you or your husband don't decide to run on the board, I I think your experience really bears repeating to some people. And in you, I have to applaud you because you went about it the right way. You were not, you didn't come out of the gate swinging. And I always recommend that to people living in community associations, including my my family members and friends who run into you know obstacles in their in their associations, is you want to do the way you did it, which is exploratory at first. And then if you think you're get not getting the correct information, maybe a little more exploration.

SPEAKER_02:

Well well, that was the goal. The goal was to uh stay friends while we uh got this job done. And we were not completely uh successful with that, but enough that we felt okay with ourselves. We could sleep at night.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I think you did a great job. Um any any significant policy wins that you have in mind when we discussed Sun?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so in addition to those wins, specifically on this topic with uh HOAs that I mentioned, uh, you know, I think we've been really successful in a number of states, Florida included, for protecting net metering, right, which is the system by which, as I mentioned, you know, Dixie's not home, her system's producing more than she's using. That net metering ensures she uh earns fair credit for that electricity that's being used uh by her neighbors. And so we've had successful fights there in Florida, uh just recently here, uh up here in uh western part of Virginia. And so that's as we talk about you know what does a post-tax credit world look like for solar, ensuring that solar owners can continue to earn uh fair credit for the electricity that their systems produce is going to be really important.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, the analogy I wanted to make a few minutes ago was regarding the FCC regulations on satellite dishes. So the FCC lobbied and they got um telecommunication guidelines in place that said a homeowner's association, Dixie, cannot require you if you want to get a satellite, they can't tell you you have to put it in the back of your house where you can't get a good signal. And something analogous like that, Ben, could probably be useful when it comes to solar panels. That it's not even just that you can't prohibit it, you also cannot have requirements that impact the usefulness of the device.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And and that's an argument that that we we've seen as well. And I think that gets to the question a lot of these these laws, if you've read them, they say, you know, reasonable restrictions, right? And so what's a reasonable restriction, you know, and I would say, for example, in Dixie's case, if they're saying, oh, well, you got to put it on the back, well, if that doesn't, if that makes your system not economically viable, then that's not a reasonable restriction.

SPEAKER_01:

So any final thoughts for our listeners? Let's start with you, Dixie. I mean, we've got people listening, we've got board members, we've got residents, we've got managers, uh, we have other vendors in the association space. Any final thoughts on this topic?

SPEAKER_02:

I'd say if you are considering it and it's and it makes sense for your area and your home, go for it. It um it feels like a good thing that we were able to accomplish. And I went in it with my knees shaking. So um I'd say gird your loins and go into the battle.

SPEAKER_01:

And Ben, any final thoughts?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, to to help uh the loin girding on our website, www.soulunited neighbors.org. We have stories like Dixies, but also guides to help you navigate the HOA process and working with your HOA board and your community to educate them about the benefits of solar panels. Because I think that's what a lot of this comes down to is education and helping the board understand that this is something that's positive, not just for you, the homeowner, but really the whole uh community.

SPEAKER_01:

Ben, Dixie, I really want to thank you both for joining us today.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, thank you very much for the opportunity. This has been a good conversation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, thank you so much, Santa. This has been terrific.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to follow and rate us on your favorite podcast platform or visit ticket to the board.com for more ways to connect.