%20(Instagram%20Post)-3.png)
Kourosh Khoylou Podcast
Kourosh and guests breakdown experiences and ideals in pursuit of a purpose forward. We hope to achieve meaningful conversation in topics that include but are not limited to technology, science, philosophy, fitness, nutrition, health, socio-politics, economics, education, progression, and travel.
Kourosh Khoylou Podcast
VR Development: Challenges, Tools, and the AI Revolution
Strap in for a candid journey through the evolving frontiers of virtual reality development with Brandon, a game and VR developer who pulls back the curtain on what it really takes to create immersive digital worlds.
The surprising revelation? Creating VR functionality is easier than you might think. Thanks to Unity and Meta's partnership, developers can now implement basic VR interactions with minimal coding knowledge. The real challenge isn't in writing complex scripts—it's in the physical exhaustion of testing. Every change requires putting on the headset, which becomes a rollercoaster of frustration and wonder.
Brandon doesn't sugarcoat the challenges: approximately 53% of users experience VR sickness, headsets still cause physical discomfort for many, and the market remains relatively small despite more affordable options like the $300 Meta Quest 3S. Yet something keeps drawing developers back to this medium—the magical feeling of creating truly immersive experiences that traditional gaming can't match.
Our conversation takes a fascinating turn when we explore how AI is reshaping game development. From generating code snippets that save hours of work to the looming possibility of AI-created 3D models, these tools present a double-edged sword. They're making game creation more accessible while potentially threatening specialized creative roles. As Brandon puts it, "The net damage that it's done to the job market in particular is not good."
Perhaps most thought-provoking is Brandon's perspective on where this technology might ultimately lead us. Could VR become so immersive that it competes with reality itself? What happens when virtual experiences become more attractive than our physical world? These aren't just sci-fi musings—they're the considerations shaping how developers approach their craft today.
Whether you're a fellow developer, a VR enthusiast, or simply curious about the future of digital experiences, this episode offers valuable insights into the technical, creative, and philosophical dimensions of creating the worlds we might soon prefer to inhabit. Subscribe now and join the conversation about where technology is taking us—and whether we're ready for the destination.
hello hi everyone, what's up?
Speaker 1:uh, brandon jack game and vr developer. So we were just talking about web 3 and how you had to google.
Speaker 2:We were talking, you didn't know what that was yeah, you sent me a list of questions and that was the last one, and I'm so bad with these terms, man, like I think I always talk. At one of the last dev x meetings I was talking about like how I don't know what web gl is, or like what the term actually means, even though I've made like three games in webgl like I, and it stands for like web graphics library, so it's like, okay, that's what it means. But I had no idea. I'm so bad with terms like this. I still don't get it, though. I google web 3 and it's like it seems like it's a term that they just use for the next generation of internet stuff, but I, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I'm making myself look real bad right now well, the reason I was think I wanted to ask, just it wasn't you know particulars, because I think it's still far way off. But if you you in the VR space have had any experience or have heard of Web3 in any way, it seems like you haven't though.
Speaker 2:I haven't really. I guess I haven't really done any. I haven't made a VR multiplayer game, even though Unity has made it really easy. Unity and Meta have made it really easy. Unity and meta have made it really easy to try and make vr multiplayer games super easy to do. But I haven't done it yet through oculus.
Speaker 1:Is meta doing that?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, through. Well, the meta quest. I mean, they renamed it, but it is it's oculus okay, so, and you said unity yeah, unity, I think, is like probably the main vr engine. You can do vr and unreal, but it's like harder I don't know it's just like unity has so many good tools for vr games. It's pretty crazy one thing okay no, it's okay.
Speaker 2:I was just saying like they, they really seem to be focusing on it like I don't know, like unity and meta are basically partnered to try and make vr a thing it feels like they work together a lot yeah, I mean meta just has made a bunch of really really like impressive and easy packages that you plug into Unity.
Speaker 2:Making a VR game is really easy if you can figure out how to get your headset set up and connected to your computer in a way in which you can run Unity in the headset. If you can do that, which is the hardest part, you can basically build a vr game with little to no coding. Well, you can get vr functionality done with little to no coding. Like you still have to be a game developer and to actually make like normal game stuff happen in a vr game. But like actually getting your headset set up so you can like move around and interact, like pick things up, is all done with basically no code in unity. And so, yeah, it's, it's pretty cool, it's pretty crazy in Unity. So, yeah, it's pretty cool, it's pretty crazy. What's it done with?
Speaker 1:What do you mean, like, if you don't use code to control the interactions, how do you control them?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean like it is code, but you basically just download these interaction toolkits into your Unity project and then they have like really good pre-written scripts that you kind of just like plug in and attach to different objects and like I mean, I've, I've looked at the code of some of them because I had to tweak some things but like, yeah, you don't need to do that. I think just last week I went through a whole process again because I started a new VR game and like I don't think I wrote any code for it yet. So it's like you can really, it can really be done. Like you know, all you can do in that uh game is just like walk around and like pick up one cube, that's it.
Speaker 2:It's not really a game yet, but I do have big plans for it that's awesome yeah, and that, like the plant, like what I plan to turn it into, will definitely require a lot of code but, like, just getting the player functionality set up for vr was easy, required not much technical skill that's awesome.
Speaker 1:And do you prefer coding or creating games for vr rather than like pc or another platform?
Speaker 2:no, um, and, honestly, the game idea that I have right now, the one that I just started, I was starting to think because, like I have, I do have like some big plans for it. I want to get collaborators on it and uh, I was kind of thinking like it might be dumb to even make this a VR game. I like VR games, I love it. It's super immersive, it's super cool. Um, so in that sense, I do think that like it's kind of a magical technology in a way.
Speaker 2:But like, as far as preferring for coding, I definitely don't, because if you need to really test out the player experience of vr, you have to have your headset on. You have to put it on every time you like hit, play and run the project, and that gets exhausting, it gets like it's just really annoying, um, and like sometimes it's buggy, it doesn't work, sometimes it crashes your whole project and like you lose save data, like I I don't know it's maybe that's just me because I'm bad, but uh, no, I mean, like developing for vr games is a pain, um, and like, honestly, like it. It really isn't a super smart like financial business decision either. So like there's a lot of downsides on it, but I like the really cool things that I have made in vr. I'm like, wow, this is amazing and I, I love it, and I mean I love vr gaming, so like what makes you?
Speaker 1:what makes it say I think it's worth it just because it seems to be the future. But what makes you say it's worth it just because it seems to be the future? But what makes you say it's a bad business or bad type of I think he said business to get into as far as game creation?
Speaker 2:VR. I think it's the future too, and I'd love to expand on that, but VR is definitely still in its infancy. All these years later, Like a lot of people still don't play VR. Do you have a VR headset?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Right. Like most people don't, even gamers. Like it hasn't really been widely and broadly accepted yet. Like meta has done some amazing things to like make, make it affordable. Like the new meta quest 3s, I think is an amazing product and, uh, like it's only 300 bucks. I bought my my three for 500, like two months before the 3S came out and like it's the same headset. They do all the same things, really. And like my buddy got a 3S which is supposed to be like worse because it's less expensive but it has like more memory on it and his actually charges while we're playing and even if I have mine plugged in while we're playing, it still drains. So like I don't know, that pisses me off a little bit that's frustrating, yeah, and I think sorry to answer the question.
Speaker 2:The main reason is just there's not just a lot, there's just vr isn't widely accepted yet.
Speaker 1:There's not a huge market for vr games yet no, and I I'm guessing the network isn't there either, like, the player network, or is it?
Speaker 2:what do you mean?
Speaker 1:like you have a bunch of other people on some sort of gaming network where they all play together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, one thing that I actually did realize about VR is like it is like way easier to meet people and like make online friends that way easier to meet people and like make online friends that way, because, like a lot of the big gains and experiences are kind of like tailored more towards social things. Like vr chat gets a bad rap, but I've met some like legitimately cool people in there and like it's I don't know, it's easier to make, make some some friends and people are genuinely like generally more willing to hang out and play with you. But I mean it's just not super vast and expansive yet. It hasn't blown up the way that it needs to for it to become a mainstream product or I don't know big giant industry.
Speaker 1:What's the experience like in VR chat?
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's really just horrible. There's a lot of children swearing and saying terrible things. It's like a 30% chance that that's what it's gonna be at any time, but the other 60 of the time it's or 70 of the time it's amazing. And, like you, you meet some cool people.
Speaker 1:You can have fun like I don't know it's, I mean it's I've I've only, I've never experienced gaming. I've only experienced a movie in vr um and it's really immersive yeah, like it's.
Speaker 2:I mean they have they're putting in. Like there's been more like game type experiences in vr chat now, which is really fun. Like some of them are cool. One of them was is like this uh, what is it a jet ski racing game? I joined vr chat and like within five minutes of putting my headset on, I I was like, oh, what is this jet ski game? And I did it. I immediately got sick and took off my headset. I was like I might vomit, but that was terrible.
Speaker 2:But some of the other games are really fun and I don't know, but that one was crazy. That's just like I don't. I don't get vr sickness either, like I have a high tolerance for it. Um, I don't know, I don't know why where I got going with that well, I'm actually interested in that because I've heard that you know something about.
Speaker 1:Vr creates sickness. Can you explain, like what that is?
Speaker 2:it definitely does. I mean, I think I saw something, some statistic I don't know where it was from, maybe it was in a video, but it said like over half, like I think it's like 53 percent of people experience VR sickness and like I do have a friend who just got his headset and three of us were playing this fun dungeon VR game and he got like sick and like like actually like really sick and was like done for the rest of the night.
Speaker 1:It was not good and like so what does that look like? What do you mean when he's like sick, like he's about to throw up?
Speaker 2:he did.
Speaker 2:He did throw up, it was.
Speaker 2:It was that bad and like for me personally, I think, when I first got my headset and, um, I was like playing it me and my dad were playing a game, nothing crazy either.
Speaker 2:You just kind of walking around like solving puzzles, and we couldn't be in there for like longer than 30 minutes at a time because like you have to take it off and like you just get dizzy, you get like disoriented, unbalanced, like now, uh, I think my tolerance for it has gone way, way up, so like I can get in there and like I can run around in like the dungeon and like throw things and have like zombies trying to kill me and stuff, and like I'm fine and I can play for like an hour to an hour and a half, um, but even still, even still, like I don't think I don't know if I could do two hours straight in vr.
Speaker 2:I would probably have to call it and take a little break after that. So it's like it's not like I'm just a machine now, like you don't just eventually completely get over it. It's like there's always, I think, some like element of disorientation that is hard to deal with disorientation that is hard to deal with and the develop what go. I mean it's just unpleasant, it's just an unpleasant feeling.
Speaker 1:That's all I was gonna say. And does the quality of development change that? How unpleasant it it's like if a developer does. I don't know.
Speaker 2:That is A good question. I wouldn't. I don't know that. I would Like be able to say for sure whether or not. Maybe to some extent.
Speaker 2:I think it depends more on the type of game. What I do know is that there's like in every vr game there's two types of like player movement. Essentially, in most vr games there's two types of player movement. One of them is where, like you hit your joystick here I have it here so like you hit your left joystick like this to turn, and it will do like a snap, like a I don't know if it's 90 degrees, but maybe like a 30 degree snap, kind of like that, instead of doing like a smooth turn. You know, like this and um, and, and then there's just like the smooth turn.
Speaker 2:And then, of course, for like actually moving, like getting around, there's a way where you use your thumb, you like move it forward, and it shoots this little ray out and like it puts like a little circle on the ground. It's like, basically, you teleport, you teleport where you want to go, um, and you kind of just like stutter, step like that, or you just like do it in like a normal video game, where you like put the joystick forward and you move forward, you put it to the side and you move to the side. So that's the one that I use. I just do the normal turning and the normal movement. But what I do know is that people say that doing the snap turning and the teleporting type of movement greatly reduces your likelihood of getting sick and like how sick you get. I guess. So like like that's kind of vr's current band-aid for, uh, like the vr sickness stuff, I think so if it's a smooth, well, that's the opposite of what I would think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if it's smooth, it's like high likelihood of higher likelihood of getting sick, and if it's just a snap with a camera, change pretty much I think, because, like, the technology is so immersive that you really feel like you're in there.
Speaker 2:But if you're moving forward in the VR space and there's all these enemies attacking you or God forbid you fall off a cliff or something. It's kind of like when you have one of those dreams, when you fall asleep, where you feel like you fall down 50, 50 feet and then it like wakes you up. Um, in the real world, it like you're kind of rocking around but like, really you're supposed to just be sitting there or standing there. I guess, and it's just I don't know, the brain hasn't evolved to a point where it recognizes that no, you've really just strapped a cell phone to your face. You're not actually in like a dungeon fighting skeletons it.
Speaker 1:it seems like one day it's not like someone's gonna create, create this VR game and it's going to kill somebody through that when they just get such intense VR sickness that they die.
Speaker 2:I feel like it would be more likely that they would walk into some dangerous situation and die that way?
Speaker 1:I don't know. Oh, I've seen that. I saw when the Apple Visions came out in San Diego. They were showing videos of people walking across the street with their vision pros on.
Speaker 2:That's so funny. Why would you do that, Like clearly just for clout, oh man.
Speaker 1:You'd hope it was for clout. You'd hope it's not just what this person does.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know, it's a pretty bold move. Yeah, I don't know. I had an idea for a funny video about making a VR game where you just go outside and experience the world Because, I don't know, the cameras on it are like pretty good, you can, you can actually just walk around with it on as like a a gimmick if you want that would be possible.
Speaker 1:But and you'd see everything still through the camera yeah, and like you could have.
Speaker 2:You could have like like the internet up. You could like watch youtube while you're walking or something, I don't know it's, but that would be really goofy, that'd be really goofy, but yeah, it's pretty cool actually it is pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Um, I think they try to have been. They've been trying to push like oh, meta offices, you can just have your headset on and then like, type and like have all these tabs open around you. I'm like you can't do that. I don't think anybody's using VR for that. There's gotta be like One guy. I'm sure there's like one guy. He's like oh yeah, I use my meta quest for work and like he works in a like vr office space.
Speaker 1:But did you see that, uh, there was a vr laptop that was going to come out and, uh, it was like just a keyboard and glasses and, um, but I think that space top, but I think they canceled.
Speaker 2:Space.
Speaker 1:Top Space, top VR laptop. No, yeah, it is, or Sightful, I don't know if that's still coming.
Speaker 2:I think I found it Sightful here. It is that those glasses are cool. Um, see, I would, I might consider wearing like something like the sunglasses outside. I thought about like I would get like the ray-ban, meta uh ar glasses as like a gimmick and like walk around with those just because I'm a vr developer. But, um, this product, I don't know, I don't think you need this. Like you, you like, if you were gonna do something like this, just get a meta quest like it really because it works. You can't do it like I have three screens here. I have my laptop screen and then these two big monitors, but like technically I could put my headset on, just exist in like open space so I could see everything around me and then have, like you know, three or four or however many screens I need around me, like in the virtual space, and like the typing works pretty well. The like actual vr keyboard in the headset works. It's pretty impressive, it's cool.
Speaker 1:There's a vr keyboard, so your keyboard isn't even real in the headset works.
Speaker 2:It's pretty impressive. It's cool. There's a vr keyboard, so your keyboard isn't even real. Yeah, well, you can, yeah, like and the typing like you just like you have the headset on and then you just have the keyboard like right in front of you and, uh, the typing is it's pretty good's pretty good. It's not terrible. It actually works Like your fingers type the actual buttons. It's insane.
Speaker 1:Like kind of how the first iPhones typing was.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It was a lot harder to type in their first iterations. Now it's way easier.
Speaker 2:I think it's better than that. I don't know, but like no, I mean it's doable. I just I just found it interesting that they were trying to market the meta quest as, like, you can work from home and, like, have all these screens up and just use vr as your office. I mean, I don't know you don't think people would be into that like I said, I'm sure there's one guy who, like has like a penthouse in new york city, who does that, that and thinks it's great and feels like he's living in the future.
Speaker 1:Probably in San Francisco.
Speaker 2:Yeah, who knows, maybe it'll be me one day. I like it, I mean, it's useful, it could be useful, but who knows, maybe my monitors will go out, something will just happen to them, and then I'll be like dang, I need my three monitors, and then I'll start doing it and I'll eat my own words.
Speaker 1:But yeah it's, it's tough Cause putting something on your head and over your eyes is like it's a huge deal. It's not like. I think that's one of the biggest things is people don't like having something on their head like that and over their eyes.
Speaker 2:It's really uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It's really uncomfortable. A month ago I figured out how to adjust this strap to a point where I don't feel like it's squeezing my brain out of my skull, like well, I'm comfortable, not that like like, no, it's like actually comfortable. Now I don't mind. I don't hate putting my headset on anymore, but for however long I've been doing VR stuff, every single time, up until like a month ago, putting my headset on was a pain and I felt like it was just squeezing my face and it hurt.
Speaker 2:So yeah, Sounds like a football helmet so yeah, sounds like a football helmet kind of, I mean maybe even worse, because it's on the front of your face and it's like the, the meta quest is actually pretty good.
Speaker 2:Some of them are heavy and it feels like, like some of them like feel like they almost should be a headset or like a helmet, and like they're should be a headset or a helmet and they're way heavier on the front than they are on the back. So it's like I don't know, but the MetaQuest isn't bad. It's funny because I don't know. The MetaQuest really is kind of the best product as far as VR headsetsets go. It's definitely the best bang for your buck. This is not. I don't work for meta. This is not a ad, but it's just how it is.
Speaker 1:I don't know what are some other? I know we have apple vision or I haven't ever tried that.
Speaker 2:This is the HTC Vive. It's like the brand new one. This one is not bad either. It's a little bit heavier than the MetaQuest and this one. They actually put the battery in the back of it, which was, I think, really smart, because you can actually unplug the battery and charge it, um, but like it also just helps to counterbalance it. But even that one like this is a lot heavier than this on your front face and it like kind of I mean, it's not. It's obviously not that heavy and like anybody with, like, a normal, healthy neck will be able to like counteract it, but like it, it just it feels a little bit weird. Um, I can say, though, that this, this headset, was a lot comfier the first time that I put it on and, like, as I kept using it because, like for for this thing, like I said, months, I had it up until like a month ago it just was so, so bad it hurt to wear. I'm not making vr sound fun, like I'm not. I'm not helping the industry right now.
Speaker 2:Um no, no, you're not no, I mean, it's worth it, it's such a cool technology and I really do love it. But yeah, there are. There are things like this that we need to fix. I mean, with the meta quest, it was just like I needed to just figure out how to adjust that top strap and then I was like, oh, I could have done this month ago, months ago, it's fine like I could have done that right when I got it out of the box. Um, I think the way that it they just like don't tell you that, or like I'm just dumb. But my, my one friend, who I do vr gaming with, has the same problem and I'm like, no, listen. I was like I understand, don't be like me, like you can do this one thing and it helps the experience so much more. So, I don't know. I think people just need to play with that top strap more when they get their headsets and it basically eliminates the problem okay, it's still tough.
Speaker 1:I mean, you have like. Putting that thing in public is almost a definite no Unless you're that guy who walks across the street.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, but I mean like you wouldn't really see somebody going out with their like PC gaming computer in public either, or like having a gamer chair. I guess the equivalent would be having like a gamer chair and like a small desk set up with like screams in front of you and then having like a motorized gaming chair and like wheeling around.
Speaker 1:that would be pretty funny actually that makes sense, though it's like a gaming console, and so you wouldn't have your gaming console. Go with you I mean the.
Speaker 2:The only thing I can think of would be the switch and like that kind of would be normal, but even even that would be I feel like a little weird, like I don't know so do you game also outside of vr in more traditional platforms?
Speaker 2:yeah, honestly, like I game a lot less now. Just, you know, I have a daughter and I'm working now, like I'm not part of the unemployed squad at the moment, but, um, so I just don't have a lot of time, or, when I do, I'd rather spend it on other things, like yesterday, I spent my whole saturday making a youtube video. Um, I didn't really play any games, but nice at least a couple times a week.
Speaker 2:I, a couple times a week. I, yeah, I sit down here and I play Warcraft 3. And then sometimes I'll play Xbox with a friend, but it's getting more rare. I'm more interested in making games than playing games. But yeah, yeah, I mean I do still game.
Speaker 1:At least a couple times a week I do and there was something that she said that I wanted to speak about. I forgot it. It was before Warcraft 3. Oh, what was your YouTube video about that you made yesterday?
Speaker 2:Oh, I didn't send it to you yet, huh. Yeah, I've been waiting to post it on LinkedIn. I think maybe I'll post it on Monday or Tuesday Sometime this week. I'll post it. It's about if, essentially, if AI is going to replace 3D modelers, or like if AI 3D model generators are going to make learning 3D modeling, or just like 3D modeling as a skill for a human like obsolete and useless what do you think?
Speaker 2:I think that 3D modeling is an art form and I think people will always do it. I think it's super useful and like it's it's an amazing, fun thing to do. Like have have people stopped painting because you know you can go on a computer and and draw, like a, an image, the exact same image you know, arguably easier, without having to like actually have like a paintbrush and like a canvas and all that. Like no people still paint. But I do think that probably within the next five years, ai will be able to produce 3D models so quickly to where you know.
Speaker 2:I spent hundreds of hours learning how to do this skill right and now at this point, ai can produce stuff that's like okay, that's decent.
Speaker 2:Some of the stuff that it makes is like good, it's not great, it has like some technical issues, but, like within the next few years, you'll be able to just type in like make me a goblin, and it'll make you a perfect goblin. And why would you need to learn how to like use Blender to make one from scratch? Because that would take like a few hours to do, especially if you're somebody that's new, or you could just go to a website and like type in a prompt make me a goblin, and it produces this thing. Type in a prompt make me a goblin and it produces this thing. So I do think that it's going to become a much more niche skill and AI will unfortunately kind of start to replace a lot of these jobs 3D modeling jobs which is that's the part that I really hate. But I think that there will always be 3d modelers and I think it's a skill worth learning definitely that's my take.
Speaker 1:Probably a different set of a different role and how they operate with AI is going to change and there might not be as much need for 3D modelers. But human in the loop is still very real and so figuring out what that best process is, what the best thing for that human in the loop is to work with the ai to create those models and create the game, is probably you know what I think it's going to be the future like, because there's a lot of different examples where you're almost certainly not like. You can continue doing what you're doing, but in five to ten years it's going to be, you know, maybe 15 years it's going to be really difficult to sustain that business model.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I agree. Um, yeah, I just hate. I hate seeing ai tools coming out and replacing jobs, especially jobs in the video game industry, because, like I don't know, I mean I guess it's less options for me, but also it's just like I don't know, that just sucks, like I. I very much subscribe to the belief that we should be using AI to like help us with taxes or like try to find cures for diseases. And you know, I don't. I just I don't understand why AI immediately started replacing artists and like art. Like that feels like the last thing that we should have tried to have it do, but it's the first thing that we had to do and it's just. I really, really don't like it and it's been sad to see it jobs away from like good people and it makes the most competitive industries basically disappear, like there's no work for anyone anymore. I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's very tough. I mean, I think the one reason that it went for art first is because you know there's no wrong answer in art. So you can create art and it can be complete garbage, and you know that's just your interpret, that's just the gen, probably general interpretation of it, but it's not wrong if it's art, whereas it still can't. Like there are people trying to make ai do like hardcore physical engineering, like structural engineering and all these different type chemical engineering, like structural engineering and all these different chemical engineering, and like you can't be wrong there there's no room for there's like you have to be very precise in what you do, and I think that's why cause AI can't really be that precise. It's gonna be like maybe accurate to some degree, but it still has a lot of interpretation and that's kind of at least. Why I think it went for art first is because there's a lot of room for interpretation in art.
Speaker 2:That's a really, really interesting and good take. I think, um, oh my god, my dog is here. He's like begging for attention right now.
Speaker 1:Here I might okay, go, go for it.
Speaker 2:All right, that's a really interesting take. I took an AI LLM class for my degree. We learned how those picture generators worked behind the scenes. It kind of just made sense why those things were the first things that popped up, but I think your idea about why is very insightful and unique and correct as well, what do you mean?
Speaker 2:image generators well, you know, like how you just click on, you type in a few words and say, uh, make me a goblin climbing a tree, and it'll make something like that like yes, because, like, imagine, like for a structural engineer or an architect, they want to create like a house.
Speaker 1:That house needs to be like, exact to the dimensions it needs to be. There's no room for interpretation on like the physical construction of it if you want it to stand. So that's at least my interpretation. It's way easier to do a goblin because there's so many different types of goblins that you can produce and a lot of them are going to be good. A lot of them will be crap. But, um, if you just keep going, keep going, keep going. Like I did a prompt generation course where the whole thing was just a course on like using images or like using this tool. It was mid journey. I think mid journey is kind of outdated now because, uh, it's kind of crazy, that happened really quickly.
Speaker 1:It's like yeah, that's how it works now yeah, it's like it was really popular last year and then this year kind of just seemed to die because, like everything else, did it now people just start doing the same thing for free and better. Yes.
Speaker 2:That's kind of the same.
Speaker 1:be the way of the tech now um you got to do a lot of things too. As far as tech startups go, you can't if you want to like. I heard I think it was someone and I think it was eric schmidt who was like, most startups are just features, and that is mid journey. Mid journey is a feature. There's another one called runaway, and runaway does a bunch of stuff like runaway does like, and you can upload images of yourself to start creating ai images of yourself and then it generates video and uh, but mid journey it was just like a photo generator and it ran through discord too.
Speaker 2:So like I never used mid journey. Um, I think, when all of that, when all of those like ai, prompt generator things came out, I was, I was pretty mad, like I refused to use them for a while. But, like you know, people who do that with technology get left behind, like that's just how it is, like I don't want to get left behind like that, so I don't know behind like that. So, um, I don't know.
Speaker 1:But, uh, I use them now, but I, I guess I just started doing that maybe in like the last like six months have you used it, sorry, okay, no you go.
Speaker 2:It was after I took that class um that ai class, that I finally finally started to kind of accept AI into my life and heart.
Speaker 1:Well, you could create your own game a lot easier. I think if you had a 3D model generator, you could just create your own.
Speaker 2:They're so bad though, and like I love the 3D modeling process and I love the I don't know just the animating. I checked out a few 3D model generators yesterday. It doesn't seem like they're at the point yet where the models they're creating are game-ready or usable. That was kind of the consensus at the end of the video that I made. I mean, there was one model where it made the character and it just didn't have a face, but everything else was pretty good and like with the skills that I do have, I could basically just take that character, spend like a couple hours on the face and like touch it up a little bit and then it would. It would have been usable, um, but yeah, I mean like I do think that as we progress, I will kind of start to use things like that, like use like 3D model generators, just because, like I don't know, I like to make games on my own and it's hard to get people to 3D model sometimes. So yeah, unfortunately it is convenient, and like I want my game to just like work and look good. Maybe at the very end I would have like a professional come in and like make better models, or just like make the ones that I was using look good, make better models or just like, make the ones that I was using look good.
Speaker 2:But yeah, but when I my my first time ever using AI in a video game, it was, it wasn't even a game, it was like this weird like person simulator, where you set it up and you just have a conversation with like an AI and you give it a personality, and I was like, whoa, that's cool, that's powerful. I could see how this would just make the NPCs within your game feel a lot more lifelike and it's something that I've wanted to implement in some game, but I haven't yet. But that was literally the moment when I made that simulation where I was like, okay, this could really be useful and cool and I wouldn't feel bad about doing it. So, yeah, I mean I'd like to find a way to do that at some point.
Speaker 1:That sounds very what. What was it that made you think that you know, make that light switch, that switch that? Oh, this is really powerful and something worth doing um, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think I just like it, was it? Just it didn't feel like it was gonna be ruining anyone's life, it was only going to be improving my game, like it wasn't gonna be taking a job away from anybody, because it's not like it's somebody's job to be in like an NPC in my video game all the time. Like that's not real. So yeah, that was it. And then also like I, I made the first ai, like that I was talking to think that it was my wife, which is really weird. But like it was, and it was really weird. But it was like cool, weird and scary weird. I was like okay, this is insane, like this is actually something she would say. It's kind of acting like her, it's kind of saying some things that she might say.
Speaker 2:I was like dang that like, yeah, it was surprising and it was just like I don't know like I started throwing in weird twists in there, um, which was also fun, um, but yeah, that was. That was like the moment where I was like, okay, ai isn't all bad, it could be something it could be used to make something really impressive and feel more alive, which is scary.
Speaker 1:That I just said that uh, yeah, that's kind of what if they get their own sense of being in there.
Speaker 2:I don't know, that's above my pay grade. I can't worry about it. I've watched like 10 video, like YouTube videos about that and I just I don't know what to think. I don't know what to believe. My, my personal doomsday apocalypse theory is that it's related to VR, because of course it is, because everybody sees the future and the world through a lens of their own perspective what do you mean? What do you mean?
Speaker 1:like that kind of how you ended your doomsday thing in the Perster own lens in VR.
Speaker 2:I mean, like it seems like all of the big, like tech executives, you know, like Elon and I guess mainly just him him, because Zuckerberg hasn't ever really said anything about it but like a lot of people seem to think that AI is going to bring about the end of times and I definitely think that it will sort of have like a hand in that if that happens. But I don't know, I think my, my personal idea of how technology would, um, I don't know, like cause an apocalypse or bring about like the end of the world, has more to, has like more to do with VR then, and I guess just like simulation theory, then like AI, but AI would absolutely be involved too okay.
Speaker 1:So I guess what is simulation theory and how does VR kind of end? And the world?
Speaker 2:I think I mean like simulation theory is just like we're not, like none of this is real type thing. We're all either all of us or just a few of us, or just one of us is living in a simulation, is like base reality, is like so, or like the probability that we're living in base reality is so much lower than the probability that this is all fake and we're living in a simulation. Um, but my I guess my vr theory is that I think that over you know, easily the next 50 years, 50 to 100 years, we'll sort of create a VR experience where you go in a tube, kind of like how they did in Avatar, but instead of controlling a giant blue alien on a different planet, you are just living whatever experience that you want to have and you know like you can feel things, you can taste things, you can stay in there for a really long time. Maybe time even moves slower. So like maybe you know, an hour in VR will be like 10 days, like it'll feel like 10 days in the VR tube, but really only an hour will have passed in the real world, and so it's like once you can choose to just go in a tube and live out the craziest, coolest life that you can possibly imagine.
Speaker 2:Why would you choose to exist in base reality, which you know? I don't think anybody's life is perfect, right. Everybody has at least something that they would want to change. So I mean, once we start approaching a world where living in a simulation becomes more attractive than not doing that, that starts to get scary and apocalypsy. I think, and I think we are heading in that direction.
Speaker 1:Probably, and it's kind of interesting.
Speaker 1:We've been heading there little by little and it just gets more immersive with various forms of media because, like, to some degree, a book is also an immersion into another reality that you know it doesn't really you if it's a non-fiction, or even if it's a fiction.
Speaker 1:It's like you're just going to immerse yourself in the context of this book. Everything outside of it is out. And then we had, you know, television, which is a lot more immersive, and, uh, then on top of that you have the internet, which, you know, 24 7 immersion. I mean, you can do that with television, but then I think one thing with the internet is that it made the variety available really high, and so now you can pretty much, and it can be anything, you can immerse yourself in some of the worst stuff possible and and I can't imagine with VR, like if they can get it to be really, really attractive and really worth someone's, like if you can make it so everyone actually wants to be in there, because I think like right now, as you mentioned, you can't even be there for like two hours and like people still get sickness.
Speaker 1:But if they can get it to the point where no one gets sickness and they will like, I think so they will right probably right now, I think, like probably the most immersive thing is like we have gloves.
Speaker 2:We have like vr gloves that you put on. No, they have. They have body suits too. I haven't tried the suits, I haven't even tried the gloves, but like that feels like the next step. But you're still in VR. You know, you still have this weird cell phone strapped to your face, so it's not really like that yet. But I mean, for some people it makes sense, like if you're a paraplegic or like a quadriplegic and you know that's a really hard life to live, and if you could go into a tube, that basically gives you like a normal life essentially, why wouldn't you choose that? Or if you're like sick or something like. I just think that there's a lot of people who would choose to like live in a VR space at some point, eventually, like then exist in the real world with like real consequences and like all the darkness that comes with it. Um, but yeah, we're not. We're not anywhere near that point, but I think that it's also inevitable that we'll get there too.
Speaker 1:It's a scary thought and I mean, even if you are paraplegic and can't move, then not even a normal life. You get the best life you can possibly get in your tube and you live well. It's kind of sad and I don't know what the consequences of something like that would be. That's above, like our reality, supposedly um yeah, I mean it.
Speaker 2:It is sad, but I don't know, like from their perspective or from someone's perspective, where, like they prefer that reality. Is it sad or is it just normal, or is it even like good and positive, like I don't know. I mean, vr has real world good applications. Um, like they're they're using it to train surgeons on how to do surgery. Like that is probably the best use of vr that I can think of and like that's amazing. Like, like you know, I, that's just the best thing that you, that probably video games have ever done, really, and that's happening right now. So that's really cool. But with tech it's always a double-edged sword. You can use it for really amazing, helpful things or it can go down a dark path.
Speaker 1:And I think what happens is that it goes down both paths and it's usually not either or there's a lot of uh good things that you get with your technology and there's a lot of bad things that you also get with your technology. And it's tough because, like these sorts of yin and yang, or you know, right and wrong, that it's very binary kind of weight Is this good or is this bad? It's always like been there. You see that in old texts, like old scriptures the Bible or other scriptures you know that some what?
Speaker 2:No sorry, keep going, keep going.
Speaker 1:So I think it's just a part. You know, it's a part of life. Obviously, there can be very bad things that come about it like phones with teenagers and Instagram social media with teenagers and Instagram social media. But we kind of have to adjust to that too. And I think we are adjusting because Australia, I believe, just banned social media for, I want to say, people under 16. Don't quote me on that. I think it was 13., 13. I think it was 13. 13. I think it was 13. That's very young age to have social media.
Speaker 2:That's about when I started. But yeah, I mean, social media addiction is real. Like I mean, addiction to video games is real. No, I completely agree with what you said. Like I think every time some amazing new technology is invented, like I think every time some amazing new technology is invented, it goes down both of like both the good path and the bad path. And like it's just you can't, there's nothing you can do to prevent that. Like so I don't know, we kind of just have to wait and see, um, and that's like that's really the scary part. Like I don't know. But like what's, what's the alternative to that? It's basically just government regulation and government involvement and saying like no, you can't make this, no, you can't make that. Like I don't. I don't know that that's the right answer either either.
Speaker 1:No, it's uh, it's complicated and it takes time, especially with these very immersive technologies, to see what the technologists create, how society integrates that, if it actually becomes something big or if it just kind of falls into the ether. Ai will probably not fall into the ether.
Speaker 2:I don't think so. It's too useful for the wrong people for it to fall into the ether. I don't know it is. I mean it's useful for the right people too, but it's really useful for the wrong people. It's saving them a lot of money. It's making them a lot of money.
Speaker 1:I don't know, like dude, I think the, I think you know, I, I understand what you're saying, I hear you loud and clear, but I think the people who do the hard work are able to, like now, go like one level above themselves and say like, instead of being, you know, just a developer, you're an architect because, or if you're just like, if you're a 3d modeler, well, now you're like, I don't know, maybe a seat, like an entire scene modeler or an entire like. It's just, the bar has been raised.
Speaker 2:It has made things really easy. That's what it does. It makes things easy. So I have used ChatGPT to write one script in all of my games and I had it make a gun, I had it make a make a object that you can pick up and when you pull the trigger it fires a projectile. That's what I had it do and it's like I looked at the code I mean I had to adjust the code a little bit, but it basically did it and I looked at it and I was like, okay, like this is exactly how I would have done it, but instead of you know, that script probably would have taken me 30 to 60 minutes, so save me like a half an hour to an hour of time. 30 to 60 minutes. So it saved me like a half an hour to an hour of time because it did it immediately, which is which is good.
Speaker 2:Like it's a big time saver, for sure. And like the 3D modeling oh my god. Like once it can do that. Like I've spent hours, days, on characters and like 3 know I I said this in my video too it's like that's after I already spent like 200 hours just learning how to 3d model at all. Like just learning that skill and so you know, having that as a basis, it still takes 8 to 12 hours to make like a character um model and so, yeah, I mean I think it makes things easier, makes things faster. I don't, I wouldn't say that it makes me. It's never done anything that I can't do or wouldn't know how to do, so like I don't. I think that once it starts doing that, that's going to really scare me and make me feel bad. But right now, in my opinion, as far as writing code, chatgpt does things that I know how to do already faster.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Which is super useful Like.
Speaker 1:I don't know Super useful, like cause there'll be some like block of logic and like putting together that block of logic isn't necessarily complicated but it's time intensive and you're going to be wrong at some points and you have to like get this code there and there and it's like if this thing can just spit out that block of logic, which I think for you is your script, um, instantly and dude I. You do that like three or four times a day. That's like an of work that you've just done in like 20 to 30 minutes and it's uh, it's sometimes I it does something and I'm like, I, like I'm just wowed, I'm floored because it was just always, say, the same one. Like it was gpt 4.0 where, like I think gpt 3.5 came out in november of 22 and that one was very crazy. It was like really amazing one. Chat, gpt 4.0. 4.0 is good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 4.0 is like was a it's way higher than four um, yeah it's just like when I say way higher, I mean it's just like a higher quality, higher capability. It just produces better outputs that seem more accurate. I agree because before oh no, no, you go, you can.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say somebody looks like maybe your brother or something has a really good question that I wanted to answer he's not my brother oh, it says um, do the yeah, do the benefits justify the detriments? Oh wait, I don't know, and I think that that's kind of the question that I struggle with a lot. I think it. I think the answer is no in some reasons and it's yes for some other reasons.
Speaker 2:Right, and that's kind of always how I feel about it. Like, I think the main detriment is it's just destroying jobs, which is making life harder and worse for a bunch of people, and that's what I don't like about it. That's my main gripe with it. And then people who love AI. They like to say, oh, but it's going to create all these new jobs for AI and it's like that has yet to happen. I mean, it kind of has, but it's still less jobs. The net damage that it's done to the job market in particular is not good.
Speaker 2:so I don't know and like that's also not good for the economy if you can't have people that can find like meaningful work that's paying well, that's that's not good. You know like I don't so. And then you know it's it's come for only a couple of jobs and then it's going to start coming for everybody's job and none of us are going to be able to escape it. It's just kind of like a matter of time.
Speaker 1:I think in 10 years it's going to be very noticeable. It's going to be something like it's already noticeable but it's not, I think, as impactful. Like we all use chat, gpt now, and, like you said, the job market is flailing a little bit, but I think in 10 years it'll be something you know like pretty dramatic. But I think in 10 years it'll be something you know like pretty dramatic, like, and that's why I'm interested to see like how jobs change and what the roles turn into. You're correct, I think you'll be fine. I think you seem like a very highly skilled individual, and me too individual and me too. But yeah, if you can't learn some new stuff or I mean even, like you have like this passion, yours is kind of creating games and through that, like the vision is the game and the process to get to the vision is going to change, but at the end of the day, you still have like your vision, which is that's true.
Speaker 2:It hasn't really changed my vision. It actually has only just made it easier for me to accomplish that. That's what I'm saying yeah, that's like that's a pretty good point. I just I care about people, man, like I want. I want there to be good opportunities for people, right, like I don't know I, I agree.
Speaker 1:I think the people that are really going to struggle more is, like you know, people who don't create things, people who are on the consumer side, usually only and rely only on their work to get into this position of creation. I think, like you're the type of person who it's like, imagine if you needed 3D modelers to accomplish your game. You would need millions of dollars to do that yeah, yeah, you're right not millions, but hundreds of hundreds of thousands, and now you can do that or tens of.
Speaker 2:I mean, like the thing is, the thing is now it's so bad I could get away with tens of thousands, but like I wouldn't want to do that because like that's evil I don't know, dude, you got to do that to create your art nah, I mean, yeah, we'll see it is. It is very time consuming and slow for me to have to try and make every model myself, which is I wish I could do it, but I'm a mortal man and I only have so long on this earth right, you know, like I got to.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I mean, speed and time are of the essence. They are very important. So, like, yeah, using some 3D models in games would help, and like I don't know, but I don't want to do it. I try to just get my friends to do it and like people who are like willing. I don't know, we'll see. But yeah, I think I'll probably be safe. Even if I like lose a job or become unemployed, I'm still going to be working on my own things. I'm still going to creating my own stuff, always Like and like. Hopefully that turns into my main source of income within like five to 10 years. That's, that's kind of my goal.
Speaker 1:That's an awesome goal. Yeah, yeah, brandon, we've had a great conversation. Are there any last words or last ideas you'd like to leave the audience?
Speaker 2:I'm not sure. I don't know. Don't let the robots win, whatever that means to you. Use them to help you. It's been great talking to you. Uh, use them to help you. But yeah, I mean, it's been great talking to you, man, this was, this was fun. I. I like this. Hopefully I don't come off too crazy with all the stuff that I said, but it's probably a little bit no, not how it, how it goes.
Speaker 1:No, not how it. No, not too crazy.
Speaker 2:Just you know, gamer developer crazy yeah, unavoidable to a certain extent, I guess. But yeah, thank you for having me on the podcast man. I really like.