Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger
Take It To The Board with Donna DiMaggio Berger
How To Spot, Stop, And Report Modern Scams -- with Paul Greenwood, Former Head of Elder Abuse Prosecution Unit
The most dangerous scam isn’t the one you’ve never heard of, it’s the one that feels urgent, secret, and strangely personal. Take It To The Board host Donna DiMaggio Berger sits down with Paul Greenwood, who led San Diego’s elder abuse prosecution unit for 22 years, to unpack how fraudsters weaponize emotion, AI, and routine technology to separate people from their savings. From “Granny, I’m in jail” calls to deepfake audio, from bogus jury-duty warrants to polished romance profiles, they trace the tactics that work across ages and communities—and show you how to avoid disaster.
Together, Donna and Paul explain why the core script rarely changes: act now, tell no one, pay in untraceable ways. He shares the S.C.A.M. method—Stop, Check, Ask, Mention—as a simple, repeatable defense that anyone can use before clicking a link or transferring funds. They dig into voice cloning, video generation, and how call centers in repurposed casinos run large-scale romance-investment schemes. You’ll hear why isolation is a critical red flag, how caregivers and even professionals can exploit access, and how a short letter to your parent’s bank can trigger real oversight. They also describe the first-hour playbook if you’ve been hit: contact your bank, file a police report, and submit to ic3.gov while reaching out to merchants or crypto kiosks to freeze wallets fast.
For condo and HOA leaders, this conversation doubles as a toolkit for community safety: host fraud-prevention workshops, use clear language in newsletters, and create a simple reporting pathway that protects privacy while mobilizing help. Paul’s courtroom stories reveal the true cost of fraud—lost homes, shattered health, and lingering shame—and why judges, banks, and families must treat it with the seriousness it deserves. You’ll leave with practical steps, tested scripts, and resources to share with parents, neighbors, and boards.
Conversation Highlights:
- A breakdown of the most common scams targeting consumers today
- The three red flags every listener should memorize before answering a call, opening an email, or clicking a link
- How victims can move past shame and take action—reporting scams and starting the recovery process
- Which scams are surging right now (romance, tech support, government impostors, investment and crypto) and what makes each one so convincing
- The one bank or retailer safeguard that could prevent a significant portion of scam losses if implemented tomorrow
- Debunking the myth that only older generations fall victim to scams—and how Millennials and Gen Z are targeted differently
- How HOAs and condo associations can play a meaningful role in fraud prevention, from newsletters and lobby screens to manager training
- Red flags that expose illegitimate door-to-door contractors after storms—and what associations should communicate to residents right away
- A one-minute checklist listeners can use to protect themselves and their families, covering phones, email, banking, passwords, and credit freezes
- The single scam line everyone should hang up on immediately
Related Links:
Hi everyone, I'm Attorney Donna DiMaggio Berger, and this is Take It to the Board, where we speak condo and HOA. Think you're safe from scams? Most Americans are getting hit with multiple scam attempts every week, even if they don't always notice them. In 2024, Americans lost over$12 billion to scams. That's real money disappearing from households across the country. In 2024, the FTC processed over 1.1 million identity theft reports and 2.6 million fraud reports. Every day, thousands more phone, email, or account frauds are being reported, with many of them never making the headlines. Today on Ticket to the Board, we're fortunate to be joined by Paul Greenwood, who spent 22 years leading San Diego's elder abuse prosecution unit, trying hundreds of elder abuse and fraud cases. Since retiring from the DA's office, he's become one of the country's go-to experts on protecting older adults, training police and prosecutors, consulting on cases, and speaking with AARP's fraud watch network to help the public recognize and avoid scams. After listening to today's episode, you will hopefully be able to spot, stop, and prosecute scams targeting not just older adults, but all types of people and their communities. So, Paul, welcome to take it to the board. Thank you, Donna. That's an impressive resume. And I didn't even get into it. I just can't I just consolidated it because I guess we're going to see your expertise come out as we have this conversation. So can we just start with the various types of scams that are being perpetrated?
SPEAKER_01:Sure. And you know, there's one common theme through it all typically, which is there's an urgent situation which requires your immediate attention, which also requires you to divest yourself of money. So it could come in the form of this is the IRS, uh, you are delinquent on your taxes, and there's going to be a warrant for your arrest unless you paid this amount of money. Or, hi, this is your grandson calling you from jail. Uh, I need bail money, but don't tell anybody. Uh so can you please send it in the form of gift cards? Or, hi, this is Sergeant Harris from your local sheriff's department. Uh, we have a warrant for your arrest, but you could avoid it because you didn't come to jury duty. I mean, so it goes on, uh, Donna. Uh and you know, the fraudsters are uh thinking up new methods every single day with that common theme of you need to act now, you shouldn't tell anybody else, and we need to convert it into um forms of currency that nobody else will be able to trace, such as gift cards or cryptocurrency, something like that.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I'm currently getting text messages saying just what you said, I need to urgently pay a beeper bill. I think that's a medical device. I'm not even sure what it is. I always hit delete and report junk. Is there anything else I can do to stop it other than just hitting that delete and report junk?
SPEAKER_01:Well, if you've not been defrauded, there's very little you can do. I mean, people ask me all the time, well, can I put myself on a do not call? Sure, you can do that, but the fraudsters don't pay any attention to that. So they'll still plague us. And so the only thing I can really recommend is that if you do get a phone call that you do not recognize, don't answer it. Because once we answer any phone call or or even open up a uh an email, the fraudsters register that. Okay, there's a live human being with a pulse. I'm gonna share that information.
SPEAKER_00:We got a live one.
SPEAKER_01:We got a live one. I'm gonna share that with whoever. And so we get bombarded with all these uh calls. And and since I came of Medicare age, you know, I'm 73 now. I mean, they're literally every day. My I turn my landline phone ring off because every day I get five or six calls um claiming to be from Medicare or on their behalf. It's ridiculous.
SPEAKER_00:You know, this is why I'm so glad we're having you on the episode, because I worry about my parents. My dad is 96, my mom is 92. They were kind of fantastic. They're still my mom's sharp as anything because she got a call a couple years ago, not that many, and it was the scam you talked about, which is she thought it was my son Ryan, who said, you know, and he even knew to call her Grammy, which is interesting because that is her nickname. I guess it was a hit or miss. A lot of people use Grammy, but he said Grammy, and he said, I'm in trouble and I need your help. And you know what my mom said to him? She said, Ryan, I know if you were in help, if you needed help, you'd be calling your mother.
SPEAKER_01:Good one. Good one.
SPEAKER_00:She hung up and called me and said, Is there? And I said, Oh my gosh, mom, I'm so proud. Because no, that's a scam.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And now we're encouraging people, especially around Thanksgiving time where families and multi-generations are getting together. This is a topic of conversation that they should be having. And for example, say, okay, let's choose a code word so that if we get this uh phone call in the future, we'll just ask the question, what's the code word? And hopefully no one's leaked it. And so that that is one way. I wouldn't rely on it 100%. I would say, yeah, that's one measure, but then always check with somebody else in the family before you ever commit to a financial decision.
SPEAKER_00:Are you seeing more deep fakes with the with the audio? Because that's the thing that really scares me. And one of the reasons why I said to my family that we need a code word, because I do this podcast, I do webinars. It's easy to get a copy of my voice. If you're out there, I think it's extremely easy to reproduce somebody's voice when you've got examples of it. Can you talk to us a little bit about how AI might be making your job, Paul, harder?
SPEAKER_01:Huge. Uh and it started with the audio fakes. Um, and so as you say, Donna, it only takes a few words uh that they can capture, and it can be on Facebook, Instagram, some social media. Then they can use that software to elongate those words into a whole paragraph of a phone call uh describing how they've been kidnapped or in jail. But now, thanks to this free uh version that um artificial intelligence offers through something called Sora, S-O-R-A, we can now, and I played with it the other night. It's frightening. You can uh go on your smartphone, uh they capture a picture of yourself, and then it will reproduce a video, and you can ask it to put you in a certain situation. So I said, okay, because I've always wanted to do this, Donna. I said, make me into a fighter pilot landing on an aircraft carrier. And it gave me everything. I was in my flight suit, I had my helmet, it was me, and I was talking, and I said, Well, that was a great landing. I mean, it's extraordinary now, through this software, what the craudsters can do. So, really, uh, there's no nowhere that we're safe. Uh, um, so we could get a video, we could get an audio message, uh, and that's why we have to verify before we do anything else.
SPEAKER_00:So, here at my firm, Paul, we have very robust fraud training. It's mandatory. Of course, if you screw up and when they do it, uh, you know, a fabricated attack, you have to take even additional training. But we go through 45 minutes of training that goes through all of this, they test you. What does the average person do, though? I mean, this is take it to the board. We've got a lot of people serving on boards and condos and co-ops and HOAs. We've got a lot of listeners who are just living in these communities, a lot of management professionals. How does the average person get that training? Because, you know, look, I'm getting that training through my law firm, and it's a large law firm. But what do you suggest for, you know, rank and file people, many of whom are retired. They don't have a court environment that teach this.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. And that's why um I've been reaching out to financial institutions for the last 30 years, saying you've got to offer fraud prevention seminars for your customers or a credit union for your members. And just in the last two weeks, Donna, I've been visiting um various communities in California that have independent living, assisted living, memory care, and skilled nursing. And I've been offering these fraud preventions uh to the residents and potential residents who are thinking of joining these communities. And that is one way of doing it. And when I share the tips, I tell them this is not based upon research, this is not something I've got from uh the internet. This is on real cases over 22 years that I've prosecuted. I think I know a little bit about how a fraudster's mind works. So I try to share that. So I think education, Donna, is key in all this. But I think that corporate America, particularly financial institutions, investment brokerages, HOAs, they have a duty and a responsibility to say, well, let's organize something here locally for our members, for our residents. Because, as you say, without that kind of training and saviness, a lot of people don't know how the grandma scam works or the Amazon scam works. And giving them this information up front may just help one person stop losing their life savings tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh, that's so important. Have you ever dealt with a situation, Paul, where the fraud is being committed by a person in a position of trust? And let me give you an example because I teach a lot of board certification classes here in Florida, because it's mandatory, the education. And sometimes it's a trusted individual, whether it's a manager, a bookkeeper, a board member. Um, do you approach that differently? Because a lot of the scams we're going to talk about today are nameless, faceless people, who knows where they're located. What about when it's a fraud when you know the person?
SPEAKER_01:And a lot of my fraud prevention presentations concentrate exactly on that. It starts, unfortunately, with the person closest to you. Uh, so a lot of the fraud cases that I prosecuted involve sons, grandsons, nieces, nephews. And they all had the same profile, Donna. They were all lazy, unemployed, addicted to drugs, alcohol, or gambling. And because of those addictions, uh, and because they didn't have any money, they stole from their relative. And it was typically jewelry or cash or using the debit card or the credit card. And so that that was one area. Then I would broaden it to caregivers. I have prosecuted too many caregivers. I mean, there's some wonderful caregivers out there, don't get me wrong, but there's also some very shady ones that unfortunately, if we don't do our homework on them, um, they're going to exploit us to the fullest. Because if you think, you know, they get access to our homes, there's typically very few cameras, and uh unfortunately the person they are, quote, caring for may have cognitive impairment. So it's pretty easy sometimes to steal from these folks. Then I've uh gone after the people that are in your home for a legitimate reason. Uh I mean, one of the cases was the carpet cleaner. He stuck his powered vacuum into the jewelry drawer in the bedroom and sucked the jewelry down the pipe into his truck. I've prosecuted termite fumigators who've put a tent over the house, told you to leave for 72 hours, and then of course they steal whatever they they can, which is valuable and portable. But then dealing with the people that you think you can trust most, I've bank managers, bank tellers, realtors, uh, bookkeepers, uh, one of my favorites, and I call it I call it a favorite, the Methodist choir director.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah. This is a good idea. I know, I know, exactly. Who created this thing. Um, I'm sponsoring uh people who've been uh affected by Katrina. Uh they're they're coming from New Orleans and they're gonna go to Houston, but they don't have any money. Would you join me in helping to uh boost their fund? That oh yes, of course I will. And he goes after the elderly female choristers and they give him$1,000,$1,500. Unknown to them, he takes that money to their local casino because he has a gambling addiction. I mean, so it goes on. And unfortunately, Donna, you and I are lawyers. You and I know there's some really corrupt, bad, dishonest lawyers out there. Yeah. Uh thankfully, not everybody, even though the jokes are all about us, not every one of us is crooked and corrupt. But there are some. And boy, when you are in a position as a you are the trustee, or you have power of attorney, or you are appointed as a fiduciary over an elderly person with dementia. Hey, the sky's the limit as to the damage you can cause. So you're right. Uh it's not just the anonymous person in the background on the internet, it can be very close to home.
SPEAKER_00:And that makes the fraud just all the more tragic. You've handled these cases, which you've got such a long career in doing so. Um, were you first of all, were you able in most of the cases to recover any of the stolen money or no?
SPEAKER_01:Great question. Unfortunately, for example, the sons, daughters, nieces who were addicted, the money that they converted from stealing the jewelry or whatever it was pretty much went with the addiction. So they went on the drugs or the alcohol or the gambling. With others, like professionals, uh, typically they sequestered the monies into accounts. So yeah, we could follow the money. And there were times when we were successful in recovering uh a lot of that money. And then there are other times which really frustrated me, Donna, when we would get to court, we would be talking about a plea negotiation, and the defense attorney would say, Well, of course, Mr. Greenwood, uh, if you go easy on the prison, we'll find the money. And you know, that really stinks, you know, because you want both. You want prison to teach a lesson and to hold these person accountable, but you also want the money back. But the victim is crying out, all I want is my money back. So there were times when, unfortunately, I I had to negotiate a deal where I was unhappy with the sentence, but at least the victim was happy.
SPEAKER_00:I imagine for many of the victims of these scams, the losses have had a just a devastating impact on their lifestyle, in on their ability to continue living wherever they were living, if the if, depending on how much money was taken from them, have you have you kept in touch with any of the victims over the years?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm glad you've raised that because this is something that I had to try to convince the judges about that fraud is a violent crime. You know, unfortunately, over the last 10 years, judges have been basically told we have overcrowding in prisons, therefore, only seem to prison the most violent offenders. And so when you get a fraud defendant, most judges are going to say, well, I'm just gonna give them probation and let them stay out. No, there are times when I would bring in photographs of my victim now compared to my victim before the fraud occurred, and I would show, judge, this person has lost weight, they've become depressed, they are isolated, they've lost their hold, they're in an assisted living now when they they should have been in their own home. They can't afford certain luxuries that they used to enjoy in life. So these are the things that I would really focus on. And now, Don, I get to work with victims through AARP Fraud Watch Network. And the times, for example, a lady in Montana who lost everything, she went from a 2,600 square foot home to a 550 square foot apartment. And she said, Paul, the hardest thing is when my grandchildren come over and they come over and they cry and they say, Grandma, why aren't you still in that beautiful home of yours? You know, so they they don't understand what happened. But it can have very serious consequences. And unfortunately, now we're also hearing of victims who've decided that it's not worth living, and so they take their lives.
SPEAKER_00:I was gonna say it's heartbreaking. You may have victims that can no longer afford their medication. So they're reducing the medication or cutting it out. That can have an impact on their lifespan. So you're right, it's a violent crime. Do you think judges are getting a little more sympathetic, a little more educated on the issue of these types of crimes?
SPEAKER_01:Some are, and I think more uh education of the bench needs to happen. And uh the the good thing about having a dedicated unit where the judges would know me coming in representing elderly victims. I mean, I would often get this reaction. I'd walk into a courtroom and the judge would look and go, oh no, here we go, another elderly victim. So, you know, that would actually have a positive effect because then they know what I'm gonna be asking for. They know some of the issues that I've already told them about in prior cases. Uh and so I think case by case, case by case, we would educate uh judges, but that needs to happen on a wide-scale basis.
SPEAKER_00:You know, Paul, when you get to a certain point in life, you start talking to your friends about issues, right? So, like at my stage, you know, I hear a lot from friends. And one friend actually told my husband, there's most, there's a sponge in most families. We talked about the children, the grandchildren. Um, how do you protect? I mean, what are the red flags if we're dealing with somebody like that? Obviously, if there's drug use or, you know, some sort of addiction, whether it's gambling, alcohol, or drugs, that can usually be uh discovered. But are there red flags where another family member could protect uh somebody, their family member from another family member who may be heading down this path of defrauding an elderly relative?
SPEAKER_01:You know, that's probably the most common question I get asked by adult children who, like you, Donna, have an elderly parent that they're worried about. And so I talk about one of the red flags is going to be isolation. If you find that you are being prevented from talking spontaneously, unannounced, to your parent by a third party, such as a relative, or you visit and you're not being allowed in the door because they say it's not a good time, that clearly is something that you should be investigating. And I say, don't hesitate to call your local county adult protective services. Let them do an unannounced welfare check to see what is uh going on. One practical tip that I give to adult children who are concerned about wanting to uh protect their parents' assets is I say, write a letter to your parents' bank or credit union. They're not going to talk to you on the phone, so don't try that. But just write a letter, because as you know, Donna, as being a lawyer, letters get responses. They get attention. And so I always say, write a letter. And in California, remind the bank that they are already a mandated reporter of suspected elder financial exploitation. And say, look, I'm concerned about my elderly uh father. Uh there's a new caregiver who's going to be coming into the house. Or Um, the niece has just moved in with my dad. Can you please keep a special eye on my father's bank account? And if you see anything unusual, which it goes outside of his normal banking practice, please report it as per your mandated obligation to adult protective services. And if you fail to do that, and I subsequently discover that there's been financial exploitation, then I will be asking you to make it right. If you if more adult children wrote that kind of letter, it would make banks and credit unions far more responsive to their customers or their members.
SPEAKER_00:Agreed, because as lawyers, we're asking them to create a paper trail that we can then rely on. If the worst happens, then we need to pursue a lending institution because they've ignored express written communications, express written requests. And as you said, going against using their own protocols, their own standards against them if they fail to enforce it. So I think that I think advice. Can we get back to the stranger who may be in another country entirely? As lawyers, we've gotten that for close. I used to do real estate law, Paul. So we would get the, and my husband does real estate closings, get that, you know, please deposit in here. He had one, he had a scam recently, a potential scam that could have been very scary if both attorneys hadn't been on top of it. But Lilyn, let's say we're talking about non-lawyers, we're talking about non-professionals. What are the top three red flags you would want every listener to memorize before they pick up a phone or click a link?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I I like to use an acronym for SCAM. And so it's actually four, if you don't mind.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Even better. Uh so scam. S, stop. I mean, that is number one of my recommendations. Nothing is that urgent that requires you to act immediately. So stop, pause, reflect. What am I being asked to do here? Um, who is it that's asking me to do? Have I ever known this person? Have they just pulled me out of the blue? So stop. Um, C, check. Always check. Again, they're asking you to make an immediate financial decision and transaction. Don't do that. Check, verify, um, ask more questions, inquire, and then A, ask. Ask a trusted friend, a professional, ask your estate planning attorney, ask your CPA, your bookkeeper, ask your next door neighbor, ask your son, your daughter, ask somebody. I've I've got this call, I've got this email, I've got this text. What do you think about this? And then finally, M, if you know and believe that what you are being asked to do was and is a fraud, please mention it. Report it. We've got to do that. Uh, report this to your local authorities. Uh and sadly, if somebody has been defrauded, actual money has been lost. That has to be done. A police report, uh, and then something with the FBI through ic3.gov.
SPEAKER_00:Some people feel like if I report it, it's not nothing's going to be done. So why report it? Because I said in the introduction, some of this stuff does not get reported. Is that changing, Paul?
SPEAKER_01:It is slightly changing. Uh, I mean, I in a perfect world, every report would be followed up on, but I know it's not, and uh often just goes into a black hole. But I am constantly telling people don't let your local police department push you away and say, um, okay, you've lost five thousand dollars, I'm sorry, but the fraudster is probably overseas. So there's nothing we can do. Don't let them say that to you. They need to take a report. And I'll tell you why, because there's more and more agencies out there now that are actually working collaboratively across state lines, across national lines. And the more data that we can input into uh IC3.gov or some other resource, you never know where that can end up. Uh, I still remember one case where we followed one victim and it became part of a 53 defendant indictment from southern Texas. And here I was in San Diego, but it became part of an indictment from southern Texas involving at least 50 of the 53 suspects in India. So you never know how far it can reach, like the information that you can present. But law enforcement mail find or look for a quick way out because they don't find these cases particularly satisfying to follow because they think it's a lost cause. And it's not always a lost cause.
SPEAKER_00:You know, for our association board members who are listening who think, ah, this doesn't impact us. I will tell you, not so long ago, uh, I was on the receiving end of a federal subpoena on behalf of an association who was caught up in a huge scam because one of their owners had allegedly paid their association dues with money obtained through this huge scam. So you never know when it's going to hit your association and in what form. So that that was a that was a new one. I'd never had that before. They were trying to claw back the funds that this individual, by the way, I don't even think the individual knew that the money was part of a scam, but the but the government was trying to claw back the the assessments paid into the association, and they were significant. So that was a that was a new angle for me. You're talking about reporting, we've been talking about that naturally. Many of the victims feel ashamed, right? Nobody likes to have the wool pulled over their eyes to be scammed, to feel, especially the elderly who have a lot of pride. These this is the greatest generation. And you know, to fall prey to something like that, it can create uh a significant amount of embarrassment. How do you move people, Paul, from like shame to action to report and teach others?
SPEAKER_01:That has always been uh one of the biggest obstacles. Um, but particularly I I and when I identify who the suspect is. So, for example, if the suspect is a family member, so now I've got a victim who is totally embarrassed and who doesn't want the quote family name to be dragged through the court system, does certainly doesn't want to sit in front of 12 strangers on a jury and explain to them how I raised a son who is addicted to drugs, who now stole my jewelry from me. So, in that kind of case, I would sit with the victim before or at the time when I've issued the case. And there were times, Donna, when victims would come to my office and beg me, don't file a case against my son. And I would I would listen to them, but I would always say, No, I have enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, so I am gonna file. But I would always get to the bottom of it or try to with them. I say, What caused your son to do this? And it invariably it was one of those addictions that I've mentioned. And I would say, you want to help your son break his addiction, do you not? Yes, I do. You've tried to help him in the past and it hasn't worked. Is that correct? Yes. So, well, then what I'm gonna do is this I am gonna prosecute your son and we're gonna put him on a court-ordered program where a judge is gonna tell him he's gonna have to do certain things. Now, I would say, hear me out, even further. Because at the end of that program, if your son follows through and shows positive signs that he's complying, as long as he doesn't have any serious prior record, I will be encouraged by his lawyer to consider reducing his conviction from a felony to a misdemeanor. And so that would be one way that I would use to overcome the reluctance or the embarrassment. Now, with other types of victims who were victims of fraud, where there was absolutely uh total shame and embarrassment, uh, I would encourage them to join a victim support group through AARP Fraud Watch Network. And the beauty of that is you don't even have to be a member of AARP to join in with it. And I have found that once a victim joins that group and hears from other victims, it actually releases a burden off them. They go, oh, so I'm not alone. Oh, I'm not the only one. Oh, okay, I feel a bit better about myself. It gives them back some of their dignity and some of their self-esteem. And ultimately, it can encourage one or two of them to actually be willing to retell their story to a whole new group, because that is powerful when they can go on to a webinar or a podcast and tell another group, this is what happened to me, and I hope it doesn't happen to you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I was gonna say that. I imagine some victims go on to become advocates and to really help others. I see it sometimes on social media where people are, they feel entirely comfortable, Paul, discussing whatever has befallen them, whether it's a scam, uh, you know, uh loss of a child, whatever, but they use that, and that's not to say that everybody reacts the same way. So some people are going to be the ones reading that, but there's a small percentage that will probably go on to be advocates.
SPEAKER_01:That's true. And Donna, I've the times that adult children have, well, I was a prosecutor, brought their elderly parent into my office to try to get me to convince the victim to stop sending money, most of the times it wouldn't work. Even though I'm sitting in an office surrounded by law enforcement, you know, we've got police officers running backwards and forwards, you know, the the image of authority, I've got a badge. But victims, for whatever reason, the Brulsers are so good at imprisoning the minds of the victims. What I felt has happened, which has been more of an impact, is when it's another person of their own age group telling the story. And one very effective three-minute YouTube video is from an elderly lady called Glenda Syme. Her last name is spelled S-E-I-M. She's 81 and she lives in Missouri, and she was caught up in the romance scam, but she was involved as what we call a money mule. And so she was actually forwarding money to other people as a conduit for the money launderers. And she was warned several times by law enforcement, stop doing this. She ignored their warnings. She ultimately was prosecuted, 81 years of age, as a money mule. And as part of her sentence, the judge was so smart. Obviously, he didn't send her to her to any custody, but he put her on five years federal probation. But as part of the condition of probation, she needed to do a three-minute public service announcement, which is now on YouTube. And I play that wherever I can. And that really hits home when they see an 81-year-old saying, Don't do what I did.
SPEAKER_00:We're going to add that to the show notes, Paul. I think that's a great resource. I do have to ask you, you've used the example of sons more than you've used daughters. So is there a gender component here? Are you more likely as an elderly parent to be scammed by your son than your daughter?
SPEAKER_01:I'm sorry. To me, that's exactly the demographic. I had far more sons commit acts of violence and fraud against, particularly mothers, um, widows. Um, not to say it didn't happen with daughters. In fact, my last homicide trial uh was of a daughter who murdered her own elderly mother. So it does happen, but primarily it was, I mean, in 22 years, Donna, I don't think a week ever went by without me hearing about a son doing something bad with his elderly mother in San Diego uh County.
SPEAKER_00:Not a week. You said not a week.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. And that is not an exaggeration. Now it didn't always amount to me getting a file from a police department, but I would get a phone call from another sibling from adult protective services, or somebody would tell me about an ongoing situation involving a son.
SPEAKER_00:You know, when when I finish taping this, I'm gonna have to go like watch a video of kittens and puppies playing as like a toxic cleanse. As I said before, it's getting grim.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, Don, it's interesting you say that because when I do fraud prevention seminars, I always try to lighten it with a dose of uh formerly English humor, you know. Um so I throw in uh into that all those slides some light-heartedness. Just one example. I say, ladies and gentlemen, you know, we're all growing older and and we're living longer. And I finally discovered the secret to living to be a hundred. And then I pause and the next slide I show, and I say, it's eating smuckers for breakfast. Because I show the uh slide that the Today program shows. You know, every day they show somebody who's a hundred years of age and it's the smuckers ad, you know. So I say it's it's eating smuggers. And that actually produces a real sense of relief in the in the crowd and they laugh. And so, but it's you know, you've hit upon a real point here because again, if we want to do, and this is something for homeowners' associations, a little tip. If you decide to do a seminar in your uh community on fraud prevention, don't call it elder abuse. Uh call it tips on how to reduce the risk of becoming a victim of fraud. That's a positive message. People hate the word abuse, it's negative. They don't want to hear anything about that. And so that's one way to market it as a positive sign and then to encourage people to share the information with their neighbors.
SPEAKER_00:Great advice. No one wants to be a victim. And the whole point of this episode and the resources you put out there and the classes you teach is to prevent people from ultimately falling prey to a scam. I have to ask you, which scams are surging now? And I do want to hear about catfishing and online dating for older people. I would suspect that they're even more vulnerable to those romance-based scams because they're lonely. We know there's an epidemic of loneliness in the in not only in the in this country, in the world. So you've got widowers and widows. Can you talk about which scams, Paul, are surging right now?
SPEAKER_01:Well, you've actually identified it. Um, it's typically a romance type scam, which is also combined with investment opportunity scam. The investment opportunity scam works with uh a spontaneous text that you may get on your smartphone from an unidentified source. Hi, um, are we still good for dinner tonight? Question mark. And you go, from and so everything in you wants to respond. And that's why the fraudsters are so good at what they do.
SPEAKER_00:Nothing in me wants to respond to that, Paul. I get those sometimes and block and delete, but you're right. But for me, I see that and I'm like, no.
SPEAKER_01:No, exactly. Exactly. You know, but the the vast majority of particularly older people who live alone, that one uh text creates within them curiosity. Oh, somebody that uh whose number I don't have in my phone, maybe I am supposed to get together, maybe I forgot. And so they respond. And then the thruster will say, Oh, okay, oh, terribly sorry. It looks like I've texted the wrong number. I please forgive me for interrupting your day. And then, of course, the very polite person will say, Well, it's okay, you didn't interrupt my day, it's fine. And then they respond by saying, Well, you sound like a really nice person. Hi, my name's Tracy. And then so it goes from there. So that's one kind of uh scam. And then they will tell you shared information about their lifestyle, which makes you very curious. I mean, in one of the cases I had, they said, Yeah, I live in Beverly Hills. And so the victim says, How come you can afford to live in Beverly Hills? Well, I'm not supposed to tell you this, but my uncle shared a brilliant investment opportunity, uh, and he told me not to share it with anybody else, but you're so nice, let me share it with you. And that's how it all begins. Then the romance scam is the one that really is uh hitting hard all over the country. And it's obviously through dating sites, and the scammer will steal the profile and identity of a real person. It's typically an ex-military person or a professional, such as a surgeon or some kind of doctor. And they will always seem to be in a situation where they're not able to get on a webcam. I mean, you and I are conversing. You know what, you know what I look like. You know, I know what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_00:Well, ex-military, Paul. I've actually heard that from a friend where it was somebody who was on a military base. Is that because they they have a secret, you know, a need to stay a little covert? Is that why they use ex-military?
SPEAKER_01:That's partly it, exactly. But also, there's something very prominent about being military or ex-military. And there's something sexy about that? It is sexy, and somebody in the uniform, come on. I mean, yeah, exactly. So there's that aspect to it, and then they will get you off the dating website onto typically WhatsApp audio, and then they'll start wooing the victim with romantic lines. Well, they're not romantic, they just got it from Chat GBT. It's so easy to do that. One of the victims that I've worked with said um she had a ministry of caring for uh terminally ill dogs, and she said that the uh suspect wooed her and broomed her over months, and he spent the time recognizing the bark of each individual dog. She said, I fell in love with him, even though I never saw him. I fell in love with him because he had he took the time to know who my dogs were. And of course, when he started asking for money, she was in love with it.
SPEAKER_00:How much did she lose, Paul?
SPEAKER_01:She lost all her life savings, which for her was about$38,000. But I've had victims who've lost$700,000 or over a million dollars. But for her, in this case, and she's gone public with her case. Um, her name is Kate from Pennsylvania. Uh she, after she lost all her money and realized she was a victim, her air conditioning unit broke in Pennsylvania during the height of summer. She didn't have any money to repair it, Donna. So she went to her cupboard and pulled out the old plug-in unit. Two weeks later, it short-circuited, and her whole house burned to the ground, and all six dogs perished in the fire. So these cases have ripple effects, uh, which you know you mentioned before, but this is one very devastating.
SPEAKER_00:But you know, to her point that this individual took the time to learn the individual barks of her dogs, It's his job. They don't understand this. It's his job. This is what they do, right? All day long. All day long. Sit down at a computer with a phone and they do it like a real job. It's not a hobby for most of these people, is it?
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. And it's not just Kate that he's working on. He's working on about probably 15 other victims at the very same time during a 10-hour working day, as you say. And out of those 15 victims, he's going to score big time, probably with half of them, with getting money from them. So this is a very, very lucrative industry for these scammers. And it's worth their time, as you say, to invest in grooming. And that's what it's all about. It's financial grooming of these victims.
SPEAKER_00:Are there many lone wolves operating in this space, or is it more like a consortium of scamsters working together? In your experience, are these mostly lone wolves or are they part of a bigger group that's, you know, you're in a call center and you know, Bill's over there making his 20 calls and Jeff's over there doing his? What in your experience has it been like?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So we are very concerned about what we call transnational gangs that are operating these uh romance and investment scams from formerly vacant casinos in places like Myanmar and Thailand. So during COVID, there were casinos everywhere in Southeast Asia. COVID shut them down. So the crooks seized opportunities, particularly in Myanmar, to infiltrate these casinos and uh build them up as boiler rooms. And then they would invite unsuspecting employees from all over Asia to come to earn lucrative monies without these folks knowing what they were doing. They would then come to these casinos, they would remove their passports and basically hold them as captive in these casinos, working 15 hours a day on the phone with unsuspecting victims in America. And so these cases now have secondary victims. The employees that you sometimes end up speaking to as the suspects can often be uh people of uh human trafficking as well. And so there's big, big ventures like that, but also you're right, there are lone wolves who've learned their trade from reading it online. They think, well, I'll try it too. And so they do.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Paul, is it a misperception that older generations are more prone to scams than, say, millennials or or Gen Z's, or are we all equally vulnerable?
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's a great point. I I we are all vulnerable at any age. Uh and so, yes, uh fraud can occur to people of all ages. But having said that, I think that the scammers love targeting older adults for several reasons. They know that older adults have money, life savings. All right. Number two, older adults are at home. So they're more likely to have the time available to pick up the phone or to answer a text. Thirdly, that older adults are less likely to be tech savvy. And fourthly, more likely to have maybe some initial cognitive impairment that may impact their decision making. And then fifthly, you can't perpetrate the grandma scam on a 25-year-old.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Not successfully.
SPEAKER_01:Not successfully, no. So, you know, there are so many different reasons. Um, so even though I will always um in my fraud prevention seminars make that point. It can happen to anybody, it can happen to your 18-year-old son, the grandson, or whatever. But watch out for yourself.
SPEAKER_00:You know, Paul, I've always wondered how they recruit people to engage in these types of frauds because we've been discussing the devastating impact it can have on people's lives, mentally, physically, just across the board. I know that there's a lot of desperation. I I have to imagine that, but it's just very hard for me to wrap my head around how somebody becomes recruited to do this. It's almost like a drug dealer. How do you recruit people to become a judge? You know, drug dealers.
SPEAKER_01:And and what we're seeing, and there's something I wanted to, I'm glad we brought that up because I wanted to mention it. We are seeing now more and more couriers being hired by the out-of-country suspects to be the driver that will drive to the home of an elderly victim to pick up gold bars, gift cards, or cash. And who are these couriers? They they have been hired because they need extra income. It can be foreign students who are in the United States uh getting an education. It could be drivers uh for various companies who need extra cash, and they get contacted. And initially, they may not appreciate that they're being asked to conduct a criminal enterprise. But after two or three courier pickups of gold bars or and it's the same kind of demographic of an elderly person coming out, they start to realize, but then by then they're getting used to getting this uh pay from the I was gonna say, are they co-conspirators or are they victims?
SPEAKER_00:But it at some point you have to ask questions. They have to know what's going on.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. And and so when we actually apprehend these couriers, because they're they're our only tangible uh person that we can identify as part of the chain of suspects, it it the difficulty, the challenge is can we prove knowledge? Can we prove that when they drove up to this elderly person's house, they knew in their mind what they were there for? So if we're successful in getting into the suspect's smartphone, we can see the all the different uh communications they've been having. And that way, then knowledge becomes uh very evident. So that's how we can actually prosecute those kind of people.
SPEAKER_00:So, Paul, for someone who's just realized I think I've been scammed, what's the first hour playbook? First steps they do.
SPEAKER_01:Great. And and it is if there's any opportunity to get money back, it has the response has to be immediate. So I would always say, number one, if you've made a wire transfer or some kind of a cashier's check or something else involving your financial institution, you need to call your financial institution immediately and ask them to do whatever they can to put a stop on that transaction. It may work, it may not work, I don't know. Secondly, make a uh call to your local law enforcement agency, sheriff, or police. Tell them what has happened and push to have them actually take a report. Thirdly, I would ask them to uh go on to ic3.gov and fill out online a report that will have them detail what has happened. Those three things are crucial. And if it involves cryptocurrency uh that they've been asked to uh uh convert, and by the way, uh Donna, that's what we're seeing a lot of a lot of victims are being told now to drive to a gas station, to a liquor store, to a supermarket where now a Bitcoin or other cryptocurrency ATM machine is now housed. They're all over Florida. Uh they're everywhere, all across the country. Uh and if you've been asked to do that, you need to contact that store immediately and ask them to do whatever they can to follow the money uh and try to put a freeze on the crypto wallet that the money's gone into.
SPEAKER_00:And if the victim doesn't drive like my parents, they don't do they offer to go pick them up, we'll come get you and drive you over there?
SPEAKER_01:They do. I've Astonishing. I I had one victim who had uh advanced dementia. She was in a skilled nursing facility in San Diego. She said, I don't drive. She believed her granddaughter was in jail. And the crook said, Don't worry, I'll send a taxi. And so seven times the taxi picked her up, took her to her bank, and seven times to the grocery store to buy gift cards.
SPEAKER_00:These are audacious scams. Paul, where do you think HOA and condos can fit into fraud prevention? You may be putting stuff on bulletin boards or newsletters, or maybe conducting, asking an expert like you to come in and conduct a class or training?
SPEAKER_01:All of the above. I think, yes. And I really feel that there's a responsibility that a HOA owes to its residents to do that. Uh and it's it provides, number one, a positive environment. It provides a message to prospective residents. Hey, this HOA cares about me and my financial welfare. So I believe that education needs to be consistent, it needs to be current and relevant. Bring in somebody who knows what they're talking about, somebody who has actually day-to-day experience of working with fraudsters, and who can also inject a little bit of levity and humor into the uh presentation. And uh also to encourage uh HOA and the residents, well, if I hear of something, who should I call? Who should I contact? Because it's not just the victims, we want friends of the victims, and maybe the victim is too embarrassed, to know who to call within their own county, within their own locality. And so often you can start with uh adult protective services who will keep the information confidential. They won't tell the victim who sent them. And that way you can at least start a process of hopefully uh investigation.
SPEAKER_00:I think I speak for most people, Paul, when I say we want to get these fraudsters. We want to get the people doing this. So, from your years of prosecuting, what evidence do you think makes or breaks an elder fraud case? What do you need to really nail them dead to rights?
SPEAKER_01:It's often a paper trail. Uh, it's the jurors uh uh are sophisticated enough, and they've unfortunately watched so many law and order TV programs that they think that they are as smart as the detective uh or the prosecutor, any many times they are. Uh and so we've got to hopefully build uh a case where we can show them this is where the money went, uh, and to emphasize and focus on the lies. Uh, and that's often how I would uh present it to the jury. Uh, all the lies that the suspect told the victim, the misrepresentations that were given, that we could then establish were false. Because sometimes the defense would be, well, you gifted this money. You wanted this person to have the money. Uh and my counter-argument to that is well, if you had known the truth, would you still have given it? Oh, well, of course not, Mr. Green, but I wouldn't have done that. And so that's how you overcome that typical defense and prove theft. And I must say, Donna, that in most cases, jurors got it. And so often uh a juror will be sitting there thinking, just like you, I got a 92-year-old mother and a 96-year-old father. This could be happening right now to my parents. And and often that's the age group that I would want to have on my jury because they they are concerned for an elderly parent.
SPEAKER_00:Did you ever see the show Tinder Swindler, Paul?
SPEAKER_01:Not that one. No, I haven't. I've seen a few others, but not that one. I should, should I?
SPEAKER_00:I that one was well, that one had so much evidence that these women, and these were young women who, you know, the guy dazzled them. He the first date he had his private plane take them places, but but then it that the request for the 30,000 here and his money was tied up in Basel, Switzerland. And it I mean, I think that actual documentary did more to dissuade young women from believing from being dazzled. So you now it's become like part of the vernacular, the word Tinder swindler. Check out that, check that out in in your free time if you get a chance, because uh it really was eye-opening, but it was also based on a lot of the evidence you just talked about. Call recordings, the guy would leave a video message. He was probably leaving the same video message to like 20 different women.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. So so true. Yeah, that and that's what happens. These cases, there's such a consistency through them. And so after a few years, I was almost able to predict what happened next, and certainly where to find the evidence for that.
SPEAKER_00:What's the one scam line you wish everyone would hang up on immediately?
SPEAKER_01:Um well, it's where the buzzwords are um to do with your personal life, uh, to do with you need this, you need that, or something bad has happened, there's a warrant. You need to act immediately. Don't tell anyone. That's if that ever gets mentioned to you in the first three or four lines. What I'm telling you has to be kept confidential. And I always say, keep a whistle handy by the phone. And when you hear that, just blow that whistle down the phone. I mean, that your satisfaction is you give them an earache, but also it's good for oxycizing. I keep telling older people, you need you need to oxysize more. You use that diaphragm, but blow as hard as you can down the phone.
SPEAKER_00:I I love that advice. I would also say I think people should not be embarrassed or concerned if they're overly cautious. And I'll give you a recent example. I traveled to Japan with my daughter in May, found a beautiful item that I wanted to ship to my son for his birthday this month. This episode will come out afterwards, so I don't have to worry about spoiling the surprise. But it wasn't coming. And then I got these texts from a strange number saying it was DHL and you have to pay it, otherwise, your merchandise is going to be destroyed. I said, Oh, this is a scam. Who they didn't wreck, they didn't refer to my exact delivery or what the item was. They just said, delivery from DHL, it's going to be destroyed. You have to got rid of that, called the supplier, and they actually said to me, Oh, no, that's legitimate. You have to pay an extra tariff because it's coming from Japan, which I did. But the point is, I think some people feel like, oh my gosh, it's two extra steps, or I'm embarrassed to question that was legitimate. I don't think you should be embarrassed if to take a few extra steps, even if it is legitimate, to be careful.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, absolutely. Um, challenge. And that's why he keeps saying check and verify. Um, yeah, and that's why I think again, scammers love an older generation, because um maybe they're less willing to confront and uh inquire. Uh they're more willing to accept a very charming, soft voice over the phone. You know, I I'm sure you get them. These um charitable phone messages we get, they're they're always very smooth. These voiceovers are so clever, uh and it makes people want to give information out.
SPEAKER_00:So basically being a curmudgeon helps as a fraud prevention technique, is what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01:Well, we don't have to go that far sometimes, but certainly, yeah. We we need to hold people accountable and and you know, start asking more questions. And again, always verify and don't ever do any transaction without checking with somebody who's in your trusted circle.
SPEAKER_00:Paul, are there any trends that you find help hopeful right now in this space?
SPEAKER_01:I do. Uh and I've noticed this in the last three years. Um, this crime is global, and we're seeing more global collaboration uh between law enforcement agencies. There's more of an understanding amongst law enforcement that uh these cases have a significant impact on elderly victims. And I think that more and more uh these agencies are willing to go that extra mile. So I'm encouraged, I but I've always been a half-full kind of guy, Donna. Um I'm always optimistic, but it takes work and it takes training and uh it takes resources. And one of the things I, whenever I have an opportunity with anybody who's in legislation who has the purse rings, either for county, state, or federal, I say, do you realize that by the year 2035 there'll be more people in the United States of America over the age of 65 than children under the age of 18? That's less than nine, ten years. So you better get your act together. You better give more resources because elder exploitation is going through the roof, and you better give more resources to law enforcement, adult protective services, and the ombudsman's office. Otherwise, we are going to be overrun. And that's the message that I want the political folks to hear about.
SPEAKER_00:Do you ever testify in front of state legislatures or in front of Congress, Paul?
SPEAKER_01:I've had, yes, I've had three opportunities in front of the U.S. Senate Special Committee on Aging to do that. And uh I've done several times up in Sacramento in California, but trying to push legislation through. Um sometimes it's it's a hit, sometimes it's it's a fail. You know, it it all depends. But I'm never going to stop uh asking, um pushing, and advocating uh for older adults uh and trying to bring this crime out. And this is why I'm so grateful to you, Donna, and for your podcast, because I don't know how many people will reach, but if if it just reaches one who hears something on this podcast that can help them stop becoming that victim in about 10 minutes' time when the phone rings, hey, I think we've done our job.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think this topic deserves some real muscle in our outreach. So our goal is to get it out there to as many people as possible because nobody wants to fall victim to these types of scams. I want to thank you so much, Paul, for your time, your expertise. And where can people find you?
SPEAKER_01:Thanks. So I I do have uh since I left the district attorney's office, uh, I've created a quote law firm, but I'm not your average law firm. I don't take clients. Uh I I it's a twofold uh practice that I have, which is training uh for law enforcement, uh, whoever and older adults, whoever it is. And then secondly, if ever uh a civil attorney ever wants me to act as an expert witness to explain to a jury how under influence, for example, works and how frauds occur, then I'm happy to do that. But they can find me by my and it's all words, Greenwood Law Corp. That's the corp short for corporation. It's greenwoodlawcorp.com. And you can find me there, and that's there's a place there you can email me. And and what I always send this to uh I say this, it doesn't cost anything uh for you to do this. Uh but all I ask is if you do email me, keep it short. Don't make any multiple attachments with 15 documents. But if you want some help, keep it short to one page. And I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_00:You don't want 24 James Joyce sized paragraphs on the email. That's tough.
SPEAKER_01:There you go. Exactly. And so but what I like to do is connect people. Connect people to a law enforcement person that I've worked with or to an adult protective service agencies. I may not have the answer, but if I don't, I'll try to put you in touch with somebody who does.
SPEAKER_00:Paul, thanks again. Much continued success. Keep fighting the good fight. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Don. It's been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to follow and rate us on your favorite podcast platform or visit takeittotheboard.com for more ways to connect.