The Suburban Women Problem - Season 3, Episode 15

Amanda Weinstein: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Amanda Weinstein. 

Jasmine Clark: I'm Jasmine Clark. 

Rachel Vindman: I'm Rachel Vindman. 

Amanda: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem.

So I was out for last week's episode, Casey found out what the episode was about and was very disappointed I had to miss it. But I loved listening to last week's episode and how you all talked about some little changes we can all make to help the environment. And little changes are important because there are so many issues out there that need our time and energy.

But sometimes something really hits home and we decide we need to make a big change. So this week we're talking about pivots. Pivoting to a new career, pivoting to getting more involved in politics or just being inspired to make any big change in our lives. Oh man. I have the words of Ross from Friends in my head right now. “Pivot!” 

I'll get to share my interview with Adeline Koh, a woman who left her career as a professor to start a beauty company. Jasmine, I think we could have another career if we wanted one. Well, you already do have another career. 

Jasmine: Well yeah, but you know, I like beauty stuff. I can't wait to hear about this.

Amanda: So, Adeline uses her company and her platform to support political causes she believes in, including Red Wine and Blue. And speaking of Red Wine and Blue, we'll also get to chat with Jill Jonassen, an Ohio mom who left her career in data marketing to work in politics with Red Wine and Blue. 

But before we get to all of that, we have to talk about the news. There is so much going on right now. As always. 

Jasmine: It's so weird cuz it's like we record every week and it shouldn't be this much stuff that happens between like when we record and the next time we record. How is it this much happening all at once? 

Amanda: It's a lot. I know. So last week you guys talked about Ralph Yarl, which is so tragic that anyone, and especially people of color, could make a simple mistake and have such dire consequences for them. But since then, I've seen a bunch of posts about a woman who was shot and killed for accidentally pulling into the wrong driveway. Another man who was shot and killed when he accidentally got in a similar looking car at the gas station. Like these have been happening all along. We're just hearing about them more now. 

Rachel: Again, I just say, when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. There is absolutely no reason that you should feel so threatened if someone pulls into your driveway that you have to shoot at them.  

Amanda: And just how scared are you? Like, we know you're scared, but like, come on.

Jasmine: I have pulled into the wrong driveway, or I've passed the house I was supposed to go to. 

Amanda: Same! 

Jasmine: And pulled into the next driveway to kind of back up. But now we're getting to that moment in our society where this is gonna start affecting business. Our obsession with guns is going to start affecting businesses in a way that I'm not sure the business community really understands. I will also say as a person who is in politics, who has to run a campaign next year, I'm really thinking about how do I effectively run a campaign without putting my canvassers in danger?

Amanda: So it already is affecting businesses. So my research shows and other research shows too, that when you have places with higher violent crime, businesses will pay to avoid your city, to avoid your state. And households will too. We already know that this has been happening and if you, and there's a lot of recent reports out there that violent crime is highest in red states. Where the culture of gun obsession mixes with having guns and shooting at anyone for any reason. And suddenly you have higher violent crime rates there. And I guarantee you the research shows their economy is already being affected by it. 

Rachel: It's not, it's not surprising. I mean, I think we, this weekend I saw an interview with Ralph Yarl…the person who shot him was an 85 year old man and his grandson did an interview with former CNN reporter, journalist, Don Lemon. By the way, it's brilliant. You should, you should look it up because this young man just did an excellent job. I think any of us who… actually, this is not me, but I know that people, you know, have grandparents or parents who are avid consumers of Fox News. Also minus a journalist these days. And what he described was so evergreen, but also frightening. The way he talked about, like Fox News was on in his living room all day, every day. A steady diet of just rage porn, of all the things that are wrong. Probably lots of “these people” type situations. And then when a young man, a 16 year old Black man came to his door, he was primed and he had, you know, again, when you have a hammer, everything was like a nail. So he was there and he had this target and I mean, there you go. We see the consequences of it. 

And, and so I, I think we cannot underestimate what it's like to put that trash in your head every single day. And what that does, I mean, as parents, we, I mean, I am like, “Okay, enough with the YouTube videos or whatever it is you're watching, do something else.” But we don't say that to other people in our lives.

Amanda: Right. But it's that coupled with lax gun laws, like so you have this terrible mix where there's a lot of fault to go around. We can blame Fox News, we can blame the legislators for these lax gun laws, there is plenty of fault to go around. 

But we should also be looking to the organizations who are working to fix this situation. And one of them is Moms Demand Action, right? Where they're looking to pass common sense gun laws that most people support. But I think it's really interesting, and Rachel, I know you brought this up to us, that Moms Demand Action has never been profiled on CBS Sunday morning ever. With their millions of members and all of the work they have done to really change and fix this problem, a big problem in society. 

Jasmine: And they're effective! Like in some states, they're getting gun laws passed that make sense. And again, gun laws that are not partisan. These are bipartisan. Like these are things that everyone agrees on. We should all in a civilized society have at least some rules. And so, you know, they are so effective. And it's interesting to me that the people who are actually doing the things that most people want are the ones that don't get the spotlight and the profiles.

But then you've got these fringe groups that are purporting to be the voice of quote moms. Meanwhile, they're really just you know, millionaire-backed far right extreme groups like that are funding these groups of people to speak as if they're speaking for everyone when they're really only speaking for a small yet vocal minority. I can tell you right now, Moms for Liberty does not and has not ever spoken for me. And in fact, everything they say is pretty antithetical to what I believe as a parent and what I believe as a contributing member to my society. So I really hate when they get the spotlight and people like Shannon Watts and Moms Demand, they're, they're not the ones that are getting the platform that they deserve, despite the fact that they're doing what we want.

Amanda: Mm-hmm. We are not being represented. We're not being represented by the media, we're not being represented by our politicians, and we're gonna get terrible outcomes when we don't have fair representation across both. 

Rachel: I don't mean to just always, you know, we, we just spent a lot of time talking about the media and their role in all of these things, but the reality is, and I think we all need to remember this all the time. Media is a business. And what they're trying to do is keep you watching it, just like YouTube wants to keep my daughter watching YouTube. The longer she's on there, the more ads they can show her and the more money they can make. And it's the very same with this, I mean, if they think they can get a bigger piece of the pie by spotlighting, you know, other views. The problem is these are real minority views and I mean, I think it's encouraging that when Marjorie Taylor Green was on 60 Minutes, it was the second worst by far ratings of the season. But you know, with Tucker Carlson being fired at Fox, their stock price–

Amanda: Wait! You need a dramatic pause there, Rachel.

Rachel: I know. Yeah, we do. Yes, yes. 

Amanda: Tucker Carlson is gone! 

Rachel: Yes! But their stock price is crashing. And you know, I mean, but, but the thing is, that's why people watch. They don't care if it's true. They want to hear what they want to hear. They want someone to say what they're thinking. They don't want it to be factual because they want those things to be true.

Amanda: Oh yeah, I know. So Moms for Liberty, they have on their shirts, their “protests in a box,” as you like to say, Rachel, right? They talk about how they don't wanna co-parent with schools, but when they do book bans, what they're really trying to do is co-parent with me, right? And co-parent with the majority of parents. I want my kids to have access to those books. And if you don't want your kid to read it, fine, but you don't get to co-parent with me and decide whether or not my kid gets to read it. And that is where the majority of parents lie, because I was at the school board meetings and I saw the less than handful of the Moms for Liberty members there. And I saw an entire room filled with people who were against Moms for Liberty in a historically more conservative suburb. 

So this is just completely unrepresented, but I think you're right, Rachel. I really like what you said - it's a business model. So they are betting on a very specific business model that makes them money. They are betting that they can, one, get people who like Moms for Liberty to watch, and two, that they will get people who like to see fringe women that are hysterical and emotional and irrational. And they'll get people on both sides of the aisle to watch. Because our general attitudes are so pervasive that we don't even realize that companies try to make money off of it. And I'm really sick of this narrative, and I hope it ends up being a bad business decision, like Tucker's business model where, you know, he's fired. So I don't think it's a very good business decision he made to, you know, blatantly lie.

Jasmine: Well, I mean, he cost them like seven hundred and something million.

Rachel: I can't conceive of that much money. It's hard for me. I'm like, I don't, I don't have any…

Amanda: What could we do with that?

Jasmine: I know! Honestly, firing him doesn't even begin to make up for the amount of money he costs them. So, you know, that's just a tiny drop in the bucket, but, I agree. I would say not only are they banking on people being supporters of Moms for Liberty or wanting to watch this, you know, fringe for the entertainment factor. I think they also are trying to count on people being angry and wanting to watch so they can really be angry.

Amanda: And I think it plays for the Republicans. I think it helps them, even anger on our side. I think that helps the Republicans. So our guest today or later on, Adeline, mentions talking about joy. Joy is political action. It is a political statement to be joyful and it's sometimes hard for us to think about all of the great stuff happening, but there is some great stuff happening that believe it or not.

After Judge Kasmaryk’s mifepristone ruling, we still have access to mifepristone, thanks to the Supreme Court! Or at least for now. To be continued.

Jasmine: I'm just glad that logic prevailed at least temporarily. I was not–

Amanda: Were you shocked?

Jasmine: Yeah, I was gonna say I was not expecting it. I really wasn't.

Amanda: Me neither.

Jasmine: I didn't have a lot of hope for our Supreme Court to do the right thing. And so the fact that we are here at least, like I said, temporarily, I am temporarily optimistic that everyone has not completely lost their mind.  

Amanda: Yeah. But yeah, feelings should not dictate whether or not something is safe. It sets a precedent that my feelings will determine what's safe, not data, and that is a very dangerous precedent.

And you can look at other, you know, feelings legislators have about safety in you have places like Iowa who determine, you know what? We think it's safe for 14 year olds to work six hour night shifts, and for 15 year olds to work in plants on assembly lines, moving items up to 50 pounds, right? The data actually completely says that this is not safe. Younger kids are more likely to have accidents and plants like this. We should not be basing legal decisions or policy decisions based on someone's random feeling of what they think is safe. And you know those Iowa Senators, none of their kids will be doing the night shift! 

Rachel: Absolutely not. Hell no. I mean, but as the mom of a 12 year old, unless there’s something really incredible that's gonna happen in the next 22 to 23 months, no one should let my child around heavy machinery in the middle of the night. 

Jasmine: Exactly. Oh, exactly. I'm like, come on moms, come on dads, let's just think this through. Like you know your kid.

Amanda: Yeah this was not something any mom came up with. We have seen our kids in action. They should not be dealing with heavy machinery. 

Rachel: Oh, it's okay. She'll be fired for having her cell phone there anyway.

Jasmine: I mean, not just that, do you want the product that has been assembled by like small children? Like, I don't understand. 

Rachel: Don't we not want that? Don't we fight against China because we don't want anything that was made with forced child labor? And, and yet here we are. I mean, you know, up is down and down is up. 

And I, to your point, Jasmine, you're like, I can't believe all the stuff that's happened in a week. But sometimes you have to just take a minute, take a breath, focus on “this is what I can do and these are the things that I am going to do,” and the battle remains the same. We just have to keep talking, keep educating people, keep raising the awareness of this stuff. But fundamentally it's about registering people to vote. And Lizzo had a concert, I'm gonna see Lizzo in a couple weeks, Lizzo had a concert and she was registering people to vote in Tennessee. And then she had like drag queens out there, which is amazing. 

Amanda: It was amazing because Tennessee had the drag ban, but also…. like this, this works, right? All of this stuff works. We keep fighting and fighting in little ways and small ways, and we see things like even in Missouri. 

Jasmine: Yes! That's what I was about to say.

Amanda: They reversed course. We complained and they said, “well, maybe we will fund our libraries” because groups like Moms for Liberty, which we started off talking about, right, they said, “well, we're gonna ban books in schools, but you'll be able to go to the library to get them.” And then they turned around and said, “Oh, just kidding. We're gonna defund the library.” Or try and take over your library, which we saw them try to do in Hudson, unsuccessfully. But this works, right? Pushing back on this and showing what most parents want, not the fringe. It works. And Missouri got their library funding back. 

So I think this is a great time to talk to our Troublemaker Jill, because every Monday she hosts Twitter live with Jojo from Jerz where they break down what's happening and why it matters. But she hasn't always worked in politics. First, she had to make a big leap into the unknown. Jill, welcome to the Suburban Women Problem. 

Jill Jonassen: Hi. Thanks for having me. 

Amanda: So you do videos and live streams for Red Wine and Blue, but working in politics is actually pretty new for you. 

Jill: Yeah. Working in politics is definitely not anything I ever thought I would get into, and I would say that, as is true for a lot of women, 2016 was a huge eye-opener for me. I remember the night before I went to bed just not really even thinking about it. And then we heard fireworks go off in our neighborhood and my husband was looking at his phone and he was like, “Oh my God, Trump won. I think that's what the fireworks were.” And it just changed everything. Like I wore black to the bus stop the next day because I felt like I was in mourning and grief, and then also like, how did I not see this happening? What did I miss? This is crazy. So that was definitely some sort of pivot for me, but then it took years after that before I actually started doing something about it.

Jasmine: I, I love that. And the reason why I love that is because I definitely did not ever see myself running for office. Actually, that was a part of my campaign speech. I was like, “if you would've asked me, even like three years ago, if I ever would run for office, the answer would've been like, what are you even talking about? Like, where is this coming from?” But I do think that 2016 was pivotal for me as well as far as feeling like I needed to do something. That being said, I'm sure it wasn't like this thing where you were just like, “oh, I'm just gonna like quit my job and camp out at school board meetings all of a sudden, all in one day.” So just curious, like what were your first steps or what was like the first step you took to saying, I think I'm gonna like do this? Like specifically like what did you do?

Jill: I think 2016 just opened my eyes. And at that time I was a full-time stay-at-home mom. And then the next year I, my youngest went to school, so I went back to work for the company I worked for previously, which was a data marketing company and I mean, it wasn't a dream job, but it was a great job. And so I noticed that in between meetings and different things, I'd be checking Twitter or the news and just be so interested and almost horrified at things that were happening. And then I would go to a meeting and then I was literally talking about like a program dashboard for a loyalty platform. And it was, for me, it was so hard to pivot from like, wanting to shake people, like, “do you know what's happening?” And then be like, “okay, so let's talk about that program dashboard.” So I found I was having a lot of trouble, like just internally, I just didn't know what to do. Like it was a big stress and struggle.

And then finally in 2020 I was like, “I gotta get a new job. I can't do this anymore.” And I thought philanthropy and like that kind of nonprofit was gonna be the way for me. And then I saw on LinkedIn this organization called School Board School, which is a local organization and they have a training program that you could apply for and you could learn how a school board works and how to be an education advocate and stuff like that. So for me, like having kids, always having a huge love for educators and respect, I thought maybe that's the way to go. That was before the craziness, like seriously in 2021, it wasn't even crazy yet. 

And then that fall of 2021, they were looking for people to write op-eds against the bills that were going in the State House, like banning C, what they called CRT, banning teaching accurate history and all of this stuff. And they said we'd love to have a voice from a suburban mom. Would you be interested? 

Amanda: What a novel approach. We'd actually love to hear what a woman thinks!

Jill: Yes. And you know, I had a different perspective than maybe some other people who are speaking up and I feel like for me, I was like, “finally somebody asked.” I was like, “Thank you for asking. Of course I have something to say.” And I was just like, do-do-do like within hours I was like, “Here you go.” And they're like, “What?” And I'm like, “I've been living with that Op-ed in me.”

Amanda: You're just waiting for someone to ask.

Jill: Yeah, I mean, it was just like a permission, like permission to use your voice. 

Rachel: Jill, I actually, I've done some Lives with you and I've done other things and I've talked to you before, but until I was prepping for this podcast, I didn't realize you had written this Op-ed, so I looked it up. It's excellent. And I felt like, even though I've talked to you before, I got to know you a little bit better and everything you said was like, “Yes. Yes.” I mean, I completely agreed with it and it was excellent. 

You know, the Twitter live events that you and Jo do on Mondays, I like to tune in myself. Can you tell us a little more about those events and maybe share one of your favorites? You don't have to say me. 

Amanda: Haha. 

Jill: Haha. Yeah, it's definitely a vulnerable thing to do for sure. I'm a person who is very empathetic and I'm a pretty soft spoken person, and for me to give my opinion, I don't normally do it unless I'm asked. So that's why when I was asked to write something, it was huge. It was like somebody was inviting me to share my voice.

Amanda: That's a good point because I do think there's a gender difference there, right? So we hear a lot of opinions that are put out there that nobody asks for by a whole bunch of men. But sometimes we need to ask more women what their opinions are. They have them. 

Jill: Yeah, exactly. And I, and I think like for a long time, I didn't realize that empathy was my strength and what kind of sets me apart. And I really feel like we need an empathetic voice when we're talking about these issues. So I just try to tap into my true self and just say how I really feel. And working with Jo is amazing because we are very different people, but we connect very well because we want the same things and we compliment each other. So Jo is a little funnier and just, we just kind of bounce back off of each other and it's really fun. 

Jasmine: So Jill, you've said that you're very inspired by a quote from Desmond Tutu. So the quote is, “there comes a point where we need to stop just pulling people out of the river. We need to go upstream and find out why they're falling in.” So I would just love to know more about how that quote has guided you and gotten you to where you are now. 

Jill: Yeah. So when I talked about 2016, I guess an action that I took was volunteering with local nonprofits, which are great and I love the work that different organizations do, like clothing people, helping people find housing, feeding people, you know, different things like that. And I still enjoy doing that, but I did that for years and I'm a person who's very curious. I like to kind of dig a little deeper and after a while you're like, “Well, why in the richest country on this planet are there so many people who can't afford housing? Why are there people who are actually going hungry? Like, I don't understand it. Like what is happening? 

Rachel: Yes. That's a great question. 

Jill: I mean, like those organizations are meeting the basic needs that need to be met. But if we dig a little deeper, if we go up the river, who's pushing those people into the river? And so I think that's kind of where my shift went into politics because I'm like, oh, there's a lot of decisions being made that people are not paying attention to because it's so complicated and we have our lives. Like I'm trying to get my kids to school every day and to volleyball practice and to whatever. But the more we pay attention, the more people who really care and want what's best can start running for those positions, or at least talking to their friends about it. 

So that really opened my eyes and I think public education was where I started, with that School Board School that I did. And then I, I, I love podcasts and I can't remember how I learned about this podcast, but I was listening to this podcast for a while and I was like, “This is so great. Like this is like talking to women where they are. It's really relatable.” And then that's when I was like, looking up more about it and found out Red Wine and Blue was hiring and that's what brought me to Red Wine and Blue.

Rachel: I love that!

Amanda: We're so glad. That is a great quote and I love the story, of course, about the podcast, which is awesome. So before you leave, where can listeners find out about these great lives that you do? 

Jill: Yeah, on our website, redwine.blue, which I always say, there's a section called Conversations, and then you can go there and it'll link you. Most of our conversations we save on YouTube or you can go to Twitter, we save them all on Twitter and Instagram also.

Amanda: That's awesome. So we will put the links to those in the show notes for everyone. Jill, thank you for joining us. 

Jill: Thank you. 

Amanda: So I think that quote from Desmond Tutu is definitely my new favorite quote.

Rachel: It, no, it's, it's so relevant. I mean, it's just, for me, it's very relevant to this moment that I've kind of awoken to, I guess, of like, “we should not have these issues in our country.” And if we say for who we say we are, that's the fix that we need. 

It's been talked about in the news where I live in Broward County, Florida. There was some flood, there was some flooding a couple weeks ago. And of course our governor did not come to a blue county to talk about, you know, to, to offer his support or anything because he is too busy going to Japan and on a world tour. But you see that this is not about flooding even. It's a thousand year flood, but you see the people… they were renters who weren't expecting to have to move so they don't have the money. And as we get into this place of climate change, and it's, it's disproportionately impacting lower income people more, if I care, I care about them, not just solar panels on my house. I care about them having a better quality of life as well.

Jasmine: Yeah. When we talk about homelessness, and I, I said this on the floor of the House in Georgia, when we talk about homelessness, I think there's this assumption that all homeless people are violent drug addicts, and I, I'm not kidding. Like that is literally what they think.

Amanda: They jumped in the river because there's something wrong with them. They jumped in the river. Not that they had no more bank to stand on. Yes. 

But it's also cheaper. Like, so if you look at preventative medicine, right? There's a reason why there's a push toward preventive medicine. There's a reason why the VA is big on preventative medicine because it ends up being cheaper. The same is true with just about anything I've ever looked into, that the preventative measures are actually cheaper to prevent people from falling in the river than to wait until they're already down the river. You already know, I've said it a billion times, stingy pays twice. 

Jasmine: Exactly. Right.

Amanda: It's true with everything. I also loved how she talked about how with the Op-ed, like she had to be asked to give her opinion, but when she was asked, she had a lot of opinions. And she had something to say. I love that. And I totally connected with that. Cause I think I tend to be a little bit of a “sit back and observe” kind of researcher and scientist. And I don't initially voice my opinion, believe it or not. But I've had to, I've been asked many times in my life to like, you know, stand up and speak, even by, you know, my husband's campaign team. They said, “okay, you're gonna have to get on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook, and you're gonna have to start speaking more.” And I was like, “Oh, but what am I gonna say?” Like, “I don't know. Just get on there and say stuff.” So I had to be asked by my husband's campaign team, but then I also got a call from Katie Paris at Red Wine and Blue saying, “Hey, I think you should think about a podcast.” And I was like, “I dunno that I have anything to say.” And she was like, “No, I think you do.”

Jasmine: Same! Same.

Rachel: I love it. I'm glad you said yes. Both of you.

Jasmine: I know! And then can y'all believe like we're already almost at a hundred episodes? So just wanna just go ahead and throw that out there. Like almost a hundred episodes ago, I didn't even know I was a podcaster and now I'm about to be like a centenarian podcaster!

Amanda: Well, I am so glad that we were all asked to be on this podcast together and I've had so much fun and I can't wait till the hundredth episode. Alright. But now we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back we'll have my interview with Adeline Koh.

BREAK

Amanda: Our guest today is a former English and gender studies professor. While on sabbatical, she found herself frustrated with the beauty products on the market and decided to start her own company called Sabbatical Beauty. She's also used her company and her platform to support progressive organizations, including Red Wine and Blue.. Adeline Koh, welcome to the Suburban Women Problem. 

Adeline Koh: Hi. Thank you so much, Amanda. Great to be here. 

Amanda: That was quite a pivot, to go from academia to starting a beauty company. I'd love to hear more about what inspired you to start sabbatical Beauty.

Adeline: Sure. So the story all starts from my skin and not knowing what to do with my skin. So I arrived from Singapore at the age of 21 at the University of Michigan in the middle of winter. It was January. Singapore's tropical and so my skin, my teenage oily skin, did not know what to do. It completely freaked out and I was very poor because I was a grad student. I had no money to do anything, so I kind of suffered with really painful, dry, itchy, bad skin for a long time. And then I graduated and then I got my job as a professor and I was like, “oh, now I have health insurance so I can maybe go see a dermatologist and fix these skin problems.” I went to a dermatologist that didn't help me at all. She told me that all moisturizers are a scam.  

Amanda: What?

Adeline: Right? So I kind of plodded along until I found Korean beauty around 2015, and that made a lot of sense to me because a lot of the herbs that are used in Korean beauty products, like ginseng for example, would be the kind of herbs that would, my mom and my grandma would make soups for me. Every Asian child usually has a mother, a grandmother, making all these herbal soups for them to boost their health and help them do well in exams. So I was like, if ginseng really works for me really well on the inside, it probably will be really good on my skin. 

So I was like, okay, so I wanna try this. So I went on sabbatical, on academic sabbatical, and I was supposed to be writing my book and instead I was, I started doing a lot of research into cosmetic chemistry and I started making my own skincare products in my kitchen where I put ginseng at the top of the ingredient list. My skin got a lot better. And then my other academic friends were like “make some stuff for us!” So I made stuff for all these like women professors as well who were really into it. 

How sabbatical beauty kind of started and blew up was when I was at the Modern Language Association annual meeting, which is like the big conference in my field. At that time, somebody, one of our acquaintances published an article called the 10 Step Korean Skincare Routine as a Radical Act of Feminism. And it was featuring both my company and what I was doing, along with all my female friends who were all using my products or getting into Korean skincare products. And that kind of like, just blew us, blew me up and I was like, “maybe I can do this full-time,” because I wasn't happy being a professor. And so that was in 2016 and so that was seven years ago and I quit the next year to do this full time and since then I've been doing this full time.

Amanda: Wow. Well, I love the name. I have had a sabbatical recently and I highly recommend, sabbaticals are super great. So I love the name of the company and I have to ask, was your department really surprised when you quit and did this full time?  

Adeline: Yes. They were shocked. So most people when they're on sabbatical, they either have a baby or they find another academic job. Most of my friends had babies, so I was like, I didn't have a baby, I had a business. 

Amanda: So if any of our listeners are thinking about making a big change, whether it's switching careers or getting more involved in politics, but they're nervous to take the leap, what advice do you have for them? 

Adeline: I would say several things. I would say, first of all, to not base your decision on what other people are telling you, but to really, really sit with yourself and to really ask yourself what are you really wanting out of this? Like, is this something to fulfill something deep inside you or is this something to, to make other people happy? And then also see like, you know, if this had the best possible outcome, what could it look like? If it had the worst possible outcome, what could it look like? So that you can be prepared, or more prepared, because you never really know what's going to happen. 

I mean, at the end of the day, I knew that my heart was calling me to leave academia, which is why I, I trusted my heart. And I think in most of my life I've, I trusted my heart and intuition more than anything logical. So I would say follow your heart and also really sit with yourself about whether this decision is coming from you and something internal to you, or whether it is trying to fulfill somebody else because you're never going to make other people happy. You can only try to make yourself happy.

Amanda: I love that. And I know a lot of women are taught that we should be trying to make other people happy in our decisions and also often taught that we should maybe tolerate situations that we probably shouldn't tolerate and to accept, you know, we're kind of told to just accept it rather than to create a situation that's better, you know, for ourselves. 

Adeline: Exactly. So much of what you just said, like, you know, as, as women we're told to put others' needs on top of our own needs. Like when we do that, we are really giving away our own enfranchisement and our power, because we're like, why should we even care about ourselves if other people are more important? So maybe this sounds like just a simple domestic personal thing, but it's actually a very political thing because it starts from inside. The personal is political. 

Amanda: Mm, absolutely. So you've said that “the decision of whose faces, bodies, and skin color is considered beautiful is rooted in social and political inequalities. Breaking out of these conceptions and challenging them requires us to grapple with the historical and political context which created them.” So can you tell our listeners more about this idea of beauty being political? So you've already talked a little bit about it. 

Adeline: Yes. Like you mentioned earlier, I started out as a race and gender studies professor. Specifically my field was called Postcolonial Studies. And what that really is, is like how do you understand the impacts of colonialism and how European colonialism has still shaped the world that we live in today? Who do we see constantly represented as the most beautiful like in beauty ads and stuff like that?

And I mean, some really shocking things to me when I discovered them as a graduate student, like from the 19th century, for example, when Europeans started colonizing other parts of the world, some of the advertisements, for example, that I would see would be like for a British soap that would turn black skin white, you know, because the idea that black skin is supposed to be dirty and that the soap would actually like, you know, wash off black, black skin color and turn it white.

And this is actually mirrored in the lived experience of people that I know. My dissertation advisor, she's from Cameroon, and she grew up in Switzerland and she told me that when she was seven, the Swiss kids would bury her in the snow thinking that she would get out and become a white person. So it’s everywhere, and it's still like very, you know, this, what, what we're talking about essentially is the roots of white supremacy or cultural white supremacy, global white supremacy. 

I also see it continuously within the beauty industry today. A few years ago there was this very controversial Chinese advertisement for… it was a skincare brand, some kind of skincare brand. And the, the advertisement was a video of a Chinese woman putting a Black man in the laundry machine and him coming out as a Chinese man.

Amanda:  Wow. And that was a recent ad?

Adeline: This was like a couple years ago. This is pretty recent. So when you asked me the question, right, like the decision of whose faces, bodies, and skin color is, is considered beautiful, is rooted in social and political inequalities. I think all these examples are really good to show, like, why are we elevating fair skin, for example, in the historical context as being more beautiful? And so it's all, all of this is all, all comes from the political context, the historical context that we live in, and it's all deeply political, is what I've been trying to say. So before we get to beauty, let's think about why we think something is beautiful to begin with, because that comes from a political place. 

Amanda: Absolutely. And I think for people who don't stop to think about race, you also don't understand politics. You cannot even understand even the names of our parties and the history of that. If you don't understand race, you just can't understand politics either. Like they're also intertwined. And I think it's really interesting when you think about women, because a lot of this is being pushed heavily on women. Of what our skin should look like and what our skin color should look like. And I noticed even in a lot of your ads, you have women and you can tell what their skin looks like. Where a lot of beauty products I know that I see, they're clearly wearing a ton of makeup and I'm like, “okay, that wasn't the skin product. That was a makeup artist that did that.” But I can tell with your ads, like, you're like, “no, like let's look at your skin and you know, it's about your, you know, getting to your kind of best skin,” which I really liked in your ads. 

Adeline: Yeah. And also you, as you can probably tell from my ads, like somebody commented to me, an advertising agency commented to me that I don't use people who are the usual suspects. You know, it's not the usual 20 year old, blonde, skinny, 110 pound girl who, you know, looks like she–

Amanda: The jig is up! You can't make me look like a 20 year old model!

Adeline: Exactly. 

Amanda: Alright, so speaking of beauty is political, you've also used your platform in your company to directly support causes that you believe in. And you've had political skincare lines like Rice Against The Patriarchy cleansing milk after Judge Kavanaugh's confirmation. And now you've talked, you've mentioned already you're partnering with Red Wine and Blue on the beauty is political collection. So could you tell us a little bit about…. when you stepped into this, right, were you nervous at all talking about politics in business? So a lot of people are very nervous to be open about their politics when they're also in business, right? They're afraid that something is gonna happen, it's gonna ruin their business. So what was that like making this such a big part of your company's identity?

Adeline: I would say that I got a lot of criticism for it in the beginning. I got so many people telling me that I didn't know what I was doing, I was a terrible businesswoman, I would be out of business really soon because nobody wants to see politics when talking about beauty or skincare. They just want to have their beauty and skincare. So I got a lot of flack about it. 

That all changed in 2020. Because in 2020 with George Floyd, suddenly people were like, “Hey, companies, start having some kind of accountability. We wanna see where you are politically.” And so that changed in 2020 and then suddenly it was like cool to be woke, right? And when, when that happened, I was like, “Oh, okay. That's interesting cuz I've been doing it all along.” 

Amanda: So you came to the United States at the age of 21, as you mentioned, to Michigan. So I'm a little bit of an Ohio State fan, but it's all right. Although Michigan Ann Arbor's super cute. I will admit that. But after growing up in Singapore and studying in Australia… oh man, Australia's also very nice. You've lived in some amazing places. How have your experiences as an Asian American woman shaped your approach to beauty and politics? 

Adeline: This is a really interesting question because I would say that I only really actually realized that I was a person of color or an Asian person when I arrived in the United States. First of all, growing up in Asia, everybody's Asian. So it doesn't become this signifier, it doesn't become this community signifier or identity marker. Right. So I was Asian, everybody around me is Asian, big deal. When I was in Australia, the limited amount of time that I spent there, there also is a very sizable Asian population in Australia, and I mostly hung out with other Asian people. So there wasn't this big identity, like suddenly like I was a minority because there were so many other people who were like me in Australia.

But going to school in Michigan, going to school in Ann Arbor, suddenly I was like, people don't understand my accent. I had to change my accent for the first time, which was actually very insulting to me because Singapore is a former British colony. And everything in Singapore is in English, our official language is English. And I grew up with, you know, English as my first language. And the fact that I had to change my accent because everybody assumed that I was an Asian fresh off the boat who couldn't understand how to speak English was really annoying to me. But that was also the first time where I actually felt, oh, I am not in a privileged majority position, which I was growing up in Singapore. I was like, this is what it's like to be a minority. This is what it's like to actually be judged by, you know, how I look. That I'm not able to speak properly, speak articulately, think and act articulately because of how people presume who I was, because of what I looked like.

So I would say that the United States and my living in the United States was really what taught me that I was a person of color. It also taught me the importance of alliances of other people of color. 

Amanda: Ooh, that is interesting. So as you were talking, I was thinking about like the ads I get for skincare are mostly about “how do I cover up the skin I have” rather than trying to fix any issues I have with my skin. And as you were, you know, talking, I think it's interesting that a lot of our politics and when we think about race and the history of how we treat race in America compared to other countries is about how do we cover it up? Rather than fixing the issues that are there. 

Adeline: Yes. Yes. Which is a lot of the effect also that we are seeing in like all these movements to ban books. They’re all like, “Let's cover it up. Let's pretend that it didn't exist,” rather than, “Let's see the reality of who we are and where we are so that we can actually heal as a collective.”

Amanda: Exactly. Oh, that's powerful. All right. It's been so fun talking to you today, but before we let you go, we always ask our guests a few rapid fire questions. Adeline, are you ready? 

Adeline: Yes, I'm ready. 

Amanda: Alright. What's your favorite comfort food? 

Adeline: My favorite comfort food is this dish called fishball noodles that is from Singapore.

Amanda: Ooh. I feel like my kids would love this. Anything with noodles they're in. 

Adeline: So it's dry tossed noodles and it comes with these things called fish balls, but you can put other kinds of protein in it. And the magic is really the sauce. The sauce is a little bit of sambal, a little bit of vinegar, soy sauce. And a little bit of a fragrant oil. These noodles are my favorite comfort for me. 

Amanda: Oh man. We need to put a recipe for that and the show notes. Alright. What do you do to relax after a stressful day?  

Adeline: Skincare routine. A Sabbatical skincare routine in my bathtub. 

Amanda: Ooh, very nice. All right. What's your favorite thing to do in your home base of Philadelphia?

Adeline: I would say my favorite thing to do in Philly would be to walk along the River Trail. It's pretty close to where I live and it's right along the river and like there's so many people walking around and hanging out and there are lawns for people to just sit out on Sundays. And sometimes there are events like movie screenings or like pop-up outside bars, outdoor bars. So I think walking around this River Trail is one of my favorite things to do.  

Amanda: Oh, very nice. Man, they even have pop-up bars. Did you say that? 

Adeline: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pop-up beer gardens in the summer.

Amanda: That's awesome. Oh my gosh. I feel like that would also be great with kids cause we don't have enough beer gardens in the United States, like places where kids can run while adults can have a drink and talk with other adults. Not that talking with the kids all the time is not great, but sometimes we like to talk with adults! 

So what was your favorite book to teach when you were an English professor? 

Adeline: If I could use two books, because I would usually teach them back to back, it would be Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness, which is about colonialism in Africa. It's kind of a, a really good book to talk about the problems within European colonialism and the corruption within colonialism and kind of a drive to exploitation and capitalism. And the counterpart to Heart of Darkness is Chino Achebe's Things Fall Apart, which is about the impact of colonialism on African tribes and kind of the failure of traditional African culture in resisting European colonialism. 

So both books, when I was an English professor, I would always use those back to back to kind of talk about the history and import of colonialism and the difficulty in resisting colonialism and use that to talk about how colonialism is still with us today.

Amanda: Oh, those ones like important books. I'm adding them to my list. So what Sabbatical beauty product would be a great place to start if our listeners are interested but don't know much about skincare? 

Adeline: So that's a really good question. I would, if I could list two things. So the first thing I would say to check out is my Asian Powerhouse Serum, and I called it the Asian Powerhouse Serum because it basically is, do you remember how earlier on I was talking about all these herbal soups, my parents, my mom and my grandma would make for me? It's basically my grandmother's soup in a bottle. So it's like all the Asian herbs that signify love and healing, and also I have really powerful skin conditioning properties put into a serum. So that's the first thing that I would recommend if you just wanna get started. 

And the second way to get started, I would say, was to check out the Beauty is Political set, which is what we are collaborating with with Red Wine and Blue. And that consists of three things, the Collective Healing aloe cleanser because you know, as we spoke about before, our collective really needs some healing. And alo. And oats are the main ingredients in that cleanser to really bring down redness and inflammation and any irritation that you have from the day of, like working hard, fighting for justice.

Amanda: Oh yeah. I've got lots of irritation on my skin every day. 

Adeline: Exactly. So the set has the Collective Healing Aloe cleanser, and it also has the Radical Joy saffron serum, because right now, to be joyful is a radical act.

Amanda: Oh yes. Oh, I love that. 

Adeline: And it's a saffron serum that contains saffron stem cells and has turmeric extract and it has asafetida extract and mulberry and what that does is to get rid of dark spots and even your skin tone and give you a really nice glow up. And then the Solidarity Roots licorice mask, because we all need more solidarity and we all need to be more grounded in our communities and in our earth. And licorice root is one of those really earthy things, which is why we call it solidarity roots, licorice, mass, and all of these, this routine together, this 30 minute routine skin ritual. The Beauty is Political ritual will really give you a lot of difference very quickly, skin difference really quickly, and help you feel like you're taking care of yourself because you really need to these days, you know? With everything going on, abortion being banned, with books being banned…

Amanda: Exactly! That one was this line right there. That's the Roe v Wade line. It's like a permanent line right there, right now. Yeah. 

Adeline: You know what it's gonna be really good for the lines actually, is to check out the guashas on my site. They’re these little flat tools that you can use to like massage, to iron out lines. So like all those lines, right? If you get the tool and you really work on that line. First of all, it will help with the line, but it will also feel amazing because you don't realize how much stress you're holding in your face. You've probably gone for a massage and you feel really good when they work on your shoulders, but take that tool and work it on a face where you scrunch it up when you're really mad and you will feel it. You'll find that it's so relaxing and it also makes your skin look better.

Amanda: Oh, that makes sense. Alright, that is the end of our Rapid Fire questions. So where can our listeners find more about you and Sabbatical Beauty? 

Adeline: So check us out at sabbaticalbeauty.com. We sell all our products online. We also have a studio in South Philly where we hand make all of our products ourselves. So we're very small. Everything is gonna be either by me or one of my team members. And you can also find us on social media, at SabbaticalBeauty on Instagram and on TikTok. We post a lot more political content on TikTok, so your listeners might be interested in that.

Amanda: Ooh, alright, Adeline, thank you for joining me on the Suburban Women Problem.

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Jasmine: Welcome back everyone. So Amanda, I really loved your conversation with Adeline. My favorite part, I don't know if it's my favorite, but just about the connectedness of everything. So I loved how y'all talked about beauty being political and how who is viewed as beautiful is shaped by racism. 

Amanda: I definitely did not make the connection quite as strongly until I talked with her. And then, and even so like looking at her products and seeing the type of people who she uses in her advertising, she uses people that, to me, like they're normal looking people with normal looking skin. They're not models because the jig is up, I don't think I'm a model, I'm definitely not a 20 something model, right? I'm a normal woman and I want, you know, to have great skin. And so I really loved the inclusiveness of the ads and just like the whole… you can see the connection when you hear her talk about it, that it didn't quite, quite get there without talking to her. 

Jasmine: I will say this, I have very curly, you know, African Afro type hair, very curly Afro hair, and for a very long time, Black women did not wear their hair like this.

Amanda: And were not allowed to in certain circumstances.

Jasmine: Yeah. Literally you couldn't even get a job if you wore your hair like this. And so I remember when I made the decision to wear my hair this way I really did feel like I was standing on an island or I was just standing in a weird spotlight, not when I really wanted to be in. But just people being like, “oh, wow. Like that's bold of you to be willing to wear your hair this way.” 

But then I remember I started seeing more commercials with people, Black women with curly hair. So I really truly did start to connect that I'm not weird or I'm not like, I'm not doing anything “exotic.” Beauty is all around us and beauty is different and I, it's okay to embrace that beauty. Representation kind of mattered for me in that specific instance because before I really did feel kind of odd having my hair like this.

Amanda: You were a trailblazer. So it reminds me a little bit of, I don't if you saw Alicia Keys stopped wearing makeup and when she did, there were news stories. “Oh my gosh, this person's gonna stop wearing makeup. Can you believe it?” 

And I remember one day… so I get migraines and sometimes I just do weird things when I have a migraine. And one of the weird things I’ve done is I typically wear makeup every day, and I didn't put makeup on cause I just forgot, which I never do, and I only forgot cause I had a migraine. And I was already on my way to work and my work was far enough away where I couldn't go back. And I was like, “Well, let's just do this day.” And nobody noticed. Like nobody looked at me weird. Nobody… like I thought I would see their faces like, “Are you sick? Like, what's wrong?” Nobody noticed I didn't wear makeup. And I was like, “Oh. That's interesting.” But it made me feel a little bit better. I was like, “Oh, you don't even notice what I make wear makeup or not.”

Jasmine: Or like, even if you do notice, it's not like such a big deal that they're like, “Oh my God, your face.” 

Amanda: Yeah, that's true. It's my face. You know, people go without makeup all the time. They're called men. And a lot of people now.

Jasmine: I actually don’t wear makeup. I wear lip gloss, but I don't wear makeup cuz I just don't physically have time. 

Amanda: Oh, your skin does look very good! All right, so let's end on our Toast to Joy. Jasmine, what is your Toast to Joy? 

Jasmine: So, my Toast to Joy this week was to having necessary moments with people that I don't necessarily think I would've had it with if I had not been in this particular setting. So I took part in a leadership weekend this weekend. And we went to Savannah, Georgia. And if people know the history of Savannah, Georgia, slavery and racism and Jim Crow and all those things are like, it is a part of the fabric of the history of that place. From the way they name their squares to like just so many things.

And so imagine being in a room with people who are anywhere from like the big city CEO to like the rural farmer who probably has never had to speak about this ever to anyone in their community. But we were all in there together and I loved it. And so I'm so glad I got that opportunity. I love when I have these leadership weekends, I think this is like the second time I've had one of these recently that I've talked about in my Toast to Joy. But all of them are just so valuable to me. And so that is my toast. My toast is to having uncomfortable conversations, but necessary conversations. 

All right. So Rachel, what's your Toast to Joy this week? 

Rachel: Well, my Toast to Joy is that we went to a quick lunch, my husband was going out of town again and we decided to take him to the airport so we stopped and had a quick lunch. And I noticed when we walked in and we were ordering, there was a table of three children and I just had a feeling that their mom was probably working or their parent was working. And then when we sat down, I realized that was the case. 

And I just really felt for that mom in that moment. Cuz there were times, when I had my esteemed career as the monogram at Pottery Barn Kids, and during busy times– which was basically back to school, monogramming a jillion backpacks and Christmas, a jillion stockings– I would have to bring my child to work at times cause it was the only option I had. So I really identified with her. 

And my husband said something, he was up and he just said something to the owner, like, “it's great that you let her bring her kids and do this.” And then I actually had some cash and I went up and just gave it to her. And I was like, “I'm sure there are times when you feel like you're, it's hard to keep all the balls in the air, but I just wanted to say, you're doing a great job.” 

Jasmine: Oh, I love that. 

Rachel: She was really appreciative and she told me I was the third mom to say something to her yesterday. And I loved it. Because moms know. I mean, when you gotta do something, you gotta do it. And that, that's just the way it is. We're doing the things, we're getting it done. It might not be the prettiest, it might not be the way we wanted it to look, but it's getting done. I just, I loved it. I love that I got to provide some encouragement, but more than that, I loved that other parents had provided encouragement. 

Amanda: That's real women. Like that is real women. The media wants to see us as cat-fighting and emotional and crazy, but that is real women right there. And you will never see that on CBS, a story of three women coming up and saying, “Good job, mom.”

Rachel: Yeah. I mean, right. So I really loved it. I really loved it. So Amanda, what is your Toast to Joy this week?

Amanda: All right, so I couldn't stand Rachel being in Hawaii, I was too jealous and had to go too.

Rachel: Haha.

Amanda: But I was actually in a different place. So my Toast to Joy is I got to join Casey in Hawaii, just the two of us, which was super nice and we got to go because he got it for a Winner’s Circle for his other job that he does. And my Toast to Joy is to Casey for, you know, doing two jobs. Jasmine, I know you do two jobs too. It's hard to do two jobs and man does he really do a great job with all of his jobs and I am very proud of him and I was very happy to get to celebrate in Hawaii of how amazing he is at his business job while he also has his political job too. So that is my Toast to Joy. 

Jasmine: Oh, I love it. 

Amanda: Thanks so much to everyone for joining us today. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a rating or review on your podcast app. We'll see you next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.