The Suburban Women Problem - Kitchen Table Conversations, Raleigh Suburbs

Rachel: Hi everyone. This is Rachel Vindman and I am on the fifth stop, my third state, on my Troublemaker Tour. I am sitting in a kitchen in Carey, North Carolina, which is a suburb of Raleigh, and I'm joined by two teachers, Kim and Lisa. Thank you so much for joining me today. Kim, can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about whatever you want us to know about?

Kim: Sure. I'm Kim, I teach at a local high school. This is my 18th year of teaching, so I've been teaching as long as my students have been alive. I teach civics and economics. Excellent. And I also am the mom of two students who are seven and ten.

Rachel: Ah, okay, great. And Lisa?

Lisa: Hi, my name is Lisa and I live here in Carey. I was born nearby, I live about a half hour from where I was born, and I am a former teacher. I taught middle school life skills, also known as home ec. I was a lateral entry teacher, it was not my first career. And then when I had children, I stopped teaching because my salary was less than the cost of daycare. And I've gone back to work in nonprofit work, and I substitute teach in this all the time, Grade K through 12, throughout the county when I have a chance.  

Rachel: So nonprofit work pays more than teaching?  

Lisa: Yes, absolutely. I work for an education focused nonprofit as a professional fundraiser and grant writer.

Rachel: That's amazing. What's the hardest part about being a teacher lately?

Kim: I think the most challenging part about teaching is we just emerged from this period where people realize just how difficult teaching is. And yet we're still returning to the old bad habits of not listening to the folks on the ground when it comes to creating education policy. This sense that somehow other people know better what our schools and what our students need than teachers. So, it would've been nice if that appreciation for teachers with realizing how difficult the job was when students were not within our walls could have been translated into the respect for what it is we do with kids each day.

Rachel: When you walk into the classroom every day, do you feel an animosity from the students? Or more importantly, from the parents? Is that, you know, something that you think is palpable or something that you feel? 

Kim: No, not at all. And that's part of the problem, is there's this false narrative that people are so upset with our public schools. No, they're not. Our kids are doing great. Parents are supportive. It's just, unfortunately, we have the loud few who are giving a false impression and because they are so sensational, they get more attention than they deserve.

Lisa: I would absolutely agree with that. I've substituted in almost 30 different schools over a hundred days in the last two years, and I tell people “what you hear is happening in the schools is not what's happening.” I've been in so many that I've seen it. And it's just that people are pushing this false narrative of what they think is happening. So I invite them to substitute. I say, “go get certified with the school and become a substitute if you really think it's happening. You know, you're invited to come do that.”

Rachel: That’s great. Do you think it's a situation where it's like, I mean, “our schools are fine, but did you hear what's happening over there?” Do you think that's kind of what's going on? 

Kim: I think that's how they're winning that false narrative. Is by convincing people it's happening somewhere else. And when people are saying, “well, it's not happening in my backyard. It's not happening in my backyard.” Then why do people keep believing that it is happening, and so pervasive? When no one seems to be owning that these things are apparently happening somewhere. 

Rachel: Yeah, so I wanna, I've heard a lot about the Leandro case. We need to kind of unpack this a little bit, but in the most simple terms, cause I tried to read a little bit about this online, it's very complex, there’s a lot of information out there about it, and I suspect a fair bit of misinformation and disinformation. So, Kim, would you like to start and then Lisa, I'd like to hear what you think about it as well.

Kim: Yeah, so Leandro in a nutshell is the North Carolina constitution says that students are entitled to a public education. The courts have interpreted that not only are they entitled to that education, but it should be a sound basic education. And in 1997, the North Carolina State Courts ruled saying that the state is not providing that constitutionally obligated education, and in large part is because they're not offering enough resources to be able to fulfill that commitment. So there was a follow up case in 2004 and they ruled that they're still not doing it. And then even they said, “Well come up with a plan.” So a plan was made to implement it, where the money can go, how it can be spent, and now the legislature is basically saying, “well, the courts can't tell us how to spend money.” 

So it's become this showdown between separation of powers, and something as controversial as “shouldn't we be funding our schools enough for students to be successful?” has become this polarized issue. 

Rachel: But why are we having a debate about whether or not the state of North Carolina should be offering a sound education to every student? 

Lisa: One of the foundations of the Leandro case is that the rural counties in North Carolina are not receiving adequate funding to receive a sound basic education. And what is happening is that the local funding is being made up by the tax base. And the non-rural counties in North Carolina have a much better tax base and ability to tax the residents and ability to increase the funding for the schools, but the rural counties really don't. If you look at Wayne County, which is the capital, Raleigh, we’re the 16th largest school district in the country, and we are making up the differences in teacher salaries by offering a local supplement. That, I think, is around 18% of a salary right now. But if you go one county over, that salary supplement might only be around 8% in a rural county. So, which county's gonna get more applicants for teachers and resources and things like that? 

The Leandro case is trying to resolve that by saying every county in North Carolina, not just the urban or the rural ones, deserve the same resources and quality of education should not be determined by your zip code. 

Rachel: That seems reasonable, I have to say. How does your experience in the classroom translate into your political involvement? 

Lisa: I ran for office this past spring, for county commissioner here in Wake County, and I found when I was running for office and talking to people, the minute they heard that you're a former teacher, they trusted you. People would tell me at early voting, “oh, I'm voting for you. You're a teacher.” “Oh, I saw that you're a teacher on your website.” I heard that over and over again. I think we need more educators involved in politics, especially at the local level, because in order to get better up ballot candidates, we need better down ballot candidates. Because a lot of them start at places like the school board and town council. And local elections have such a big impact on our daily lives that people don't realize. I also just do a whole lot of get out the vote, you know, working with my political party to ensure that people are educated voters and know the issues. 

Kim: Yeah. I think the way that it affects us is when we think about trying to get people to understand issues. We think about their self-interest, and we don't just associate things with our own self-interest. Our self-interest becomes our student interest. That becomes something that we care about as well. So when people are talking about issues that may not directly affect us, we can see how it might directly affect another student and their family. And that association really brings a lot more investment into issues that maybe, if I wasn't a teacher, wouldn't have been on my radar. 

Rachel: Mm-hmm. This is a question that I always like to ask people in various professions. When you go to work and you're talking to your colleagues, you know, how do you discuss politics with them? Because I can imagine, I mean, North Carolina is a purple state and there are people, you know, of different persuasions, but they're having the same experiences you are. How do you engage with them politically?

Lisa: I work part-time at a nonprofit when I'm not subbing. And I'm very fortunate that all my coworkers have views aligned with mine and we talk shop all day long. I love going to the office because of that. When I'm substituting, you can kind of get a vibe on people, but I find that most people in education are aware of the issues and are passionate about it. And if you wanna talk with them, they're definitely willing. 

Kim: Public education has been made out to be this very partisan thing, but it's actually not. There are lots of people who support public education. It's not actually along party lines, even though it might seem that way among the elected officials. Among the average person, people support public schools. And certainly if you're in a school, there might be other issues where we see things differently, but we're all literally in the same boat all day in these schools. And really what we focus on is how to, how to best advocate and speak up for our students.

Lisa: I think today though, teachers are very aware that there are situations where their job could be in jeopardy if they cross a line or say the wrong thing in regards to politics. And so the conversations stay out of the classroom. I have not had any encounters where it has been brought into the classroom with the children present. And our district recently is evaluating the policy about what teachers can and cannot do in regards to political activity on school grounds.

Rachel: When we were driving to this house, we saw lots of campaign signs that appeared to all be school board signs, which is unique because you have some other elections that are coming up. Is that typical? 

Lisa: No. One of the candidates with the more extreme viewpoints put out hundreds of signs on the first day, the first day you could put out signs. And her opponent is a wonderful young man who is a former teacher and I think people aren't sure what to think of all these signs, cause this is definitely the most school board signs I've seen around here. And I'm from this area. 

Rachel: Do you find that people, one, know who's running for school board, and if they do, that they know their policies? Are the school board members making this known or are they relying literally on hundreds of signs to just make their name known and then they'll be voted for? Because I find school board races in general to be kind of difficult to find out what the people are for, you know, to find their policies.

 Kim: Yeah, and I think that's where you see the sign wars with school board races because they're relying on the name recognition. So that way when someone's out there filling out their ballot, they may not vote down ballot. And maybe they might have an edge of, “Well, I recognize this name.” And we know that's not how we want people to vote, but we know that's the decision that they make. But with a lot of shenanigans going down at school board meetings, folks have taken more of an interest. It's on people's radar more, of really understanding what a school board does and why it's important. 

Lisa: I think also, in a lot of areas, school board does not have party affiliation next to it on the ballot. So it's very important to show up having done your research. In our case in Wayne County, the ballot is gonna be two-sided and a lot of people don't realize the whole other side, if you flip it over, is just as important as the big races on the front. 

Rachel: That's why it's really important, if you’re in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania or North Carolina, to use the Red Wine and Blue tool of being able to look at your ballot and see your ballot in your area and know exactly what’s on it, so you're not missing anything and knowing the candidates. Who they are, what they stand for.

So I know when I was in Ohio, we talked a lot about educating voters on some of the really ridiculous, I would say, proposed legislation. A lot of it having to do with children, with LGBTQ issues for students, and, you know, Don't Say Gay type things, trans kids. I mean, those are two things that we fought all over the country.

But what I noticed in Ohio is most of the women who are coming to our Troublemaker Trainings, a lot of them hadn't heard of it. I wouldn't say most, but many hadn't heard of this proposed legislation before. Is that the case in North Carolina? 

Kim: North Carolina has tried to go about it a little more roundabout. So they're not quite as explicit. So for example, in the bill that was offered, it was really vague of, you know, if students had conversations with a teacher or a school counselor, it’s basically taking away that level of confidentiality. That parents had a right to know what their kid was saying. And because it was so vague, that would certainly have severe ripple effects in the classroom. Of really interfering with that relationship. Not that that happens all that often. If it comes to a point where a student's talking to their teacher, it's because they don't have very many trusted adults. So why would we take away some of those trusted adults from them? 

Rachel: Yeah, I agree. What do you think, Lisa? 

Lisa: I have a personal story with the legislation that was trying to be passed in North Carolina. One day I was substituting and it was a class I had substituted in quite a bit. I knew the teacher. And the law that was trying to be passed in North Carolina was covering all healthcare. If a student talked to us about something, we had to notify the parents. It's the short version of it. And this young lady, I think she was about 16, 17, had had an abortion the week before. And the teacher knew me well enough to tell me she can leave the classroom at any point during the class, she's bleeding. And under the law that was trying to be passed, I would've had to have notified her parents who did not know about this situation. I'm a substitute. I don't have a relationship with the family. I don't have a relationship with the girl. I should not be required to notify the parents of that situation as this way of them trying to pass this discriminatory law.

Rachel: That's a lot. That's a lot to put on teachers. We want you to teach our kids. You also need to protect our children, maybe with a gun, and then if they blow their nose or they need to take a Tylenol, you have to notify the parents. 

Lisa: One of the candidate’s signs that you were referencing earlier said in a forum a few weeks ago that we should just put guns in the bottom drawers of the teacher's desks and the kids won't know. It's clear that this individual had not spent a lot of time in the schools because as a substitute, I can say that none of the doors lock. Yes. 

Kim: I don't have any drawers!

Lisa: Yeah. So there definitely should not be a gun in the unlocked drawer.

Rachel: Well, obviously abortion is a huge topic this year. Everywhere I go, we're talking about it a lot. Do you think working with young people has given you a different perspective on reproductive rights? 

Kim: I think, again, being a teacher, we associate these issues not just with our own immediate families or ourselves but with our students as well. When I was a middle school teacher, I had a student where we were told she was pregnant, and then several weeks later she wasn't. No one asked any questions, but people aren't thinking about it through the lens of “should that 12-year-old have to go through with a pregnancy?” That's what we think about. We think about these actual people. Not these fictional people that we just wanna vilify for a culture war issue.

Lisa: When I was a teacher– Kim mentioned she had pregnant students– I had two pregnant seventh graders when I was a teacher, and both of them opted to have the baby. And the fathers were much older men.  

Rachel: And just to be clear, seventh grade is 12, turning 13.

Lisa: Yeah. One was 13, one was 12. They, and they were both pregnant in my class. So having the ability to make that choice, if you want to have that choice, is such an important foundation of your rights as a woman. And so many of our other rights are under attack in addition to that one, I think it's hard to pick one, just one big issue for this election cycle. 

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. So is there anything else that's on your mind as we head into the midterms or anything else that you would like to tell us about North Carolina?

Lisa: I wanna make sure people understand that there's a cost of running for office, and if you have the resources, seek out a candidate that supports your values and throw even a small amount of money their way. We need to diversify who runs for these offices. And it's, it's hard to financially do it without the support of the public if you're a candidate that does not have the self-funded resources. So it's important to kind of support organizations and people who are willing to take the leap and, you know, represent us and represent our values. 

Kim: Yeah. And also related to, to resources, you know, public education is again on the ballot in North Carolina, where we're at a crossroads. Either by 2030, we're still going to have a… well, I mean, it's not as well supported as it should be, thus Leandro, but either we're going to still invest in public schools as the core way in which our students receive education, or we're gonna privatize everything. And even if people don't necessarily have the financial resources as some of the other groups coming in trying to stake their claim, we need folks to show up with their votes and show that support so we can keep pro-public education supporters in office. 

Lisa: Voting doesn't cost anything, and anyone who is eligible can do it. Your vote this November will show that you support public education and value our children.

Rachel: I love it. I wore my sweater today that says Fight Like A Mother, but I have another one that says Just Show Up. And they're both, I think, great messages. But sometimes it is about just showing up and being part of it and letting your voice be heard. So thank you so much Kim and Lisa for joining me today and telling us about what's going on in your area of North Carolina. And thank you for your work as educators and for being willing to run for office, Lisa, and just putting yourselves out there. It's really important. So thank you. 

Lisa: Thank you very much for having us.