The Suburban Women Problem - Season 2, Episode 38

Rachel Vindman: Hi, everyone. Thanks for listening. I'm Rachel Vindman.  

Jasmine Clark: I'm Jasmine Clark.

Amanda Weinstein: I'm Amanda Weinstein.

Rachel: And today we are joined by a very special guest, Dr. Allison Gill. 

Dr. Allison Gill: Hey everyone. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and I'm so proud to be part of this group and all the work that you are doing. Seriously. It's so important. It's so, so important. So thank you for having me.  

Rachel: Well, thank you. And if you don't know who Allison is, she is a military veteran who hosted the incredibly popular podcast Mueller She Wrote and is now the co-host of the women led news podcast The Daily Beans, which I love. I've been a guest on both shows and Allison is really my go-to source for so much of what is going on because she breaks it down. She knows it inside it out, and it's just a great listen, great newsletter, all the stuff. I'm a huge fan. 

Allison: Thank you so much. Same about this, I absolutely love your show. So all this incredible work that women are doing, it's just super empowering.

Amanda: And a great follow on Twitter. 

Allison: My slap-backs at Republicans are, are a, a ratio favorite of many.

Jasmine: We love those. Well, before we dive into our conversation with Allison, let's do our weekly midterm countdown. We are now just seven weeks out from the midterm elections. If you haven't gotten involved yet, it's not too late. You can sign up for the Great Troublemaker Turnout at redwine.blue. Amanda, you have been giving us our pregnancy sizes. So where are we?

Amanda: I did look it up! Seven weeks from birth would be your baby's the size of a pineapple. So we have like a little pineapple election. Pineapple makes me squirm in my seat when I hear that comparison. But that's what it said. 

Allison: Pineapple does sound painful. 

Amanda: Yeah, it does. I was like this– spiky, yes. I mean we're close, seven weeks is close. 

Rachel: So Allison, we are so excited to have you joining us for a special crossover episode of The Suburban Women Problem today. We wanna talk about your work and the January 6th committee and Trump's classified documents and all of that. But first, we really need to talk about what Lindsey Graham did last week.

Amanda: Oh, Lindsey Graham.

Rachel: I don't… at first I kept trying to understand it, all day. Right? I kept thinking, like, “Maybe it's this. No, maybe it's this.” And I never really got, I don't know why he did what he did. What do you think, Allison? 

Allison: Well, I'm frankly very excited that he did what he did because he just kind of put a huge nail in the coffin in the Republican party in the midterms. We have so many people turning out, I mean, the number one polling issue for people coming into the midterms is the threats to democracy. And one of the major threats to democracy is the fact that none of us here today are full citizens as long as Roe V. Wade has been overturned. And to be a part of that diaspora, to be a part of that group really, really motivates women of all ages, but especially young women. And it is the youth vote that is so very important. It's gonna be so very important in these midterms.

And for him to just come out and say, “yeah, we're gonna do a national abortion ban, even though our reasoning for the whole overturning Roe V. Wade was states' rights”... where have I heard states' rights before?

Jasmine: Oh, I hate that term. Like literally makes me cringe every time I hear it.

Amanda: So, it wasn't states’ rights all along! It was always something else.  

Jasmine: Odd, odd that that's exactly what we pretty much said it was.

Allison: Mm-hmm. And when, when we talk about what, you know, what we are and are not taught in school, I was taught in school that, for example, the Civil War was fought over states' rights. And then somebody raised their hand and said, “states’ rights to do what?” And we can apply that same question here. 

And Lindsey Graham has doubled down and said, “we want a national abortion ban.” Forget what he said about states' rights. We don't want the states to have this particular right. We just want it where it fits our christo-fascist nationalist – and by the way, it's, it's white nationalist, if we're gonna be serious– and, and so I'm frankly thrilled that Lindsey Graham decided to come out and do this, especially while he's under criminal investigation. 

Jasmine: Right. In Georgia! In Georgia.

Amanda: And I mean, this is the party of small government who is saying, “we wanna take rights away from people and give them to government.” Like. Okay. Again, it's like hypocrisy on top of hypocrisy.

Jasmine: Well, not only that we're at that point now where the men are just getting more and more ridiculous. And I say this as a person who loves men, but I'm sorry, they're getting ridiculous right now. First, let's be clear. This ban, this 15 week abortion ban that he's proposing, will not affect the states that are already trying to ban abortion. It's not like in the states where they're like, “no, we wanna ban abortion at six weeks” that this one will move it up to 15. That's not what's gonna happen. It's going to take the states that are not putting these restrictions on abortion and now place a restriction on those states. 

And that's very dangerous. And I mean, in the pregnancy timeline it's before you have some very key information, right, that a lot of people use to make decisions.

Amanda: Yeah. The 20 week scan. 

Rachel: Yes. That's a really important point. Really important point.

Amanda: It's almost like he hasn't been through a 20 week scan to know that. And to know that 15 weeks is probably not a good point. But I think he did it because he thinks most people, you know, this might be where a lot of people think after 15 weeks, they're not personally okay with that. So I think he thinks of, of any, like, section of people like this might be the timeframe that they're okay with. But we had an episode where we talked about that and where we talked about real women who have had to make that choice. So we have already been having these discussions.

Allison: And, and here's what he's not saying to folks who live in states that have six week abortion bans or total abortion bans. There's something called the Supremacy Clause, which means that federal law supersedes any state law. And if he's trying to bring pure pro-life or anti-choice people on board, has he explained to them that if he passes his 15 week nationwide abortion ban, that people who live in states with total abortion bans would be able to sue under the Supremacy Clause? To say “that means I can have an abortion up to 15 weeks”?

So even if he gets his way, he is alienating, you know, that 8% of people who like this idea who live in total abortion ban states. He's just not very smart. They don't have second level thinking. Or he is completely smart and leaving that tidbit out to just get people to vote based on their feelings and not facts.

Rachel: I like that he said, “we wanna define who we are.” I'm like, “oh, you've done that. Loud and clear.” 

And a lot of Republicans assume that their constituents do not know the law. We talk about that a lot, I think. I mean, Jasmine's talked about that a lot. They prey on people and they want to keep them ignorant, because that's the way the whole, I don't know, house of cards if you will, works. It's predicated on a level of ignorance and for people, maybe not to know what a functioning government can give you. And I think that's why it's so powerful, what the Biden administration has done, and that we keep giving them room and space to do that because people can see a real difference between the Trump administration and a functional administration that is doing things for the people. It's really important. 

Allison: Absolutely. You know, I did a piece in an op-ed in the Washington Post about how this national abortion ban or overturning Roe impacts active duty service members. And of course, veterans, now we have the VA coming out and changing their minds, saying “we are now willing to perform abortions in cases with rape and incest,” which they didn't have on the table before. It was just life of the mother. So that opens up abortion care for a lot of veterans as well. 

Amanda: I mean, I think that's an important step, but it still leaves like death panels for veterans. So if I get pregnant and I need this service because it's, you know, my life is affected, it's not me deciding this, right. I'm not saying, “I'm a veteran. I need care. My life is, you know, in danger.” They’re like, “but how in danger is it?” Right? “Let's go ask the lawyers and we'll let the lawyers decide.” You still have death panels. So it's better than nothing, but I mean, there's holes. 

Allison: And it depends on the VA. 

Amanda: That's true too.

Allison: Because as we say–I worked for the department of veterans affairs for 12 years–and as we say, “if you've seen one VA, you've seen one VA.” So, depending on where it's at, they might have different feelings about how to apply this law.

Now, here in California, we don't have an abortion ban. I can go get an abortion every Tuesday at five if I feel like it. 

Jasmine: That's what they think that you're doing, by the way. Like, that's what I think we're all doing. 

Allison: But the thing, the thing is that with regards to veterans, the thing that would've taken my life wouldn't have been the actual birth. It would've been the mental health issues that ensued by having to give birth to a rapist’s baby. 

And I think there are some VAs, hopefully most VAs, particularly this administration's leadership, where mental health of the mother might also count. Not just physical, you know, ectopic pregnancies, et cetera, et cetera, and things like that. So that has to be taken into consideration. 

And I didn't, I unfortunately didn't hear any Congresspeople recently ask the Undersecretary of Health for the department of Veterans Affairs in a hearing whether or not mental healthcare of the mother would count. Because that did, that would've threatened my life. Speaking of, you know, suicidal ideation, PTSD, etc to be forced to give birth. And then, you know, we have the forced labor amendment. I mean, there's just so many things that can be argued. 

Amanda: And this is a big issue for the military. When we have 40% of female military officers that don't have access to an abortion, and at the same time, we have issues with sexual assault in the military. Those two things aren't a good combo. Like neither of them are great, but in combination, this is really not good for our military members. 

Allison: Yeah. And that was a big part of my op-ed in the Washington Post. I am a survivor of military sexual trauma and a pregnancy resulted. And I was in Florida. And had I not been able to walk right out of the base on my couple hours of, you know, free time on the weekends, I would have had to request leave for travel. And in order to do that in the military, you have to tell them what you wanna take your leave for. 

So what's cool is, maybe in response to my op-ed or just maybe because it's the right thing to do, at least the National Guard and the Air Force now have said all leave for all medical leave for travel for care will be approved. The only problem is that a lot of, I think, active duty service members, don't like to tell their command that they're getting mental healthcare, or that they're traveling for care, because if they do request that care, it's clearly for an abortion. Because everything else can be handled at the military treatment facility. So they'll know, right. They'll know what it's about. And that still puts that still will chill a lot of it, you know what I mean? 

Amanda: I mean, and this is still an issue in the military, I don't know your experience, but mine was that any issue that was specific to women and medical issues was like, “oh wait, this is weird,” right? “You're not like the others.” 

Allison: Dude, Amanda, they didn't even, I was one of the first women in the nuclear program. They didn't even have a GYN on base. When I asked for a pap smear to get my, to get my birth control pills, they sent a dentist in to talk to me. And I, I was like, “That's not gonna… the mouth is different? Um, that's not where we have babies from.” So I ended up having to get sent to Jacksonville, you know, many hundreds of miles away to get, to get my– I'm not even talking about abortion care, I'm just talking about pap smears. So it's, yeah, it's very like… I hope, I think they've probably come a long way since the 25 years ago that I was in, but it's still, I imagine very like, “ooh…” 

Amanda: It's still little, I mean, so even at the VA, so I have VA care and even like, when I was pregnant, like I walk in there and they don't deal with a lot of pregnant veterans. Right. It's mostly me and a bunch of older men. Right. So I'm, you know, I'm pregnant and they're like, “Ooh. Um, alright.” There's like a form I remember, and it said something like, “what's your medical concern to alleviate?” And it was pregnancy. I'm like, “No, I don't wanna alleviate it. That's not what I'm here for. Like there's no other box. Like that's the only box.” And I was like, “this, this doesn't fit my situation.” And they said, “It's just what we have to fill out.” And I was like, “Okay?” 

But like, even then it was like, everything was outsourced. Like all the “women things” were outsourced at the VA. Like it's still, I'm the exception, not the rule.

Allison: Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. They don't have maternity care at the Department of Veterans Affairs. They don't have facilities, they don't have the staff, they don't have the people. So they send you to your nearest maternity, you know, hospital with maternity and then reimburse the bill and that's a giant pain in the butt, you know, to make sure that your bills are paid, because you end up with these huge bills and then you're like, “Hey VA, can you pay this bill that you said?” And they're like, “Yeah, we'll get around to it in 2028,” you know? Meanwhile, you're racking up like fees and late fees and stuff like that. It's it's not made for women still.

Amanda: No, no. I think it took, I think I had like a three year old by the time the VA paid off my medical bills for the delivery. And I was like, “oh, she's three now.”

Jasmine: That's like regular, like for even regular insurance. So I can't even imagine with the VA, just from stories that I've heard.

But I would like to ask about your podcast, Allison. I'm new to podcasting, I think we’re going on a year now? Oh no, over a year. A year and a half, year and a half. It's crazy. Cuz I never thought I would be a podcaster. And so I'm curious, Allison, why did you decide to start Mueller She Wrote? 

Allison: Well, I was watching, back in 2017, a couple months after Robert Mueller had been appointed special counsel, MSNBC was rerunning a documentary about Watergate called All the President's Men Revisited. It was from like 2013 or something like that. And they were rerunning it presumably because of the parallels between what, you know, what we thought was Nixon and Trump. Now we know that Donald Trump is much worse than Nixon was. 

But I was like, “You know what? I bet in 20 or 30 years, they're gonna be running documentaries on the Trump/Russia investigation. I wanna be part of that. But I don't have a journalism degree. I don't have a news desk.” And so podcasting was the answer, because I think the thing, one of the things I love the most about podcasting is it's accessible to everyone. That's how it started. We recorded our first episode when Manafort and Gates were indicted, from my kitchen table, and the rest is history.

Rachel: But some, some kind of touchy history. Can you tell us about losing your job?  

Allison: Yeah. In April just after the Mueller report came out, I, I, we had been. Uh, we were at that point, a pretty famous podcast and we were gonna put out a 20 part series going over what the Mueller Report really said, which was counter to the narrative that Bill Barr and Donald Trump were trying to spin. That there was “no collusion” and “I'm totally exonerated.”

And right around that time, my brand new bosses– cuz my, my previous supervisor and director of the interagency health affairs had been removed I guess, or retired– and they flew out on your dime to San Diego to sit me down and tell me that my job was moving across the country and I could either be fired or move to DC. Now they knew I couldn't move to DC because my family is here in Southern California and Phoenix, so they knew I couldn't move. So I said, “okay, I will sign the thing that says I'm not moving and you can fire me. And I'm gonna take all 12 weeks of leave that I've earned and go on leave for the next three months.”

And during that time you know, I was still working on the podcast, recording the podcast, but I had a lawyer advising me how not to violate the Hatch Act, run afoul of any ethics violations, because most of us who work in the government have some ethics. And he said, “You know what? Just to be safe, don't do any recording or working on your podcast during the day, during what would normally be working hours.” So I said, okay, so I did everything at night and on the weekends.

And the day I got back, 12 weeks later, they still didn't fire me. They said they set up a phone call between me and my supervisor, and I thought it was gonna be a phone call saying, “Welcome back. Here's what you missed for the last 12 weeks.” But instead I was greeted with a “This is a fact finding investigation. You will answer all of our questions.” I asked for my lawyer to be present and they said, “No, you don't get a lawyer. Are you refusing a direct order from your supervisor?” I said, I said, “No, I'll answer your questions.” 

And so they took me on this weird clown law court show Perry Mason journey, you know, where they asked me, like, “Go to Muellershewrote.com, click hosts, scroll down. Is that you?” And I'm like, “I've worked with you for 12 years, you know, you know that that's me.”

Rachel: Yeah. Thanks Matlock. 

Amanda: Wait. So, what was so offensive? Like what about the podcast was super offensive to them? 

Allison: I was telling the truth about the investigation. 

Amanda: Oh, yeah, that's offensive. How dare you.

Allison: I was a huge thorn, I didn't realize how huge of a thorn I was on the side of Bill Barr and Donald Trump and Rod Rosenstein trying to spin the hell out of this, out of the Mueller Report release. But apparently I was, and I didn't learn until much later through some FOIA requests that they were actually monitoring my social media at the highest levels, particularly my posts about whistleblowers and accountability at the VA being totally abused by the Trump administration, being used to go after whistleblowers instead of protecting them. They basically used it to be like, “Oh, who's a whistleblower this week?” And then they would find those people and get rid of them by doing the old Mick Mulvaney trick, moving their job across the country to get them to quit.

So it was very interesting, but you know, the cool thing is, remember earlier in the show, I was talking about how they don't think second steps and third steps? By firing me, they finally fired me in March of 2020, they freed me up from the Hatch Act, which allowed me to fundraise for political campaigns. And we were able to raise about half a million dollars for Biden and Harris and Ossoff and Warnock. So sure, you fired me, but I helped fire you.  

Amanda: I love that. Oh, that's a good story. Now no more Hatch Act!

Allison: Exactly. If they would've just kept me in my job, working from home, I wouldn't have been able to raise all that money and fire 'em!

Rachel: I am the only Vindman that doesn't work or has never worked for the government, and I am the unleashed and untethered one. And I, I only know my family's own experience, but I have no doubt after, because I know Allison and I know her story, I have no doubt that they are going after anyone to try to keep people in line because they do think they will come back to power. The Republicans will come back to power. And they want to show what they've done. And, you know, kind of offer this as like, “Look, we didn't allow these people, you know, in our organization, et cetera, et cetera.” I very much think that's happening.

But you know, we've had like 118 scandals since the Mueller report. Can you just, you know, revisit that for a second? 

Jasmine: I was just about to say it's like, it feels like a time warp, like so many things have happened. I'm like, “Which one is that? Which one is that?” 

Rachel: What do you think were the top, you know, takeaways from the Mueller Report?

Allison: That Russia interferes heavily in our elections. And that Bill Barr tried to cover that up. It was found, now this wasn't big news, but it was found that his redactions of the Mueller report were inappropriate and overly broad. Most of them were to hide the depth and breadth of Russian interference in the election. But Donald Trump didn't wanna hear anything about it. He opposed anything about, you know, Russia being a bad guy at all whatsoever. And so I think that is, you know, the main takeaway: that when we don't hold people accountable, they do things again, the very next day in this particular case. 

Rachel: The very next day.

Allison: I was on stage in Chicago on July 27th when a little birdy whispered in our ear named Adam Schiff, who said “We have a whistleblower problem with regards to a phone call. We'll get you more information soon.” And we were waiting for impeachment proceedings to begin based on the Mueller investigation or at least the Senate Committee on Intelligence findings. Also mysteriously Senator Burr was put under investigation for insider trading and removed as head of the Senate Intelligence Committee just a couple of months before the Senate intelligence report came out on Trump and Russia. So that put Marco Rubio in charge of spinning the findings, of course, which he did what Bill Barr did.

So it's all very corrupt. And I think that we're finding as time goes on, the corruption runs deeper than we know. The trial for Thomas Barrack starts this week for, for espionage, for being a registered agent for the UAE and accepting 374 million to push their interests with the Trump administration. That came out of the Mueller investigation.

And we still see some of that obstruction come through in potentially future indictments for obstruction in the, in the 1519, in the documents case, because the statute of limitations… the clock doesn't start ticking until you stop criming. And he hasn't stopped obstructing justice since he stepped foot in the Oval Office.

And so those charges could either be brought or that behavior in the Mueller Report, in volume two of obstruction of justice, could be brought to show totality of the evidence of a pattern of behavior, of obstruction of justice. So it could be used as evidence or to bring charges. 

We'll see, but I'm…. I am more sure than ever, even though, you know, Lucy's removed the football several times for me, that there will be some criminal consequences. There will be some criminal consequences for this, for stealing classified documents and lying about it. Lying about it is the big charge.  

Amanda: I mean, I also feel like, I don't know if this is just my military strategic studies, but like… Russia's not our friend. Like, we have the Cold War, we have lots of information. They are not our friend. I feel like when Republicans talk about, “Oh, you know, it's Russia. It's just any other country.” I'm like, “No, it's not any other country. They're not our friends. They don't want good things for us.”

Allison: Yeah. And now Trump, at his rallies, he's able to get middle class, lower class, working class Americans to cheer for Russia.

Jasmine: Yeah. To cheer for Russia.

Allison: Mm-hmm. For Russia, for Putin and for the UAE. And for Saudi Arabia, for Muhammad Bone Saw we call him. Like they’re cheering dictators. Victor Orban is like one of their big guys at CPAC. And, and it’s like, yeah. What world do we live in where you're cheering for Putin? 

Rachel: This is who they are. This is what they will do in another administration. This is the… you said accountability. Accountability has to happen. It's the only thing that's going to stop them and make them pause and think about what they're doing. 

Amanda: All right. Before we go to the break, though, we have to talk about your new podcast, The Daily Beans. What is it like doing that podcast? What do you guys talk about and how is it like hosting with other amazing women? 

Allison: Oh, yeah, Dana Goldberg, my co-host, a comedian, a woman, she's raised over $35 million for Human Rights Campaign and she's just an absolutely brilliant and funny and hilarious woman. And, and that's, that's the idea, right? We needed to pivot away from the Mueller investigation because that was going to end. So that was a weekly, and now we do a daily morning news show called The Daily Beans. 

And the way that it came about was I would watch Maddow and I would see her wanting to say “WTF,” you know, like I would see her wanting to swear, so I was like, “You know what? We need news with swearing.” And where can we do that? With podcasting! And we've just been able to get the most incredible guests, like Rachel, for example. It's truly been an incredible journey to be able to, to bring the news from a woman's perspective. I think women have a different view of justice than men do. And from a humor perspective, and of course, with appropriate profanity, it's been, it's been cathartic. 

Amanda: I love that. Can I say, it has been a hard transition from the military to academia because apparently in academia you don't swear that much or like nobody else does, but I still do because in the military you kind of do. So I feel like that is some of the military background where you're like, “Let's bring that in.” 

Allison: Yeah. And, and working for the Department of Veterans Affairs too, when you get up in the higher echelons at executive tables with like General Mattis, everyone's dropping F bombs. It's pretty great. 

Jasmine: Oh, wow. Yeah, I'm on the, I've only been in the academia side, so I'm like, yeah, I do not have that perspective. I feel like everyone would look at me crazy if I even said, like, “Hell.” They'd be like “Whaaaaaat? Oh, no!” 

All right. Well, I hate to put a pause on this conversation because it has been so amazing, but we do need to take a quick break. Don't worry. When we come back, we'll have more with Alison Gill of Mueller She Wrote and The Daily Beans.

BREAK

Amanda: Welcome back everyone. We are here with Allison Gill and it was awesome to hear about Mueller She Wrote and The Daily Beans before we went to break. Now that we're back, let's talk about what in the heck is going on with Trump. There's been so much to talk about lately with abortion rights and what's happening in our schools that we've barely been talked about the January 6th hearings or the classified documents found at Mar Lago. And it seems like every day, some bizarre new thing is in the news. 

So I've actually heard people speculate that some of what Lindsay Graham did was to deflect a bunch of attention away from what was going on with Trump and Mar-A-Lago. Like, we can, we can focus on more than one thing! I was like, I can make my kids lunches while also yelling at my husband that he didn't do something! Haha. Like, I can do both. 

So let's talk about it. What is going on with all of this stuff? 

Jasmine: I think we should start with Mar-a-Lago. Cause I feel like a lot of things, all, a lot of the crazy is an extension of Trump being, you know, investigated and finding these classified documents and all those things. And then everything just kind of got crazy after that. So I think we should start there.

Amanda: Also with Allison's military background, too, this is nuts to me. The amount of training you have to go through to handle secret documents and top secret documents to have this level of screwing this up with secret documents is just unheard of.

Allison: Yeah, no, it absolutely is. And I put out a thread about how, you know, was part of my, one of my ancillary duties was I was in charge of the vault guarding the nuclear reactive manuals. Which aren't as classified as some of the documents that we are hearing were kept in a desk drawer at Mar-A-Lago with some hamburger wrappers.

So the, you know, these, these briefings by the department of justice and now the appeal to the 11th circuit are super clear. The law is clear. You do not get to decide, the courts do not get to decide as a matter of separation of powers, nor does a special master get to decide, what is classified and what is not. If in fact, Donald's actually saying he declassified these documents, which by the way, he's too chicken to say, because that could probably be a line and he could perjure himself to a court. But even if he says that, we still need access to these documents to assess them, to see if his claim is true. This is the executive branch, the judicial branch doesn't get to step in and tell the executive branch how to do its job. It's called the constitution. You should check it out. It's nice. 

And one of the coolest things, there was an Amicus Brief filed by a group of former and current Republicans today and they're like, “Why are you putting this person, who is a citizen, above any other citizen and giving him deferential treatment? It is the opposite of what you are purporting to say that you're doing,” speaking to Judge Aileen Cannon. You know, you're like, “We need to give everybody equitable jurisdiction under the law,” but by giving him preferential treatment for no reason and without evidence, you’re going against the very thing you're trying to do. 

And I, I think they have a good chance with the 11th circuit, even though there's six Trump appointees there. They're very about the Supreme executive and the executive, having a bunch of power. It'll be interesting to see how they decide. And I think that their speed, the speed with which they're asking for a response, is a good indication that they're really taking this seriously. 

Jasmine: It's been a little hard to follow for us non lawyers, like all the details when it comes to the special master ruling by Judge Cannon and you know, what's going on now. But I will say that it's not hard for me to understand that classified documents are not to just be thrown around all willy-nilly, and it is really not hard for me to understand that that ruling about “Oh, we need a special master”... this was really more of a delay and not anything else. 

One of the things I can say as someone just kind of watching and trying to understand is that we have been a little afraid of the courts in the past kind of bending to Trump's will. And that's what I feel like Judge Cannon did. However, during the whole, like, “let's overturn the election” thing, it was actually those courts that despite being Trump appointees still said, “No, we're not, we're not overturning elections, we're not in that space.” I'm hoping that these Trump appointees will still do the right thing and still care more about their country than the person who appointed them. To say, “this is not okay. And we need to do the right thing.” I am just crossing my fingers. 

Rachel: I think there are some.

Allison: There are, there are a few. And you know, I, I'm not a lawyer, but I do speak lawyer, just reading all this stuff for the last five years. So if you do follow me @MuellerSheWrote, I break these down in pretty straightforward layman's terms, these filings. With some, again, appropriate profanity. So that folks can kind of understand a little bit better. This is why I put out the Mueller She Wrote podcast, is because I wanted people to be on board and to pay attention to it. But that Mueller report is a snoozer and it's long . You know, you can't put the Mueller Report on a bumper sticker, so that's kind of what I try to do. They call me the docket whisperer. 

Rachel: You know, when we're talking about this stuff, guys, this goes back to what we always talk about: our relational organizing. Because in these news silos, they're not getting the truth. And if you have a little bit of truth– or, okay, well, you have a lot of truth–but if you have a little truth that you can share, you can be like, “well, I actually heard, or I read this” and then give it to them, give them Allison's information, let them maybe go and see it for themselves. But you can discuss it. You don't have to be afraid of it because she breaks it down in a way that you don't have to be afraid of it. And I think that's really important. 

Amanda: So I was wondering Allison, if you could break down, what do you think is happening with January 6th? It's coming back in late September, which timing wise is very good, right, that's when the shows come back. We have Handmaid’s Tale back out, now we have The Good Fight that is out– 

Rachel: Survivor, that's a Vindman family favorite, starts this week!

Amanda: Haha yeah! And along with all of this is the January 6th committee! I was like, “Good airing, Democrats. I like it.” All right, so what's gonna happen?

Allison: Yeah. I think they're gonna focus a lot on the funding of January 6th. Right now we know that–

Amanda: Oh yes, the money, follow that money! 

Allison: We know that the Department of Justice has recently opened a criminal investigation into Trump's PAC, Save America PAC. We know as back as last September, a year ago, they opened an investigation into Sydney Powell's PAC,

and how she's funding not just the insurrection, but lawyers for witnesses to January 6th and the insurrection, including the Oathkeepers. So there's a lot of “follow the money” I think, is what they're gonna be looking at.

But they also just started getting another trove of documents and the, you know, Mark Meadows’ text messages that he gave to the committee are now in the hands of the Department of Justice, because he was subpoenaed. And it seems like the Justice Department, you know, they were working in radio silence for a while and we felt like they were behind, and now it looks like they're right on pace with the January 6th committee.

And I just wanna make sure everybody understands the DOJ cannot finish its investigation until the January 6th committee finishes their investigation. And the reason is, is because in the old Michael Sussman/John Durham thing, there was one witness, it was Peter Baker at the FBI. This was Bill Barr trying to go after Michael Sussman, who worked for the Clinton campaign, and they failed miserably because the one witness told Congress one thing, told the Inspector General another thing, and told the Department of Justice grand jury another thing. And he didn't lie. He just had inconsistent testimony. So the department of justice must have all of the testimony given in the January 6th committee. Not because they don't wanna do the work, but because they have to compare it to their own testimony and records so that there isn't a compromised impeachable witness. Because they might have this star witness like Mark Meadows… if he told the January 6th committee one thing and told the Department of Justice another, then Donald Trump could impeach that witness on the stand and they could lose their case. 

So I'm excited that we're gonna have these public facing hearings so close to the election because the Department of Justice doesn't make overt investigative steps within 60 days of an election. So now it's gonna be in the news, it's gonna stay in the news. 

I also just want everybody to be prepared that that does push back, that does delay a Department of Justice investigation a little bit. It doesn't stop it, obviously. But to just to be prepared for that eventuality. And I also want people to temper their expectations about when Trump does get arrested, there's not gonna be a take-down tackle and shackle pay review style event where he is perp-walked in his underwear. 

Rachel: He would probably like that, actually. So I'm glad he won't get it. 

Allison: He would probably complain that it didn't happen. Right? 

Jasmine: Yeah. I think that's what that's, what more likely would happen, he’d be like “They didn't even arrest me correctly!”

Allison: And if he is tried and convicted and convicted and that's sustained upon appeal, I don't know that he'll actually ever see the inside of a jail cell because of the complications with regards to Secret Service. He may be just forced to be on house arrest for the rest of his life, with a couple of ankle, some ankle jewelry, you know.

Rachel: I'm okay with that.

Allison: I'm okay with it too. I'm more excited about Tish James in New York completely suing and gutting the entire Trump organization and leaving him penniless. That's what I'm looking forward to. And then Fani Willis' incredible work down in Fulton County, she's gonna bring some indictments as well.

Jasmine: Go Georgia.

Allison: And those can't be pardoned. Those can't be pardoned if she indicts like Lindsey Graham, let's say, there can be no pardon. Even if a Republican wins the White House in 2024, there can be no pardon for that. 

Jasmine: Yes. I love that. Well, speaking of the awesome work that Fani is doing in Georgia and Leticia is doing up in New York, I think this is a perfect time to transition to our Toast to Joy. So Allison, I just wanna say, thank you so much for joining us today. You know, this has been an amazing conversation. I wish we could just keep going and going and going, there's so much that we could talk about when it comes to these subjects.

But let's transition to our Toast to Joy and I'm actually gonna start. So my Toast to Joy this week is to taking ten teenagers to six flags over Georgia and surviving. It was definitely an experience. So we went on a Sunday and there were like no lines, like none. I never, well, so I didn't get to ride cuz I was the chaperone, I was like the adult that was getting in the way of all the fun. I was the coat hanger, I carried lots of bags, but it was so nice just seeing my daughter have fun with her friends. My last Toast to Joy was to her birthday, and so this was her birthday party and yeah, I survived it. I would do it again. Although maybe next time I'm gonna be like, all right, everyone, leave your bags at home. I'm not doing that again, cause they were heavy. They were like, I don't know what those kids were carrying, but there were some heavy purses. 

Rachel: My daughter does that. She has been carrying lately... I mean she's only 11, but she started carrying a purse. I'm like, “What is in your purse? And why do you need it when you go out and play in the neighborhood?” I'm very confused by that. Maybe I need to do a bag check.

Amanda: Oh, that's so cute. 

Allison: Well, are you, Rachel, are you always pulling things outta your purse that people need? Are you that person? 

Rachel: Oh I am that person, a I carry always a big bag.

Allison: She probably just wants to be just like you. 

Amanda: Aw. 

Rachel: Yeah. You know, there is, there is that possibility. 

Allison: She's pulling out bandaids for neighborhood kids. 

Rachel: Haha. Yes, right. It's probably true.

Jasmine: So Amanda, what is your Toast to Joy this week? 

Amanda: So my Toast to Joy, so I was actually in Vienna last week, which was super fun. I got to go by myself and everyone's like, “Oh my gosh, it’s such long plane ride.” And I'm like, “Yeah. But nine hours by yourself is equivalent to like two hours with three kids. Like, kind of same thing, right?” But it was so fun. I'd never been to Vienna. So I had some time to walk around this city and it was really fun and like having public transportation, I was like, wow, this is so cool. And I actually got to go and I had a meeting at the United Nations Industrial Development organization and it was super fun. And it was really nice to talk with just people from around the world who are studying and researching similar things. And it was a super good experience. Loved it. Highly recommend. 

Allison, what is your Toast to Joy? 

Allison: Oh, my Toast to Joy is this week I was invited by Joseph Robinette Biden to go to the White House to celebrate the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act, for my hand in helping getting it passed. Woo. And one of my favorite moments was I got to talk to Elizabeth Warren.

Amanda: Love her!

Allison: Right? Who was my first choice for president. And while, you know, while I say Joe Biden was like, number five or number six, he really has met the moment. He's blown my mind. He's been perfect. Well, maybe not perfect, but you know, you, you catch my drift. But when I saw Elizabeth Warren, I went up and I thanked her for the provision she slid into the American Rescue Plan a couple of years ago, which said that any student debt forgiveness up to $50,000 would not be subject to federal income tax. And I said, “Thank you so much for that little bit,” because then when Joe Biden forgave $10,000 and $20,000 of student debt, everybody would be complaining that they would be taxed on that loan forgiveness. And she made that so it didn't happen. Very quietly, very simply. 

And she looked at me and she gave me two snaps up and then she licked her finger and put it on her rear end and went “tssssss.”

Rachel: Oh my goodness!

Allison: And then she goes, she goes, “It's all about planning.” And I was like, oh my God, you're my hero. 

So that was just one of the coolest things to be able to sit and watch the president speak, watch Nancy Pelosi and Senator Schumer speak, the president of International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, Boston 103, introduced the president, and then to just be able to hang out with all those incredible people that day was truly, truly joyful. So that's my Toast for Joy. 

Amanda: That is amazing. So that reminds me of, I got to meet Kirsten Gillibrand one time and I got to talk to her and I thanked her specifically for her work on the Military Justice Improvement Act, work that she has done, which I know it's not passed yet, however, it is very meaningful to me that she is working on this. And, and it was really interesting cuz this was like this was, this is when Hillary Clinton was running. So there's like this room full of big donors, I think I was the only woman in this room, and I just said “Real quick, I just wanna thank you for this. It means a lot to me.” And she stopped and she came and talked to me for like 10 minutes. And all these dudes were like, “Who the hell does she think she is?” But it was really meaningful that I said something very specific she did and she loved talking about it. 

And. So Kirsten Gilliband recently was trying to get the Cadet Act passed, I don't know if you know about this one. So they actually slipped it into the defense… I think it's a defense authorization bill? So now for all of the cadets that are at all of the academies, it is basically okay if you're a parent. Because right now what they do is they actually force people to get abortions or leave, which is crazy. And I think a lot of people don't realize like, you know, when you don't have the right to make those decisions, the government can make you get an abortion just as well as they can prevent you from one.

Rachel: No, it was a, it was a really big thing that she did. And it hasn't been talked about much. I don't know, I feel like there's a lot of women… we've been talking about a lot of women out there who are working and they've worked for a long time before they got a lot of praise. And they still do a lot of stuff and no one is recognizing it, acknowledging it.

Allison: We were working with Kirsten Gillibrand, Senator Gillibrand, on the Military Adjustment Improvement Act. I remember going back to a decade ago when the film I was in, The Invisible War came out. That's when it–

Amanda: I love that documentary!

Allison: I was in that one! 

Rachel: I'll have to go back and watch it again.

Amanda: Oh my God. It's so good. So I saw a screening in Columbus, and the most meaningful thing to me was when, and I'm already forgetting who it was, but basically someone who was higher up heard the situation and he did fix something. There’s still issues, like we know this, however, even just hearing it and fixing it was really meaningful that someone listened and did something. Because a lot of it just gets swept under the rug and you get so sick of seeing everything swept under the rug and ignored. And that part brought me to tears. It was very meaningful for me.

Allison: For me, it was hearing several other people say the exact same things were said to them when they tried to report. It was when I saw that film, when I saw it at the premiere, and that was when I realized that I wasn't alone. And when you know that you're not alone, no one can gaslight you anymore and tell you that you're crazy for what you think. And it was just super cathartic.  

Rachel: Very powerful. No one can gaslight you. I love that. 

Well, I guess I will share my Toast to Joy. I guess I just kind of said it– it's, it's just to the amazing women that I've gotten to know through this whole journey. Allison was one of the first people who reached out to me for me, not for Alex. And I was able to share my story, our story with her, and maybe kind of realized I could maybe tell my story, that it was something that might resonate with some people. 

And now I think as we've gotten much further down this road of the importance of accountability and how vital it is so that we don't end up back in that same place where worse things happen. And I think we don't even know all the bad things that have happened. And in all this, I feel so encouraged by so many amazing women who are always doing great things. And, you know, here Allison has a totally different career, you know, than what she studied, what she devoted her life to. And other people who do it in addition to the things that they do. And maybe, you know, even to the detriment of their real careers. But hey refuse to be silent. They speak. And they tell the truth. Women are understanding… I mean, they're meeting the moment of the Dobbs decision, but I think even before this, this moment was already growing. This groundswell of like, “Look, I don't think you guys know what you're doing. So let's come in here and clean this up and fix it.” 

Amanda: I think that's a good point, Rachel. And I also think like what you've done and what Allison has done, like women were just waiting, a lot even before the Dobbs stuff, but no one was talking to them and no one was saying, “This is for you too.”

Rachel: Yeah, no, I completely agree.

Allison: It's the decade of accountability. Starting with the Me Too movement, whistleblowers, all these women podcasting, speaking to power. And it's growing. And I think that, that, you know, when I gave the whistleblower speech at, on Whistleblower Day, I was like, this isn't just about us and what happened to us, This is about going forward and leading. Creating a situation that allows and celebrates whistleblowers, and accountability, and transparency. I think that's a huge movement that's the unintended consequence of trying to drive fascism into the, into this country.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah. Like, “Sorry. We're not gonna take it.”

You know, thank you so much everyone for joining us today for this very fun crossover episode. This was such a joy. And if you're enjoying the show, please share it with someone you know. Maybe you know someone who's a fan of Mueller She Wrote or The Daily Beans, but hasn't heard of The Suburban Women Problem, or likewise, if you listen to our podcast, but you've never heard Allison's work, you absolutely should now that you know how wonderful she is and how she can really break down these super complicated things for you. So subscribe to The Daily Beans. Thank you again for listening, we will see you again on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.